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Hey,
I don't know how the hell your supposed to stop this and now that it was used with such good effectiveness vs Stephano I'm sure I will see it more and more on the ladder  It's to the point I just want to quit SC2 as I'm so sick of all the bs that ZvT has to offer and I refuse to switch to T,
Anyhow getting on with it, I don't understand how to stop this, attached are 4 replays but the drops essentially start at around 8:30-8:45 and even if he doesn't do any damage you are FORCED to pull your drones as even if you have a spine / spore tower the amount of drones lost if you don't isn't acceptable. Further more you can't deal with drops and the frontal push when it comes at around 9:30 to kill your 3rd or out right win the game.
Aside from an early all in i can't seem to stop this. In most normal cases you wont' know he is going hellbats for sure till the first one pops out in which case then you can switch to roach if you didn't have your den down yet, or make some roaches if you did, but even still I tried lings, bane, roach ling bane, infestors, Sh, and hydra and nothing seems to stop this.
Any help would be greatly appreciated
I know your supposed to put down what you think you did wrong but since the drops prevent so much mining time i'm not even sure. other then possibly a little better injects or creep spread I can't see it and I don't think either of those would matter
http://drop.sc/338033
http://drop.sc/338034
http://drop.sc/338035
http://drop.sc/338036
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Hi im a masters zerg player that has a good idea on defending that sort of push. The unit composition i gois ling bane muta. First off if the terran doesnt have lots of marines you can completely shut down the push with just your mutas but usually that isnt thr case. You need to set your army into a position to attack from multiple angles using flanking manuevers snd such. You use your lings to wrap around the whole army and then use thE banelings to clean up the hellbats and marines and such. The lings shoukd be able to take care of the marauders. Then you use the mutas for cleaning up everythng leftover. If you stop this push with good 2-3 base saturation you should be ahead of your opponent and win the game.
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On May 27 2013 10:41 Kyuhyuck wrote:
Hi im a masters zerg player that has a good idea on defending that sort of push. The unit composition i gois ling bane muta. First off if the terran doesnt have lots of marines you can completely shut down the push with just your mutas but usually that isnt thr case. You need to set your army into a position to attack from multiple angles using flanking manuevers snd such. You use your lings to wrap around the whole army and then use thE banelings to clean up the hellbats and marines and such. The lings shoukd be able to take care of the marauders. Then you use the mutas for cleaning up everythng leftover. If you stop this push with good 2-3 base saturation you should be ahead of your opponent and win the game.
I can't see how you would have muta out in time unless you stayed on 2 base as the attacks start at 8:30-8:45, if you 3 base muta is usally out around 9 min if your lucky and the flock isn't very large at that point usally. Be it this is good advice I can't see how you would get the timing out fast enough. Or do you mean once you see the first hell bat get 2 base saturation up and b-line to muta even if you dropped a 3rd at the normal time of 6-7 min
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Russian Federation101 Posts
Mutas won't work as you'll die before they will appear.
The best choice is ling roaches, since roaches can tank more damage from hellbat that any other unit from T1. I would've made at least as twice more roaches than opponent has marauders. And basically micro is the same as it was before( you would like to focus down hellbats with roaches and make surrounds with lings). As soon as lings die you back off with roaches waiting for a new wave of lings to come.
Banelings are highly ineffective unless you have speed for them.
Static defense can be good vs hellbats but it'll be a waste in early game as you can defend with roaches and queens and making spines won't help much to defend this push as marauders will kill them in a flash.
Most annoying part would be his increasing number of medvacks so if possible keep 1-2 queens to focus them down.
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This looks all in to me. The way MvP played it. It seems to hit around 11 to 12 minutes. Before that it's just drop harrass.
I guess the best way to handle it would be to put down a fourth hatchery and start making queens + ling/bane. You should try to get baneling speed quickly. Send the banelings after the hellbats and target the medivacs with the queens. Don't send your zerglings in until your banelings explode. Some forward positioned spine crawlers that you can transfuse would help a lot too.
I just don't think that roaches are very good against this. They do low dps and don't survive to well against marauder/hellbat. So the medivacs are just out healing the roaches. With Queen/ling/bane you'll be trading your army for his but he's got no upgrades coming no third and no mines so you're going to be ahead if you defend well.
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Russian Federation101 Posts
On May 27 2013 12:29 ManiacTheZealot wrote:
This looks all in to me. The way MvP played it. It seems to hit around 11 to 12 minutes. Before that it's just drop harrass.
I guess the best way to handle it would be to put down a fourth hatchery and start making queens + ling/bane. You should try to get baneling speed quickly. Send the banelings after the hellbats and target the medivacs with the queens. Don't send your zerglings in until your banelings explode. Some forward positioned spine crawlers that you can transfuse would help a lot too.
I just don't think that roaches are very good against this. They do low dps and don't survive to well against marauder/hellbat. So the medivacs are just out healing the roaches. With Queen/ling/bane you'll be trading your army for his but he's got no upgrades coming no third and no mines so you're going to be ahead if you defend well.
It's true that roaches are low dps but in high number with ling support they're damage is sufficient to kill of units. Ling banes do very poorly if your opponent microes well. You need 4-5 banelings to kill hellbat and 6-7 to kill marauder, so does it mean you'll make 25+ banelings to kill him off and you won't be sure that he'll be dead?
And yes, it's an all-in as terran falls back in upgrades from you too far.
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On May 27 2013 12:54 TRpredator wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2013 12:29 ManiacTheZealot wrote:
This looks all in to me. The way MvP played it. It seems to hit around 11 to 12 minutes. Before that it's just drop harrass.
I guess the best way to handle it would be to put down a fourth hatchery and start making queens + ling/bane. You should try to get baneling speed quickly. Send the banelings after the hellbats and target the medivacs with the queens. Don't send your zerglings in until your banelings explode. Some forward positioned spine crawlers that you can transfuse would help a lot too.
I just don't think that roaches are very good against this. They do low dps and don't survive to well against marauder/hellbat. So the medivacs are just out healing the roaches. With Queen/ling/bane you'll be trading your army for his but he's got no upgrades coming no third and no mines so you're going to be ahead if you defend well. It's true that roaches are low dps but in high number with ling support they're damage is sufficient to kill of units. Ling banes do very poorly if your opponent microes well. You need 4-5 banelings to kill hellbat and 6-7 to kill marauder, so does it mean you'll make 25+ banelings to kill him off and you won't be sure that he'll be dead? And yes, it's an all-in as terran falls back in upgrades from you too far.
Tell that to stephano. He was unable to get enough roaches to defend. 25+ banelings? Banelings do aoe and spreading out hellbats is bad because they only have 2 range and move super slow. You can potentially kill them all with 4 to 5 although that's unlikely you certainly won't need 25. And you don't have to get the whole pack the queens and lings can clean up whats left. If he does try to spread out zerglings become much more effective.
Also keep in mind that his reinforcements are going to be so slow to arrive that you will easily out produce him if you manage to stabilize. It takes like an hour for a hellbat to walk across the map.
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Russian Federation101 Posts
On May 27 2013 13:19 ManiacTheZealot wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2013 12:54 TRpredator wrote:On May 27 2013 12:29 ManiacTheZealot wrote:
This looks all in to me. The way MvP played it. It seems to hit around 11 to 12 minutes. Before that it's just drop harrass.
