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ihatevideogames
570 Posts
It's basically a whole account thrown to the trash. As for alternatives, why not make behavior score openly visible and tie item drop rate with it? High behavior score, many commends etc gives a boost to your chances of receiving rare items after a match, lower behavior score lowers it. After a certain threshold, it could even block you from using cosmetics and other ingame stuff such as public channels altogether, untill you repair your score again. | ||
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Murlox
France1699 Posts
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harodihg
Japan1344 Posts
On October 09 2017 20:19 Murlox wrote: This topic is oddly satisfying. If it makes you feel any better, sometimes after having multiple of my games thrown in a row I jerk off until my dick bleeds | ||
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Sbrubbles
Brazil5776 Posts
On October 09 2017 20:14 ihatevideogames wrote: I think the point the OP made that most people missed is that it's impossible to escape the 'toxic pool' once you're in it. Either because of report spam, or because of becoming even more toxic because of tilt and playing constantly with other toxic players. It's basically a whole account thrown to the trash. Report spam shouldn't be a difficult problem to solve from Valve's end, if true. One idea that comes to mind is reports from low behaviour score players being worth very little. To be honest, though, Valve is probably more interested in keeping flamers from ruining games for the general dota population than "rehabilitating" them. | ||
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nanaoei
3358 Posts
On October 09 2017 19:44 harodihg wrote: I have about 12 other accounts, none of which I've played on recently. I don't ruin/throw/or grief games and haven't for about 2 years (though I just started playing again last month) I used to throw games just to intentionally lower my MMR a while ago. I also generally argue back at people and call them mean names when provoked, though for the most part I just stay quiet and keep to my own. Mostly the former I would imagine is why it's so low. I could just go play on a new account and I'm confident that I wouldn't hit F behavior score on it at all, or even have a bad one, but I'd rather not. I'd rather see the game make changes to improve instead of pushing more of the playerbase into quitting when the playerbase is already dwindling and, from what I last checked, is about 500k players down. edit: I took the time to write that post in between games ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/IMVf0Ko.png) :V this is me taking the bait because the bolded portion is completely wrong and is indicative of the same lack of compassion or respect that you were saying other people were not showing you in this thread. like matchfixing, it doesn't matter how often it occurs after a certain point because the idea in itself is so very awful. blame the player, not the game. you can reason it out all you want and i'm sure (as i've and many others seen) there are much worse things somebody can do in a game to waste everyone's time. you're saying here that you'd rather not play, than to have a chance to play good games. having an unplayable account, vs starting a new and playable one. yes this is meant to be an enjoyable video game but the people in your games are insane for wasting their own time, or for thinking that it's fun to do so. people out there are suffering for much worse while you have a viable solution right in front of you. if u say u can get an account to good reputation but hypothetically end up in the same damn place, that is not the game nor the developers' fault. it is your own for not learning regardless of the ridiculous circumstances leading to it. | ||
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harodihg
Japan1344 Posts
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nanaoei
3358 Posts
i'm saying in the last lines is: in the hypothetical situation that someone makes a new acc. and ends up in the same LP, shadow pool, or even low MMR area of the game, their next excuse would fall on blaming the system; the matchmaking, the people who play this game at the MMR, even the patch. the mentality is to not blame the game, or the rules, but the player. in this case, yourself because the moral i've been trying to talk about is that you are the only person you can change. i am also the kind of player who cares too much and argues back, even to this day. it changed for the better in my solo games when i climbed higher past 4k. and that result changed again, when i started playing unranked with my friends at around the 4k level where the problems first arised in solo, meaning that the only thing that changed was my outlook, patience and what i was willing to do. i was having more fun, adding more steam friends, and surrounded myself with fewer unreasonble teammates. i also learned to be a better teammate in the procress. today, even if i argue back, i'm doing it, trying to change an opinion so we can think about how to win the game, instead of previously where i'm just trying to defend myself from flames, or take something out on someone. everyone is making dumb mistakes all the time, the best thing from my experience is to move on--even more so when flame bait is on the table. take the good away from the bad, and keep the good stuff going forwards. | ||
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snow2.0
Germany2073 Posts
you can only report if your team won. (and use it/them on either team's members) | ||
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Chewbacca.
