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Sweden2358 Posts
On February 07 2010 18:29 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
obs missing stuff is understandable and fine honestly. Carnac filled in and that is great of him, back off guys.
But I do feel I need to complain:
Artosis and Tasteless are my two favorite commentators as a duo. I think they balance each other and offer an exciting mix of entertainment and insight (for the most part). But I feel like this TSL they have performed abnormally sub-par. And I don't intend this to be anything but a constructive criticism, they are the best, they are here to stay and I think this is all for the best as is.
However.
Barring the excuse that they are up at an ungodly hour casting TSL I feel robbed. Tasteless constantly over enthusiastically discusses moments were clearly it DOESN'T matter almost at all and has little or no impact on the actual game. Great right? Why am I being so nitpicky? Well it happens frequently enough and this really is a uncommon tendency by him in particular. There are many examples but one that comes to mind is in game 1 of jf vs terran at the 36 min mark he goes on and on about a 1 tank drop at the top left base when jf has something like 6 bases vs terran's 1.5 or so.. it REALLY doesn't matter at all and in fact the game ends like a minute later. This is about as specific as I want to get, in general my complaint is that the duo seems really offgame and if they aren't emotionally reacting at proper times they are discussing things late, not at all or irrelevantly.
If someone wants to really debate me on this I will go with the minute by minute analysis of points where the commentating was really bad. Again, I bring this up NOT because I think tasteless or artosis should be fired or removed but because I KNOW they can do better and I think the excuse "this was done at a bad hour for them" is tired and weak.
This is TSL. If they are tired and weak and there is no way for them to come prepared/delay the cast to a more normal hour for them then we need to plan better in the future or take steps to see them better rested OR SOMETHING. I KNOW I am not alone on this.
Artosis and tasteless are my friends and they are great guys.. I hope this isn't taken as an attack on them because it honestly isn't. They do this professionally and I hope they can hear this as a critical assessment of their professional work on this particular project. If I come off as anything else I will revise/reword or delete as is necessary.. but for now I hope something constructive can be taken from this.
Thoughts?
PS: I hate to pick on Nick as my sole example, artosis is off his game too but I didn't think a big ass post with x, y and z reasons for why they aren't doing well would be helpful. If I am wrong, as I said, I will correct this.
I agree with this. I was actually going to write a post about it myself since I thought Carnac (and intrigue in previous casts) have handled themselves much better than Artosis and Tasteless, who frequently miss stuff and go off on sc2gg-esque rants that make no sense whatsoever.
I think much of it stems from them being forced to commentate while controlling their own obs screens. It means they have to do three things at once, one of which is talking in a coherent manner (which usually screws up the other parts as it's pretty much impossible to multitask well while talking and trying to sound coherent and insightful).
You can really notice how they slack off watching the minimap, and slack off thinking about strategical implications while they are talking. The reason they do worse than Chill and day[9], I think, is because Tasteless and Artosis often compete about geting their voice and opinions out there. They like to play off eachother, go back and forth in quick exchanges, interrupt eachother etc... Which means they're actually trying to do 4 things at once.
When Chill and day[9] cast, one of them usually goes on a one minute (insightful) rant while the other stays passive and cool and updates himself on the current state of the game. Also the person staying silent seems to check the minimap much better than when Artosis and Tasteless cast. Artosis and Tasteless just never shut up enough to give eachother breathing space. As a result they end up sounding like D-players when talking about how huge of an advantage a player has when, simultaneously, the observer is showing the other player's probes/scvs being wiped out (two, three minutes later they notice something isn't adding up, and this pretty much happens every game). They often completely miss stuff when there's action going on in two places at the same time.
They really need to stop to reflect at certain points in the game. One of them needs to create the time and breathing room for the other to be able to just take a minute and reflect about what is actually happening in the game. When Chill and day[9] cast, one of them is always alerting the other of something that might be happening simultaneously, as it's almost impossible for the one talking to be focused and aware enough to watch for other things happening simultaneously.
I really enjoy listening to and watching Tasteless & Artosis cast. But they're rusty when it comes to casting while observing. The dynamics between the two are perfect for "proper" casts, with professional observers, a studio, and a real production team backing them. But it's just not suited for casts where they have to do these many things simultaneously.
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I loved every game, player, caster and observer.
I knew what was going on in every game, because of those three things. player caster observer.
did not matter that observer missed it, i saw it on the minimap. stop bitching. this shit is FREE.
they are trying to do you a service, not impress you.
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I thought lastnights obs where not as good as previous TSL coverages, few things would be after missing a probe harrass, you should atleast check the kills on the vultures, not clicking on buildings under fire was another thing but over all it's been good.
I'm not saying anyone is at fault for this, mearly pointing out what ticked me off slightly, everyone inc the obs do a great job.
