TSL Stream Obs

On February 07 2010 07:04 Schnake wrote:
I think the exact opposite. Tastosis missed a couple of important things, whereas Carnac captured them perfectly. I am quite happy with the obs. :o)

On February 07 2010 07:38 pioneer8 wrote:
I agree with this thread. I've been watching the entire TSL2 and the observer has been poor in every game. It would be great if they replaced the current observer with someone who has deep game knowledge, and actually listens to what the commentators are saying while they observe the map.

Please TSL... This would be my only real complaint.

On February 07 2010 07:04 Schnake wrote:
I think the exact opposite. Tastosis missed a couple of important things, whereas Carnac captured them perfectly. I am quite happy with the obs. :o)

On February 07 2010 07:48 pioneer8 wrote:
I'll compare with the Korean observers. They observe the map in a calm, steady way, clicking certain buildings and units, and moving to certain areas that are important as the game progresses. They highlight certain areas, and work as a team with the commentators to help the people better watch and understand the game.


For the TSL in general, not just this set, I cannot list the number of times the observer has been looking somewhere completely different for 30 seconds, while the commentators are talking and philosophizing about something else.


Thanks guys, please get someone else or make improvements on the one now... as i said, my only real complaint with this awesome tourney.

On February 07 2010 07:51 Carnac wrote:

Nah, I missed a few things or realized some stuff too late and I'm not really happy with it overall. In my defense though, I wasn't supposed to do it today in the first place. Intrigue was in the process of getting set up in preparation of the broadcast, when his power went out because of a snow storm and what no, so I had to jump in at the last minute. I didn't get a chance to look at the games beforehand like I should have and couldn't concentrate as well as I would have liked.

And for Artosis & Tasteless it's hard because it's damn fucking late when they do it (the cast starts at 4 AM their time!).

On February 07 2010 07:51 Carnac wrote:

Nah, I missed a few things or realized some stuff too late and I'm not really happy with it overall. In my defense though, I wasn't supposed to do it today in the first place. Intrigue was in the process of getting set up in preparation of the broadcast, when his power went out because of a snow storm and what no, so I had to jump in at the last minute. I didn't get a chance to look at the games beforehand like I should have and couldn't concentrate as well as I would have liked.

And for Artosis & Tasteless it's hard because it's damn fucking late when they do it (the cast starts at 4 AM their time!).

On February 07 2010 07:48 pioneer8 wrote:
I'll compare with the Korean observers. They observe the map in a calm, steady way, clicking certain buildings and units, and moving to certain areas that are important as the game progresses. They highlight certain areas, and work as a team with the commentators to help the people better watch and understand the game.


For the TSL in general, not just this set, I cannot list the number of times the observer has been looking somewhere completely different for 30 seconds, while the commentators are talking and philosophizing about something else.


Thanks guys, please get someone else or make improvements on the one now... as i said, my only real complaint with this awesome tourney.

On February 07 2010 07:48 pioneer8 wrote:
I'll compare with the Korean observers. They observe the map in a calm, steady way, clicking certain buildings and units, and moving to certain areas that are important as the game progresses. They highlight certain areas, and work as a team with the commentators to help the people better watch and understand the game.

For the TSL in general, not just this set, I cannot list the number of times the observer has been looking somewhere completely different for 30 seconds, while the commentators are talking and philosophizing about something else.

Thanks guys, please get someone else or make improvements on the one now... as i said, my only real complaint with this awesome tourney.

On February 07 2010 07:56 pioneer8 wrote:
I'm not personally insulting you Carnac. I think my advice holds some merit. Try to pay more attention to the commentators while the game is going on. Listen to them and work as a team. This applies to intrigue as well as i believe hes the other observer. Thanks.

On February 07 2010 07:56 pioneer8 wrote:
I'm not personally insulting you Carnac. I think my advice holds some merit. Try to pay more attention to the commentators while the game is going on. Listen to them and work as a team. This applies to intrigue as well as i believe hes the other observer. Thanks.

On February 07 2010 07:59 pioneer8 wrote:
I'm sorry, i shouldn't have said poor, i should have said mediocre. I'm trying to be objective. What the Koreans do isn't all that hard, it just takes cooperation, focus, and deep game knowledge. I'm just calling for the tournament to be improved. I know it's hard to be objective, but im really not trying to insult you personally.

On February 07 2010 07:57 Hot_Bid wrote: (Again, to be clear, the casters don't pre-watch the series, only our observer).

On February 07 2010 08:04 pioneer8 wrote:




I also think that that is part of what makes the observing not as exciting or cohesive with the commentating. There are dozens, if not hundreds of people that would be able to observe just as good as the Koreans, with their level of knowledge, and pay attention to the commentators, AND be live.

On February 07 2010 08:03 Chill wrote:

Offer real suggestions. "Do it better" doesn't help. For comparison, try observing a game yourself and you will quickly see how difficult it is.

On February 07 2010 08:04 pioneer8 wrote:




I also think that that is part of what makes the observing not as exciting or cohesive with the commentating. There are dozens, if not hundreds of people that would be able to observe just as good as the Koreans, with their level of knowledge, and pay attention to the commentators, AND be live.

On February 07 2010 08:08 Carnac wrote:

Seriously. How often have you watched a replay and missed stuff.

Even Korean camera controllers of progaming matches miss stuff and they do it for a living, doing it every week for years...

On February 07 2010 07:59 pioneer8 wrote:
I'm sorry, i shouldn't have said poor, i should have said mediocre. I'm trying to be objective. What the Koreans do isn't all that hard, it just takes cooperation, focus, and deep game knowledge. I'm just calling for the tournament to be improved. I know it's hard to be objective, but im really not trying to insult you personally.

On February 07 2010 08:11 pioneer8 wrote:



Yes, but there are hundreds of Starcraft fans who have watched thousands of games and can play at B/A rank at ICCUP.


Also, why is it neccesary to observe the game in windowed mode?

