EPTThe sc2 community and gay bashing - Page 7
| Forum Index > TL Community |
Empyrean
16962 Posts
| ||
|
turdburgler
England6749 Posts
On October 28 2011 11:22 WinByDefault wrote: The problem isn't with the word "gay", it's with the context it is used in. I have yet to meet a homosexual that had a problem being called gay. The problem arises with using "gay" as an insult. This implies that being gay is something that you should be ashamed of, that it is a bad thing. This is where the homophobia arises, not simply in the use of the term. And saying that being a supporter of gay rights is self serving is wrong for two reasons. Firstly, its not just gay people that are in support of it, and secondly, that's like saying that the whole civil rights movement was just self serving. And even if it is "self-serving", why is this a bad thing? because it sounds like its being done for the wrong reasons. you arent saying gay bashing is wrong, you are saying bashing me is wrong, fuck the other guy. like i said in my post. ive put up with short being used as a describing word and as an insult too. i didnt choose to be short, most people arent short. people use swear words in many situations, the primary examples seem to be the school yard and over the internet. admittedly i dont see anyone making short jokes over the internet, but i can relate to the school yard example and imo thats enough. the short jokes never bothered me, not once. maybe im just dead inside but they really didnt. every kid develops a thick skin in school to verbal abuse, thats just how it is. im not saying its good or right or anything like that, its just how it is. whether you are short, fat, black, gay, tall, white, stupid, ginger. kids will find something, anything, no matter how rediculous and take the piss out of you. why is gay different or special? can you understand the resentment some people feel when sexuality is put on a pedestal as this off limits area? someone gets called a ginger or fat and its "kids will be kids", a kid makes a gay joke and shit hits the fan. making shit about someone being gay is bad, and im sure its truely horrible for some people, my point is only that theres this huge spectrum of less bad and more bad swear words, and i dont see why. | ||
|
chaoser
United States5541 Posts
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microaggression This link to a website of examples of microaggressions and how they hurt/alienate/dehumanize others http://microaggressions.com/ “No offense, but that’s seriously gay.” Quote - Permalink A friend of mine, after telling them about a teacher failing me over a miscommunication. Said friend is one of the few people who knows that I am queer. Made me realize that this friend really doesn’t understand what it’s like to be queer. Almost made me feel like I wasn’t allowed to be angry at this statement, because they’d starting it off with ‘no offense.’ | ||
|
Bibbit
Canada5377 Posts
I successfully got rid of the word "rape" in similar situations so now I try again. : ) | ||
|
turdburgler
England6749 Posts
On October 28 2011 12:23 chaoser wrote: If you guys really want to know why saying those things actually does affect people, you can look up what microaggressions are. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microaggression This link to a website of examples of microaggressions and how they hurt/alienate/dehumanize others http://microaggressions.com/ but this isnt specific to homophobia, this is why this thread annoys me. its not about stoping microaggression in general language because of the affect it has on people, its specific to microaggression against the gay community. thats why i said its self serving and thats why i dont like it. | ||
|
chaoser
United States5541 Posts
On October 28 2011 12:32 turdburgler wrote: but this isnt specific to homophobia, this is why this thread annoys me. its not about stoping microaggression in general language because of the affect it has on people, its specific to microaggression against the gay community. thats why i said its self serving and thats why i dont like it. While I do agree that all forms of microaggression should be stopped in some way or form, I do think that each specific "category" of discrimination needs to be separated for any actual work in it to be done. The civil rights movement in the 1960s focused mainly on sexual equality and race equality in relation to black-white relations. And they were both carried out by different groups. While it would be ideal for all the groups to band together to get rid of all forms of discrimination, it is sometimes very hard or even impossible for all groups to work together to bring attention to an issues. An example would be to look at black and homosexual relations and the homophobia that is a huge part of gangsta hip-hop. I guess one can say it's self-serving but I think realistically, if people can't even agree to stop microaggression against one subgroup, they're definitely not going to agree with trying to stop microaggression against all groups. In the case of homosexually in regards to video games as opposed to the case of being overweight in video games, when people lose, they usually don't say "you're such a fat fuck!", they generally say "you're gay" or "fucking homo" or "damn faggot". Do people still do microaggressions against over weight people? Yes, they definitely do. But homophobia is a lot more rampant. | ||
