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Hello, all!
It's become quite apparent that many of you are not reading the first post carefully.
Failure to do so in the future will be met with swift punishment. And as always, remember to be civil.
Thanks,
Empyrean. Time stamp: 03:59 KST. |
I don't understand how we're on page 107 and people still think Cruncher cheated...
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United States15275 Posts
On May 09 2011 07:38 Asparagus wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2011 07:24 snarl wrote:On May 09 2011 07:20 MonkSEA wrote:On May 09 2011 07:17 snarl wrote:On May 09 2011 07:15 MonkSEA wrote:On May 09 2011 07:12 RoyalCheese wrote:
What people fail to realize is that Cruncher didn't troll/whateveryoucallit via TL and therefore TL staff has no right to take any actions against him. Idra however insulted him via tl forum and got banned. Pretty fair case, imo. (btw yes i am <3 idra) Then Mr. Awesome, why was IdrA banned for 90 days when he trolled someone off of the TL website? Your logic is incorrect and therefore redundant. Did you miss the part where he told his legion of fans to send the mod a pm knowing full well it would result in spam? And did you miss the part where if we're playing this on assumptions then CrunCher should be assumed of stream cheating? Regardless of IdrA saying that, he did not out-right say "Spam Chill and harass him" he said if the ban upset you then don't ask IdrA, ask Chill. Nazgul spoke with idra after the fact, did you not read the op? IF it wasn't idra's intention to get chill spam PM'd he could have apologised and the thing would have blown over. But it clearly was his intent since he said he did not regret his actions. So please stop..you're grasping at straws here. Reposting the example if you did not see it. I tell my friends my boss is a douchebag and that i will pay for someone to cut his head off. Someone eventually hears that, does it and asks for my money, so am I to blame if police saw the whole thing? I saw the lakers game I'm so infuriated with how they played today because I lose $300 on a bet. I'm actually so infuriated that I post on my facebook that they're failures and terrorists should blow their plane up. Their plane crashes and FBI is at my door, am I a terrorist? I enjoy how people make assumptions and judge in absolutes for some cases or dismiss them entirely, but to prove others we need empirical evidence else they're innocent.
The first situation, yes.
The second situation, no.
Please use better examples to support your non-existent arguments.
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On May 09 2011 07:44 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2011 07:40 HolyArrow wrote:
Is it really against the rules to "incite" against Chill when the nature of the "inciting" merely entails PMing to protest a ban, which seems to be within the rules of TL? Like someone else said, if a mod bans someone and it is within the rules to PM that mod if one thinks the ban is unjust, it is the mod's burden to deal with those PMs, and even if IdrA wanted to annoy Chill, it was ultimately the actual people who PM'd Chill with the intent to troll who are to blame. Like I said earlier, people could have easily PM'd Chill with rational, well-thought out arguments, and it's not IdrA's fault that many people didn't do that. 1. Idra didn't tell his fans to ask for his unbanning. He told his fans to bitch to Chill about him not streaming for the next two days (which isn't even up to Chill). Read what he said on twitter. 2. The TL staff went and talked to Idra afterward to verify what he wanted to happen. He admitted that he wanted to annoy Chill and that he doesn't regret it. This is the reason for the ban.
That's just differences in how we interpret the twitter post. "PM Chill if my ban upsets you" can easily be interpreted as "PM Chill if you think my ban was unjust and want to argue against it". As for point number 2, I have acknowledged the fact that IdrA admitted to intending to annoy Chill. I believe I address that point in the post you quote.
The key point here is not solely IdrA's intent - it's whether or not asking people to PM a mod if they think your ban is unjust (even if you intend those PMs to annoy the mod) is against the rules or not, since PMing a mod to express an opinion about a wrongful ban is not against the rules at all.
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On May 09 2011 07:35 huameng wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2011 07:09 GeeseHoward wrote:On May 09 2011 06:53 huameng wrote:On May 09 2011 06:45 GeeseHoward wrote:On May 09 2011 06:40 FuTon wrote:On May 09 2011 06:33 GeeseHoward wrote:
I can provide screen shots of my conversation with Chill. At no point did he ask me to stop or imply he didn't want to receive those messages. I'm going to quote wikipedia on the subject, "It is commonly understood as behaviour intended to disturb or upset, and it is characteristically repetitive. In the legal sense, it is intentional behaviour which is found threatening or disturbing." Thus it's commonly accepted for a action to become harassment, a party has to ask the other party in some form to stop.
I would like to point out section 3 of your ten commandments which states, "... If you believe a certain ban was a mistake, you can contact a Mod through PM or in our IRC channel, but please be respectful about it. Do not take things into your own hands by posting "Ban?" or telling users they will be banned. You PM Moderators to let them know about specific posts or threads, but let them handle it after that."
Two things, everyone that contact Chill about the ban was in the right according to the rules as long as they were being respectful. If they choose to violate the rules that was once again, their action. Not Greg Fields.
Last, the Idra Banned for 90 Days creates a double stander. Where it implied in the rules that such threads should not be create since it seems to be TL staff would prefer to deal with such matters in private.
Thus I humbly request you do not ban Greg "IdrA" Fields for 90 days. Since his tweet did not tell people to harass it clearly states, "wont be streaming for 2 days as i have been banned from tl for insulting cruncher, everyone pm Chill if this upsets you". Which is clearly in the rules that you are allow to, "If you believe a certain ban was a mistake, you can contact a Mod through PM..." I do not see any rule that was broken to increase IdrA's ban to 90 days.
