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On July 21 2008 17:22 zatic wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2008 11:21 Nyovne wrote:On July 21 2008 11:13 Ra.Xor.2 wrote:
I disagree with your views on auto-surround though, if blizz is gonna simplify macro, at least KEEP MICRO. I didn't really see it as auto surround, units spread out around a target much smoother and much faster then in SC but its still faster and more efficient to manually control your units. This with the sole exception being zealots with the charge upgrade. I wet my pants every time I saw a decent sized group of them charging at something lol. (unless it was a pack of banelings and they werent on hold position lawl) I remember we talked about this and I guess you are right that microed units are still superior to "auto-surrounding" ones. However, what I really don't like is that this makes it nearly impossible to worker harass with melee units. I remember 2gating PvP and I killed a total of 3 probes :-(
EDIT - deleted - question was answered already. Sounds like you can still pull off melee vs workers with more attention.
However, if anybody else can comment on the surround pathing and any other pathing bits and pieces I'm all ears. I am just praying the fights are still fun and not too auto-everything.
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damn your not kidding that is long... when will i ever find the time to read this novel on sc2.
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Thank You and Good Job, I read it all - part after part during whole day 
It's time for [BWWI] From The Baneling's Lair
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Hands down the best write-up I have seen for SC2 (even better than the TLFE...sorry guys). It definitely instilled a lot of hope in SC2 for me.
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On Zerg-
Let's hope they give Zerg another caster (or add to the Overseer) like suggested.
I'd like to see Zerg get some help with cliffs, but as much as I miss scourge I am not sure they'd be "fair" against colossi. It'd be like hitting a grounded reaver.
So glad they are testing consume! Like you say, we'll see if it is actually needed in the beta. As long as they at least test it I'm hoping we get it back though (AKA it's needed), even in a nerfed form.
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From what you wrote it looks like starcraft 2 is amazing, And the fact that it is only in alpha makes it even more amazing o_O I really think the time when macro will be dealt with is during beta. Not to be rude, but no one outside blizzard has really played it long enough to give blizzard accurate feedback on MBS.
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Hi, Nyovne I've read most of your post; many thanks for having shared your experience of SC2. You did an amazing job!
Any specfic thoughts on the Thor and the role it currently fulfills? Were you satisfied by what you saw or experienced with that unit?
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Really awesome report. This is the kind of thing that really keeps me interested, not fansites, screenshots, youtube video, or any amount of discussion with fellow Starcraft players.
This quote should govern any discussion of Starcraft 2 on any website anywhere on the internet. It should be written in bold and it should blink and maybe make it reach out of the computer and grab you by the balls and scream "OH MY GOD READ ME."
Playing the game has changed everyones opinions about it and it will yours too. So pretty please, with sugar on top, don't talk in absolutes about balance during this stage of the games design. Especially if you haven’t played it yet. All most people are going on is speculation based on "design intentions" and numerical data without context.
Slightly related: I don't know if there's a job for a subheader writer anywhere, but if there is, you should apply. Those were hilarious.
Another side, when you said that reavers were more fun than colossi, I initially read it as Reavers are in the game...with the superfreak AI that autosurrounds + automines + makes you pancakes. I think the major TL report mentioned it, but scarabs with this new AI would be SCARY.
I'm relieved to hear from the various reports we've received that the "spirit" of SC is alive and kicking -- I'm curious if the build of SC2 you played demonstrated a dimension we haven't seen strategically. Not new angles on the old formulas, but are there characteristics that you believe will have a huge learning curve?
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Hmm, about the lack of Consume problem. How about giving the Infestor an ability (upgrade required), let's say, Auto-digestion, which would allow you to trade Infestor's HP for Energy? There would be no additional mana upgrade, but instead you'd be able to get 3 mana points for 1 HP or something. :D
By the way, the article on your games with burrow use would be very appriciated. ^^
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wtf lol I think blizzard should let you beta test the game and then you tell em how to make hte game.
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On July 21 2008 10:58 SonuvBob wrote:
I disagree.
edit: Also, I found a typo.
i found 2: equasion = equation and then = than
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And people complained mine was long ... phsaw ...
I know it's frustrating when you put so much effort into it and people just reply in three line posts but ...
Good Job! 
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i found 2: equasion = equation and then = than
Weird, because there were dozens. No offense to the author.
Not a big deal though, especially since you hurried a bit and didn't proofread and all that but one error did bother me because it was so frequent, the continuous use of "alot". It's "a lot". Of course noone expects you to bother to go back and change them...
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Netherlands19135 Posts
On July 21 2008 23:22 SlickR12345 wrote:
I also agree that auto-mine should be removed as well as smart-cast.
I personally have no beef at all with smart-casting. It just makes certain spells more powerfull and they can be adjusted accordingly during Beta. For the rest it just makes the control of casters more natural imho and offcourse a bit easier. With that I hope to see a bit more use of them in some lower skill games.
The best thing about autocast is that it makes spells such as snipe in SC2 or lockdown in SC actually usable and accessible.
