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For the uninitiated, DotA has always been plagued with game throwers and griefers, ever since the days of having to sift through -APEM games hosted on bots using banlists. To lay things out for you, let me paint a picture of how the current system works.
+ Show Spoiler +Players are allotted 3 reports per week, however they receive back a report if someone that they reported previously has action taken against them (aka receives low priority or a mute). https://dota2.gamepedia.com/ReportValve also has a system in place to help players gauge how often they are being reported or commended throughout their games. http://www.dota2.com/conductsummaryfaq/And on paper, this system seems nice, however when actually implemented, along with a few other changes, it effectively makes their game unplayable for some people. Some people had speculated for years about Valve having a hidden system in place, coined the "shadow pool", to place disruptive players together on a team, now Valve has officially announced it's existence. http://www.dota2.com/news/updates/33258/"- Adjusted the weight given to behavior metrics to be more focused on a very small percentage of players that were the most offensive players, rather than the general population."
I know that at this point, many of you are probably going to just scoff and want to reply "well, if your behavior score is that low you deserve it!" but I hope that you will continue reading and fully understand the full picture that I am trying to portray here by the end, and the best way to do this might just be to show you what my games are like. I have a behavior score of F.
+ Show Spoiler +I am currently about 4.5k~ MMR. Before these changes my average queue time would take about 3-5 minutes during peak hours, and 5-7 during the early morning or very late night. The average MMR spread would normally be within a few hundred of the average, so maybe 300-500 variance. After these changes, my average queue is about 8-10 minutes during peak hours, and 10-20 minutes during off hours. In just the last few days, the longest queue that I've had has been 25 minutes. I took a picture of a random queue at 19 because I was flabbergasted. ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/W2NTvri.png) Also note, I said average being 10-20. At the BARE MINIMUM queuing any time after midnight, it takes me at least 10 minutes to find a game now. Also the MMR spreads have been nothing short of ridiculous. The largest spread I've seen so far has had a 3200 player and a 5500 player on my team at once. And while I can't personally give you a strict measurement of exactly how much the MMR spreads have changed, I can attest to them being outright farther apart, and most games there will be at LEAST 500-1000 difference between any two players on my team. ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/Pp8D1Dh.png) And for having only 4500~ MMR, I think that this is ridiculous, considering historically I've never experienced these kinds of things, and still today other players with similar MMRs but normal behavior scores don't. And going beyond that, I wind up with the exact same players on my team, or similar faces just about every single game. And this isn't something I'm happy to say. For instance, this Money King? ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/hgz1uy1.png) I get him on my team extremely regularly. He will throw games before they've even started. Like this one. Where he just afks as riki. He starts out following me around. ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/2MM2e1i.jpg) But as he starts almost dying from timber trying to harass he decides to just afk on the side. Notice the different time changes at the top. ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/F308czP.jpg) This is just one of MANY examples of these types of people who are all but guaranteed to be on my team now if I queue at the same time as them. Another repeat offender, who threw FOUR games in a row of mine last week is EmergeExtempore ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/SzUueqN.jpg) He spent the game following me around imprisoning creeps I was trying to kill. Neither of those, or many other players like them are ever on the enemy team, yet I've played 10+ matches with both of them in just this week alone.
Putting it all together
What Valve has created can ultimately be summed up as a negative feedback loop.
-Low behavior score players are grouped together despite varying differences in MMR and MMR spreads are now more varied so that they can be put together on the same team
-Due to how the report system works, low behavior score players are often just reporting each other, getting each other muted/low priority and will always wind up with more reports due to receiving them back once action is taken.
-This just makes the game essentially unplayable at this behavior score due to just about every game being ruined.
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Just to further bring my point home, I've lost 4 out of my last 6 matches. I'll show you what happened in those 4.
1) I wound up queuing into EmergeExtempore and Jacques again. They called each other "nigger" the entire game and EmergeExtempore didn't buy any starting items.
+ Show Spoiler +
2) mid or afk did not get mid, so he afked. Our storm got mad after dying twice to Ursa that he bought an iron talon and jungled.
+ Show Spoiler +
3) mid or afk was again not given mid, so he dual laned mid with SF.
+ Show Spoiler +
After a while, AM was done with the game. He blinked mid, dropped his items, and abandoned.
+ Show Spoiler +
4) After fighting over the offlane with pugna, and both of them dying a lot. Necro decided to live out his life in the shadow realm with his trusty shadow amulet.
+ Show Spoiler +
Those were 4 of my last 6 games, just as a sample. And no, this wasn't some unlucky streak. This about sums up my matchmaking experience.
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So, the title of this post is "The Behavior Score Conundrum." Can you explain the conundrum part? It looks like you've just described the system working as designed - if you behave in such a way as to get a low behavior score, you get grouped with other people with low behavior scores; you are therefore more likely to encounter assholes. To avoid this, don't behave in such a way as to receive a low behavior score.
I'm willing to believe there are problems with some people having low behavior scores who don't deserve to - e.g., people getting reported because their team blames them for a loss, or got grouped with a 4-stack who mass-reported them. I hope that Valve does their best to tune their algorithm to avoid this as much as possible, but I would certainly believe it's not perfect. You may even be one of these blameless folks who have been unluckily screwed by the behavior score algorithm, in which case, my condolences!
But this post doesn't address, or even bring up, any of those issues, or suggest solutions to them - it just points out that if the game thinks you're a game-ruiner, it puts you with other game-ruiners, and many of your games are therefore ruined (in the process, making you less likely to ruin the games of non-game-ruiners). That's, uh...the whole point, isn't it?
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On October 09 2017 14:42 ASoo wrote:
But this post doesn't address, or even bring up, any of those issues, or suggest solutions to them - it just points out that if the game thinks you're a game-ruiner, it puts you with other game-ruiners, and many of your games are therefore ruined (in the process, making you less likely to ruin the games of non-game-ruiners). That's, uh...the whole point, isn't it?
The point of my post wasn't to suggest a solution, you've missed the point entirely I'm afraid.
Also, "(in the process, making you less likely to ruin the games of non-game-ruiners)." in my experience, I've found this to be the EXACT opposite. After playing one game where someone ruins it, the other people that I'm playing with are more likely to just do the same. Bad behavior begets bad behavior.
Ranked matchmaking is entirely just unplayable for me. Most people that I know claim to have this happen, at most, 1/20 of their games, and even then it will happen equally to the other team.
About HALF of my games I have someone doing these things. You can sit here and say "lol it's working as intended" but is it?
Shouldn't Valve's goal be having everyone enjoy the game and not have any games being ruined?
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But this post doesn't address, or even bring up, any of those issues, or suggest solutions to them - it just points out that if the game thinks you're a game-ruiner, it puts you with other game-ruiners, and many of your games are therefore ruined (in the process, making you less likely to ruin the games of non-game-ruiners). That's, uh...the whole point, isn't it?
Totally agree. This is what these people deserve. If you don't like it, make another account and don't be a toxic game-ruiner anymore.
I'm willing to believe there are problems with some people having low behavior scores who don't deserve to - e.g., people getting reported because their team blames them for a loss, or got grouped with a 4-stack who mass-reported them.