I would also like to request that moderate actions on the Team Liquid forums be base solely on items that happen on the forums. Actions that happen on other outlets should be not be dealt with on the Team Liquid forums.
Thank you. Idra told TL staffs that he did it on purpose. Proof: On May 09 2011 06:15 IntoTheWow wrote:On May 09 2011 06:04 eNtitY~ wrote:
This is a really stupid move, it's not like he told people to mass spam Chill and harass him about why. He just said he was banned and if they had a problem to PM Chill... The staff needs to lighten up a bit here because what he did really shouldn't be that big of a deal. All TL admins are doing is taking away from the community because now no one gets to benefit from the week of analysis he was going to do. Considering ~18k people watch it the first day there was a lot of interest there.
Overboard IMO. TL Staff talked about it with Idra. He said he did it on purpose to annoy Chill. We are not taking anything from you. If Idra doesn't want to stream, it's his own decision. We don't have a power button to switch his computer or stream off. I have read that, but that unrelated to my post. I personally message Chill, because I did not agree with the banned and I followed the rules. It a decision of the individual. Thus if rules were violate and Chill was harass, that is the fault of the individual who made that decision, not Greg "IdrA" Fields. I don't see how it's unrelated, it seems about as related as something could possibly be. His tweet didn't directly tell people to harass, but he meant it to harass, and since Idra did something to have Chill harassed, he is the one who gets punished. Since the PMs weren't harassment, but protesting a ban, which is standard procedure and allowed, the users who sent the PMs were not punished. But Idra, who wanted Chill to be harassed and attempted to make it happen, gets punished. It makes perfect sense to me. It's unrelated cause his intent doesn't control me. It was a clear statement which is clearly allowed in the rules. I'm sorry you don't understand. I clearly have the intent for wanting lower gas prices, but it's outside of my power to do so. Greg can clearly want people to harass Chill but it's out side of his power to make them do so. It was still a individual decision and I strongly do not support moderating actions that happen outside of the forums. It's very close if not online bulling. Idra's actions being outside the forums are irrelevant to this discussion I think. TL taking action on stuff that happens outside the site is a totally different issue. And yes, Idra just wanting chill to be harassed doesn't mean Idra should get banned. But he didn't just want to do so, he took action to make it happen, and this is when it crosses the line between okay and against the rules. Similarly, if you hire an assassin to get someone killed, you will still be in trouble even though you didn't actually murder anyone and it was the assassin's choice to kill.
Metaphor debate.
IdrA didn't hire me to harass Chill. He made a blank statement and it was up to the individual. Thus it's not like hiring a assassin to get someone killed. Since you are actually paying to get a job done.
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Idra is the Charlie Sheen of e-sports, his mind is fucked and he mostly does stupid stuff - but he still has triple the highest viewers for a first person streamer... /commercial #winning
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Idra rises again!
Help, my computer has been hacked by Idra. He was looking at my stream while I played him and he got my TL password! He is typing this very message right now. HALP!
User was warned for this post
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On May 09 2011 07:46 CosmicSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2011 07:38 Asparagus wrote:On May 09 2011 07:24 snarl wrote:On May 09 2011 07:20 MonkSEA wrote:On May 09 2011 07:17 snarl wrote:On May 09 2011 07:15 MonkSEA wrote:On May 09 2011 07:12 RoyalCheese wrote:
What people fail to realize is that Cruncher didn't troll/whateveryoucallit via TL and therefore TL staff has no right to take any actions against him. Idra however insulted him via tl forum and got banned. Pretty fair case, imo. (btw yes i am <3 idra) Then Mr. Awesome, why was IdrA banned for 90 days when he trolled someone off of the TL website? Your logic is incorrect and therefore redundant. Did you miss the part where he told his legion of fans to send the mod a pm knowing full well it would result in spam? And did you miss the part where if we're playing this on assumptions then CrunCher should be assumed of stream cheating? Regardless of IdrA saying that, he did not out-right say "Spam Chill and harass him" he said if the ban upset you then don't ask IdrA, ask Chill. Nazgul spoke with idra after the fact, did you not read the op? IF it wasn't idra's intention to get chill spam PM'd he could have apologised and the thing would have blown over. But it clearly was his intent since he said he did not regret his actions. So please stop..you're grasping at straws here. Reposting the example if you did not see it. I tell my friends my boss is a douchebag and that i will pay for someone to cut his head off. Someone eventually hears that, does it and asks for my money, so am I to blame if police saw the whole thing? I saw the lakers game I'm so infuriated with how they played today because I lose $300 on a bet. I'm actually so infuriated that I post on my facebook that they're failures and terrorists should blow their plane up. Their plane crashes and FBI is at my door, am I a terrorist? I enjoy how people make assumptions and judge in absolutes for some cases or dismiss them entirely, but to prove others we need empirical evidence else they're innocent. The first situation, yes. The second situation, no. Please use better examples to support your non-existent arguments.
wrong. you can't kill someone, point the finger and drag someone else into the blame because "he said he'd pay me to", unless you met with the person, agreed to the pay to have that person murdered. that's generally how it works in reality.
the intent is that you wanted him dead, but evidence of neither an arranged agreement or your actual involvement in the murder would make you innocent.
*edit* cmon dude i just realized this was in law abiding citizen, you can really really want someone dead, love to have someone dead and even plan out that person's murder in your head but if you don't have any proof that you did it you're good to go.
IdrA twittered his angst and his fans followed, he knew chill would be annoyed by the masses peckering him and that increased the ban length. where is this in the rules?
