EPT[H] ZvT how to stop Marine/Rauder/Hellbat/Medivac - Page 2
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ShamW0W
160 Posts
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rustypipe
Canada206 Posts
On May 27 2013 22:51 ShamW0W wrote: Roach/Hydra is your answer. Have an OL enter the Terran's production facilities around 5:15 to see if he's going early 3rd or for early pressure. Adjust your own build accordingly, in this case I'd recommend 1/1 roaches for the initial push while slowly adding in Hydras for DPS and Medivac sniping. In one of my replys i tried that, I got 1-1 roach really fast with banelings but the main push came just as I started getting hydra out, should I stop droning earlier and just have the 3rd hatchery there for larva and bline for roach hydra? | ||
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ShamW0W
160 Posts
I'd really just use pure Roach to crush a push like that then, once you feel some level of comfort, begin working Hydras into your composition. At that point you should have a solid 3-base economy while being able to deny the Terran's 3rd for a long time. Edit: After watching the games you generally lose before the drops even start. You don't scout to see what the Terran is doing and fall behind in workers every game before the drops start. Drone scout early, sacrifice an OL, and adjust accordingly. Building a random group of lings in the middle of the game 'just in case' is going to be inefficient more times than not. | ||
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Jerom
Netherlands588 Posts
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rikter
United States352 Posts
To stop it, I would say do an ovie flyby at the 8 minute mark or so, you should see a tl rax, r fact, naked port and 2 rax building. There will be no ebays, and T will have less scvs than usual because he cuts them at 7 or so. If you then rush tu mutas you might be able to do some damage before the marine count gets too high. I dont know how well this would work without the scv pull, probably not very well I think. | ||
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CB_XENOCIDE
1 Post
+ Show Spoiler + Each game goes the same way: Rev goes 14cc, you take a late third and get crushed by his superior econ. Game 1: Rev opens 14cc, and the only counter-pressure you apply is to run a few slings into a supply depot wall (which, by the way, Rev just barely gets down in time). @9:15: Rev has 48 harvesters to your 42 (zerg really needs to be in the lead in harvester count). You don't take your third until 7:00, (completes at 8:30, but you don't have it saturated until 9:50). The hellbat drop comes at 10:00 and kills a whopping 7 drones before the queens/slings/spines/spores clear them out. A pretty annoying loss, but certainly not game ending. @12:00 By the time the push comes Rev is 130 supply to your 110, though you do manage to hold, he's already far enough ahead in economy and army value that he's basically already won. @14:15 Your counter push doesn't really accomplish much, as Rev already has numerical superiority @16:30 final push comes 180 supply MMMh (1/1) vs 124 supply roach/swarm host (0/0) . Game 2: Rev opens 14CC again, you don't take your third until 6:45, and you don't even start mining from it until 9:30. You take 4 gas before mining at the third. The hellbat drop reaches you at 9:40, and again, kills 7 drones before you clean it up. Then you go a little overboard with tech--centrifugal hook AND glial recon AND double EVO upgrades AND a spire. When Rev's first big push reaches you, he already has a supply lead of 140 vs 100. Game 3: Rev opens 14cc. You take a fast third a 5:45, and at 8:00 you start mining from it with only 4 drones, and you keep mining from it with only 4 drones until 9:50. Then a hellbat drop comes at 9:30 and kills 6 drones. Then the Rev pushes 124 supply to your 92 and wins. Game 4: You take a fast third at 5:50, which completes at 7:30, which you start mining from at 11:20. Meanwhile, you broke your habit of morphing a spine crawler in your main, and consequently lost 18 drones instead of the usual 7. Then you obliterate a large portion of the terran army at the 12min push with roach/baneling, but you don't have the economy to keep up with Rev's reinforcement. If the terran is going 14cc you really need to get your own third saturated fast. It's like psychologically you're expecting a 1base all in even though he's gone 14cc. You should consider adding a drone scout in your build just to look for 14cc, considering you gave up four consecutive games to it. Your queen+spine+spore in each base seems to be working to stop the drops, and game 4 engagement shows that roach/baneling can indeed effectively counter bio/hellbat if you're patient and take the fight on creep. | ||