Multiple reports from the same party only count once, and while everyone will certainly get undeserved reports once in a while, I find it very hard to believe that someone could make it all the way down to an F just from this. Back when behavior score was visible, I never dipped below 8000 (maximum is 10000), and that was during a week when my internet was spotty and made me abandon two ranked games. Besides this, it was pretty much always 9500 or higher.
Even on my smurf account that I play on when I'm intoxicated or just don't feel like trying that hard, I never went below like 7000.
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"This is how it should be and these people deserve this"
that's the worst kind of mentality to go about this, that's the kind of bizarre reddit-esque mindset that's killing the game
you're not looking for a solution, you're just actively trying to push people out of the game
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On October 09 2017 14:56 harodihg wrote:
"This is how it should be and these people deserve this"
that's the worst kind of mentality to go about this, that's the kind of bizarre reddit-esque mindset that's killing the game
you're not looking for a solution, you're just actively trying to push people out of the game
Frankly, I wouldn't mind if all these people were pushed out of the game, but at least they now only get to ruin each other's games instead of the normal population's games.
What kind of solution do you propose? Where should these people go if you don't like the current system of matching them with each other?
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On October 09 2017 14:56 harodihg wrote:
"This is how it should be and these people deserve this"
that's the worst kind of mentality to go about this, that's the kind of bizarre reddit-esque mindset that's killing the game
you're not looking for a solution, you're just actively trying to push people out of the game
This is the solution. I don't know why you are still going on about this. Dota is infamous (or well, MOBAs in general) for having toxic communities, this is a solution to make sure that non-toxic people don't have to deal with the worst offenders.
It's like in real life. If you do stupid shit and break the law, you get sent to prison. Cut off from the law abiding citizens that make up the rest of society.
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Just finished another game.
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/wfcET9r.png)
Maybe if the system was made to try and change behaviors instead of just creating a cesspool then things would be different. Do you think putting people together who already had poor behavior together, where they're constantly in and out of low priority/mutes/throwing is going to make them one day wake up and see the light and become Positive Mannered Keep It BSJ Players?
It's shockingly similar to the US prison system where once you're in, you're just in a constant routine of getting locked up.
It's beyond bizarre how none of you see how the system is ridiculous.
It's like just because it doesn't affect you, you're suddenly incapable of empathizing or using any critical thinking skills regarding it.
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On October 09 2017 14:53 harodihg wrote:
Shouldn't Valve's goal be having everyone enjoy the game and not have any games being ruined?
Do you think there is a way to achieve this?
If there is, then no doubt that would indeed be the best possible outcome. But if there's not, then I consider throwing all the game-ruiners in a box where they can only ruin each other's games preferable to letting them out where they can ruin everyone's games.
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It sounds like you're just asking for a free pass to behave however you want while still getting cooperative, non-toxic teammates. How many games did you ruin yourself? Why didn't you post any screenshots or examples of the things you said and did to get reported down to the shadow pool?
You did this yourself to many other players but now you're upset because you don't like it when other people do it back to you? Boohoo. My "thoughts and prayers" go out to you.
If you've really decided to change your attitude and behavior, then
make another account and don't be a toxic game-ruiner anymore.
Otherwise, you are where you belong.
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Go scrounge my game history or whatever you want to do, but just to keep things clear here. You're the one attacking me now and insulting me.
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Dude enough with your self pity. You have already filled up the QQ Thread with your nonsense. People already disagreed with you there. People will still have the same opinions here as well I am sure.You get what you earn. And you earned yourself a low behavior score, probably because you are an asshole. Yes, you can get it back up by not being an asshole. This is probably too much for you to handle though because your team is constantly griefing and trolling. It really isn't that hard not to get reports. Just stop talking on voice coms and telling people what to do after they disagree with your first comment. And yes, I do believe that anyone with low behavior scores should also be put into games with similar assholes. It is only fair. Why should a well-behaved person get placed with intentional feeders?
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You could actually really easily use opendota to view the allchat to see what I say in games, or even just go over my game history to see how I act and what I do in games. Instead you're going to insult me in a thread where I'm trying to express my concerns.
Baffling.
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On October 09 2017 15:43 harodihg wrote:
Maybe if the system was made to try and change behaviors instead of just creating a cesspool then things would be different. Do you think putting people together who already had poor behavior together, where they're constantly in and out of low priority/mutes/throwing is going to make them one day wake up and see the light and become Positive Mannered Keep It BSJ Players?
What would be an example of a system made to try and change behaviors? What strategies do you think would accomplish this, besides the existing one (disincentive bad behavior by making it have undesirable consequences, like getting stuck in shitty games full of assholes)?
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On October 09 2017 15:49 ASoo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2017 15:43 harodihg wrote:
Maybe if the system was made to try and change behaviors instead of just creating a cesspool then things would be different. Do you think putting people together who already had poor behavior together, where they're constantly in and out of low priority/mutes/throwing is going to make them one day wake up and see the light and become Positive Mannered Keep It BSJ Players? What would be an example of a system made to try and change behaviors? What strategies do you think would accomplish this, besides the existing one (disincentive bad behavior by making it have undesirable consequences, like getting stuck in shitty games full of assholes)?
You can't argue with this guy. His mind is set and his opinion will not change. He will never take the blame for his own actions. He is probably the guy at the end of the game blaming mid or support or carry, its never HIS fault.
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On October 09 2017 15:48 harodihg wrote:
You could actually really easily use opendota to view the allchat to see what I say in games, or even just go over my game history to see how I act and what I do in games. Instead you're going to insult me in a thread where I'm trying to express my concerns.
Baffling.
Are you saying that you did nothing wrong? You were just really, really unlucky and got reported all the way down to the shadow pool from random noise reports?
Besides that, you've proposed no solutions yourself. If the current system is so bad, how do you suggest fixing it?
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I'm not saying that I've never done anything wrong, but is it not the least bit ironic that I'm the one being attacked and insulted in this thread given the topic? lol.
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On October 09 2017 15:55 harodihg wrote:
I'm not saying that I've never done anything wrong, but is it not the least bit ironic that I'm the one being attacked and insulted in this thread given the topic? lol.
I mean, you literally predicted that it would happen in the first post. You can't be surprised that when you make a post complaining about the game treating you as an asshole, and then admit to having, in fact, been an asshole, somebody is probably going to call you an asshole.
I'm trying to give this post the benefit of the doubt here; the OP looks pretty high-effort, and it seems like you're sure you have something to say here, some suggestion for how to fix this. But it seems like your complaint is basically just, "I behaved badly, and the game responded to this (as it was designed to) by putting me in games with other people who also behaved badly, and it turns out that these people are not fun to play with."
Is there, like, more to what you're saying than that? If so, what? What should the game do with game-ruiners, besides lock them away so they can't ruin anyone else's game? Should it ignore their behavior and let them run free? Should it ban them? Should it email them links to free therapy sessions? I'm struggling to see what you think would be better than the system you're railing against.
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On October 09 2017 15:55 harodihg wrote:
I'm not saying that I've never done anything wrong, but is it not the least bit ironic that I'm the one being attacked and insulted in this thread given the topic? lol.
