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Netherlands19124 Posts
1 Introduction.
Paris, Paris 2008, Blizzard WWI Paris 2008, progamers, european beer, pretty ladies and Starcraft 2.
After helping Haji cut a 6000 man line that stretched to and beyond infinity (which is still confounfing physicists) us weedlanders +1 checked in at the gates. After getting our badges we drew our swords and led by Haji’s samurai warcries we singlemindedly made out way inside cutting a swath of carnage and destruction through WoW and WC3 players alike showing them what real life epic looked like. Our goal was singular and with the glowing blue screens in sight nothing was going to stop us now.
Skipping any form of queue we sat our asses down, made a half assed attempt to put the headphones on while frantically trying to click “Multiplayer”. Finally after taking a deep breath we actually hit it and we watched the loadscreen kick in.
It was on.
Fifteen minutes later I stood up from my pc with a grin on my face as the first gg of the day was still flashing at me from the screen against a nice background of tanks, thors and battlecruisers that were still stomping all over the remains of the enemy terran base.
With the flavor of midgame nuclear destruction and fusion powered mecha’s still fresh in my mind I went and queued again, and again, and again. About 17 hours worth.
I mean, hell, it was about damn time.
2 Cutting right to the chase.
Alot of people, yours truly included, worried alot about SC2 because of what we read about it and what we saw of the game from screenshots. Worries about MBS, automining, gamepace, unitcontrol, flashy pew pew lasers, visual clutter that would render the game into chaos where noone has any idea whats happening anymore, let alone certain units or this whole new golden minerals thing. To this I have to add and to stress that I cut my part which discussed invididual units and contained the racial reviews. At a point in time where on a weekly basis units are completely changed, removed or even replaced with a whole new unit, it seemed irrellevant. Such a treatise or article seems loans itself much more to be written during the upcomming Beta phase of the game where it can be updated on a regular basis.
To cut things short,
I worried, I hoped, I played, I experienced.
2.1 How did she handle?
There obviously are alterations to the original game, implementations of certain mechanics, new units, a new engine. This left begging the question, has it lost its feel, its pace, its spirit?
Let me soothe worrying soul. It sure as hell hasn’t, this is starcraft, next gen starcraft, alive and kicking. You still got your workers bringing home that vespene and minerals, who cares that at the start its 6 intstead of 4 of the buggers and that they return 5 instead of 8 resources. As long as there is smoothe gameflow noone should, thats for sure, the exact resources are just a means to an end. Losing your units still doesn’t mean the end of the world, there are no weird hero units, expanding is still the order of the day and the only neutral critters that you’ll see will just wave at you and drop nothing but some poop on your freshly painted tank let alone “loot” as some people found out in Paris to their grave disappointment.
[15:01] <Naruto> I played a guy that was running around teh map like crazy, when I asked him what he's doing (I thought he dont know the map) he told me he's creeping.
Poor critters.
The gamepace felt fast, it felt starcraft. The action came early in games with zeal probe rushes, fast pools, offensive bunkers, offensive spinal crawlers, offensive cannons and proxy gates. Scouting workers still roamed the map (even the computer player in the current absence of SC2 map hacks decided to send out a worker scout to check what I was up to), battles were fast and brutal, drops were distracting people while armies clashed and expansions were taken. Yes this was SC allright.
During my playtime at the WWI it suffices to say that alot of my worries were consoled. The most important thing to me was that SC2 still has the starcraft spirit, the starcraft gamepace and just that unique “feel” everyone who has played SC knows about compared to other RTS with perhaps the sole exception of Total Annihilation. (Yes I just went there.)
As the SC soul still lives on in its next reincarnation it was time to take a look at the flesh in which it would be living its next life. Was karma going to be a bitch?
2.2 The grit in which we spit.
The maps, the dust, the grit in which our armies spit, bleed and die. The grand arenas, the places where it all goes down.
The maps.
Read that again.
Come on read it a third time.
Why? They might be the single most important thing in the game. The presence of the SC soul eased my worries but the maps were what gave me expectations for SC2. And not just any, but the highest.
The game lives up to its predesessor in this department and then some. Blizzard took mapdesigning to the next level and this is in my opinion essential for SC2 and its future. The thing that made me so hopefull and enthusiastic about SC2 is that it appears to be a game thats balancable by map just as SC is. Just changing a map can solve so many balance problems or create such a new and innovative playground for the three races we all know and love within hours to keep the game evolving and players and fans entertained alike.
It's worked wonders for SC as a game which is mapbalanced over a basic ground level of racial balance.This allows for a dynamic game even when its years old, namely through new and innovative maps to breathe new life into the game on a regular basis to keep it going and going and to force players to discover new depths to gameplay and strategy. The effect of poor map design could be seen immediately in ’07-’08 when the Korean Starleagues had seasons with recycled and most of all uninspired maps. The quality of games and the enthusiasm of the fans took a dive side by side. Another prime example of how a stagnated map pool can negatively affect a game is Warcraft 3 TFT. It was not until a few months ago that they had new maps implemented for online ladder and tournament play. They played the same maps for an almost unbelievable period of 5 years! That the quality of games became less and less due to lack of evolving gameplay and stagnation of strategies along with the stagnant mappool can come to noone as a surprise. All the more reason to learn from the past and to prevent this from happening and aversely effecting SC2 when it comes out and limitting its promising future.
It’s good to see that Blizzard has been ahead of the curve on this one seeing that they have been paying alot of special attention to their new map-editor for SC2. Something which has undoubtedly been inspired by the succes of Korean map designs that have evolved over the years and with their use of neutral buildings, alternative ramps and permanent spell effects for example. Not even to mention the incredible succes Blizzard has had with the WC3 map editor which gave birth to succesful games such as Defenders of the Ancients (DotA), which might even overshadow the original game in its popularity.
2.2.1 The dirt.
It seems that Blizzard has taken a good look at current starleague maps and the gimmicks used and implemented there like wide or alternate ramps, and neutral buildings. They have taken this to the board and improved upon it so that such things could be properly implemented in a SC2 mapdesign without having to revert to weird random Xell’Naga temples flanked by terran reactors with a kakaru or three pooping all over them in the middle of some random jungle just to achieve a temporary blockade for the ground forces of the involved combattants. Blizzard came up with a whole variety of implementations to allow for creative and varying mapdesign, some are reworks or proper implementations of already existing ideas, others wholly new. And they got me exited.
There are still neutral buildings in SC2, but Blizzard has expanded on that idea by actually implementing neutral and destructable terrain such as rock formations. These rockformations and possibly other still to be implemented destructable terrain can form temporary blockades for ground units just as in SC to create a dynamic map with different gameplay phases during the course of a game. Small improvements found their way into every nook and cranny of the game and this part is no exception. Destructable terrain such as said rocks can for example also be placed on the sloping part of a ramp to block it while still giving it a smoothe natural appearance. I can only wait with great expectation to see if there will also be a proper SC2 implementation of something to achieve a ramp or choke of variable size. Not just by widening it by destroying partial rockformations on it but also by possibly narrowing a choke as can be currently seen implemented in Korean Starleague maps by use of assimilators and depleted vespene geysers such as on the map Troy.
So Blizzard design didn’t just implement blockades which don’t block line of sight, but also implemented destructable blockades which don’t block line of sight. But they didn’t stop there, and they implemented a terrain that blocks line of sight but doesn’t block unit movement. This is currently implemented in two ways which we were able to experience at Paris, the bushes and fields of tall grass and vents in the space platforms that produce walls of thick black smoke. The gameplay options these open up in ways of ambushes, flanks, and proxies are really exciting. All I’m still waiting for at this moment is the implementation of destructable terrain that blocks line of sight which seems to be the only option missing from the row of implemented blockades.
Another thing that was introcuded to us along with the first peek at SC2 over a year ago was the new forms of terrain elevation available. There used to be three levels of elevation in SC, the starting level of terrain, the half elevation which blocked unit progression but not line of sight and high ground which blocked unit progression as well as line of sight. Now we find ourselves with normal basic terrain and the half elevation which blocks units but not line of sight, but then when it comes to highground several changes have been made. There now are two levels of highground, and not just for looks! Several units in the game are able to scale a single level difference in elevation to gain acces to certain areas without transport support, take shortcuts into an enemies base or to cut of certain units. This is another great way to create interesting variations in mapdesigns and opens up new ways to strategise and micro your units to maximum effect.
So the terrain has alot of new promising things to keep map designs innovative, varied and exiting. But it doesn’t stop there, the terrain isn’t the only part of a maps design and not the only thing variable per map. At least as important as the terrain, if not more important are the resources that are scattered across the map which are freely adaptable per map design.
2.2.2 The dough.
The real changes in SC2 compared to SC in this area are the reduced yield per return from vespene geysers and the implementation of high yield minerals (the golden/yellow mineral nodes).
We really found out at WWI the influence the vespene change alone had on the number of options a player has for the amount of opening strategies that someone can take. All maps we played at WWI had two geysers available at your main, if you are exploiting both you have about the return yield compared to 1.25 gas in SC, maybe a little more. A player now has to make a choice to play a gasless or lowgas opening compared to the investment of not just another 100 minerals for an additional assimilator or refinery but also the three additional workers it requires to effectively mine it and to proceed effectively up your tech tree and produce gas heavy units. Playing a gasless opening induces additional complications in SC2 compared to SC1 as certain tier 1 buildings now require gas to build (with the exception of the hydralisk den). Examples are the baneling nest, the roach den, the engineering bay and most importantly of all the 100 vespene gas requirement to warp in that precious cybernetics core for the protoss to access those stalkers, nullifiers and open the way to tier 2 tech.
The presence of one or two geysers in your main and the subsequent amount of geysers present at expansions across the map, especially at your natural have a very large impact on the amount of strategies a person can pursue and the risks he can take. A good example is how with two geysers in my main I could opt for a three hatch zergling baneling build which requires just a single gas to support and leaves you with a higher mineral income, because I didn’t build a second extractor and as such had 4 extra drones on minerals, or choose to pursue a three hatch roach build that requires you to have two gas to be able to fully support that. Now compare both of those to a build where your natural cliff is threatened and you are forced to take dual or more vespene geysers to quickly tech to mutalisks/nydus worms to effectively defend your natural from cliffplay.
Halfgas strategies will be a different if not new dimension to the early game period in SC2 compared to SC in addition to the already existing temporary gas mining (9 supply overpool, speed, being an example of this for zerg) to open up a larger scale of opening strategies and builds depending on the chosen resources alotment by the player.
One thing concerning resource variation on maps that for my feeling never has been really explored in SC, but which we were confronted with while playing the SC2 maps was the use of low gas geysers. This in the way that the main geysers don’t contain the usual 5000 gas but just a thousand for example. This forces some serious thinking on behalf of the player concerning when to take his gas and if he will opt for a short period hard two gas tech and upgrade style or opt for a more prolonged and drawn out halfgas playstyle. Both which have their own influences on the time when gas depletion forces a player to seek new fresh gas expansions.
Offcourse the low gas geysers at WWI were mostly implemented in the maps to force players to explore the new gas mechanic Blizzard had implemented in their latest build. In short this new gas mechanic consists of players being able to spend a limited resource in return for an unlimited one. Players can spend an amount of minerals to undeplete their geyser for a set amount of time to increase their rate of gas aquisition. By varying the amount of geysers per base and the amount of gas in them combined with the new gas mechanic there are alot of different ways for mapdesigners to influence the way that players can aquire and spend their precious vespene gas. By doing this they can subsequently influence the strategies players can effectively persue and the pace at which they will be forced to expand if they want to keep a steady flow of vespene gas.
With the implemented changes to gas yield, the amount of geysers per base, the new gas mechanic and the introduction of high yield minerals Blizzard has opened up alot of ways compared to SC to vary and differentiate gameplay per map solely based on the way the resources are distributed across the map.
To conclude this part I find it safe to say that I am very happy with the approach being taken by Blizzard towards map design and that SC2 won’t go the way of WC3 but that the path to proudly follow in the steps of its predecessor stands wide open with plenty of room for innovative gameplay and varying maps and strategies employed by players world wide to keep the game fresh and evolving.
2.3 Lights, Camera, Argh!
One of the good things about SC was that it was a visually clearcut game even though it was very fast paced. Even with dozens of units ripping eachother apart on screen a spectator can still see clearly what is going on and a player won’t lose the clear picture of his units and will retain a clear overview of the battlefield. This basis immediately resulted in great worry among the starcraft community about the visual aspects of SC2 after the first footage was made public in the forms of screenshots and the protoss gameplay video.
The camera angle was supposedly unclear and resulted in a bad overview of the battlefield and it would complicate unitselection and control alot. Not only was the camera angle criticized but the visual effects from the game itself would aversely affect gameplay as well. All the extravagant explosions, unit death animations and above all the dreaded lasers would obscure what was really going on. This would in turn prevent the player from properly selecting and controling his units let alone get a clear picture of what was actually going on to make the correct decisions based on what he was seeing.
Any worry or doubt about this that had taken root inside my head was soon expelled after sitting down and actually playing the game. The camera angle wasn’t annoying at all and didn’t limit any overview of the game and the battles that took place. It just looked like SC to me. The game has a 3D-ish engine but the units and buildings are still clear cut, it’s not like units disappear behind a building due to it’s 3D aspect where you might lose them or can’t see them anymore and whats being done to them other then already in SC itself.
From my experience so far the visual upgrades implemented in SC2 have been nothing but eyecandy for me and a real treat. The game just looks incredible. Camera angle, visual effects, terrain formations or unit sizes, none of this bothered me at all during any of the games I played at WWI.
2.3.1 Size does matter.
I’ll even go as far as that SC2 is clearer in this department compared to SC and has shown some good improvements. This in the form that units and terrain actually consume the amount of space they seem to be taking in. A cliff ends where it seems to end and it doesn’t end halfway the animation and the rest can’t be moved into by a unit or built upon because the terrain square still extended there. No weird different building blocks and walls from different angles with different units being able to pass through, no now things fit the way they look If your wall looks watertight it now actually is watertight and no more weird zergling or even zealot runthroughs. These are good improvements and help clear up the game where SC was lacking in this department and prevents some nasty surprises from an unexpected angle for the less experienced players and some positional dependant complications or imbalances for the more experienced.
The fears about the flashiness of the game and how it would obscure the action and prevent the player from getting a clear picture of what was going on I felt to be unfounded as well. The amount of mass battles I played were obviously extremely limited but let me stress that the game in motion appears very differently from how the game looks captured in a screenshot. Any of the people I talked to about visual aspects possibly complicating gameplay were surprised about me actually mentioning it if they were unfamiliar with the fears concerning the topic or fully consoled if they had worried about it.
The only moments where I did lose the overview of my units or those of my enemy was when they would walk beneath air units, were being swarmed by interceptors or were walking beneath a collossus but even then it was less of a selection problem then in SC because units are actually as big as their model says they are. I can only perhaps see terran infantry getting a bit lost between a large amount of thors or zerglings/banelings between a sizable force of ultralisks, but I don’t really see that happening as an often occurring let alone actual problem. Most units if not all will be under hotkey control groups anyway and for the rest most of the obscuring factors I mentioned if not all are already in SC (swarms of flying units etc) where it isn’t a real problem because of the hotkey control.
To add to this I’m sure that Blizzard will implement alot of visual options to be modifiable such as detail reduction and flashy attack or spell effects just as in World of Warcraft. This not just to increase the amount of people that can play the game by reducing the minimum hardware requirements but also to clear up the view for players if they experience problems to identifiability due to it.