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On May 09 2011 07:44 Asparagus wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2011 07:42 Kamikazess wrote:On May 09 2011 07:38 Asparagus wrote:On May 09 2011 07:24 snarl wrote:On May 09 2011 07:20 MonkSEA wrote:On May 09 2011 07:17 snarl wrote:On May 09 2011 07:15 MonkSEA wrote:On May 09 2011 07:12 RoyalCheese wrote:
What people fail to realize is that Cruncher didn't troll/whateveryoucallit via TL and therefore TL staff has no right to take any actions against him. Idra however insulted him via tl forum and got banned. Pretty fair case, imo. (btw yes i am <3 idra) Then Mr. Awesome, why was IdrA banned for 90 days when he trolled someone off of the TL website? Your logic is incorrect and therefore redundant. Did you miss the part where he told his legion of fans to send the mod a pm knowing full well it would result in spam? And did you miss the part where if we're playing this on assumptions then CrunCher should be assumed of stream cheating? Regardless of IdrA saying that, he did not out-right say "Spam Chill and harass him" he said if the ban upset you then don't ask IdrA, ask Chill. Nazgul spoke with idra after the fact, did you not read the op? IF it wasn't idra's intention to get chill spam PM'd he could have apologised and the thing would have blown over. But it clearly was his intent since he said he did not regret his actions. So please stop..you're grasping at straws here. Reposting the example if you did not see it. I tell my friends my boss is a douchebag and that i will pay for someone to cut his head off. Someone eventually hears that, does it and asks for my money, so am I to blame if police saw the whole thing? I saw the lakers game I'm so infuriated with how they played today because I lose $300 on a bet. I'm actually so infuriated that I post on my facebook that they're failures and terrorists should blow their plane up. Their plane crashes and FBI is at my door, am I a terrorist? I enjoy how people make assumptions and judge in absolutes for some cases or dismiss them entirely, but to prove others we need empirical evidence else they're innocent. If the police saw the whole thing, and you tell them that it was your intention, yes, you're to blame. If the FBI goes to your house, and you tell them that your intention is to provoke a terrorist attack with your comment, yes, you're to blame and you're a terrorist. And IdrA did the exact same thing. He assumed that it was his intention, and didn't want to apologize. wow... your post is so wrong on so many levels... i'm a biology major and i know more law than you, how about that. so if I said it was my intent, and then apologized, i would be let go and the US government would deem me not a terrorist? get out.
Well, you're trying to compare two absurd situations. The point I was trying to make is, if it was your intention to induce someone to do a wrong thing, you should be punished too.
I'm pretty sure that you, as a biology major, know that being banned from TL is a bit less serious than to cause a terrorist attack. =)
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On May 09 2011 07:48 GeeseHoward wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2011 07:35 huameng wrote:On May 09 2011 07:09 GeeseHoward wrote:On May 09 2011 06:53 huameng wrote:On May 09 2011 06:45 GeeseHoward wrote:On May 09 2011 06:40 FuTon wrote:On May 09 2011 06:33 GeeseHoward wrote:
I can provide screen shots of my conversation with Chill. At no point did he ask me to stop or imply he didn't want to receive those messages. I'm going to quote wikipedia on the subject, "It is commonly understood as behaviour intended to disturb or upset, and it is characteristically repetitive. In the legal sense, it is intentional behaviour which is found threatening or disturbing." Thus it's commonly accepted for a action to become harassment, a party has to ask the other party in some form to stop.
I would like to point out section 3 of your ten commandments which states, "... If you believe a certain ban was a mistake, you can contact a Mod through PM or in our IRC channel, but please be respectful about it. Do not take things into your own hands by posting "Ban?" or telling users they will be banned. You PM Moderators to let them know about specific posts or threads, but let them handle it after that."
Two things, everyone that contact Chill about the ban was in the right according to the rules as long as they were being respectful. If they choose to violate the rules that was once again, their action. Not Greg Fields.
Last, the Idra Banned for 90 Days creates a double stander. Where it implied in the rules that such threads should not be create since it seems to be TL staff would prefer to deal with such matters in private.
Thus I humbly request you do not ban Greg "IdrA" Fields for 90 days. Since his tweet did not tell people to harass it clearly states, "wont be streaming for 2 days as i have been banned from tl for insulting cruncher, everyone pm Chill if this upsets you". Which is clearly in the rules that you are allow to, "If you believe a certain ban was a mistake, you can contact a Mod through PM..." I do not see any rule that was broken to increase IdrA's ban to 90 days.
I would also like to request that moderate actions on the Team Liquid forums be base solely on items that happen on the forums. Actions that happen on other outlets should be not be dealt with on the Team Liquid forums.
Thank you. Idra told TL staffs that he did it on purpose. Proof: On May 09 2011 06:15 IntoTheWow wrote:On May 09 2011 06:04 eNtitY~ wrote:
This is a really stupid move, it's not like he told people to mass spam Chill and harass him about why. He just said he was banned and if they had a problem to PM Chill... The staff needs to lighten up a bit here because what he did really shouldn't be that big of a deal. All TL admins are doing is taking away from the community because now no one gets to benefit from the week of analysis he was going to do. Considering ~18k people watch it the first day there was a lot of interest there.