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rustypipe
Canada206 Posts
On May 28 2013 12:28 CB_XENOCIDE wrote: The bottom line is that you give the terran an economic lead in each of the games, even without considering losses to hellbat drops. + Show Spoiler + Each game goes the same way: Rev goes 14cc, you take a late third and get crushed by his superior econ. Game 1: Rev opens 14cc, and the only counter-pressure you apply is to run a few slings into a supply depot wall (which, by the way, Rev just barely gets down in time). @9:15: Rev has 48 harvesters to your 42 (zerg really needs to be in the lead in harvester count). You don't take your third until 7:00, (completes at 8:30, but you don't have it saturated until 9:50). The hellbat drop comes at 10:00 and kills a whopping 7 drones before the queens/slings/spines/spores clear them out. A pretty annoying loss, but certainly not game ending. @12:00 By the time the push comes Rev is 130 supply to your 110, though you do manage to hold, he's already far enough ahead in economy and army value that he's basically already won. @14:15 Your counter push doesn't really accomplish much, as Rev already has numerical superiority @16:30 final push comes 180 supply MMMh (1/1) vs 124 supply roach/swarm host (0/0) . Game 2: Rev opens 14CC again, you don't take your third until 6:45, and you don't even start mining from it until 9:30. You take 4 gas before mining at the third. The hellbat drop reaches you at 9:40, and again, kills 7 drones before you clean it up. Then you go a little overboard with tech--centrifugal hook AND glial recon AND double EVO upgrades AND a spire. When Rev's first big push reaches you, he already has a supply lead of 140 vs 100. Game 3: Rev opens 14cc. You take a fast third a 5:45, and at 8:00 you start mining from it with only 4 drones, and you keep mining from it with only 4 drones until 9:50. Then a hellbat drop comes at 9:30 and kills 6 drones. Then the Rev pushes 124 supply to your 92 and wins. Game 4: You take a fast third at 5:50, which completes at 7:30, which you start mining from at 11:20. Meanwhile, you broke your habit of morphing a spine crawler in your main, and consequently lost 18 drones instead of the usual 7. Then you obliterate a large portion of the terran army at the 12min push with roach/baneling, but you don't have the economy to keep up with Rev's reinforcement. If the terran is going 14cc you really need to get your own third saturated fast. It's like psychologically you're expecting a 1base all in even though he's gone 14cc. You should consider adding a drone scout in your build just to look for 14cc, considering you gave up four consecutive games to it. Your queen+spine+spore in each base seems to be working to stop the drops, and game 4 engagement shows that roach/baneling can indeed effectively counter bio/hellbat if you're patient and take the fight on creep. Thanks for the detailed response, Well when we where practicing he did the hellion/rauder/marine/medivac all-in in the first game and i was playing my standard opening which got crushed, after which I didn't know the proper response so the next 3 games where to try and stop it. I knew he would do the exact same build as I told him to do it over and over again till I found a solution. However no matter what I tried i couldn't stop it as the hellion drops really disrupt my droning time, however I guess I could take a faster 3rd and try to saturate it by 8min then just build all units if I spot this all in to try and stop it. I still feel that roach, ling, bane can't cost efficiently stop this and you will eventually just fall behind. He wasn't even pulling SCV's like MVP did, which would of made matters much worse I'm gong to try the following tonight if possible. Take a fast 3rd and go for really fast ling muta, use the muta to snip early drops / hellbats and marines, use lings to stop re-enforments while muta is clearing ling destroying units and then swarm with lings / banes if possible. Or once I spot this just make mass queen roach and build up energy on queens for transfuses. Use the queens to try and snipe the medivacs while the roach target fire the hellbats. Any further advice would still be greatly appreciated or even a VOD or replay of someone stopping this as I see someone has now posted the exact build on TL so I fear i will see this non-stop on ladder now as its stupid easy to execute | ||
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Targe
United Kingdom14103 Posts
