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Hello, all!
It's become quite apparent that many of you are not reading the first post carefully.
Failure to do so in the future will be met with swift punishment. And as always, remember to be civil.
Thanks,
Empyrean. Time stamp: 03:59 KST. |
On May 09 2011 08:06 Asparagus wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2011 08:04 Nilrem wrote:On May 09 2011 07:59 S.O.L.I.D. wrote:On May 09 2011 07:56 HolyArrow wrote:On May 09 2011 07:54 Crawler wrote:On May 09 2011 07:03 Xacez wrote:
Trolling =! Stream sniping
Many players snipe, be it pro gamers or not, there is nothing wrong with it. Look at TotalBiscuit, who does daily streaming, he gets snipe'd about once a day, you don't see him complaining on TL about that. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=206261 Most people here probably see wall of text and won't even read so I'll quote his exact words: "Thanks. I feel awesome. After he left I just started laughing uncontrollably and thinking how much he was raging.""I actually do not even know where all his rage comes from, but it is hilarious. Whenever I match him on ladder I just cheese him to get him to rage, so maybe from there? He rages at everyone he loses to, so who knows. But I have zero respect for a player like Idra.""Right before he left I made a smiley face just to get him to rage more. After every game he kept trash talking, even after he lost the first game. I couldn't think of anything better than just a smiley face to get him to rage. And after he left the game I just started laughing. I couldn't even imagine how upset he was."Yeh.. Looks like a normal progamer who just wants to be good like all the mods say. Spending your free time just to get someone rage by cheesing of forcing him to kill every building on map. I was seriously surprised when Idra recieved 2 day ban and cruncher wasn't even warned.. I understand 90 day ban from mod perspective tho. Can't emphasize how good this post is in providing evidence toward CrunCher's intent to troll IdrA. He clearly wants to get a rise out of IdrA, and he deliberately did so during the stream incident. I simply don't think it's fair that he isn't getting some sort of punishment for that, since the blame lies with both sides. I agree. CrunCher is the reason IdrA was banned in the first place (IdrA would not have made his comment regarding CrunCher had the latter not been trolling him) and yet he gets no punishment whatsoever. Trolls should be banned. CrunCher trolled. He's not banned. What's wrong with this picture? So if I log onto Sc2 right now, and troll you, I should be banned from Team Liquid? Or how about, if I found your Fb and trolled you there, should I be banned on Team Liquid? To say Trolls should be banned is incredibly vague. CrunCher trolled IdrA in Starcraft II; IdrA responded in a post on Team Liquid, and than further intentionally sought out his followers to Pm Chill to annoy him who is a Mod on Team Liquid. So, do you see a difference? TL has previously taken moderation for actions outside TL's jurisdiction (CombatEx's harassment)
That proves that they have decided they have the jurisdiction to do such a thing. It does not prove that you can claim what exactly that jurisdiction is.
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On May 09 2011 07:43 HolyArrow wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2011 07:42 Sein wrote:On May 09 2011 07:35 Mailing wrote:On May 09 2011 07:31 Deathmanbob wrote:On May 09 2011 07:26 Mailing wrote:On May 09 2011 07:25 Deindar wrote:
Shit. I've looked for about 100 different ways to try to criticize TL on their handling of this situation of this drama because I'm a rabid IdrA fan, but I really think they handled this maturally. Well done T.T Maturely handling it would be to ban both idra and cruncher. Not banning cruncher because of X Y and Z is just skewing reasons. When looked at objectively they both are to blame. how can you prove he cheated? stream sniping isnt cheating. i saw the game that caused all this and all that happened was cruncher walled off with a forge and double gate way... thats how i open on that map because its safe vs a all in just because someone goes all in and it gets counter by a safe opening does not mean he was cheating at all Look, here. 1. I am not saying he cheated. He sniped (not cheated) and trolls idra, REGULARLY. This is disrespectful to a veteran, against one of the TL commandments. 2. IdrA posted on twitter, which resulted in chill being spammed. HOWEVER YOU WANT TO LOOK AT THIS, THIS IS NOT AGAINST THE TL COMMANDMENT RULES. as idra did NOT post it on TL. I am not using this as justification, idra deserved to be banned regardless for insulting Cruncher. If Chill got mad at people disagreeing with the ban and PMing him about it, that is a burden he has to face as a moderator. 3. Being featured should have rules imposed, like everything else on this website. There are only a few featured, and they are usually the best teams or players. They should have standards. IdrA purely ladders, and only insults people who flame him first. He is quiet and passive on ladder. In that case, would you say Terran/Princess/Kitty/Brittany/Major also deserves a ban? Stream sniping is rather common these days with so many well known players streaming all the time. Don't think it's as much about the sniping as it is the clear intent to troll IdrA.
As far as BM'ing on the ladder goes, no one is better known than IdrA, yet he has never received a ban for it and it is the right decision as it isn't directly related to the TL forums.
I believe the only time TL bans players for their behavior on b.net is when they are caught hacking/cheating with 100% evidence, which I personally also agree with.
