EPTThe Behavior Score Conundrum - Page 2
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harodihg
Japan1344 Posts
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BigO
Sweden956 Posts
On October 09 2017 16:25 harodihg wrote: Right, there's no point in me really posting further or explaining what I think should change or even bothering trying to further explain my point about how bad behavior certainly isn't acceptable, but having a system that just increases the amount of it is silly because your mentality if far worse than mine and I'm an F behavior score player, so funny that? It would be fine if you actually came with a good solution to make things better, but at this moment your first 2 post of this thread was basically just whining about the bad teammates you had. Until we get a better solution, this is the best way to keep the worst offenders out of your average dota players games. | ||
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harodihg
Japan1344 Posts
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Aquanim
Australia2849 Posts
On October 09 2017 16:35 harodihg wrote: Showing you what exactly F behavior score is like isn't whining. Stop posting if you're just going to be a cunt. You have not addressed the central point raised in that post and more than once previously: What alternative system do you think would be an improvement? | ||
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harodihg
Japan1344 Posts
I think that the best system would ideally involve having player moderators or some actual oversight to what's going on. If someone is reported enough having a system similar to CSGO's where several players who have good track record's can view what the player is reported for and vote on a consequence. Consequences being things that don't just make people angrier and shittier to one another. Namely things like a time based ban from ranked MM, a time based ban from MM all together, not allowing muted players to play ranked (why is that allowed to begin with?), etc. In association with that having teams balanced around having 1 low behavior score player paired with 4 high behavior score players, and having changed weight to reports based on current behavior score. This would make it so that if a low behavior score player is just reporting someone out of spite there's a smaller chance it actually impacts anything, or if someone who rarely reports people, but when they do it's for good reason can actually see their report having an impact. And again, to go back to actually having human contact in the report system instead of just having it automated. If you read over my initial posts before about how the system actually works at F behavior score you'd see why it's impossibly broken and just a negative feedback loop, instead of just looking for ways to insult me. | ||
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Frogstomp
United States125 Posts
confused as to what this means. is i good boy? solution: make new account, be less toxic crybaby. not off to good start sucks, i know - but you don't seem to be contesting that you've earned - at least in part - your current behavior score? you could also reinvest your time into some different, more positive pursuits. i suggest learning a language, volunteering in your community, or reading a book | ||
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ahswtini
Northern Ireland22208 Posts
On October 09 2017 15:43 harodihg wrote: Just finished another game. ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/wfcET9r.png) Maybe if the system was made to try and change behaviors instead of just creating a cesspool then things would be different. Do you think putting people together who already had poor behavior together, where they're constantly in and out of low priority/mutes/throwing is going to make them one day wake up and see the light and become Positive Mannered Keep It BSJ Players? It's shockingly similar to the US prison system where once you're in, you're just in a constant routine of getting locked up. It's beyond bizarre how none of you see how the system is ridiculous. It's like just because it doesn't affect you, you're suddenly incapable of empathizing or using any critical thinking skills regarding it. only you are stopping you from improving your behaviour score. end of. | ||
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Wineandbread
United States2065 Posts
I understand your frustration with your team but improving behavior score is a constant uphill battle. Another thing is that opendota and such do not capture mic logs or team chat so with regards to communication toxicity it is not the whole picture we can analyze from. I'm not calling you out or anything, it's just not a great piece of evidence. (look at that MK in your first picture, none of that would be evident from opendota chat logs) You say you queue with https://www.opendota.com/players/54307128/overview frequently. Given his opendota matches it is clear he is able to not feed and win games too. Sometimes maybe he has bad days where he snaps like the game you played, but chooses a poor way of letting it out on the people he plays with. You should note that he has 2 games of pure feeding to your 1 in the first 3 pages at a quick glance, and he also doesn't use all chat that often, like you. (to be fair it gets worse in the next few pages) You are right, people with low behavior score are in a negative feedback loop. This does not really help them get out because they are more likely exposed to tilting/rage-inducing situations. The system is not designed for them to get help and climb back to normal behavior games because it is not Valve's job to tweak their in-game personality; it is merely, as people have said, a (imperfect) prison for (some) people that have shown they are capable of ruining games. Thing is, Valve can't