|
turdburgler
England6749 Posts
but i think we can be idealistic in the approach to the school yard case, you can teach kids that all abuse is wrong quite easily. | ||
|
Hipsv
135 Posts
The word faggot is essentially relegated to a generic insult, as has gay. I like to think that most homosexual people will eventually be able to realize that its relegated as such or be able to use the word similarly to how the word nerd is used. With that said I don't support banning the statements, because the intent of the statement is what should matter much more than the words used to describe it. For example I have had several people close to me (2 friends and a girlfriend(rip)) commit suicide, but I don't go out and try to silence people who say that someone should go kill themselves. Most people who say something is Gay or that someone is a Faggot or that someone should kill themselves is venting frustration about a person or a situation, not looking to intentionally offend gays lesbians or survivors of people who committed suicide. | ||
|
chaoser
United States5541 Posts
On October 28 2011 12:48 turdburgler wrote: i dont feel the civil rights movement is in the same boat though. how can black people of the 1950s help stamp out homphobia if they cant even sit on the bus. they clearly needed a more pragmatic approach to fixing their country. but i think we can be idealistic in the approach to the school yard case, you can teach kids that all abuse is wrong quite easily. Yes you can should in regards to the kids but in this particular case, since it's mainly do to homophobia/discrimination due to sexual preference, it should be highlighted. The "rest of the stuff" is not as relevant. I think saying "all types of bullying is bad" to the kid would have less of an affect than "do you realize why beating up a kid solely because he is homosexual is extremely wrong?" and then go on to explain it. And then using that as a jumping point, make the kid understand that bully in general is wrong since you are hurting and violating other people's pursuits of happiness and such. | ||
|
babylon
8765 Posts
Point being: just be considerate. Intent means jackshit if someone is hurt. | ||
|
chaoser
United States5541 Posts
With that said I don't support banning the statements, because the intent of the statement is what should matter much more than the words used to describe it. Oh I agree that people can use whatever words they want to use. I just hope that people can be a bit more sensitive and understand the reasons and histories BEHIND the words and why they're harmful/hurtful. I use to use the N-word or gay or homo all the time with my friends but over time (and after being around and involved in a decent amount of civil/racial/sexual activism) I've definitely cut all usage of those words. Been watching Louie recently and I think this clip covers the issue decently well. | ||
|
Frumpysnoo
United States247 Posts
I agree with what some of the OP says, don't get me wrong. But there's just no point at all in trying to clean internet chat up of all places. | ||
|
hoby2000
United States918 Posts
On October 28 2011 07:54 Djabanete wrote: @hoby2000: And what's your intention behind the word "gay" then? Can you define it? As I explained in a post somewhere on this page, to me it's basically a synthesis of unfortunate stereotypes and prejudices about gay men, but applied to things other than men. Cheapness, inferior quality, gaudiness, showiness, effeminacy, display of emotion, etc. I think that the word's pejorative use smacks of prejudice even if you're not using to stir up prejudice, or even thinking about it. But not thinking about something doesn't make it go away. Edit: @ Probe1: For what it's worth, I think "raped" is in pretty bad taste as well. And I don't bother crusading about it either; I don't recall talking about this before this thread, but it's what the thread is about, so it's what I think. My intention is certainly not to offend. Homosexuals have as much as a right for using the word "gay" for homosexual as I do for using "gay" for stupid. The only reason people focus on the idea that it's wrong to use the word "gay" in place for stupid or lame is because they believe that homosexuals own the word - but they don't. No one owns a word. The word "gay" meant something completely different before homosexuals started using it to describe themselves. In fact, I believe the only reason they used "gay" in the first place is because of the stereotype of homosexuals always sounding happy. Also, you seem to have missed a majority of my reply. It doesn't matter what my intention is, because someone will take offense anyway - therefore meaning the offended create the feeling of being offended, instead of it being created by the offender. | ||
|
Monkeyballs25
531 Posts