2.3.2 Hey is that your archon or mine?
A last point to stand still at when discussing the game’s visuals is individual unit identifiability. I mean that in two different ways, first and foremost that you can tell individual units apart and can easily select them, secondly that in a teamgame you can clearly identify who’s unit belong to who. Both issues weren’t a problem for me, the only unit that might ail a bit from proper identifiability is the zergling, especially when they are moving or attacking it can be a bit of a confusing for the opponent as to actually getting a good idea and general estimate of how many of the little buggers are actually out there. They really do the word swarm honor but again I can’t really see this as a problem that would actually aversely affect the game. I mean, stacked flyers or a burrow stack anyone?
Blizzard really gave it their all when whipping out that colour palet and giving all their units a new lick of paint. The colours look amazing, especially the new terrain desaturated colours are a real improvement over the old colour scheme. Units also have alot more of their team colour on them then in the original SC. This makes a bunch of units from the same race engaged in combat with eachother alot more identifiable. If people had problems in teamgames with this I’m pretty sure this will solve whatever beef they had with it.
In short, the the game looked nothing less then incredible to my tastes and I saw no visual complications at all, just improvements over the original.
2.4 It’s alive! It’s allliivvvvveeeee!!!!
One of the most surprising discoveries I made at WWI (That didn’t involve the sexual preferences or promiscuities of certain community members.) was the changes that were made to the games A.I.. The unit pathing is cleared up so much it’s almost unbelievable. You can now send a group of units down a narrow ramp and half of them won’t bunch up, think there’s no way down there and start running around through your base like headless chickens (Yes golliaths, dragoons and Crizpy, I’m looking at you.). Personally I loved it that my units didn’t respond strangely to my commands and sometimes got stuck behind other units or buildings when trying to reach a certain destination or just generally trying to do what they were told. Units move alot more smoothely and naturally then they did in SC and are alot easier to control without the presence of some weird quirks.
2.4.1 Follow the yellow brick road.
This sparked some debate amongst the TL.net players and staff present in Paris and resulted in some divided opinions about it. Let me elaborate a bit on this. Surrounding for example is alot easier then it was now that unit pathing and unit clutter is totally reworked and smoothed out. Alot of people found this to be too easy and even went as far that units with a simple attack-move command would perfectly surround their opponent without the need for any actual further control on the players part. I have to disagree here, especially on the part that the new pathing/clutter AI would make player control redundant. The new AI makes the game alot easier to access and the units alot easier to control for newer or less skillied players which I see as a good thing. This while in my opinion units still function alot more efficiently while being live-controlled by the player. So the new AI makes units less frustrating to use for newer players while at the same time for the more skilled and experiened players it still pays to actually fully control your units like you did in the original SC because no AI can replace high skilled human control or micro. As such these AI changes shouldn’t deduct any if at all from the amount of time and skill a player has to devote to this aspect of the game compared to SC.
The only times that I went “woah” at the new pathing AI is was every time I saw a sizable group of zealots with the charge upgrade instantly surrounding a group of opponents. It’s aweinspiring and every bit as powerful as it looks.
The new and increased pathing AI also creates some new issues as far as ramp blocking goes. Where it formerly could cost as little as one marine, zealot or worker to block your ramp to prevent your opponent from scouting your base or to block that swarm of zerglings to run through into your main or expansion, it now can cost as many as 4 zealots to effectively block the small (Lost Temple/Python) sized ramp that gives access to your main. This is partly offset due to the greatly increased functionality of buildings to wall off but however you look at it there will remain alot more room then there used to be in SC to get that worker or unit in to gain that vital information about what your opponent is up to. Let alone how much harder it is to hold a ramp with units against zealots or especially zerglings trying to run past, surround or simply force their way up there. Again this seems like just a change to me, nothing more, let alone to be something “good” or “bad” for the gameplay or balance. Time will tell.
Two final interesting things to make note of here is firstly that “worker-drilling” is impossible in the build of SC2 that we played and that there wasn’t any interest to bring it back. This pretty much offsets the increased unit pathing AI that allows for workers to deal with early game harass by for example surrounding a zealot alot easier. But since you cannot stack your workers anymore, they also cannot move through your own or an enemies units anymore. I find this a rather conflicting change in control compared to the original. No drilling and stacked maynarding away to your expansion through enemy units is quite a big change. You just can’t send workers with the harvest command through an enemy unit anymore and then press stop-attack-move and harvest again and repeat to render them idle and useless while trying to get out from under those workers while dying without getting a single hit in. If I actually had to have an opinion about this I’d even go as far as to say that the removal of drilling and worker stacking has nerfed workers more then the new pathing AI has buffed them, especially pure workers defending themselves from attack/combat units, but that’s a personal opinion and I know alot of people who disagree with me about this.
The second and last thing I’d like to remark about concerning this whole pathing AI is...
GUESS YOU WISH YOU HAD REAVERS NOW EH DIRTY PROTOSS SCUM.
I know you people are already wetting yourselves thinking about scarab functionality with this new AI. Don’t deny it, you people dream about it night after night. But rest assured there won’t be any reavers with ruby red slippers this time around. (Watch me have to eat those words in Beta.)
As a final note, let me assure you the reader as a starcraft fan and perhaps confound you as a warcraft fan that even with all the increased pathing and clutter units will still behave in groups pretty much as they used to in SC. It’s not warcraft 3 where units retain a certain formation while moving in in a group. This is still the good old starcraft feel with the kinks smoothed out.
2.4.2 I am The Sherminator. I'm a sophisticated sex robot sent back through time, to change the future for one lucky lady.
Not only the passive AI in SC2 has gotten a fullscale makeover but the Computer AI as an opponent as well. I remember laughing out loud when I was playing a terran computer opponent and a little scv walked right up into my base, took a sneak peak around and then took off, little orange flames burning in the distance as it headed back towards its base to report what it had seen in my base.
The Computer opponent now doesn’t just scout you but it actually adapts to it. If the PC sees you have little or no units it will attack immediately and if it scouts certain buildings it will immediately start aquiring detection or anti air. The PC in the original SC used to execute one of several builds and just follow the programmed plan. The PC in SC2 adapts to what it scouts which results in variable timings by the AI and a change in unit composition. If you think a flexible Computer opponent is cool and adds to the challenge, you can’t wait to see the moment for yourself that absolutely made my jaw drop. I had some slow lings to defend my fast expansion and I deemed that enough to defend vs any early attack the Terran PC might launch. Well was I in for a surprise when the PC started microing and pulling back the marines at the front that were being hit by my slow lings and absolutely tore them apart. I didn’t know wether to laugh or cry lol. I ended up having to quickly queue up some more zerglings, started morphing two spinal colonies and had to pull some drones off mining to remedy the situation and prevent any further blamaging experiences.
The PC also sends its workers away to another base if they are attacked or pulls them to help defend if it deems it neccesary. It micros it’s marines and some combat units, it spends its money fast and effectively on a solid and good choice of units to counter what it’s scouted its opponent is doing and doesn’t spend it idly anymore on 6-7 cannons, bunkers or colonies and in the strangest and most useless places to boot. Also when a PC is losing a battle it will try to retreat what units are remaining and salvage what is left of the situation.
Oh, and don’t be surprised when a PC proxies you or pulls out some cliffplay. I know, exciting isn’t it?
A few things of interest to make mention of as well is that if you attack an opponent with a worker unit before it has any attack units itself it won’t pull all the workers off minerals anymore which you can then lead on a while goose chase all across the map till the end of all creation. Another thing is that a PC which has it forces blocked by a wall will make an evaluation of the circumstances and then either pull its units back or tries to force its way through the wall by attacking the buildings. You won’t see 40 zealots dancing idly in front of your two supply depot plus barracks walloff anymore when playing one vs seven Computers. The 300 challenge just got a whole lot tougher.
2.4.3 Gather unto me my fellows and stand tall to weather the comming storm!
One of the changes in SC2 compared to SC is rally points. Not just the little tweaks made to the functioning of normal building exit rally points but also to the unit end of the rally command. The two smaller changes are that zerg hatcheries, lairs and hives have two different rally points. One set for the drones, and another for the remainder of the units. This obviously to compensate for automining and to implement the mechanic in a satisfying way for the Zerg compared to the other two races.
The other change is a bit more dubious and influential and concerns the fact that units do not exit their buildings anymore under the “move” command but with the “attack-move” command with the exception of worker units or units that lack an attack command. This obviously has some pros and some cons. The pros seem to be that you won’t randomly lose units anymore without them at least fighting back if you have a poorly placed rally point or are microing really hard in your base while defending and can’t or forget to pay attention to your newly built units and where they are going.
This also creates the fact that once you have engaged an enemy or breached his initial defenses for example you can just hotkey control group select all your hatcheries or gateways at once, rally them all into the fight or that breach and queue up 100 zerglings or 20 zealots at once and then proceed to watch them all race attack-moving straight into that breach or fight without any control of your part. This is obviously rediculous in just so many ways and one of my two prime problems with SC2 and the new mechanics. These are this new attack-move command to rallying units together with its other sibling that involves exciting a building with orders other then the “move” command, namely “harvest” and the whole auto-mining mechanic which both just make my hairs stand on end. Units need to do what they are told to do when they are told to do it, and in doing so should require an actual command from the player. There shouldn’t be as many implementations in SC2 as possible to deduct from possible player imput to actually and actively control the game personally. Stop taking control out of the players hands! Starcraft always has been a game with a large real time and physical component to it which I and practically everyone I know experiences as an integral part to starcraft gameplay and experience.
Let alone the fact that the more control is taken out of the players hands the less room there is for players to differentiate themselves from eachother and to display skill at the game. Let starcraft remain starcraft. It’s good to make a game more accessible to newer players but it should never ever deduct from the room for progamers and dedicated players to differentiate themselves from oneanother and to show and devellop their skills at the game. Do not oversimplify this game by taking everything out of a players hands! I cannot stress that enough, it’s my biggest beef with SC2 and so far there has been very little to complain but what there is to complain about is absolutely terrible.
The negative part of this new mechanic, and which is comparatively minor to the previously stated pros, is for that units that emerge from a building and have an attack-move command will now immediately turn and attack anything that is attacking the building they were produced from. You might say, great, I thought this was one of the pros you just mentioned. Well in some scenarious it is, but in others its far from. Let me try and illustrate with an example.
One game I had at WWI I went tripple hatch zerg and placing both additional hatches at one of my naturals to immediately kick off from a three base economy to tackle my protoss opponent played by one of my friends. I then found out about the whole units exit a building under a “attack-move” command instead of the “move” command in a bad way when I found a cannon firing at my second natural hatchery from a cliff overlooking my second natural. Any unit built from that hatchery while it was under fire would as soon as it finished morphing immediately try and attack the the cannon that could reach the hatchery. If I didn’t manually select and move the newly produced units (Zerglings in this specific case.) away from the hatchery and cannons they would one or two at a time depending on the rate at which the unit is produced try and round that cliff to get at the cannons and subsequently die the moment they spawned. If you didn’t pay attention for a few seconds your units would just suicide instead of just taking that single hit while moving away to the rally point. This was incredibly annoying and later on I talked to Idra about it and we both had the same frustrating experience with this mechanic. It brings back again the point that units should do what they are told to do by players when they are told to do it. A produced unit is told to rally somewhere, not to attack something let alone attack anything it encounters on the way.
I’ll finish my part about rally points and the problems surrounding them with a small positive note about a rally point change. This is that units actually exit the building where they are produced from the side the rally point is at. This means that you can now wall off that choke with two gateways no matter if you spawned at 6 or 12 on the map. Where your dragoons in the original SC would accordingly spawn right beneath your gateways and possibly be blocked inside your base or be on the outside of your base and free to attack according to your position, they won’t be having anymore of that in SC2. In SC2 units won’t just blindly spawn beneath your production facility anymore, and as such dictate part of your buildingplacement, but if you set your rally point above that gateway your stalkers and zealots will spawn above the gateway rather then below it no matter how the building is arrayed. This is a great way to even out certain positional imbalances and leaves room for more optimized buildingplacement and the subsequent advantages that brings regardless of the players spawning point.
2.5 The bad, the worse and the worst.
When I went over to WWI I had an opinion about MBS, automining and everything that surrounds it before I even touched it. I mean, who doesn’t? Before I went to Paris I was part of the big pack of MBS haters and part of the same group that coincidentally thought auto-mining was bad but not that big of a deal. So it came as a bit of a surprise, not for me but for many others as well that after actually playing the game MBS wasn’t the biggest itch on the back of SC2 but automining was.
2.5.1 The bad.
So there it was, I could now officially bind more then one building to my hotkey control groups and not only that, I could smart queue units without ever actually seeing them. Was it everything I expected? Sadly, yes and there isn’t that much more to be said about it then there already has been said thousands of times by thousands of people. MBS is bad, why? Well very simply put because it derives from the spirit of starcraft. Starcraft has always been a game with a big part of its gameplay consisting of the “real-time” part from “RTS” and accordingly has a relatively large physical aspect to getting the most out of your game. One of the charms from the original SC was that it was impossible to play a technically perfect game, simply because one cannot be everywhere at the same time. Players had to make decisions about how to spend their time and prioritize between micro and macro at crucial points in the game. SC2 might not allow for a technically perfect game but it most certainly seems to be trying its hardest to make it possible. Why is this bad you’d say? Because if there can be something as a perfect game or near perfect game that would mean several things, most importantly there would be a capped out skill level to certain aspects of the game. Secondly it would mean yet another, and this one being the largest, reduction to potential player differentiation in the game.
I’m well aware that game macro is alot more then just producing your units in a timely fashion. It envellops the whole of player resource management, like putting your workers to work, spending your resources, expanding effectively and in a timely fashion. It’s a large part gamesense but most of all it is direct player resource management. Spending that cash, constructing those buildings and producing those units and the more the merrier. MBS takes control of the game out of players hands, the amounts of actions per minute MBS reduces is incredible, not even to mention the amount of time saved screenscrolling to wherever you need to be to actually queue up those units. Macro really becomes alot easier with just having to press one hotkey bind and then just queue up whatever you want to where ever you want it because you can just set a group rally point for all those production facilities with the single click of your mouse. All this really leaves is the part of gamesense, but will that be enough? I’m afraid it won’t.
2.5.2 The worse.
Automining, the little brother of the new whole “attack-move” when exiting a building to rally point command. Except this time it’s not “attack-move” but “harvest” and its at least as ugly as its sibling. It just does what its name tells you. You select your production facility with the capability of producing worker units and then set that (worker-)rally point on a mineral patch or vespene gas extraction facility of your choice. Then watch to your growing amazement as how to every little procuced industrious worker heads over straight towards said rallypoint and proceed to get to work to further the benefit of your thriving machine of war.
Sounds great doesn’t it?
Shame it’s bloody terrible. It’s the same story as with rally points and with MBS, its just total and utter rape of the original starcraft spirit and gameplay style. The amount of time this saves you as a player and the amount by whitch it improves your resource aquisition is just mindboggling. Even progamers, especially in lategame and in complex action packed periods can’t handle putting every worker immediately to work as soon as it finishes. Spread this out over the period of a 20 minute game with dozens of workers produced and we’re talking hundreds if not thousands of minerals here. They might have reduced the amount of minerals yielded per aquisition but with automining and the new and improved unit pathing you’ll be drowning in more minerals then you’ve ever seen. The way this simplifies the game and time it takes to tend your economy is just plain terrible.
Just as with MBS this derives so much from the possible things a player can spend his time and attention on to demonstrate skill and devellop a personal style. Removing control from a player at this scale and on these critical points in gameplay and gamestyle differentiation is just terrible design with an E-sport in mind.
2.5.3 The worst.
This is where it all comes together, the new mechanics by themselves are already terror inspiring for anyone familiar with what made SC such a great and competative game thanks to the endless amount of room it left for players to differentiate themselves from eachother. But by combining these mechanics and viewing the way they synergize the total picture it creates is one of absolute devastation in certain parts of the original startcraft gameplay experience.