On February 07 2010 08:11 pioneer8 wrote:



Yes, but there are hundreds of Starcraft fans who have watched thousands of games and can play at B/A rank at ICCUP.


Also, why is it neccesary to observe the game in windowed mode?

On February 07 2010 08:01 Zona wrote:
One thing I would like the observer to periodically show the state of the players' economy, production capacity (factories, gates, rax, etc), and tech, especially when a new base, new production buildings, or new tech was being added. A lot of times new tech was added but the audience wasn't aware of it for awhile. And when a big square showed up in the minimap at an expansion, the viewer had to guess if it was an expansion or maybe just units there. Of course the observer should also try to catch clashes between armies and it's much more exciting to follow an entire harass attempt from start to finish. It may be useful to have a secondary observer to watch for things and tell the primary observer of things he or she might be missing so the primary observer can catch things he or she overlooked much more quickly.

And freeing the commentators from controlling their own view could help them cast better.

On February 07 2010 08:11 pioneer8 wrote:

Yes, but there are hundreds of Starcraft fans who have watched thousands of games and can play at B/A rank at ICCUP.

Also, why is it neccesary to observe the game in windowed mode?

On February 07 2010 08:11 pioneer8 wrote:

To Chill : The observer is as important as the commentators in a cast like this and it is similar to if the commentators pre-watched the game, it loses some of the surprise and intensity, and general excitement from the game observervation.

On February 07 2010 06:43 zatic wrote:
The casters can't control the observer for technical reasons. Yes there were slip ups in this cast but please don't exaggerate those few mistakes.

We have the same observers as for all the other TSL games and over all they are doing a good job.

The way you and your fellow admins handle this site disgusts me. You're a bunch of children and it made me feel nice to make fun of you.

On February 07 2010 08:18 pioneer8 wrote:
I also suggest that you figure out a way to observe in full screen mode. That would help alot. Thanks.

On February 07 2010 08:18 pioneer8 wrote:
My suggestion was to make the entire tournament better by improving certain aspects of it. I said a few times that my primary suggestion is trying to be more cooperative with the commentators. It's just my opinion, im not trying to say the tournament or anybody sucks, and i shouldnt have said it was poor.

I also suggest that you figure out a way to observe in full screen mode. That would help alot. Thanks.

On February 07 2010 08:20 David Mudkips wrote:


Man, the screenshot shows that he needs to be in windowed mode for all the transition images and to be on IRC if there is technical troubles. Like if the sound suddenly cuts off on the stream he wouldn't realize it because he wouldn't be able to see the IRC chat.

On February 07 2010 08:17 Chill wrote:

Howso? How are you infering excitement from the observer? How is an observer going to build surprise into a Starcraft game? These are real questions I expect you to answer.

The way you and your fellow admins handle this site disgusts me. You're a bunch of children and it made me feel nice to make fun of you.

On February 07 2010 08:17 Attritive wrote:


Many of the casts have had bad "camera work". For example, the casters frequently have to tell the observer to look at something that he isn't, and sometimes he never does. I'm assuming that when Tasteless is frequently saying "look at X" he is telling the observer, but maybe he's just saying it to Artosis. Regardless, when he says that, the observer (hearing him or not) misses the indicated action/building/unit frequently.

On February 07 2010 08:20 Attritive wrote:


You ask those questions in such a rude manner, like they cannot be answered. Are you questioning whether or not he knows the answers, or do you actually think he's wrong?

P.S. He's not.

On February 07 2010 08:20 Attritive wrote:


You ask those questions in such a rude manner, like they cannot be answered. Are you questioning whether or not he knows the answers, or do you actually think he's wrong?

P.S. He's not.

On February 07 2010 08:22 Chill wrote:

He's saying it for the benefit of the observer. There is no communication between caster and observer, so we can't know what they are looking at. Hence "frequently have to tell the observer to look at something that he isn't" is not true, since there is no way to know what he is looking at.

Look, Korean casters react to the observers. We are the opposite, the observer has to react to the caster, so if we can say something to trigger him to look at a location, of course we do. The end goal is that everyone is watching a united cast.

The way you and your fellow admins handle this site disgusts me. You're a bunch of children and it made me feel nice to make fun of you.

On February 07 2010 08:20 Attritive wrote:


You ask those questions in such a rude manner, like they cannot be answered. Are you questioning whether or not he knows the answers, or do you actually think he's wrong?

P.S. He's not.

On February 07 2010 08:24 Attritive wrote:


And the end result is the observer frequently missing things. So people try to point this out and get flamed by admins.

On February 07 2010 08:24 Attritive wrote:


And the end result is the observer frequently missing things. So people try to point this out and get flamed by admins.

On February 07 2010 08:24 Attritive wrote:


And the end result is the observer frequently missing things. So people try to point this out and get flamed by admins.

The way you and your fellow admins handle this site disgusts me. You're a bunch of children and it made me feel nice to make fun of you.

On February 07 2010 08:26 pioneer8 wrote:


As i said, "it is similar to if the commentators pre-watched the game, it loses some of the surprise and intensity, and general excitement," but for example, think of all the times in close intense games, observers making football coach esque drawing with his cursor to the audience to show what is going on, intensely looking from spot to spot, with interest and intensity.

On February 07 2010 08:27 Chill wrote:

How should we fix it? There's tons of other problems with the TSL, like I don't get shipped water by a bikini-clad servant while I cast, and my office chair doesn't have a build-in toilet. If there aren't realistic solutions to the problem then what are we to do besides explain why things are the way they are? "Do better" doesn't help us.

On February 07 2010 08:28 Attritive wrote:
Chill's questions were about this: "The observer is as important as the commentators in a cast like this" not the issue of prewatching. If the casters watched the game beforehand it would add to the experience probably, not detract. The idea I was disagreeing with was the one presented by Chill's passive aggressive questions, that is: the observer doesn't bring any dynamics to the presentation or the dramatics/excitement of the presentation. That is wrong and pretty ridiculous, and would go a long way to explaining the minor problems you're having with the observer: you don't know what he's supposed to do, so he probably doesn't either.