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[QUOTE]On May 08 2011 06:55 Chill wrote:
[QUOTE]On May 08 2011 06:54 Thermia wrote:
I'm not sure it's the best policy to ban people for things they do off the site, but I guess it's *somewhat* justified since the mods asked if he regretted saying things/won't change his behavior. Although, let's be real here, I don't think anyone at all expected a different answer to those questions. It seems like Idra has a history of making insulting posts, being temp banned (sometimes with a snide or possibly rude comment from the mod doing it), and then Idra insulting said mod when he is back. It just creates a cycle that Idra doesn't care to break, and TL cannot break because it would compromise their forum standards  [/QUOTE]
TL has a history of banning people for things they do off the site. Combat-Ex was banned for harassing Incontrol on SC2. 4 people were banned for leaving someone stranded at a lan.[/QUOTE]
how do i search for this on TL?
super curious
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On May 09 2011 08:09 Mailing wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2011 08:06 Kamikazess wrote:
People saying the wrong thing, again, again and again.
Cruncher trolled IdrA OUTSIDE TL. IdrA's bannable offense occurred INSIDE TL. This is the difference. It would be an atrocity to TL ban Cruncher for trolling someone in this person's stream, when this behavior had nothing to do with TL. IdrA's comment on Twitter had implications inside TL world, and this is the reason of the 90-day ban. Idra trolled Chill outside of TL, as well. Unless idra himself sent one of those 350 PMs, then there is no reasoning, based on established rules, to extend that ban. The extension was pure choice/whim of Nazgul Since it is their website, they have the CHOICE to do so. Given this, they have the CHOICE to also warn or ban Cruncher for trolling idra while streaming, they just don't want to.
IdrA said he intended to annoy Chill and did not regret it. On the forums.
For the last time, they did not ban him merely because of his twitter post.
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Ill be the first to admit i didnt read every single post in the 4+ thread dedicated to this topic atm, but one thing i keep seeing is "people only watch IdrA to see him rage", or only 12 year old watch him"
id just like to point out ( and im sure there are literally thousands of other fans who agree.) that i watch IdrA because he has without a doubt the best mechanics of any player who currently streams, has amazing depth perception in terms of scouting(half the time, hes so good, he can tell what they are doing by the smallest things, no scans or observers needed) and of course amazing unit control. and this is without his commentary( that brings it to a whole new level)
people love to throw the rage word anytime his name comes up, but seriously who cares? i dont watch Streamers to see if they type "gg or glhf" every game. i want to see them play. and other than the usual trolls in Justin.TV chat (and there really isnt alot of them, just seems like it) im sure so do other people. yes, he sometimes says amusing comments to other players( that usually minutely offensive at best compared to what people tell each other in RL. i dont think a day goes by where at least one random jackass threatens my life in some way) but people dont actually watch him steam for 2 hours at a time to pick up maybe 3 total sentences of his remarks. they watch him play bc hes the best damn player in NA.
some watch for entertainment, some watch to learn. some watch to see him dominate (please make a smurf IdrA for the next TL attack lolz)
but i seriously doubt more than 1% of his 18k viewers watch for BM. i find it disturbing how this hasnt seemed to come up yet.
TL:DR people watch IdrA bc hes an amazing player. noone really gives a shit about his dialogue in games, stop kidding yourselves
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On May 09 2011 08:09 Mailing wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2011 08:06 Kamikazess wrote:
People saying the wrong thing, again, again and again.
Cruncher trolled IdrA OUTSIDE TL. IdrA's bannable offense occurred INSIDE TL. This is the difference. It would be an atrocity to TL ban Cruncher for trolling someone in this person's stream, when this behavior had nothing to do with TL. IdrA's comment on Twitter had implications inside TL world, and this is the reason of the 90-day ban. Idra trolled Chill outside of TL, as well. Unless idra himself sent one of those 350 PMs, then there is no reasoning, based on established rules, to extend that ban. The extension was pure choice/whim of Nazgul Since it is their website, they have the CHOICE to do so. Given this, they have the CHOICE to also warn or ban Cruncher for trolling idra while streaming, they just don't want to.
The last part of my post is important to know the difference between the 2 situations. IdrA induce the harassment to Chill. And as I've already said, the TL moderation confirmed it. Idra said that he did it to annoy Chill, and that he won't apologize. This is far more than trolling outside TL.
