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On October 10 2017 05:14 harodihg wrote:Good point sertas, I don't know what kind of fix can be made for that. As a sidenote I would like to point out how it's possible for this system to exist in ranked ad infinitum without them dropping MMR. After some searching, I found out that EmergeExtempore has two alt accounts, one with 5k MMR labeled on it whereas his main was sitting comfortably at 4.3k. My theory on this, is that by throwing a good portion of their games they're essentially tanking their MMR lower than what their skill actually is, thus effectively ruining the competition or spirit of the game even when they're not ruining games because the other team essentially stands less of a chance of winning due to their tanked MMRs. @FFGenerations I don't know exactly, but I am trying to do so myself and am working on a log of my progress here http://www.liquiddota.com/blogs/527523-journey-to-good-boy-valhalla
find out how many points one gets for abandoning once, then twice (if any)! it'd be fun to know if i lost like 2000 points by an accident (power cuts), and how fast it takes to gain it back.
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
u lose 1000 behaviour score for an abandon
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Behavior score isn't calculated by points anymore, it's letter grades from A+ down to F
and there's a "normal" in there somewhere too
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United States16280 Posts
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I suppose it would be nice to give F players a game with normal people every 10 games or something (for the ones that are getting less reports than most in the toxic pool), and gauge how they're doing, to give them an opportunity to claw out of there.
From having been an active member on TL for a long time, harodihg, I've known you as nothing but a troll (but a skilled player), so personally I think the system is working very effectively if you're anything like you were 1-2 years ago.
I can definitely see some people seeing it as strict, because people look at it like, well I'm good most of the time, say 95% of the time. But what you have to keep in mind is that if everyone did this, then 50% of the games would be useless. So when you said you were throwing games, I dunno how many, let's assume 100, if everyone did that, that'd be 1000 games... Which would mean more games than all the ones I've played in my life have been ruined. I have very little sympathy. Dota is so dependent on how friendly your team is to be having fun, people who mess up more than a rare Internet going down or a short impulsive fit or rage every dozen games are not ones who I'd want to play with. This seems the way that Valve is going, if this number is small (say 5-10%), they're more than happy to have them stop playing the game if it means the rest will be marginally happier. Quality of games has definitely been going up with time.
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hey fiwi, long time no see. crazy that we used to play sc2 over 6 years ago together and now here we are still
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Suppose you weren't in the shadow pool. Would you want in your team those two players that you complained about on your original post? Would you write this post if they were ruining each other's games but not your games?
I believe the system is working as intended. It is an extension of the Low Priority system, where (presumably) toxic players would go to Low Priority and couldn't play with (presumably) non-toxic, non-low-prio players, but instead played solely with (presumably) toxic, low-prio players.
I do not think this system is the best, even if it greatly benefits me. But I wouldn't argue that this is not how Valve intended it to work.
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You guys are being way too emotional and vitriolic about this. You're hijacking the thread to attack OP instead of giving any actual chance to the hypothesis that the system might be flawed. From what I gather it's pretty clear the system is abused all the time: a player that's in the wrong MMR because he's rusty (think 3 months without playing) will do bad in games and get a lot of reports and have a lower behavior score even what he did was just play bad DotA which shouldn't be punished. I'm high behavior score myself and I rarely have to deal with any game ruiners but I can still see the system's pretty flawed right now and not healthy for the game. I speak from experience when I say you'll get a lot of reports for doing bad in games, I doubt I'm the only one.
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i think hes right, my queus now are 10+ minutes long, i had a 25 minute queu also on the weekend.
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On October 10 2017 11:04 Alpino wrote:
You guys are being way too emotional and vitriolic about this. You're hijacking the thread to attack OP instead of giving any actual chance to the hypothesis that the system might be flawed. From what I gather it's pretty clear the system is abused all the time: a player that's in the wrong MMR because he's rusty (think 3 months without playing) will do bad in games and get a lot of reports and have a lower behavior score even what he did was just play bad DotA which shouldn't be punished. I'm high behavior score myself and I rarely have to deal with any game ruiners but I can still see the system's pretty flawed right now and not healthy for the game. I speak from experience when I say you'll get a lot of reports for doing bad in games, I doubt I'm the only one.
I've gotten a ton of reports from both enemies and allies in consecutive games for flaming and feeding couriers, but I've only been placed in low prio once in all of the past 3 years and that was right after abandoning a couple of games in a row. I'd say that to get there you actually need to be consistently toxic, and not just by being bad at the game. A 4 party stack reporting you isn't worth as much as being reported by 4 different individuals in 4 separate games, so that's not an excuse either. I'd say that this guy definitely deserved it. Most of the people that landed there would try pretty hard to win and get out of low prio, and they'll usually rope in some of their buddies to queue together for easy games.
In fact when I got in there during TI season, those games were the most profitable in terms of wagering. Just try hard, mute everyone if you need to, and communicate using alt+click only. You got to remember that you'll run into game ruining assholes all the time, and it's all about how you react rather than the shit that's happening to you.
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@ kblueriver Even if I wasn't low behavior score I would have made this thread anyway because I care about dota and I think that this is a contributing factor to its dwindling player base
@Oktyabr in the last few months I've received low priority just once, but I often view the games of people I play with who are fellow low behavior score players and they are often in and out of low priority. I just got done playing with a guy called "KrazyKikeKiller" who had pages of low priority, followed by 2-3 ranked games, then more low priority, then rinse and repeat
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In my experience there are people who flame the shit out of everyone but dont give up and still play. Then there are people who who usually say a few bad words but ruin the game on purpose by either going afk, destroy their items, feed on purpose etc. Imo people who flame but still try their best should not be grouped with people who destroy items or ruin games on purpose. I dont give a shit if people flame, there is a mute button for that and I can easily deal with them, but I absolutely loathe people who give up and ruin the game and there's absolutely nothing I can do against that. So in my view receiving a the behavioral score shouldn't be a single value but we need 2: one for those who flame but still play to win and another for game ruiners.