I guess the best way to handle it would be to put down a fourth hatchery and start making queens + ling/bane. You should try to get baneling speed quickly. Send the banelings after the hellbats and target the medivacs with the queens. Don't send your zerglings in until your banelings explode. Some forward positioned spine crawlers that you can transfuse would help a lot too.
I just don't think that roaches are very good against this. They do low dps and don't survive to well against marauder/hellbat. So the medivacs are just out healing the roaches. With Queen/ling/bane you'll be trading your army for his but he's got no upgrades coming no third and no mines so you're going to be ahead if you defend well. It's true that roaches are low dps but in high number with ling support they're damage is sufficient to kill of units. Ling banes do very poorly if your opponent microes well. You need 4-5 banelings to kill hellbat and 6-7 to kill marauder, so does it mean you'll make 25+ banelings to kill him off and you won't be sure that he'll be dead? And yes, it's an all-in as terran falls back in upgrades from you too far. Tell that to stephano. He was unable to get enough roaches to defend. 25+ banelings? Banelings do aoe and spreading out hellbats is bad because they only have 2 range and move super slow. You can potentially kill them all with 4 to 5 although that's unlikely you certainly won't need 25. And you don't have to get the whole pack the queens and lings can clean up whats left. If he does try to spread out zerglings become much more effective. Also keep in mind that his reinforcements are going to be so slow to arrive that you will easily out produce him if you manage to stabilize. It takes like an hour for a hellbat to walk across the map.
Stephano actually deflected initial attack(though with ling bane roach composition) but lost because he moved out too far and killed his banelings by suiciding into marauders and hellbats.(starstation)
Well if we assume that terran is bad than sure banelings will get good connections, however it's stupid to expect your opponent to be bad(which means he'll probably pre-split units and have some micro to draw his marines back). Yes, zerglings will be more effective, however terran doesn't realy care, since he has medvacks and hellbats to demolish them in few seconds.
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in a way, it's similar to marauder hellion all in for WoL except now it comes with hellbat drops and then follow up with a strong timing attack and less all in.
the power of this build is to abuse that insanely cost efficient of marauder medivac and hellbats. the problem of being behind on upgrades are kinda solved by having units that don't relies too heavily on upgrades, such as mauarders supported by hellbats and the widow mines follow up while the zerg will have less gas for lair tech units when he is defending with banelings and roaches and not able to drone.
so the best way is really just to use roach ling baneling to deal with the inital push as best as possible and then react to whatever the terran decides to do next
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On May 27 2013 14:10 TRpredator wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2013 13:19 ManiacTheZealot wrote:On May 27 2013 12:54 TRpredator wrote:On May 27 2013 12:29 ManiacTheZealot wrote:
This looks all in to me. The way MvP played it. It seems to hit around 11 to 12 minutes. Before that it's just drop harrass.
I guess the best way to handle it would be to put down a fourth hatchery and start making queens + ling/bane. You should try to get baneling speed quickly. Send the banelings after the hellbats and target the medivacs with the queens. Don't send your zerglings in until your banelings explode. Some forward positioned spine crawlers that you can transfuse would help a lot too.
I just don't think that roaches are very good against this. They do low dps and don't survive to well against marauder/hellbat. So the medivacs are just out healing the roaches. With Queen/ling/bane you'll be trading your army for his but he's got no upgrades coming no third and no mines so you're going to be ahead if you defend well. It's true that roaches are low dps but in high number with ling support they're damage is sufficient to kill of units. Ling banes do very poorly if your opponent microes well. You need 4-5 banelings to kill hellbat and 6-7 to kill marauder, so does it mean you'll make 25+ banelings to kill him off and you won't be sure that he'll be dead? And yes, it's an all-in as terran falls back in upgrades from you too far. Tell that to stephano. He was unable to get enough roaches to defend. 25+ banelings? Banelings do aoe and spreading out hellbats is bad because they only have 2 range and move super slow. You can potentially kill them all with 4 to 5 although that's unlikely you certainly won't need 25. And you don't have to get the whole pack the queens and lings can clean up whats left. If he does try to spread out zerglings become much more effective. Also keep in mind that his reinforcements are going to be so slow to arrive that you will easily out produce him if you manage to stabilize. It takes like an hour for a hellbat to walk across the map. Stephano actually deflected initial attack(though with ling bane roach composition) but lost because he moved out too far and killed his banelings by suiciding into marauders and hellbats.(starstation) Well if we assume that terran is bad than sure banelings will get good connections, however it's stupid to expect your opponent to be bad(which means he'll probably pre-split units and have some micro to draw his marines back). Yes, zerglings will be more effective, however terran doesn't realy care, since he has medvacks and hellbats to demolish them in few seconds.
You're not taking into account the fact that those roaches cost a lot and didn't do much.
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I don't think Zerg can reach the mid-game thru' an economic opening like 4 Queen so it's better to 8 Roach Rush with Zergling speed and go all-in with a Baneling follow up off of two bases until Blizzard patches Hellbats, otherwise 3 Hatch before Pool, non-stop Queen production and Lair with your first 100 gas might work as Queens are pretty much the only units that can match Hellbats and Marauders in cost efficiency on th ground and they can take out Medivac support.
I think MVP pretty much proved Terran is IMBA at this point and they'll have to do something about Medivac speed and Hellbats, they can't delude themselves that a free speed updgrade for drop ships and a 100 mineral unit that hard counters every other races mineral unit is fair for long.
User was warned for this post
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just go roach-bane-queen of your 3 hatch vs this, stephano actually won the game where mvp (perfectly executed all-in) did this on star station but started to drone and take fights of creep.
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I think zerg should go roach/hydra if he scouts this build.
Roach/hydra is always strong vs hellbat/bio composition with delayed upgrades anyway.
Hydras will destroy medivac, which will stop this all-in even if the terran has mules.
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Russian Federation101 Posts
On May 27 2013 14:51 ManiacTheZealot wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2013 14:10 TRpredator wrote:On May 27 2013 13:19 ManiacTheZealot wrote:On May 27 2013 12:54 TRpredator wrote:On May 27 2013 12:29 ManiacTheZealot wrote:
This looks all in to me. The way MvP played it. It seems to hit around 11 to 12 minutes. Before that it's just drop harrass.
I guess the best way to handle it would be to put down a fourth hatchery and start making queens + ling/bane. You should try to get baneling speed quickly. Send the banelings after the hellbats and target the medivacs with the queens. Don't send your zerglings in until your banelings explode. Some forward positioned spine crawlers that you can transfuse would help a lot too.