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On May 09 2011 08:08 CosmicSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2011 07:50 Asparagus wrote:On May 09 2011 07:46 CosmicSpiral wrote:On May 09 2011 07:38 Asparagus wrote:On May 09 2011 07:24 snarl wrote:On May 09 2011 07:20 MonkSEA wrote:On May 09 2011 07:17 snarl wrote:On May 09 2011 07:15 MonkSEA wrote:On May 09 2011 07:12 RoyalCheese wrote:
What people fail to realize is that Cruncher didn't troll/whateveryoucallit via TL and therefore TL staff has no right to take any actions against him. Idra however insulted him via tl forum and got banned. Pretty fair case, imo. (btw yes i am <3 idra) Then Mr. Awesome, why was IdrA banned for 90 days when he trolled someone off of the TL website? Your logic is incorrect and therefore redundant. Did you miss the part where he told his legion of fans to send the mod a pm knowing full well it would result in spam? And did you miss the part where if we're playing this on assumptions then CrunCher should be assumed of stream cheating? Regardless of IdrA saying that, he did not out-right say "Spam Chill and harass him" he said if the ban upset you then don't ask IdrA, ask Chill. Nazgul spoke with idra after the fact, did you not read the op? IF it wasn't idra's intention to get chill spam PM'd he could have apologised and the thing would have blown over. But it clearly was his intent since he said he did not regret his actions. So please stop..you're grasping at straws here. Reposting the example if you did not see it. I tell my friends my boss is a douchebag and that i will pay for someone to cut his head off. Someone eventually hears that, does it and asks for my money, so am I to blame if police saw the whole thing? I saw the lakers game I'm so infuriated with how they played today because I lose $300 on a bet. I'm actually so infuriated that I post on my facebook that they're failures and terrorists should blow their plane up. Their plane crashes and FBI is at my door, am I a terrorist? I enjoy how people make assumptions and judge in absolutes for some cases or dismiss them entirely, but to prove others we need empirical evidence else they're innocent. The first situation, yes. The second situation, no. Please use better examples to support your non-existent arguments. wrong. you can't kill someone, point the finger and drag someone else into the blame because "he said he'd pay me to", unless you met with the person, agreed to the pay to have that person murdered. that's generally how it works in reality. the intent is that you wanted him dead, but evidence of neither an arranged agreement or your actual involvement in the murder would make you innocent. *edit* cmon dude i just realized this was in law abiding citizen, you can really really want someone dead, love to have someone dead and even plan out that person's murder in your head but if you don't have any proof that you did it you're good to go. IdrA twittered his angst and his fans followed, he knew chill would be annoyed by the masses peckering him and that increased the ban length. where is this in the rules? You misinterpreted my post as I knew you would. With the lack of details in the first situation, there's no reason to assume that you were not serious about your offer. If you added "jokingly" or some other qualifier then it's a matter of someone taking your words out of context. Of course the other crucial point is that the announcement is made in a private setting and wasn't meant to be heard outside of it. However this don't automatically exclude you from punishment either. Idra did not make his announcement in a private setting and did it with the forehand knowledge that some people would harass Chill after they read it. The second situation is completely different since the rage and the incident are pointed out to be caused by separate things. They just happened to coincide. Yet people didn't just decide to harass Chill on the same day Idra posted his tweet. A far more accurate (but still skewed) comparison is that of putting a price on someone's head. Actually if that was how it worked in reality no one would ever be accused of hiring assassins. Do you even know how this kind of stuff works? That's a movie. -_-
your argument falls on it's ass by the fact that you're implying idra hired anyone to do any of this.
twitter's viewed by anyone, and anyone can make a TL account. idra's intent was to annoy via PM.
not death threats, harass etc.
once again, you're implying Idra hired assassins.
Idra spoke out and his fans reacted, some negatively.
in my examples, i did not hire terrorists, i did not hire a man to cut my bosses head off.
in your examples, like i have stated before.. I can blame school shootings, local gang murders on eminem and rap songs, because they told me to pop some caps. and that they should be punished?
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On May 09 2011 08:12 Zeke50100 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2011 08:09 Mailing wrote:On May 09 2011 08:06 Kamikazess wrote:
People saying the wrong thing, again, again and again.
Cruncher trolled IdrA OUTSIDE TL. IdrA's bannable offense occurred INSIDE TL. This is the difference. It would be an atrocity to TL ban Cruncher for trolling someone in this person's stream, when this behavior had nothing to do with TL. IdrA's comment on Twitter had implications inside TL world, and this is the reason of the 90-day ban. Idra trolled Chill outside of TL, as well. Unless idra himself sent one of those 350 PMs, then there is no reasoning, based on established rules, to extend that ban. The extension was pure choice/whim of Nazgul Since it is their website, they have the CHOICE to do so. Given this, they have the CHOICE to also warn or ban Cruncher for trolling idra while streaming, they just don't want to. IdrA said he intended to annoy Chill and did not regret it. On the forums. For the last time, they did not ban him merely because of his twitter post.
idra did his 'annoying' over twitter though. and TL shouldnt be trying to police the internet, especially if its just a personal spat between 2 people.
On May 09 2011 08:13 Kamikazess wrote:
The last part of my post is important to know the difference between the 2 situations. IdrA induce the harassment to Chill. And as I've already said, the TL moderation confirmed it. Idra said that he did it to annoy Chill, and that he won't apologize. This is far more than trolling outside TL.
but idras twitter comment told his fans to follow teamliquids rules when you disbute moderation. him knowing it would annoy chill is not the same as him annoying chill. he didnt ask them to call him a faggot, or to harras him, he told them to follow the rules.