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On February 07 2010 19:44 LaLuSh wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2010 18:29 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
obs missing stuff is understandable and fine honestly. Carnac filled in and that is great of him, back off guys.
But I do feel I need to complain:
Artosis and Tasteless are my two favorite commentators as a duo. I think they balance each other and offer an exciting mix of entertainment and insight (for the most part). But I feel like this TSL they have performed abnormally sub-par. And I don't intend this to be anything but a constructive criticism, they are the best, they are here to stay and I think this is all for the best as is.
However.
Barring the excuse that they are up at an ungodly hour casting TSL I feel robbed. Tasteless constantly over enthusiastically discusses moments were clearly it DOESN'T matter almost at all and has little or no impact on the actual game. Great right? Why am I being so nitpicky? Well it happens frequently enough and this really is a uncommon tendency by him in particular. There are many examples but one that comes to mind is in game 1 of jf vs terran at the 36 min mark he goes on and on about a 1 tank drop at the top left base when jf has something like 6 bases vs terran's 1.5 or so.. it REALLY doesn't matter at all and in fact the game ends like a minute later. This is about as specific as I want to get, in general my complaint is that the duo seems really offgame and if they aren't emotionally reacting at proper times they are discussing things late, not at all or irrelevantly.
If someone wants to really debate me on this I will go with the minute by minute analysis of points where the commentating was really bad. Again, I bring this up NOT because I think tasteless or artosis should be fired or removed but because I KNOW they can do better and I think the excuse "this was done at a bad hour for them" is tired and weak.
This is TSL. If they are tired and weak and there is no way for them to come prepared/delay the cast to a more normal hour for them then we need to plan better in the future or take steps to see them better rested OR SOMETHING. I KNOW I am not alone on this.
Artosis and tasteless are my friends and they are great guys.. I hope this isn't taken as an attack on them because it honestly isn't. They do this professionally and I hope they can hear this as a critical assessment of their professional work on this particular project. If I come off as anything else I will revise/reword or delete as is necessary.. but for now I hope something constructive can be taken from this.
Thoughts?
PS: I hate to pick on Nick as my sole example, artosis is off his game too but I didn't think a big ass post with x, y and z reasons for why they aren't doing well would be helpful. If I am wrong, as I said, I will correct this. I agree with this. I was actually going to write a post about it myself since I thought Carnac (and intrigue in previous casts) have handled themselves much better than Artosis and Tasteless, who frequently miss stuff and go off on sc2gg-esque rants that make no sense whatsoever. I think much of it stems from them being forced to commentate while controlling their own obs screens. It means they have to do three things at once, one of which is talking in a coherent manner (which usually screws up the other parts as it's pretty much impossible to multitask well while talking and trying to sound coherent and insightful). You can really notice how they slack off watching the minimap, and slack off thinking about strategical implications while they are talking. The reason they do worse than Chill and day[9], I think, is because Tasteless and Artosis often compete about geting their voice and opinions out there. They like to play off eachother, go back and forth in quick exchanges, interrupt eachother etc... Which means they're actually trying to do 4 things at once. When Chill and day[9] cast, one of them usually goes on a one minute (insightful) rant while the other stays passive and cool and updates himself on the current state of the game. Also the person staying silent seems to check the minimap much better than when Artosis and Tasteless cast. Artosis and Tasteless just never shut up enough to give eachother breathing space. As a result they end up sounding like D-players when talking about how huge of an advantage a player has when, simultaneously, the observer is showing the other player's probes/scvs being wiped out (two, three minutes later they notice something isn't adding up, and this pretty much happens every game). They often completely miss stuff when there's action going on in two places at the same time. They really need to stop to reflect at certain points in the game. One of them needs to create the time and breathing room for the other to be able to just take a minute and reflect about what is actually happening in the game. When Chill and day[9] cast, one of them is always alerting the other of something that might be happening simultaneously, as it's almost impossible for the one talking to be focused and aware enough to watch for other things happening simultaneously. I really enjoy listening to and watching Tasteless & Artosis cast. But they're rusty when it comes to casting while observing. The dynamics between the two are perfect for "proper" casts, with professional observers, a studio, and a real production team backing them. But it's just not suited for casts where they have to do these many things simultaneously.
Good posts imo.
I agree with everything you wrote there Lalush about Tasteless and Artosis competing all the time, which unfortunately lowers the quality of the cast. It seems like their interpersonal battles are more interesting to them than the actual game. I'd much rather have Chill/Day[9] if these kinds of broadcasts continue.
That being said I like Tasteless and Artosis, but they're not doing a very good job so far in the TSL, and like Lalush mentioned it has to do with them competing. At Blizzcon they were way better and the obvious reason for that was that they had a "moderator" of sorts, namely DJ Wheat to keep them cooler and more collected in their rants.