Overboard IMO. TL Staff talked about it with Idra. He said he did it on purpose to annoy Chill. We are not taking anything from you. If Idra doesn't want to stream, it's his own decision. We don't have a power button to switch his computer or stream off. I have read that, but that unrelated to my post. I personally message Chill, because I did not agree with the banned and I followed the rules. It a decision of the individual. Thus if rules were violate and Chill was harass, that is the fault of the individual who made that decision, not Greg "IdrA" Fields. I don't see how it's unrelated, it seems about as related as something could possibly be. His tweet didn't directly tell people to harass, but he meant it to harass, and since Idra did something to have Chill harassed, he is the one who gets punished. Since the PMs weren't harassment, but protesting a ban, which is standard procedure and allowed, the users who sent the PMs were not punished. But Idra, who wanted Chill to be harassed and attempted to make it happen, gets punished. It makes perfect sense to me. It's unrelated cause his intent doesn't control me. It was a clear statement which is clearly allowed in the rules. I'm sorry you don't understand. I clearly have the intent for wanting lower gas prices, but it's outside of my power to do so. Greg can clearly want people to harass Chill but it's out side of his power to make them do so. It was still a individual decision and I strongly do not support moderating actions that happen outside of the forums. It's very close if not online bulling. Idra's actions being outside the forums are irrelevant to this discussion I think. TL taking action on stuff that happens outside the site is a totally different issue. And yes, Idra just wanting chill to be harassed doesn't mean Idra should get banned. But he didn't just want to do so, he took action to make it happen, and this is when it crosses the line between okay and against the rules. Similarly, if you hire an assassin to get someone killed, you will still be in trouble even though you didn't actually murder anyone and it was the assassin's choice to kill. Metaphor debate. IdrA didn't hire me to harass Chill. He made a blank statement and it was up to the individual. Thus it's not like hiring a assassin to get someone killed. Since you are actually paying to get a job done.
I want this person taken care of. <--- Blank statement when you hire an assassin. You will still go to prison if this person killed.
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On May 09 2011 07:51 zJayy962 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2011 07:48 GeeseHoward wrote:On May 09 2011 07:35 huameng wrote:On May 09 2011 07:09 GeeseHoward wrote:On May 09 2011 06:53 huameng wrote:On May 09 2011 06:45 GeeseHoward wrote:On May 09 2011 06:40 FuTon wrote:On May 09 2011 06:33 GeeseHoward wrote:
I can provide screen shots of my conversation with Chill. At no point did he ask me to stop or imply he didn't want to receive those messages. I'm going to quote wikipedia on the subject, "It is commonly understood as behaviour intended to disturb or upset, and it is characteristically repetitive. In the legal sense, it is intentional behaviour which is found threatening or disturbing." Thus it's commonly accepted for a action to become harassment, a party has to ask the other party in some form to stop.
I would like to point out section 3 of your ten commandments which states, "... If you believe a certain ban was a mistake, you can contact a Mod through PM or in our IRC channel, but please be respectful about it. Do not take things into your own hands by posting "Ban?" or telling users they will be banned. You PM Moderators to let them know about specific posts or threads, but let them handle it after that."
Two things, everyone that contact Chill about the ban was in the right according to the rules as long as they were being respectful. If they choose to violate the rules that was once again, their action. Not Greg Fields.
Last, the Idra Banned for 90 Days creates a double stander. Where it implied in the rules that such threads should not be create since it seems to be TL staff would prefer to deal with such matters in private.
Thus I humbly request you do not ban Greg "IdrA" Fields for 90 days. Since his tweet did not tell people to harass it clearly states, "wont be streaming for 2 days as i have been banned from tl for insulting cruncher, everyone pm Chill if this upsets you". Which is clearly in the rules that you are allow to, "If you believe a certain ban was a mistake, you can contact a Mod through PM..." I do not see any rule that was broken to increase IdrA's ban to 90 days.
I would also like to request that moderate actions on the Team Liquid forums be base solely on items that happen on the forums. Actions that happen on other outlets should be not be dealt with on the Team Liquid forums.
Thank you. Idra told TL staffs that he did it on purpose. Proof: On May 09 2011 06:15 IntoTheWow wrote:On May 09 2011 06:04 eNtitY~ wrote:
This is a really stupid move, it's not like he told people to mass spam Chill and harass him about why. He just said he was banned and if they had a problem to PM Chill... The staff needs to lighten up a bit here because what he did really shouldn't be that big of a deal. All TL admins are doing is taking away from the community because now no one gets to benefit from the week of analysis he was going to do. Considering ~18k people watch it the first day there was a lot of interest there.
Overboard IMO. TL Staff talked about it with Idra. He said he did it on purpose to annoy Chill. We are not taking anything from you. If Idra doesn't want to stream, it's his own decision. We don't have a power button to switch his computer or stream off. I have read that, but that unrelated to my post. I personally message Chill, because I did not agree with the banned and I followed the rules. It a decision of the individual. Thus if rules were violate and Chill was harass, that is the fault of the individual who made that decision, not Greg "IdrA" Fields. I don't see how it's unrelated, it seems about as related as something could possibly be. His tweet didn't directly tell people to harass, but he meant it to harass, and since Idra did something to have Chill harassed, he is the one who gets punished. Since the PMs weren't harassment, but protesting a ban, which is standard procedure and allowed, the users who sent the PMs were not punished. But Idra, who wanted Chill to be harassed and attempted to make it happen, gets punished. It makes perfect sense to me. It's unrelated cause his intent doesn't control me. It was a clear statement which is clearly allowed in the rules. I'm sorry you don't understand. I clearly have the intent for wanting lower gas prices, but it's outside of my power to do so. Greg can clearly want people to harass Chill but it's out side of his power to make them do so. It was still a individual decision and I strongly do not support moderating actions that happen outside of the forums. It's very close if not online bulling. Idra's actions being outside the forums are irrelevant to this discussion I think. TL taking action on stuff that happens outside the site is a totally different issue. And yes, Idra just wanting chill to be harassed doesn't mean Idra should get banned. But he didn't just want to do so, he took action to make it happen, and this is when it crosses the line between okay and against the rules. Similarly, if you hire an assassin to get someone killed, you will still be in trouble even though you didn't actually murder anyone and it was the assassin's choice to kill. Metaphor debate. IdrA didn't hire me to harass Chill. He made a blank statement and it was up to the individual. Thus it's not like hiring a assassin to get someone killed. Since you are actually paying to get a job done. I want this person taken care of. <--- Blank statement when you hire an assassin. You will still go to prison if this person killed.
