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Netherlands19141 Posts
On July 21 2008 13:34 LonelyMargarita wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2008 13:14 SonuvBob wrote:On July 21 2008 12:50 Mynock wrote:
Reading it tho, seems like all of you who have seen the game and have a more or less competitive gaming mind agree on the bad parts of the game. Now if only Blizzard would listen to our voices, instead of the millions and millions of dollars from newcomers who want pretty graphics and easy life... If only... Fixed. The money is actually quite negligible considering they make like 100 million a month off of WoW. Also factoring in the fact that most of those "masses of noobs" will more than likely buy the game regardless of how it plays as long as it is flashy enough for a month of playing, and they have no reason to cater to them beyond graphically.
Money is never ever negligible to shareholders and investors  . No matter the amount.
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Netherlands19141 Posts
On July 21 2008 14:27 liosama wrote:Nice writeup
Haha cool thanks <3.
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Netherlands19141 Posts
On July 21 2008 15:42 SenseofStar wrote:
I was wondering about the new attack-move rally point, in that since units will automatically fire/chase after anything on their path to the rally, if that could be used to lure a fresh supply of troops off w/ a couple of burrowed lings, or a couple of stray zealots, and if you weren't paying attention, would actually hinder your reinforcements from getting to the fight.
I guess my question would be "How far off do units chase after other units when they're being rallied."
That could introduce some interesting 'cute' plays, although I would prefer the old move only rally as well...
Yeah I guess, but it's just generally annoying and just bad bad game design for a competative game where units a) don't just do as they're told and b) are commanded by the AI.
But yeah theres obviously good things to every problem as well and this what you mentioned obviously would be one of them. Why I agree your positive look at it I guess we all think the other then "move" commands when exiting production are a terrible issue and needs to be dealt with .
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Netherlands19141 Posts
On July 21 2008 16:00 Live2Win wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2008 12:39 Mynock wrote:
LOL, that's me, I actually have proof, add me if you don't believe me. lol that sounds like something from the facebook thread! Op: EPIC POST! I will definately look into this later, I have a paper to write due in 6 hours so right now I can't spare the time  .
Good luck, now I wrapped this one up I'm continueing on an article for a juridical magazine and my bachelor essay Q_Q.
I feel your pain!
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Netherlands19141 Posts
On July 21 2008 16:42 SpiritoftheTuna wrote:
hmm
the computer AI sounds amazing holy shit
have you figured out how it plays if you manage to kill its scouts? or if you proxy dt tech in a place it doesnt scout, will it not get detection? etc
Haha yeah I thought about that as well but I just played like 2 games vs the PC just to at least have it checked out. The highest level PC was actually pretty damned ass challenging one on one if it was one of your first few games. Some of my friends who are pretty damn as poor SC players got their asses repeatedly handed to them by the terran (highest difficulty level at WWI) AI. This while in SC they can take 2 on 1 or 3 on 2 pretty easily on most maps. They do know that game alot better though.
Would be really amazing to try and hidden tech and proxy the PC haha. Killing the scout, dunno if it has an effect but when you did it and he didnt see a building (at least that was the difference between game 1 and 2 that I played, no wall ramp with Z while I was T in the first game) he would send a second worker.
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Live2Win
United States6657 Posts
[15:01] < Naruto > I played a guy that was running around teh map like crazy, when I asked him what he's doing (I thought he dont know the map) he told me he's creeping.
omg that made me laugh so much
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Netherlands19141 Posts
On July 21 2008 21:12 iD.NicKy wrote:
oh Nyovne you're fucking crazy :D
Lawl hi Nicky :D.
/lick
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Netherlands19141 Posts
On July 21 2008 17:22 zatic wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2008 11:21 Nyovne wrote:On July 21 2008 11:13 Ra.Xor.2 wrote:
I disagree with your views on auto-surround though, if blizz is gonna simplify macro, at least KEEP MICRO. I didn't really see it as auto surround, units spread out around a target much smoother and much faster then in SC but its still faster and more efficient to manually control your units. This with the sole exception being zealots with the charge upgrade. I wet my pants every time I saw a decent sized group of them charging at something lol. (unless it was a pack of banelings and they werent on hold position lawl) I remember we talked about this and I guess you are right that microed units are still superior to "auto-surrounding" ones. However, what I really don't like is that this makes it nearly impossible to worker harass with melee units. I remember 2gating PvP and I killed a total of 3 probes :-(
Yeah there were three moments I noticed the new passive AI.