On October 28 2011 13:08 chaoser wrote: Oh I agree that people can use whatever words they want to use. I just hope that people can be a bit more sensitive and understand the reasons and histories BEHIND the words and why they're harmful/hurtful. I use to use the N-word or gay or homo all the time with my friends but over time (and after being around and involved in a decent amount of civil/racial/sexual activism) I've definitely cut all usage of those words. Been watching Louie recently and I think this clip covers the issue decently well. I totally agree with you, and I think that clip is fantastic at explaining it! And I think people defending the use of such words with "oh but they don't MEAN it" or "oh they don't mean it THAT WAY" are missing the point. -how does the person on the receiving end KNOW you don't mean it? The other guy is a complete stranger. Maybe he's just a 12 year old kid who hears it at school and doesn't know any better. Or maybe he's a twentysomething male who goes out and beats the crap out of gay people on weekends. -"oh he doesn't mean faggot as in gay, he means it as in stupid". How is using the same word for being gay and for other negative qualities not also a bad thing? And if you do think its wrong to use offensive terms when talking to other people online, please don't just shrug your shoulders and saw "oh its the internet, we can't change it". You can stop using those words yourself. You can ask your friends to stop using them. And if you're really brave, you can ask strangers to stop doing it too. And if you don't do that, why not? | ||
|
hoby2000
United States918 Posts
On October 28 2011 10:56 R1CH wrote: I'm pretty sure it's not intentional, no one sets out to "gay bash" when they throw around these words. It sucks that it happens and yes it's not a very mature way of expressing yourself, but with the Internet and anonymity people don't really take other peoples feelings into account as nearly as much as they should. I do take offense to the argument that people are allowing themselves to be offended by it though. I imagine the majority of people playing SC2 are straight caucasian males who generally aren't classified as a minority and don't have any particularly hateful words directed towards them. Without being in a minority and knowing first hand what effect a word can have, I don't think you have a place to tell someone whether they should or shouldn't be offended by it. I disagree with this sentiment completely. Who cares if I'm a white male? Claiming that just because I was born as a white male means I that I lack the experience of being a minority doesn't mean that it some how plays favorably for me when I want to use these words. I'm not denying that people have had bad experiences with any of these slurs, but to claim that any of these experiences is less or more relevant than my experiences is ridiculous. Experience =/= fact and is in fact it is more opinion than anything, because it's how you viewed the situation at hand (meaning, you put some sort of different aspect on it because of how YOU viewed it, and not a neutral view) So just because someone has a handful (or even more) of terrible experiences with people using a word in a derogatory fashion DOES NOT MEAN that the word is automatically derogatory regardless of how it is used - even if the word is used in a different derogatory way, such as "gay." This whole argument is so hypocritical too - I mentioned in one of my previous posts on this blog that the LDS religion (and some other Christian sects) make claim to the word marriage, yet homosexuals are against this because these religions have no claim to the word. But when it comes around to homosexuals and the word "gay", suddenly they can claim THAT word? You can't have your cake and eat it too. Either homosexuals can no longer complain about people using the word "gay" (which they didn't even try to claim till the 60's), or they need to stop telling the LDS religion they can't claim the word marriage. Side note: I'm not LDS (although I use to be), and I actually believe that EVERY human should have equal rights (regardless of their faith, skin color or sexual preference). I just feel like people give in to this sensational crap all the time without really thinking about whether or not it's logical in every situation. If you don't want people to claim a word, then stop claiming words yourself. | ||
|
tomatriedes
New Zealand5356 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Oh wait, damn, that might not work either: lame [leym] adjective 1. crippled or physically disabled, especially in the foot or leg so as to limp or walk with difficulty.  | ||
|
marvellosity
United Kingdom36160 Posts
On October 28 2011 11:18 R1CH wrote: This came up in another thread and it seemed worth posting here too. http://vorpalbunnyranch.wordpress.com/2011/10/27/this-gaymers-story/ Hope people read this | ||
|
SirAnnihilate
Great Britain16 Posts