Ugh, stop discussing the assassin analogy, it wasn't even good to begin with. Read my earlier post directly responding to why it doesn't even work in this scenario.
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Enjoying seeing all the martyr's, flamers, and anti-tl posters being banned. This is almost like a purge in and of itself. I don't see how some people seem to think it's acceptable to behave like this in public. Just because it's the internet, doesn't mean we can't have a civil discussion.
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On May 09 2011 07:03 Xacez wrote:
Trolling =! Stream sniping
Many players snipe, be it pro gamers or not, there is nothing wrong with it. Look at TotalBiscuit, who does daily streaming, he gets snipe'd about once a day, you don't see him complaining on TL about that.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=206261
Most people here probably see wall of text and won't even read so I'll quote his exact words:
"Thanks. I feel awesome. After he left I just started laughing uncontrollably and thinking how much he was raging."
"I actually do not even know where all his rage comes from, but it is hilarious. Whenever I match him on ladder I just cheese him to get him to rage, so maybe from there? He rages at everyone he loses to, so who knows. But I have zero respect for a player like Idra."
"Right before he left I made a smiley face just to get him to rage more. After every game he kept trash talking, even after he lost the first game. I couldn't think of anything better than just a smiley face to get him to rage. And after he left the game I just started laughing. I couldn't even imagine how upset he was."
Yeh.. Looks like a normal progamer who just wants to be good like all the mods say. Spending your free time just to get someone rage by cheesing of forcing him to kill every building on map. I was seriously surprised when Idra recieved 2 day ban and cruncher wasn't even warned.. I understand 90 day ban from mod perspective tho.
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On May 09 2011 07:51 Kamikazess wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2011 07:44 Asparagus wrote:On May 09 2011 07:42 Kamikazess wrote:On May 09 2011 07:38 Asparagus wrote:On May 09 2011 07:24 snarl wrote:On May 09 2011 07:20 MonkSEA wrote:On May 09 2011 07:17 snarl wrote:On May 09 2011 07:15 MonkSEA wrote:On May 09 2011 07:12 RoyalCheese wrote:
What people fail to realize is that Cruncher didn't troll/whateveryoucallit via TL and therefore TL staff has no right to take any actions against him. Idra however insulted him via tl forum and got banned. Pretty fair case, imo. (btw yes i am <3 idra) Then Mr. Awesome, why was IdrA banned for 90 days when he trolled someone off of the TL website? Your logic is incorrect and therefore redundant. Did you miss the part where he told his legion of fans to send the mod a pm knowing full well it would result in spam? And did you miss the part where if we're playing this on assumptions then CrunCher should be assumed of stream cheating? Regardless of IdrA saying that, he did not out-right say "Spam Chill and harass him" he said if the ban upset you then don't ask IdrA, ask Chill. Nazgul spoke with idra after the fact, did you not read the op? IF it wasn't idra's intention to get chill spam PM'd he could have apologised and the thing would have blown over. But it clearly was his intent since he said he did not regret his actions. So please stop..you're grasping at straws here. Reposting the example if you did not see it. I tell my friends my boss is a douchebag and that i will pay for someone to cut his head off. Someone eventually hears that, does it and asks for my money, so am I to blame if police saw the whole thing? I saw the lakers game I'm so infuriated with how they played today because I lose $300 on a bet. I'm actually so infuriated that I post on my facebook that they're failures and terrorists should blow their plane up. Their plane crashes and FBI is at my door, am I a terrorist? I enjoy how people make assumptions and judge in absolutes for some cases or dismiss them entirely, but to prove others we need empirical evidence else they're innocent. If the police saw the whole thing, and you tell them that it was your intention, yes, you're to blame. If the FBI goes to your house, and you tell them that your intention is to provoke a terrorist attack with your comment, yes, you're to blame and you're a terrorist. And IdrA did the exact same thing. He assumed that it was his intention, and didn't want to apologize. wow... your post is so wrong on so many levels... i'm a biology major and i know more law than you, how about that. so if I said it was my intent, and then apologized, i would be let go and the US government would deem me not a terrorist? get out. Well, you're trying to compare two absurd situations. The point I was trying to make is, if it was your intention to induce someone to do a wrong thing, you should be punished too. I'm pretty sure that you, as a biology major, know that being banned from TL is a bit less serious than to cause a terrorist attack. =)
actually it works for any situation regardless how "less serious" it is.
this is just questioning of the TL's rules, and how it's currently being applied.
you would be informed if you actually read most of pages after 86ish.