its the equivalent of being banned for telling people not to martyr, because the mod having to ban the martyrs is pissed at you for bringing it up
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On May 09 2011 08:04 Nilrem wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2011 07:59 S.O.L.I.D. wrote:On May 09 2011 07:56 HolyArrow wrote:On May 09 2011 07:54 Crawler wrote:On May 09 2011 07:03 Xacez wrote:
Trolling =! Stream sniping
Many players snipe, be it pro gamers or not, there is nothing wrong with it. Look at TotalBiscuit, who does daily streaming, he gets snipe'd about once a day, you don't see him complaining on TL about that. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=206261 Most people here probably see wall of text and won't even read so I'll quote his exact words: "Thanks. I feel awesome. After he left I just started laughing uncontrollably and thinking how much he was raging.""I actually do not even know where all his rage comes from, but it is hilarious. Whenever I match him on ladder I just cheese him to get him to rage, so maybe from there? He rages at everyone he loses to, so who knows. But I have zero respect for a player like Idra.""Right before he left I made a smiley face just to get him to rage more. After every game he kept trash talking, even after he lost the first game. I couldn't think of anything better than just a smiley face to get him to rage. And after he left the game I just started laughing. I couldn't even imagine how upset he was."Yeh.. Looks like a normal progamer who just wants to be good like all the mods say. Spending your free time just to get someone rage by cheesing of forcing him to kill every building on map. I was seriously surprised when Idra recieved 2 day ban and cruncher wasn't even warned.. I understand 90 day ban from mod perspective tho. Can't emphasize how good this post is in providing evidence toward CrunCher's intent to troll IdrA. He clearly wants to get a rise out of IdrA, and he deliberately did so during the stream incident. I simply don't think it's fair that he isn't getting some sort of punishment for that, since the blame lies with both sides. I agree. CrunCher is the reason IdrA was banned in the first place (IdrA would not have made his comment regarding CrunCher had the latter not been trolling him) and yet he gets no punishment whatsoever. Trolls should be banned. CrunCher trolled. He's not banned. What's wrong with this picture? So if I log onto Sc2 right now, and troll you, I should be banned from Team Liquid? Or how about, if I found your Fb and trolled you there, should I be banned on Team Liquid? To say Trolls should be banned is incredibly vague. CrunCher trolled IdrA in Starcraft II; IdrA responded in a post on Team Liquid, and than further intentionally sought out his followers to Pm Chill to annoy him who is a Mod on Team Liquid. So, do you see a difference?
Wrong, again people don't know the facts.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=205926¤tpage=16#301
Idra bashing cruncher or cruncher bashing Idra in stream has nothing to do with it but cruncher went to his own fan club to get some attention. He knew that Idra will hear about it one way or another because of his own fanboys. Problem started from his Team Liquid post, not from the stream.
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United States15275 Posts
On May 09 2011 08:13 Asparagus wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2011 08:08 CosmicSpiral wrote:On May 09 2011 07:50 Asparagus wrote:On May 09 2011 07:46 CosmicSpiral wrote:On May 09 2011 07:38 Asparagus wrote:On May 09 2011 07:24 snarl wrote:On May 09 2011 07:20 MonkSEA wrote:On May 09 2011 07:17 snarl wrote:On May 09 2011 07:15 MonkSEA wrote:On May 09 2011 07:12 RoyalCheese wrote:
What people fail to realize is that Cruncher didn't troll/whateveryoucallit via TL and therefore TL staff has no right to take any actions against him. Idra however insulted him via tl forum and got banned. Pretty fair case, imo. (btw yes i am <3 idra) Then Mr. Awesome, why was IdrA banned for 90 days when he trolled someone off of the TL website? Your logic is incorrect and therefore redundant. Did you miss the part where he told his legion of fans to send the mod a pm knowing full well it would result in spam? And did you miss the part where if we're playing this on assumptions then CrunCher should be assumed of stream cheating? Regardless of IdrA saying that, he did not out-right say "Spam Chill and harass him" he said if the ban upset you then don't ask IdrA, ask Chill. Nazgul spoke with idra after the fact, did you not read the op? IF it wasn't idra's intention to get chill spam PM'd he could have apologised and the thing would have blown over. But it clearly was his intent since he said he did not regret his actions. So please stop..you're grasping at straws here. Reposting the example if you did not see it. I tell my friends my boss is a douchebag and that i will pay for someone to cut his head off. Someone eventually hears that, does it and asks for my money, so am I to blame if police saw the whole thing? I saw the lakers game I'm so infuriated with how they played today because I lose $300 on a bet. I'm actually so infuriated that I post on my facebook that they're failures and terrorists should blow their plane up. Their plane crashes and FBI is at my door, am I a terrorist? I enjoy how people make assumptions and judge in absolutes for some cases or dismiss them entirely, but to prove others we need empirical evidence else they're innocent. The first situation, yes. The second situation, no. Please use better examples to support your non-existent arguments. wrong. you can't kill someone, point the finger and drag someone else into the blame because "he said he'd pay me to", unless you met with the person, agreed to the pay to have that person murdered. that's generally how it works in reality. the intent is that you wanted him dead, but evidence of neither an arranged agreement or your actual involvement in the murder would make you innocent. *edit* cmon dude i just realized this was in law abiding citizen, you can really really want someone dead, love to have someone dead and even plan out that person's murder in your head but if you don't have any proof that you did it you're good to go. IdrA twittered his angst and his fans followed, he knew chill would be annoyed by the masses peckering him and that increased the ban length. where is this in the rules? You misinterpreted my post as I knew you would. With the lack of details in the first situation, there's no reason to assume that you were not serious about your offer. If you added "jokingly" or some other qualifier then it's a matter of someone taking your words out of context. Of course the other crucial point is that the announcement is made in a private setting and wasn't meant to be heard outside of it. However this don't automatically exclude you from punishment either. Idra did not make his announcement in a private setting and did it with the forehand knowledge that some people would harass Chill after they read it. The second situation is completely different since the rage and the incident are pointed out to be caused by separate things. They just happened to coincide. Yet people didn't just decide to harass Chill on the same day Idra posted his tweet. A far more accurate (but still skewed) comparison is that of putting a price on someone's head. Actually if that was how it worked in reality no one would ever be accused of hiring assassins. Do you even know how this kind of stuff works? That's a movie. -_- your argument falls on it's ass by the fact that you're implying idra hired anyone to do any of this. twitter's viewed by anyone, and anyone can make a TL account. idra's intent was to annoy via PM. not death threats, harass etc. once again, you're implying Idra hired assassins. Idra spoke out and his fans reacted, some negatively. in my examples, i did not hire terrorists, i did not hire a man to cut my bosses head off. in your examples, like i have stated before.. I can blame school shootings, local gang murders on eminem and rap songs, because they told me to pop some caps.
