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On February 07 2010 09:35 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2010 09:18 Scooge wrote:
The obs today was horrible and ruined the broadcast for me. From showing 2 zealots and a dragoon attacking a defended expansion instead of a huge attack on the other side of the map to missing recalls, to not showing tech. It's endless. It's not "endless," because its the same obs for the other broadcasts. Are you saying the others were ruined too?
What? Re-read what you quoted. The list of errors by the observer in THIS broadcast was endless. There were a few issues in previous broadcasts, but none that compare to the amount of important things the observer missed today.
Instead of circling the wagon and calling the whole staff to defend what was a horrible job observing today, just admit it was bad and move on? Frankly as a viewer with no attachment to the TSL besides it being entertainment, and not knowing anyone involved in it, I don't care about the sob story of the snow storm. It was bad today, I'm hoping it won't be as bad in the future. That's all I care about.
Edit:
This is what I mean by moving on:
Instead of taking a very combative tone, trying to argue each post point by point, a reply like this would have made everyone complaining feel much better (and cut this down by 5 pages too):
"We had something come up at the last second today and had to swap out observers. We know the broadcast wasn't up to our usual standard. We're putting in steps so this doesn't happen again."
You didn't admit anything beyond what you've already said and everyone walks away feeling satisfied. And the only step you would have put in place was having all the observers watch the game pre-broadcast just incase.
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Dude wooooooooooow. I can't believe this thread is 8 pages. When I started reading through it I thought "Oh it's probably like 4 pages of these two guys trolling and then 4 pages of everyone laughing that they got banned!" but nooooooo  . It's 8 pages of people actually bitching about tiny obs mistakes that really don't take much away from the game -_-.
TL you guys are so awesome, don't let tha haters bring you down!
Chill and Hot_Bid/Dre and Snoop in this video imo ^^^^. All the other mods are uhhh.. also gansta like this lol. IN MY MIND O_O
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On February 07 2010 12:14 pioneer8 wrote:
What streaming software do you use now? The same software you use now can most likely do this. You are just using two video streams and one audio server in my variation with the dedicated observer, rather than one video stream and one audio server which you use now, where the observer also handles the production. The producer would recieve the video stream from the observer, who is streaming the game, and tweak the delay between the observer's stream and and the final product that gos to the audience, which is caused by the delay between the observer's stream and the producer taking less time than the observer's stream to the commentators, who also have to stream through the ventrilo server to the producer.
edit : fixed
I was having trouble increasing my bench press, I was wondering if you had any advice. I'm currently doing a rippeto 5x5 full body routine with a Size-ON, No-Xplode, and Creatine Mono stack with a multi + fish oil daily. I'm eating over maintenance and I'm following the routine exactly but its been 4 days and my 145 bench press is where it was 4 days ago. What am I doing wrong?
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Pioneer, work in live theater for one day and after that tell me if you'd want 3 streams or 1 stream. I've done tech plenty of times, and I'll let you know right now that if you disliked the troubleshoot time when the audio went out today, times that by three if you want 3 streams. The more system, the longer to troubleshoot and fix. Is it perfect the way they have it? No, but it works. That's a live show.
(Also, re-watch the Korean VODs, even they miss things sometimes. It's easy just to forget about the mistakes in professional shows. It's an interesting phenomenon that the more professional of a show I've worked for the fewer mistakes friends in the audience will see regardless of whether it was a good or bad night. People see what they want to see.)
I have to say good job though I'd like it if the observer was better on Game 1, the others were fine. I know it was due to not watching the replay ahead of time and I hope that's a warning that it is necessary.
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Braavos36379 Posts
On February 07 2010 14:26 Scooge wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2010 09:35 Hot_Bid wrote:On February 07 2010 09:18 Scooge wrote:
The obs today was horrible and ruined the broadcast for me. From showing 2 zealots and a dragoon attacking a defended expansion instead of a huge attack on the other side of the map to missing recalls, to not showing tech. It's endless. It's not "endless," because its the same obs for the other broadcasts. Are you saying the others were ruined too? What? Re-read what you quoted. The list of errors by the observer in THIS broadcast was endless. There were a few issues in previous broadcasts, but none that compare to the amount of important things the observer missed today.
In the rest of your post you say much more about the observers and I was responding to that. This partial piece, taken out of context of the rest of your post, obviously looks illogical. You were arguing that the observers should be replaced by better players (which I responded to) and the entire point was the errors by the observer this time were fixable because the cause of those errors was something beyond our control.