On February 07 2010 08:30 Carnac wrote:

This should be taken care of above all imho. Who has a hot sister he can make volunteer?

On February 07 2010 08:28 Attritive wrote:
Chill's questions were about this: "The observer is as important as the commentators in a cast like this" not the issue of prewatching. If the casters watched the game beforehand it would add to the experience probably, not detract. The idea I was disagreeing with was the one presented by Chill's passive aggressive questions, that is: the observer doesn't bring any dynamics to the presentation or the dramatics/excitement of the presentation. That is wrong and pretty ridiculous, and would go a long way to explaining the minor problems you're having with the observer: you don't know what he's supposed to do, so he probably doesn't either.

On February 07 2010 08:31 Chill wrote:

And I'm waiting to hear how the observer brings surprise and excitement to the cast. Go ahead, fill me in. I'm not being passive-agressive because I am answering your questions directly and you are not answering mine.

The way you and your fellow admins handle this site disgusts me. You're a bunch of children and it made me feel nice to make fun of you.

On February 07 2010 08:31 Chill wrote:

And I'm waiting to hear how the observer brings surprise and excitement to the cast. Go ahead, fill me in. I'm not being passive-agressive because I am answering your questions directly and you are not answering mine.

On February 07 2010 08:31 Too_MuchZerg wrote:
Remember that its different to observe replay (because you can see what units are been made and such) than "live" game.

Oh and those guys who says observers shouldn't prewatch games. Okay here is easy fix for it --> 1. TL says observers won't prewatch games. 2. They do still 3. Nobody knows.

On February 07 2010 08:33 Attritive wrote:

When I run a tournament and broadcast it online for sponsors and fans, I'll be happy to answer questions you pose about failures on my part.

On February 07 2010 08:33 Attritive wrote:


When I run a tournament and broadcast it online for sponsors and fans, I'll be happy to answer questions you pose about failures on my part.

On February 07 2010 08:33 Attritive wrote:


When I run a tournament and broadcast it online for sponsors and fans, I'll be happy to answer questions you pose about failures on my part.

On February 07 2010 08:37 MorroW wrote:
agree with OP, the cameraman is defiantly the biggest and only let down of tsl so far

edit: actually im being too harsh here. i think its good but it could been better was what i was meant to say :p

On February 07 2010 08:35 Chill wrote:

Ok, you can take this as a warning now too. Stay out of this thread unless you have any comments we can use to get tangible solutions from.

The way you and your fellow admins handle this site disgusts me. You're a bunch of children and it made me feel nice to make fun of you.

On February 07 2010 08:40 pioneer8 wrote:
Also, from a theatrical point of view, the entire cast loses the dramatic irony as well, from the commentators so often talking about something else, while the observer is doing his own thing. I understand that the observer with this stream has to follow what the commentators are saying and not the other way around, but that isnt an insumountable obstacle to a cohesive team of commentators and observers. The fact is, the commentators rarely miss things, and the observer frequently does. Perhaps someone should volunteer to be a dedicated observer?

On February 07 2010 08:40 pioneer8 wrote:
Also, from a theatrical point of view, the entire cast loses the dramatic irony as well, from the commentators so often talking about something else, while the observer is doing his own thing. I understand that the observer with this stream has to follow what the commentators are saying and not the other way around, but that isnt an insumountable obstacle to a cohesive team of commentators and observers. The fact is, the commentators rarely miss things, and the observer frequently does. Perhaps someone should volunteer to be a dedicated observer?

On February 07 2010 08:41 Attritive wrote:


Why?

On February 07 2010 08:49 pioneer8 wrote:
Dramatic irony is the audience learning things that the players do not and the excitement it generates.

I can think of times for example, theres a big battle going on and the obs is only focused on the vulture harass at a base (which ends up doing massive damage), but the commentators are focussed dead set on the battle. Instead of streaming back and forth between the battle and the vultures, the obs seemed like he wasnt paying attention at all and was dead set in his own little world. This has happened so many times, that is why i am commenting on this. It has hapened from Idra vs Nony till today, so many times.

On February 07 2010 08:57 Hot_Bid wrote:
That's not his point. He's arguing that we should remove obs pre-watching because he believes it will lead to more obs-caster cohesion, when all I see from that is more obsing errors like in JF-Terran where the obs AND casters both miss things.

His other suggestions were:
1. Remove obs pre-watching.
2. Make it like Korean broadcasts, its easy.
3. Figure out a way to fullscreen obs (completely ignore intro, player videos, overlays, etc).

Of course we (casters and obs) can obviously work on looking at the minimap more. But not pre-watching, fullscreeing the obs, and "easily making it like Korean broadcasts" are all impossible.

On February 07 2010 08:59 blueblimp wrote:
I think the observing is OK but I find it's pretty jarring when the obs is looking at one thing and the casters at another (and often both of those events are important, so it's not obvious which should be looked at). Sorry if there's an answer in the thread already, but would it be possible to have the obs stream video to the commentators, and then have them re-stream the video? I honestly think this alone would silence most complaints about the observing.

On February 07 2010 08:59 blueblimp wrote:
I think the observing is OK but I find it's pretty jarring when the obs is looking at one thing and the casters at another (and often both of those events are important, so it's not obvious which should be looked at). Sorry if there's an answer in the thread already, but would it be possible to have the obs stream video to the commentators, and then have them re-stream the video? I honestly think this alone would silence most complaints about the observing.

Edit: I should add that I think the observer generally misses fewer events than the commentators do, so I think this would help out the commentary as well.

On February 07 2010 08:59 blueblimp wrote:
I think the observing is OK but I find it's pretty jarring when the obs is looking at one thing and the casters at another (and often both of those events are important, so it's not obvious which should be looked at). Sorry if there's an answer in the thread already, but would it be possible to have the obs stream video to the commentators, and then have them re-stream the video? I honestly think this alone would silence most complaints about the observing.

