|
Hello, all!
It's become quite apparent that many of you are not reading the first post carefully.
Failure to do so in the future will be met with swift punishment. And as always, remember to be civil.
Thanks,
Empyrean. Time stamp: 03:59 KST. |
On May 09 2011 07:35 huameng wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2011 07:09 GeeseHoward wrote:On May 09 2011 06:53 huameng wrote:On May 09 2011 06:45 GeeseHoward wrote:On May 09 2011 06:40 FuTon wrote:On May 09 2011 06:33 GeeseHoward wrote:
I can provide screen shots of my conversation with Chill. At no point did he ask me to stop or imply he didn't want to receive those messages. I'm going to quote wikipedia on the subject, "It is commonly understood as behaviour intended to disturb or upset, and it is characteristically repetitive. In the legal sense, it is intentional behaviour which is found threatening or disturbing." Thus it's commonly accepted for a action to become harassment, a party has to ask the other party in some form to stop.
I would like to point out section 3 of your ten commandments which states, "... If you believe a certain ban was a mistake, you can contact a Mod through PM or in our IRC channel, but please be respectful about it. Do not take things into your own hands by posting "Ban?" or telling users they will be banned. You PM Moderators to let them know about specific posts or threads, but let them handle it after that."
Two things, everyone that contact Chill about the ban was in the right according to the rules as long as they were being respectful. If they choose to violate the rules that was once again, their action. Not Greg Fields.
Last, the Idra Banned for 90 Days creates a double stander. Where it implied in the rules that such threads should not be create since it seems to be TL staff would prefer to deal with such matters in private.
Thus I humbly request you do not ban Greg "IdrA" Fields for 90 days. Since his tweet did not tell people to harass it clearly states, "wont be streaming for 2 days as i have been banned from tl for insulting cruncher, everyone pm Chill if this upsets you". Which is clearly in the rules that you are allow to, "If you believe a certain ban was a mistake, you can contact a Mod through PM..." I do not see any rule that was broken to increase IdrA's ban to 90 days.
I would also like to request that moderate actions on the Team Liquid forums be base solely on items that happen on the forums. Actions that happen on other outlets should be not be dealt with on the Team Liquid forums.
Thank you. Idra told TL staffs that he did it on purpose. Proof: On May 09 2011 06:15 IntoTheWow wrote:On May 09 2011 06:04 eNtitY~ wrote:
This is a really stupid move, it's not like he told people to mass spam Chill and harass him about why. He just said he was banned and if they had a problem to PM Chill... The staff needs to lighten up a bit here because what he did really shouldn't be that big of a deal. All TL admins are doing is taking away from the community because now no one gets to benefit from the week of analysis he was going to do. Considering ~18k people watch it the first day there was a lot of interest there.
Overboard IMO. TL Staff talked about it with Idra. He said he did it on purpose to annoy Chill. We are not taking anything from you. If Idra doesn't want to stream, it's his own decision. We don't have a power button to switch his computer or stream off. I have read that, but that unrelated to my post. I personally message Chill, because I did not agree with the banned and I followed the rules. It a decision of the individual. Thus if rules were violate and Chill was harass, that is the fault of the individual who made that decision, not Greg "IdrA" Fields. I don't see how it's unrelated, it seems about as related as something could possibly be. His tweet didn't directly tell people to harass, but he meant it to harass, and since Idra did something to have Chill harassed, he is the one who gets punished. Since the PMs weren't harassment, but protesting a ban, which is standard procedure and allowed, the users who sent the PMs were not punished. But Idra, who wanted Chill to be harassed and attempted to make it happen, gets punished. It makes perfect sense to me. It's unrelated cause his intent doesn't control me. It was a clear statement which is clearly allowed in the rules. I'm sorry you don't understand. I clearly have the intent for wanting lower gas prices, but it's outside of my power to do so. Greg can clearly want people to harass Chill but it's out side of his power to make them do so. It was still a individual decision and I strongly do not support moderating actions that happen outside of the forums. It's very close if not online bulling. Idra's actions being outside the forums are irrelevant to this discussion I think. TL taking action on stuff that happens outside the site is a totally different issue. And yes, Idra just wanting chill to be harassed doesn't mean Idra should get banned. But he didn't just want to do so, he took action to make it happen, and this is when it crosses the line between okay and against the rules. Similarly, if you hire an assassin to get someone killed, you will still be in trouble even though you didn't actually murder anyone and it was the assassin's choice to kill.