United States3634 Posts
On October 10 2017 00:29 snow2.0 wrote: idea: you can only report if your team won. (and use it/them on either team's members) So when you queue into a game and your ally walks down mid because someone didn't give him the lane he wanted you can't report him? | ||
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solidbebe
Netherlands4921 Posts
I havent played a low priority game in 4 years of dota. If you think you don't deserve LP, you're kidding yourself. Same goes for your behaviour score. | ||
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harodihg
Japan1344 Posts
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solidbebe
Netherlands4921 Posts
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Wineandbread
United States2065 Posts
On October 09 2017 17:22 harodihg wrote: Yeah, I figured that a few of them might seem suspicious, there's a couple there where I have nothing but a shadow amulet in my inventory too. I'll go ahead and outright say this: I don't throw or grief games In that game, or any other like that, someone was already throwing or griefing and I was just frustrated and gave up. In that game EmergeExtempore had just followed me around trying to make the game unplayable for me. Again, it may look like he wasn't and isn't feeding in some of his games, but he picks things like enigma just to follow people around and make eidolons out of the camps they're farming etc. It's just a more stealthy way of game ruining. Edit: A few days ago he did this 4 games in a row to me, I tried to play each one. Am I going to get blamed for just giving up and suiciding when someone is doing what he does? Aka not even trying to play and just playing the game to frustrate someone else? You don't really need to defend yourself, I wasn't trying to blame you and you already made your case for Emerge. I just commented on your poor choice of asking people to look at your opendota logs, both for your own defense and the people who you blame in your opening post. What do you really do for people who are not actively trying to win? The people who get a better kick out of dota ruining a game rather than winning a game? The people who would rather see one of their teammates lose than work with them to win? That mentality is not being caused by dota's matchmaking/behavior system. Plus, think about how the trickle down effect works from pro behavior in pubs. I don't know if you watched the video where Blitz explains CCnC's behavior because people that take away his role for one reason or another "don't want to win the game" or heard about the people who say pros that afk/destroy items are "maximizing their efficiency by making unwinnable games faster" but when these philosophies start getting into lower MMR peoples heads, their behavior is then internally justified. I don't really know how much pro behavior influences pubs on a whole though. As per your suggestions, Valve could indeed add an Overwatch system to Dota, as they have with CSGO. It's probably the only realistic better form of instigating bans. But considering how long Overwatch has been around for CSGO, you have to wonder why it hasn't been added to Dota yet. It seems Valve is not keen on the idea for some reason, or low on their priority. Perhaps Overwatch is mostly for finding cheaters which is rarer in a game like dota. They probably also kind of rely on hardcore dota audience to keep playing dota even if toxicity is bad. For your other suggestion, I don't see Valve ever enforcing that kind of 4+1 behavior score matchmaking. I think you have the idea of this as being therapy, but in that case, where is the punishment for being low behavior score? Why should those 4 high behavior score people potentially be subjected to toxic tendencies of the 1 if the game doesn't go their way? What is the distribution of players vs behavior score and how much would that impact matchmaking algorithm/time to find games? Once the new patch is out or a new battle pass gets released, people are probably gonna stop complaining anyway. Such is the patch cycle. | ||
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Meta
United States6228 Posts
This is indeed a problem, and I see your point about the negative feedback loop. But it's a problem that only affects a tiny minority of the population. It's a problem that was instituted to solve a worse problem, that of games being ruined for people who are never toxic. | ||
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Eclipsing Binary
61 Posts
On October 09 2017 16:59 harodihg wrote: Right, so to head back to what I said before, bad behavior begets bad behavior. If you put someone in a game with 4 other people who just grief, or call other people "niggers", or all other terrible things, chances are they're going to at the least not be happy, or exhibit bad behavior as well. This, in association with numerous other reasons already listed, namely that it debases the entire purpose of having MMR because it alters it, actually makes the game more 'toxic', etc. should easily show that the system in place works at the opposite of it's intended function: improving the game. I think that the best system would ideally involve having player moderators or some actual oversight to what's going on. If someone is reported enough having a system similar to CSGO's where several players who have good track record's can view what the player is reported for and vote on a consequence. Consequences being things that don't just make people angrier and shittier to one another. Namely things like a time based ban from ranked MM, a time based ban from MM all together, not allowing muted players to play ranked (why is that allowed to begin with?), etc. Something like CS:GO's Overwatch system or League's Tribunal would be great, I agree. It's certainly been proposed before, but Valve just doesn't seem to care to implement it. CS:GO does have a much bigger cheating problem and its matchmaking is worse in general (from my personal experience), but I think it'd be good for Dota as well. Time-based bans are useless. They will just encourage people to make alternate accounts (if they don't already have any). I don't think that's a good idea. I do agree that muted players should be banned from ranked. I've understood your point from the beginning. You're saying that