The first was when I couldn't drill my workers, which I luckily found out before I played my game against Kal else I would have been dicked.
The second was when my banelings didn't clutter and block eachother to fuck while trying to get to their targets like infested terrans and scourges do. (that lame blocking eachother and that moment of decelleration and "hesitation" before they hit sometimes)
And the third was when I had speed lings chasing down some zealots which he was retreating to his base. You know when in SC you have some speed lings running after another unit they just stop behind the unit and then start running again and then stop again and then start catching up again while hardly if ever actually hitting the unit? Well in SC2 they do hit it which makes chasing down retreating units alot easier but I didn't really mind. I mean the units are a crapload fast and they should hit the unit. It was just malfunctioning pathing and AI in SC that prevented them from doing the same. Don't really have beef with this one. I mean they just hit the unit a couple of times, they dont "auto surround" it or somthing as it keeps moving unless it runs itself half into a doodad or cliff.
On the subject of worker defense vs early harass, I actually found my workers to be a bit stronger vs zealots because there is just one or two of them and easily surrounded but alot weaker vs zerglings or marines. Not being able to drill is a real bitch, you can retreat your units alot less efficient and you cant do the drill/attack/drill/attack dance which was where the real strength lay in worker defense. When the marines were microed drones just wouldn't catch up due to the new increased range which marines start off with and vs zerglings they just took too long to get around all of them. I mean vs zergling harass in SC you could stack some workers and then trap a zergling or two and pretty much instantly kill it with some drones or probes of your own. Now the lings will just be getting hits in and you cant stack to defend while he will just pull out again when you try to move your targetted worker through your groups of mining workers.
I'm still of the opinion that the loss of stacking and drilling is a bigger loss to worker defense then the new more efficient pathing AI is a boost to it. I guess it depends alot vs which unit you are defending and especially in what quantity.
Ah well, time will tell when its played with extensively .
edit: Oh one more important note about that worker defense is that it really felt like they reduced the probe and drone attack range (aka from 1 back to 0). Which means they gotta get up close and personal like zerglings do isntead of being able to fire over one. This might explain why they actually all try to get as close to the unit as possible and in that process semi/wholly try to surround it.
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Netherlands19141 Posts
On July 21 2008 20:19 ForAdun wrote:I forgot to mention one negative point about your post: then =/= than I'm not a native english speaker but even I know the difference, you should try and find those misspellings 
Haha thanks I'll try, I already tried to disclaim it at the end. Cba anymore to actually reread the whole thing and then go in and edit it again haha.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
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Rallied units with attack-move does seem odd. It's probably the easiest thing to change though.
It seems the most common command to units are, move and attack-move. I don't know what the ratio is, I may even use attack-move more than standard move. There could even be a case for having attack-move as right-click and standard move with a hot-key. Dunno what should be the default as units leave buildings. I think both have pros and cons. Maybe make it toggle-able.
OT... I quite like the additional move commands in CnC3. I saw it take a lot of flack from ppl that wondered why their units didn't do what they wanted. I thought it worked well. If you wanted your tank to move to a back position, you could use "move" or "reverse". A lot of people used "move" and started crying when the tank actually made a turning circle driving closer to the enemy. haha. If you use reverse it literally reverses, keeping its front at the enemy and continues to fire as it moves back.
It's odd about not being able to tab through unit types in a control group. I hope that finds it's way in. I gather that you are pleased with this, personally i think it's crazy not to have it.
Shame to hear you argument against MBS and auto-mine amounted to "it is against the spirit of SC" or whatever that means.
"To sum it all up:
- You have 8 hatcheries spread around the map, you select all of them with 1 push of a button;
- You then proceed to press S to select all larvae of all your hatcheries;
- You then proceed to queue up whatever amount of units in whatever combination you desire;
- You then engage the enemy with your army and put the rally point right in the middle of the fighting;
- Then proceed to control your army while all your drones hatch and immediately get to work, and while all spawning reinforcements immediately head over to the fight where they immediately join in the attack thanks to the attack-move rally command."
This sounds bad, like all you do now is sit back and win. Well, shame your opponent also has the same functionality at his disposal. Are you just going to sit there and watch as the auto-armies fight it out? What is going to break this deadlock? Oh, that's right, skill. A finer and more subtle skill, still high APM, just allocated to other things more directly related to the battle, than the side-game of making units.