I just don't think that roaches are very good against this. They do low dps and don't survive to well against marauder/hellbat. So the medivacs are just out healing the roaches. With Queen/ling/bane you'll be trading your army for his but he's got no upgrades coming no third and no mines so you're going to be ahead if you defend well. It's true that roaches are low dps but in high number with ling support they're damage is sufficient to kill of units. Ling banes do very poorly if your opponent microes well. You need 4-5 banelings to kill hellbat and 6-7 to kill marauder, so does it mean you'll make 25+ banelings to kill him off and you won't be sure that he'll be dead? And yes, it's an all-in as terran falls back in upgrades from you too far. Tell that to stephano. He was unable to get enough roaches to defend. 25+ banelings? Banelings do aoe and spreading out hellbats is bad because they only have 2 range and move super slow. You can potentially kill them all with 4 to 5 although that's unlikely you certainly won't need 25. And you don't have to get the whole pack the queens and lings can clean up whats left. If he does try to spread out zerglings become much more effective. Also keep in mind that his reinforcements are going to be so slow to arrive that you will easily out produce him if you manage to stabilize. It takes like an hour for a hellbat to walk across the map. Stephano actually deflected initial attack(though with ling bane roach composition) but lost because he moved out too far and killed his banelings by suiciding into marauders and hellbats.(starstation) Well if we assume that terran is bad than sure banelings will get good connections, however it's stupid to expect your opponent to be bad(which means he'll probably pre-split units and have some micro to draw his marines back). Yes, zerglings will be more effective, however terran doesn't realy care, since he has medvacks and hellbats to demolish them in few seconds. You're not taking into account the fact that those roaches cost a lot and didn't do much.
Hmm baneling=50 min and 25 gas roach=75 min and 25 gas (not much of a difference if you ask me) Plus roaches don't do much in small numbers and he had like 5-6 of them but they survived through most of the battles, so not sure what you're talking about.
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Ive been also trying to find solutions to these midgame hellbat / bio pushes with or without a terran 3rd.
Zerglings are real weak against it
A idea im having ZvT is that midgame bio+hellbat attacks are really hard to stop with ling bling muta
Then I started to have a thought. Roaches deal 16 damage hydras deal 12 damage unupgraded so even if terran hits with a 3-3 timing at 16minutes it still only reduces hydra damage by 25% and roach damage by less, so I dont think the money is "wasted" even if the terran skips a midgame attack once he sees the roaches and hydras because their DPS output is still high even when the terran has 3-3 or 2-2 timings planned.
Roaches/Hydras have a problem of reaching their max effectiveness at around 10 of each. many Zergs will make the mistake of massing the two units and If you make any more than that ideal amount then the roaches become dead supply because only the FRONT 10 roaches are actualy attacking while the rest are bumbling around doing nothing. Same for hydras. But I thought about it and I think if you just get a few of each but stop before you get too much then you will still get the power the units provide (their decent DPS output at 4/5 range) and as long as you just dont make too many of them to the point where they start to get useless you can keep upgrading lings and go ling/bling muta with just a few roaches/hydras sprinkled in for midgame security
(pretty much late mutas, but faster roach/hydra)
In the end the cost is 350/100 for the warren / den, then 800/400 for 8 hydras and 750/250 for 10 roaches. I think the cost comes out to being pretty strong for what it provides you in terms of midgame power vs terran midgame pushes.
And if you are only being defensive, the fights are always on creep so you dont need to actually get upgrades for the roaches/hydras for them to be useful as a defensive force. So no money needs to be spent on actually upgrading the units.
The plan is, be purely defensive and never aggressive. Force the terran to attack you, otherwise you will have 3/3 ultras and lings at 20 minutes with mutas and your in a good position.
So the few roaches / hydras provide some midgame power allowing you to get to dem 3/3 ultras and muta/ling/bane more securely. Then lategame those few roaches and hydras still compliment your max army nicely by providing some ranged DPS, and then when they die you just dont replace them
Heres a replay where im trying out the concept and terran does a midgame bio+hellbat attack. I think it works well a few fights the terran has more supply than me but i still crush the army.
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=283153
BIG THING TO REMEMBER, in the first fight the terran attacks me with hellbats / bio and I am in trouble. His army is bigger compared to mine and I win the fight because I engage with my army letting the roaches and hydras deal their DPS and I pull back most of my lings letting only a few lings engage. If you let all your lings go in they will all die to a few hellbat shots, but if you only send in some lings and pull back the rest your roach/hydra can deal their ranged DPS and then you pull back and reinforce with more lings when you need more lings to tank more shots.. So send in groups of lings at a time while hydra/roach does dps
Also, I realized since your only getting a few banelings and most of the fights are on creep you dont really need to upgrade baneling speed ive found the army compliments eachother nicely even with slow banelings
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On May 27 2013 14:57 MoonCricket wrote:
I think MVP pretty much proved Terran is IMBA at this point and they'll have to do something about Medivac speed and Hellbats, they can't delude themselves that a free speed updgrade for drop ships and a 100 mineral unit that hard counters every other races mineral unit is fair for long.
3 out of 5 players who proceeded to global WCS were zerg: Zerg complains it is imbalanced -_-.
Anyway from bit related terran PoV, my main strat vs zerg is an early marauder, marine, hellbat push. Medivacs come a bit later, so my push hits a bit earlier and has marines, but lacks healing:
Speedling defenses: Woohoo, free win. Especially funny when they think a two spines + two queens for transfusions are going to delay it.
Banelings: Still win the majority, but alot harder. Especially important to have good creep spread. The terran has no chance to clear out creep, so he will be fighting on creep. And flank him from behind preferably.
Mutas: If fast mutas they can be out roughly in time. Yes you will take horrible damage, but at the same time the terran has little muta defense.
Roaches: My largest problem, simply from 3 base mass roaches. To this I lose the majority of the time. And yeah I try to add more marauders when I scout that.
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On May 27 2013 16:35 shreddedtheticz wrote:Ive been also trying to find solutions to these midgame hellbat / bio pushes with or without a terran 3rd. Zerglings are real weak against it A idea im having ZvT is that midgame bio+hellbat attacks are really hard to stop with ling bling muta Then I started to have a thought. Roaches deal 16 damage hydras deal 12 damage unupgraded so even if terran hits with a 3-3 timing at 16minutes it still only reduces hydra damage by 25% and roach damage by less, so I dont think the money is "wasted" even if the terran skips a midgame attack once he sees the roaches and hydras because their DPS output is still high even when the terran has 3-3 or 2-2 timings planned. Roaches/Hydras have a problem of reaching their max effectiveness at around 10 of each. many Zergs will make the mistake of massing the two units and If you make any more than that ideal amount then the roaches become dead supply because only the FRONT 10 roaches are actualy attacking while the rest are bumbling around doing nothing. Same for hydras. But I thought about it and I think if you just get a few of each but stop before you get too much then you will still get the power the units provide (their decent DPS output at 4/5 range) and as long as you just dont make too many of them to the point where they start to get useless you can keep upgrading lings and go ling/bling muta with just a few roaches/hydras sprinkled in for midgame security (pretty much late mutas, but faster roach/hydra) In the end the cost is 350/100 for the warren / den, then 800/400 for 8 hydras and 750/250 for 10 roaches. I think the cost comes out to being pretty strong for what it provides you in terms of midgame power vs terran midgame pushes. And if you are only being defensive, the fights are always on creep so you dont need to actually get upgrades for the roaches/hydras for them to be useful as a defensive force. So no money needs to be spent on actually upgrading the units. The plan is, be purely defensive and never aggressive. Force the terran to attack you, otherwise you will have 3/3 ultras and lings at 20 minutes with mutas and your in a good position. So the few roaches / hydras provide some midgame power allowing you to get to dem 3/3 ultras and muta/ling/bane more securely. Then lategame those few roaches and hydras still compliment your max army nicely by providing some ranged DPS, and then when they die you just dont replace them Heres a replay where im trying out the concept and terran does a midgame bio+hellbat attack. I think it works well a few fights the terran has more supply than me but i still crush the army. http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=283153BIG THING TO REMEMBER, in the first fight the terran attacks me with hellbats / bio and I am in trouble. His army is bigger compared to mine and I win the fight because I engage with my army letting the roaches and hydras deal their DPS and I pull back most of my lings letting only a few lings engage. If you let all your lings go in they will all die to a few hellbat shots, but if you only send in some lings and pull back the rest your roach/hydra can deal their ranged DPS and then you pull back and reinforce with more lings when you need more lings to tank more shots.. So send in groups of lings at a time while hydra/roach does dps Also, I realized since your only getting a few banelings and most of the fights are on creep you dont really need to upgrade baneling speed ive found the army compliments eachother nicely even with slow banelings
I will have to watch the replay when I get home, however your saying you will have enough hydra out to make a difference at 8:45min off 3 base?