Actually, how about a moderator in the TSL2 broadcasts too? Someone like Chill who is calm and collected for instance. He could be watching the minimap and keep it all together, by asking Dan and Nick stuff while keeping tabs on the game while they are talking.
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Not really sure why people are so upset over this, It was a single error in an otherwise pretty much flawless tournament and was caused by unforseen circumstances - give the guys a break :/.
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Observing in a major tourny is hard and stressfull to say the least too.
At Lalush, I don't see where artosis and tastless are trying to compete, actually for the time they wake up in korea I think they pull it off very well, only thing I miss is tasteless's humor. GomTV was so funny sometimes i'd be laughing most of the game.
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I think what would help out Artosis and Tasteless would be to watch the game separately. By watching it together on one screen, they are limited to what one of them is looking at, instead of each looking at different things. They could still cast in the same room, which I think adds to the 'dual commentary' part of it, but each with their own computer. That way when one of them is talking about upgrades the other could be looking for raids/tech etc. and they wouldn't miss as much.
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I think people should keep in mind that first of all, Carnac isnt used to observing with commentators and it's a lot harder than ppl give credit for. Second of all, even the observers in the korean proleagues fuck up pretty much every time I watch a VOD.
That being said, I think Carnac and TL.net are open for criticism and I think they got the picture of the entire situation so whining in this thread is kinda pointless imo.
Don't take it personally Carnac, you are doing a great job so far with just a few blunders!
Looking forward to watch your perhaps improved observing-skills later on tonight 
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The obs missed lots of important events, or was focusing on little things for too long - the camera should be moving around a lot more. It was very frustrating.
Also, Artosis should stop giving his monotone crystal ball predictions after every single encounter and just commentate on what is blowing up with excitement (take a lesson from Tasteless). It really kills the mood, hearing him say "this game is decided" for the majority of the match.
Likewise, if a player is making mistakes (whether JF not scouting nine oclock on FS, or someone not macroing or timing well), it's better to make humor or light out of the situation, but do NOT insult the players and call it a "nooby" mistake. Maybe you think you can play better in the situation, but your commentary is focusing on all of the wrong things that make a match exciting.
Korean pro games do not rely on replays, and the observer can typically tell the whole story just by highlighting things with the mouse:
- Periodically click on units to see upgrades
- Click on any building that appears to be teching (flashing/spinning) at an interesting timing.
- Click on any building that indicates a novel tech direction.
- Click on whichever unit appears to have a player's focus (scouting or harassing), or about to do something special (e.g. recall). Watch the minimap to see when this unit first enters the opponent's base.
- Finally, watch the battlefield and see who is winning, watch for nice micro.
I don't want to tell you guys how to do your job, and I commend you for all of the hard work you've put in, but the obs could be improved.
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Yeah, one thing that annoys me is when the commentators talk about how a game is decided 5 minutes into the game. When in fact it isn't. They dumb down Starcraft unintentionally and make it seem like quite the simple game where you can tell that a game is over after a couple of minutes.
Also, the stuff Artosis said in his latest SCForall news about the Really vs Stork game was of similar nature; "the game would have been OVER." No.
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in my opinion it would be nice if the casters would see the exact same screen the viewers or observer does. otherwise im very satisfied with the commentary/obsing.
just a quick thought, but wouldn't it suffice to let the casters just watch the stream and put them in vent with the streamer guy?
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Damn, I read this entire thread and I was really surprised that there are this many complaints about the observer (Carnac from what I gathered?) and the commentators. Carnac missed some things in game one, but the rest of the games were fine. You could chalk that up to Carnac just screwing up one game and that would be totally acceptable, but they even have a legitimate reason for it: He wasn't even prepared to be the observer that day!
As for InControls comments, I kind of like that Tasteless makes a big deal out of nothing. I really hate at the end of games when one player is trying to make something happen, and the commentators drone on about how over the game is, there is no chance, etc. Tasteless kind of keeps hope alive, and if that losing player is one of your favourites, then it's nice to have that.
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I didn't read all 9 pages but I read that someone mentioned Korean commentators / observers being a lot better. Do you actually know how the observing / commentary works in Korea? As far as I remember, the commentators comment on the things the observer shows. In TSL2 Carnac TRIES to show what Artosis/Tasteless or Chill/Day[9] say... its much harder.
About missing stuff; even the Korean observers miss stuff from time to time... it just happens. It wasn't all that terrible to be honest.
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On February 07 2010 23:26 G.s)NarutO wrote:
I didn't read all 9 pages but I read that someone mentioned Korean commentators / observers being a lot better. Do you actually know how the observing / commentary works in Korea? As far as I remember, the commentators comment on the things the observer shows. In TSL2 Carnac TRIES to show what Artosis/Tasteless or Chill/Day[9] say... its much harder.