Don't think that analogy is very good. Someone else made the point that it says right in TL's commandments that it's okay to PM a mod if you think a ban is unjust. IdrA basically told people reading his twitter to PM Chill if they thought his ban was unjust. Unlike hiring an assassin to kill people, which is obviously illegal, asking people to PM a mod if they think your ban is unjust seems to be within the rules, regardless of intent.
|
On May 09 2011 07:34 tamoorazizgheba wrote:
you mean like banning idrA because of what he said on his twitter? do you even know what happened?
He was not banned for what he said on twitter. He was banned for what he intentionally incited against Chill, a TL moderator. If you can't follow this logic then I can't hep you.
|
On May 09 2011 07:24 snarl wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2011 07:20 MonkSEA wrote:On May 09 2011 07:17 snarl wrote:On May 09 2011 07:15 MonkSEA wrote:On May 09 2011 07:12 RoyalCheese wrote:
What people fail to realize is that Cruncher didn't troll/whateveryoucallit via TL and therefore TL staff has no right to take any actions against him. Idra however insulted him via tl forum and got banned. Pretty fair case, imo. (btw yes i am <3 idra) Then Mr. Awesome, why was IdrA banned for 90 days when he trolled someone off of the TL website? Your logic is incorrect and therefore redundant. Did you miss the part where he told his legion of fans to send the mod a pm knowing full well it would result in spam? And did you miss the part where if we're playing this on assumptions then CrunCher should be assumed of stream cheating? Regardless of IdrA saying that, he did not out-right say "Spam Chill and harass him" he said if the ban upset you then don't ask IdrA, ask Chill. Nazgul spoke with idra after the fact, did you not read the op? IF it wasn't idra's intention to get chill spam PM'd he could have apologised and the thing would have blown over. But it clearly was his intent since he said he did not regret his actions. So please stop..you're grasping at straws here.
Reposting the example if you did not see it.
I tell my friends my boss is a douchebag and that i will pay for someone to cut his head off. Someone eventually hears that, does it and asks for my money, so am I to blame if police saw the whole thing?
I saw the lakers game I'm so infuriated with how they played today because I lose $300 on a bet. I'm actually so infuriated that I post on my facebook that they're failures and terrorists should blow their plane up. Their plane crashes and FBI is at my door, am I a terrorist?
I enjoy how people make assumptions and judge in absolutes for some cases or dismiss them entirely, but to prove others we need empirical evidence else they're innocent.
|
Punishment is pretty well deserved.
|
admins are very courteous and formal
it is important just because someone deserves to be banned please don't put insults or bm in the ban reasons, i.e. douchebag,
|
On May 09 2011 07:38 Azarkon wrote:
He was not banned for what he said on twitter. He was banned for what he intentionally incited against Chill, a TL moderator. If you can't follow this logic then I can't hep you.
Is it really against the rules to "incite" against Chill when the nature of the "inciting" merely entails PMing to protest a ban, which seems to be within the rules of TL? Like someone else said, if a mod bans someone and it is within the rules to PM that mod if one thinks the ban is unjust, it is the mod's burden to deal with those PMs, and even if IdrA wanted to annoy Chill, it was ultimately the actual people who PM'd Chill with the intent to troll who are to blame. Like I said earlier, people could have easily PM'd Chill with rational, well-thought out arguments, and it's not IdrA's fault that many people didn't do that.
|
the staff might as well have a refurendum because idra will never change, lol
|
United States15275 Posts
On May 09 2011 07:33 IMABUNNEH wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2011 07:28 drewbie.root wrote:
how is cruncher to blame, all he did was stream cheat in a ladder game.. it's kind of lame but its not a big issue at all, people do that to me all the time and it's just the price you pay for streaming your ladder games. Show nested quote +
You can't ban Cruncher for stream sniping without definite evidence. And the problem is that such evidence can only be showed through several consecutive games. The same applies to maphacking as well.