The only way I can think to stop this is the second you scout it stop drone production once 2 base saturation is complete and just build mass roach baneling, as I can't see any other tech getting out in time otherwise otherwise.
The biggest problem tho is the fact that your economy is getting disrupted constantly prior to the drop and even with 1-2 spores and a spine its still not enough, as 2 hellbats can clear a drone line in seconds even with static defence, so how do you defend the drops and the front line push at the same time. Its really stupid that 2 units can do that much damage in a drop as the terran can have 96% of his army at your front door while 4 units dropping from the sides at the same time killing all your drones??? is there any better way of stopping this? I even tried parking more queens around the mineral line / endges of the map but it didn't work
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On May 27 2013 21:49 rustypipe wrote:
The biggest problem tho is the fact that your economy is getting disrupted constantly prior to the drop and even with 1-2 spores and a spine its still not enough, as 2 hellbats can clear a drone line in seconds even with static defence, so how do you defend the drops and the front line push at the same time. Its really stupid that 2 units can do that much damage in a drop as the terran can have 96% of his army at your front door while 4 units dropping from the sides at the same time killing all your drones??? is there any better way of stopping this? I even tried parking more queens around the mineral line / endges of the map but it didn't work
You have to see the drop coming into your base. The T, will use speed to drop into your mineral line.
You have to pull all your drones away, deal with the hellbat/medivac and get your drones back.
It doesn't matter how much static defense you have(unless its 3 spores), the T will do dmg when you don't pull your drones, but watch out, for his speed cooldown. He can drop with speed the hellbats in your retreating drones. So micro is necessary.
If you give him a timer to retreat(queens attack medivac/spores), you shouldn't lose any drones as long as you keep watching ur minimap/bases, pull drones when it comes, and use good micro.
If 2 100minerals units are supposed to force so much, is another topic :D
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On May 27 2013 22:22 KuKKi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2013 21:49 rustypipe wrote:
The biggest problem tho is the fact that your economy is getting disrupted constantly prior to the drop and even with 1-2 spores and a spine its still not enough, as 2 hellbats can clear a drone line in seconds even with static defence, so how do you defend the drops and the front line push at the same time. Its really stupid that 2 units can do that much damage in a drop as the terran can have 96% of his army at your front door while 4 units dropping from the sides at the same time killing all your drones??? is there any better way of stopping this? I even tried parking more queens around the mineral line / endges of the map but it didn't work
You have to see the drop coming into your base. The T, will use speed to drop into your mineral line. You have to pull all your drones away, deal with the hellbat/medivac and get your drones back. It doesn't matter how much static defense you have(unless its 3 spores), the T will do dmg when you don't pull your drones, but watch out, for his speed cooldown. He can drop with speed the hellbats in your retreating drones. So micro is necessary. If you give him a timer to retreat(queens attack medivac/spores), you shouldn't lose any drones as long as you keep watching ur minimap/bases, pull drones when it comes, and use good micro. If 2 100minerals units are supposed to force so much, is another topic :D
Even if you don't loose many drones the mining time lost off 2 bases having no drones mining for that time period is very damaging that early in the game especially when the 9min timing hit is coming at your front door, was just wondering if there was a better response to this, but I guess there isn't.
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On May 27 2013 21:49 rustypipe wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2013 16:35 shreddedtheticz wrote:Ive been also trying to find solutions to these midgame hellbat / bio pushes with or without a terran 3rd. Zerglings are real weak against it A idea im having ZvT is that midgame bio+hellbat attacks are really hard to stop with ling bling muta Then I started to have a thought. Roaches deal 16 damage hydras deal 12 damage unupgraded so even if terran hits with a 3-3 timing at 16minutes it still only reduces hydra damage by 25% and roach damage by less, so I dont think the money is "wasted" even if the terran skips a midgame attack once he sees the roaches and hydras because their DPS output is still high even when the terran has 3-3 or 2-2 timings planned. Roaches/Hydras have a problem of reaching their max effectiveness at around 10 of each. many Zergs will make the mistake of massing the two units and If you make any more than that ideal amount then the roaches become dead supply because only the FRONT 10 roaches are actualy attacking while the rest are bumbling around doing nothing. Same for hydras. But I thought about it and I think if you just get a few of each but stop before you get too much then you will still get the power the units provide (their decent DPS output at 4/5 range) and as long as you just dont make too many of them to the point where they start to get useless you can keep upgrading lings and go ling/bling muta with just a few roaches/hydras sprinkled in for midgame security (pretty much late mutas, but faster roach/hydra) In the end the cost is 350/100 for the warren / den, then 800/400 for 8 hydras and 750/250 for 10 roaches. I think the cost comes out to being pretty strong for what it provides you in terms of midgame power vs terran midgame pushes. And if you are only being defensive, the fights are always on creep so you dont need to actually get upgrades for the roaches/hydras for them to be useful as a defensive force. So no money needs to be spent on actually upgrading the units. The plan is, be purely defensive and never aggressive. Force the terran to attack you, otherwise you will have 3/3 ultras and lings at 20 minutes with mutas and your in a good position. So the few roaches / hydras provide some midgame power allowing you to get to dem 3/3 ultras and muta/ling/bane more securely. Then lategame those few roaches and hydras still compliment your max army nicely by providing some ranged DPS, and then when they die you just dont replace them Heres a replay where im trying out the concept and terran does a midgame bio+hellbat attack. I think it works well a few fights the terran has more supply than me but i still crush the army. http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=283153BIG THING TO REMEMBER, in the first fight the terran attacks me with hellbats / bio and I am in trouble. His army is bigger compared to mine and I win the fight because I engage with my army letting the roaches and hydras deal their DPS and I pull back most of my lings letting only a few lings engage. If you let all your lings go in they will all die to a few hellbat shots, but if you only send in some lings and pull back the rest your roach/hydra can deal their ranged DPS and then you pull back and reinforce with more lings when you need more lings to tank more shots.. So send in groups of lings at a time while hydra/roach does dps Also, I realized since your only getting a few banelings and most of the fights are on creep you dont really need to upgrade baneling speed ive found the army compliments eachother nicely even with slow banelings I will have to watch the replay when I get home, however your saying you will have enough hydra out to make a difference at 8:45min off 3 base? The only way I can think to stop this is the second you scout it stop drone production once 2 base saturation is complete and just build mass roach baneling, as I can't see any other tech getting out in time otherwise otherwise. The biggest problem tho is the fact that your economy is getting disrupted constantly prior to the drop and even with 1-2 spores and a spine its still not enough, as 2 hellbats can clear a drone line in seconds even with static defence, so how do you defend the drops and the front line push at the same time. Its really stupid that 2 units can do that much damage in a drop as the terran can have 96% of his army at your front door while 4 units dropping from the sides at the same time killing all your drones??? is there any better way of stopping this? I even tried parking more queens around the mineral line / endges of the map but it didn't work
If the terran can micro 2 drops + his main army, then you should be able to defend 2 drops + micro your main army. And just to prevent misunderstandings, hellbat drops which simply consist of a medivac queued to unload in a mineral line don't do damage. Even if you don't defend against them they won't do any significant damage besides killing maybe 2 stray drones. The problem is drones have low attack priority, queens/static defenses have higher priority, so unmicro'd the hellbats will ignore drones. And believe me that is a larger issue than it sounds like.