On May 27 2013 14:57 MoonCricket wrote: I think MVP pretty much proved Terran is IMBA at this point and they'll have to do something about Medivac speed and Hellbats, they can't delude themselves that a free speed updgrade for drop ships and a 100 mineral unit that hard counters every other races mineral unit is fair for long. What? So much delusion in this comment. To stop hellbat drops just kill the medivac. | ||
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Swiipii
2195 Posts
Roach warren @7 mins , 1 spore per base, bring all your queens to snipe the medivac as soon as you spot it (micro your drones off the mineral line) . - Don't overproduce units to deal with the drops (3-4 roaches and a few lings are enough) . - Baneling nest BEFORE lair . - Few drones at third When the Terran decides to attack add a few roaches and produce lings like a mad man , you need a lot of banelings to deal with the hellbats and the marines (they are the ones dealing the "real" dps) . blade5555 made a nice VOD about how to deal with hellbats/marine/marauder timings (dunno for the medivacs) , might want to check it out . During WCS Stephano would have hold Mvp's build (game 4) if he didn't take that one wierd engagement (he didn't realize Mvp had no SCV's reamining I think) . | ||
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BlakeKustard
United States11 Posts
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Crugio
Australia45 Posts
On May 29 2013 01:03 Swiipii wrote: blade5555 made a nice VOD about how to deal with hellbats/marine/marauder timings (dunno for the medivacs) , might want to check it out . Can you link this VOD please? Blade55555 has quite alot of YouTube videos but some are not titled/described very well. Closest one in Hellbat drops, but that is different to say mass Marine/Marauder/Hellbat off two bases. EDIT: I think part of the issue here is that our T1.5 "counter" unit: Banelings trade very inefficiently with Hellbats. This is a pure trade scenario, so assumes supply is irrelevant. Hellbat: 135 health, 100min cost Baneling: Damage vs light 35, 50 minerals, 25 gas each To kill a Hellbat takes 4 banelings! Therefore if you connect 4 baneling to: 1 Hellbat: 100min vs 200min/100gas 2 Hellbat: 200min vs 200min/100gas 3 Hellbat: 300min vs 200min/100gas 4 Hellbat: 400min vs 200min/100gas Given the the game value of gas would be more then minerals, just to break even each baneling MUST connect to 3-4 Hellbats. Given the size of the Hellbat is similar to a Marauder, I don't think that trading is even feasible. Then if behind these Hellbats, Terran stacks Marauders (range 6) to deal with any attempt at Roaches (range 3). The only threat would be T2 mutas? But throw in a some Marines and that is easily dealt with especially since muta count will be low at this time. If fact, I'm stumped on this one. Maybe Lots of Queens? Spines? | ||
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Chrono000
Korea (South)358 Posts
1. it is very very difficult for zerg early-mid game to trade evenly. 2. predicting what what comes out is near irrelevant because each strategy doesn't trade evenly. (mines, quick vacs, hellbats) 3. holding an economic lead is even more important now cause u are barely going to be trading evenly anymore. there is a problem here because from my experience its even harder to make a comeback now... | ||
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rustypipe
Canada206 Posts
On May 30 2013 16:07 Chrono000 wrote: after reading the thread im pretty convinced of what is going on here. 1. it is very very difficult for zerg early-mid game to trade evenly. 2. predicting what what comes out is near irrelevant because each strategy doesn't trade evenly. (mines, quick vacs, hellbats) 3. holding an economic lead is even more important now cause u are barely going to be trading evenly anymore. there is a problem here because from my experience its even harder to make a comeback now... Sadly that pretty much sums up ZvT in a nutshell  and this build is still stupid effective I also don't see Blizzard fixing this anytime soon as the last few update notes on the test servers / maps are not doing anything and just messing around with cheap burrow research | ||
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Sissors
1395 Posts
And really if I were you I would start finding creative ways to deal with it, considering compared to terran zerg is more represented on ladder and really not doing worse in pro tournaments, I wouldn't be holding your breath for a ZvT boost. | ||
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WillS
61 Posts
This may actually just be the fact that you were slightly tense about facing this strategy in the first place. I do have a question though, is there a reason why you wait so long after getting 1-1 to get 2-2/2-1? | ||
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Lock0n