To sum it all up:
- You have 8 hatcheries spread around the map, you select all of them with 1 push of a button; - You then proceed to press S to select all larvae of all your hatcheries; - You then proceed to queue up whatever amount of units in whatever combination you desire; - You then engage the enemy with your army and put the rally point right in the middle of the fighting; - Then proceed to control your army while all your drones hatch and immediately get to work, and while all spawning reinforcements immediately head over to the fight where they immediately join in the attack thanks to the attack-move rally command.
Say you were sloppy and had 3 larvae at every hatchery/lair you posessed at that point in time. This results in a amazing total of 27 actions to achieve the desired results from all 5 steps compared to 24 actions just for starters in SC just to achieve the first 2 before mentioned steps instead of the two required there (8 screen moves, 8 hatchery selects, 8 larvae selects). You can see I don’t even have to mention the amount of time, player imput and screen scrolling it would require to then subsequenty match the unit production, place the correct rally points, putting the finished drones to work and making sure all your reinforcements arrive as soon as possible in the most desirable place and join in the fight to prove the contrast I’m trying to scetch here. After this I won’t even have to go into the subject of building construction queueing where one scv or probe can just be commanded to construct any amount of buildings without ever having to return your attention to it as a player.
The oversimplification of macromanagement in SC2 is just a big black oozing tumor on an otherwise incredible game so far. The game requires some serious technical surgery at this point in time if it wants to match its predecessors succes in E-sports based on just game mechanics alone.
Player differentiation is what makes or breaks any competative sport. A game should allow for players to individualize themselves compared to others and break apart from the main pack. MBS, and with it auto-mining and the new rally point command, doesn’t just deduct directly from the possibility for players to differentiate themselves from the competition by demonstrating the difference in skill, but it also indirectly affects player differentiation by removing a whole aspect of the game by the oversimplification of macro. Players differentiate themselves not just from other players by their difference in skill, but they also individualise themselves by their playstyle. Players like ILOVEOOV, FORGG and many other for example are known for their macro-focussed style of play. With the introduction of the new macro mechanics such a huge part of game macro will be oversimplified that it just heralds the end of this kind of players before SC2 has even been released. Again this flows from the simple fact that a technically perfect game of SC is impossible and forces players to make decisions and set priorities which not only determines their skill on a strategic and physical level but also determines their style of play. With the introduction of the new macro mechanics we will see a great reduction is possible playstyles and it will impose a great strain on the possible variety of player identities and styles compared to the original. These are things to concider when thinking about SC2’s future as an E-sport. People aren’t just fans of Pusan, July or Boxer because they are protoss, zerg and terran players respectively but most of all because of the creative, innovative and just unique style of play they bring to the table.
Sure the original SC had some quirks and problems that needlessly make gameplay unpredictable or even annoying, especially for the newer and less skilled players. Changes like resources being spent the moment you command a worker to build a building instead of when it actually starts the construction is just great and really smoothes out gameflow and removes little annoyances for alot of players. But with the design of a future E-Sport in mind Blizzard has to be careful not to inflict mortal damage to the professional level of gameplay while trying to cure some infant diseases at the lower level of gameplay.
Sadly at this point in time even with all the promise that just bursts from the mapdesigns, the units, the visuals, the new game options and a host of other things that make me just thrilled and giddy like a child on christmas eve to play SC2, I see the new macro mechanics as a serious threat to the success and lifespan of SC2 as a competative sport.
Luckily there at least appear to be ways to cure or at least soothe really big problems like this with rather minor changes. The best and easiest way in my opinion to help cure the bulk of the issues with the new macro mechanics mentioned above is to simply change all exit to rally point commands back to “move”. It seems like a nice middle-way solution between curing and inflicting as well. Simply no attack-move or harvest commands upon rallying. MBS would still make alot of things simpler but it would remove the fact that the AI is doing so many things in the players stead and take the need for players to actively command and control their units out of their hands. It would also force alot more screenscrolling on the player part and make sure the physical and high paced nature of the game (Not just for the action but for the player as well!!) is preserved and with it the essence of the original game and a booming potential for a succesful E-sport.
2.6 Paper, rock scissors?
Hard counter, soft counters, what’s it gonna be? It’s been a part of the discussion about SC2 for a long time now as from the moment the protoss were introduced ages ago it appeared there was a hard counter system in the game.
Well rest assured it felt pretty much like SC. This is partly because all units are relatively fast and have a relatively high damage output compared to the amount of hitpoints they have bar some exceptions. This is in a game where single battles or at least a single units lifespan in that battle are relatively short. Compare this to a game like WC3 where the armor and upgrade system is totally different and units have a relatively low damage output compared to the amount of hitpoints they have. Due to longer periods of combat and the longer lifespan of a single unit this results in more time for counters and bonusses to effectively display themselves. This means that if a unit in SC2, if controlled well, is perfectly capable of alot more in a much shorter period of time then it would initially seem to compared to units in a game like WC3. Firebats are pretty much a hard counter vs zerglings but if zerglings flank and are controlled well a couple of firebats even with medics can be dead before they even get that second shot off.
I was discussing this with a friend of mine who had it in his mind that the game was imbalanced because army composition X would be unbeatable by army composition Y. This is naturally short sighted and no way to approach balance because in a game like SC and its successor SC2 there comes a whole lot more looking around the corner when it comes to approaching issues like this.
For example, armies don’t just randomly spawn, they, like their size and composition, are the result of that unique way how that single game played itself out till that point in time. Also unit quality isn’t the sole redeeming virtue of units in SC but their quantity and upgrades as well! A unit has to be valued in the context of its accessibility resource as well as gameflow wise. I mean army X might always lose to army Y but in the meanwhile player X might have 5 bases and as such will replenish his army alot faster then player Y can who has been playing off just two bases. Army X will lose to army Y yes, but before army Y will be back at full strength and composition player X will have rolled in loads of reinforcements till player Y’s forces buckle under the pressure and get destroyed.
Most ideal counters simply aren’t always available at the optimum point in time or available in sufficient quantity due to pletora of reasons to be that single rock hard counter to a certain unit or army composition an enemy has. This even leaves the whole player control over his units out of the equasion (vults with mines vs goons, compared to attack moving vults vs goons anyone?). This also creates a dynamic gameflow between the several races as there is a dynamic of interchanging periods of army dominance (Examples from SC are the arrival of observers and arbiters PvT, medics and science vessels TvZ or lurkers and defilers ZvT.) depending on how the game played itself out and how players used those moments to their advantage.
As long as there aren’t any “uber units” in SC2, namely units which are massable in a proper game without a clear counter unit or combination thereof, the game will always result in a mix of units fighting a mix of units. This results directly from the fact that periods of gameplay flow over in one another and that not all units are available in all periods of gameplay. Add to that the variations in available resources to all players and the completed upgrades at different points in time during the resolution of the game (With the influence of individual player control and micro as icing on the cake.) and there just is no telling which units are available at what point in time, at what individual strength and in the required quantity to be effective.
All in all SC2 seemed to be a really dynamic game with several strategies and subsequent army composition choices available to every race. This while leaving room for creative strategies should result in a dynamic and interesting game to play and hopefully to watch as well.
From this also clearly flows that individual unit balance and racial balance cannot be discussed on paper. The game really needs to be played to find out the strenghts and weaknesses of each unit and each race by their actual accessibility and usefulness during actual gameflow. Unit concepts and abilities need to be pretty much clear before Blizzard wraps up their Alpha but individual statistics are better left for Beta when players can actually get the most out of the game and see how everything actually performs in a real game before proceeding to fine tune racial balance issues.
3 The Beef.
During my playing of the game and especially while discussing it afterwards with various friends and community members a couple of things just kept comming up in every conversation about SC2. Below I’ll try and share some of my views about a selection of these topics which I found to be ones that actually mattered to the game instead of being just personal preference.
3.1 Condoms vs abortion.
In other words the problem that is as old as man itself, prevention versus having to deal with the consequences. This was one of the things I surprisingly heard noone else about during my whole stay in Paris and during the discussions afterwards about the SC2 build we played there. What I mean with this is that in the build we played at WWI I found myself severely limited if not totally incapable of actually preventing an opponent from doing certain things or preventing his execution of certain strategies without severely gimping myself along the way. Each time I was stuck with having to deal with the consequences of certain types of harass or assault while I saw them comming a mile away and couldn’t stop him from doing it anyway.
This really made me miss one unit above all, the scourge. Let me explain why.
There were for example no efficient ways of dealing with drops and actually preventing them from reaching their destination before they reached it let alone succesfully unloaded. I found myself generally incapable of sniping observers and nomads to kill their stealth detection or destroying medivac dropships before they dropped or finishing off that phase prism before it could deploy and warp-in a dozen or more units into my base. In SC if someone wanted to drop you as zerg for example you had scourges to destroy that shuttle or dropship before it got there. You had scourges to take out that critical observer or science vessel and versus a protoss recall terrans could deploy lockdowns and EMPs. These were all ways to defeat certain powerful moves your opponent could make or take out those critical units to slow him down. In SC2 there just are no ways to for example prevent a phase-prism from flying to the edge of your base and then proceeding to instantly warp-in several units right into your base with the exception of having a sizable army of air units capable of destroying it before it can succesfully do it. As a player you are just forced to move back your army to deal with the units that will be warping in or the dropships that will be unloading unless you invested heavily into air to air units (Which especially as zerg is a total joke in the build we played at WWI.).
I feel this to be a terrible devellopment in the game and which really makes me miss scourges most of all because while playing zerg there just felt to be a huge niche for mobile and above all effective anti-air defense. Not being able to snipe those dropships and phase-prisms to prevent your opponent from invading your base, not being able to take out those observers and nomads to make the enemy be more aware again of burrowed and stealthed units and to bolster the effectiveness of lurkers, infestors and other burrowed units is a big deal. Players their gameplans are strongly influenced if not dictated by certain of their opponents moves simply because there is no way for them to prevent it. This in my opinion needs to change.
Bring back scourges to help defend vs certain cheese and snipe those units. Give reapers an upgradable mine which overloads mechanical units their electrics for a certain period of time like lockdown used to so terrans can effectively defend vs offensive warp-ins inside their base without having to pull back their entire army or having to construct a large amount of air to air units and be forced into a heavy resource investment or certain style of play simply because there is no other efficient way to counter what your opponent is doing. I’m strongly of opinion that there need to be introduced several units and abilities per race which allow for players to effectively deal with certain strategies and harass and prevent their opponents from forcing their hands with every move they make.
Players should be able to foil their opponents plans and prevent them from succeeding in a efficient manner so they can play their own game and style. They shouldn’t be stuck with purely having to deal with the consequences of their opponents actions. A lockdown type of spell for terran and bringing back scourges or a scourge-like unit for the zerg would go a very long way of being an effective way of dealing with this issue. Plus it would provide zerg with a possible good counter vs collossi and protoss cliffplay which at this point in time zerg hasn’t got a good answer to.
Just imagine playing ZvT and ZvP without scourges for example, how would you deal with observers, vessels, shuttle harass and dropships?
3.2 I’m sorry baby, I didn’t intend to! I swear!
Design principles mean absolutely nothing in practise. You can have all the intentions and principles you want during your design process influencing and guiding you for example with units like the terran reaper and the terran jackal but if it doesn't fit in the gameflow you can forget about all your design plans for the unit. That doesn’t mean its a bad or useless unit, it just means it won’t be used to fill its intended role. This because you don't just "make that unit in a wishful amount and put them into play at a time of choice" which it was designed around. You need to get to that point where you can access them and when you do you better be able to support them and afford them or its all for naught anyway.
I again refer back to that discussion I had with a friend at WWI about how army X would always defeat army Y. I disagreed with him as I stated earlier because he just didn’t factor in all the game circumstances and variables. Things like unit positioning, terrain, completed upgrades, and most of all the fact that one of the two might have 5 bases and the other just 2 with an out of minerals running main. So good luck with your superior army when you kill his units and he kills half yours but he replenishes within 70 seconds before wiping out all your remaining stuff plus invading your only mining base while your collossus is still 5 sec away from even completing and your support units get swept away in a wave of green goo.
Playing the game has changed everyones opinions about it and it will yours too. So pretty please, with sugar on top, don't talk in absolutes about balance during this stage of the games design. Especially if you haven’t played it yet. All most people are going on is speculation based on "design intentions" and numerical data without context.
I'm sure there were great design intentions during the design process of SC for ghosts, scouts, battlecruisers, queens and valkyries but you hardly, if ever see them in a proper SC game. When push comes to show it's about accessibility in real gameflow, economic and otherwise, followed by succint performance during real games that determines a units worth and role. Not its design intentions or concept.
These design intentions, however noble they might be. They might make for something good to strive for during a design process but they are absolutely not an argument to how they actually function. And its analyses and critical reviews by people who actually tried to get the most out of the game and explore it gametechnical wise vs proper players that help the design process actually get to that point where design intentions are actually met by ingame performance of a unit or race as a whole.
SC2 needs a beta filled with people who try to get the most out of the game technical and strategical wise and who have the ability to properly express their experiences and help thinking along with the design process to find ways to improve upon that current design.
3.3 I can’t do it captain, I don’t have the power!
Concerning casters one thing has been the major change in this department compared to the game that preceeds it, namely smart casting. This means that when you have more then one caster selected and you order the group to cast a spell just one of them actually casts it at the designated area or target instead of all of them casting a psionic storm on the same point in space for example as was the case in SC. This added to the new pathing and clutter mechanics in SC2 have made the designers town down area of effect spells in effect and size to compensate. The current specific compensations implemented like those for psionic storm are far from perfect but it doesn’t matter much since these kind of specifics are more suited to be tweaked in the upcomming Beta.
The thing that did make me happy to discover though when playing SC2 at WWI was that there is no tab selecting between different kind of units in the same hotkey control group. So you cannot press your hotkey, and then proceed to tab between stalkers to have them blink, tab again to your high templar and smart cast their storms and hallucinations and then to round it all off tab to your nullifiers to cast some forcefields and reverse gravity that critical enemy unit. A player isn’t able to just put his medium sized army under one control group and be able to access all their individual abilities from there like its possible in WC3.
One thing I do really feel the need to make a point of is that the terrans have two real casters (The ghost and nomad.) when not counting the medivac just because it has energy and can heal. Compared to this the protoss have three real casters (The nullifier, high templar and the Mothership). Against this the zerg is kind of stuck on 1.5, the infestors are the only real caster unit for the zerg with the Queen being a more of a 0.25% caster and the overseer having energy and spawn changeling are another 0.25% caster. This leaves me that zerg would really do with a second real caster which would be more defense or utility orientated, preferably a flying one to which the overseer, already having energy, would be the obvious candidate.
Protoss seems to be the well rounded and most finished race in this matter, especially when it concerns the power of their spells. Hallucination for example with its new duration and not requiring an upgrade anymore was really strong with no way to differentiate between real units and hallucinations. For the terrans ghosts seems great great units as well, they provide support, excell in small scale combat, they can loan themselves for harassment and to top it all off they come well equipped as a caster. They bring EMP and snipe to the table while having cloak capability to increase their durability and defensive capabilities and to top it all off the ability to deploy a tactical nuclear missile. Contrary to this nomads seem to be lacking a clear form of identity which shows itself during the vast number of abilities it has numbered amongst it capabilities during the Alpha stage of the game up till now. I find their turret and spidermine abilities that it came equipped with at the build we played in Paris to be far from great or inspirational. Accordingly I hope to see some work done on the nomads abilities to make it not only more useful but also to give it a distinct personality such as the old science vessel had. The targetting drone ability I saw somewhere (It attaches to a target which then takes an additional 50% more damage for a short period of time.) seemed like a great 3rd ability for the nomad allthough it would seem to fit better on the ghost. Perhaps a trade of abilities with the ghosts EMP ability would be fitting solution here. At the moment the nomad is far from useless but what it brings to a fight, except offcourse for being a detector, but its two spells can use a good looking at and a subsequent rework or replacement.