And as zerg you should pretty much always see the drop coming with ovi scouts.
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Roach/Hydra is your answer. Have an OL enter the Terran's production facilities around 5:15 to see if he's going early 3rd or for early pressure. Adjust your own build accordingly, in this case I'd recommend 1/1 roaches for the initial push while slowly adding in Hydras for DPS and Medivac sniping.
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On May 27 2013 22:51 ShamW0W wrote:
Roach/Hydra is your answer. Have an OL enter the Terran's production facilities around 5:15 to see if he's going early 3rd or for early pressure. Adjust your own build accordingly, in this case I'd recommend 1/1 roaches for the initial push while slowly adding in Hydras for DPS and Medivac sniping.
In one of my replys i tried that, I got 1-1 roach really fast with banelings but the main push came just as I started getting hydra out, should I stop droning earlier and just have the 3rd hatchery there for larva and bline for roach hydra?
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Why go banelings? Your 1/1 Roaches will be more effective than 0/0 banes and are less dependent upon godlike micro (especially if you don't have centrigual hooks upgraded).
I'd really just use pure Roach to crush a push like that then, once you feel some level of comfort, begin working Hydras into your composition. At that point you should have a solid 3-base economy while being able to deny the Terran's 3rd for a long time.
Edit: After watching the games you generally lose before the drops even start. You don't scout to see what the Terran is doing and fall behind in workers every game before the drops start. Drone scout early, sacrifice an OL, and adjust accordingly. Building a random group of lings in the middle of the game 'just in case' is going to be inefficient more times than not.
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The build is kind of all in. I don't think you can actually stop it if you invest in roaches (as counter intuitive as that seems). You just need to go for pretty fast mutas. Just scout and use spines/spores to buy you some time, and wait for your mutas which will probably mean gg (as long as you get more than 5 mutas out in time).
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This build is pretty sweet, i played a few rough games from memory and it worked like a charm. Guys I played went roaches and blings, but it didnt work. I just let the banelings run into the marauders and scvs, and they both seemed to be larva starved as they had been power droning. Neither got mutas out, I dont know how much it would have helped though, i managed to keep my marine count high.
To stop it, I would say do an ovie flyby at the 8 minute mark or so, you should see a tl rax, r fact, naked port and 2 rax building. There will be no ebays, and T will have less scvs than usual because he cuts them at 7 or so. If you then rush tu mutas you might be able to do some damage before the marine count gets too high.
I dont know how well this would work without the scv pull, probably not very well I think.
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The bottom line is that you give the terran an economic lead in each of the games, even without considering losses to hellbat drops.
+ Show Spoiler +
Each game goes the same way: Rev goes 14cc, you take a late third and get crushed by his superior econ.
Game 1:
Rev opens 14cc, and the only counter-pressure you apply is to run a few slings into a supply depot wall (which, by the way, Rev just barely gets down in time).
@9:15: Rev has 48 harvesters to your 42 (zerg really needs to be in the lead in harvester count).
You don't take your third until 7:00, (completes at 8:30, but you don't have it saturated until 9:50).
The hellbat drop comes at 10:00 and kills a whopping 7 drones before the queens/slings/spines/spores clear them out. A pretty annoying loss, but certainly not game ending.
@12:00 By the time the push comes Rev is 130 supply to your 110, though you do manage to hold, he's already far enough ahead in economy and army value that he's basically already won.
@14:15 Your counter push doesn't really accomplish much, as Rev already has numerical superiority
@16:30 final push comes 180 supply MMMh (1/1) vs 124 supply roach/swarm host (0/0) .
Game 2:
Rev opens 14CC again, you don't take your third until 6:45, and you don't even start mining from it until 9:30.
You take 4 gas before mining at the third.
The hellbat drop reaches you at 9:40, and again, kills 7 drones before you clean it up.
Then you go a little overboard with tech--centrifugal hook AND glial recon AND double EVO upgrades AND a spire.
When Rev's first big push reaches you, he already has a supply lead of 140 vs 100.
Game 3:
Rev opens 14cc.
You take a fast third a 5:45, and at 8:00 you start mining from it with only 4 drones, and you keep mining from it with only 4 drones until 9:50.
Then a hellbat drop comes at 9:30 and kills 6 drones.
Then the Rev pushes 124 supply to your 92 and wins.
Game 4:
You take a fast third at 5:50, which completes at 7:30, which you start mining from at 11:20.
Meanwhile, you broke your habit of morphing a spine crawler in your main, and consequently lost 18 drones instead of the usual 7.
Then you obliterate a large portion of the terran army at the 12min push with roach/baneling, but you don't have the economy to keep up with Rev's reinforcement.
If the terran is going 14cc you really need to get your own third saturated fast. It's like psychologically you're expecting a 1base all in even though he's gone 14cc. You should consider adding a drone scout in your build just to look for 14cc, considering you gave up four consecutive games to it. Your queen+spine+spore in each base seems to be working to stop the drops, and game 4 engagement shows that roach/baneling can indeed effectively counter bio/hellbat if you're patient and take the fight on creep.
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On May 28 2013 12:28 CB_XENOCIDE wrote:The bottom line is that you give the terran an economic lead in each of the games, even without considering losses to hellbat drops. + Show Spoiler +
Each game goes the same way: Rev goes 14cc, you take a late third and get crushed by his superior econ.
Game 1:
Rev opens 14cc, and the only counter-pressure you apply is to run a few slings into a supply depot wall (which, by the way, Rev just barely gets down in time).
@9:15: Rev has 48 harvesters to your 42 (zerg really needs to be in the lead in harvester count).
You don't take your third until 7:00, (completes at 8:30, but you don't have it saturated until 9:50).
The hellbat drop comes at 10:00 and kills a whopping 7 drones before the queens/slings/spines/spores clear them out. A pretty annoying loss, but certainly not game ending.
@12:00 By the time the push comes Rev is 130 supply to your 110, though you do manage to hold, he's already far enough ahead in economy and army value that he's basically already won.
@14:15 Your counter push doesn't really accomplish much, as Rev already has numerical superiority
@16:30 final push comes 180 supply MMMh (1/1) vs 124 supply roach/swarm host (0/0) .
Game 2:
Rev opens 14CC again, you don't take your third until 6:45, and you don't even start mining from it until 9:30.
You take 4 gas before mining at the third.
The hellbat drop reaches you at 9:40, and again, kills 7 drones before you clean it up.
Then you go a little overboard with tech--centrifugal hook AND glial recon AND double EVO upgrades AND a spire.