However, you never had a problem with previous broadcasts obs, so its illogical for you to suddenly say that we need better players obsing and we didn't put effort into finding "pro obs" when its the same people doing the obs work as the previous times.
Instead of circling the wagon and calling the whole staff to defend what was a horrible job observing today, just admit it was bad and move on?
You conveniently ignore the rest of your post which I responded to. That's mainly what I was "defending" against.
1. You say obs are not good enough players and ask for better ones.
I respond by saying its the same obs every broadcast and you had no problems with the previous broadcasts, and that there's much more to being an obs than simple skill level. I also pointed out that the issues caused by the obs were not skill level related and the things the obs missed (the recall, etc) were not due to the skill level of the guys obsing, but rather the lack of pre-watching replays.
My post response:
+ Show Spoiler +This is simply not true. You are exaggerating. The only reason the JF-Terran obs missed things was because the matches were not pre-watched due to a snowstorm power outage. To say that these errors occurred because the obs "aren't good at Starcraft" is incredibly shortsighted. It's very easy to know all these things yet not do it perfectly in the heat of the moment.
Do you really think missing a recall or a large battle is because the obs didn't have a fundamental understanding of Starcraft? That he is just so bad, D---- player who doesn't understand that 150 v 150 pop armies or a gigantic recall is important? Obviously the obs just missed it on the minimap. This is not an game understanding issue.
In fact, the obs did a great job of showing important strategical things whenever the obs mentioend them or even beforehand, like 3 gates or double forge during Kabal's builds, or gas steals, proxy buildings, manner pylons, or JF re-pyloning his 2 proxy gates (and the SCV scouting them) in the JF-Terran series even though he never pre-watched them. The obs showed many things the casters missed. The only failing was the missed recall and battle in Game 1, and as I've said a million times, will not happen with good pre-watching prep.
2. You ask for "Korean pro-gaming" level production/broadcast value. You say this is "not that much to ask"
I respond with this:
I don't think you understand how difficult a job it is observing. We can't just "go out and find a professional observer" because those don't exist. Korean obs ONLY OBS. Our obs has to do pre-testing, hours of video prep, sound checks, and knowledge how to run wirecast and be free every day of broadcast. If you think we can just go find a person to do this you are sorely mistaken, it requires a large amount of dedication, trust, experience, and training to make this work.
Without a central physical studio there's only so many ways we can feasibly broadcast a tournament over the internet. It's such a highly specialized job that I'd argue Intrigue and Carnac are the best and most experienced people at this in the entire world right now. So your suggestion that we just "go find someone better" is impossible.
I took the time to explain and answer your criticisms, which I felt were unfair against my fellow staff member. Are you saying you'd rather me just "move on" and apologize and give some manufactured company line? If I see you post something stupid and illogical, I'm going to refute it. Sorry to hurt your feelings, don't be so sensitive.
Frankly as a viewer with no attachment to the TSL besides it being entertainment, and not knowing anyone involved in it, I don't care about the sob story of the snow storm. It was bad today, I'm hoping it won't be as bad in the future. That's all I care about.
Great that you don't care, you are such a cowboy. Others care -- we believe that explaining the reasons behind what caused the problems today helps our viewers and users to understand, instead of just saying "we'll do better" with no information.
Instead of taking a very combative tone, trying to argue each post point by point, a reply like this would have made everyone complaining feel much better (and cut this down by 5 pages too):
See my remark above about you being overly sensitive.
"We had something come up at the last second today and had to swap out observers. We know the broadcast wasn't up to our usual standard. We're putting in steps so this doesn't happen again." You didn't admit anything beyond what you've already said and everyone walks away feeling satisfied.
This would have been adequate if you didn't post a completely inane argument that not only attacked our obs irrelevant "skill levels" but also contained a tone of ridiculous entitlement -- do you really think it's "not too much to ask" for Korean broadcast level shows? Especially from a staff that is in its second broadcast tournament? That's ridiculous.
And the only step you would have put in place was having all the observers watch the game pre-broadcast just incase.
Agreed, we should have a backup obs pre-watch replays beforehand. Then again, the MSL should've had a backup power supply. If unpreparedness can happen to them, it can surely happen to us right? This is our second broadcast tournament -- we're still learning. Next time it will be better.
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Braavos36379 Posts
Scooge, the bottom line is if someone criticizes staff unfairly and stupidly (like I believe you did), I'm going to respond to it. Learn to be less sensitive.
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On February 07 2010 12:05 PianoMan wrote:
Pioneer everyone understands what you want them to do, but rather than spoonfeed you the precise reasons why, I'll keep it simple so you don't confuse yourself and just say that they're not planning to do it that way for a multitude of reasons.