realistically do anything about the system. Toxicity is very pronounced in dota, but it is far from the only game that has these concerns. The onus is on those players to change themselves, even in unfavorable conditions. There's only really so many things Valve can do to help: - If Valve prevents toxic accounts from playing, they are losing money because those players may be less inclined to spend money on a game they are being restricted from playing. Alternatively, they create smurf accounts which can potentially ruin new player experience. It's quite often though people that are tilted continue to play games in a fragile state of mind because they don't know how to recognize when to stop. - If Valve does nothing to police toxic behavior, people with better behavior score are punished for trying to play the game normally. Like you and this Emerge person, you are both capable of playing games normally. You are both also capable of tilting, whether from the draft or poor play or whatever some dude says, and lashing out in some form which reduces game quality. Policing is done at a community level and maybe it's not reliable (reporting for low skill lol) because it doesn't paint the whole picture of your behavior in one game. But all that matters is that you made that mistake in that one game. | ||
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harodihg
Japan1344 Posts
I'll go ahead and outright say this: I don't throw or grief games In that game, or any other like that, someone was already throwing or griefing and I was just frustrated and gave up. In that game EmergeExtempore had just followed me around trying to make the game unplayable for me. Again, it may look like he wasn't and isn't feeding in some of his games, but he picks things like enigma just to follow people around and make eidolons out of the camps they're farming etc. It's just a more stealthy way of game ruining. Edit: A few days ago he did this 4 games in a row to me, I tried to play each one. Am I going to get blamed for just giving up and suiciding when someone is doing what he does? Aka not even trying to play and just playing the game to frustrate someone else? | ||
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harodihg
Japan1344 Posts
https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/3484614865 https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/3486325641 https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/3482495549 download the replay and watch what happens. | ||
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4ZakeN87
Sweden1071 Posts
That being said maybe there should be some kind off get out of jail card? To give players a chance to get out of the "shadow pool" under strict conditions? Maybe you could get a match in the "good tier" but you are much more sensitive to reports? Pretty much a trial period where you have to show above average well behaviour for a strech of matches, 25+? I think that could be reasonable. | ||
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ahswtini
Northern Ireland22208 Posts
On October 09 2017 18:29 4ZakeN87 wrote: That being said maybe there should be some kind off get out of jail card? To give players a chance to get out of the "shadow pool" under strict conditions? Maybe you could get a match in the "good tier" but you are much more sensitive to reports? it would have to be uninformed. otherwise it's pointless - the person could just exercise all the self-control they can muster to not flame or feed just for that one game. and one game should not be indicative of someone's behaviour. | ||
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nanaoei
3358 Posts
On October 09 2017 15:43 harodihg wrote: Maybe if the system was made to try and change behaviors instead of just creating a cesspool then things would be different. Do you think putting people together who already had poor behavior together, where they're constantly in and out of low priority/mutes/throwing is going to make them one day wake up and see the light and become Positive Mannered It's beyond bizarre how none of you see how the system is ridiculous. It's like just because it doesn't affect you, you're suddenly incapable of empathizing or using any critical thinking skills regarding it. let's change the tone of the discussion, first of all. it shouldn't be a Q&A with you and you only. it should be an actual discussion but as it is, you're pushing back and people are taking that bait because it is easy to tell you that you're not right. the portion i quoted, "maybe if the system was made to try and change behaviours..." from anecdotal experience the general idea of trying to change someone's behavior doesn't work very often. and so you're asking for a system then, to give more of a chance to people who probably deserve it. i can say that trying my very hardest--and i used to be an extremely nice person--to be accommodating and helpful that there is no such built-in system to reward someone for going out of your way to be a positive influence on the game. in fact, people will spit on you somtimes even though you are trying to do something nice for them in dota. i understand why someone wouldn't make another account in this situation. you have money, stats, memories, MMR, and time invested into it. some people don't play this game purely to have matches, they might feel progression through the changes in their account like MMR. then this issue comes up where you can't have proper games. that makes sense and everyone has experience with that. i don't want to go the league route with the tribunal and whatever sort of censorship and punishment system they got over there. it's boring and controlling. i also don't want to find players quitting because they can't get out of their own pit. so what it comes down to really, is being reasonable, and playing well. reasonable for picks, playing so well that it doesn't make sense to flame you. from that position you can act as person with a little bit of power because people will listen to you for suggestions. same thing with this thread right here. you're being condemned because you're in this point of your life as a dota player. with the system not changing, which is very likely, i will make suggestions to change the situation. you make some really good efforts, people notice you for it, you're playing queue with people who are not as toxic through the friends you make, and automatically i can say the behaviour score will raise. i don't think it is even that gradual, and i am willing to be part of it. any other system would have to be more technical, like freebie/buffer points given for some arbitrary valuation of your improvement. then again, isn't this just another form of MMR in a way? | ||