Read my edited post silly goose.
LOL you're so confused you're taking your own metaphors seriously and getting pissed off at them. I'm just explaining the extent to which they correspond with this situation. In other words I'm trying to do you a favor and you just keep digging yourself deeper.
P.S. Putting a price on someone's head =/= hiring assassins. In fact it's done precisely to insert plausible denial. But context is also relevant. Idra would only to be off the hook if he was completely ignorant of his fanbase and the potential consequences of his actions. But as we see with his confession (and with the neglect to ask people close to him to petition TL) he intended for people to annoy Chill.
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On May 09 2011 08:12 cavalier117 wrote:
Ill be the first to admit i didnt read every single post in the 4+ thread dedicated to this topic atm, but one thing i keep seeing is "people only watch IdrA to see him rage", or only 12 year old watch him"
id just like to point out ( and im sure there are literally thousands of other fans who agree.) that i watch IdrA because he has without a doubt the best mechanics of any player who currently streams, has amazing depth perception in terms of scouting(half the time, hes so good, he can tell what they are doing by the smallest things, no scans or observers needed) and of course amazing unit control. and this is without his commentary( that brings it to a whole new level)
people love to throw the rage word anytime his name comes up, but seriously who cares? i dont watch Streamers to see if they type "gg or glhf" every game. i want to see them play. and other than the usual trolls in Justin.TV chat (and there really isnt alot of them, just seems like it) im sure so do other people. yes, he sometimes says amusing comments to other players( that usually minutely offensive at best compared to what people tell each other in RL. i dont think a day goes by where at least one random jackass threatens my life in some way) but people dont actually watch him steam for 2 hours at a time to pick up maybe 3 total sentences of his remarks. they watch him play bc hes the best damn player in NA.
some watch for entertainment, some watch to learn. some watch to see him dominate (please make a smurf IdrA for the next TL attack lolz)
but i seriously doubt more than 1% of his 18k viewers watch for BM. i find it disturbing how this hasnt seemed to come up yet.
TL:DR people watch IdrA bc hes an amazing player. noone really gives a shit about his dialogue in games, stop kidding yourselves
Completely agree. I don't see any offense when people call others "idra fanboys", there are plenty of fans just because he is clearly an extraordinary player and his play speaks for itself.
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On May 09 2011 08:11 KingOfKangTheHee wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 06:55 Chill wrote:On May 08 2011 06:54 Thermia wrote:I'm not sure it's the best policy to ban people for things they do off the site, but I guess it's *somewhat* justified since the mods asked if he regretted saying things/won't change his behavior. Although, let's be real here, I don't think anyone at all expected a different answer to those questions. It seems like Idra has a history of making insulting posts, being temp banned (sometimes with a snide or possibly rude comment from the mod doing it), and then Idra insulting said mod when he is back. It just creates a cycle that Idra doesn't care to break, and TL cannot break because it would compromise their forum standards TL has a history of banning people for things they do off the site. Combat-Ex was banned for harassing Incontrol on SC2. 4 people were banned for leaving someone stranded at a lan.[ how do i search for this on TL? super curious
Community Ban (link)
There it is!
On May 09 2011 08:13 turdburgler wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2011 08:12 Zeke50100 wrote:On May 09 2011 08:09 Mailing wrote:On May 09 2011 08:06 Kamikazess wrote:
People saying the wrong thing, again, again and again.
Cruncher trolled IdrA OUTSIDE TL. IdrA's bannable offense occurred INSIDE TL. This is the difference. It would be an atrocity to TL ban Cruncher for trolling someone in this person's stream, when this behavior had nothing to do with TL. IdrA's comment on Twitter had implications inside TL world, and this is the reason of the 90-day ban. Idra trolled Chill outside of TL, as well. Unless idra himself sent one of those 350 PMs, then there is no reasoning, based on established rules, to extend that ban. The extension was pure choice/whim of Nazgul Since it is their website, they have the CHOICE to do so. Given this, they have the CHOICE to also warn or ban Cruncher for trolling idra while streaming, they just don't want to. IdrA said he intended to annoy Chill and did not regret it. On the forums. For the last time, they did not ban him merely because of his twitter post. idra did his 'annoying' over twitter though. and TL shouldnt be trying to police the internet, especially if its just a personal spat between 2 people.
It doesn't matter where the actual thing happened. Saying on TL that you did it to annoy somebody on the forums is trolling in itself.
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No idea why some guy like idra banned so many times and still gets unbanned.
imo this is kind of borderline issue where you have to consider a great, skillful player with a person who is proud of himself and try to defend and say whatever he wants regardless where and who other one is. Only one thing i dont understand is that his stream is still allowed on TL. Then whats point of ban?
I think person like idra plays by different rules which reminds me of recent episode DrHouse.
Anyway, i hope both sides find a good solution to solve this problem, otherwise the rope should be cut to bring peace. This issue is getting really childish and boring.