Honestly, can we just stop this "discussion"?
This whole system is built on the idea that you yourself is one day gonna realise that you don't want to play shitty games with people with toxic behaviour. And when you realise that you really, REALLY can't take it anymore, you either quit Dota, or adjust and become a less toxic presence in your games. Either way it gets rid of alot of toxicity for your average dota player. The solution is fine. Unless you got a better one, this is not going anywhere.
This system is the way it is, not to punish you, but to save the rest of us from your behaviour.
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Right, there's no point in me really posting further or explaining what I think should change or even bothering trying to further explain my point about how bad behavior certainly isn't acceptable, but having a system that just increases the amount of it is silly because your mentality if far worse than mine and I'm an F behavior score player, so funny that?
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On October 09 2017 16:25 harodihg wrote:
Right, there's no point in me really posting further or explaining what I think should change or even bothering trying to further explain my point about how bad behavior certainly isn't acceptable, but having a system that just increases the amount of it is silly because your mentality if far worse than mine and I'm an F behavior score player, so funny that?
It would be fine if you actually came with a good solution to make things better, but at this moment your first 2 post of this thread was basically just whining about the bad teammates you had. Until we get a better solution, this is the best way to keep the worst offenders out of your average dota players games.
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Showing you what exactly F behavior score is like isn't whining. Stop posting if you're just going to be a cunt.
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On October 09 2017 16:35 harodihg wrote:
Showing you what exactly F behavior score is like isn't whining. Stop posting if you're just going to be a cunt.
You have not addressed the central point raised in that post and more than once previously:
What alternative system do you think would be an improvement?
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Right, so to head back to what I said before, bad behavior begets bad behavior. If you put someone in a game with 4 other people who just grief, or call other people "niggers", or all other terrible things, chances are they're going to at the least not be happy, or exhibit bad behavior as well. This, in association with numerous other reasons already listed, namely that it debases the entire purpose of having MMR because it alters it, actually makes the game more 'toxic', etc. should easily show that the system in place works at the opposite of it's intended function: improving the game.
I think that the best system would ideally involve having player moderators or some actual oversight to what's going on. If someone is reported enough having a system similar to CSGO's where several players who have good track record's can view what the player is reported for and vote on a consequence. Consequences being things that don't just make people angrier and shittier to one another. Namely things like a time based ban from ranked MM, a time based ban from MM all together, not allowing muted players to play ranked (why is that allowed to begin with?), etc.
In association with that having teams balanced around having 1 low behavior score player paired with 4 high behavior score players, and having changed weight to reports based on current behavior score. This would make it so that if a low behavior score player is just reporting someone out of spite there's a smaller chance it actually impacts anything, or if someone who rarely reports people, but when they do it's for good reason can actually see their report having an impact. And again, to go back to actually having human contact in the report system instead of just having it automated.
If you read over my initial posts before about how the system actually works at F behavior score you'd see why it's impossibly broken and just a negative feedback loop, instead of just looking for ways to insult me.
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i got scurred and checked my own score... apparently it is not a/b/c/etc, but....normal?
confused as to what this means. is i good boy?
solution: make new account, be less toxic crybaby. not off to good start
sucks, i know - but you don't seem to be contesting that you've earned - at least in part - your current behavior score?
you could also reinvest your time into some different, more positive pursuits. i suggest learning a language, volunteering in your community, or reading a book
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
On October 09 2017 15:43 harodihg wrote:Just finished another game. Maybe if the system was made to try and change behaviors instead of just creating a cesspool then things would be different. Do you think putting people together who already had poor behavior together, where they're constantly in and out of low priority/mutes/throwing is going to make them one day wake up and see the light and become Positive Mannered Keep It BSJ Players? It's shockingly similar to the US prison system where once you're in, you're just in a constant routine of getting locked up. It's beyond bizarre how none of you see how the system is ridiculous. It's like just because it doesn't affect you, you're suddenly incapable of empathizing or using any critical thinking skills regarding it.
only you are stopping you from improving your behaviour score. end of.
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You have a few suspect games in your recent matches, including this one https://www.opendota.com/matches/3479607506/overview
I understand your frustration with your team but improving behavior score is a constant uphill battle. Another thing is that opendota and such do not capture mic logs or team chat so with regards to communication toxicity it is not the whole picture we can analyze from. I'm not calling you out or anything, it's just not a great piece of evidence. (look at that MK in your first picture, none of that would be evident from opendota chat logs)
You say you queue with https://www.opendota.com/players/54307128/overview frequently. Given his opendota matches it is clear he is able to not feed and win games too. Sometimes maybe he has bad days where he snaps like the game you played, but chooses a poor way of letting it out on the people he plays with. You should note that he has 2 games of pure feeding to your 1 in the first 3 pages at a quick glance, and he also doesn't use all chat that often, like you. (to be fair it gets worse in the next few pages)
You are right, people with low behavior score are in a negative feedback loop. This does not really help them get out because they are more likely exposed to tilting/rage-inducing situations. The system is not designed for them to get help and climb back to normal behavior games because it is not Valve's job to tweak their in-game personality; it is merely, as people have said, a (imperfect) prison for (some) people that have shown they are capable of ruining games.
Thing is, Valve can't realistically do anything about the system. Toxicity is very pronounced in dota, but it is far from the only game that has these concerns. The onus is on those players to change themselves, even in unfavorable conditions.
There's only really so many things Valve can do to help:
- If Valve prevents toxic accounts from playing, they are losing money because those players may be less inclined to spend money on a game they are being restricted from playing. Alternatively, they create smurf accounts which can potentially ruin new player experience. It's quite often though people that are tilted continue to play games in a fragile state of mind because they don't know how to recognize when to stop.
- If Valve does nothing to police toxic behavior, people with better behavior score are punished for trying to play the game normally. Like you and this Emerge person, you are both capable of playing games normally. You are both also capable of tilting, whether from the draft or poor play or whatever some dude says, and lashing out in some form which reduces game quality. Policing is done at a community level and maybe it's not reliable (reporting for low skill lol) because it doesn't paint the whole picture of your behavior in one game. But all that matters is that you made that mistake in that one game.
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Yeah, I figured that a few of them might seem suspicious, there's a couple there where I have nothing but a shadow amulet in my inventory too.
I'll go ahead and outright say this: I don't throw or grief games
In that game, or any other like that, someone was already throwing or griefing and I was just frustrated and gave up. In that game EmergeExtempore had just followed me around trying to make the game unplayable for me.
Again, it may look like he wasn't and isn't feeding in some of his games, but he picks things like enigma just to follow people around and make eidolons out of the camps they're farming etc.
It's just a more stealthy way of game ruining.
Edit: A few days ago he did this 4 games in a row to me, I tried to play each one. Am I going to get blamed for just giving up and suiciding when someone is doing what he does? Aka not even trying to play and just playing the game to frustrate someone else?
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Hmm well in someways I favor the system cause toxity is just the worst of dota. If I get into a team where someone or someones are toxic I usually mass mute everyone, cause that is the only way I can play the game and not feel shit about it. Also my winrate drops tremendously if I dont, cause I get to distracted to play.