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Gamble28
Germany107 Posts
If u have constantly dumb teammates that just screaming around and shit just go ahead and mute them all. Do everything to not get tilted and it will be better. Not every person that says: "report that idiot" is actually reporting u. And remember u only have 3 reports a week i guess? | ||
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harodihg
Japan1344 Posts
https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/7585jo/after_7_clean_all_green_summaries_in_a_row_i_am/ inspired by this post | ||
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harodihg
Japan1344 Posts
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nothingmuch
448 Posts
Also I really, really wonder what response you thought you'd get with this thread. "Yeah, I'm an asshole too and the other assholes are really assholes so Valve should have a system that makes me not be an asshole instead of putting me with the other assholes!" ? People have offered a simple solution- make a new account. If you really got into the shadow pool due to bad luck then you'll be fine. If you got into it because you deserve it then how can you complain? | ||
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harodihg
Japan1344 Posts
I don't ruin/throw/or grief games and haven't for about 2 years (though I just started playing again last month) I used to throw games just to intentionally lower my MMR a while ago. I also generally argue back at people and call them mean names when provoked, though for the most part I just stay quiet and keep to my own. Mostly the former I would imagine is why it's so low. I could just go play on a new account and I'm confident that I wouldn't hit F behavior score on it at all, or even have a bad one, but I'd rather not. I'd rather see the game make changes to improve instead of pushing more of the playerbase into quitting when the playerbase is already dwindling and, from what I last checked, is about 500k players down. edit: I took the time to write that post in between games ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/IMVf0Ko.png) :V | ||
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4ZakeN87
Sweden1071 Posts
On October 09 2017 18:46 ahswtini wrote: it would have to be uninformed. otherwise it's pointless - the person could just exercise all the self-control they can muster to not flame or feed just for that one game. and one game should not be indicative of someone's behaviour. Maybe I phrased it weird, but I mean that you should get a chance to play in normal tier at some point. Then you would have to play for a longer time and prove that you can maintain a good behaviour. Something around 20-40 games. I doubt that the worst of the toxic pool could maintain self-control over 40 games unless they actually put serious effort into changing the way they interact with their team/opponent team. I mean usually these people start flaming once the team lose first blood, 40 games that would be an enterinty for them. Hell 40 games might be a long time for me ^^ Cause I agree with the poster that environment he is playing in is almost impossible to get out. Since the people who are the "judges" is toxic people who will tell themselves whatever they need to make them feel better. Personally I would uninstal dota if I would have to play with these people. But I think someway of gettting out is reasonable, as I suspect that it would be hard even for a "nice" player to get out of there. Then if he deserves to be there or not is another matter. | ||
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harodihg
Japan1344 Posts
I get about 9 reports a day. As in I report 3 people, get them back, report 3 more, get them back, etc. Due to the nature of the people in F behavior score, they're constantly being muted, or LPQ, or something to where I'm receiving the reports back because of the successful punishment. Based on this, I imagine they receive the same thing as well, meaning that the most ill behaved people are essentially being doled out more reports than any other player in the system. The people with the worst behavior have the most power as to who gets punished. Think about that. When people who are running down mid, afking, or spamming "nigger" are wondering what to do with their reports, who do you think they'll report and what for? I doubt it matters, they'll just report anyone for whatever reason because they're upset over something. And they're eternally upset because they're forced to play with one another. Even if you don't say a single thing and play support you can wind up being in LPQ or muted from reports because your carry has a meltdown and starts demanding wards despite none being in stock. Then due to how many reports everyone gets down there they'll just use one on you, then someone else might as well, etc. It's just a vicious cycle. Update: just found a game, took 39 minutes. | ||
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