There was and still is alot of dislike towards the queen. Personally I find it to be an original and cool unit, but they really need to keep that "heal" ability the way it was at WWI and that is that it functions on units as well as buildings. For the rest swarminfestation is nice ability that supplements the queen as a base defense unit and is a great versus drops and certain harass but nothing overly awsome. The last of the queens abilities, mutate larvae is a very interesting mechanic in my opinion and opens up a host of promising ideas but it really needs some tweaks to become actually usefull. I hope they keep it in the game at least to test for a while and see where it goes.
I’m so enthusiastic about the mutate larvae mechanic from the queen because any mechanic worth integrating in or basing your strategies around while taking direct player control and imput while adding to a players resource management skills for it to function, let alone should figure heavily into any good zerg’s larvae managemanent (Which is the quintessential centre of any zerg player his play.) gets my heartfelt support and has me cheer for it as loud as I can.
I still wish the queen, with such a promising design intention, get a bit more personality. Thats why I was so disappointed when I found out it wasn’t the queen anymore that spawns the zerg defensive structures. I know alot of people disagree with me on this point but its just a personal preference and a design which I really liked alot. The current mechanic, which is the same as from the original SC is a perfectly fine mechanic which functions just fine and which I have no criticism about at all, I just like the alternative option alot as well and I hope to see it fully tested before it is permanently discarded. This has nothing to do with bad design or possible balance complications though, it just felt like a breath of fresh wind for the zerg.
Infestors their infestation and disease were powerfull spells when I put them into play at WWI but dark swarm felt really weak without consume. This is to say though that we don’t know yet if zerg needs something like darkswarm to be able to stand up against other the races, terran especially, in the endgame phase like they did in SC. Beta will shed more light on that. The removal of irradiate from the game with nothing but snipe as its successor is obviously of great influence, allthough indirectly, on the power of a caster unit like the infestor. I was glad to hear that Blizzard is experimenting with several builds surrounding the consume mechanic in various forms, some builds its not implemented in at all, in others it functions exactly like it did in the original and in yet another it is a variant where infestors slowly consume a certain unit over a small period of time and then gain an amount of energy dependant on the type of unit consumed. I’m curious to see how this will turn out but it will have to wait until Beta when a final conclusion on subjects and issues such as this can be reached.
All in all casters and their abilities still need a quite bit of a looking in my opinion. Some just need their spell effects tweaked in beta, others need to be upgraded to full casters while one or two just need some tweaks to give them some more personality.
3.4 Better, faster, stronger.
SC2 uses the same basic upgrade system as the original. This system consists of two parts, the first being the flat bonus global armor and weapon upgrades for certain types of units just as in SC, and the second consisting of a variety of different upgrades per race to improve certain units, give them new abilities or most importantly to keep them viable throughout the game. Both these concepts got taken from the original game to SC2 in the build we played and it felt smoothe and natural to the experienced SC player in how upgrades fitted into the game, the roles they played and in general what to expect from them.
I know Blizzard has been experimenting with alternative weapon and armor upgrade systems, especially for the zerg but I feel that they should just stick with what they know in this department. It’s just a simple, clear mechanic that functions without problems. If they revert back to strange unit dependant upgrades like they did before, players will end up with 0 / 0 upgrades tier 3 or higher units by the time they gain access to them. This while units such as ultras live or die by the fact that they already have that 2 armor upgraded (As Chill remarked so pointedly a while ago.) by the time you unlock their technology and they become available to the player. Its a tried a proven upgrade system and messing with it seems to create problems the moment you start implementing changes and as such seems to be better off left alone.
The second part is one of the trademarks of starcraft gameplay. The presence of simple early game move and fire units with upgrades to keep them effective throughout the whole course of the game. This concept got brought over to SC2 as well and the old as well as the new units have got some new or changed upgrades to ensure their viablity. These are upgrades such as the new riot shields (+10 hp.) for the terran marines, increased movement speed for banelings, increased regeneration rate for roaches or spellcasters that gain access to new spells that can be upgraded upon reaching a higher level of technology such as ghosts which have spells and abilities that cannot yet be used or upgraded when they themselves can already be produced without the completion of a higher level structures such as the starport.
With the return of upgrades such as the iconic adrenal glands and stimpack combined with new upgrades such as the zealot charge and stalker blink I’m sure we’ll see a large variety of units battle their way through various periods of gameplay.
Especially the new zerg burrow upgrade stood out for me. In the build we played it was so easily accessible you just had no reason not to take it, I mean 30 seconds research time while costing 50 minerals and 50 gas? Especially since the strategies it opened up were just incredible. I could write a whole other article just about some of the games I played, the banelings ambushes I pulled off, the roachburrowdance I came up with during my games versus terran and many many more. Early game burrow is just so incredibly powerful, burrowed banelings are the new hold lurkers and then some.
One final small thing to remark is the curious choice made by blizzard to integrate certain SC upgrades into the basic unit in SC2. The first thing that comes to mind are the various range upgrades from SC that aren’t back in SC2. Marines, hydralisks and stalkers now come straight onto the battlefield with increased ranged compared to SC without the need for an additional upgrade. Especially marines performance is affected by this change as it greatly improves their early game strength in dealing with zealots and zerglings.
3.5 Ok, who farted?
One of the things I saw frequently mentioned by people who played SC2 at WWI which I noticed myself as well was that detection seemed to come slower and be less available in SC2 then it used to be in SC. Now a bit of time has passed I feel I am forced to re-evaluate my opinion about this a bit.
When looking closely at SC2 the amount of detection available in the game hasn’t really changed that much compared to the original. Terrans still have radar towers, the comsat station and the nomad for detection, protoss have their cannons and the observer while the zerg is the only race that seems to be actually affected. The zerg overlords are no detectors anymore, and it is the only race that didn’t have a structure with detection in the build we played at WWI. The sole detection capability from the zerg came from the zerg overseer which is the upgraded version of the overlords. This resulted in no problems for me during the games I played at the WWI but I was still sturprised there was no static detection available for the zerg. As such I can only hope to see the return of the shrieker upgrade which used to become available for creep tumors upon the completion of an evolution chamber and which allowed creep tumors to be upgraded into passive detectors.
Objectively seen the amount of detection available hasn’t changed in any significant way compared to SC with the exception of the zerg. The feeling that stuck with everyone after actually playing SC2 was not that there wasn’t enough detection but just that it came too late. If this is actually the case and that there really is a lack of proper detection during certain phases of the game can only be tested by extensive playing and as such seems an issue better left for Beta. For the moment I will remain with the opinion that people just were playing excitedly and offensively and slacked off on proper scouting their opponent to see what he was doing and actually taking sufficient defensive precautions or making sure their build integrated a certain availability of detection.
4 Blablabla
All I have to say in conclusion is that control shouldn’t be taken from players hands, map balancing a game over a basic ground level of balance is the way to go with and that players should have sufficient room to differentiate themselves skillwise as well as stylewise. The game is for the rest incredibly fun to play with great clear cut visuals and awsome sound effects (Those that were actually implemented.)
I’m sure it will be a great game, the question is just how great it’s going to be. Seeing the distance the game design has already come from when it was first announced I have alot of faith that it’s going to be a great ride regardless and high hopes that it will make an entertaining competative sport. But to actually get there and to create a sequel to SC in every way that the original SC has been alot of things will still need to change they aren’t quite there yet.
A few loose things I felt the need to mention:
- Reavers are so much more exciting to use let alone see in action then Collossi. - Nydus worms are really cool but need some serious looking at because while it is an incredibly powerful offensive and defensive tool in the zerg arsenal it comes up way short for the zerg as an effective way to deal with cliffplay such as stalker and collossi use or a siege tank drop. - Seeing marine marauder in the hands of a scrub or in the hands of a progamer like Sea[Shield] is just incomparable and shows how easily you can get a very wrong idea about the strengths of certain units and combinations until you have seen them in the hands of a capable player. - I had no beef at all with the new and changed selection limit, I even really enjoyed it myself. (Not surprisingly as a zerg player!) - Crawlers are so cool. - Banshees and Banelings are sooooooo cool and sooooo good. - Burrow is the shit. - That the range of radar towers is visible as a jagged line for your opponent is just terrible and needs to go. It’s just so artificial and totally deducts from the strength and idea behind the building and its use. - The whole Reactor/Techlab mechanic for terran production is really cool and functioned really well in the games I played and watched. Kudos to Blizzard on this one. - Not just mutalisks but all air units handle like oiltankers and need some seriously looking at. I hope Blizzard will finally succeed at breaking their engine to bring back some of the good old stacking and dancing. - Carrier that handle like oiltankers and don’t stack are actually pretty damn terrible compared to the SC version while they are statistically the same or close to. - Warp-rays should NOT be able to keep firing while moving. Their beam should just reset when they move. Else there is just no escaping or microing against them while they continue to do sick damage. They are intended to destroy buildings, blockades and capital ships, not chase down anything that moves. - I hope Blizzards expands on game observing like they did in WC3 and will introduce specific observer slots in SC2 and continue to expand upon new and useful tools and options for observers to use during a game. Especially with an eye on the game as a possible E-Sport where spectators like to see alot of things about the players and what they are doing. For example seeing their supply limit, their amounts of resources or as in a replay see what is being produced or upgraded at a building. - “The swarm” units that spawn when a zerg building are destroyed are so cute <3. - Paris was great and so were all the community members that I met there! Hope to do it again sometime! - Sorry to keep you all waiting so long for this treatise and the spelling mistakes didn’t bother you too much. I just couldn’t be arsed to reread it all AGAIN lol! I hope you all who actually did read it all (Which I expect to be absolutely noone haha.) enjoyed reading it!
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Netherlands19124 Posts
Wow it actually fit into one post.
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I disagree.
edit: Also, I found a typo.
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Nyovne knows what he's talking about!
He beat Sea in SC2... twice!
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is awesome32252 Posts
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..... dude i actually read it all.
I disagree with your views on auto-surround though, if blizz is gonna simplify macro, at least KEEP MICRO.
How fast was the Nomad?
and lastly, im surpirsed u barely mentioned banelings :D. You seem to love them quite alot.
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United States20661 Posts
oh holyshitfuck
Are you the man who actually took notes? Props.
When I played I was originally jotting stuff down on a legal pad - got to three pages before going "fuck, this game is too addicting" and chucking it away entirely.
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Netherlands19124 Posts
On July 21 2008 11:13 Ra.Xor.2 wrote: ..... dude i actually read it all.
I disagree with your views on auto-surround though, if blizz is gonna simplify macro, at least KEEP MICRO.
How fast was the Nomad?
and lastly, im surpirsed u barely mentioned banelings :D. You seem to love them quite alot. I didn't really see it as auto surround, units spread out around a target much smoother and much faster then in SC but its still faster and more efficient to manually control your units. This with the sole exception being zealots with the charge upgrade. I wet my pants every time I saw a decent sized group of them charging at something lol. (unless it was a pack of banelings and they werent on hold position lawl)
Hehe well I do love banelings so much but its just no real use to review individual units, spells and a general racial overview with so many things changing all the time. But yeah banelings are my #1 unit by far! :D
Such a review is more for the upcomming Beta when its well underway.
Nomads weren't that fast but I can't really attach a value to it by comparing it to a unit in SC. I just built them once myself and only saw them used against me in a single game as well.
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Netherlands19124 Posts
On July 21 2008 11:18 Last Romantic wrote: oh holyshitfuck
Are you the man who actually took notes? Props.
When I played I was originally jotting stuff down on a legal pad - got to three pages before going "fuck, this game is too addicting" and chucking it away entirely. Haha some, not many. When I got back home I just recollected all my thoughts and created a list of topics and random notes. Alot of them were about individual units and their statistics such as the new changeling for example.
I just felt it was useless to edit all those notes about them in the current stage of game design and leave it for Beta. Especially with the amount that has been said about them in the TL BWWI FE.
But yeah fuck SC2 was addicting, I mean I spent 17 hours or more playing it in 2 days and the rest running to and back from watching SC progames being played lol.
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tl;dr
j/k, nice post. It's one of the times I really hate being right in my predictions. Obviously they were gonna make pathing smarter, make uniform "edges" of buildings, and improve the AI. Graphically, we knew they could fix the coloring of units, and always cut out animations to make things more clear; I don't think anyone really worried about that. My worst worries were in fact the COMBINATION of MBS with auto-mine, and it sucks that you can confirm it's as bad as I thought it would be. Making a probe at 4 nexuses and having the last one made mine took 20 actions in BW (00pSELECTmine x4), and now it takes 2 (0p), including not having your screen ever away from your army/rally point. I can't believe they even added in attack-move-rally. Even a 4 minute all-in rush used to take SOME macro, but now you can devote 99% of your attention to micro while your additional units magically join the fight.
I'm really curious as to other people's opinions about the combination of the automated features and how they affect the challenge and the feel of the game.
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United States7166 Posts
holy cow... this is going to take me days to read. thanks nyovne i like your SC2 feedback
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Epic post. Will read on my lunch break.
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Great write up man, nice work. I didnt quite read it all tho!
Looking forward to playing the game. Hope they sort out the problems.
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LOL wowwww....... he was "creeping"?
Haven't read all of it but will do later on
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4492 Posts
LOL, that's me, I actually have proof, add me if you don't believe me.
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4492 Posts
Reading it tho, seems like all of you who have seen the game and have a more or less competitive gaming mind agree on the bad parts of the game. Now if only Blizzard would listen to our voices, instead of the thousands and thousands of newcomers who want pretty graphics and easy life... If only...
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On July 21 2008 12:50 Mynock wrote: Reading it tho, seems like all of you who have seen the game and have a more or less competitive gaming mind agree on the bad parts of the game. Now if only Blizzard would listen to our voices, instead of the millions and millions of dollars from newcomers who want pretty graphics and easy life... If only... Fixed.
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lol, this is going to take me a while ><
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Wow, I might have to bookmark this and come back, I didn't realize INSANELY LONG meant 'longer than my life'. Haha, I skimmed through a bit so far and it sounds interesting. Will definitely have to come back.
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On July 21 2008 13:14 SonuvBob wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2008 12:50 Mynock wrote: Reading it tho, seems like all of you who have seen the game and have a more or less competitive gaming mind agree on the bad parts of the game. Now if only Blizzard would listen to our voices, instead of the millions and millions of dollars from newcomers who want pretty graphics and easy life... If only... Fixed.
The money is actually quite negligible considering they make like 100 million a month off of WoW. Also factoring in the fact that most of those "masses of noobs" will more than likely buy the game regardless of how it plays as long as it is flashy enough for a month of playing, and they have no reason to cater to them beyond graphically.
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On July 21 2008 13:34 LonelyMargarita wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2008 13:14 SonuvBob wrote:On July 21 2008 12:50 Mynock wrote: Reading it tho, seems like all of you who have seen the game and have a more or less competitive gaming mind agree on the bad parts of the game. Now if only Blizzard would listen to our voices, instead of the millions and millions of dollars from newcomers who want pretty graphics and easy life... If only... Fixed. The money is actually quite negligible considering they make like 100 million a month off of WoW. Also factoring in the fact that most of those "masses of noobs" will more than likely buy the game regardless of how it plays as long as it is flashy enough for a month of playing, and they have no reason to cater to them beyond graphically.
But then, as it's Blizz, they have their image to care about.. So, they don't want to make a game that only caters to the hardcore fans, one which casual gamers wouldn't pick up for lack of skill. Sad, but true, SC2 could go down as one of the biggest flops ever.
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The campaign will satisfy the casual gamers don't worry.
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It may have been a long read, but definitely an enlightening one, props to you big guy. Good job.