When Rev's first big push reaches you, he already has a supply lead of 140 vs 100.
Game 3:
Rev opens 14cc.
You take a fast third a 5:45, and at 8:00 you start mining from it with only 4 drones, and you keep mining from it with only 4 drones until 9:50.
Then a hellbat drop comes at 9:30 and kills 6 drones.
Then the Rev pushes 124 supply to your 92 and wins.
Game 4:
You take a fast third at 5:50, which completes at 7:30, which you start mining from at 11:20.
Meanwhile, you broke your habit of morphing a spine crawler in your main, and consequently lost 18 drones instead of the usual 7.
Then you obliterate a large portion of the terran army at the 12min push with roach/baneling, but you don't have the economy to keep up with Rev's reinforcement.
If the terran is going 14cc you really need to get your own third saturated fast. It's like psychologically you're expecting a 1base all in even though he's gone 14cc. You should consider adding a drone scout in your build just to look for 14cc, considering you gave up four consecutive games to it. Your queen+spine+spore in each base seems to be working to stop the drops, and game 4 engagement shows that roach/baneling can indeed effectively counter bio/hellbat if you're patient and take the fight on creep.
Thanks for the detailed response,
Well when we where practicing he did the hellion/rauder/marine/medivac all-in in the first game and i was playing my standard opening which got crushed, after which I didn't know the proper response so the next 3 games where to try and stop it. I knew he would do the exact same build as I told him to do it over and over again till I found a solution. However no matter what I tried i couldn't stop it as the hellion drops really disrupt my droning time, however I guess I could take a faster 3rd and try to saturate it by 8min then just build all units if I spot this all in to try and stop it.
I still feel that roach, ling, bane can't cost efficiently stop this and you will eventually just fall behind. He wasn't even pulling SCV's like MVP did, which would of made matters much worse
I'm gong to try the following tonight if possible. Take a fast 3rd and go for really fast ling muta, use the muta to snip early drops / hellbats and marines, use lings to stop re-enforments while muta is clearing ling destroying units and then swarm with lings / banes if possible. Or once I spot this just make mass queen roach and build up energy on queens for transfuses. Use the queens to try and snipe the medivacs while the roach target fire the hellbats.
Any further advice would still be greatly appreciated or even a VOD or replay of someone stopping this as I see someone has now posted the exact build on TL so I fear i will see this non-stop on ladder now as its stupid easy to execute
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
On May 27 2013 14:57 MoonCricket wrote:
I think MVP pretty much proved Terran is IMBA at this point and they'll have to do something about Medivac speed and Hellbats, they can't delude themselves that a free speed updgrade for drop ships and a 100 mineral unit that hard counters every other races mineral unit is fair for long.
What? So much delusion in this comment.
To stop hellbat drops just kill the medivac.
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Overlord @6 mins to scout the Terran (you'll know anyway considering the Terran is not going to make more than 2 hellions) .
Roach warren @7 mins , 1 spore per base, bring all your queens to snipe the medivac as soon as you spot it (micro your drones off the mineral line) .
- Don't overproduce units to deal with the drops (3-4 roaches and a few lings are enough) .
- Baneling nest BEFORE lair .
- Few drones at third
When the Terran decides to attack add a few roaches and produce lings like a mad man , you need a lot of banelings to deal with the hellbats and the marines (they are the ones dealing the "real" dps) .
blade5555 made a nice VOD about how to deal with hellbats/marine/marauder timings (dunno for the medivacs) , might want to check it out .
During WCS Stephano would have hold Mvp's build (game 4) if he didn't take that one wierd engagement (he didn't realize Mvp had no SCV's reamining I think) .
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I have seen a variation of this on ladder a couple of times, where the terran makes only hellbat marauder, and I find it really hard to beat considering how marauders can take more baneling hits than marines, and are really good against roaches. Obviously mutas would be good here, but the push comes around 9:00 and I don't think you could have enough mutas by then.
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On May 29 2013 01:03 Swiipii wrote:
blade5555 made a nice VOD about how to deal with hellbats/marine/marauder timings (dunno for the medivacs) , might want to check it out .
Can you link this VOD please? Blade55555 has quite alot of YouTube videos but some are not titled/described very well. Closest one in Hellbat drops, but that is different to say mass Marine/Marauder/Hellbat off two bases.
EDIT:
I think part of the issue here is that our T1.5 "counter" unit: Banelings trade very inefficiently with Hellbats.
This is a pure trade scenario, so assumes supply is irrelevant.
Hellbat: 135 health, 100min cost
Baneling: Damage vs light 35, 50 minerals, 25 gas each
To kill a Hellbat takes 4 banelings!
Therefore if you connect 4 baneling to:
1 Hellbat: 100min vs 200min/100gas
2 Hellbat: 200min vs 200min/100gas
3 Hellbat: 300min vs 200min/100gas
4 Hellbat: 400min vs 200min/100gas
Given the the game value of gas would be more then minerals, just to break even each baneling MUST connect to 3-4 Hellbats. Given the size of the Hellbat is similar to a Marauder, I don't think that trading is even feasible.
Then if behind these Hellbats, Terran stacks Marauders (range 6) to deal with any attempt at Roaches (range 3).
The only threat would be T2 mutas? But throw in a some Marines and that is easily dealt with especially since muta count will be low at this time. If fact, I'm stumped on this one. Maybe Lots of Queens? Spines?
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after reading the thread im pretty convinced of what is going on here.
1. it is very very difficult for zerg early-mid game to trade evenly.
2. predicting what what comes out is near irrelevant because each strategy doesn't trade evenly. (mines, quick vacs, hellbats)
3. holding an economic lead is even more important now cause u are barely going to be trading evenly anymore.
there is a problem here because from my experience its even harder to make a comeback now...
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On May 30 2013 16:07 Chrono000 wrote:
after reading the thread im pretty convinced of what is going on here.
1. it is very very difficult for zerg early-mid game to trade evenly.
2. predicting what what comes out is near irrelevant because each strategy doesn't trade evenly. (mines, quick vacs, hellbats)
3. holding an economic lead is even more important now cause u are barely going to be trading evenly anymore.
there is a problem here because from my experience its even harder to make a comeback now...
Sadly that pretty much sums up ZvT in a nutshell and this build is still stupid effective
I also don't see Blizzard fixing this anytime soon as the last few update notes on the test servers / maps are not doing anything and just messing around with cheap burrow research
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I have pretty much never seen a zerg trade evenly against a 2-base protos push, however that doesn't stop zerg from beating them: If you simply got a better economy there is no need to trade evenly.
And really if I were you I would start finding creative ways to deal with it, considering compared to terran zerg is more represented on ladder and really not doing worse in pro tournaments, I wouldn't be holding your breath for a ZvT boost.
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Rustypipe I don't think there is a lot holding you back from defending that. Just because you're slightly behind the Terran in supply before the drops come in each case. I'm not sure how you would go about solving that if i'm honest with you but it's somewhere to start looking at least.
This may actually just be the fact that you were slightly tense about facing this strategy in the first place.
I do have a question though, is there a reason why you wait so long after getting 1-1 to get 2-2/2-1?