That being said maybe there should be some kind off get out of jail card? To give players a chance to get out of the "shadow pool" under strict conditions? Maybe you could get a match in the "good tier" but you are much more sensitive to reports?
Pretty much a trial period where you have to show above average well behaviour for a strech of matches, 25+? I think that could be reasonable.
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
On October 09 2017 18:29 4ZakeN87 wrote:
That being said maybe there should be some kind off get out of jail card? To give players a chance to get out of the "shadow pool" under strict conditions? Maybe you could get a match in the "good tier" but you are much more sensitive to reports?
it would have to be uninformed. otherwise it's pointless - the person could just exercise all the self-control they can muster to not flame or feed just for that one game. and one game should not be indicative of someone's behaviour.
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On October 09 2017 15:43 harodihg wrote:
Maybe if the system was made to try and change behaviors instead of just creating a cesspool then things would be different. Do you think putting people together who already had poor behavior together, where they're constantly in and out of low priority/mutes/throwing is going to make them one day wake up and see the light and become Positive Mannered
It's beyond bizarre how none of you see how the system is ridiculous.
It's like just because it doesn't affect you, you're suddenly incapable of empathizing or using any critical thinking skills regarding it.
let's change the tone of the discussion, first of all. it shouldn't be a Q&A with you and you only. it should be an actual discussion but as it is, you're pushing back and people are taking that bait because it is easy to tell you that you're not right.
the portion i quoted, "maybe if the system was made to try and change behaviours..."
from anecdotal experience the general idea of trying to change someone's behavior doesn't work very often.
and so you're asking for a system then, to give more of a chance to people who probably deserve it.
i can say that trying my very hardest--and i used to be an extremely nice person--to be accommodating and helpful that there is no such built-in system to reward someone for going out of your way to be a positive influence on the game.
in fact, people will spit on you somtimes even though you are trying to do something nice for them in dota.
i understand why someone wouldn't make another account in this situation. you have money, stats, memories, MMR, and time invested into it. some people don't play this game purely to have matches, they might feel progression through the changes in their account like MMR. then this issue comes up where you can't have proper games. that makes sense and everyone has experience with that.
i don't want to go the league route with the tribunal and whatever sort of censorship and punishment system they got over there. it's boring and controlling. i also don't want to find players quitting because they can't get out of their own pit.
so what it comes down to really, is being reasonable, and playing well.
reasonable for picks, playing so well that it doesn't make sense to flame you.
from that position you can act as person with a little bit of power because people will listen to you for suggestions.
same thing with this thread right here. you're being condemned because you're in this point of your life as a dota player.
with the system not changing, which is very likely, i will make suggestions to change the situation.
you make some really good efforts, people notice you for it, you're playing queue with people who are not as toxic through the friends you make, and automatically i can say the behaviour score will raise.
i don't think it is even that gradual, and i am willing to be part of it.
any other system would have to be more technical, like freebie/buffer points given for some arbitrary valuation of your improvement.
then again, isn't this just another form of MMR in a way?
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I know it`s hard to play the game if u have feeders, ruiners or whatever in your team, but there is no way out of this shit if u buy a shadowamulet and go play hide and seek, or just start to feed.
If u have constantly dumb teammates that just screaming around and shit just go ahead and mute them all. Do everything to not get tilted and it will be better.
Not every person that says: "report that idiot" is actually reporting u. And remember u only have 3 reports a week i guess?
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I imagine this thread has no reason to even be in general so I'm just gonna make a random blog post, I'll stop posting here or whatever
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I'm more interested how you got to F in the first place.
Also I really, really wonder what response you thought you'd get with this thread. "Yeah, I'm an asshole too and the other assholes are really assholes so Valve should have a system that makes me not be an asshole instead of putting me with the other assholes!" ?
People have offered a simple solution- make a new account. If you really got into the shadow pool due to bad luck then you'll be fine. If you got into it because you deserve it then how can you complain?
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I have about 12 other accounts, none of which I've played on recently.
I don't ruin/throw/or grief games and haven't for about 2 years (though I just started playing again last month)
I used to throw games just to intentionally lower my MMR a while ago. I also generally argue back at people and call them mean names when provoked, though for the most part I just stay quiet and keep to my own.
Mostly the former I would imagine is why it's so low. I could just go play on a new account and I'm confident that I wouldn't hit F behavior score on it at all, or even have a bad one, but I'd rather not. I'd rather see the game make changes to improve instead of pushing more of the playerbase into quitting when the playerbase is already dwindling and, from what I last checked, is about 500k players down.
edit: I took the time to write that post in between games
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/IMVf0Ko.png)
:V
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On October 09 2017 18:46 ahswtini wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2017 18:29 4ZakeN87 wrote:
That being said maybe there should be some kind off get out of jail card? To give players a chance to get out of the "shadow pool" under strict conditions? Maybe you could get a match in the "good tier" but you are much more sensitive to reports?
it would have to be uninformed. otherwise it's pointless - the person could just exercise all the self-control they can muster to not flame or feed just for that one game. and one game should not be indicative of someone's behaviour.
Maybe I phrased it weird, but I mean that you should get a chance to play in normal tier at some point.
Then you would have to play for a longer time and prove that you can maintain a good behaviour. Something around 20-40 games. I doubt that the worst of the toxic pool could maintain self-control over 40 games unless they actually put serious effort into changing the way they interact with their team/opponent team. I mean usually these people start flaming once the team lose first blood, 40 games that would be an enterinty for them. Hell 40 games might be a long time for me ^^
Cause I agree with the poster that environment he is playing in is almost impossible to get out. Since the people who are the "judges" is toxic people who will tell themselves whatever they need to make them feel better. Personally I would uninstal dota if I would have to play with these people.
But I think someway of gettting out is reasonable, as I suspect that it would be hard even for a "nice" player to get out of there. Then if he deserves to be there or not is another matter.
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I guess I didn't do a very good job of really portraying why it's so hard to get out exactly right.
I get about 9 reports a day. As in I report 3 people, get them back, report 3 more, get them back, etc.
Due to the nature of the people in F behavior score, they're constantly being muted, or LPQ, or something to where I'm receiving the reports back because of the successful punishment.
Based on this, I imagine they receive the same thing as well, meaning that the most ill behaved people are essentially being doled out more reports than any other player in the system.
The people with the worst behavior have the most power as to who gets punished. Think about that.
When people who are running down mid, afking, or spamming "nigger" are wondering what to do with their reports, who do you think they'll report and what for?
I doubt it matters, they'll just report anyone for whatever reason because they're upset over something. And they're eternally upset because they're forced to play with one another.
Even if you don't say a single thing and play support you can wind up being in LPQ or muted from reports because your carry has a meltdown and starts demanding wards despite none being in stock. Then due to how many reports everyone gets down there they'll just use one on you, then someone else might as well, etc.
It's just a vicious cycle.
Update: just found a game, took 39 minutes.
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I think the point the OP made that most people missed is that it's impossible to escape the 'toxic pool' once you're in it. Either because of report spam, or because of becoming even more toxic because of tilt and playing constantly with other toxic players.
