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For the uninitiated, DotA has always been plagued with game throwers and griefers, ever since the days of having to sift through -APEM games hosted on bots using banlists. To lay things out for you, let me paint a picture of how the current system works.
+ Show Spoiler +Players are allotted 3 reports per week, however they receive back a report if someone that they reported previously has action taken against them (aka receives low priority or a mute). https://dota2.gamepedia.com/ReportValve also has a system in place to help players gauge how often they are being reported or commended throughout their games. http://www.dota2.com/conductsummaryfaq/And on paper, this system seems nice, however when actually implemented, along with a few other changes, it effectively makes their game unplayable for some people. Some people had speculated for years about Valve having a hidden system in place, coined the "shadow pool", to place disruptive players together on a team, now Valve has officially announced it's existence. http://www.dota2.com/news/updates/33258/"- Adjusted the weight given to behavior metrics to be more focused on a very small percentage of players that were the most offensive players, rather than the general population."
I know that at this point, many of you are probably going to just scoff and want to reply "well, if your behavior score is that low you deserve it!" but I hope that you will continue reading and fully understand the full picture that I am trying to portray here by the end, and the best way to do this might just be to show you what my games are like. I have a behavior score of F.
+ Show Spoiler +I am currently about 4.5k~ MMR. Before these changes my average queue time would take about 3-5 minutes during peak hours, and 5-7 during the early morning or very late night. The average MMR spread would normally be within a few hundred of the average, so maybe 300-500 variance. After these changes, my average queue is about 8-10 minutes during peak hours, and 10-20 minutes during off hours. In just the last few days, the longest queue that I've had has been 25 minutes. I took a picture of a random queue at 19 because I was flabbergasted. ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/W2NTvri.png) Also note, I said average being 10-20. At the BARE MINIMUM queuing any time after midnight, it takes me at least 10 minutes to find a game now. Also the MMR spreads have been nothing short of ridiculous. The largest spread I've seen so far has had a 3200 player and a 5500 player on my team at once. And while I can't personally give you a strict measurement of exactly how much the MMR spreads have changed, I can attest to them being outright farther apart, and most games there will be at LEAST 500-1000 difference between any two players on my team. ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/Pp8D1Dh.png) And for having only 4500~ MMR, I think that this is ridiculous, considering historically I've never experienced these kinds of things, and still today other players with similar MMRs but normal behavior scores don't. And going beyond that, I wind up with the exact same players on my team, or similar faces just about every single game. And this isn't something I'm happy to say. For instance, this Money King? ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/hgz1uy1.png) I get him on my team extremely regularly. He will throw games before they've even started. Like this one. Where he just afks as riki. He starts out following me around. ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/2MM2e1i.jpg) But as he starts almost dying from timber trying to harass he decides to just afk on the side. Notice the different time changes at the top. ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/F308czP.jpg) This is just one of MANY examples of these types of people who are all but guaranteed to be on my team now if I queue at the same time as them. Another repeat offender, who threw FOUR games in a row of mine last week is EmergeExtempore ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/SzUueqN.jpg) He spent the game following me around imprisoning creeps I was trying to kill. Neither of those, or many other players like them are ever on the enemy team, yet I've played 10+ matches with both of them in just this week alone.
Putting it all together
What Valve has created can ultimately be summed up as a negative feedback loop.
-Low behavior score players are grouped together despite varying differences in MMR and MMR spreads are now more varied so that they can be put together on the same team
-Due to how the report system works, low behavior score players are often just reporting each other, getting each other muted/low priority and will always wind up with more reports due to receiving them back once action is taken.
-This just makes the game essentially unplayable at this behavior score due to just about every game being ruined.
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Just to further bring my point home, I've lost 4 out of my last 6 matches. I'll show you what happened in those 4.
1) I wound up queuing into EmergeExtempore and Jacques again. They called each other "nigger" the entire game and EmergeExtempore didn't buy any starting items.
+ Show Spoiler +
2) mid or afk did not get mid, so he afked. Our storm got mad after dying twice to Ursa that he bought an iron talon and jungled.
+ Show Spoiler +
3) mid or afk was again not given mid, so he dual laned mid with SF.
+ Show Spoiler +
After a while, AM was done with the game. He blinked mid, dropped his items, and abandoned.
+ Show Spoiler +
4) After fighting over the offlane with pugna, and both of them dying a lot. Necro decided to live out his life in the shadow realm with his trusty shadow amulet.
+ Show Spoiler +
Those were 4 of my last 6 games, just as a sample. And no, this wasn't some unlucky streak. This about sums up my matchmaking experience.
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So, the title of this post is "The Behavior Score Conundrum." Can you explain the conundrum part? It looks like you've just described the system working as designed - if you behave in such a way as to get a low behavior score, you get grouped with other people with low behavior scores; you are therefore more likely to encounter assholes. To avoid this, don't behave in such a way as to receive a low behavior score.