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I was wondering about the new attack-move rally point, in that since units will automatically fire/chase after anything on their path to the rally, if that could be used to lure a fresh supply of troops off w/ a couple of burrowed lings, or a couple of stray zealots, and if you weren't paying attention, would actually hinder your reinforcements from getting to the fight.
I guess my question would be "How far off do units chase after other units when they're being rallied."
That could introduce some interesting 'cute' plays, although I would prefer the old move only rally as well...
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Live2Win
United States6657 Posts
On July 21 2008 12:39 Mynock wrote: LOL, that's me, I actually have proof, add me if you don't believe me. lol that sounds like something from the facebook thread!
Op: EPIC POST! I will definately look into this later, I have a paper to write due in 6 hours so right now I can't spare the time .
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hmm
the computer AI sounds amazing holy shit
have you figured out how it plays if you manage to kill its scouts? or if you proxy dt tech in a place it doesnt scout, will it not get detection? etc
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Hong Kong20321 Posts
wow insanely long but very very informative post nvyone lol my eyes are coming out of their sockets now brb1!!
<#
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Zurich15266 Posts
On July 21 2008 11:21 Nyovne wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2008 11:13 Ra.Xor.2 wrote: I disagree with your views on auto-surround though, if blizz is gonna simplify macro, at least KEEP MICRO. I didn't really see it as auto surround, units spread out around a target much smoother and much faster then in SC but its still faster and more efficient to manually control your units. This with the sole exception being zealots with the charge upgrade. I wet my pants every time I saw a decent sized group of them charging at something lol. (unless it was a pack of banelings and they werent on hold position lawl) I remember we talked about this and I guess you are right that microed units are still superior to "auto-surrounding" ones. However, what I really don't like is that this makes it nearly impossible to worker harass with melee units. I remember 2gating PvP and I killed a total of 3 probes :-(
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I read half of it and then skimmed lol im not sure how i feel about your support of smarter ai.
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MyLostTemple
United States2921 Posts
i read the whole thing. good read
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CA10824 Posts
thanks for such an extensive review. really great!
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Wow, I almost read every single line of your post, good job it was very entertaning and informative! And thanks so much for 3.1 Condoms vs abortion. It's exactly what I said not too long ago about "offense over defense" but almost nobody believed me. Now that you're making it so clear people can't deny it anymore, something has to be done about it. Offense should never ever be more powerful than defense. Ever. EVER.
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On July 21 2008 17:22 zatic wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2008 11:21 Nyovne wrote:On July 21 2008 11:13 Ra.Xor.2 wrote: I disagree with your views on auto-surround though, if blizz is gonna simplify macro, at least KEEP MICRO. I didn't really see it as auto surround, units spread out around a target much smoother and much faster then in SC but its still faster and more efficient to manually control your units. This with the sole exception being zealots with the charge upgrade. I wet my pants every time I saw a decent sized group of them charging at something lol. (unless it was a pack of banelings and they werent on hold position lawl) I remember we talked about this and I guess you are right that microed units are still superior to "auto-surrounding" ones. However, what I really don't like is that this makes it nearly impossible to worker harass with melee units. I remember 2gating PvP and I killed a total of 3 probes :-( Haha, you guys gotta learn from this instead of seeing it as a hinderance.
Do it as you do probe harass, attack, if they pull of 10 workers from the line to attack you just run from them, when workers chase you they are not mining so that works just as well as killing them. Use the unit not being focused to attack, run when they change target etc, its not impossible to do and it completely stalls their economy.
Either way, I think that it was mostly that it was the surprice on how fast the workers could surround and not that its impossible to do anything about it.
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I forgot to mention one negative point about your post: then =/= than I'm not a native english speaker but even I know the difference, you should try and find those misspellings
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Great read, it actually matches with many of my preconceptions about the game.
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Nice read, i really enjoyed it even tough it was quite long.
On one hand we have such a great game that looks great and has all kinds of similaritys to the original, but then on the other hand we get so much stuff that just kill a vital part of this great starcraft expirience.
And i don't think it's about money. It's just about how different views clash each other. From a game designer / programmer point of view all these things make sense to me. I do understand with all the technology and expirience we have that it is only natural to implement these features.
To me this was allways the crunchpoint. What we want is a racecar, they want a luxurious mercedes benz with lots of horsepower. I want to control and feel every part of my machine while they developed these new technologies that are suppose to help me for a great ride. But it's no use to me on the racetrack. On the contrary, it takes away the magic.
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oh Nyovne you're fucking crazy :D
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Netherlands19124 Posts
On July 21 2008 13:34 LonelyMargarita wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2008 13:14 SonuvBob wrote:On July 21 2008 12:50 Mynock wrote: Reading it tho, seems like all of you who have seen the game and have a more or less competitive gaming mind agree on the bad parts of the game. Now if only Blizzard would listen to our voices, instead of the millions and millions of dollars from newcomers who want pretty graphics and easy life... If only... Fixed. The money is actually quite negligible considering they make like 100 million a month off of WoW. Also factoring in the fact that most of those "masses of noobs" will more than likely buy the game regardless of how it plays as long as it is flashy enough for a month of playing, and they have no reason to cater to them beyond graphically. Money is never ever negligible to shareholders and investors . No matter the amount.
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Netherlands19124 Posts
On July 21 2008 14:27 liosama wrote:Nice writeup Haha cool thanks <3.
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Netherlands19124 Posts
On July 21 2008 15:42 SenseofStar wrote: I was wondering about the new attack-move rally point, in that since units will automatically fire/chase after anything on their path to the rally, if that could be used to lure a fresh supply of troops off w/ a couple of burrowed lings, or a couple of stray zealots, and if you weren't paying attention, would actually hinder your reinforcements from getting to the fight.
I guess my question would be "How far off do units chase after other units when they're being rallied."
That could introduce some interesting 'cute' plays, although I would prefer the old move only rally as well... Yeah I guess, but it's just generally annoying and just bad bad game design for a competative game where units a) don't just do as they're told and b) are commanded by the AI.
But yeah theres obviously good things to every problem as well and this what you mentioned obviously would be one of them. Why I agree your positive look at it I guess we all think the other then "move" commands when exiting production are a terrible issue and needs to be dealt with .
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Netherlands19124 Posts
On July 21 2008 16:00 Live2Win wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2008 12:39 Mynock wrote: LOL, that's me, I actually have proof, add me if you don't believe me. lol that sounds like something from the facebook thread! Op: EPIC POST! I will definately look into this later, I have a paper to write due in 6 hours so right now I can't spare the time . Good luck, now I wrapped this one up I'm continueing on an article for a juridical magazine and my bachelor essay Q_Q.
I feel your pain!
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Netherlands19124 Posts
On July 21 2008 16:42 SpiritoftheTuna wrote: hmm
the computer AI sounds amazing holy shit
have you figured out how it plays if you manage to kill its scouts? or if you proxy dt tech in a place it doesnt scout, will it not get detection? etc Haha yeah I thought about that as well but I just played like 2 games vs the PC just to at least have it checked out. The highest level PC was actually pretty damned ass challenging one on one if it was one of your first few games. Some of my friends who are pretty damn as poor SC players got their asses repeatedly handed to them by the terran (highest difficulty level at WWI) AI. This while in SC they can take 2 on 1 or 3 on 2 pretty easily on most maps. They do know that game alot better though.
Would be really amazing to try and hidden tech and proxy the PC haha. Killing the scout, dunno if it has an effect but when you did it and he didnt see a building (at least that was the difference between game 1 and 2 that I played, no wall ramp with Z while I was T in the first game) he would send a second worker.
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Live2Win
United States6657 Posts
[15:01] < Naruto > I played a guy that was running around teh map like crazy, when I asked him what he's doing (I thought he dont know the map) he told me he's creeping.
omg that made me laugh so much
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Netherlands19124 Posts
On July 21 2008 21:12 iD.NicKy wrote: oh Nyovne you're fucking crazy :D Lawl hi Nicky :D.
/lick
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Netherlands19124 Posts
On July 21 2008 17:22 zatic wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2008 11:21 Nyovne wrote:On July 21 2008 11:13 Ra.Xor.2 wrote: I disagree with your views on auto-surround though, if blizz is gonna simplify macro, at least KEEP MICRO. I didn't really see it as auto surround, units spread out around a target much smoother and much faster then in SC but its still faster and more efficient to manually control your units. This with the sole exception being zealots with the charge upgrade. I wet my pants every time I saw a decent sized group of them charging at something lol. (unless it was a pack of banelings and they werent on hold position lawl) I remember we talked about this and I guess you are right that microed units are still superior to "auto-surrounding" ones. However, what I really don't like is that this makes it nearly impossible to worker harass with melee units. I remember 2gating PvP and I killed a total of 3 probes :-( Yeah there were three moments I noticed the new passive AI.
The first was when I couldn't drill my workers, which I luckily found out before I played my game against Kal else I would have been dicked.
The second was when my banelings didn't clutter and block eachother to fuck while trying to get to their targets like infested terrans and scourges do. (that lame blocking eachother and that moment of decelleration and "hesitation" before they hit sometimes)
And the third was when I had speed lings chasing down some zealots which he was retreating to his base. You know when in SC you have some speed lings running after another unit they just stop behind the unit and then start running again and then stop again and then start catching up again while hardly if ever actually hitting the unit? Well in SC2 they do hit it which makes chasing down retreating units alot easier but I didn't really mind. I mean the units are a crapload fast and they should hit the unit. It was just malfunctioning pathing and AI in SC that prevented them from doing the same. Don't really have beef with this one. I mean they just hit the unit a couple of times, they dont "auto surround" it or somthing as it keeps moving unless it runs itself half into a doodad or cliff.
On the subject of worker defense vs early harass, I actually found my workers to be a bit stronger vs zealots because there is just one or two of them and easily surrounded but alot weaker vs zerglings or marines. Not being able to drill is a real bitch, you can retreat your units alot less efficient and you cant do the drill/attack/drill/attack dance which was where the real strength lay in worker defense. When the marines were microed drones just wouldn't catch up due to the new increased range which marines start off with and vs zerglings they just took too long to get around all of them. I mean vs zergling harass in SC you could stack some workers and then trap a zergling or two and pretty much instantly kill it with some drones or probes of your own. Now the lings will just be getting hits in and you cant stack to defend while he will just pull out again when you try to move your targetted worker through your groups of mining workers.
I'm still of the opinion that the loss of stacking and drilling is a bigger loss to worker defense then the new more efficient pathing AI is a boost to it. I guess it depends alot vs which unit you are defending and especially in what quantity.
Ah well, time will tell when its played with extensively .
edit: Oh one more important note about that worker defense is that it really felt like they reduced the probe and drone attack range (aka from 1 back to 0). Which means they gotta get up close and personal like zerglings do isntead of being able to fire over one. This might explain why they actually all try to get as close to the unit as possible and in that process semi/wholly try to surround it.
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Netherlands19124 Posts
On July 21 2008 20:19 ForAdun wrote:I forgot to mention one negative point about your post: then =/= than I'm not a native english speaker but even I know the difference, you should try and find those misspellings Haha thanks I'll try, I already tried to disclaim it at the end. Cba anymore to actually reread the whole thing and then go in and edit it again haha.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
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Rallied units with attack-move does seem odd. It's probably the easiest thing to change though.
It seems the most common command to units are, move and attack-move. I don't know what the ratio is, I may even use attack-move more than standard move. There could even be a case for having attack-move as right-click and standard move with a hot-key. Dunno what should be the default as units leave buildings. I think both have pros and cons. Maybe make it toggle-able.
OT... I quite like the additional move commands in CnC3. I saw it take a lot of flack from ppl that wondered why their units didn't do what they wanted. I thought it worked well. If you wanted your tank to move to a back position, you could use "move" or "reverse". A lot of people used "move" and started crying when the tank actually made a turning circle driving closer to the enemy. haha. If you use reverse it literally reverses, keeping its front at the enemy and continues to fire as it moves back.
It's odd about not being able to tab through unit types in a control group. I hope that finds it's way in. I gather that you are pleased with this, personally i think it's crazy not to have it.
Shame to hear you argument against MBS and auto-mine amounted to "it is against the spirit of SC" or whatever that means.
"To sum it all up:
- You have 8 hatcheries spread around the map, you select all of them with 1 push of a button; - You then proceed to press S to select all larvae of all your hatcheries; - You then proceed to queue up whatever amount of units in whatever combination you desire; - You then engage the enemy with your army and put the rally point right in the middle of the fighting; - Then proceed to control your army while all your drones hatch and immediately get to work, and while all spawning reinforcements immediately head over to the fight where they immediately join in the attack thanks to the attack-move rally command."
This sounds bad, like all you do now is sit back and win. Well, shame your opponent also has the same functionality at his disposal. Are you just going to sit there and watch as the auto-armies fight it out? What is going to break this deadlock? Oh, that's right, skill. A finer and more subtle skill, still high APM, just allocated to other things more directly related to the battle, than the side-game of making units.
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On July 21 2008 17:22 zatic wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2008 11:21 Nyovne wrote:On July 21 2008 11:13 Ra.Xor.2 wrote: I disagree with your views on auto-surround though, if blizz is gonna simplify macro, at least KEEP MICRO. I didn't really see it as auto surround, units spread out around a target much smoother and much faster then in SC but its still faster and more efficient to manually control your units. This with the sole exception being zealots with the charge upgrade. I wet my pants every time I saw a decent sized group of them charging at something lol. (unless it was a pack of banelings and they werent on hold position lawl) I remember we talked about this and I guess you are right that microed units are still superior to "auto-surrounding" ones. However, what I really don't like is that this makes it nearly impossible to worker harass with melee units. I remember 2gating PvP and I killed a total of 3 probes :-( Don't the workers still have to get behind your zealot before they can surround it? You just need better reaction time in order to pull off harass effectively. You just need to focus your full attention to prevent the surround while wasting their mining time attempting to surround you. This can add a whole element of skill required for the harasser, rather than take away from the game. It will just take practice, or you can watch the Korean progamers do it.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
On July 21 2008 22:10 teacake wrote: This sounds bad, like all you do now is sit back and win. Well, shame your opponent also has the same functionality at his disposal. Are you just going to sit there and watch as the auto-armies fight it out? What is going to break this deadlock? Oh, that's right, skill. A finer and more subtle skill, still high APM, just allocated to other things more directly related to the battle, than the side-game of making units. Oh you mean like Warcraft 3? sure
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Awesome post. My eyes now hurt.
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wow! Nice work man.
Should be frontpaged imo. I actually got more out of this writeup then i did out of the 'official' TL one.
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Great writeup, I actually read the whole thing! I really appreciate all the time and effort you must have put into this post. Your writing was very clear and I felt that I got a good sense of the current state of SC2 even though I wasn't fortunate to attend BWWI. It's nice to see some of our worries may be assuaged by a little gameplay experience. Also, I agree that the attack-move rallying seems like more of a pain than a convenience in several situations.
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I read about 80% of your article and when i saw how much the rest 20% was my head startef hurting and I've stopped reading there. From what I've read I mostly agree with you, especially about AI overwriting player commands and the new -attack-move spawn command, that those things ARE REALLY BAD They should be fixed by making them as they were in brood war and give the player full control over the units!
I also agree that auto-mine should be removed as well as smart-cast.
MBS can stay if blizzard can find additional way to increase the macro that MBS removes, like the mutant larva thing, warp-gate thing and maybe something for the Terran.