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On July 21 2008 17:22 zatic wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2008 11:21 Nyovne wrote:On July 21 2008 11:13 Ra.Xor.2 wrote:
I disagree with your views on auto-surround though, if blizz is gonna simplify macro, at least KEEP MICRO. I didn't really see it as auto surround, units spread out around a target much smoother and much faster then in SC but its still faster and more efficient to manually control your units. This with the sole exception being zealots with the charge upgrade. I wet my pants every time I saw a decent sized group of them charging at something lol. (unless it was a pack of banelings and they werent on hold position lawl) I remember we talked about this and I guess you are right that microed units are still superior to "auto-surrounding" ones. However, what I really don't like is that this makes it nearly impossible to worker harass with melee units. I remember 2gating PvP and I killed a total of 3 probes :-(
Don't the workers still have to get behind your zealot before they can surround it? You just need better reaction time in order to pull off harass effectively. You just need to focus your full attention to prevent the surround while wasting their mining time attempting to surround you. This can add a whole element of skill required for the harasser, rather than take away from the game. It will just take practice, or you can watch the Korean progamers do it.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
On July 21 2008 22:10 teacake wrote:
This sounds bad, like all you do now is sit back and win. Well, shame your opponent also has the same functionality at his disposal. Are you just going to sit there and watch as the auto-armies fight it out? What is going to break this deadlock? Oh, that's right, skill. A finer and more subtle skill, still high APM, just allocated to other things more directly related to the battle, than the side-game of making units.
Oh you mean like Warcraft 3? sure
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Awesome post. My eyes now hurt.
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wow! Nice work man.
Should be frontpaged imo. I actually got more out of this writeup then i did out of the 'official' TL one.
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Great writeup, I actually read the whole thing! I really appreciate all the time and effort you must have put into this post. Your writing was very clear and I felt that I got a good sense of the current state of SC2 even though I wasn't fortunate to attend BWWI. It's nice to see some of our worries may be assuaged by a little gameplay experience. Also, I agree that the attack-move rallying seems like more of a pain than a convenience in several situations.
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I read about 80% of your article and when i saw how much the rest 20% was my head startef hurting and I've stopped reading there.
From what I've read I mostly agree with you, especially about AI overwriting player commands and the new -attack-move spawn command, that those things ARE REALLY BAD
They should be fixed by making them as they were in brood war and give the player full control over the units!
I also agree that auto-mine should be removed as well as smart-cast.
MBS can stay if blizzard can find additional way to increase the macro that MBS removes, like the mutant larva thing, warp-gate thing and maybe something for the Terran.
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Sorry for the spam , but i got one question Nyo:
- About the micro being too simple "Blink up , kill something, blink down".
can you make a comparison to brood war micro please , i couldnt understand/figure very well ^^
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Sweden33719 Posts
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On July 21 2008 22:15 teamsolid wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2008 17:22 zatic wrote:On July 21 2008 11:21 Nyovne wrote:On July 21 2008 11:13 Ra.Xor.2 wrote:
I disagree with your views on auto-surround though, if blizz is gonna simplify macro, at least KEEP MICRO. I didn't really see it as auto surround, units spread out around a target much smoother and much faster then in SC but its still faster and more efficient to manually control your units. This with the sole exception being zealots with the charge upgrade. I wet my pants every time I saw a decent sized group of them charging at something lol. (unless it was a pack of banelings and they werent on hold position lawl) I remember we talked about this and I guess you are right that microed units are still superior to "auto-surrounding" ones. However, what I really don't like is that this makes it nearly impossible to worker harass with melee units. I remember 2gating PvP and I killed a total of 3 probes :-( Don't the workers still have to get behind your zealot before they can surround it? You just need better reaction time in order to pull off harass effectively. You just need to focus your full attention to prevent the surround while wasting their mining time attempting to surround you. This can add a whole element of skill required for the harasser, rather than take away from the game. It will just take practice, or you can watch the Korean progamers do it.
yeah but problem is workers look like they have better acceleration than before and they still have a higher natural top speed than zeals. depending on the surround AI, this could make surround unavoidable.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://img136.imageshack.us/my.php?image=treatisedeoptickalr2.png)