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This is basically the Terran's equivalent of the roach bane all in, or a protoss immortal sentry all in. The only way for Terran to survive a roach bane all in is to bunker a ton of bunkers, have tanks, have good spread of units and still likely sacrifice quite a few scvs. If Terran tries to take a 3rd expo and hold it, they're just dead.
To survive this, zerg has to make some sacrifices - pull drones from 3rd and just sack the 3rd. Make macro hatch at main/nat if not already done. make a few spines outside nat and just defend there. The just make lings and roachs off 2 base whilst teching to either infestors and mutas and upgrading to 2-2, whilst looking to flank and surround, can threaten counterattack with nydus, but main aim is to keep army alive. If Zerg drones up to 80 and tries to keep their 3rd of course they will die. Terran sacrifices a lot with this all in and will have poor upgrades, no tanks, no widow mines, limited production, and their 3rd will be incredibly late unless they decide to abandon the aggression.
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On May 31 2013 04:30 Sissors wrote:
I have pretty much never seen a zerg trade evenly against a 2-base protos push, however that doesn't stop zerg from beating them: If you simply got a better economy there is no need to trade evenly.
And really if I were you I would start finding creative ways to deal with it, considering compared to terran zerg is more represented on ladder and really not doing worse in pro tournaments, I wouldn't be holding your breath for a ZvT boost.
The only reason why Zerg is holding their own on ladder / tournaments is because of the players behind them. Just because a select few are god like monsters in SC doesn't mean its even. If they where playing any other race other then Zerg i'm sure the same devastation would follow.
The difference between ZvT and ZvP two base push is the following:
1.) The 2 base push can typically be spotted pretty easily, opposed to terran, IE Overlord sack is usually more useful and actually spots the tech. Protoss's tech is pretty straight forward with its buildings.
2.) Even tho the zerg doesn't trade effectively or in a 1-1 fashion it is STILL more cost effective then hellbats and or mines / medivacs
3.) Terran has a PLETHORA of ways to horas zerg early game to hinder zerg economy so when the 9-11min push does come it is that much more devastating ie.) Reaper>Hellbat>8:30ish drop timing> 11-12 min 2-2 timing push with mines
4.) Terran also have the most cost effecient units in the game. You tell me one protoss unit that compares to the hellbat and or mine and can do the same kind of damage. 2 hellbats in a speedvac can wipe out entire mineral lines if micro'ed well very fast! not even DT's kill of a mineral line like that
5,) If protoss really does do the 9min immortal centry push to finish off the game and it fails with zerg holding their 3rd thats GG for the protoss anyhow in most cases as they have cut probes and invested so heavily to make the timing work. However terran has to invest half that cost to do equal amount of damage
I'm not saying they are unbeatable, just saying not everyone playing SC2 HOTS is Stephano's and lifes with sick game mechanics that can make up for the stupidity of Terrans cost efficiency
Also this thread was created for assistance in coming up with a creative way to deal with things like this, and I was simply replying to someone who extrapolated what the ZvT situation is truely like. However I thank you for the stunning revelation on how to deal with this problem: "And really if I were you I would start finding creative ways to deal with it"
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On May 31 2013 04:52 WillS wrote:
Rustypipe I don't think there is a lot holding you back from defending that. Just because you're slightly behind the Terran in supply before the drops come in each case. I'm not sure how you would go about solving that if i'm honest with you but it's somewhere to start looking at least.
This may actually just be the fact that you were slightly tense about facing this strategy in the first place.
I do have a question though, is there a reason why you wait so long after getting 1-1 to get 2-2/2-1?
No that was just sloppy play, I was hammering out games vs the same build to try and stop it, so I knew the time his medviac would drop would come every time. It was just bad response time trying to deal with everything else. Once the drops started coming I was trying to micro my drones from dieing and get them back mining
The problem I have with the hellbat drops that start around 8:30 is even when I micro properly its not the drone deaths that hurt its the lack of mining while you deal with the medivac, this hurts the econ very badly as the main push comes around 11min.
I've unforantly haven't ran across it again on ladder and haven't had the chance to hit up RC again for some practice vs this build, but i will try to get the 3rd saturated faster and hold with 1-1 roaches. I don't think banes will be cost effective enough as it stretches the gas to far in that short time. Long and short of it is, I still don't have a solid answer to this build
RC does have the build / timings down pat and is a good upper masters player so his mechanics are probably slightly better then mine, however if I manage to stop this cost effectively I will post my findings
I appreciated the response tho as I am actively working on trying to spot / stop this build when I see it
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On May 29 2013 00:50 Targe wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2013 14:57 MoonCricket wrote:
I think MVP pretty much proved Terran is IMBA at this point and they'll have to do something about Medivac speed and Hellbats, they can't delude themselves that a free speed updgrade for drop ships and a 100 mineral unit that hard counters every other races mineral unit is fair for long. What? So much delusion in this comment. To stop hellbat drops just kill the medivac.
More like dead on, after watching the GSL games it seems pretty clear TvZ is forcing Z to go back to Hatchery based aggression to hold off the Medivac/Hellbat drops, "kill the medivac" is easier said than done before Hydralisks are on the board. It's obvious the 4 Queen, Speed Ling defenses are not working, if the 3-0 into 3-4 match for Innovation vs Soulkey is any indication. Any build order short of Roaches can't hold off Hellbat drops cost efficiently, it's really that simple.
@OP
Being aggressive with 2 base Roach Baneling pressure will definitely work, I'm still having a lot of difficulties with 3 Hatch before Pool or 2 Queen into 3rd because of the delayed gas timings, but there should be a solution in there that works if you can nail down the gas timing or produce 3 Queens at a time to hold ground, spread creep and push out Medivacs.
The big thing I think is to not over react to 1xReaper, 2xHellion by getting multiple Queens and Ling speed too early.
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mate i have this same problem now EVERY zvt, Its not the fact that the comp they have is a problem its their remax. Banes are a one shot punch and when you use them or morph them you deplete so much gas when you need to do it again you dont really have the econ because.......
they drop with a couple of those hellbats and you take significant damage to your econ, and usually at the time of the game where everything is a mess anyway (if they do it early it can ruin you as well) every says put down spines, put down spores . . .well i saw moonglade mass do this like literally 5 or 6 spores asround each baseand its DIDNT MATTER. The hellbats got in did the damage. At the time i thought it was good . . .but in the meantime moons standing army wasnt that big and the other guys tanks marauders thors and hellbats part of their main army rolled him, after he killed it twice . .. the terran just kept coming.
I do believe mutalisks are the way to go but you just cant seem to get enough of them, they directly counter the hellbats, tanks and marauders and so some extent with mboxing thors . . .but its the handfull of fucking marines which kill them, the maraduers they produce stop the banes and if you try to focus with the mutas the thor splash rapes the mutas and the lings cant get the surround they need and roaches are good but they dont seem to do the dps you need. SO
Vipers. Blinding cloud. Ive been having a bit of success with this but its the whole thing of having the econ to support it they can basically harass for free and we cant get into their lines really, and if we do with the lisks 300m of marines. and 3 turrets is enough where we have spent all of our gas and usually most of the minerals to get numbers up enough to do actual damage.