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I'm not quite sure how so many of you are rushing to idra's defense in this case. He's stated multiple times that he wants to be involved in making SC2 big in NA. However, with his current mindset, he would make a horrible face for the sc2 community. Needs to be a lot less immature, and the only way to do that is to stop giving the guy a free pass anytime he goes around insulting players (who cares about a little trolling here or there). How many of you can honestly say that it's fine that he trash talks so many players in NA that say absolutely nothing about him. Look at last week's SOTG, called kiwi bad. MLG - called huk bad. Now he goes and says cruncher is a waste of life. Can be bitter all he wants, but he gets away with this kind of stuff too much and too many people make him a martyr for saying these kinds of things and really needs to be taught that what he does and says have consequences.
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On May 09 2011 08:13 Kamikazess wrote:
The last part of my post is important to know the difference between the 2 situations. IdrA induce the harassment to Chill. And as I've already said, the TL moderation confirmed it. Idra said that he did it to annoy Chill, and that he won't apologize. This is far more than trolling outside TL.
On May 09 2011 08:13 turdburgler wrote:
but idras twitter comment told his fans to follow teamliquids rules when you disbute moderation. him knowing it would annoy chill is not the same as him annoying chill. he didnt ask them to call him a faggot, or to harras him, he told them to follow the rules.
IdrA said he did it with the intention to annoy Chill. He knew, beforehand, what probably would happen and did what he did, trying to annoy Chill.
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On May 09 2011 08:15 CosmicSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2011 08:13 Asparagus wrote:On May 09 2011 08:08 CosmicSpiral wrote:On May 09 2011 07:50 Asparagus wrote:On May 09 2011 07:46 CosmicSpiral wrote:On May 09 2011 07:38 Asparagus wrote:On May 09 2011 07:24 snarl wrote:On May 09 2011 07:20 MonkSEA wrote:On May 09 2011 07:17 snarl wrote:On May 09 2011 07:15 MonkSEA wrote:
[quote]
Then Mr. Awesome, why was IdrA banned for 90 days when he trolled someone off of the TL website? Your logic is incorrect and therefore redundant. Did you miss the part where he told his legion of fans to send the mod a pm knowing full well it would result in spam? And did you miss the part where if we're playing this on assumptions then CrunCher should be assumed of stream cheating? Regardless of IdrA saying that, he did not out-right say "Spam Chill and harass him" he said if the ban upset you then don't ask IdrA, ask Chill. Nazgul spoke with idra after the fact, did you not read the op? IF it wasn't idra's intention to get chill spam PM'd he could have apologised and the thing would have blown over. But it clearly was his intent since he said he did not regret his actions. So please stop..you're grasping at straws here. Reposting the example if you did not see it. I tell my friends my boss is a douchebag and that i will pay for someone to cut his head off. Someone eventually hears that, does it and asks for my money, so am I to blame if police saw the whole thing? I saw the lakers game I'm so infuriated with how they played today because I lose $300 on a bet. I'm actually so infuriated that I post on my facebook that they're failures and terrorists should blow their plane up. Their plane crashes and FBI is at my door, am I a terrorist? I enjoy how people make assumptions and judge in absolutes for some cases or dismiss them entirely, but to prove others we need empirical evidence else they're innocent. The first situation, yes. The second situation, no. Please use better examples to support your non-existent arguments. wrong. you can't kill someone, point the finger and drag someone else into the blame because "he said he'd pay me to", unless you met with the person, agreed to the pay to have that person murdered. that's generally how it works in reality. the intent is that you wanted him dead, but evidence of neither an arranged agreement or your actual involvement in the murder would make you innocent. *edit* cmon dude i just realized this was in law abiding citizen, you can really really want someone dead, love to have someone dead and even plan out that person's murder in your head but if you don't have any proof that you did it you're good to go. IdrA twittered his angst and his fans followed, he knew chill would be annoyed by the masses peckering him and that increased the ban length. where is this in the rules? You misinterpreted my post as I knew you would. With the lack of details in the first situation, there's no reason to assume that you were not serious about your offer. If you added "jokingly" or some other qualifier then it's a matter of someone taking your words out of context. Of course the other crucial point is that the announcement is made in a private setting and wasn't meant to be heard outside of it. However this don't automatically exclude you from punishment either. Idra did not make his announcement in a private setting and did it with the forehand knowledge that some people would harass Chill after they read it. The second situation is completely different since the rage and the incident are pointed out to be caused by separate things. They just happened to coincide. Yet people didn't just decide to harass Chill on the same day Idra posted his tweet. A far more accurate (but still skewed) comparison is that of putting a price on someone's head. Actually if that was how it worked in reality no one would ever be accused of hiring assassins. Do you even know how this kind of stuff works? That's a movie. -_- your argument falls on it's ass by the fact that you're implying idra hired anyone to do any of this. twitter's viewed by anyone, and anyone can make a TL account. idra's intent was to annoy via PM. not death threats, harass etc. once again, you're implying Idra hired assassins. Idra spoke out and his fans reacted, some negatively. in my examples, i did not hire terrorists, i did not hire a man to cut my bosses head off. in your examples, like i have stated before.. I can blame school shootings, local gang murders on eminem and rap songs, because they told me to pop some caps. Read my edited post silly goose.
you can pick apart my very simple examples as much as you want, place them in whatever area you want, be it an alley or a local bar, the mall etc. put the tone in which I'm speaking to my friends about my boss in whatever context or anger, or middle eastern accent, because in simple examples like that you can read it a million ways and have a million different situations and exceptions. just like you can read a million different ways "wont be streaming for 2 days as i have been banned from tl for insulting cruncher, everyone pm Chill if this upsets you" into whatever action the individual might take towards chill.