On February 07 2010 06:22 Kerl wrote:
I really love the Pokerstrategy TSL and all the Broadcasting, but I become really really angry because of the bad control from the Broadcast. I have to guess every action in the Game from the minimap, because u cant see anything interessting.

Please get this done by someone who has better control of his monitor and his minimap. This really decreases the quality of the broadcast by far!

On February 07 2010 09:03 iCCup.Raelcun wrote:


It would seriously detract from the quality of the video and the commentating the fact that the commentators are free to look around at their own volition means they can catch things the obs doesnt and the other way around.

On February 07 2010 09:06 blueblimp wrote:


I personally wouldn't mind lower video quality. Most of us here are used to watching re-streamed starcraft video, from watching live pro games, so I'd guess that many people wouldn't mind.

As far as the the commentators catching things the obs doesn't, I think this is rare enough that it isn't a big deal. The commentators are still free to look at the minimap and request the obs to view certain places (like they do already).

On February 07 2010 09:05 Carnac wrote:

I understand that it can be a bit weird at times, when you are really used to see it fully "in sync". But, real slip-ups from either the obs or the casters aside (which can never be 100% avoided), don't you think it actually gives you more info than you could get from a single source? Personally I actually enjoy it when I watch TSL, simply because I don't need to be 100% told what's going on, I know SC well enough myself. Might be different for other people though.

On February 07 2010 09:10 Carnac wrote:

The delay with someone encoding the game view, sending it to the casters and them requesting adjustments makes it impossible on the internet.

On February 07 2010 09:18 Scooge wrote:
The obs today was horrible and ruined the broadcast for me. From showing 2 zealots and a dragoon attacking a defended expansion instead of a huge attack on the other side of the map to missing recalls, to not showing tech. It's endless.

The problem isn't watching the game beforehand, it's that these obs are not good players. It's very easy to observe well when you know important aspects of a build / matchup. You know to show new gateways being added because you understand the timing of the build and how crucial it is, or you click on units to show upgrades, show tech decisions at critical time, yada yada. It syncs with the commentators because they're good players and will be discussing these things at around the same time.

Maybe we're spoiled because 80% of this site is about Korean pro-gaming and they do a much better job, but I don't think it's too much to ask. You could argue the observer is a lot more important than the commentators and TSL went to great effort to get good commentators so why wasn't the same effort put into securing decent observers?

On February 07 2010 09:18 Scooge wrote:
The obs today was horrible and ruined the broadcast for me. From showing 2 zealots and a dragoon attacking a defended expansion instead of a huge attack on the other side of the map to missing recalls, to not showing tech. It's endless.

The problem isn't watching the game beforehand, it's that these obs are not good players. It's very easy to observe well when you know important aspects of a build / matchup. You know to show new gateways being added because you understand the timing of the build and how crucial it is, or you click on units to show upgrades, show tech decisions at critical time, yada yada. It syncs with the commentators because they're good players and will be discussing these things at around the same time.

Maybe we're spoiled because 80% of this site is about Korean pro-gaming and they do a much better job, but I don't think it's too much to ask. You could argue the observer is a lot more important than the commentators and TSL went to great effort to get good commentators so why wasn't the same effort put into securing decent observers?

On February 07 2010 09:18 Scooge wrote:
The obs today was horrible and ruined the broadcast for me. From showing 2 zealots and a dragoon attacking a defended expansion instead of a huge attack on the other side of the map to missing recalls, to not showing tech. It's endless.

The problem isn't watching the game beforehand, it's that these obs are not good players. It's very easy to observe well when you know important aspects of a build / matchup. You know to show new gateways being added because you understand the timing of the build and how crucial it is, or you click on units to show upgrades, show tech decisions at critical time, yada yada. It syncs with the commentators because they're good players and will be discussing these things at around the same time.

Maybe we're spoiled because 80% of this site is about Korean pro-gaming and they do a much better job, but I don't think it's too much to ask. You could argue the observer is a lot more important than the commentators and TSL went to great effort to get good commentators so why wasn't the same effort put into securing decent observers?

At least you're not short on excuses and whining!

My post there was clearly a sarcastic response to pioneer8 saying "just be like the Korean broadcasts" which is obviously just an impossible wish. I never whined and made excuses. Obviously we can't perfectly recreate a pro Korean broadcast when we don't have everyone in the same studio, we aren't in the same physical location as the players, and we don't have the same resources (salary, experience, etc).

That was why I made that post -- pioneer8 asking for a Korean broadcast is the same as asking for any of these other unattainable things at the time.

I don't know how you interpret that as making excuses or whining, because I did none of those. Of course we aim at making it as professional as possible, but we can only do so much. Maybe TSL6 will be as good as a Korean broadcast. But stating "why not like Korean broadcast" like pioneer8 did in that thread is what prompted my response.

I don't appreciate this PM from you because it not only misinterprets my response but is generally condescending and insulting.

I was trying to be condescending and insulting. You were whining and making excuses, however "sarcastic" you want to call it. The way you and your fellow admins handle this site disgusts me. You're a bunch of children and it made me feel nice to make fun of you.

On February 07 2010 09:42 SayaSP wrote:
Interesting. You guys should stop watching and wait for reps ya?

On February 07 2010 09:29 pioneer8 wrote:

Though i wouldnt say it ruined the broacast, its been happening since the begining. I know i'm not the only one who notices this. With competent observers it wouldnt be neccesary to prewatch anyway.

On February 07 2010 09:35 Hot_Bid wrote:

Without a central physical studio there's only so many ways we can feasibly broadcast a tournament over the internet. It's such a highly specialized job that I'd argue Intrigue and Carnac are the best and most experienced people at this in the entire world right now. So your suggestion that we just "go find someone better" is impossible.

On February 07 2010 09:43 zatic wrote:

No reps sorry. What they can do however is rewatch the MSL finals instead of our amateur event.

