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not enough energy atm to read everything. but i want to say that i dont agree with a few of this onesided criticismpoints I read at the beginning.
first of all how you can compare the situation of the korean casting to this? i mean they are all together in a studio and the commentators just comment on that what the observers show.. this is better but i guess its not possible online with all the delays.
the point that the observer should always be aware of the place the commentators speak of atm and always jump towards there is bs too imo.. because he saw a lot that the commentators missed and it would be even worse when he jumps away from the actual action like white-ra sniping tt1s shuttle or dropping is reavers into his expansion just to be in sync with the commentators..
when he heard that the casters talked about something which is more worth to watch than what he had on the screen then he also tried to jump in as fast as possible.
i think overall he did a better job last week. but today it was still a gj imo except a few mistakes in the one game like missing vulture+tank drop or the recall. but in the overall picture not as big as some people make it sound here..
so i want to thank tl for all the effort and good work they put in and hope they dont get demotivated by a few overcritical people out of the 1000 of viewers which were pleased.(because ppl tend to write/talk more about the negative things and be more silent when everything went well for them)
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Zurich15365 Posts
pioneer: Maybe we have a different understanding what a 'stream' is. We use one, the one everyone is watching.
Anyway, I wasn't really serious since you have no idea what you are talking about. Again, if you have a complete and doable solution I'd be happy to hear it. Just don't use words like "stream" or "feed", but describe the exact setup, what hardware and what software, which codecs, what kind of connection, etc you would use to make this happen.
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3 Lions
United States3705 Posts
The obs may have missed a few things, but he/they also get many things before the commentators notice too.
+ Show Spoiler [TT1 vs Ra spoiler] +For example, in the set on Outsider, the obs caught Ra sniping TT1's shuttle and reaver. About 5 seconds later, the commentators noticed Ra's goons moving around in the middle and said that he was probably trying to catch TT1's shuttle. About another 5 seconds later they realize that Ra had indeed sniped the shuttle earlier.
I really don't think it's fair to criticize the obs like this, especially in this case where Carnac couldn't watch the games beforehand and prepare. If you criticize the obs like this, you have to criticize the commentators for not paying attention to the minimap and stuff too.
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Calgary25997 Posts
On February 07 2010 09:37 Hot_Bid wrote:Attritive has been banned for the following PM exchange with me: Attritive PM to me: Show nested quote +Quote of one of my posts in the thread At least you're not short on excuses and whining! My PM to Attritive: Show nested quote +My post there was clearly a sarcastic response to pioneer8 saying "just be like the Korean broadcasts" which is obviously just an impossible wish. I never whined and made excuses. Obviously we can't perfectly recreate a pro Korean broadcast when we don't have everyone in the same studio, we aren't in the same physical location as the players, and we don't have the same resources (salary, experience, etc).
That was why I made that post -- pioneer8 asking for a Korean broadcast is the same as asking for any of these other unattainable things at the time.
I don't know how you interpret that as making excuses or whining, because I did none of those. Of course we aim at making it as professional as possible, but we can only do so much. Maybe TSL6 will be as good as a Korean broadcast. But stating "why not like Korean broadcast" like pioneer8 did in that thread is what prompted my response.
I don't appreciate this PM from you because it not only misinterprets my response but is generally condescending and insulting. Attritive PM to me: Show nested quote +I was trying to be condescending and insulting. You were whining and making excuses, however "sarcastic" you want to call it. The way you and your fellow admins handle this site disgusts me. You're a bunch of children and it made me feel nice to make fun of you.
lol my pm exchange went a little differently:
(ME):
k
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Original Message (HIM):
I would love to meet you in person and see you try to pull off your bitch act. lol
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Original Message (ME):
i dont answer questions from people who make less than me
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Original Message (HIM):
You have no idea what my mood is, and it really shouldn't matter to you one way or another. Regardless, my question there was serious.
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Original Message (ME):
calm down
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Original Message (HIM):
Why even respond? Ridiculous behavior every step of the way. What is with you douchey little SC players?
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Original Message (ME):
k
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Original Message (HIM):
You want me to give you advice and/or tangible suggestions when you so firmly disagree with what I'm saying? I seriously doubt it. You were trying to argue with me. Your questions had no intention other than to say: "You're full of shit and thus will not be able to answer these questions." You did it to the other guy as well. You do it frequently.