It's basically a whole account thrown to the trash.
As for alternatives, why not make behavior score openly visible and tie item drop rate with it? High behavior score, many commends etc gives a boost to your chances of receiving rare items after a match, lower behavior score lowers it. After a certain threshold, it could even block you from using cosmetics and other ingame stuff such as public channels altogether, untill you repair your score again.
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This topic is oddly satisfying.
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On October 09 2017 20:19 Murlox wrote:
This topic is oddly satisfying.
If it makes you feel any better, sometimes after having multiple of my games thrown in a row I jerk off until my dick bleeds
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On October 09 2017 20:14 ihatevideogames wrote:
I think the point the OP made that most people missed is that it's impossible to escape the 'toxic pool' once you're in it. Either because of report spam, or because of becoming even more toxic because of tilt and playing constantly with other toxic players.
It's basically a whole account thrown to the trash.
Report spam shouldn't be a difficult problem to solve from Valve's end, if true. One idea that comes to mind is reports from low behaviour score players being worth very little. To be honest, though, Valve is probably more interested in keeping flamers from ruining games for the general dota population than "rehabilitating" them.
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On October 09 2017 19:44 harodihg wrote:I have about 12 other accounts, none of which I've played on recently. I don't ruin/throw/or grief games and haven't for about 2 years (though I just started playing again last month) I used to throw games just to intentionally lower my MMR a while ago. I also generally argue back at people and call them mean names when provoked, though for the most part I just stay quiet and keep to my own. Mostly the former I would imagine is why it's so low. I could just go play on a new account and I'm confident that I wouldn't hit F behavior score on it at all, or even have a bad one, but I'd rather not. I'd rather see the game make changes to improve instead of pushing more of the playerbase into quitting when the playerbase is already dwindling and, from what I last checked, is about 500k players down. edit: I took the time to write that post in between games :V
this is me taking the bait because the bolded portion is completely wrong and is indicative of the same lack of compassion or respect that you were saying other people were not showing you in this thread.
like matchfixing, it doesn't matter how often it occurs after a certain point because the idea in itself is so very awful.
blame the player, not the game.
you can reason it out all you want and i'm sure (as i've and many others seen) there are much worse things somebody can do in a game to waste everyone's time.
you're saying here that you'd rather not play, than to have a chance to play good games.
having an unplayable account, vs starting a new and playable one.
yes this is meant to be an enjoyable video game but the people in your games are insane for wasting their own time, or for thinking that it's fun to do so. people out there are suffering for much worse while you have a viable solution right in front of you.
if u say u can get an account to good reputation but hypothetically end up in the same damn place, that is not the game nor the developers' fault. it is your own for not learning regardless of the ridiculous circumstances leading to it.
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Right, I'm aware it was wrong and I didn't say I was a saint, nor defend my actions, also you seem to have misread what I said based on your last few lines because they're the opposite of what I said
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regardless of what i'm, or anyone else is saying, i wish you the best luck.
i'm saying in the last lines is:
in the hypothetical situation that someone makes a new acc. and ends up in the same LP, shadow pool, or even low MMR area of the game, their next excuse would fall on blaming the system; the matchmaking, the people who play this game at the MMR, even the patch.
the mentality is to not blame the game, or the rules, but the player. in this case, yourself because the moral i've been trying to talk about is that you are the only person you can change.
i am also the kind of player who cares too much and argues back, even to this day. it changed for the better in my solo games when i climbed higher past 4k. and that result changed again, when i started playing unranked with my friends at around the 4k level where the problems first arised in solo, meaning that the only thing that changed was my outlook, patience and what i was willing to do. i was having more fun, adding more steam friends, and surrounded myself with fewer unreasonble teammates. i also learned to be a better teammate in the procress.
today, even if i argue back, i'm doing it, trying to change an opinion so we can think about how to win the game, instead of previously where i'm just trying to defend myself from flames, or take something out on someone.
everyone is making dumb mistakes all the time, the best thing from my experience is to move on--even more so when flame bait is on the table.
take the good away from the bad, and keep the good stuff going forwards.
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idea:
you can only report if your team won. (and use it/them on either team's members)
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On October 10 2017 00:29 snow2.0 wrote:
idea:
you can only report if your team won. (and use it/them on either team's members)
So when you queue into a game and your ally walks down mid because someone didn't give him the lane he wanted you can't report him?
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So you're a toxic person who complains theyre put in games with toxic people.
I havent played a low priority game in 4 years of dota. If you think you don't deserve LP, you're kidding yourself.
Same goes for your behaviour score.
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Well you sure are the superior human being between the two of us and your reading comprehension skills are off the charts too! Thanks for taking the time to write that riveting post!
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No problem 
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On October 09 2017 17:22 harodihg wrote:
Yeah, I figured that a few of them might seem suspicious, there's a couple there where I have nothing but a shadow amulet in my inventory too.
I'll go ahead and outright say this: I don't throw or grief games
In that game, or any other like that, someone was already throwing or griefing and I was just frustrated and gave up. In that game EmergeExtempore had just followed me around trying to make the game unplayable for me.
Again, it may look like he wasn't and isn't feeding in some of his games, but he picks things like enigma just to follow people around and make eidolons out of the camps they're farming etc.
It's just a more stealthy way of game ruining.
Edit: A few days ago he did this 4 games in a row to me, I tried to play each one. Am I going to get blamed for just giving up and suiciding when someone is doing what he does? Aka not even trying to play and just playing the game to frustrate someone else?
You don't really need to defend yourself, I wasn't trying to blame you and you already made your case for Emerge. I just commented on your poor choice of asking people to look at your opendota logs, both for your own defense and the people who you blame in your opening post.
What do you really do for people who are not actively trying to win? The people who get a better kick out of dota ruining a game rather than winning a game? The people who would rather see one of their teammates lose than work with them to win? That mentality is not being caused by dota's matchmaking/behavior system.
Plus, think about how the trickle down effect works from pro behavior in pubs. I don't know if you watched the video where Blitz explains CCnC's behavior because people that take away his role for one reason or another "don't want to win the game" or heard about the people who say pros that afk/destroy items are "maximizing their efficiency by making unwinnable games faster" but when these philosophies start getting into lower MMR peoples heads, their behavior is then internally justified. I don't really know how much pro behavior influences pubs on a whole though.
As per your suggestions, Valve could indeed add an Overwatch system to Dota, as they have with CSGO. It's probably the only realistic better form of instigating bans. But considering how long Overwatch has been around for CSGO, you have to wonder why it hasn't been added to Dota yet. It seems Valve is not keen on the idea for some reason, or low on their priority. Perhaps Overwatch is mostly for finding cheaters which is rarer in a game like dota. They probably also kind of rely on hardcore dota audience to keep playing dota even if toxicity is bad.
For your other suggestion, I don't see Valve ever enforcing that kind of 4+1 behavior score matchmaking. I think you have the idea of this as being therapy, but in that case, where is the punishment for being low behavior score? Why should those 4 high behavior score people potentially be subjected to toxic tendencies of the 1 if the game doesn't go their way? What is the distribution of players vs behavior score and how much would that impact matchmaking algorithm/time to find games?