On February 07 2010 09:50 pioneer8 wrote:

I would argue that that is not true. Thinking of the neccessities to stream the games with commentary over them, it doesnt seem very complicated. The commentators need only ventrilo, and a chat room. On the visual aspect you have the "production" screens and fancy effects, and the game stream itself. A dedicated observer streaming the game feed is certainly feasible, and the delay between the main stream (the final product being streamed to the audience) and the observer's stream would be minimal, an definately managable, with sufficient testing and troubleshooting to tweak out the delay.

It's definately not imossible, and proabably wouldnt be that hard. I'm sure there would be dozens of highly adequate observers that would volunteer to do it.

On February 07 2010 09:50 pioneer8 wrote:




I would argue that that is not true. Thinking of the neccessities to stream the games with commentary over them, it doesnt seem very complicated. The commentators need only ventrilo, and a chat room. On the visual aspect you have the "production" screens and fancy effects, and the game stream itself. A dedicated observer streaming the game feed is certainly feasible, and the delay between the main stream (the final product being streamed to the audience) and the observer's stream would be minimal, an definately managable, with sufficient testing and troubleshooting to tweak out the delay.

It's definately not imossible, and proabably wouldnt be that hard. I'm sure there would be dozens of highly adequate observers that would volunteer to do it.

On February 07 2010 09:50 pioneer8 wrote:

I would argue that that is not true. Thinking of the neccessities to stream the games with commentary over them, it doesnt seem very complicated. The commentators need only ventrilo, and a chat room. On the visual aspect you have the "production" screens and fancy effects, and the game stream itself. A dedicated observer streaming the game feed is certainly feasible, and the delay between the main stream (the final product being streamed to the audience) and the observer's stream would be minimal, an definately managable, with sufficient testing and troubleshooting to tweak out the delay.

It's definately not imossible, and proabably wouldnt be that hard. I'm sure there would be dozens of highly adequate observers that would volunteer to do it.

On February 07 2010 09:37 Hot_Bid wrote:
Attritive has been banned for the following PM exchange with me:

Attritive PM to me:

My PM to Attritive:

Attritive PM to me:

On February 07 2010 10:36 zatic wrote:
pioneer: Maybe we have a different understanding what a 'stream' is. We use one, the one everyone is watching.

Anyway, I wasn't really serious since you have no idea what you are talking about. Again, if you have a complete and doable solution I'd be happy to hear it. Just don't use words like "stream" or "feed", but describe the exact setup, what hardware and what software, which codecs, what kind of connection, etc you would use to make this happen.

On February 07 2010 11:16 Rabbet wrote:
I prefer the Korean style of casting or actually being an observer in a game live, in that you don't know what units are being queued in factories/starports/robos/hatcheries and gateways etc. I think that knowing when things are going to pop takes away from the excitement of the game. Watching in the replay style is very similar to watching a live stream, but in a live stream you have no clue as to what the other player is doing so the intensity can build on the unknown. In these replay observed/commented games I can really tell quite early who has the upper hand with all the knowledge being presented by the observer. The point really came across during the game TT1 vs. White-Ra on Destination where White-Ra has his DT closing in on TT1's base and the observer went to the robotics facility to see if Kabal has an observer queued. He did and it ruined the moment for me because we knew White-Ra's attack was a failure well before it actually failed. It also ruined the nice defense of Kabal, as we all knew it was coming a good 20 seconds before anything happened. I find that with all the information and experience with all the build orders, our knowledge of the players and the strategies they use, the map preferences/imbalances etc. it would be nice to not know at least one element of the game.

Oh and the recall to 3 oclock Terran vs JF both the commentators and observer missed it and I find that kind of disappointing. I mean the big blob of blue was there for like 3 minutes before there was any recognition of the recall.

On February 07 2010 11:48 pioneer8 wrote:
IE, if i was going to spoonfeed you and tell you exactly what to do, what programs and codecs to use, you might use different ones and it might confuse you. What i am trying to explain to you is a fundamental aspect of live broadcasting that you can apply on your own if you wish.

On February 07 2010 11:48 pioneer8 wrote:
IE, if i was going to spoonfeed you and tell you exactly what to do, what programs and codecs to use, you might use different ones and it might confuse you. What i am trying to explain to you is a fundamental aspect of live broadcasting that you can apply on your own if you wish.

On February 07 2010 14:04 vol wrote:
/facepalm at this thread...

I rarely ever post but I can't believe the ridiculous amount of whining going on here. I just want to say a HUGE THANK YOU!!! to all the TL admins and people that put their time and effort into organizing this tournament for OUR entertainment... as well as furthering the sport that we all love.

EVERYONE has off days and we can't expect perfection at all times from everyone involved. People just need to take a step back and look at all the things these guys are providing to us for little to no personal gain. I am sure there are many people behind the scenes working to make this happen that never even get recognition. So to those people as well I want to say thanks for all your hard work and I will look forward to some more great games in this TSL.

On February 07 2010 09:35 Hot_Bid wrote:

It's not "endless," because its the same obs for the other broadcasts. Are you saying the others were ruined too?

On February 07 2010 12:14 pioneer8 wrote:
What streaming software do you use now? The same software you use now can most likely do this. You are just using two video streams and one audio server in my variation with the dedicated observer, rather than one video stream and one audio server which you use now, where the observer also handles the production. The producer would recieve the video stream from the observer, who is streaming the game, and tweak the delay between the observer's stream and and the final product that gos to the audience, which is caused by the delay between the observer's stream and the producer taking less time than the observer's stream to the commentators, who also have to stream through the ventrilo server to the producer.

edit : fixed

On February 07 2010 14:26 Scooge wrote:

What? Re-read what you quoted. The list of errors by the observer in THIS broadcast was endless. There were a few issues in previous broadcasts, but none that compare to the amount of important things the observer missed today.

Instead of circling the wagon and calling the whole staff to defend what was a horrible job observing today, just admit it was bad and move on?