Rather than ban him for stream cheating (which he said he did initially I believe)... why ont ban him for the OBVIOUS trolling his post contained? Or warn him? Or let him off scot free because one person saying a throwaway pissed off comment is bannable for 2 days, but someone deliberately trolling and trying to rile up another poster is completely acceptable?
No, he said he had the stream open.
Now I haven't actually seen this Cruncher post, but I doubt it's as bad as saying someone is a waste of life. Idra is not a robot and can perfectly handle his emotions in response to trolling (in theory). Also if Cruncher was intentionally baiting Idra in the forums I would be fine with a temp ban for him too.
|
In conclusion, if I did something wrong, and the person I wronged told me to, "grow up you douchebag," I don't think my response would be to grow up. I would get increasingly angry. But the mods don't understand why he won't follow their requests...
|
On May 09 2011 07:38 Asparagus wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2011 07:24 snarl wrote:On May 09 2011 07:20 MonkSEA wrote:On May 09 2011 07:17 snarl wrote:On May 09 2011 07:15 MonkSEA wrote:On May 09 2011 07:12 RoyalCheese wrote:
What people fail to realize is that Cruncher didn't troll/whateveryoucallit via TL and therefore TL staff has no right to take any actions against him. Idra however insulted him via tl forum and got banned. Pretty fair case, imo. (btw yes i am <3 idra) Then Mr. Awesome, why was IdrA banned for 90 days when he trolled someone off of the TL website? Your logic is incorrect and therefore redundant. Did you miss the part where he told his legion of fans to send the mod a pm knowing full well it would result in spam? And did you miss the part where if we're playing this on assumptions then CrunCher should be assumed of stream cheating? Regardless of IdrA saying that, he did not out-right say "Spam Chill and harass him" he said if the ban upset you then don't ask IdrA, ask Chill. Nazgul spoke with idra after the fact, did you not read the op? IF it wasn't idra's intention to get chill spam PM'd he could have apologised and the thing would have blown over. But it clearly was his intent since he said he did not regret his actions. So please stop..you're grasping at straws here. Reposting the example if you did not see it. I tell my friends my boss is a douchebag and that i will pay for someone to cut his head off. Someone eventually hears that, does it and asks for my money, so am I to blame if police saw the whole thing? I saw the lakers game I'm so infuriated with how they played today because I lose $300 on a bet. I'm actually so infuriated that I post on my facebook that they're failures and terrorists should blow their plane up. Their plane crashes and FBI is at my door, am I a terrorist? I enjoy how people make assumptions and judge in absolutes for some cases or dismiss them entirely, but to prove others we need empirical evidence else they're innocent.
If the police saw the whole thing, and you tell them that it was your intention, yes, you're to blame.
If the FBI goes to your house, and you tell them that your intention is to provoke a terrorist attack with your comment, yes, you're to blame and you're a terrorist.
And IdrA did the exact same thing. He assumed that it was his intention, and didn't want to apologize.