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Sorry for the spam , but i got one question Nyo: - About the micro being too simple "Blink up , kill something, blink down". can you make a comparison to brood war micro please , i couldnt understand/figure very well ^^
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Sweden33719 Posts
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On July 21 2008 22:15 teamsolid wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2008 17:22 zatic wrote:On July 21 2008 11:21 Nyovne wrote:On July 21 2008 11:13 Ra.Xor.2 wrote: I disagree with your views on auto-surround though, if blizz is gonna simplify macro, at least KEEP MICRO. I didn't really see it as auto surround, units spread out around a target much smoother and much faster then in SC but its still faster and more efficient to manually control your units. This with the sole exception being zealots with the charge upgrade. I wet my pants every time I saw a decent sized group of them charging at something lol. (unless it was a pack of banelings and they werent on hold position lawl) I remember we talked about this and I guess you are right that microed units are still superior to "auto-surrounding" ones. However, what I really don't like is that this makes it nearly impossible to worker harass with melee units. I remember 2gating PvP and I killed a total of 3 probes :-( Don't the workers still have to get behind your zealot before they can surround it? You just need better reaction time in order to pull off harass effectively. You just need to focus your full attention to prevent the surround while wasting their mining time attempting to surround you. This can add a whole element of skill required for the harasser, rather than take away from the game. It will just take practice, or you can watch the Korean progamers do it. yeah but problem is workers look like they have better acceleration than before and they still have a higher natural top speed than zeals. depending on the surround AI, this could make surround unavoidable.
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On July 21 2008 17:22 zatic wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2008 11:21 Nyovne wrote:On July 21 2008 11:13 Ra.Xor.2 wrote: I disagree with your views on auto-surround though, if blizz is gonna simplify macro, at least KEEP MICRO. I didn't really see it as auto surround, units spread out around a target much smoother and much faster then in SC but its still faster and more efficient to manually control your units. This with the sole exception being zealots with the charge upgrade. I wet my pants every time I saw a decent sized group of them charging at something lol. (unless it was a pack of banelings and they werent on hold position lawl) I remember we talked about this and I guess you are right that microed units are still superior to "auto-surrounding" ones. However, what I really don't like is that this makes it nearly impossible to worker harass with melee units. I remember 2gating PvP and I killed a total of 3 probes :-(
EDIT - deleted - question was answered already. Sounds like you can still pull off melee vs workers with more attention.
However, if anybody else can comment on the surround pathing and any other pathing bits and pieces I'm all ears. I am just praying the fights are still fun and not too auto-everything.
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damn your not kidding that is long... when will i ever find the time to read this novel on sc2.
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Thank You and Good Job, I read it all - part after part during whole day It's time for [BWWI] From The Baneling's Lair
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Hands down the best write-up I have seen for SC2 (even better than the TLFE...sorry guys). It definitely instilled a lot of hope in SC2 for me.
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On Zerg-
Let's hope they give Zerg another caster (or add to the Overseer) like suggested.
I'd like to see Zerg get some help with cliffs, but as much as I miss scourge I am not sure they'd be "fair" against colossi. It'd be like hitting a grounded reaver.
So glad they are testing consume! Like you say, we'll see if it is actually needed in the beta. As long as they at least test it I'm hoping we get it back though (AKA it's needed), even in a nerfed form.
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From what you wrote it looks like starcraft 2 is amazing, And the fact that it is only in alpha makes it even more amazing o_O I really think the time when macro will be dealt with is during beta. Not to be rude, but no one outside blizzard has really played it long enough to give blizzard accurate feedback on MBS.
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Hi, Nyovne I've read most of your post; many thanks for having shared your experience of SC2. You did an amazing job!
Any specfic thoughts on the Thor and the role it currently fulfills? Were you satisfied by what you saw or experienced with that unit?
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Really awesome report. This is the kind of thing that really keeps me interested, not fansites, screenshots, youtube video, or any amount of discussion with fellow Starcraft players.
This quote should govern any discussion of Starcraft 2 on any website anywhere on the internet. It should be written in bold and it should blink and maybe make it reach out of the computer and grab you by the balls and scream "OH MY GOD READ ME."
Playing the game has changed everyones opinions about it and it will yours too. So pretty please, with sugar on top, don't talk in absolutes about balance during this stage of the games design. Especially if you haven’t played it yet. All most people are going on is speculation based on "design intentions" and numerical data without context.
Slightly related: I don't know if there's a job for a subheader writer anywhere, but if there is, you should apply. Those were hilarious.
Another side, when you said that reavers were more fun than colossi, I initially read it as Reavers are in the game...with the superfreak AI that autosurrounds + automines + makes you pancakes. I think the major TL report mentioned it, but scarabs with this new AI would be SCARY.
I'm relieved to hear from the various reports we've received that the "spirit" of SC is alive and kicking -- I'm curious if the build of SC2 you played demonstrated a dimension we haven't seen strategically. Not new angles on the old formulas, but are there characteristics that you believe will have a huge learning curve?
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Hmm, about the lack of Consume problem. How about giving the Infestor an ability (upgrade required), let's say, Auto-digestion, which would allow you to trade Infestor's HP for Energy? There would be no additional mana upgrade, but instead you'd be able to get 3 mana points for 1 HP or something. :D
By the way, the article on your games with burrow use would be very appriciated. ^^
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wtf lol I think blizzard should let you beta test the game and then you tell em how to make hte game.
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On July 21 2008 10:58 SonuvBob wrote: I disagree.
edit: Also, I found a typo.
i found 2: equasion = equation and then = than
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And people complained mine was long ... phsaw ...
I know it's frustrating when you put so much effort into it and people just reply in three line posts but ...
Good Job!
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i found 2: equasion = equation and then = than
Weird, because there were dozens. No offense to the author.
Not a big deal though, especially since you hurried a bit and didn't proofread and all that but one error did bother me because it was so frequent, the continuous use of "alot". It's "a lot". Of course noone expects you to bother to go back and change them...
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On July 21 2008 23:22 SlickR12345 wrote: I also agree that auto-mine should be removed as well as smart-cast.
I personally have no beef at all with smart-casting. It just makes certain spells more powerfull and they can be adjusted accordingly during Beta. For the rest it just makes the control of casters more natural imho and offcourse a bit easier. With that I hope to see a bit more use of them in some lower skill games.
The best thing about autocast is that it makes spells such as snipe in SC2 or lockdown in SC actually usable and accessible.
I don't think it will be any problem at all. What I would have problems with is a whole scala of autocast spells such as in WC3 which luckily aren't present in SC2. (except for heal offcourse which isn't usable in its current intended role without autocast)
On your macro stuff for terran, well their reactor/techlab addons are their little macro options chance I guess . (which is a very cool mechanic imho, simple, unique, and very effective in fulfilling its designed purpose)
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On July 22 2008 00:11 Ki_Do wrote: Sorry for the spam , but i got one question Nyo: - About the micro being too simple "Blink up , kill something, blink down". can you make a comparison to brood war micro please , i couldnt understand/figure very well ^^ Hehe I don't feel micro to be too simple at all. It's pretty much SC micro with new abilities and units. The new pathing and clutter might even mean you better pay really good attention to certain units and skirmishes because the mortality rate of certain units is alot higher due to it.
Most new units are just very straight up like the old ones with straight up new abilities. Blink is a very simple straight up ability which is nice imho. Its cooldown and range is obviously open to balance in Beta and while its on cooldown you gotta micro them just like goons in the original.
Sorry if I made this confusing somehow. If I still haven't cleared anything up (I was pretty vague in this post) just repost in this thread, get on IRC or send me a PM and I'll discuss it with you .
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On July 22 2008 00:13 FrozenArbiter wrote: Good read =] Haha good, god knows I let you wait long enough!
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Hey everyone, just wanted to say thanks alot for taking the time to read it and leave a reply!
If there are any questions feel free to leave them in this thread and I'll try and answer them in a timely fashion.
As to the questions above I haven't replied to I'll get to it after I have some dinner and a nap to deal with this really nasty hangover -.-.
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Wow Nyovne you're the man. :D I finally had time to read it all and it was well worth it.
One thing it got me wondering. What is your personal opinion on the potential of macro enhancing abilities like Mutate Larvae and the Reactor to increase the skill gap at top levels? Can a good player overrun a bad player because he used larvae/reactor better? (always making 1 larvae when it's up complemented by good overlord count etc) Could that maybe heal the damage done by mbs/automine? I personally would love to see more abilities similar to these.
In SC2 there just are no ways to for example prevent a phase-prism from flying to the edge of your base and then proceeding to instantly warp-in several units right into your base with the exception of having a sizable army of air units capable of destroying it before it can succesfully do it. As a player you are just forced to move back your army to deal with the units that will be warping in or the dropships that will be unloading unless you invested heavily into air to air units (Which especially as zerg is a total joke in the build we played at WWI.). That sounds like it could be balanced changing the cast time of the deploy pylon aura ability. Is it too short right now? If it takes long enough so you could spot it, move defense there, kill it before it finishes deploying. Then you wouldn't need heavy air investment, just some.
- Nydus worms are really cool but need some serious looking at because while it is an incredibly powerful offensive and defensive tool in the zerg arsenal it comes up way short for the zerg as an effective way to deal with cliffplay such as stalker and collossi use or a siege tank drop. Didn't you say before that it was good offensively but bad defensively? Or did I misread something.
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On July 21 2008 13:14 SonuvBob wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2008 12:50 Mynock wrote: Reading it tho, seems like all of you who have seen the game and have a more or less competitive gaming mind agree on the bad parts of the game. Now if only Blizzard would listen to our voices, instead of the millions and millions of dollars from newcomers who want pretty graphics and easy life... If only... Fixed. I'd just like to remember something you guys seem to forget very often. Those millions of dollars are what keep the e-sport scene alive. It is these newbies who still watch games that attract the sponsors who pay for the tournaments you love. If you enjoy e-sports and the high money prize tournaments, you should be glad that Blizzard listens to the millions and millions of dollars from newcomers who want pretty graphics and easy life
Just a small reminder tho. I won't derail this great thread. If anyone wish to respond to me please use another thread, I won't reply here again.
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On July 23 2008 03:27 VIB wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2008 13:14 SonuvBob wrote:On July 21 2008 12:50 Mynock wrote: Reading it tho, seems like all of you who have seen the game and have a more or less competitive gaming mind agree on the bad parts of the game. Now if only Blizzard would listen to our voices, instead of the millions and millions of dollars from newcomers who want pretty graphics and easy life... If only... Fixed. I'd just like to remember something you guys seem to forget very often. Those millions of dollars are what keep the e-sport scene alive. It is these newbies who still watch games that attract the sponsors who pay for the tournaments you love. If you enjoy e-sports and the high money prize tournaments, you should be glad that Blizzard listens to the millions and millions of dollars from newcomers who want pretty graphics and easy life Just a small reminder tho. I won't derail this great thread. If anyone wish to respond to me please use another thread, I won't reply here again.
This is exactly the kind of ignorant, unfounded trolling I hate seeing about the SC2 forum that just ruins every legitmate discussion. If anything that goes against all the progress weve seen from blizzard over the last year.
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VIB, that kind of people are NOT interested in e-sports, and they do NOT keep it alive in ANY way. Just look at the official cesspool.
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I am sorry if you answered this already, but is the targeting AI the same as SC?
For example, units would ignore workers and go after the attacking units, due to some sort of priority. Also this is what made muta/ling work as well, since mutas were higher than zerglings.
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"Changes like resources being spent the moment you command a worker to build a building instead of when it actually starts the construction is just great and really smoothes out gameflow and removes little annoyances for alot of players."
i disagree, haveing loss of minerals only once the worker starts constructing, helps in endgame building where you have a strong economy going - and can build say, 10 turrets/cannons whatever, even though you can't afford it at the moment you ordered the construction, the money will be there once the scv reaches build location.
I don't see how one can find this annoying..
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Sweden33719 Posts
But it pretty much has to be there, otherwise you can just queue up infinite supply depots without having to pay anything until they actually build :D
I thought the same as you did until somuchbetter pointed this out to me.
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On July 23 2008 08:02 FrozenArbiter wrote: But it pretty much has to be there, otherwise you can just queue up infinite supply depots without having to pay anything until they actually build :D
I thought the same as you did until somuchbetter pointed this out to me.
or, they can kill waypoint building.. :D where do i sign... :o
Gogo - submit my question for june .. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=72607¤tpage=2
or dont, dont want to give them more gay ideas.. and i think the sarcasm of my ending had too much Camouflage on it.
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Read it all, and it was a great read, thanks alot!
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Awesome post man. Took me an hour to read.
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Hong Kong20321 Posts
On July 23 2008 08:02 FrozenArbiter wrote: But it pretty much has to be there, otherwise you can just queue up infinite supply depots without having to pay anything until they actually build :D
I thought the same as you did until somuchbetter pointed this out to me.
wait i dont really get this :x care to clarify? or quote somuchbetter's post o_O
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Mighty post. Awesome info in here. Sets my mind at ease (slightly) about the surround AI. I'm not very confident that SC2 will ever have anything like the macro requirements SC though. You cannot replicate that engine in a mainstream game these days. It all depends on what new mechanics they can cook up.
btw. Sheesh. Is it really that hard to read a long post? O_o. Its about SC2! Make it longer! ^^
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On July 23 2008 07:59 ocoini wrote: "Changes like resources being spent the moment you command a worker to build a building instead of when it actually starts the construction is just great and really smoothes out gameflow and removes little annoyances for alot of players."
i disagree, haveing loss of minerals only once the worker starts constructing, helps in endgame building where you have a strong economy going - and can build say, 10 turrets/cannons whatever, even though you can't afford it at the moment you ordered the construction, the money will be there once the scv reaches build location.
I don't see how one can find this annoying.. You read it wrong, in sc the resources it takes to build a building is not spent untill the construction starts so if you accidentally spend it on something else you get an error message instead of a building. Now that can't happen.
Also at above, queing structures is no different than queing units.
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You still need the money in the bank when you click the button though...
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Appreciate the writeup, it gave me something to read while avoiding work at work.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On July 23 2008 13:18 alffla wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2008 08:02 FrozenArbiter wrote: But it pretty much has to be there, otherwise you can just queue up infinite supply depots without having to pay anything until they actually build :D
I thought the same as you did until somuchbetter pointed this out to me. wait i dont really get this :x care to clarify? or quote somuchbetter's post o_O It was on msn, but basically if you aren't charged the instant you place a building (in sc you are charged only when the worker actually reaches the construction site) then you can queue an infinite number of buildings.
With the current system (insta charge as soon as you click place), you can only queue 10 supply depots if you have 1000 minerals.
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Yes, FA, and that money can obviously be spent elsewhere. I think that's good. It's be lame if you could just spam the Depots while other races can't. T_____T
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what?I didnt got it... this "building queue" means that you can order a worker to build (for example) one depot and then after finish, automatically build another building since you have the enough resources?
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basically it works the same as it does in WC3.. nothing speciall
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so... thats another macro killer?
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No, as someone said it's basically like queuing up units at a barracks, Saves time but wastes resources. It shouldn't affect high level play at all really.
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Is there spell queuing? As in, for mm, move somewhere => shift T (to stim) causing the marines to stim once they've reached the move location? Or does it work like SC where you can't queue up abilities? This would make it too easy for temps or other spell casters to spread out storms. Being able to shift-click storm locations would remove so much micro/multitasking since you could just choose 1 temp and shift-T to storm like 3 different spots on one chained command.
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I really wish we had more pro gamer impressions/interviews on SC2
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Dude, it took me around 2.5 hours total just to read the whole thing, but I am a pretty average speed reader so it might take some people only 1.5 or 2 hours to completely read it. Nyovne, you should post this up on the Battle.net forums for the devs to read. It was an EXTREMELY insightful read and I hope you go to the 2008 Blizzon so that you can write another awesome SC2 report.
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On July 22 2008 04:48 Blacklizard wrote: On Zerg-
Let's hope they give Zerg another caster (or add to the Overseer) like suggested.
I'd like to see Zerg get some help with cliffs, but as much as I miss scourge I am not sure they'd be "fair" against colossi. It'd be like hitting a grounded reaver.