I don't think you understand how difficult a job it is observing. We can't just "go out and find a professional observer" because those don't exist. Korean obs ONLY OBS. Our obs has to do pre-testing, hours of video prep, sound checks, and knowledge how to run wirecast and be free every day of broadcast. If you think we can just go find a person to do this you are sorely mistaken, it requires a large amount of dedication, trust, experience, and training to make this work.

Without a central physical studio there's only so many ways we can feasibly broadcast a tournament over the internet. It's such a highly specialized job that I'd argue Intrigue and Carnac are the best and most experienced people at this in the entire world right now. So your suggestion that we just "go find someone better" is impossible.

Frankly as a viewer with no attachment to the TSL besides it being entertainment, and not knowing anyone involved in it, I don't care about the sob story of the snow storm. It was bad today, I'm hoping it won't be as bad in the future. That's all I care about.

Instead of taking a very combative tone, trying to argue each post point by point, a reply like this would have made everyone complaining feel much better (and cut this down by 5 pages too):

"We had something come up at the last second today and had to swap out observers. We know the broadcast wasn't up to our usual standard. We're putting in steps so this doesn't happen again." You didn't admit anything beyond what you've already said and everyone walks away feeling satisfied.

And the only step you would have put in place was having all the observers watch the game pre-broadcast just incase.

On February 07 2010 12:05 PianoMan wrote:
Pioneer everyone understands what you want them to do, but rather than spoonfeed you the precise reasons why, I'll keep it simple so you don't confuse yourself and just say that they're not planning to do it that way for a multitude of reasons.

P i a n o M a n

On February 07 2010 17:06 Xeris wrote:
O_O don't listen to these morons talking shit.

On February 07 2010 18:10 L_Master wrote:
The one thing I'm curious about is that it seems to be generally agreed that the Korean way, where the commentators are basically commentating what the obs show them is most ideal. If thats correct, why doesn't TSL do it this way, I'm guessing its just more complicated technically?

Just curious.

On February 07 2010 14:16 DrivE wrote:

I totally agree. The TSL admins have done a great job so far.

On February 07 2010 18:29 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
obs missing stuff is understandable and fine honestly. Carnac filled in and that is great of him, back off guys.

But I do feel I need to complain:

Artosis and Tasteless are my two favorite commentators as a duo. I think they balance each other and offer an exciting mix of entertainment and insight (for the most part). But I feel like this TSL they have performed abnormally sub-par. And I don't intend this to be anything but a constructive criticism, they are the best, they are here to stay and I think this is all for the best as is.

However.

Barring the excuse that they are up at an ungodly hour casting TSL I feel robbed. Tasteless constantly over enthusiastically discusses moments were clearly it DOESN'T matter almost at all and has little or no impact on the actual game. Great right? Why am I being so nitpicky? Well it happens frequently enough and this really is a uncommon tendency by him in particular. There are many examples but one that comes to mind is in game 1 of jf vs terran at the 36 min mark he goes on and on about a 1 tank drop at the top left base when jf has something like 6 bases vs terran's 1.5 or so.. it REALLY doesn't matter at all and in fact the game ends like a minute later. This is about as specific as I want to get, in general my complaint is that the duo seems really offgame and if they aren't emotionally reacting at proper times they are discussing things late, not at all or irrelevantly.

If someone wants to really debate me on this I will go with the minute by minute analysis of points where the commentating was really bad. Again, I bring this up NOT because I think tasteless or artosis should be fired or removed but because I KNOW they can do better and I think the excuse "this was done at a bad hour for them" is tired and weak.

This is TSL. If they are tired and weak and there is no way for them to come prepared/delay the cast to a more normal hour for them then we need to plan better in the future or take steps to see them better rested OR SOMETHING. I KNOW I am not alone on this.

Artosis and tasteless are my friends and they are great guys.. I hope this isn't taken as an attack on them because it honestly isn't. They do this professionally and I hope they can hear this as a critical assessment of their professional work on this particular project. If I come off as anything else I will revise/reword or delete as is necessary.. but for now I hope something constructive can be taken from this.

Thoughts?

PS: I hate to pick on Nick as my sole example, artosis is off his game too but I didn't think a big ass post with x, y and z reasons for why they aren't doing well would be helpful. If I am wrong, as I said, I will correct this.

On February 07 2010 18:29 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
obs missing stuff is understandable and fine honestly. Carnac filled in and that is great of him, back off guys.

But I do feel I need to complain:

Artosis and Tasteless are my two favorite commentators as a duo. I think they balance each other and offer an exciting mix of entertainment and insight (for the most part). But I feel like this TSL they have performed abnormally sub-par. And I don't intend this to be anything but a constructive criticism, they are the best, they are here to stay and I think this is all for the best as is.

However.

Barring the excuse that they are up at an ungodly hour casting TSL I feel robbed. Tasteless constantly over enthusiastically discusses moments were clearly it DOESN'T matter almost at all and has little or no impact on the actual game. Great right? Why am I being so nitpicky? Well it happens frequently enough and this really is a uncommon tendency by him in particular. There are many examples but one that comes to mind is in game 1 of jf vs terran at the 36 min mark he goes on and on about a 1 tank drop at the top left base when jf has something like 6 bases vs terran's 1.5 or so.. it REALLY doesn't matter at all and in fact the game ends like a minute later. This is about as specific as I want to get, in general my complaint is that the duo seems really offgame and if they aren't emotionally reacting at proper times they are discussing things late, not at all or irrelevantly.

If someone wants to really debate me on this I will go with the minute by minute analysis of points where the commentating was really bad. Again, I bring this up NOT because I think tasteless or artosis should be fired or removed but because I KNOW they can do better and I think the excuse "this was done at a bad hour for them" is tired and weak.

This is TSL. If they are tired and weak and there is no way for them to come prepared/delay the cast to a more normal hour for them then we need to plan better in the future or take steps to see them better rested OR SOMETHING. I KNOW I am not alone on this.