|
On May 09 2011 07:35 Mailing wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2011 07:31 Deathmanbob wrote:On May 09 2011 07:26 Mailing wrote:On May 09 2011 07:25 Deindar wrote:
Shit. I've looked for about 100 different ways to try to criticize TL on their handling of this situation of this drama because I'm a rabid IdrA fan, but I really think they handled this maturally. Well done T.T Maturely handling it would be to ban both idra and cruncher. Not banning cruncher because of X Y and Z is just skewing reasons. When looked at objectively they both are to blame. how can you prove he cheated? stream sniping isnt cheating. i saw the game that caused all this and all that happened was cruncher walled off with a forge and double gate way... thats how i open on that map because its safe vs a all in just because someone goes all in and it gets counter by a safe opening does not mean he was cheating at all Look, here. 1. I am not saying he cheated. He sniped (not cheated) and trolls idra, REGULARLY. This is disrespectful to a veteran, against one of the TL commandments. 2. IdrA posted on twitter, which resulted in chill being spammed. HOWEVER YOU WANT TO LOOK AT THIS, THIS IS NOT AGAINST THE TL COMMANDMENT RULES. as idra did NOT post it on TL. I am not using this as justification, idra deserved to be banned regardless for insulting Cruncher. If Chill got mad at people disagreeing with the ban and PMing him about it, that is a burden he has to face as a moderator. 3. Being featured should have rules imposed, like everything else on this website. There are only a few featured, and they are usually the best teams or players. They should have standards. IdrA purely ladders, and only insults people who flame him first. He is quiet and passive on ladder.
In that case, would you say Terran/Princess/Kitty/Brittany/Major also deserves a ban? Stream sniping seems rather common these days with so many well known players streaming all the time.
|
I'm seriously just baffled at anyone's defense of IdrA,
The only coherent thing anyone is saying is 'IdrA should be allowed to be a douche as much as he likes, but Chill can't be'
That doesn't hold a lot of water
|
On May 09 2011 07:29 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2011 07:28 drewbie.root wrote:
how is cruncher to blame, all he did was stream cheat in a ladder game.. it's kind of lame but its not a big issue at all, people do that to me all the time and it's just the price you pay for streaming your ladder games. dude, how can u say that without any proof at all. or even evidence. did u even watch the game ur talking about? god, you realize your name actually has some weight right?
I think he meant to say stream snipe, I hope...
|
On May 09 2011 07:42 Sein wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2011 07:35 Mailing wrote:On May 09 2011 07:31 Deathmanbob wrote:On May 09 2011 07:26 Mailing wrote:On May 09 2011 07:25 Deindar wrote:
Shit. I've looked for about 100 different ways to try to criticize TL on their handling of this situation of this drama because I'm a rabid IdrA fan, but I really think they handled this maturally. Well done T.T Maturely handling it would be to ban both idra and cruncher. Not banning cruncher because of X Y and Z is just skewing reasons. When looked at objectively they both are to blame. how can you prove he cheated? stream sniping isnt cheating. i saw the game that caused all this and all that happened was cruncher walled off with a forge and double gate way... thats how i open on that map because its safe vs a all in just because someone goes all in and it gets counter by a safe opening does not mean he was cheating at all Look, here. 1. I am not saying he cheated. He sniped (not cheated) and trolls idra, REGULARLY. This is disrespectful to a veteran, against one of the TL commandments. 2. IdrA posted on twitter, which resulted in chill being spammed. HOWEVER YOU WANT TO LOOK AT THIS, THIS IS NOT AGAINST THE TL COMMANDMENT RULES. as idra did NOT post it on TL. I am not using this as justification, idra deserved to be banned regardless for insulting Cruncher. If Chill got mad at people disagreeing with the ban and PMing him about it, that is a burden he has to face as a moderator. 3. Being featured should have rules imposed, like everything else on this website. There are only a few featured, and they are usually the best teams or players. They should have standards. IdrA purely ladders, and only insults people who flame him first. He is quiet and passive on ladder. In that case, would you say Terran/Princess/Kitty/Brittany/Major also deserves a ban? Stream sniping is rather common these days with so many well known players streaming all the time.