TLDR not gonna go into or try explain the examples anymore, the point i made is intent alone is not justifiable means to place blame.
Idra didn't give a shit or a second thought as to what those actions may be, that's chills problem and he knew chill would be annoyed. How this relates to trolling, and how if it does relate, cruncher's trolling of idra makes a big difference, as combatex's trolling of incontrol outside of TL jurisdiction brought a ban, it should rightfully be so for cruncher.
p.s not mad =)
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On May 09 2011 08:16 Zeke50100 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2011 08:11 KingOfKangTheHee wrote:On May 08 2011 06:55 Chill wrote:On May 08 2011 06:54 Thermia wrote:I'm not sure it's the best policy to ban people for things they do off the site, but I guess it's *somewhat* justified since the mods asked if he regretted saying things/won't change his behavior. Although, let's be real here, I don't think anyone at all expected a different answer to those questions. It seems like Idra has a history of making insulting posts, being temp banned (sometimes with a snide or possibly rude comment from the mod doing it), and then Idra insulting said mod when he is back. It just creates a cycle that Idra doesn't care to break, and TL cannot break because it would compromise their forum standards TL has a history of banning people for things they do off the site. Combat-Ex was banned for harassing Incontrol on SC2. 4 people were banned for leaving someone stranded at a lan.[ how do i search for this on TL? super curious Community Ban (link)There it is! Show nested quote +On May 09 2011 08:13 turdburgler wrote:On May 09 2011 08:12 Zeke50100 wrote:On May 09 2011 08:09 Mailing wrote:On May 09 2011 08:06 Kamikazess wrote:
People saying the wrong thing, again, again and again.
Cruncher trolled IdrA OUTSIDE TL. IdrA's bannable offense occurred INSIDE TL. This is the difference. It would be an atrocity to TL ban Cruncher for trolling someone in this person's stream, when this behavior had nothing to do with TL. IdrA's comment on Twitter had implications inside TL world, and this is the reason of the 90-day ban. Idra trolled Chill outside of TL, as well. Unless idra himself sent one of those 350 PMs, then there is no reasoning, based on established rules, to extend that ban. The extension was pure choice/whim of Nazgul Since it is their website, they have the CHOICE to do so. Given this, they have the CHOICE to also warn or ban Cruncher for trolling idra while streaming, they just don't want to. IdrA said he intended to annoy Chill and did not regret it. On the forums. For the last time, they did not ban him merely because of his twitter post. idra did his 'annoying' over twitter though. and TL shouldnt be trying to police the internet, especially if its just a personal spat between 2 people. It doesn't matter where the actual thing happened. Saying on TL that you did it to annoy somebody on the forums is trolling in itself.
oh wow. thanks for the link
came for idra, left with insane story
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On May 09 2011 08:22 KingOfKangTheHee wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2011 08:16 Zeke50100 wrote:On May 09 2011 08:11 KingOfKangTheHee wrote:On May 08 2011 06:55 Chill wrote:On May 08 2011 06:54 Thermia wrote:I'm not sure it's the best policy to ban people for things they do off the site, but I guess it's *somewhat* justified since the mods asked if he regretted saying things/won't change his behavior. Although, let's be real here, I don't think anyone at all expected a different answer to those questions. It seems like Idra has a history of making insulting posts, being temp banned (sometimes with a snide or possibly rude comment from the mod doing it), and then Idra insulting said mod when he is back. It just creates a cycle that Idra doesn't care to break, and TL cannot break because it would compromise their forum standards TL has a history of banning people for things they do off the site. Combat-Ex was banned for harassing Incontrol on SC2. 4 people were banned for leaving someone stranded at a lan.[ how do i search for this on TL? super curious Community Ban (link)There it is! On May 09 2011 08:13 turdburgler wrote:On May 09 2011 08:12 Zeke50100 wrote:On May 09 2011 08:09 Mailing wrote:On May 09 2011 08:06 Kamikazess wrote:
People saying the wrong thing, again, again and again.
Cruncher trolled IdrA OUTSIDE TL. IdrA's bannable offense occurred INSIDE TL. This is the difference. It would be an atrocity to TL ban Cruncher for trolling someone in this person's stream, when this behavior had nothing to do with TL. IdrA's comment on Twitter had implications inside TL world, and this is the reason of the 90-day ban. Idra trolled Chill outside of TL, as well. Unless idra himself sent one of those 350 PMs, then there is no reasoning, based on established rules, to extend that ban. The extension was pure choice/whim of Nazgul Since it is their website, they have the CHOICE to do so. Given this, they have the CHOICE to also warn or ban Cruncher for trolling idra while streaming, they just don't want to. IdrA said he intended to annoy Chill and did not regret it. On the forums. For the last time, they did not ban him merely because of his twitter post. idra did his 'annoying' over twitter though. and TL shouldnt be trying to police the internet, especially if its just a personal spat between 2 people. It doesn't matter where the actual thing happened. Saying on TL that you did it to annoy somebody on the forums is trolling in itself. oh wow. thanks for the link came for idra, left with insane story
Well, that pretty much kills all the "outside of the jurisdiction of TL" arguments. Seems like it's just totally at the mod's discretion whether or not to punish for stuff outside of the actual TL site.