Artosis and tasteless are my friends and they are great guys.. I hope this isn't taken as an attack on them because it honestly isn't. They do this professionally and I hope they can hear this as a critical assessment of their professional work on this particular project. If I come off as anything else I will revise/reword or delete as is necessary.. but for now I hope something constructive can be taken from this.

Thoughts?

PS: I hate to pick on Nick as my sole example, artosis is off his game too but I didn't think a big ass post with x, y and z reasons for why they aren't doing well would be helpful. If I am wrong, as I said, I will correct this.

On February 07 2010 19:44 LaLuSh wrote:


I agree with this. I was actually going to write a post about it myself since I thought Carnac (and intrigue in previous casts) have handled themselves much better than Artosis and Tasteless, who frequently miss stuff and go off on sc2gg-esque rants that make no sense whatsoever.

I think much of it stems from them being forced to commentate while controlling their own obs screens. It means they have to do three things at once, one of which is talking in a coherent manner (which usually screws up the other parts as it's pretty much impossible to multitask well while talking and trying to sound coherent and insightful).

You can really notice how they slack off watching the minimap, and slack off thinking about strategical implications while they are talking. The reason they do worse than Chill and day[9], I think, is because Tasteless and Artosis often compete about geting their voice and opinions out there. They like to play off eachother, go back and forth in quick exchanges, interrupt eachother etc... Which means they're actually trying to do 4 things at once.

When Chill and day[9] cast, one of them usually goes on a one minute (insightful) rant while the other stays passive and cool and updates himself on the current state of the game. Also the person staying silent seems to check the minimap much better than when Artosis and Tasteless cast. Artosis and Tasteless just never shut up enough to give eachother breathing space. As a result they end up sounding like D-players when talking about how huge of an advantage a player has when, simultaneously, the observer is showing the other player's probes/scvs being wiped out (two, three minutes later they notice something isn't adding up, and this pretty much happens every game). They often completely miss stuff when there's action going on in two places at the same time.

They really need to stop to reflect at certain points in the game. One of them needs to create the time and breathing room for the other to be able to just take a minute and reflect about what is actually happening in the game. When Chill and day[9] cast, one of them is always alerting the other of something that might be happening simultaneously, as it's almost impossible for the one talking to be focused and aware enough to watch for other things happening simultaneously.

I really enjoy listening to and watching Tasteless & Artosis cast. But they're rusty when it comes to casting while observing. The dynamics between the two are perfect for "proper" casts, with professional observers, a studio, and a real production team backing them. But it's just not suited for casts where they have to do these many things simultaneously.

On February 07 2010 23:26 G.s)NarutO wrote:
I didn't read all 9 pages but I read that someone mentioned Korean commentators / observers being a lot better. Do you actually know how the observing / commentary works in Korea? As far as I remember, the commentators comment on the things the observer shows. In TSL2 Carnac TRIES to show what Artosis/Tasteless or Chill/Day[9] say... its much harder.

About missing stuff; even the Korean observers miss stuff from time to time... it just happens. It wasn't all that terrible to be honest.

On February 07 2010 19:15 rapture wrote:
wow i can't believe this has come to page 8 already, but okay...

1. although obs performance yesterday wasn't as good as before (reasons discussed already) i think obs still did an okay job. overall i wouldn't complain about the observing this TSL - you are doing a great! the only possibility to do it better would be a live show in a studio (like ESL, MBC, OSL)

2. i have to agree with incontrol. artosis & tasteless aren't casting their a-level. they are still doing okay, but compared to their live event casts (absolutely fabulous) their tsl cast is sloppy and more or less unfunny i guess. one can really hear their tiredness while casting. my point is they are still doing good but could do way better.


about they caster/observer thingi got some suggestions/questions:

What the casters setup? Do they have 1 or 2 screens? i think it would be best to have bw on screen 1 and the observers view on screen 2. (only valid for the tasteless&artosis cast, cause 2 screens per (1) caster will be too much)

On February 07 2010 23:18 DeLoAdEr wrote:
in my opinion it would be nice if the casters would see the exact same screen the viewers or observer does. otherwise im very satisfied with the commentary/obsing.

just a quick thought, but wouldn't it suffice to let the casters just watch the stream and put them in vent with the streamer guy?

On February 08 2010 01:06 meathook wrote:
Maybe someone said this already, but anyway, I want to add my two cents:

Wouldn't the most easy way to solve this be for the person who is controlling the screen record a VOD, then send it to the casters and let them commentate based on that? I am not aware of all the variables, but it seems to be the most efficient solution, imo.

Also, LOL at first five pages with that guy Attrictive or whatever... awesome thread.

On February 07 2010 18:29 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
obs missing stuff is understandable and fine honestly. Carnac filled in and that is great of him, back off guys.

But I do feel I need to complain:

Artosis and Tasteless are my two favorite commentators as a duo. I think they balance each other and offer an exciting mix of entertainment and insight (for the most part). But I feel like this TSL they have performed abnormally sub-par. And I don't intend this to be anything but a constructive criticism, they are the best, they are here to stay and I think this is all for the best as is.

However.

Barring the excuse that they are up at an ungodly hour casting TSL I feel robbed. Tasteless constantly over enthusiastically discusses moments were clearly it DOESN'T matter almost at all and has little or no impact on the actual game. Great right? Why am I being so nitpicky? Well it happens frequently enough and this really is a uncommon tendency by him in particular. There are many examples but one that comes to mind is in game 1 of jf vs terran at the 36 min mark he goes on and on about a 1 tank drop at the top left base when jf has something like 6 bases vs terran's 1.5 or so.. it REALLY doesn't matter at all and in fact the game ends like a minute later. This is about as specific as I want to get, in general my complaint is that the duo seems really offgame and if they aren't emotionally reacting at proper times they are discussing things late, not at all or irrelevantly.

If someone wants to really debate me on this I will go with the minute by minute analysis of points where the commentating was really bad. Again, I bring this up NOT because I think tasteless or artosis should be fired or removed but because I KNOW they can do better and I think the excuse "this was done at a bad hour for them" is tired and weak.