You have no reason to expect anyone to respond to your condescending, defensive tone with positive, concrete suggestions. You especially can't expect me to give you answers when you can't even offer me some civility, or when your questions are simply for the sake of showing me up.
That's why I said, when I make a tournament I'll respond to your questions if I fail in some way, but not until then. In other words: the only reason I'd give a sniveling little child like you any answers, is to teach you how to have some manners.
You've proven to me that's all you're worth.
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I thought the obs did an excellent job, and doubly so because of the situation. I actually prefer it that he doesn't click on expansions the second they go up or always show what the casters are talking about, as I can see it for myself. The stream quality is good enough that when an expansion goes up, I can see it on the minimap. Artosis can tell me that there are 10 factories and that's fine, the fuck do I need to see them for, I know what factories look like.
The situation that stood out to me the most was when JF finished his first Stargate on Desti, threw up a second one, and Carnac did a quick sweep of all of his bases showing no Tribunal. Great work. Thanks so much for this.
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I prefer the Korean style of casting or actually being an observer in a game live, in that you don't know what units are being queued in factories/starports/robos/hatcheries and gateways etc. I think that knowing when things are going to pop takes away from the excitement of the game. Watching in the replay style is very similar to watching a live stream, but in a live stream you have no clue as to what the other player is doing so the intensity can build on the unknown. In these replay observed/commented games I can really tell quite early who has the upper hand with all the knowledge being presented by the observer. The point really came across during the game TT1 vs. White-Ra on Destination where White-Ra has his DT closing in on TT1's base and the observer went to the robotics facility to see if Kabal has an observer queued. He did and it ruined the moment for me because we knew White-Ra's attack was a failure well before it actually failed. It also ruined the nice defense of Kabal, as we all knew it was coming a good 20 seconds before anything happened. I find that with all the information and experience with all the build orders, our knowledge of the players and the strategies they use, the map preferences/imbalances etc. it would be nice to not know at least one element of the game.
Oh and the recall to 3 oclock Terran vs JF both the commentators and observer missed it and I find that kind of disappointing. I mean the big blob of blue was there for like 3 minutes before there was any recognition of the recall.
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On February 07 2010 10:36 zatic wrote:
pioneer: Maybe we have a different understanding what a 'stream' is. We use one, the one everyone is watching.
Anyway, I wasn't really serious since you have no idea what you are talking about. Again, if you have a complete and doable solution I'd be happy to hear it. Just don't use words like "stream" or "feed", but describe the exact setup, what hardware and what software, which codecs, what kind of connection, etc you would use to make this happen.
It doesn't matter the codecs or software etc, what i was trying to explain to you was a simple idea of 3 streams. which is an elementery description of the date processed between 3 central hubs. I explained that using a delay switch on the connection between the observer and the production stream, to compensate for the time it would take for the relay to travel between the observers computer and the commentators computer, and then the ventrilo server and the main stream. I could even create a technical diagram for the slow of thought.
You're obviously the authority on video streaming and live broadcasting, so don't let me trouble you with my jargon.
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IE, if i was going to spoonfeed you and tell you exactly what to do, what programs and codecs to use, you might use different ones and it might confuse you. What i am trying to explain to you is a fundamental aspect of live broadcasting that you can apply on your own if you wish.
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United States4991 Posts
On February 07 2010 11:16 Rabbet wrote:
I prefer the Korean style of casting or actually being an observer in a game live, in that you don't know what units are being queued in factories/starports/robos/hatcheries and gateways etc. I think that knowing when things are going to pop takes away from the excitement of the game. Watching in the replay style is very similar to watching a live stream, but in a live stream you have no clue as to what the other player is doing so the intensity can build on the unknown. In these replay observed/commented games I can really tell quite early who has the upper hand with all the knowledge being presented by the observer. The point really came across during the game TT1 vs. White-Ra on Destination where White-Ra has his DT closing in on TT1's base and the observer went to the robotics facility to see if Kabal has an observer queued. He did and it ruined the moment for me because we knew White-Ra's attack was a failure well before it actually failed. It also ruined the nice defense of Kabal, as we all knew it was coming a good 20 seconds before anything happened. I find that with all the information and experience with all the build orders, our knowledge of the players and the strategies they use, the map preferences/imbalances etc. it would be nice to not know at least one element of the game.
Oh and the recall to 3 oclock Terran vs JF both the commentators and observer missed it and I find that kind of disappointing. I mean the big blob of blue was there for like 3 minutes before there was any recognition of the recall.