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On May 09 2011 08:25 HolyArrow wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2011 08:22 KingOfKangTheHee wrote:On May 09 2011 08:16 Zeke50100 wrote:On May 09 2011 08:11 KingOfKangTheHee wrote:On May 08 2011 06:55 Chill wrote:On May 08 2011 06:54 Thermia wrote:I'm not sure it's the best policy to ban people for things they do off the site, but I guess it's *somewhat* justified since the mods asked if he regretted saying things/won't change his behavior. Although, let's be real here, I don't think anyone at all expected a different answer to those questions. It seems like Idra has a history of making insulting posts, being temp banned (sometimes with a snide or possibly rude comment from the mod doing it), and then Idra insulting said mod when he is back. It just creates a cycle that Idra doesn't care to break, and TL cannot break because it would compromise their forum standards TL has a history of banning people for things they do off the site. Combat-Ex was banned for harassing Incontrol on SC2. 4 people were banned for leaving someone stranded at a lan.[ how do i search for this on TL? super curious Community Ban (link)There it is! On May 09 2011 08:13 turdburgler wrote:On May 09 2011 08:12 Zeke50100 wrote:On May 09 2011 08:09 Mailing wrote:On May 09 2011 08:06 Kamikazess wrote:
People saying the wrong thing, again, again and again.
Cruncher trolled IdrA OUTSIDE TL. IdrA's bannable offense occurred INSIDE TL. This is the difference. It would be an atrocity to TL ban Cruncher for trolling someone in this person's stream, when this behavior had nothing to do with TL. IdrA's comment on Twitter had implications inside TL world, and this is the reason of the 90-day ban. Idra trolled Chill outside of TL, as well. Unless idra himself sent one of those 350 PMs, then there is no reasoning, based on established rules, to extend that ban. The extension was pure choice/whim of Nazgul Since it is their website, they have the CHOICE to do so. Given this, they have the CHOICE to also warn or ban Cruncher for trolling idra while streaming, they just don't want to. IdrA said he intended to annoy Chill and did not regret it. On the forums. For the last time, they did not ban him merely because of his twitter post. idra did his 'annoying' over twitter though. and TL shouldnt be trying to police the internet, especially if its just a personal spat between 2 people. It doesn't matter where the actual thing happened. Saying on TL that you did it to annoy somebody on the forums is trolling in itself. oh wow. thanks for the link came for idra, left with insane story Well, that pretty much kills all the "outside of the jurisdiction of TL" arguments. Seems like it's just totally at the mod's discretion whether or not to punish for stuff outside of the actual TL site.
pretty much. don't call them commandments when there's exceptions.
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Considering they had actually stolen from another member, I'd say that's negatively affecting the community to the point where an action should be taken. In comparison, what Cruncher "did" is nothing.
On May 09 2011 08:26 Asparagus wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2011 08:25 HolyArrow wrote:On May 09 2011 08:22 KingOfKangTheHee wrote:On May 09 2011 08:16 Zeke50100 wrote:On May 09 2011 08:11 KingOfKangTheHee wrote:On May 08 2011 06:55 Chill wrote:On May 08 2011 06:54 Thermia wrote:I'm not sure it's the best policy to ban people for things they do off the site, but I guess it's *somewhat* justified since the mods asked if he regretted saying things/won't change his behavior. Although, let's be real here, I don't think anyone at all expected a different answer to those questions. It seems like Idra has a history of making insulting posts, being temp banned (sometimes with a snide or possibly rude comment from the mod doing it), and then Idra insulting said mod when he is back. It just creates a cycle that Idra doesn't care to break, and TL cannot break because it would compromise their forum standards TL has a history of banning people for things they do off the site. Combat-Ex was banned for harassing Incontrol on SC2. 4 people were banned for leaving someone stranded at a lan.[ how do i search for this on TL? super curious Community Ban (link)There it is! On May 09 2011 08:13 turdburgler wrote:On May 09 2011 08:12 Zeke50100 wrote:On May 09 2011 08:09 Mailing wrote:On May 09 2011 08:06 Kamikazess wrote:
People saying the wrong thing, again, again and again.
Cruncher trolled IdrA OUTSIDE TL. IdrA's bannable offense occurred INSIDE TL. This is the difference. It would be an atrocity to TL ban Cruncher for trolling someone in this person's stream, when this behavior had nothing to do with TL. IdrA's comment on Twitter had implications inside TL world, and this is the reason of the 90-day ban. Idra trolled Chill outside of TL, as well. Unless idra himself sent one of those 350 PMs, then there is no reasoning, based on established rules, to extend that ban. The extension was pure choice/whim of Nazgul Since it is their website, they have the CHOICE to do so. Given this, they have the CHOICE to also warn or ban Cruncher for trolling idra while streaming, they just don't want to. IdrA said he intended to annoy Chill and did not regret it. On the forums. For the last time, they did not ban him merely because of his twitter post. idra did his 'annoying' over twitter though. and TL shouldnt be trying to police the internet, especially if its just a personal spat between 2 people. It doesn't matter where the actual thing happened. Saying on TL that you did it to annoy somebody on the forums is trolling in itself. oh wow. thanks for the link came for idra, left with insane story Well, that pretty much kills all the "outside of the jurisdiction of TL" arguments. Seems like it's just totally at the mod's discretion whether or not to punish for stuff outside of the actual TL site. pretty much. don't call them commandments when there's exceptions.
What commandment says "we do not reserve the right to punish by discretion"?
There's no commandment that says I can't hack the TL website. Does that mean they can't hold me accountable?
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EPT
