[H] ZvT how to stop Marine/Rauder/Hellbat/Medivac

On May 27 2013 10:41 Kyuhyuck wrote:
Hi im a masters zerg player that has a good idea on defending that sort of push. The unit composition i gois ling bane muta. First off if the terran doesnt have lots of marines you can completely shut down the push with just your mutas but usually that isnt thr case. You need to set your army into a position to attack from multiple angles using flanking manuevers snd such. You use your lings to wrap around the whole army and then use thE banelings to clean up the hellbats and marines and such. The lings shoukd be able to take care of the marauders. Then you use the mutas for cleaning up everythng leftover. If you stop this push with good 2-3 base saturation you should be ahead of your opponent and win the game.

On May 27 2013 12:29 ManiacTheZealot wrote:
This looks all in to me. The way MvP played it. It seems to hit around 11 to 12 minutes. Before that it's just drop harrass.

I guess the best way to handle it would be to put down a fourth hatchery and start making queens + ling/bane. You should try to get baneling speed quickly. Send the banelings after the hellbats and target the medivacs with the queens. Don't send your zerglings in until your banelings explode. Some forward positioned spine crawlers that you can transfuse would help a lot too.

I just don't think that roaches are very good against this. They do low dps and don't survive to well against marauder/hellbat. So the medivacs are just out healing the roaches. With Queen/ling/bane you'll be trading your army for his but he's got no upgrades coming no third and no mines so you're going to be ahead if you defend well.

On May 27 2013 12:54 TRpredator wrote:


It's true that roaches are low dps but in high number with ling support they're damage is sufficient to kill of units. Ling banes do very poorly if your opponent microes well. You need 4-5 banelings to kill hellbat and 6-7 to kill marauder, so does it mean you'll make 25+ banelings to kill him off and you won't be sure that he'll be dead?
And yes, it's an all-in as terran falls back in upgrades from you too far.

On May 27 2013 13:19 ManiacTheZealot wrote:


Tell that to stephano. He was unable to get enough roaches to defend. 25+ banelings? Banelings do aoe and spreading out hellbats is bad because they only have 2 range and move super slow. You can potentially kill them all with 4 to 5 although that's unlikely you certainly won't need 25. And you don't have to get the whole pack the queens and lings can clean up whats left. If he does try to spread out zerglings become much more effective.

Also keep in mind that his reinforcements are going to be so slow to arrive that you will easily out produce him if you manage to stabilize. It takes like an hour for a hellbat to walk across the map.

On May 27 2013 14:10 TRpredator wrote:


Stephano actually deflected initial attack(though with ling bane roach composition) but lost because he moved out too far and killed his banelings by suiciding into marauders and hellbats.(starstation)
Well if we assume that terran is bad than sure banelings will get good connections, however it's stupid to expect your opponent to be bad(which means he'll probably pre-split units and have some micro to draw his marines back). Yes, zerglings will be more effective, however terran doesn't realy care, since he has medvacks and hellbats to demolish them in few seconds.

On May 27 2013 14:51 ManiacTheZealot wrote:


You're not taking into account the fact that those roaches cost a lot and didn't do much.

On May 27 2013 14:57 MoonCricket wrote:
I think MVP pretty much proved Terran is IMBA at this point and they'll have to do something about Medivac speed and Hellbats, they can't delude themselves that a free speed updgrade for drop ships and a 100 mineral unit that hard counters every other races mineral unit is fair for long.

On May 27 2013 16:35 shreddedtheticz wrote:
Ive been also trying to find solutions to these midgame hellbat / bio pushes with or without a terran 3rd.

Zerglings are real weak against it

A idea im having ZvT is that midgame bio+hellbat attacks are really hard to stop with ling bling muta

Then I started to have a thought. Roaches deal 16 damage hydras deal 12 damage unupgraded so even if terran hits with a 3-3 timing at 16minutes it still only reduces hydra damage by 25% and roach damage by less, so I dont think the money is "wasted" even if the terran skips a midgame attack once he sees the roaches and hydras because their DPS output is still high even when the terran has 3-3 or 2-2 timings planned.