United Kingdom184 Posts
To survive this, zerg has to make some sacrifices - pull drones from 3rd and just sack the 3rd. Make macro hatch at main/nat if not already done. make a few spines outside nat and just defend there. The just make lings and roachs off 2 base whilst teching to either infestors and mutas and upgrading to 2-2, whilst looking to flank and surround, can threaten counterattack with nydus, but main aim is to keep army alive. If Zerg drones up to 80 and tries to keep their 3rd of course they will die. Terran sacrifices a lot with this all in and will have poor upgrades, no tanks, no widow mines, limited production, and their 3rd will be incredibly late unless they decide to abandon the aggression. | ||
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rustypipe
Canada206 Posts
On May 31 2013 04:30 Sissors wrote: I have pretty much never seen a zerg trade evenly against a 2-base protos push, however that doesn't stop zerg from beating them: If you simply got a better economy there is no need to trade evenly. And really if I were you I would start finding creative ways to deal with it, considering compared to terran zerg is more represented on ladder and really not doing worse in pro tournaments, I wouldn't be holding your breath for a ZvT boost. The only reason why Zerg is holding their own on ladder / tournaments is because of the players behind them. Just because a select few are god like monsters in SC doesn't mean its even. If they where playing any other race other then Zerg i'm sure the same devastation would follow. The difference between ZvT and ZvP two base push is the following: 1.) The 2 base push can typically be spotted pretty easily, opposed to terran, IE Overlord sack is usually more useful and actually spots the tech. Protoss's tech is pretty straight forward with its buildings. 2.) Even tho the zerg doesn't trade effectively or in a 1-1 fashion it is STILL more cost effective then hellbats and or mines / medivacs 3.) Terran has a PLETHORA of ways to horas zerg early game to hinder zerg economy so when the 9-11min push does come it is that much more devastating ie.) Reaper>Hellbat>8:30ish drop timing> 11-12 min 2-2 timing push with mines 4.) Terran also have the most cost effecient units in the game. You tell me one protoss unit that compares to the hellbat and or mine and can do the same kind of damage. 2 hellbats in a speedvac can wipe out entire mineral lines if micro'ed well very fast! not even DT's kill of a mineral line like that 5,) If protoss really does do the 9min immortal centry push to finish off the game and it fails with zerg holding their 3rd thats GG for the protoss anyhow in most cases as they have cut probes and invested so heavily to make the timing work. However terran has to invest half that cost to do equal amount of damage I'm not saying they are unbeatable, just saying not everyone playing SC2 HOTS is Stephano's and lifes with sick game mechanics that can make up for the stupidity of Terrans cost efficiency Also this thread was created for assistance in coming up with a creative way to deal with things like this, and I was simply replying to someone who extrapolated what the ZvT situation is truely like. However I thank you for the stunning revelation on how to deal with this problem: "And really if I were you I would start finding creative ways to deal with it" | ||
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rustypipe
Canada206 Posts
On May 31 2013 04:52 WillS wrote: Rustypipe I don't think there is a lot holding you back from defending that. Just because you're slightly behind the Terran in supply before the drops come in each case. I'm not sure how you would go about solving that if i'm honest with you but it's somewhere to start looking at least. This may actually just be the fact that you were slightly tense about facing this strategy in the first place. I do have a question though, is there a reason why you wait so long after getting 1-1 to get 2-2/2-1? No that was just sloppy play, I was hammering out games vs the same build to try and stop it, so I knew the time his medviac would drop would come every time. It was just bad response time trying to deal with everything else. Once the drops started coming I was trying to micro my drones from dieing and get them back mining The problem I have with the hellbat drops that start around 8:30 is even when I micro properly its not the drone deaths that hurt its the lack of mining while you deal with the medivac, this hurts the econ very badly as the main push comes around 11min. I've unforantly haven't ran across it again on ladder and haven't had the chance to hit up RC again for some practice vs this build, but i will try to get the 3rd saturated faster and hold with 1-1 roaches. I don't think banes will be cost effective enough as it stretches the gas to far in that short time. Long and short of it is, I still don't have a solid answer to this build RC does have the build / timings down pat and is a good upper masters player so his mechanics are probably slightly better then mine, however if I manage to stop this cost effectively I will post my findings I appreciated the response tho as I am actively working on trying to spot / stop this build when I see it | ||