I'm willing to believe there are problems with some people having low behavior scores who don't deserve to - e.g., people getting reported because their team blames them for a loss, or got grouped with a 4-stack who mass-reported them. I hope that Valve does their best to tune their algorithm to avoid this as much as possible, but I would certainly believe it's not perfect. You may even be one of these blameless folks who have been unluckily screwed by the behavior score algorithm, in which case, my condolences!
But this post doesn't address, or even bring up, any of those issues, or suggest solutions to them - it just points out that if the game thinks you're a game-ruiner, it puts you with other game-ruiners, and many of your games are therefore ruined (in the process, making you less likely to ruin the games of non-game-ruiners). That's, uh...the whole point, isn't it?
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On October 09 2017 14:42 ASoo wrote:
But this post doesn't address, or even bring up, any of those issues, or suggest solutions to them - it just points out that if the game thinks you're a game-ruiner, it puts you with other game-ruiners, and many of your games are therefore ruined (in the process, making you less likely to ruin the games of non-game-ruiners). That's, uh...the whole point, isn't it?
The point of my post wasn't to suggest a solution, you've missed the point entirely I'm afraid.
Also, "(in the process, making you less likely to ruin the games of non-game-ruiners)." in my experience, I've found this to be the EXACT opposite. After playing one game where someone ruins it, the other people that I'm playing with are more likely to just do the same. Bad behavior begets bad behavior.
Ranked matchmaking is entirely just unplayable for me. Most people that I know claim to have this happen, at most, 1/20 of their games, and even then it will happen equally to the other team.
About HALF of my games I have someone doing these things. You can sit here and say "lol it's working as intended" but is it?
Shouldn't Valve's goal be having everyone enjoy the game and not have any games being ruined?
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But this post doesn't address, or even bring up, any of those issues, or suggest solutions to them - it just points out that if the game thinks you're a game-ruiner, it puts you with other game-ruiners, and many of your games are therefore ruined (in the process, making you less likely to ruin the games of non-game-ruiners). That's, uh...the whole point, isn't it?
Totally agree. This is what these people deserve. If you don't like it, make another account and don't be a toxic game-ruiner anymore.
I'm willing to believe there are problems with some people having low behavior scores who don't deserve to - e.g., people getting reported because their team blames them for a loss, or got grouped with a 4-stack who mass-reported them.
Multiple reports from the same party only count once, and while everyone will certainly get undeserved reports once in a while, I find it very hard to believe that someone could make it all the way down to an F just from this. Back when behavior score was visible, I never dipped below 8000 (maximum is 10000), and that was during a week when my internet was spotty and made me abandon two ranked games. Besides this, it was pretty much always 9500 or higher.
Even on my smurf account that I play on when I'm intoxicated or just don't feel like trying that hard, I never went below like 7000.
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"This is how it should be and these people deserve this"
that's the worst kind of mentality to go about this, that's the kind of bizarre reddit-esque mindset that's killing the game
you're not looking for a solution, you're just actively trying to push people out of the game
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On October 09 2017 14:56 harodihg wrote:
"This is how it should be and these people deserve this"
that's the worst kind of mentality to go about this, that's the kind of bizarre reddit-esque mindset that's killing the game
you're not looking for a solution, you're just actively trying to push people out of the game
Frankly, I wouldn't mind if all these people were pushed out of the game, but at least they now only get to ruin each other's games instead of the normal population's games.
What kind of solution do you propose? Where should these people go if you don't like the current system of matching them with each other?
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On October 09 2017 14:56 harodihg wrote:
"This is how it should be and these people deserve this"
that's the worst kind of mentality to go about this, that's the kind of bizarre reddit-esque mindset that's killing the game
you're not looking for a solution, you're just actively trying to push people out of the game
This is the solution. I don't know why you are still going on about this. Dota is infamous (or well, MOBAs in general) for having toxic communities, this is a solution to make sure that non-toxic people don't have to deal with the worst offenders.
It's like in real life. If you do stupid shit and break the law, you get sent to prison. Cut off from the law abiding citizens that make up the rest of society.
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Just finished another game.
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/wfcET9r.png)
Maybe if the system was made to try and change behaviors instead of just creating a cesspool then things would be different. Do you think putting people together who already had poor behavior together, where they're constantly in and out of low priority/mutes/throwing is going to make them one day wake up and see the light and become Positive Mannered Keep It BSJ Players?
It's shockingly similar to the US prison system where once you're in, you're just in a constant routine of getting locked up.
It's beyond bizarre how none of you see how the system is ridiculous.
It's like just because it doesn't affect you, you're suddenly incapable of empathizing or using any critical thinking skills regarding it.
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On October 09 2017 14:53 harodihg wrote:
Shouldn't Valve's goal be having everyone enjoy the game and not have any games being ruined?
Do you think there is a way to achieve this?
If there is, then no doubt that would indeed be the best possible outcome. But if there's not, then I consider throwing all the game-ruiners in a box where they can only ruin each other's games preferable to letting them out where they can ruin everyone's games.