Once the new patch is out or a new battle pass gets released, people are probably gonna stop complaining anyway. Such is the patch cycle.
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Make a new account. Don't be toxic. Problem solved!
This is indeed a problem, and I see your point about the negative feedback loop. But it's a problem that only affects a tiny minority of the population. It's a problem that was instituted to solve a worse problem, that of games being ruined for people who are never toxic.
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On October 09 2017 16:59 harodihg wrote:
Right, so to head back to what I said before, bad behavior begets bad behavior. If you put someone in a game with 4 other people who just grief, or call other people "niggers", or all other terrible things, chances are they're going to at the least not be happy, or exhibit bad behavior as well. This, in association with numerous other reasons already listed, namely that it debases the entire purpose of having MMR because it alters it, actually makes the game more 'toxic', etc. should easily show that the system in place works at the opposite of it's intended function: improving the game.
I think that the best system would ideally involve having player moderators or some actual oversight to what's going on. If someone is reported enough having a system similar to CSGO's where several players who have good track record's can view what the player is reported for and vote on a consequence. Consequences being things that don't just make people angrier and shittier to one another. Namely things like a time based ban from ranked MM, a time based ban from MM all together, not allowing muted players to play ranked (why is that allowed to begin with?), etc.
Something like CS:GO's Overwatch system or League's Tribunal would be great, I agree. It's certainly been proposed before, but Valve just doesn't seem to care to implement it. CS:GO does have a much bigger cheating problem and its matchmaking is worse in general (from my personal experience), but I think it'd be good for Dota as well.
Time-based bans are useless. They will just encourage people to make alternate accounts (if they don't already have any). I don't think that's a good idea. I do agree that muted players should be banned from ranked.
I've understood your point from the beginning. You're saying that it's basically impossible to get out of the shadow pool. I'm just not sympathetic and don't really see it as (much of) a problem. These people are the worst of the worst. I think they're mostly beyond rehabilitation. Yes, if Valve really cared that much about the 1% of perpetrators who "see the light" and shun their old ways, they could probably figure out a decent way to get these people back into the normal population. It's just such a small percentage of the overall player base that they probably don't think it's worth the effort.
In association with that having teams balanced around having 1 low behavior score player paired with 4 high behavior score players, and having changed weight to reports based on current behavior score. This would make it so that if a low behavior score player is just reporting someone out of spite there's a smaller chance it actually impacts anything, or if someone who rarely reports people, but when they do it's for good reason can actually see their report having an impact. And again, to go back to actually having human contact in the report system instead of just having it automated.
You're worried about pushing players away from the game, but you want to punish the best (behaved) players by sticking them with those cretins? Noooooooooooooo thanks.
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So just a thought, the lower your priority (behavior score) the less you can report. This seems like it could at least solve one part of the problem of the circular report structure it also seems like it might be able to help someone get out as those who have a higher behavior score will be determining the reports (People with high behavior scores probably are more level headed and thus making better reporting decisions)
As for everything else, as a few others have said and it looks like you are trying to do, change your behavior. I think its a great idea to start of with unbinding your hotkeys for talking. From there start to focus on congratulating others on good plays (this will help you focus on the positive rather than the negative).
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+ Show Spoiler +On October 10 2017 02:54 Wineandbread wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2017 17:22 harodihg wrote:
Yeah, I figured that a few of them might seem suspicious, there's a couple there where I have nothing but a shadow amulet in my inventory too.
I'll go ahead and outright say this: I don't throw or grief games
In that game, or any other like that, someone was already throwing or griefing and I was just frustrated and gave up. In that game EmergeExtempore had just followed me around trying to make the game unplayable for me.
Again, it may look like he wasn't and isn't feeding in some of his games, but he picks things like enigma just to follow people around and make eidolons out of the camps they're farming etc.
It's just a more stealthy way of game ruining.
Edit: A few days ago he did this 4 games in a row to me, I tried to play each one. Am I going to get blamed for just giving up and suiciding when someone is doing what he does? Aka not even trying to play and just playing the game to frustrate someone else? You don't really need to defend yourself, I wasn't trying to blame you and you already made your case for Emerge. I just commented on your poor choice of asking people to look at your opendota logs, both for your own defense and the people who you blame in your opening post. What do you really do for people who are not actively trying to win? The people who get a better kick out of dota ruining a game rather than winning a game? The people who would rather see one of their teammates lose than work with them to win? That mentality is not being caused by dota's matchmaking/behavior system. Plus, think about how the trickle down effect works from pro behavior in pubs. I don't know if you watched the video where Blitz explains CCnC's behavior because people that take away his role for one reason or another "don't want to win the game" or heard about the people who say pros that afk/destroy items are "maximizing their efficiency by making unwinnable games faster" but when these philosophies start getting into lower MMR peoples heads, their behavior is then internally justified. I don't really know how much pro behavior influences pubs on a whole though. As per your suggestions, Valve could indeed add an Overwatch system to Dota, as they have with CSGO. It's probably the only realistic better form of instigating bans. But considering how long Overwatch has been around for CSGO, you have to wonder why it hasn't been added to Dota yet. It seems Valve is not keen on the idea for some reason, or low on their priority. Perhaps Overwatch is mostly for finding cheaters which is rarer in a game like dota. They probably also kind of rely on hardcore dota audience to keep playing dota even if toxicity is bad. For your other suggestion, I don't see Valve ever enforcing that kind of 4+1 behavior score matchmaking. I think you have the idea of this as being therapy, but in that case, where is the punishment for being low behavior score? Why should those 4 high behavior score people potentially be subjected to toxic tendencies of the 1 if the game doesn't go their way? What is the distribution of players vs behavior score and how much would that impact matchmaking algorithm/time to find games? Once the new patch is out or a new battle pass gets released, people are probably gonna stop complaining anyway. Such is the patch cycle.
@Wineandbread
Sorry, I just felt like I've been on the personal defense here as opposed to just defending my prerogative. I just opted to be open and honest with my matches and what try to provide personal experiences to paint everyone a full picture: approximately 50% of my games aren't playable, and not just provide munitions to be attacked.
I agree that the mentality isn't being caused by dota, but I think that how the current behavior system works sort of almost encourages and stokes that fire in a way.
I think the general consensus is that only a small minority of people have low behavior scores, right? So having them scattered throughout games with higher behavior score players wouldn't necessarily impact their games that much since it's such a minority. With that being said, a system where lower behavior score players who are reported receive outright temporary ranked matchmaking bans as opposed to low priority or mutes (things that I think just cause people to get angrier and act shittier in games)
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The problem with this discussion is getting reported at 2 to 4k is completely different from getting reported at 6k. Most reports at 6k arent because ur griefing. I mean i get low prio if i pick the "wrong" hero or have a game where i die to ganks as carry a couple times. When i play at my 4k acc its almost impossible to get low prio.