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I think it's fair to say there's a part that's working well and a part that's not.
As people have been pointing out it's working as intended with how these people are being grouped up and separated from the queue. So great.
The problem is there's no rehabilitation mechanism nor is there a path for people to change their behavior then pull themselves up since they're stuck in a pool that's more likely to be toxic, and game ruining.
Then on top of that is another problem where people just like never bottom out. Some of these people seem really irredeemable but they get to flitter around the low behavior score pool with people who are more run of the mill toxic.
So just a thought, the lower your priority (behavior score) the less you can report. This seems like it could at least solve one part of the problem of the circular report structure it also seems like it might be able to help someone get out as those who have a higher behavior score will be determining the reports (People with high behavior scores probably are more level headed and thus making better reporting decisions)
The problem with this, and similar suggestions, is you remove the correcting factor for consistently toxic players. So you go back to the pre-behavior score system where people would get reported a bunch, bounce to low priority, come back and ruin more games for people. The system as is now, has some correction so toxic players who are still toxic stay in the toxic pool and don't infect the general population as much. The problem just becomes that the serial toxic players are a little *too* stuck in their pool even if they reform.
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Yeah, in some ways the current system certainly does work (maybe it's better to say that for some it works as opposed to in some ways) but in others it certainly fails.
When I offered up my ideas I wasn't trying to proclaim them flawless or "needs-to-be-done", just dropping a few ideas for things, that when refined and properly implemented, might help solve what I deem a problem.
I also find the Reddit threads on this stuff funny too
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so correct me if im wrong but how the current system works is that you get matched with players with similiar behavior score - similiar to how people get matched with other people with similiar mmr - and that getting reported despite not doing anything wrong will just decrease your behavior score?
in that case you could be playing normally, not flaming anyone and just playing your own game, and get matched with 4 toxic teammates that just report you for not doing what they expect of you or just for the fun of it, and you get lower behavior score because of that.
Which in turn makes the quality of the concurrent games you play worse and in the long run ruin your chances of actually having a decent game with no griefers
Also coupled with how people are also matched with similiar mmr causes the game to take way longer to match than usual (singsing just took 25 minutes to find a game, presumably because of how the new system works)
which in my humble opinion is a pretty big problem, as if the playerbase isnt at its lowest already for 3+ years.
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Correct Neozxa.
Also, as said in my previous post but to bring it back up - in 2011/2012 it would take probably 3-5 minutes to find a game at any hour.
Now, it takes at LEAST 7 minutes (I haven't had a queue less than 7 since the patch) to find a game even during peak hours. I am not high mmr (4.5k) so it's not like it takes a while to find similarly skilled players. The longest queue time I've had has been 39 minutes.
It almost seems like the way Valve's system works is that it won't let anyone with a behavior score below a certain threshold (maybe D? Since C is normal) get paired on the same team with anyone with a normal score. Behavior seems to outweigh mmr in terms of pairings because I've had over 2k mmr discrepancies in my games (5.5k and 3.2k on my team) which I think is outright absurd
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Any time someone post a topic like this anywhere, people will attack the OP personally just to boost their own epeen.
Anyone with a brain will realise the reporting system have false positives and many other flaws in matchmaking. Valve only cares about their high profits low workers ratio philosophy without caring about the game's long term survival. Only Valve will use a fully automated system to punish toxic behaviors without manually confirming it lol.
If you are not having fun, just quit. Remember why you are playing games in the first place. Maybe Valve will do something drastic when the player population drops even more, but I doubt they will do anything much. They only care about making money through hats in the short term using esports as an avenue to sell them. I don't know if they have anything concrete planned for the long term at all. Cosmetics market is getting more saturated (hence the glance value meme), Valve's current way to deal with it is releasing even less hats and making them more exclusive and expensive in yearly compendiums.
Well one good thing is dota is an extremely solid game for esports, so it will survive a long time in esports. You can still enjoy watching it just like broodwar even when it becomes shit to play.
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I just want to say this isn’t a problem unique to dota. All team based games across the board are experiencing this influx of unchecked negative behavior, from Dota 2 to overwatch. It is a problem with public match making, where a new game is just a click away and accounts for the truly committed to are pretty disposable. Valves system is the classic, hands off let the computers deal with it system. And those can and will be gamed. This problem will likely never be solved by software, not matter how hard Valve and other companies try.
The problem right now is we have zero control over who we play with. If can can’t stack with friends, you are at the mercy of public match making. We can’t tell Valve not to match us with a player again. We can’t auto mute people who use specific words. We can’t mute people with a specific reputation. We don’t get to pick if we want to play with people who want to fill a specific role. So the only options are to deal with whatever assholes are playing valve’s game or play something else. If people are cool with that, great. But lets not act like it isn’t a shitty situation that other pick up games in real life do not have.
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Honestly a slight adjustment to the behavior score metric will fix every problem OP stated in this thread, and fix match finding times in the process.
I honestly think a more transparent system is better for making players realize their mistake and to let people know if they are not very fun to play with instead of a hidden "behavior score" metric that can only be accessed by people who did their research on the subject. Low priority accomplishes this to an extent but I feel that just winning x amount of games doesnt really force them to change how they act.
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Dota toxicity is one of the worst among all team games because of
1. Game is F2P and players can create new accounts easily to troll, smurf, reset whatever penalties their main account has.
2. There are no bans on bad behavior because their punishment is a fully automated one and they can't risk having false positives.
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EPT