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It sounds like you're just asking for a free pass to behave however you want while still getting cooperative, non-toxic teammates. How many games did you ruin yourself? Why didn't you post any screenshots or examples of the things you said and did to get reported down to the shadow pool?
You did this yourself to many other players but now you're upset because you don't like it when other people do it back to you? Boohoo. My "thoughts and prayers" go out to you.
If you've really decided to change your attitude and behavior, then
make another account and don't be a toxic game-ruiner anymore.
Otherwise, you are where you belong.
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Go scrounge my game history or whatever you want to do, but just to keep things clear here. You're the one attacking me now and insulting me.
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Dude enough with your self pity. You have already filled up the QQ Thread with your nonsense. People already disagreed with you there. People will still have the same opinions here as well I am sure.You get what you earn. And you earned yourself a low behavior score, probably because you are an asshole. Yes, you can get it back up by not being an asshole. This is probably too much for you to handle though because your team is constantly griefing and trolling. It really isn't that hard not to get reports. Just stop talking on voice coms and telling people what to do after they disagree with your first comment. And yes, I do believe that anyone with low behavior scores should also be put into games with similar assholes. It is only fair. Why should a well-behaved person get placed with intentional feeders?
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You could actually really easily use opendota to view the allchat to see what I say in games, or even just go over my game history to see how I act and what I do in games. Instead you're going to insult me in a thread where I'm trying to express my concerns.
Baffling.
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On October 09 2017 15:43 harodihg wrote:
Maybe if the system was made to try and change behaviors instead of just creating a cesspool then things would be different. Do you think putting people together who already had poor behavior together, where they're constantly in and out of low priority/mutes/throwing is going to make them one day wake up and see the light and become Positive Mannered Keep It BSJ Players?
What would be an example of a system made to try and change behaviors? What strategies do you think would accomplish this, besides the existing one (disincentive bad behavior by making it have undesirable consequences, like getting stuck in shitty games full of assholes)?
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On October 09 2017 15:49 ASoo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2017 15:43 harodihg wrote:
Maybe if the system was made to try and change behaviors instead of just creating a cesspool then things would be different. Do you think putting people together who already had poor behavior together, where they're constantly in and out of low priority/mutes/throwing is going to make them one day wake up and see the light and become Positive Mannered Keep It BSJ Players? What would be an example of a system made to try and change behaviors? What strategies do you think would accomplish this, besides the existing one (disincentive bad behavior by making it have undesirable consequences, like getting stuck in shitty games full of assholes)?
You can't argue with this guy. His mind is set and his opinion will not change. He will never take the blame for his own actions. He is probably the guy at the end of the game blaming mid or support or carry, its never HIS fault.
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On October 09 2017 15:48 harodihg wrote:
You could actually really easily use opendota to view the allchat to see what I say in games, or even just go over my game history to see how I act and what I do in games. Instead you're going to insult me in a thread where I'm trying to express my concerns.
Baffling.
Are you saying that you did nothing wrong? You were just really, really unlucky and got reported all the way down to the shadow pool from random noise reports?
Besides that, you've proposed no solutions yourself. If the current system is so bad, how do you suggest fixing it?
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I'm not saying that I've never done anything wrong, but is it not the least bit ironic that I'm the one being attacked and insulted in this thread given the topic? lol.
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On October 09 2017 15:55 harodihg wrote:
I'm not saying that I've never done anything wrong, but is it not the least bit ironic that I'm the one being attacked and insulted in this thread given the topic? lol.
I mean, you literally predicted that it would happen in the first post. You can't be surprised that when you make a post complaining about the game treating you as an asshole, and then admit to having, in fact, been an asshole, somebody is probably going to call you an asshole.
I'm trying to give this post the benefit of the doubt here; the OP looks pretty high-effort, and it seems like you're sure you have something to say here, some suggestion for how to fix this. But it seems like your complaint is basically just, "I behaved badly, and the game responded to this (as it was designed to) by putting me in games with other people who also behaved badly, and it turns out that these people are not fun to play with."
Is there, like, more to what you're saying than that? If so, what? What should the game do with game-ruiners, besides lock them away so they can't ruin anyone else's game? Should it ignore their behavior and let them run free? Should it ban them? Should it email them links to free therapy sessions? I'm struggling to see what you think would be better than the system you're railing against.
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On October 09 2017 15:55 harodihg wrote:
I'm not saying that I've never done anything wrong, but is it not the least bit ironic that I'm the one being attacked and insulted in this thread given the topic? lol.
Honestly, can we just stop this "discussion"?
This whole system is built on the idea that you yourself is one day gonna realise that you don't want to play shitty games with people with toxic behaviour. And when you realise that you really, REALLY can't take it anymore, you either quit Dota, or adjust and become a less toxic presence in your games. Either way it gets rid of alot of toxicity for your average dota player. The solution is fine. Unless you got a better one, this is not going anywhere.
This system is the way it is, not to punish you, but to save the rest of us from your behaviour.
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