Yes i hear you man, but i dont think its the comp it seems to be the remax of the terran which is the problem, they seem to be able to produce just as much shit at us which by default is way more cost efficient]
here are some of my reps where i won (it is getting to that point where i want to play as terran just to do this)
Now im not a masters player but i watch a hell of a lot of streams and everyone is having an issue with this to a point, but you have to nail it exactly right and you arent allowed to make mistakes, a-moving WILL get you killed
1. BC the tanks first and a thors (need 5 vipers fully charged ive found)
2 A-move your army into their just to get close to exvery thing is fighting and magic box 1 thor leave these lisks
3 - MACRO MORE ARMY, roaches may be good as they live longer or lings to morph purely to banes
4. select hydras and target thors
5- a-move everything closer and send the remaining viper energy on the tanks
now this doesnt always work but ive been satisfied to see a few marauders and a couple of tanks left over where another round of lings cleans it up BUT
they come at you with a very similar sized push . . .and i cant stop that usually. Im really really trying to find a way to beat this at my skill level and im prepared to sit and practice with someone if they want to frind me, but which terran wants to give this strangle hold up!
http://sc2replaystats.com/replay/41600
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On June 01 2013 19:18 StatixEx wrote:mate i have this same problem now EVERY zvt, Its not the fact that the comp they have is a problem its their remax. Banes are a one shot punch and when you use them or morph them you deplete so much gas when you need to do it again you dont really have the econ because....... they drop with a couple of those hellbats and you take significant damage to your econ, and usually at the time of the game where everything is a mess anyway (if they do it early it can ruin you as well) every says put down spines, put down spores . . .well i saw moonglade mass do this like literally 5 or 6 spores asround each baseand its DIDNT MATTER. The hellbats got in did the damage. At the time i thought it was good . . .but in the meantime moons standing army wasnt that big and the other guys tanks marauders thors and hellbats part of their main army rolled him, after he killed it twice . .. the terran just kept coming. I do believe mutalisks are the way to go but you just cant seem to get enough of them, they directly counter the hellbats, tanks and marauders and so some extent with mboxing thors . . .but its the handfull of fucking marines which kill them, the maraduers they produce stop the banes and if you try to focus with the mutas the thor splash rapes the mutas and the lings cant get the surround they need and roaches are good but they dont seem to do the dps you need. SO Vipers. Blinding cloud. Ive been having a bit of success with this but its the whole thing of having the econ to support it they can basically harass for free and we cant get into their lines really, and if we do with the lisks 300m of marines. and 3 turrets is enough where we have spent all of our gas and usually most of the minerals to get numbers up enough to do actual damage. Yes i hear you man, but i dont think its the comp it seems to be the remax of the terran which is the problem, they seem to be able to produce just as much shit at us which by default is way more cost efficient] here are some of my reps where i won (it is getting to that point where i want to play as terran just to do this) Now im not a masters player but i watch a hell of a lot of streams and everyone is having an issue with this to a point, but you have to nail it exactly right and you arent allowed to make mistakes, a-moving WILL get you killed 1. BC the tanks first and a thors (need 5 vipers fully charged ive found) 2 A-move your army into their just to get close to exvery thing is fighting and magic box 1 thor leave these lisks 3 - MACRO MORE ARMY, roaches may be good as they live longer or lings to morph purely to banes 4. select hydras and target thors 5- a-move everything closer and send the remaining viper energy on the tanks now this doesnt always work but ive been satisfied to see a few marauders and a couple of tanks left over where another round of lings cleans it up BUT they come at you with a very similar sized push . . .and i cant stop that usually. Im really really trying to find a way to beat this at my skill level and im prepared to sit and practice with someone if they want to frind me, but which terran wants to give this strangle hold up! http://sc2replaystats.com/replay/41600
What League are you? I am Diamond Terran. If you want, we can practice whatevr BO you need. Tell me here or PM.
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Small Tutorial for Zerg to not die to hellbat drops, followed up by 2 base marauder / hellbat allin:
Hellbats are slow. they are slower than workers. they are even slower than queens. Medivacs with boost are fast. the combination of both makes hellbats faster, therefore dangerous. The danger doesn't lie in the hellbats, but in the medivac. The solution doesn't lie in direct combat with hellbat force, but in avoiding the medivac micro over your bunched up workers.
1) build a queen and a spore per base, have them chip away the medivac.
If hellbats are unloaded, run away with workers + lings + queens. dont clump them up, because a pickup and redrop might occur. Make sure, pickup will not occur by having queen hurting medivac into retreat. go back to mining, kill hellbats that have not been picked up with roaches.
2) make a Roachwarren, if this kind of play is suspected. Generally, a Roachwarren is always a good idea, as other similar openers of t might by widowmines, bio , or 3 cc double ebay greed, which both are shutdown /countered by a random high number of roach.
The only thing a hellbat drop does to a zerg that is prepared, is deny some mining time, and if lucky, get a queen and perhaps 1 or 2 drones from the gas geysers if really comitted.
To hold the allin: i think pure pumping roaches is enough. just macro hatch mass roaches, no ammount of 2 base marauders will power threw 3 base roaches, as roaches are cheaper. if u have gas over, some banelings or Hydralisk, infestors or mutalisk.
Hydralisk in ZVT are very underestimated by many zerg, their dps is awsome, and their defensive value togeter with roaches is huge.
5 Hydralisk defenslve positioned are shutting medivac drops down way harder than a bunch of 15 mutalisk ever could.
Generally, from t perspective, Mutalisk in ZvT is often overestimated by many zerg, they are very weak in defensive combat situation.
Investing big ammounts of Gas into Mutalisk in a close game is very often the cause for a Zerg to lose a ZVT.
Muta Job is scouting, anti drop play, picking up single reinforcements, getting some unguarded workers, addons and stuff like that. Muta is not good for combat, and if u are getting allined, u want to have combat units.
roaches, hydras, they can fight.
Mutas can fly around fast and look awesome,
but this will not help winning against a guy that just pulled his 45 workers together with hellbats and marauders and moves in direction of your 3rd.
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HEY GUY ABOVE, i think me and you played yesterday and you did this strat and then told me mutalisks are a bad idea after then telling me you had no idea who life and leenock are who USE mutalisks against this strat, the difference between us and them is we cant get enough out to do the damage and contain harass we need so in a manner of speaking yes . . the mutas arent that good.
see tanks, hellbats marauders and vacs . . . are countered by mutalisks! (oh and build a roach warren should go in your step 1 btw) and have you seen roaches against hellbats . . unless you have a load of them they take ages to kill them in the mean time i think a hellbat can 1 on 1 a spine as i had 2 in my lines and you killed one, got away droped and did more damage.
and muta is good for combat just you need to be pretty good at controlling 2 armies, 3/3 mutas with a backbone roach army is damn good
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I still advocate Roaches into Hydras to deal with this along with other, non-tank, forms of Terran play. At lower skill levels you're likely going to be flipping coins on if you trade effectively with ling/bane/muta. However, using Roach/Hydra you can focus on more controlled engagements where Roaches can actually be super cost-effective against most Terran compositions early game. If they go pure Marauder/Hellbat then building a wave of Hydras is going to clean that up no problem. (be sure to snipe Medivacs)
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as shown by soulkey today a 2-2 roach hydra allin can be a really powerful response to a hellbat drop opener. if he didn't throw away so many units before actually attacking he would have CRUSHED innovation hard. he still almost broke him.
mass roaches + banes is the best way to hold this for sure and that transitions pretty smoothly into the aforementioned allin.
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EPT