About missing stuff; even the Korean observers miss stuff from time to time... it just happens. It wasn't all that terrible to be honest.
It is tricky if they're all watching separate screens of what's going on, but the alternate system probably works a lot better. I don't know if they're local, but there ought to be a technical solution that doesn't create too much lag.
The observer shouldn't miss gosi doing a drop and *killing the nexus* before the camera makes it over. JF countered that drop with a recall that wasn't focused until Tasteless pointed it out. There shouldn't be this much delay in what is happening and what we're seeing/hearing about.
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There's been lots of debate already... I don't feel that it was too awful as to ruin the experience. I thought that the commentators were a bit lacklustre and if thats truely from it being so late then perhaps we should switch the times since the entertainment value is really what people are after right?
The obs was alright for not having seen the game before and missing a thing or two is normal if you're doing it from that crowded small screen.
Thanks for everyone who did the cast, cuz it was good, just reiterating some things.
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Calgary25998 Posts
On February 07 2010 19:15 rapture wrote:
wow i can't believe this has come to page 8 already, but okay...
1. although obs performance yesterday wasn't as good as before (reasons discussed already) i think obs still did an okay job. overall i wouldn't complain about the observing this TSL - you are doing a great! the only possibility to do it better would be a live show in a studio (like ESL, MBC, OSL)
2. i have to agree with incontrol. artosis & tasteless aren't casting their a-level. they are still doing okay, but compared to their live event casts (absolutely fabulous) their tsl cast is sloppy and more or less unfunny i guess. one can really hear their tiredness while casting. my point is they are still doing good but could do way better.
about they caster/observer thingi got some suggestions/questions:
What the casters setup? Do they have 1 or 2 screens? i think it would be best to have bw on screen 1 and the observers view on screen 2. (only valid for the tasteless&artosis cast, cause 2 screens per (1) caster will be too much)
There is a delay (>5s) between live BW and the stream coming from the observer, so having it on the screen doesn't help much. I usually have the stream up but I don't get anything from it.
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Calgary25998 Posts
On February 07 2010 23:18 DeLoAdEr wrote:
in my opinion it would be nice if the casters would see the exact same screen the viewers or observer does. otherwise im very satisfied with the commentary/obsing.
just a quick thought, but wouldn't it suffice to let the casters just watch the stream and put them in vent with the streamer guy?
No, there are major syncing and quality issues with this.
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If you are saying that the commentators stay up until 4 am and then comment the games, i don't wonder it is not 100% from them. Why don't they go to bed early and get up before the cast...I overall like the TSL 2 and know it is hard to do the obsing and commenting. Sometimes commentators really surprise me with amount of stuff they miss and speaking just about some not important thing instead of commentating the action... Anyways thanks for all you guys doing, TSL2 is great. Can't wait for tonight matches, go Ret and Mondi
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Someone was complaining about the TL.net staff not "apologizing" or "moving on" for the obsing yesterday. Due to the nine pages of posts in this thread and me wanting to read all of it before responding to this I'm going to be lazy and not put exact quotations.
The issue is that the TL.net staff DID GIVE AN APOLOGY. They blatantly said that Carnac did not get to properly prepare in their usual way and so the obsing was subpar compared to the past TSL casts and did say they were sorry about that. They did mention they believed they did the best they could under the given circumstances.
After that everyone just flamed them and ignored that part of their response... finally many posts later someone mentioned maybe having all obs observe all games so they have backups... and guess what? A TL.net staff member basically said "Great suggestion!"
I noticed the obs was off a bit this game but it didn't "ruin" the entire experience for me. If anything I felt the commentating was subpar moreso than the obs (though both were still excellent). And also everyone is harping on Game 1 of the JF series. That game had so much simultaneous action that I think even given Infernal (he's the other obs right?) as the prepared obs a lot would have still been missed because the commentary would be exactly the same.
The TL staff impresses me not only with the way they're running this tournament but also with the way they have responded with this post. They have only come at people with sarcastic comments after they have given appropriate responses and received only flames or ignorance in return.
Good job and keep up the good work guys! I feel confident that you are always looking for ways to improve and taking serious suggestions in mind. I'm really enjoying watching this TSL and look forward to the rest of the casts!
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Maybe someone said this already, but anyway, I want to add my two cents:
Wouldn't the most easy way to solve this be for the person who is controlling the screen record a VOD, then send it to the casters and let them commentate based on that? I am not aware of all the variables, but it seems to be the most efficient solution, imo.
Also, LOL at first five pages with that guy Attrictive or whatever... awesome thread.
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