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how longs it take to get your behaviour score back up?
i bm people/talk in caps all game long sometimes and that gets me a few reports
last week my power cut out, and then my router died a few days later for exactly 6 minutes, and i was put into low prio
suddenly i was down to 4k/F behaviour report, and (once out of low prio) im pretty sure you notice it, its real scum league
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Good point sertas, I don't know what kind of fix can be made for that. As a sidenote I would like to point out how it's possible for this system to exist in ranked ad infinitum without them dropping MMR. After some searching, I found out that EmergeExtempore has two alt accounts, one with 5k MMR labeled on it whereas his main was sitting comfortably at 4.3k.
My theory on this, is that by throwing a good portion of their games they're essentially tanking their MMR lower than what their skill actually is, thus effectively ruining the competition or spirit of the game even when they're not ruining games because the other team essentially stands less of a chance of winning due to their tanked MMRs.
@FFGenerations
I don't know exactly, but I am trying to do so myself and am working on a log of my progress here
http://www.liquiddota.com/blogs/527523-journey-to-good-boy-valhalla
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On October 10 2017 05:14 harodihg wrote:Good point sertas, I don't know what kind of fix can be made for that. As a sidenote I would like to point out how it's possible for this system to exist in ranked ad infinitum without them dropping MMR. After some searching, I found out that EmergeExtempore has two alt accounts, one with 5k MMR labeled on it whereas his main was sitting comfortably at 4.3k. My theory on this, is that by throwing a good portion of their games they're essentially tanking their MMR lower than what their skill actually is, thus effectively ruining the competition or spirit of the game even when they're not ruining games because the other team essentially stands less of a chance of winning due to their tanked MMRs. @FFGenerations I don't know exactly, but I am trying to do so myself and am working on a log of my progress here http://www.liquiddota.com/blogs/527523-journey-to-good-boy-valhalla
find out how many points one gets for abandoning once, then twice (if any)! it'd be fun to know if i lost like 2000 points by an accident (power cuts), and how fast it takes to gain it back.
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
u lose 1000 behaviour score for an abandon
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Behavior score isn't calculated by points anymore, it's letter grades from A+ down to F
and there's a "normal" in there somewhere too
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United States16280 Posts
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I suppose it would be nice to give F players a game with normal people every 10 games or something (for the ones that are getting less reports than most in the toxic pool), and gauge how they're doing, to give them an opportunity to claw out of there.
From having been an active member on TL for a long time, harodihg, I've known you as nothing but a troll (but a skilled player), so personally I think the system is working very effectively if you're anything like you were 1-2 years ago.
I can definitely see some people seeing it as strict, because people look at it like, well I'm good most of the time, say 95% of the time. But what you have to keep in mind is that if everyone did this, then 50% of the games would be useless. So when you said you were throwing games, I dunno how many, let's assume 100, if everyone did that, that'd be 1000 games... Which would mean more games than all the ones I've played in my life have been ruined. I have very little sympathy. Dota is so dependent on how friendly your team is to be having fun, people who mess up more than a rare Internet going down or a short impulsive fit or rage every dozen games are not ones who I'd want to play with. This seems the way that Valve is going, if this number is small (say 5-10%), they're more than happy to have them stop playing the game if it means the rest will be marginally happier. Quality of games has definitely been going up with time.
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hey fiwi, long time no see. crazy that we used to play sc2 over 6 years ago together and now here we are still
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Suppose you weren't in the shadow pool. Would you want in your team those two players that you complained about on your original post? Would you write this post if they were ruining each other's games but not your games?
I believe the system is working as intended. It is an extension of the Low Priority system, where (presumably) toxic players would go to Low Priority and couldn't play with (presumably) non-toxic, non-low-prio players, but instead played solely with (presumably) toxic, low-prio players.
I do not think this system is the best, even if it greatly benefits me. But I wouldn't argue that this is not how Valve intended it to work.
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You guys are being way too emotional and vitriolic about this. You're hijacking the thread to attack OP instead of giving any actual chance to the hypothesis that the system might be flawed. From what I gather it's pretty clear the system is abused all the time: a player that's in the wrong MMR because he's rusty (think 3 months without playing) will do bad in games and get a lot of reports and have a lower behavior score even what he did was just play bad DotA which shouldn't be punished. I'm high behavior score myself and I rarely have to deal with any game ruiners but I can still see the system's pretty flawed right now and not healthy for the game. I speak from experience when I say you'll get a lot of reports for doing bad in games, I doubt I'm the only one.
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i think hes right, my queus now are 10+ minutes long, i had a 25 minute queu also on the weekend.
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On October 10 2017 11:04 Alpino wrote:
You guys are being way too emotional and vitriolic about this. You're hijacking the thread to attack OP instead of giving any actual chance to the hypothesis that the system might be flawed. From what I gather it's pretty clear the system is abused all the time: a player that's in the wrong MMR because he's rusty (think 3 months without playing) will do bad in games and get a lot of reports and have a lower behavior score even what he did was just play bad DotA which shouldn't be punished. I'm high behavior score myself and I rarely have to deal with any game ruiners but I can still see the system's pretty flawed right now and not healthy for the game. I speak from experience when I say you'll get a lot of reports for doing bad in games, I doubt I'm the only one.
I've gotten a ton of reports from both enemies and allies in consecutive games for flaming and feeding couriers, but I've only been placed in low prio once in all of the past 3 years and that was right after abandoning a couple of games in a row. I'd say that to get there you actually need to be consistently toxic, and not just by being bad at the game. A 4 party stack reporting you isn't worth as much as being reported by 4 different individuals in 4 separate games, so that's not an excuse either. I'd say that this guy definitely deserved it. Most of the people that landed there would try pretty hard to win and get out of low prio, and they'll usually rope in some of their buddies to queue together for easy games.
In fact when I got in there during TI season, those games were the most profitable in terms of wagering. Just try hard, mute everyone if you need to, and communicate using alt+click only. You got to remember that you'll run into game ruining assholes all the time, and it's all about how you react rather than the shit that's happening to you.
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@ kblueriver Even if I wasn't low behavior score I would have made this thread anyway because I care about dota and I think that this is a contributing factor to its dwindling player base
@Oktyabr in the last few months I've received low priority just once, but I often view the games of people I play with who are fellow low behavior score players and they are often in and out of low priority. I just got done playing with a guy called "KrazyKikeKiller" who had pages of low priority, followed by 2-3 ranked games, then more low priority, then rinse and repeat
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In my experience there are people who flame the shit out of everyone but dont give up and still play. Then there are people who who usually say a few bad words but ruin the game on purpose by either going afk, destroy their items, feed on purpose etc. Imo people who flame but still try their best should not be grouped with people who destroy items or ruin games on purpose. I dont give a shit if people flame, there is a mute button for that and I can easily deal with them, but I absolutely loathe people who give up and ruin the game and there's absolutely nothing I can do against that. So in my view receiving a the behavioral score shouldn't be a single value but we need 2: one for those who flame but still play to win and another for game ruiners.
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I think it's fair to say there's a part that's working well and a part that's not.
As people have been pointing out it's working as intended with how these people are being grouped up and separated from the queue. So great.
The problem is there's no rehabilitation mechanism nor is there a path for people to change their behavior then pull themselves up since they're stuck in a pool that's more likely to be toxic, and game ruining.