=)
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On May 09 2011 07:51 zJayy962 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 09 2011 07:48 GeeseHoward wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2011 07:35 huameng wrote:On May 09 2011 07:09 GeeseHoward wrote:On May 09 2011 06:53 huameng wrote:On May 09 2011 06:45 GeeseHoward wrote:On May 09 2011 06:40 FuTon wrote:On May 09 2011 06:33 GeeseHoward wrote:
I can provide screen shots of my conversation with Chill. At no point did he ask me to stop or imply he didn't want to receive those messages. I'm going to quote wikipedia on the subject, "It is commonly understood as behaviour intended to disturb or upset, and it is characteristically repetitive. In the legal sense, it is intentional behaviour which is found threatening or disturbing." Thus it's commonly accepted for a action to become harassment, a party has to ask the other party in some form to stop.
I would like to point out section 3 of your ten commandments which states, "... If you believe a certain ban was a mistake, you can contact a Mod through PM or in our IRC channel, but please be respectful about it. Do not take things into your own hands by posting "Ban?" or telling users they will be banned. You PM Moderators to let them know about specific posts or threads, but let them handle it after that."
Two things, everyone that contact Chill about the ban was in the right according to the rules as long as they were being respectful. If they choose to violate the rules that was once again, their action. Not Greg Fields.
Last, the Idra Banned for 90 Days creates a double stander. Where it implied in the rules that such threads should not be create since it seems to be TL staff would prefer to deal with such matters in private.
Thus I humbly request you do not ban Greg "IdrA" Fields for 90 days. Since his tweet did not tell people to harass it clearly states, "wont be streaming for 2 days as i have been banned from tl for insulting cruncher, everyone pm Chill if this upsets you". Which is clearly in the rules that you are allow to, "If you believe a certain ban was a mistake, you can contact a Mod through PM..." I do not see any rule that was broken to increase IdrA's ban to 90 days.
I would also like to request that moderate actions on the Team Liquid forums be base solely on items that happen on the forums. Actions that happen on other outlets should be not be dealt with on the Team Liquid forums.
Thank you. Idra told TL staffs that he did it on purpose. Proof: On May 09 2011 06:15 IntoTheWow wrote:On May 09 2011 06:04 eNtitY~ wrote:
This is a really stupid move, it's not like he told people to mass spam Chill and harass him about why. He just said he was banned and if they had a problem to PM Chill... The staff needs to lighten up a bit here because what he did really shouldn't be that big of a deal. All TL admins are doing is taking away from the community because now no one gets to benefit from the week of analysis he was going to do. Considering ~18k people watch it the first day there was a lot of interest there.
Overboard IMO. TL Staff talked about it with Idra. He said he did it on purpose to annoy Chill. We are not taking anything from you. If Idra doesn't want to stream, it's his own decision. We don't have a power button to switch his computer or stream off. I have read that, but that unrelated to my post. I personally message Chill, because I did not agree with the banned and I followed the rules. It a decision of the individual. Thus if rules were violate and Chill was harass, that is the fault of the individual who made that decision, not Greg "IdrA" Fields. I don't see how it's unrelated, it seems about as related as something could possibly be. His tweet didn't directly tell people to harass, but he meant it to harass, and since Idra did something to have Chill harassed, he is the one who gets punished. Since the PMs weren't harassment, but protesting a ban, which is standard procedure and allowed, the users who sent the PMs were not punished. But Idra, who wanted Chill to be harassed and attempted to make it happen, gets punished. It makes perfect sense to me. It's unrelated cause his intent doesn't control me. It was a clear statement which is clearly allowed in the rules. I'm sorry you don't understand. I clearly have the intent for wanting lower gas prices, but it's outside of my power to do so. Greg can clearly want people to harass Chill but it's out side of his power to make them do so. It was still a individual decision and I strongly do not support moderating actions that happen outside of the forums. It's very close if not online bulling. Idra's actions being outside the forums are irrelevant to this discussion I think. TL taking action on stuff that happens outside the site is a totally different issue. And yes, Idra just wanting chill to be harassed doesn't mean Idra should get banned. But he didn't just want to do so, he took action to make it happen, and this is when it crosses the line between okay and against the rules. Similarly, if you hire an assassin to get someone killed, you will still be in trouble even though you didn't actually murder anyone and it was the assassin's choice to kill. Metaphor debate. IdrA didn't hire me to harass Chill. He made a blank statement and it was up to the individual. Thus it's not like hiring a assassin to get someone killed. Since you are actually paying to get a job done. I want this person taken care of. <--- Blank statement when you hire an assassin. You will still go to prison if this person killed.
Much different. Hiring an assassin is specifically telling somebody to commit a crime. All IdrA said was to PM Chill, not harass him, not insult him, not bear any malice towards him. Killing somebody is a crime. PM'ing is not.