So glad they are testing consume! Like you say, we'll see if it is actually needed in the beta. As long as they at least test it I'm hoping we get it back though (AKA it's needed), even in a nerfed form. Yup it felt like zerg could really use a second caster, wonder if and how they'll be tackling that cause compared to the other races it really feels like a niche. It was in SC1 as well since the Queen, like the ghost, were extremely underused casters and I hope to see every unit in SC2 shine at certain times.
The power of sci vessels and defilers more then made up for that, if not plain overshadowed them though.
Consume always has been an interesting mechanic and just a much needed one in SC for the zerg to survive. Time will tell if its needed in SC2 and if so how it will handle. The mechanic at least I wouldn't mind to see return to SC2, not on the infestor persé, I just like it alot.
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On July 22 2008 06:51 UmmTheHobo wrote: From what you wrote it looks like starcraft 2 is amazing, And the fact that it is only in alpha makes it even more amazing o_O I really think the time when macro will be dealt with is during beta. Not to be rude, but no one outside blizzard has really played it long enough to give blizzard accurate feedback on MBS. Agreed, we offcouse cannot say certain things with certainty. However we can share our opinions based on our limited experience, which is all we can go at at the moment. We most especially have our take on the macro mechanics based purely on principle though. The principle is just counterproductive for a game with e-sports in mind, thats the main point we are stressing. Not that MBS or the new mechanics are bad or ruin the fun of the game, far from it.
We just stress it most likely (confirmed by our limited experience) will have an adverse effect on the competative element of SC2.
In short, what all the TL reviewers have been stating pretty much is that:
To succeed as an E-Sport SC2 will require room for players to differentiate themselves skill- as well as style-wise. We feared before WWI and saw it confirmed there that said room is being diminished.
Thats my beef with the new macro mechanics. All reviews on this site have approached SC2 with the perspective of its future and success as an E-sport, not as how an individual player would experience or enjoy it.
Both perspectives have a serious difference in criteria, which is why so many people cannot conform themselves with our opinions on SC2. They can't view the game from the same perspective as we do. As such they view our arguments from a different perspective then from (and for) which they were written.
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On July 22 2008 07:18 TheLorme wrote: Hi, Nyovne I've read most of your post; many thanks for having shared your experience of SC2. You did an amazing job!
Any specfic thoughts on the Thor and the role it currently fulfills? Were you satisfied by what you saw or experienced with that unit?
I only used the Thor in a single TvT and haven't built or seen it used against me since. As such I cannot in all honesty give you an opinion on it as a unit.
The only thing I can say about is, is that as an individual unit I found its design far more interesting (not neccesarily better!) when it was even slower and built by an SCV.
As such I'd like it very much and I'd love to see another go at experimenting with a SCV constructed Thor. In that design I think it would be cool (again a terrible argument but I'm human with my own preferences after all lol!) to see the Thor a bit as it is right now (as a damage absorb/siege breaker, not an anti air platform at which it *seems* to fail terribly and I have no reason to suspect otherwise) but then constructed by an SCV. Also with even more reduced speed and being able to "lift-off" like terran buildings do to increase their speed a bit (they wouldnt be able to fire) and reach islands/slowly scale a large cliff.
This last because at the moment Thors cannot be transported by dropships and I'd like to see them a bit more unique.
Ah well, those are my boyish dreams for a cool terran mecha :D.
In short though: I think the Thor is really cool and most of my friends thought the same. The only thing is that it totally lacks any personality and clear role as a unit which leaves it bland and generally confused as why you are actually building one and not spending that large amount of time, minerals and gas on something else like 2-3 banshees.
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Nyovne, I agree with you about the ambiguity of units in battle. I hope that they'll make them more defined as the game progresses.
Very nice post btw.
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On July 22 2008 08:38 DeepGreen wrote:Really awesome report. This is the kind of thing that really keeps me interested, not fansites, screenshots, youtube video, or any amount of discussion with fellow Starcraft players. This quote should govern any discussion of Starcraft 2 on any website anywhere on the internet. It should be written in bold and it should blink and maybe make it reach out of the computer and grab you by the balls and scream "OH MY GOD READ ME." Show nested quote + Playing the game has changed everyones opinions about it and it will yours too. So pretty please, with sugar on top, don't talk in absolutes about balance during this stage of the games design. Especially if you haven’t played it yet. All most people are going on is speculation based on "design intentions" and numerical data without context.
Slightly related: I don't know if there's a job for a subheader writer anywhere, but if there is, you should apply. Those were hilarious. Another side, when you said that reavers were more fun than colossi, I initially read it as Reavers are in the game...with the superfreak AI that autosurrounds + automines + makes you pancakes. I think the major TL report mentioned it, but scarabs with this new AI would be SCARY. I'm relieved to hear from the various reports we've received that the "spirit" of SC is alive and kicking -- I'm curious if the build of SC2 you played demonstrated a dimension we haven't seen strategically. Not new angles on the old formulas, but are there characteristics that you believe will have a huge learning curve?
Great that you enjoyed it! Thank you very much for reading it all and taking the time to leave some kind words for me . Much apprechiated! I mean I wrote this initially for myself but a little pat on the back never hurt anyone. (unless it was from Mr. T)
Yeah people should be more interested in general design principles and implementations then bitch and moan about individial units and their statistics. Statistics and timings are 100% Beta material and are off less consequence then the bigger picture/mechanics/gamestyle which is what it is all about in the Alpha stages of design.
The only thing that I could imagine of the new things which would have a steep learning curve would be to get aquinted with the new increased mobility of the races. This is offcourse purely based on WWI impression and I have no way to tell how it will hold up in actual play and if it will actually result in more mobile action across the map.
If players are fully pressuring eachother it offcourse becomes a whole other game then when left alone. Time will tell how available these new racial mobilities actually are allthough I expect warp-in and nydus worms to be of huge importance in any aspect of future SC2 gameplay and gameflow if they remain in the game in any form.
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On July 22 2008 08:59 maybenexttime wrote: Hmm, about the lack of Consume problem. How about giving the Infestor an ability (upgrade required), let's say, Auto-digestion, which would allow you to trade Infestor's HP for Energy? There would be no additional mana upgrade, but instead you'd be able to get 3 mana points for 1 HP or something. :D
By the way, the article on your games with burrow use would be very appriciated. ^^ Well the lack of consume isn't a problem yet and might never devellop into one hehe. Hp for Energy would be a nice mechanic tbh and unique to the SC universe.
Beta will learn if any such mechanic is needed and if so I'm curious to what they'd come up with. Recycle an old tried and proven ability? Add that old ability but with a new design and twist? Or come up with a wholly new solution to a gamebalance problem.
Always interesting to see what Blizzard can come up with.
Hehe on some SC2 gamereports and burrow and shit I'll do it when I get around to it/get bored :D.
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On July 22 2008 21:02 Bash wrote:Weird, because there were dozens. No offense to the author. Not a big deal though, especially since you hurried a bit and didn't proofread and all that but one error did bother me because it was so frequent, the continuous use of "alot". It's "a lot". Of course noone expects you to bother to go back and change them... Haha sorry if it annoyed you, if I ever get THAT bored or if it will end up in the Final Edits I'll head back in and correct the spelling mistakes and have it proof read .
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On July 23 2008 03:16 VIB wrote:Wow Nyovne you're the man. :D I finally had time to read it all and it was well worth it. One thing it got me wondering. What is your personal opinion on the potential of macro enhancing abilities like Mutate Larvae and the Reactor to increase the skill gap at top levels? Can a good player overrun a bad player because he used larvae/reactor better? (always making 1 larvae when it's up complemented by good overlord count etc) Could that maybe heal the damage done by mbs/automine? I personally would love to see more abilities similar to these. Show nested quote +In SC2 there just are no ways to for example prevent a phase-prism from flying to the edge of your base and then proceeding to instantly warp-in several units right into your base with the exception of having a sizable army of air units capable of destroying it before it can succesfully do it. As a player you are just forced to move back your army to deal with the units that will be warping in or the dropships that will be unloading unless you invested heavily into air to air units (Which especially as zerg is a total joke in the build we played at WWI.). That sounds like it could be balanced changing the cast time of the deploy pylon aura ability. Is it too short right now? If it takes long enough so you could spot it, move defense there, kill it before it finishes deploying. Then you wouldn't need heavy air investment, just some. Show nested quote +- Nydus worms are really cool but need some serious looking at because while it is an incredibly powerful offensive and defensive tool in the zerg arsenal it comes up way short for the zerg as an effective way to deal with cliffplay such as stalker and collossi use or a siege tank drop. Didn't you say before that it was good offensively but bad defensively? Or did I misread something.
To start with let me be clear that new mechanics like the mutated larvae and reactor tech get me really excited for the game. They aren't as much macro enhancing implementations but more of macro diversing mechanics. In other words, they add diversity to the game and allow for choices to be made during the macro (resource aquiring and spending) process. Implementations such as that get me really hyped. Why? Because as I stated a gazillion times and I will keep repeating it till the game gets released and then some: Room for players to differentiate themselves skill as well as style-wise will result in a more succesful E-sport.
Options to integrate into a players larvae management which is the core of any zerg players macro is just awsome. Those are the things which are really good implementations imho cause they aid to the possibilities and room for players to differentiate themselves from eachother. Reactor/Techlab choices are likewise very interesting as they force choices between higher tier/quality units or faster more basic units.
Simply put, choices for players during gameplay are good. Creative and original choices make a unique, entertaining and possibly groundbreaking and unique player. And thats one which I'll pay to watch play and cheer my lungs out for. E-Sports, nuff said.
Changing the deploy time for Phase Prisms isn't the way to go with in my (very personal and limited) experience. Why? Simply because it would deduct from the game its already very fast and dynamic gameplay and it has nothing to do with a players skill. Units are fast, smoothe and have easy and immediately to deploy abilities. Fast and dynamic games make for entertaining games, for players as well as spectators.
With that in mind I'd personally like to look for solutions to most problems in SC2 in dynamic and most of all player controled options. These most naturally flow from player controled abilities or units.
As to your final point, I don't know if you misread anything! Nydus worms function pretty much as easier to use (in quality as well as quantity!) midgame nydus canals from the original game.
Offensively they are incredibly strong as of yet and if they are too strong or not will need to be determined if players in actual play can effectively counter them. Two things make me doubt that they are not overpowered which are a) their insanely short deploy time after a really short time for an overlords creep to spread, and b) the fact that you can rally newly created units into the nydus system!
A minor point c) would be that losing a nydus worm doesn't make you lose any units as losing a loaded overlord, dropship or phase-prism would.
Defensively though they are GREAT for having a huge network to keep a large army mobile to defend your pletora and expansions spread out across the map.
A huge disadvantage to their defensive use is that they need creep to spawn plus you need one building (nydus warren) per worm you want to spawn at the same time. As such its practically impossible to defend from cliff play once its in action and expanding to an island is a bit of a bitch as well.
In short, nydus worms need some work but thats no surprise, its still alpha.
What I could obviously see as a decent fix (but again would be a bit grabbing back again towards the original game) would be to implement some nerfs to the nydus system such as changing it to hive tech level and bringing back the lair level overlord transport (ventral sacks or somthing?)upgrade to the game. This would bring some spice and motivation for a zerg to hit hive tech level (which is seriously weak at the moment compared to their INCREDIBLE midgame) while clearing up some midgame problems such as an effective and most of all reactive defense vs midgame cliffplay. As far as island expansion aquisition goes I don't think the current system actually falls short though!
It's mostly just cliffplay and the fact that nydus worms can be relatively easily stopped when there is some dedicated defense I guess. Especially when some nerfs will be implemented (which will happen, no doubt). As opposed to that the zerg Doom Drop is not only incredibly powerful and would add to zerg diversity strategy wise but (I know bad nostalgia argument) also pretty damn iconic to the zerg as a race.
Good points, cheers.
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On July 23 2008 05:49 Tiamat wrote: I am sorry if you answered this already, but is the targeting AI the same as SC?
For example, units would ignore workers and go after the attacking units, due to some sort of priority. Also this is what made muta/ling work as well, since mutas were higher than zerglings. Yes.
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On July 23 2008 13:40 RinoZerg wrote: Mighty post. Awesome info in here. Sets my mind at ease (slightly) about the surround AI. I'm not very confident that SC2 will ever have anything like the macro requirements SC though. You cannot replicate that engine in a mainstream game these days. It all depends on what new mechanics they can cook up.
btw. Sheesh. Is it really that hard to read a long post? O_o. Its about SC2! Make it longer! ^^
Haha, cheers.
As to your point, it's not an engine problem at all. Change back all rally commands upon construction completion (workers and attack units!) back to move instead of a-move and harvest and watch how at least 75% of the problem instantly goes away. Add some tweaks to the MBS construction queue options for units and I'm pretty damn sure at least 90% of people problems with it again gone.
These are at least really really simple and easy to implement solutions which might very well (would have to play test to confirm offc) solve the (in my opinion) biggest problem in SC2 as an E-sport. (That along with the whole prevention vs consequence problem)
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On July 23 2008 14:50 xgc-Infinite wrote: Appreciate the writeup, it gave me something to read while avoiding work at work. Glad to help :D.
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On July 24 2008 04:01 dmetheny wrote: No, as someone said it's basically like queuing up units at a barracks, Saves time but wastes resources. It shouldn't affect high level play at all really. Simple, clear and well put, thanks for clearing that up for people!
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On July 24 2008 04:13 beefhamburger wrote: Is there spell queuing? As in, for mm, move somewhere => shift T (to stim) causing the marines to stim once they've reached the move location? Or does it work like SC where you can't queue up abilities? This would make it too easy for temps or other spell casters to spread out storms. Being able to shift-click storm locations would remove so much micro/multitasking since you could just choose 1 temp and shift-T to storm like 3 different spots on one chained command. Nope sorry, no abilities or spell queues which I think is a good thing. Forces more personal player control over his units which creates room for players to differentiate. Spellcasting and ability use is one of the things I feel that Blizzard did immediately right, straight up in Alpha and where I expect very little tuning/fixes in the Beta period.
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On July 24 2008 05:07 yangstuh wrote: I really wish we had more pro gamer impressions/interviews on SC2 Meh, allthough always great and interesting to read I'm alot more looking forward to real Korean progamer impressions and feedback on the game once it actually hits its Beta phase where the fine-tuning gets done and balance is established .
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One of the questions I got in PMs is worth sharing I guess:
From Ki_Do
in sc2 the workers will auto split, now that worker split-micro of the very very very early game might be gone(ok thats not a big loss, but i like it ^^) however i just got this strange thought- since we got features like auto surround that makes micro for newbs easier but manually surround is still better, so manually spliting would still be better than the automatic one? i mean, you got any feeling about that?
Response:
Splitting workers into 2-2-2 or just 3-3 instead of all 6 onto one node is still more efficient and made the difference between having those 300 mins for that hatchery on 13 when my drone arrived at the expo or that id have to wait a bit or that I had 150 mins again right after my hatch-pool-hatch--> 3 lings timed.
It's mere seconds but ah well, every little bit eh? Especially when rushing or having to defend against proxy zeals/other cheese.
So don't worry, you'll still be doing that little iconic SC split at the start but in a different form .
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On July 24 2008 07:51 DeadVessel wrote: Nyovne, I agree with you about the ambiguity of units in battle. I hope that they'll make them more defined as the game progresses.
Very nice post btw. Agreed Jared, thats why I'm awaiting the Beta period with great anticipation to see how they work it and how all the units turn out while being properly playtested.
Cheers m8ty.
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is awesome32252 Posts
I read it all, very nice read. Glad to see lots of good things coming. I'm all in for new stuff, I don't want to see all the same old units, as long as the new units are cool!
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great read
if they really want to keep automining maybe they should just make it a very expensive early upgrade. something that would cripple you at a high level but make the game less cumbersome at a low level. maybe like a 600 mineral 400 gas upgrade only available after your second base. just a thought.