Don't think it's as much about the sniping as it is the clear intent to troll IdrA.
|
If I was taking a test and took out my book and opened it, even tho i never look at it, I think any teacher will fail you for cheating. common sense.
|
On May 09 2011 07:40 HolyArrow wrote:
Is it really against the rules to "incite" against Chill when the nature of the "inciting" merely entails PMing to protest a ban, which seems to be within the rules of TL? Like someone else said, if a mod bans someone and it is within the rules to PM that mod if one thinks the ban is unjust, it is the mod's burden to deal with those PMs, and even if IdrA wanted to annoy Chill, it was ultimately the actual people who PM'd Chill with the intent to troll who are to blame. Like I said earlier, people could have easily PM'd Chill with rational, well-thought out arguments, and it's not IdrA's fault that many people didn't do that.
1. Idra didn't tell his fans to ask for his unbanning. He told his fans to bitch to Chill about him not streaming for the next two days (which isn't even up to Chill).
2. The TL staff went and talked to Idra afterward to verify what he wanted to happen. He admitted that he wanted to annoy Chill and that he doesn't regret it. This is the reason for the ban.
|
On May 09 2011 07:42 EnderSword wrote:
I'm seriously just baffled at anyone's defense of IdrA,
The only coherent thing anyone is saying is 'IdrA should be allowed to be a douche as much as he likes, but Chill can't be'
That doesn't hold a lot of water
Nah, you're just not taking the time to read and comprehend the points some people are making. Please don't oversimplify/misstate things.
|
On May 09 2011 07:42 Kamikazess wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2011 07:38 Asparagus wrote:On May 09 2011 07:24 snarl wrote:On May 09 2011 07:20 MonkSEA wrote:On May 09 2011 07:17 snarl wrote:On May 09 2011 07:15 MonkSEA wrote:On May 09 2011 07:12 RoyalCheese wrote:
What people fail to realize is that Cruncher didn't troll/whateveryoucallit via TL and therefore TL staff has no right to take any actions against him. Idra however insulted him via tl forum and got banned. Pretty fair case, imo. (btw yes i am <3 idra) Then Mr. Awesome, why was IdrA banned for 90 days when he trolled someone off of the TL website? Your logic is incorrect and therefore redundant. Did you miss the part where he told his legion of fans to send the mod a pm knowing full well it would result in spam? And did you miss the part where if we're playing this on assumptions then CrunCher should be assumed of stream cheating? Regardless of IdrA saying that, he did not out-right say "Spam Chill and harass him" he said if the ban upset you then don't ask IdrA, ask Chill. Nazgul spoke with idra after the fact, did you not read the op? IF it wasn't idra's intention to get chill spam PM'd he could have apologised and the thing would have blown over. But it clearly was his intent since he said he did not regret his actions. So please stop..you're grasping at straws here. Reposting the example if you did not see it. I tell my friends my boss is a douchebag and that i will pay for someone to cut his head off. Someone eventually hears that, does it and asks for my money, so am I to blame if police saw the whole thing? I saw the lakers game I'm so infuriated with how they played today because I lose $300 on a bet. I'm actually so infuriated that I post on my facebook that they're failures and terrorists should blow their plane up. Their plane crashes and FBI is at my door, am I a terrorist? I enjoy how people make assumptions and judge in absolutes for some cases or dismiss them entirely, but to prove others we need empirical evidence else they're innocent. If the police saw the whole thing, and you tell them that it was your intention, yes, you're to blame. If the FBI goes to your house, and you tell them that your intention is to provoke a terrorist attack with your comment, yes, you're to blame and you're a terrorist. And IdrA did the exact same thing. He assumed that it was his intention, and didn't want to apologize.
wow... your post is so wrong on so many levels... i'm a biology major and i know more law than you, how about that.
so if I said it was my intent, and then apologized, i would be let go and the US government would deem me not a terrorist? get out.
|
|
|
On May 09 2011 07:32 tamoorazizgheba wrote:
idrA's just awesome. he's becoming the face of e-sports.
not awesome at all. He's childish and immature and reinforced all the negative stereotypes about nerdraging skinny white guys being the only people losery enough to play games. Somebody a little older and more professional/mature ought to be the image. If only there were an English speaking version of Nestea.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