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On May 09 2011 07:48 HolyArrow wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2011 07:44 Azarkon wrote:On May 09 2011 07:40 HolyArrow wrote:
Is it really against the rules to "incite" against Chill when the nature of the "inciting" merely entails PMing to protest a ban, which seems to be within the rules of TL? Like someone else said, if a mod bans someone and it is within the rules to PM that mod if one thinks the ban is unjust, it is the mod's burden to deal with those PMs, and even if IdrA wanted to annoy Chill, it was ultimately the actual people who PM'd Chill with the intent to troll who are to blame. Like I said earlier, people could have easily PM'd Chill with rational, well-thought out arguments, and it's not IdrA's fault that many people didn't do that. 1. Idra didn't tell his fans to ask for his unbanning. He told his fans to bitch to Chill about him not streaming for the next two days (which isn't even up to Chill). Read what he said on twitter. 2. The TL staff went and talked to Idra afterward to verify what he wanted to happen. He admitted that he wanted to annoy Chill and that he doesn't regret it. This is the reason for the ban. That's just differences in how we interpret the twitter post. "PM Chill if my ban upsets you" can easily be interpreted as "PM Chill if you think my ban was unjust and want to argue against it". As for point number 2, I have acknowledged the fact that IdrA admitted to intending to annoy Chill. I believe I address that point in the post you quote. The key point here is not solely IdrA's intent - it's whether or not asking people to PM a mod if they think your ban is unjust (even if you intend those PMs to annoy the mod) is against the rules or not, since PMing a mod to express an opinion about a wrongful ban is not against the rules at all.
The inciter of a riot takes the brunt of the responsibility. Personally, I think you're arguing petty details for the sake of muddying the waters. It's not that we're ignoring you - it's that your argument just isn't that good. Idra decided to make a point by blaming his not streaming on Chill and inciting his pissed off viewers to "do something about it." He acknowledged getting back at Chill was his intent afterward and showed no remorse. In response, TL decided to give him a 90 day timeout. That's all there is to it.
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Well I read the first 5 pages of this thread. Sorry If I didnt read the whole thing. But there are a couple thoughts I had on this subject.
1. It really irritates me that Idra is as BM as he is. I mean some of it is so dumb that I feel like he does it on purpose just to piss everyone off instead of him being mad about something. Which, all in turn, leads me to root against him when he plays and even being embarrassed at times that we played the same race in BW.
2. It also surprises me that Idra has not been banned yet. I fully understand and respect that he will get more leeway due to him being a long time poster/progamer. But cmon, when is enough enough? What could hurt more than the one thing he doesnt think will happen?
It again surprises me that people were hating on Cruncher during his match with Greg after all the shit talking Greg does on a daily basis. That is of course excluding the accusations of Cruncher stream cheating or whatever, which is a separate issue.
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On May 09 2011 07:54 Crawler wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2011 07:03 Xacez wrote:
Trolling =! Stream sniping
Many players snipe, be it pro gamers or not, there is nothing wrong with it. Look at TotalBiscuit, who does daily streaming, he gets snipe'd about once a day, you don't see him complaining on TL about that. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=206261 Most people here probably see wall of text and won't even read so I'll quote his exact words: "Thanks. I feel awesome. After he left I just started laughing uncontrollably and thinking how much he was raging.""I actually do not even know where all his rage comes from, but it is hilarious. Whenever I match him on ladder I just cheese him to get him to rage, so maybe from there? He rages at everyone he loses to, so who knows. But I have zero respect for a player like Idra.""Right before he left I made a smiley face just to get him to rage more. After every game he kept trash talking, even after he lost the first game. I couldn't think of anything better than just a smiley face to get him to rage. And after he left the game I just started laughing. I couldn't even imagine how upset he was."Yeh.. Looks like a normal progamer who just wants to be good like all the mods say. Spending your free time just to get someone rage by cheesing of forcing him to kill every building on map. I was seriously surprised when Idra recieved 2 day ban and cruncher wasn't even warned.. I understand 90 day ban from mod perspective tho.
Can't emphasize how good this post is in providing evidence toward CrunCher's intent to troll IdrA. He clearly wants to get a rise out of IdrA, and he deliberately did so during the stream incident. I simply don't think it's fair that he isn't getting some sort of punishment for that, since the blame lies with both sides.
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On May 09 2011 07:55 Omegalisk wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2011 07:51 zJayy962 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 09 2011 07:48 GeeseHoward wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2011 07:35 huameng wrote:On May 09 2011 07:09 GeeseHoward wrote:On May 09 2011 06:53 huameng wrote:On May 09 2011 06:45 GeeseHoward wrote:On May 09 2011 06:40 FuTon wrote:On May 09 2011 06:33 GeeseHoward wrote:
I can provide screen shots of my conversation with Chill. At no point did he ask me to stop or imply he didn't want to receive those messages. I'm going to quote wikipedia on the subject, "It is commonly understood as behaviour intended to disturb or upset, and it is characteristically repetitive. In the legal sense, it is intentional behaviour which is found threatening or disturbing." Thus it's commonly accepted for a action to become harassment, a party has to ask the other party in some form to stop.
I would like to point out section 3 of your ten commandments which states, "... If you believe a certain ban was a mistake, you can contact a Mod through PM or in our IRC channel, but please be respectful about it. Do not take things into your own hands by posting "Ban?" or telling users they will be banned. You PM Moderators to let them know about specific posts or threads, but let them handle it after that."
Two things, everyone that contact Chill about the ban was in the right according to the rules as long as they were being respectful. If they choose to violate the rules that was once again, their action. Not Greg Fields.
Last, the Idra Banned for 90 Days creates a double stander. Where it implied in the rules that such threads should not be create since it seems to be TL staff would prefer to deal with such matters in private.
Thus I humbly request you do not ban Greg "IdrA" Fields for 90 days. Since his tweet did not tell people to harass it clearly states, "wont be streaming for 2 days as i have been banned from tl for insulting cruncher, everyone pm Chill if this upsets you". Which is clearly in the rules that you are allow to, "If you believe a certain ban was a mistake, you can contact a Mod through PM..." I do not see any rule that was broken to increase IdrA's ban to 90 days.