Roaches/Hydras have a problem of reaching their max effectiveness at around 10 of each. many Zergs will make the mistake of massing the two units and If you make any more than that ideal amount then the roaches become dead supply because only the FRONT 10 roaches are actualy attacking while the rest are bumbling around doing nothing. Same for hydras. But I thought about it and I think if you just get a few of each but stop before you get too much then you will still get the power the units provide (their decent DPS output at 4/5 range) and as long as you just dont make too many of them to the point where they start to get useless you can keep upgrading lings and go ling/bling muta with just a few roaches/hydras sprinkled in for midgame security

(pretty much late mutas, but faster roach/hydra)

In the end the cost is 350/100 for the warren / den, then 800/400 for 8 hydras and 750/250 for 10 roaches. I think the cost comes out to being pretty strong for what it provides you in terms of midgame power vs terran midgame pushes.

And if you are only being defensive, the fights are always on creep so you dont need to actually get upgrades for the roaches/hydras for them to be useful as a defensive force. So no money needs to be spent on actually upgrading the units.

The plan is, be purely defensive and never aggressive. Force the terran to attack you, otherwise you will have 3/3 ultras and lings at 20 minutes with mutas and your in a good position.

So the few roaches / hydras provide some midgame power allowing you to get to dem 3/3 ultras and muta/ling/bane more securely. Then lategame those few roaches and hydras still compliment your max army nicely by providing some ranged DPS, and then when they die you just dont replace them

Heres a replay where im trying out the concept and terran does a midgame bio+hellbat attack. I think it works well a few fights the terran has more supply than me but i still crush the army.

http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=283153

BIG THING TO REMEMBER, in the first fight the terran attacks me with hellbats / bio and I am in trouble. His army is bigger compared to mine and I win the fight because I engage with my army letting the roaches and hydras deal their DPS and I pull back most of my lings letting only a few lings engage. If you let all your lings go in they will all die to a few hellbat shots, but if you only send in some lings and pull back the rest your roach/hydra can deal their ranged DPS and then you pull back and reinforce with more lings when you need more lings to tank more shots.. So send in groups of lings at a time while hydra/roach does dps

Also, I realized since your only getting a few banelings and most of the fights are on creep you dont really need to upgrade baneling speed ive found the army compliments eachother nicely even with slow banelings

On May 27 2013 21:49 rustypipe wrote:
The biggest problem tho is the fact that your economy is getting disrupted constantly prior to the drop and even with 1-2 spores and a spine its still not enough, as 2 hellbats can clear a drone line in seconds even with static defence, so how do you defend the drops and the front line push at the same time. Its really stupid that 2 units can do that much damage in a drop as the terran can have 96% of his army at your front door while 4 units dropping from the sides at the same time killing all your drones??? is there any better way of stopping this? I even tried parking more queens around the mineral line / endges of the map but it didn't work

On May 27 2013 22:22 KuKKi wrote:


You have to see the drop coming into your base. The T, will use speed to drop into your mineral line.

You have to pull all your drones away, deal with the hellbat/medivac and get your drones back.

It doesn't matter how much static defense you have(unless its 3 spores), the T will do dmg when you don't pull your drones, but watch out, for his speed cooldown. He can drop with speed the hellbats in your retreating drones. So micro is necessary.

If you give him a timer to retreat(queens attack medivac/spores), you shouldn't lose any drones as long as you keep watching ur minimap/bases, pull drones when it comes, and use good micro.

If 2 100minerals units are supposed to force so much, is another topic :D

On May 27 2013 21:49 rustypipe wrote:


I will have to watch the replay when I get home, however your saying you will have enough hydra out to make a difference at 8:45min off 3 base?

The only way I can think to stop this is the second you scout it stop drone production once 2 base saturation is complete and just build mass roach baneling, as I can't see any other tech getting out in time otherwise otherwise.

The biggest problem tho is the fact that your economy is getting disrupted constantly prior to the drop and even with 1-2 spores and a spine its still not enough, as 2 hellbats can clear a drone line in seconds even with static defence, so how do you defend the drops and the front line push at the same time. Its really stupid that 2 units can do that much damage in a drop as the terran can have 96% of his army at your front door while 4 units dropping from the sides at the same time killing all your drones??? is there any better way of stopping this? I even tried parking more queens around the mineral line / endges of the map but it didn't work