I don't think it will be any problem at all. What I would have problems with is a whole scala of autocast spells such as in WC3 which luckily aren't present in SC2. (except for heal offcourse which isn't usable in its current intended role without autocast)
On your macro stuff for terran, well their reactor/techlab addons are their little macro options chance I guess  . (which is a very cool mechanic imho, simple, unique, and very effective in fulfilling its designed purpose)
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Netherlands19135 Posts
On July 22 2008 00:11 Ki_Do wrote:
Sorry for the spam , but i got one question Nyo:
- About the micro being too simple "Blink up , kill something, blink down".
can you make a comparison to brood war micro please , i couldnt understand/figure very well ^^
Hehe I don't feel micro to be too simple at all. It's pretty much SC micro with new abilities and units. The new pathing and clutter might even mean you better pay really good attention to certain units and skirmishes because the mortality rate of certain units is alot higher due to it.
Most new units are just very straight up like the old ones with straight up new abilities. Blink is a very simple straight up ability which is nice imho. Its cooldown and range is obviously open to balance in Beta and while its on cooldown you gotta micro them just like goons in the original.
Sorry if I made this confusing somehow. If I still haven't cleared anything up (I was pretty vague in this post) just repost in this thread, get on IRC or send me a PM and I'll discuss it with you .
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Netherlands19135 Posts
On July 22 2008 00:13 FrozenArbiter wrote:
Good read =]
Haha good, god knows I let you wait long enough!
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Netherlands19135 Posts
Hey everyone, just wanted to say thanks alot for taking the time to read it and leave a reply!
If there are any questions feel free to leave them in this thread and I'll try and answer them in a timely fashion.
As to the questions above I haven't replied to I'll get to it after I have some dinner and a nap to deal with this really nasty hangover -.-.
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Wow Nyovne you're the man. :D I finally had time to read it all and it was well worth it.
One thing it got me wondering. What is your personal opinion on the potential of macro enhancing abilities like Mutate Larvae and the Reactor to increase the skill gap at top levels? Can a good player overrun a bad player because he used larvae/reactor better? (always making 1 larvae when it's up complemented by good overlord count etc) Could that maybe heal the damage done by mbs/automine? I personally would love to see more abilities similar to these.
In SC2 there just are no ways to for example prevent a phase-prism from flying to the edge of your base and then proceeding to instantly warp-in several units right into your base with the exception of having a sizable army of air units capable of destroying it before it can succesfully do it. As a player you are just forced to move back your army to deal with the units that will be warping in or the dropships that will be unloading unless you invested heavily into air to air units (Which especially as zerg is a total joke in the build we played at WWI.). That sounds like it could be balanced changing the cast time of the deploy pylon aura ability. Is it too short right now? If it takes long enough so you could spot it, move defense there, kill it before it finishes deploying. Then you wouldn't need heavy air investment, just some.
- Nydus worms are really cool but need some serious looking at because while it is an incredibly powerful offensive and defensive tool in the zerg arsenal it comes up way short for the zerg as an effective way to deal with cliffplay such as stalker and collossi use or a siege tank drop. Didn't you say before that it was good offensively but bad defensively? Or did I misread something.
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On July 21 2008 13:14 SonuvBob wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2008 12:50 Mynock wrote:
Reading it tho, seems like all of you who have seen the game and have a more or less competitive gaming mind agree on the bad parts of the game. Now if only Blizzard would listen to our voices, instead of the millions and millions of dollars from newcomers who want pretty graphics and easy life... If only... Fixed. I'd just like to remember something you guys seem to forget very often. Those millions of dollars are what keep the e-sport scene alive. It is these newbies who still watch games that attract the sponsors who pay for the tournaments you love. If you enjoy e-sports and the high money prize tournaments, you should be glad that Blizzard listens to the millions and millions of dollars from newcomers who want pretty graphics and easy life
Just a small reminder tho. I won't derail this great thread. If anyone wish to respond to me please use another thread, I won't reply here again.
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On July 23 2008 03:27 VIB wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2008 13:14 SonuvBob wrote:On July 21 2008 12:50 Mynock wrote:
Reading it tho, seems like all of you who have seen the game and have a more or less competitive gaming mind agree on the bad parts of the game. Now if only Blizzard would listen to our voices, instead of the millions and millions of dollars from newcomers who want pretty graphics and easy life... If only... Fixed. I'd just like to remember something you guys seem to forget very often. Those millions of dollars are what keep the e-sport scene alive. It is these newbies who still watch games that attract the sponsors who pay for the tournaments you love. If you enjoy e-sports and the high money prize tournaments, you should be glad that Blizzard listens to the millions and millions of dollars from newcomers who want pretty graphics and easy life Just a small reminder tho. I won't derail this great thread. If anyone wish to respond to me please use another thread, I won't reply here again.
This is exactly the kind of ignorant, unfounded trolling I hate seeing about the SC2 forum that just ruins every legitmate discussion. If anything that goes against all the progress weve seen from blizzard over the last year.
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EPT