I would also like to request that moderate actions on the Team Liquid forums be base solely on items that happen on the forums. Actions that happen on other outlets should be not be dealt with on the Team Liquid forums.
Thank you. Idra told TL staffs that he did it on purpose. Proof: On May 09 2011 06:15 IntoTheWow wrote:On May 09 2011 06:04 eNtitY~ wrote:
This is a really stupid move, it's not like he told people to mass spam Chill and harass him about why. He just said he was banned and if they had a problem to PM Chill... The staff needs to lighten up a bit here because what he did really shouldn't be that big of a deal. All TL admins are doing is taking away from the community because now no one gets to benefit from the week of analysis he was going to do. Considering ~18k people watch it the first day there was a lot of interest there.
Overboard IMO. TL Staff talked about it with Idra. He said he did it on purpose to annoy Chill. We are not taking anything from you. If Idra doesn't want to stream, it's his own decision. We don't have a power button to switch his computer or stream off. I have read that, but that unrelated to my post. I personally message Chill, because I did not agree with the banned and I followed the rules. It a decision of the individual. Thus if rules were violate and Chill was harass, that is the fault of the individual who made that decision, not Greg "IdrA" Fields. I don't see how it's unrelated, it seems about as related as something could possibly be. His tweet didn't directly tell people to harass, but he meant it to harass, and since Idra did something to have Chill harassed, he is the one who gets punished. Since the PMs weren't harassment, but protesting a ban, which is standard procedure and allowed, the users who sent the PMs were not punished. But Idra, who wanted Chill to be harassed and attempted to make it happen, gets punished. It makes perfect sense to me. It's unrelated cause his intent doesn't control me. It was a clear statement which is clearly allowed in the rules. I'm sorry you don't understand. I clearly have the intent for wanting lower gas prices, but it's outside of my power to do so. Greg can clearly want people to harass Chill but it's out side of his power to make them do so. It was still a individual decision and I strongly do not support moderating actions that happen outside of the forums. It's very close if not online bulling. Idra's actions being outside the forums are irrelevant to this discussion I think. TL taking action on stuff that happens outside the site is a totally different issue. And yes, Idra just wanting chill to be harassed doesn't mean Idra should get banned. But he didn't just want to do so, he took action to make it happen, and this is when it crosses the line between okay and against the rules. Similarly, if you hire an assassin to get someone killed, you will still be in trouble even though you didn't actually murder anyone and it was the assassin's choice to kill. Metaphor debate. IdrA didn't hire me to harass Chill. He made a blank statement and it was up to the individual. Thus it's not like hiring a assassin to get someone killed. Since you are actually paying to get a job done. I want this person taken care of. <--- Blank statement when you hire an assassin. You will still go to prison if this person killed. Much different. Hiring an assassin is specifically telling somebody to commit a crime. All IdrA said was to PM Chill, not harass him, not insult him, not bear any malice towards him. Killing somebody is a crime. PM'ing is not.
people do not understand this... sadly your post will fall on deaf ears.
idra's intent to annoy via fan's pm to chill= death threats/harass.
crunchers intent to annoy via sniping/trolling = lol wut w.e can't do anything bout it it's not in our jurisdiction.
combatex does his thing outside forum = banned in forum.
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On May 09 2011 07:56 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2011 07:48 HolyArrow wrote:On May 09 2011 07:44 Azarkon wrote:On May 09 2011 07:40 HolyArrow wrote:
Is it really against the rules to "incite" against Chill when the nature of the "inciting" merely entails PMing to protest a ban, which seems to be within the rules of TL? Like someone else said, if a mod bans someone and it is within the rules to PM that mod if one thinks the ban is unjust, it is the mod's burden to deal with those PMs, and even if IdrA wanted to annoy Chill, it was ultimately the actual people who PM'd Chill with the intent to troll who are to blame. Like I said earlier, people could have easily PM'd Chill with rational, well-thought out arguments, and it's not IdrA's fault that many people didn't do that. 1. Idra didn't tell his fans to ask for his unbanning. He told his fans to bitch to Chill about him not streaming for the next two days (which isn't even up to Chill). Read what he said on twitter. 2. The TL staff went and talked to Idra afterward to verify what he wanted to happen. He admitted that he wanted to annoy Chill and that he doesn't regret it. This is the reason for the ban. That's just differences in how we interpret the twitter post. "PM Chill if my ban upsets you" can easily be interpreted as "PM Chill if you think my ban was unjust and want to argue against it". As for point number 2, I have acknowledged the fact that IdrA admitted to intending to annoy Chill. I believe I address that point in the post you quote. The key point here is not solely IdrA's intent - it's whether or not asking people to PM a mod if they think your ban is unjust (even if you intend those PMs to annoy the mod) is against the rules or not, since PMing a mod to express an opinion about a wrongful ban is not against the rules at all. The inciter of a riot takes the brunt of the responsibility. Personally, I think you're arguing petty details for the sake of muddying the waters. It's not that we're ignoring you - it's that your argument just isn't that good. Idra decided to make a point by blaming his not streaming on Chill and inciting his pissed off viewers to "do something about it." He acknowledged this was his intention afterward and showed no remorse. In response, TL decided to give him a 90 day timeout. That's all there is to it.
The thing is that a riot entails illegal actions - violence, destruction of property, etc. "Inciting" people to PM Chill is a far more grey area, since PMing a mod to talk about why one thinks a moderation is unjust is not illegal.
I'm sorry that you think I'm arguing petty things, but I think I'm making valid points.
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EPT