it's basically impossible to get out of the shadow pool. I'm just not sympathetic and don't really see it as (much of) a problem. These people are the worst of the worst. I think they're mostly beyond rehabilitation. Yes, if Valve really cared that much about the 1% of perpetrators who "see the light" and shun their old ways, they could probably figure out a decent way to get these people back into the normal population. It's just such a small percentage of the overall player base that they probably don't think it's worth the effort. In association with that having teams balanced around having 1 low behavior score player paired with 4 high behavior score players, and having changed weight to reports based on current behavior score. This would make it so that if a low behavior score player is just reporting someone out of spite there's a smaller chance it actually impacts anything, or if someone who rarely reports people, but when they do it's for good reason can actually see their report having an impact. And again, to go back to actually having human contact in the report system instead of just having it automated. You're worried about pushing players away from the game, but you want to punish the best (behaved) players by sticking them with those cretins? Noooooooooooooo thanks. | ||
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YourGoodFriend
United States2197 Posts
As for everything else, as a few others have said and it looks like you are trying to do, change your behavior. I think its a great idea to start of with unbinding your hotkeys for talking. From there start to focus on congratulating others on good plays (this will help you focus on the positive rather than the negative). | ||
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harodihg
Japan1344 Posts
On October 10 2017 02:54 Wineandbread wrote: You don't really need to defend yourself, I wasn't trying to blame you and you already made your case for Emerge. I just commented on your poor choice of asking people to look at your opendota logs, both for your own defense and the people who you blame in your opening post. What do you really do for people who are not actively trying to win? The people who get a better kick out of dota ruining a game rather than winning a game? The people who would rather see one of their teammates lose than work with them to win? That mentality is not being caused by dota's matchmaking/behavior system. Plus, think about how the trickle down effect works from pro behavior in pubs. I don't know if you watched the video where Blitz explains CCnC's behavior because people that take away his role for one reason or another "don't want to win the game" or heard about the people who say pros that afk/destroy items are "maximizing their efficiency by making unwinnable games faster" but when these philosophies start getting into lower MMR peoples heads, their behavior is then internally justified. I don't really know how much pro behavior influences pubs on a whole though. As per your suggestions, Valve could indeed add an Overwatch system to Dota, as they have with CSGO. It's probably the only realistic better form of instigating bans. But considering how long Overwatch has been around for CSGO, you have to wonder why it hasn't been added to Dota yet. It seems Valve is not keen on the idea for some reason, or low on their priority. Perhaps Overwatch is mostly for finding cheaters which is rarer in a game like dota. They probably also kind of rely on hardcore dota audience to keep playing dota even if toxicity is bad. For your other suggestion, I don't see Valve ever enforcing that kind of 4+1 behavior score matchmaking. I think you have the idea of this as being therapy, but in that case, where is the punishment for being low behavior score? Why should those 4 high behavior score people potentially be subjected to toxic tendencies of the 1 if the game doesn't go their way? What is the distribution of players vs behavior score and how much would that impact matchmaking algorithm/time to find games? Once the new patch is out or a new battle pass gets released, people are probably gonna stop complaining anyway. Such is the patch cycle. @Wineandbread Sorry, I just felt like I've been on the personal defense here as opposed to just defending my prerogative. I just opted to be open and honest with my matches and what try to provide personal experiences to paint everyone a full picture: approximately 50% of my games aren't playable, and not just provide munitions to be attacked. I agree that the mentality isn't being caused by dota, but I think that how the current behavior system works sort of almost encourages and stokes that fire in a way. I think the general consensus is that only a small minority of people have low behavior scores, right? So having them scattered throughout games with higher behavior score players wouldn't necessarily impact their games that much since it's such a minority. With that being said, a system where lower behavior score players who are reported receive outright temporary ranked matchmaking bans as opposed to low priority or mutes (things that I think just cause people to get angrier and act shittier in games) | ||
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sertas
Sweden890 Posts
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FFGenerations
7088 Posts
i bm people/talk in caps all game long sometimes and that gets me a few reports last week my power cut out, and then my router died a few days later for exactly 6 minutes, and i was put into low prio suddenly i was down to 4k/F behaviour report, and (once out of low prio) im pretty sure you notice it, its real scum league | ||
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harodihg
Japan1344 Posts
My theory on this, is that by throwing a good portion of their games they're essentially tanking their MMR lower than what their skill actually is, thus effectively ruining the competition or spirit of the game even when they're not ruining games because the other team essentially stands less of a chance of winning due to their tanked MMRs. @FFGenerations I don't know exactly, but I am trying to do so myself and am working on a log of my progress here http://www.liquiddota.com/blogs/527523-journey-to-good-boy-valhalla | ||
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