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hhmm trace~ automine is a very importante aspect that kills macro, even with penalties that still would be bad
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hm maybe they could implement some sort of "tournament-mode" where all non-combat, non-pathfinding etc. ai-scripts are disabled for those complaining about automining killing macro
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u mean, a pro-mode and a noob-mode i see
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If they add a pro-mode and a noob-mode, one is gonna win out eventually, its like the Blu-ray and HDDVD debate. And i would bet, due to the number of noobs that are gonna crossover from other games, it would be noob-mode.
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On July 24 2008 08:44 Nyovne wrote:One of the questions I got in PMs is worth sharing I guess: From Ki_Do Show nested quote +in sc2 the workers will auto split, now that worker split-micro of the very very very early game might be gone(ok thats not a big loss, but i like it ^^) however i just got this strange thought- since we got features like auto surround that makes micro for newbs easier but manually surround is still better, so manually spliting would still be better than the automatic one? i mean, you got any feeling about that? Response: Show nested quote +Splitting workers into 2-2-2 or just 3-3 instead of all 6 onto one node is still more efficient and made the difference between having those 300 mins for that hatchery on 13 when my drone arrived at the expo or that id have to wait a bit or that I had 150 mins again right after my hatch-pool-hatch--> 3 lings timed.
It's mere seconds but ah well, every little bit eh? Especially when rushing or having to defend against proxy zeals/other cheese.
So don't worry, you'll still be doing that little iconic SC split at the start but in a different form .
I quite like the sound of this, doing 2-2-2 is pretty close to the our current splits in terms of actions needed.
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thedeadhaji
39476 Posts
lol peo mode noob mode.
welcome to last year.
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Although I read the initial post I just scanned the rest, so my apologies if somebody has already brought up a similar post
Just my 2 cents coming from an former above-average warcraft 3 player (top 200-300 europe): I never really liked the feeling of starcraft and I know, this is a kinda weird statement coming from someone who is about to comment on the developement of sc 2.
My point nevertheless is, that in my opinion far too many really good sc-players are of the opinion, that sc "must" stay macro-intensive and that blizzard is "obliged" to implement mechanics so the game stays pretty much the same; I think it's really important to realize, that from blizzards point of view sc 2 shouldn't only appeal to former sc players but also to warcraft 3-players or even people of the "age of..."-community; just by emphazising the micro the game definitely does not become less competitive and - referring to the inital post - it will definitely not be possible to play a "perfect"-game....years of warcraft-3 prove that; it seems that some people don't appear to want starcraft 2, but starcraft 1.5 - since everybody (at least considering forums where mostly people post who know what they are talking about) seems to agree, that the micro/macro-balance should stay exactly the same, leaving the player the option of either macroing or microing
the aim of my post is NOT to have people agree with my point of view, everybody has different opinions about how a game should be created, I don't see a reason why to convince anybody to think somethin different; but since I (and many that I know from my previous wc3-play) will definitely look into sc 2 if it is more micro-based I want you to think about blizzards task, creating a game that on the one hand attracts as many people as possible and on the other hand is still a challenge on a competitive level;
to cut the long story short: please, pretty please STOP being so ignorant to think, that blizzard only wants to satisfy the mass of the noobs out there by implementing MBS and auto-mining - everywhere I look people flame blizzard for they think, blizzard just wants to make the game "easier"; that's simply not the case: blizzard is about to create a new gamestyle that's somewhat between the macro-intensive sc and the micro-intensive wc 3 and both MBS and auto-mining are in my opinion essential parts of this new gamestyle
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inform yourself before posting. blizzard has publicly stated that they want to maintain the seperation between the warcraft and starcraft lines in that warcraft is the micro driven world while starcraft maintains a heavy focus on macro.
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On August 03 2008 00:42 IdrA wrote: inform yourself before posting. blizzard has publicly stated that they want to maintain the seperation between the warcraft and starcraft lines in that warcraft is the micro driven world while starcraft maintains a heavy focus on macro.
Were did they say that starcraft really needed to maintain a heavy focus on macro? Of what I remember they said that they want starcraft to be about large armies, resource wars and such and not the squad combat style of wc3. However that do not mean that they want the dominant playstyle to be the one were you spend the most of your time in your base producing units.
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On August 03 2008 00:42 IdrA wrote: inform yourself before posting. blizzard has publicly stated that they want to maintain the seperation between the warcraft and starcraft lines in that warcraft is the micro driven world while starcraft maintains a heavy focus on macro.
maybe I didn't make my point clear enough - what I meant is about reading between the lines and indeed not at all about what blizzard has published or will ever publishe
it's a very obvious fact that blizzard wants to sell as many games as possible and are therefore trying to satisfy both the sc-community and the other communities as well; of course they will never "admit" that because they will get flamed all over the sc-forums, but it's true nonetheless - it's a business, selling as many games as possible is all that counts; what's simply important is, that many people seem to think, that blizzard only tries to make the game more "noob-friendly", which explains the flamewars against everyone who tries to defend MBS/etc.; I don't wanna be mistaken, I completely understand and respect the sc-community and their desire to keep the game macro-based; but you shouldn't be so "ingenuous" to really think that blizzard don't know what they are doing; I mean, come on, it's not like that anyone at blizz sat at his desk thinking "hey, let's implement MBS, would be cool, wouldn't it?" - blizzard obviously thought about those important gameplaychanges long enough and by implementing them nevertheless it's obvious (at least to me) that they really WANT sc 2 to be more micro-based than sc (while of course still being far from the micro-wars of warcraft 3)
I think the general discussion really suffers if everybody tries to point out a "mistake" that blizzard in fact never made; of course the korean pros will still complain since they make their living out of it - in sc 2 some of them will probably be replaced by others who are better at micromanagemend, so I also understand why the current top-players don't like this change; but this has absolutely nothing to do with sc 2 being somewhat "less" competitive, since the focus just shifts to micro: but 400 apm will still beat 300 apm
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i don't think i've seen any of the korean or foreign top players(the ones we're watching on tv) giving a statement to the changes in sc2
it's only the majority of intermediate players who are bashing/flaming the changes ... they always claim that the main point of the game is to differentiate between eachother skillwise but i think its just playing for fun and of course to win
they should abandon this "apm & macro equals skill" and search for new ways to show off their abilities in sc2
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On August 03 2008 07:21 sleepingdog wrote: but 400 apm will still beat 300 apm Wrong! Player who controls his army and base better will always win, not the one who spams rally points, hotkeys etc ten times per second.
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On August 03 2008 18:06 Tritanis wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2008 07:21 sleepingdog wrote: but 400 apm will still beat 300 apm Wrong! Player who controls his army and base better will always win Obviously, apm as every other method is not very good at noting playerskill.
In the end its all about who makes the most correct decisions, apm only meassures how many decisions one make only if he do not spam and do not make any difference between good ones and bad. Everyone can click fast, to be skilled you need to be able to think fast or those clicks will be useless.
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On August 03 2008 18:06 Tritanis wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2008 07:21 sleepingdog wrote: but 400 apm will still beat 300 apm Wrong! Player who controls his army and base better will always win, not the one who spams rally points, hotkeys etc ten times per second.
I think that's a given annd he's stating that even though sc2 is "easier" it would still require more apm than physically possible. WC3 for example has a relatively low apm cap at around 200-250 where anything after that is useless. If 400 apm still makes a difference over 300 what does it matter if some aspects of the game are "easier".
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This is getting dangerously close to an MBS thread. Read the SC2 forum rules, and tread Very carefully...
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I have no intent in creating another "MBS pros and cons"-thread, I just wanted to point out that all the mentioned "cons" in the various threads are most likely (in fact, personally I am sure) wanted by blizzard
so if everyone just focusses on how to "even" out the fact, that all those things take away macro, in my opinion, they are wasting their time since blizzard won't change the gameplay such drastically in this stage; the team of blizzard doesn't consist of morons, of course they are very aware that those implementation will change the gameplay fundamentally - but they have probably made up their mind about this long ago and therefore I highly doubt that they will listen to any suggestions (may they even be very well thought) that will make the game again much more macro-based to resemble the current sc-gamestyle
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But however, 3.5 million copies of the game (half of all worldwide sales) were sold in Korea. I would think that most Koreans, especially because of them being the progaming centers of the world, would favor a macro - micro balance akin to that of SC today. So if Blizz wants to change up macro, they risk alienating their largest fan base, and thus largest source of income for SC. Since WCG would change a mappool to cater to the masses of Koreans, i wouldn't doubt that Blizzard would change to game to satisfy those same hungry masses.
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When will this be released in book form ?
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screw books, redeem starship troopers with starcraft =)
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On August 05 2008 14:53 DrainX wrote:When will this be released in book form ? Haha I deleted so much material I actually could release a damn novella. (This is like 21 pages uni treatise style and I edited another 11 pages worth out ^^) The rest was more beta stuff though, some battle reports, unit evaluations and racial balance. That kinda stuff but it aint really relevant in alpha although entertaining it might be.
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On August 05 2008 20:17 Nyovne wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2008 14:53 DrainX wrote:When will this be released in book form ? Haha I deleted so much material I actually could release a damn novella. (This is like 21 pages uni treatise style and I edited another 11 pages worth out ^^) The rest was more beta stuff though, some battle reports, unit evaluations and racial balance. That kinda stuff but it aint really relevant in alpha although entertaining it might be.
Do you still have all that? I enjoyed reading your OP a ton. Honestly I'd like to read more of what you have to say over sc2.
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On August 06 2008 08:28 T-P-S wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2008 20:17 Nyovne wrote:On August 05 2008 14:53 DrainX wrote:When will this be released in book form ? Haha I deleted so much material I actually could release a damn novella. (This is like 21 pages uni treatise style and I edited another 11 pages worth out ^^) The rest was more beta stuff though, some battle reports, unit evaluations and racial balance. That kinda stuff but it aint really relevant in alpha although entertaining it might be. Do you still have all that? I enjoyed reading your OP a ton. Honestly I'd like to read more of what you have to say over sc2. Heh if my boredom level stays around where it is now I'm sure I'll write up something for you during the next week and a half.
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Great read, hope to see another post like this after Blizzcon.
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On August 20 2008 17:09 Zzoram wrote: Great read, hope to see another post like this after Blizzcon. Sadly it wont be comming from me since I cant afford going :D.
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Okay sorry for the bump, but Nyovne linked this on the newest sc2 vs bw flame thread..
Read most of it and I gotta say, a lot of what Nyovne predicted hit the nail on the head. Loled a little when he said he was glad there was no weird kind of 'hero' unit. Anyways great read (everyone on TL should at least skim through this.. gives a lot of good perspective) and its funny to see how pretty much everything he said in '08 is still relevant.
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he is right in so many points, nice read.
my favorite one was the reaver > colossi flame :D
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On October 29 2011 07:41 Zeon0 wrote: he is right in so many points, nice read.
my favorite one was the reaver > colossi flame :D
The no scourge rant really hit home.
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seems like one big troll post for why BW> SC2, if this post was from a guy like me i would be instantly banned because there seems to be no tolerance around here for trolling, yet when its comes from a mod its allowed?
news flash, sc2 is already bigger than Broodwar as an Esport , Sure it might not be doing "as well" in korea when compared to BW, but everywhere else it has blown everybodys expectations into the ground, Call me when broodwar does this , ill be waiting.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On October 29 2011 09:13 jinixxx123 wrote: seems like one big troll post for why BW> SC2, if this post was from a guy like me i would be instantly banned because there seems to be no tolerance around here for trolling, yet when its comes from a mod its allowed?
news flash, sc2 is already bigger than Broodwar as an Esport , Sure it might not be doing "as well" in korea when compared to BW, but everywhere else it has blown everybodys expectations into the ground, Call me when broodwar does this , ill be waiting.
This was a post created 3 years ago. Did you really need to bring a "SC2 is bigger than BW" here?
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On October 29 2011 09:19 MetalLobster wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 09:13 jinixxx123 wrote: seems like one big troll post for why BW> SC2, if this post was from a guy like me i would be instantly banned because there seems to be no tolerance around here for trolling, yet when its comes from a mod its allowed?
news flash, sc2 is already bigger than Broodwar as an Esport , Sure it might not be doing "as well" in korea when compared to BW, but everywhere else it has blown everybodys expectations into the ground, Call me when broodwar does this , ill be waiting.
This was a post created 3 years ago. Did you really need to bring a "SC2 is bigger than BW" here?
im mainly replying to the guys that have recently posted in this thread with comments like "i agree etc".
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I remember reading this when it first came out. It was sooooo exciting then because it was pretty much one of the first real analyses of the game by someone who knew what they were talking about. And it may have also played a role in getting the macro mechanics added as well (at least, the argument made in this article about macro is what Dustin Browder said persuaded him to add them, whether or not anyone at Blizzard ever actually read it).
Of course, that being said, this was written three years ago, years before the game came out and before any macro mechanics had been added, after paltry hours of playtime at a convention...so it really doesn't have much in the way of valid insights about SC2 as it exists now.
If you try to turn this thread into a BW vs SC2 thing, or worse, actually try to prove a point using this article as an authority, I will slap you with a herring.
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On October 29 2011 09:22 jinixxx123 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 09:19 MetalLobster wrote:On October 29 2011 09:13 jinixxx123 wrote: seems like one big troll post for why BW> SC2, if this post was from a guy like me i would be instantly banned because there seems to be no tolerance around here for trolling, yet when its comes from a mod its allowed?
news flash, sc2 is already bigger than Broodwar as an Esport , Sure it might not be doing "as well" in korea when compared to BW, but everywhere else it has blown everybodys expectations into the ground, Call me when broodwar does this , ill be waiting.
This was a post created 3 years ago. Did you really need to bring a "SC2 is bigger than BW" here? im mainly replying to the guys that have recently posted in this thread with comments like "i agree etc".
/facepalm sry I didn't notice
regardless I'm getting sick of this SC2 vs BW argument. The following just needs to be QFT and accepted:
- SC2 is bigger than BW, in terms of fan-base, support etv. - BW is a more balanced game and takes more skill
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As good as the OP is I do not foresee anything but badness (couldn't think of what other word to use here) in subsequent posts.
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agree on the scourge and reaver, they really got e-sports value
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I thought for sure that this would be a TI bump when I clicked.
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With HotS coming up the old bw sc2 graves are opened up all over the place. and sc2 is a typical Blizzard the next part. Feels like the part before but plays differently in so many ways. Makes you want to play both games every now and then. Guess if you don't like lots of innovations you should stick with ea games, Blizzard is clearly the wrong address for games then. People acted like blizzard wouldn't know that selecting multiple buildings would make the game easier back then and that they would just let it go, you noticed asap that this wasn't the case.
Anyway in 25 years when we discuss about sc3 being better then sc4, because sc4 uses neural link tech which makes the game to easy. We can discuss what game was better sc1:bw or sc2 WoL or HotS or LotV(whatever of the 3 parts will make it in multiplayer, i hope its WoL for now ) For now i will enjoy both games while there are people playing them . Though currently i play D1 again >.<
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The macro and micro criticisms were (and still are) overblown. Nobody is close to perfect on either still and won't be for some time.
Though this still rings too true:
- Reavers are so much more exciting to use let alone see in action then Collossi.
The Colossus has proven to be such a terrible unit. I wish blizzard would have seen this earlier on.
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Oh lol I missed this getting bumped.
On October 29 2011 09:31 Captain Peabody wrote: And it may have also played a role in getting the macro mechanics added as well (at least, the argument made in this article about macro is what Dustin Browder said persuaded him to add them, whether or not anyone at Blizzard ever actually read it).
If I added to that I submit myself to ritual sacrifice by the community . But rereading this made me tingle a bit to write something about HotS and how certain things worked out for SC2. Might be interesting if I get around to it this week or the next. Would make a decent blog I'd wager.
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