P i a n o M a n
What is the point of that spaced out sig? Do you think it looks cool? Its obviously not gonna help anyone identify you. Its not like someone reading your post is thinking "OH MY GOD this post is orgasmic i wish I knew who wrote it, if only his name was written somewhere in the po-OH GOOD LORD IT IS AAA"
what the fuck
On topic, this time the obsing wasnt ideal, but usually its amazing so I cant complain.
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O_O don't listen to these morons talking shit.
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On February 07 2010 17:06 Xeris wrote:
O_O don't listen to these morons talking shit.
Yeah I find it hard to believe most of the people complaining have such low post counts. Most of them seem to think this kind of stuff is easy and that they could do better.. but honestly try casting a replay sometime watch it first even bet you'd do worse than Carnac did with no preparation.
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Not the best place or time and somewhat OT (and might have been explained before) :
Just wondering, is anyone (rich, casters, obs, organizers) getting paid for doing all this work?
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The one thing I'm curious about is that it seems to be generally agreed that the Korean way, where the commentators are basically commentating what the obs show them is most ideal. If thats correct, why doesn't TSL do it this way, I'm guessing its just more complicated technically?
Just curious.
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Sydney2287 Posts
On February 07 2010 18:10 L_Master wrote:
The one thing I'm curious about is that it seems to be generally agreed that the Korean way, where the commentators are basically commentating what the obs show them is most ideal. If thats correct, why doesn't TSL do it this way, I'm guessing its just more complicated technically?
Just curious.
This has been explained in the thread a few times. Yes it is because of the technical details that this doesn't happen.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
obs missing stuff is understandable and fine honestly. Carnac filled in and that is great of him, back off guys.
But I do feel I need to complain:
Artosis and Tasteless are my two favorite commentators as a duo. I think they balance each other and offer an exciting mix of entertainment and insight (for the most part). But I feel like this TSL they have performed abnormally sub-par. And I don't intend this to be anything but a constructive criticism, they are the best, they are here to stay and I think this is all for the best as is.
However.
Barring the excuse that they are up at an ungodly hour casting TSL I feel robbed. Tasteless constantly over enthusiastically discusses moments were clearly it DOESN'T matter almost at all and has little or no impact on the actual game. Great right? Why am I being so nitpicky? Well it happens frequently enough and this really is a uncommon tendency by him in particular. There are many examples but one that comes to mind is in game 1 of jf vs terran at the 36 min mark he goes on and on about a 1 tank drop at the top left base when jf has something like 6 bases vs terran's 1.5 or so.. it REALLY doesn't matter at all and in fact the game ends like a minute later. This is about as specific as I want to get, in general my complaint is that the duo seems really offgame and if they aren't emotionally reacting at proper times they are discussing things late, not at all or irrelevantly.
If someone wants to really debate me on this I will go with the minute by minute analysis of points where the commentating was really bad. Again, I bring this up NOT because I think tasteless or artosis should be fired or removed but because I KNOW they can do better and I think the excuse "this was done at a bad hour for them" is tired and weak.
This is TSL. If they are tired and weak and there is no way for them to come prepared/delay the cast to a more normal hour for them then we need to plan better in the future or take steps to see them better rested OR SOMETHING. I KNOW I am not alone on this.
Artosis and tasteless are my friends and they are great guys.. I hope this isn't taken as an attack on them because it honestly isn't. They do this professionally and I hope they can hear this as a critical assessment of their professional work on this particular project. If I come off as anything else I will revise/reword or delete as is necessary.. but for now I hope something constructive can be taken from this.
Thoughts?
PS: I hate to pick on Nick as my sole example, artosis is off his game too but I didn't think a big ass post with x, y and z reasons for why they aren't doing well would be helpful. If I am wrong, as I said, I will correct this.
PPS: some random bitching as I watch more vods + Show Spoiler +actually I think most glaring example is tasteless going on and on in the final jf/terran game about how the protoss is completely contained and cannot reinforce etc etc.. but he misses the like 9 gateways at the protoss expansion?
I know they were trying to hype the situation and make it seem like it isn't over but.. COMMON? Protoss was on 6 bases vs a terran with 3 and the game was REALLY over.
Then they go on about 3 tanks and 5 vultures fighting a mined out base while jf is busting the big contain wide open T_T
sigh
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On February 07 2010 14:16 DrivE wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2010 14:04 vol wrote:
/facepalm at this thread...