I totally disagree about the more knowledge being a bad thing, and I think it's one area where our streaming team does a really good job.
As mentioned before, usually our observer watches the replays ahead of time to try to get an understanding of where the key points are. Unfortunately due to disastrous occurrences (masses of snow knocking out power for our original observer) our observer had not watched these replays in advance. I attempted to give a really brief summary of the game to him in advance, but it's not possible to sum up all the key moments in games like that and where they happen the same way you get from watching a replay a few times.
Future casts will not suffer from this issue with regards to the observer. 
For the commentators themselves--that's their responsibility.
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I agree with you!
Everytime something was going on... " RECALL AT 3 CMON OBS"
"VULTURE DROP BOTTOM LEFT... WTF OBS!!!!"
Basically most of the game changing moments in game 1. like.. ALL
Although im still very happy with TSL and the commentating :D
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Calgary25997 Posts
On February 07 2010 11:48 pioneer8 wrote:
IE, if i was going to spoonfeed you and tell you exactly what to do, what programs and codecs to use, you might use different ones and it might confuse you. What i am trying to explain to you is a fundamental aspect of live broadcasting that you can apply on your own if you wish.
Yea, I think we're also trying to explain why that doesn't work.
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Pioneer everyone understands what you want them to do, but rather than spoonfeed you the precise reasons why, I'll keep it simple so you don't confuse yourself and just say that they're not planning to do it that way for a multitude of reasons.
P i a n o M a n
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On February 07 2010 11:48 pioneer8 wrote:
IE, if i was going to spoonfeed you and tell you exactly what to do, what programs and codecs to use, you might use different ones and it might confuse you. What i am trying to explain to you is a fundamental aspect of live broadcasting that you can apply on your own if you wish.
Yep, it's more fun to be condescending than helpful. But on the off chance that you do want to help, stop showing off how awesome you are at theorycrafting and find us reasonably priced software that can actually do this. Keep in mind the commentators' connection isn't perfect (had lag spikes last weekend) so the latency may vary.
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Zurich15365 Posts
Yeah sorry pioneer8 sounds all nice in theory but doesn't work in practice.
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What streaming software do you use now? The same software you use now can most likely do this. You are just using two video streams and one audio server in my variation with the dedicated observer, rather than one video stream and one audio server which you use now, where the observer also handles the production. The producer would recieve the video stream from the observer, who is streaming the game, and tweak the delay between the observer's stream and and the final product that gos to the audience, which is caused by the delay between the observer's stream and the producer taking less time than the observer's stream to the commentators, who also have to stream through the ventrilo server to the producer.
edit : fixed
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Calgary25997 Posts
Wait wait wait, what's a stream?
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I haven't even seen any software that can mess with a live asf stream's audio (which the producer would need to do to add the commentator audio to the obs's stream).
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Germany / USA16648 Posts
I'm pretty sure I remember streaming it to the casters was considered way back (during TSL1 if memory serves) and deemed impracticable. Now let's see, which assessment is more probably correct? Yours? Or... maybe... R1CH's?
+ Show Spoiler +
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/facepalm at this thread...
I rarely ever post but I can't believe the ridiculous amount of whining going on here. I just want to say a HUGE THANK YOU!!! to all the TL admins and people that put their time and effort into organizing this tournament for OUR entertainment... as well as furthering the sport that we all love.
EVERYONE has off days and we can't expect perfection at all times from everyone involved. People just need to take a step back and look at all the things these guys are providing to us for little to no personal gain. I am sure there are many people behind the scenes working to make this happen that never even get recognition. So to those people as well I want to say thanks for all your hard work and I will look forward to some more great games in this TSL.
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On February 07 2010 14:04 vol wrote:
/facepalm at this thread...
I rarely ever post but I can't believe the ridiculous amount of whining going on here. I just want to say a HUGE THANK YOU!!! to all the TL admins and people that put their time and effort into organizing this tournament for OUR entertainment... as well as furthering the sport that we all love.
EVERYONE has off days and we can't expect perfection at all times from everyone involved. People just need to take a step back and look at all the things these guys are providing to us for little to no personal gain. I am sure there are many people behind the scenes working to make this happen that never even get recognition. So to those people as well I want to say thanks for all your hard work and I will look forward to some more great games in this TSL.
I totally agree. The TSL admins have done a great job so far.
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EPT