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MoonCricket
222 Posts
On May 29 2013 00:50 Targe wrote: What? So much delusion in this comment. To stop hellbat drops just kill the medivac. More like dead on, after watching the GSL games it seems pretty clear TvZ is forcing Z to go back to Hatchery based aggression to hold off the Medivac/Hellbat drops, "kill the medivac" is easier said than done before Hydralisks are on the board. It's obvious the 4 Queen, Speed Ling defenses are not working, if the 3-0 into 3-4 match for Innovation vs Soulkey is any indication. Any build order short of Roaches can't hold off Hellbat drops cost efficiently, it's really that simple. @OP Being aggressive with 2 base Roach Baneling pressure will definitely work, I'm still having a lot of difficulties with 3 Hatch before Pool or 2 Queen into 3rd because of the delayed gas timings, but there should be a solution in there that works if you can nail down the gas timing or produce 3 Queens at a time to hold ground, spread creep and push out Medivacs. The big thing I think is to not over react to 1xReaper, 2xHellion by getting multiple Queens and Ling speed too early. | ||
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StatixEx
United Kingdom779 Posts
they drop with a couple of those hellbats and you take significant damage to your econ, and usually at the time of the game where everything is a mess anyway (if they do it early it can ruin you as well) every says put down spines, put down spores . . .well i saw moonglade mass do this like literally 5 or 6 spores asround each baseand its DIDNT MATTER. The hellbats got in did the damage. At the time i thought it was good . . .but in the meantime moons standing army wasnt that big and the other guys tanks marauders thors and hellbats part of their main army rolled him, after he killed it twice . .. the terran just kept coming. I do believe mutalisks are the way to go but you just cant seem to get enough of them, they directly counter the hellbats, tanks and marauders and so some extent with mboxing thors . . .but its the handfull of fucking marines which kill them, the maraduers they produce stop the banes and if you try to focus with the mutas the thor splash rapes the mutas and the lings cant get the surround they need and roaches are good but they dont seem to do the dps you need. SO Vipers. Blinding cloud. Ive been having a bit of success with this but its the whole thing of having the econ to support it they can basically harass for free and we cant get into their lines really, and if we do with the lisks 300m of marines. and 3 turrets is enough where we have spent all of our gas and usually most of the minerals to get numbers up enough to do actual damage. Yes i hear you man, but i dont think its the comp it seems to be the remax of the terran which is the problem, they seem to be able to produce just as much shit at us which by default is way more cost efficient] here are some of my reps where i won (it is getting to that point where i want to play as terran just to do this) Now im not a masters player but i watch a hell of a lot of streams and everyone is having an issue with this to a point, but you have to nail it exactly right and you arent allowed to make mistakes, a-moving WILL get you killed 1. BC the tanks first and a thors (need 5 vipers fully charged ive found) 2 A-move your army into their just to get close to exvery thing is fighting and magic box 1 thor leave these lisks 3 - MACRO MORE ARMY, roaches may be good as they live longer or lings to morph purely to banes 4. select hydras and target thors 5- a-move everything closer and send the remaining viper energy on the tanks now this doesnt always work but ive been satisfied to see a few marauders and a couple of tanks left over where another round of lings cleans it up BUT they come at you with a very similar sized push . . .and i cant stop that usually. Im really really trying to find a way to beat this at my skill level and im prepared to sit and practice with someone if they want to frind me, but which terran wants to give this strangle hold up! http://sc2replaystats.com/replay/41600 | ||
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