I rarely ever post but I can't believe the ridiculous amount of whining going on here. I just want to say a HUGE THANK YOU!!! to all the TL admins and people that put their time and effort into organizing this tournament for OUR entertainment... as well as furthering the sport that we all love.
EVERYONE has off days and we can't expect perfection at all times from everyone involved. People just need to take a step back and look at all the things these guys are providing to us for little to no personal gain. I am sure there are many people behind the scenes working to make this happen that never even get recognition. So to those people as well I want to say thanks for all your hard work and I will look forward to some more great games in this TSL. I totally agree. The TSL admins have done a great job so far.
Amen, man its like people think TL is a major broadcasting network or something. Its like 20ish people volunteer almost a absurd amount of time and effort FOR YOU. Its not OGN or MSL, they are not geting paid to do any of this. Constructive criticism is fine, but just crying that the cast today was not 100% perfect like it normally is. Thats just asinine.
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On February 07 2010 18:29 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
obs missing stuff is understandable and fine honestly. Carnac filled in and that is great of him, back off guys.
But I do feel I need to complain:
Artosis and Tasteless are my two favorite commentators as a duo. I think they balance each other and offer an exciting mix of entertainment and insight (for the most part). But I feel like this TSL they have performed abnormally sub-par. And I don't intend this to be anything but a constructive criticism, they are the best, they are here to stay and I think this is all for the best as is.
However.
Barring the excuse that they are up at an ungodly hour casting TSL I feel robbed. Tasteless constantly over enthusiastically discusses moments were clearly it DOESN'T matter almost at all and has little or no impact on the actual game. Great right? Why am I being so nitpicky? Well it happens frequently enough and this really is a uncommon tendency by him in particular. There are many examples but one that comes to mind is in game 1 of jf vs terran at the 36 min mark he goes on and on about a 1 tank drop at the top left base when jf has something like 6 bases vs terran's 1.5 or so.. it REALLY doesn't matter at all and in fact the game ends like a minute later. This is about as specific as I want to get, in general my complaint is that the duo seems really offgame and if they aren't emotionally reacting at proper times they are discussing things late, not at all or irrelevantly.
If someone wants to really debate me on this I will go with the minute by minute analysis of points where the commentating was really bad. Again, I bring this up NOT because I think tasteless or artosis should be fired or removed but because I KNOW they can do better and I think the excuse "this was done at a bad hour for them" is tired and weak.
This is TSL. If they are tired and weak and there is no way for them to come prepared/delay the cast to a more normal hour for them then we need to plan better in the future or take steps to see them better rested OR SOMETHING. I KNOW I am not alone on this.
Artosis and tasteless are my friends and they are great guys.. I hope this isn't taken as an attack on them because it honestly isn't. They do this professionally and I hope they can hear this as a critical assessment of their professional work on this particular project. If I come off as anything else I will revise/reword or delete as is necessary.. but for now I hope something constructive can be taken from this.
Thoughts?
PS: I hate to pick on Nick as my sole example, artosis is off his game too but I didn't think a big ass post with x, y and z reasons for why they aren't doing well would be helpful. If I am wrong, as I said, I will correct this.
Sorry this isnt very helpful but I gotta say THANK YOU for posing some constructive criticism in this thread. I'm not entirely sure if I agree with you or not but the way you've stated this is a million times better than all of the previous complaints.
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carnac and intrigue are awesome blossoms ^_^
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When I have children I'm going to teach them not to be ungrateful douche bags when they get something they want for free.
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wow i can't believe this has come to page 8 already, but okay...
1. although obs performance yesterday wasn't as good as before (reasons discussed already) i think obs still did an okay job. overall i wouldn't complain about the observing this TSL - you are doing a great! the only possibility to do it better would be a live show in a studio (like ESL, MBC, OSL)
2. i have to agree with incontrol. artosis & tasteless aren't casting their a-level. they are still doing okay, but compared to their live event casts (absolutely fabulous) their tsl cast is sloppy and more or less unfunny i guess. one can really hear their tiredness while casting. my point is they are still doing good but could do way better.
about they caster/observer thingi got some suggestions/questions:
What the casters setup? Do they have 1 or 2 screens? i think it would be best to have bw on screen 1 and the observers view on screen 2. (only valid for the tasteless&artosis cast, cause 2 screens per (1) caster will be too much)
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Not a lot of people complained before the last broadcast, and Carnac explained why he wasn't up to his best in these particular games. And even then, he showed some important parts the casters missed and told them about it.
I don´t see a problem for future casts, but I hope Tasteless and Artosis are a little less tired next time (I know it´s difficult).
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EPT