Then on top of that is another problem where people just like never bottom out. Some of these people seem really irredeemable but they get to flitter around the low behavior score pool with people who are more run of the mill toxic.
So just a thought, the lower your priority (behavior score) the less you can report. This seems like it could at least solve one part of the problem of the circular report structure it also seems like it might be able to help someone get out as those who have a higher behavior score will be determining the reports (People with high behavior scores probably are more level headed and thus making better reporting decisions)
The problem with this, and similar suggestions, is you remove the correcting factor for consistently toxic players. So you go back to the pre-behavior score system where people would get reported a bunch, bounce to low priority, come back and ruin more games for people. The system as is now, has some correction so toxic players who are still toxic stay in the toxic pool and don't infect the general population as much. The problem just becomes that the serial toxic players are a little *too* stuck in their pool even if they reform.
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Yeah, in some ways the current system certainly does work (maybe it's better to say that for some it works as opposed to in some ways) but in others it certainly fails.
When I offered up my ideas I wasn't trying to proclaim them flawless or "needs-to-be-done", just dropping a few ideas for things, that when refined and properly implemented, might help solve what I deem a problem.
I also find the Reddit threads on this stuff funny too
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so correct me if im wrong but how the current system works is that you get matched with players with similiar behavior score - similiar to how people get matched with other people with similiar mmr - and that getting reported despite not doing anything wrong will just decrease your behavior score?
in that case you could be playing normally, not flaming anyone and just playing your own game, and get matched with 4 toxic teammates that just report you for not doing what they expect of you or just for the fun of it, and you get lower behavior score because of that.
Which in turn makes the quality of the concurrent games you play worse and in the long run ruin your chances of actually having a decent game with no griefers
Also coupled with how people are also matched with similiar mmr causes the game to take way longer to match than usual (singsing just took 25 minutes to find a game, presumably because of how the new system works)
which in my humble opinion is a pretty big problem, as if the playerbase isnt at its lowest already for 3+ years.
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Correct Neozxa.
Also, as said in my previous post but to bring it back up - in 2011/2012 it would take probably 3-5 minutes to find a game at any hour.
Now, it takes at LEAST 7 minutes (I haven't had a queue less than 7 since the patch) to find a game even during peak hours. I am not high mmr (4.5k) so it's not like it takes a while to find similarly skilled players. The longest queue time I've had has been 39 minutes.
It almost seems like the way Valve's system works is that it won't let anyone with a behavior score below a certain threshold (maybe D? Since C is normal) get paired on the same team with anyone with a normal score. Behavior seems to outweigh mmr in terms of pairings because I've had over 2k mmr discrepancies in my games (5.5k and 3.2k on my team) which I think is outright absurd
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Any time someone post a topic like this anywhere, people will attack the OP personally just to boost their own epeen.
Anyone with a brain will realise the reporting system have false positives and many other flaws in matchmaking. Valve only cares about their high profits low workers ratio philosophy without caring about the game's long term survival. Only Valve will use a fully automated system to punish toxic behaviors without manually confirming it lol.
If you are not having fun, just quit. Remember why you are playing games in the first place. Maybe Valve will do something drastic when the player population drops even more, but I doubt they will do anything much. They only care about making money through hats in the short term using esports as an avenue to sell them. I don't know if they have anything concrete planned for the long term at all. Cosmetics market is getting more saturated (hence the glance value meme), Valve's current way to deal with it is releasing even less hats and making them more exclusive and expensive in yearly compendiums.
Well one good thing is dota is an extremely solid game for esports, so it will survive a long time in esports. You can still enjoy watching it just like broodwar even when it becomes shit to play.
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I just want to say this isn’t a problem unique to dota. All team based games across the board are experiencing this influx of unchecked negative behavior, from Dota 2 to overwatch. It is a problem with public match making, where a new game is just a click away and accounts for the truly committed to are pretty disposable. Valves system is the classic, hands off let the computers deal with it system. And those can and will be gamed. This problem will likely never be solved by software, not matter how hard Valve and other companies try.
The problem right now is we have zero control over who we play with. If can can’t stack with friends, you are at the mercy of public match making. We can’t tell Valve not to match us with a player again. We can’t auto mute people who use specific words. We can’t mute people with a specific reputation. We don’t get to pick if we want to play with people who want to fill a specific role. So the only options are to deal with whatever assholes are playing valve’s game or play something else. If people are cool with that, great. But lets not act like it isn’t a shitty situation that other pick up games in real life do not have.
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Honestly a slight adjustment to the behavior score metric will fix every problem OP stated in this thread, and fix match finding times in the process.
I honestly think a more transparent system is better for making players realize their mistake and to let people know if they are not very fun to play with instead of a hidden "behavior score" metric that can only be accessed by people who did their research on the subject. Low priority accomplishes this to an extent but I feel that just winning x amount of games doesnt really force them to change how they act.
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Dota toxicity is one of the worst among all team games because of
1. Game is F2P and players can create new accounts easily to troll, smurf, reset whatever penalties their main account has.
2. There are no bans on bad behavior because their punishment is a fully automated one and they can't risk having false positives.
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On October 12 2017 23:25 neozxa wrote:
Honestly a slight adjustment to the behavior score metric will fix every problem OP stated in this thread, and fix match finding times in the process.
I honestly think a more transparent system is better for making players realize their mistake and to let people know if they are not very fun to play with instead of a hidden "behavior score" metric that can only be accessed by people who did their research on the subject. Low priority accomplishes this to an extent but I feel that just winning x amount of games doesnt really force them to change how they act.
Well it is kind of transparent because of the conduct summary, but you dont get to see your behavior score. So maybe they should make it visible only to ourselves somewhere in the conduct summary.
Based on posts here and on reddit, one of the problems people seem to have is once they get to low behavior score and see the type of people they are matched with, they quickly realize they've been asshats too and that's why they are in that pool of players. However, the problem is this: if some people truly want to get their act together and stop behaving like idiots, the system makes that very hard for them because one [or more] of the other 9 players will keep ruing the game. And if this keeps going for 5-10 games they will quickly loose all hope of getting out of that pool, which doesn't correct their behavior, it just tilts them more so they keep being asshats.
I think one way to solve this is how fiwi proposed. Let them know that after 5-10 games of low behavior score games they can go back to normal (C) games for 5-10 games. If they display a bad behavior again they'll be relegated to F score again and they'll have to play 20 games to be given a 2nd chance to C games. And so on and so forth.
Basically: punishing is ok as long as players have a chance to redeem themselves, but like you said in a more transparent way.
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United States16280 Posts
October 4th update had this text :
- Fixed various bugs with matchmaking.
- Adjusted the weight given to behavior metrics to be more focused on a very small percentage of players that were the most offensive players, rather than the general population.
- Adjusted matchmaking for new players to be more sensitive to the number of games played rather than behavior. Players that are detected as smurfs however are treated primarily on their skill and less so on their game count history.
- Improved the behavior scoring system and recalibrated existing behavior score values.
- Improved detection of exploiters, bots, account sellers and in-game feeding. Matchmaking bans are being issued against these types of players.
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EPT![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/7lUBvwF.jpg)
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