I respectfully disagree with this story. While he says people should not "dare" to change the meaning of the word, he has no right or control to dictate anything that is said - by anyone. I agree that it is offensive, but I also think that the word "faggot" is in the stage of evolving into a "generic" insult. This does not make it any less degrading, but turns it from a specifically targeted insult into one that is applicable to a range of situations, and should hopefully make it a less "personal" insult. This is of course my opinion, and I could be completely wrong. I have no data to back up my feeling and understanding on the development of the word. Bear in mind that most people playing Starcraft are not gay, and that most people using it won't assume their opponent is gay. You don't see these threads over the usual swear words, and I don't think this should be treated any differently. If you get called a "fucking retard" in a game, it's not indicative of your actual mental state and so should be taken for what it is - an angry remark made by a frustrated player. This does not give him innocence, and a report to Blizzard is necessary for his lack of self restraint, but being hurt more because you/a friend is mentally handicapped will not improve the situation. In-game, people aren't going to know who's on the other side of the screen. In real life, each case is situation dependent, and it can be a lot easier to verify if who you're insulting is actually homosexual, so I'll reserve my opinion on that. | ||
|
Spessi
304 Posts
like, "youre being retarded" sure it doesnt actually mean "i think you're mentally challenged, it's a different thing and a generalization made from the word retarded"...and people think that that somehow makes it okay. it somehow makes it less offensive to people sensitive of mentally handicapped people because its not a word specifically indicative OF mentally handicapped people anymore, even though that's what it originated from. somehow "youre acting really faggoty (but don't worry im not calling you gay and gay people shouldnt be offended because its a generalized word with its own meaning and doesnt actually refer to gay people" SOMEHOW actually makes sense. despite the word itself being associated with gay people and gay culture and the extreme negativeness around that. despite it still relating to that culture and the extreme negative view that persists about gay people even if they personally don't prejudice against gay people. despite that it's extremely negative and hateful about a community of people even IF you aren't talking specifically about gay people "anymore" there isn't a single example where that word has been used in a positive loving way. and you using it in a hateful way to describe something else, even pretending it's not about anything related to gay people, is just ignorant. would you run around telling your friend "you're acting like such a nigger" in public? he's not black. obviously he's not black and hey, there's nothing wrong with being black right? so why wouldn't you? the answer is so painfully obvious i literally do not have the words to try to spell it out. - i genuinely cannot understand the stupidity of the argument that that is somehow alright. "because they're different things because we're not talking about gay people; it's just a general multi-definitonal term even though it all sprung from prejudice against gay culture and people and yeah okay it still actually is really hateful towards gay people but i mean...its alright cuz i explained it that way"...even though that way still makes you sound like a discriminating, hateful shit. meh. i dont have words. | ||
|
darklight54321
United States361 Posts
such as faggot initially meaning 1. a bundle of sticks or twigs, esp when bound together and used as fuel 2. (Engineering / Metallurgy) a bundle of iron bars, esp a box formed by four pieces of wrought iron and filled with scrap to be forged into wrought iron 3. (Cookery) a ball of chopped meat, usually pork liver, bound with herbs and bread and eaten fried 4. a bundle of anything vb (tr) 1. to collect into a bundle or bundles 2. (Clothing, Personal Arts & Crafts / Knitting & Sewing) Needlework to do faggoting on (a garment, piece of cloth, etc.) i can see how most likely faggot was either turned into a racial slur in two situations, one is the use of definition number 3 as an insult (meat is a reference to the penis after all in some slang) or as the first defition maybe someone said "this topic is a faggot" or something like that meaning it's a very controversial topic and it becoming a slur. The same can be used for almost every single modern curse word. However, then there are terms like nigger, cracker (which actually might have a basis in Crack :p ), wetback and most race based slurs. This is where the difference comes into play. I will defend anyone using the words that have changed meaning, it is only the words that were made specifically for a a group that i would find offense with. Some of them, such as retard, i feel insulted when people use as an insult. The origin of retard is actually an italian musical term to Slow Down the tempo, any musician of any instrument should know this term. It was only latered applied to people who before were generally called idiots, lackwits, slow, and other such terms (yes people, that is where the word idiot comes from, it actually meant mentally retarded at some point in history). tl;dr some words aren't bad, they are only bad because you percieve them as bad. It's not up to me to make you happy, i have enough damn problems. This being said, i generally steer away from faggot because i dont have a use for it. Instead of calling someone a faggot, normally i just call them a dick. | ||
| ||