This is TSL. If they are tired and weak and there is no way for them to come prepared/delay the cast to a more normal hour for them then we need to plan better in the future or take steps to see them better rested OR SOMETHING. I KNOW I am not alone on this.

Artosis and tasteless are my friends and they are great guys.. I hope this isn't taken as an attack on them because it honestly isn't. They do this professionally and I hope they can hear this as a critical assessment of their professional work on this particular project. If I come off as anything else I will revise/reword or delete as is necessary.. but for now I hope something constructive can be taken from this.

Thoughts?

PS: I hate to pick on Nick as my sole example, artosis is off his game too but I didn't think a big ass post with x, y and z reasons for why they aren't doing well would be helpful. If I am wrong, as I said, I will correct this.

PPS: some random bitching as I watch more vods + Show Spoiler +

On February 08 2010 03:15 ProoM wrote:
White-Ra vs TT1 on FS, reaver raping nexus/probes. After ~3 minutes, reaver is still there, tastosis- WE HAVE A REAVER DROP!!!", all at vent laugthed ^^.

On February 07 2010 22:27 seppolevne wrote:
I think what would help out Artosis and Tasteless would be to watch the game separately. By watching it together on one screen, they are limited to what one of them is looking at, instead of each looking at different things. They could still cast in the same room, which I think adds to the 'dual commentary' part of it, but each with their own computer. That way when one of them is talking about upgrades the other could be looking for raids/tech etc. and they wouldn't miss as much.

On February 07 2010 17:40 Cambium wrote:
Just wondering, is anyone (rich, casters, obs, organizers) getting paid for doing all this work?

On February 08 2010 04:09 1992 wrote:
yeah they get $100 per game casted

On February 08 2010 05:52 pioneer8 wrote:
The observer has alot of room for improvement.

Today definately is better than usual, but there's still room for improvement.

On February 07 2010 07:38 pioneer8 wrote:
I've been watching the entire TSL2 and the observer has been poor in every game. It would be great if they replaced the current observer with someone who has deep game knowledge, and actually listens to what the commentators are saying while they observe the map.

On February 08 2010 06:43 Scooge wrote:
This is horrible. To have to follow scourge chasing a dropship on the minimap because the observer is sitting over a cliff with nothing on it for over 5 seconds is just frustrating.

On February 08 2010 04:09 1992 wrote:
yeah they get $100 per game casted

On February 08 2010 07:40 aqui wrote:
Obs and commentators were gr8 today.

On February 08 2010 04:09 1992 wrote:
yeah they get $100 per game casted

---

User was warned for this post

On February 08 2010 07:31 Carnac wrote:

Way to make things up

On February 07 2010 07:48 pioneer8 wrote:
I'll compare with the Korean observers. They observe the map in a calm, steady way, clicking certain buildings and units, and moving to certain areas that are important as the game progresses. They highlight certain areas, and work as a team with the commentators to help the people better watch and understand the game.


For the TSL in general, not just this set, I cannot list the number of times the observer has been looking somewhere completely different for 30 seconds, while the commentators are talking and philosophizing about something else.


Thanks guys, please get someone else or make improvements on the one now... as i said, my only real complaint with this awesome tourney.

Actually, if it hadn't been for Carnac's sick observing we would have been missing a lot of the stuff that the commentators miss. The reaver drop that took out 12, the second reaver attempt at White-Ra's nat, basically everything that happened in the game on Outsider... All of that stuff we wouldn't have seen. I agree that it makes Nick and Dan sound dumb though. Maybe they should just concentrate on talking while Carnac concentrates on obsing.

On February 08 2010 12:48 pioneer8 wrote:
The attitude of most of the TL guys has been that peoples critcism, (a lot of us, and im sure a lot who havent chimed in) is baseless and unappreciative, an any call to improve is like a flame and ridiculous.

On February 08 2010 12:48 pioneer8 wrote:
Well, you can think what you want of me personally, but the observer definately could improve. He's explained that he's drudged in the production aspect as well as the obs, so i symathize with him. Still doesn't change the fact that he misses something nearly every game. The observer isnt graceful in the way that he moves around and looks at things and its not easy on the eyes as it could be. He seems to miss so much stuff and it seems like hes not watching the game at times.

For example, mostof Mondragon's epic plagues that the commentators were going nuts over were not even cought on camera. Is the observer watching the game?

Or is he just trying to remember what happened in the pre-watch so he won't miss anying. (which he ends up doing anyway because it seems like he isnt watching the game)

The attitude of most of the TL guys has been that peoples critcism, (a lot of us, and im sure a lot who havent chimed in) is baseless and unappreciative, an any call to improve is like a flame and ridiculous.

I am here supporting you guys, and your sponsor by watching the cast, checking out the sponsors website, and trying to draw attention to the one lacking aspect of the tournament, and instead of just accepting it as an issue and being objective, you act like its irrelevant and that there is no room for improvement.

Carnac DEFINATELY did better than usual, but i still think he can be better. When you guys can fluidly obs a game without missing things in every single game (even after pre-watching, which i have exlplained why i feel is bad), i will congratulate and thank you tenfold, but until then, i want to give my two cents.

On February 08 2010 13:44 pioneer8 wrote:
I'm not exagerating anything or specifically looking for errors. I've felt this way since the begining of the TSL2. This thread simply acknowledged that other people felt similarly as i did. I have no personal beef against Carnac or any of you. Go back and watch Mondy vs Brat on outsider. He missed 2 big plagues in that game.

It is not "obsing perfection" i am after, or Korean standards. It's the fact that amatuer youtube casters like DiggitySC and Cholera can obs replays that are more enjoyable to watch.

As i said, your rational is that you believe it's impossible to improve at this point. If your going to threaten to ban me for suggesting differently, i'll go away, as it's impossible to have a proper argument with someone if you cannot agree upon the basic facts. IE, you calling what i believe are facts to be exagerations.

Bye for now.