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I like the ideas of this patch. Can't wait to see the consequences.
I'm worried about 2 points :
• Hatch + spine buff will buff spine attack cheeses, hard to counter at low level. It looks counterproductive considering the intension note.
• Broodlord buff will make stalker resistance harder, driving even more to an Air-PvZ lategame. That's already the case but... even more.
Happy to see things moving from the SC2-dev side.
glhf♪
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people DO remember that disruptors used to have a 1.5 radius along with 145 damage right? It wasn't like protoss dominated during that era..
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On October 22 2024 17:19 angry_maia wrote: people DO remember that disruptors used to have a 1.5 radius along with 145 damage right? It wasn't like protoss dominated during that era.. What you have to remember is that Protoss got dangerously close to winning a Premier tournament when ShoWTimE almost won HomeStory Cup. Something had to be done!
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Always nice to have a patch I don't play the game anymore and I barely watch it but I cannot help thinking as a biaised zerg the hellion blue flame two shotting workers is a very bad idea. The protoss energy recharge seems pretty bad as well
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On October 22 2024 17:19 angry_maia wrote: people DO remember that disruptors used to have a 1.5 radius along with 145 damage right? It wasn't like protoss dominated during that era..
Disruptors weren't nerfed because of tournament results, they were nerfed because everyone hates playing against them at every level below that.
The same logic was used for nerfing Widow Mines which everyone (except a few of us here on TL) celebrated.
The balance council doesn't seem to care about balancing around the top level. That much should be incredibly clear to everyone at this point. These changes are directed towards GM level and lower.
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Liberator
Advanced Ballistics effect changed from providing +2 range in Defender mode to increasing the radius in Defender mode from 5 to 6.25 (56% area increase).
So basically Libs have 0,75 shorter range but a huuuuuge radius. That seems like a crazy buff and is going to be even more obnoxious for Stalker / Queens to defend
I do like the Shield battery change. You can now warp in insta Storm Templar again when you have some batteries prepped.
Overall I agree with most of you. The goal is to restrict camping and then proceding to buff all camping structures seems weird...
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As a Protoss player, idk how this will effect the pro-level, but for my not great level in Diamond, this patch will make my life much harder...
Terrans at my level often make blind turrets which makes stargate openings weaker, now every single terran can do this and not have to worry too much about the cost, get the money back and then if they need them later on, spam them out knowing that they're basically banking money...
And then the combination of the removal of overcharge and immortal nerf means holding any kind of aggression early on from terran or zerg has become way harder. It's something that can go eitherway at the moment as it is, just down to control and mechanics... so now this just tips that much further into the hand of terrans and zergs...
Then assuming you live long enough the number one problem for Protosses is dealing with either ghost bio, or hydra lurker armies. Hydras got a buff, which to me just makes tempest based transitions to deal with lurkers a non-starter, despite the change I think... disruptors got a nerf to damage, meaning you can't really use them as a crux and while I hate the unit protoss needs something that can't just be hard countered.. I don't really see the small buff to collosus really making any changes?
PvP is pretty decent at the moment, and this balance patch should make PvP more interesting, but it kinda feels like every other matchup just got harder... and with the battery change and immortal nerf, basically every opening now for P has to change
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Change is definitely necessary but as others have pointed out almost all of these seem objectively bad.
Protoss somehow makes it out with neutral changes or nerfs while the other two get mostly neutral and buffs?
The energy thing is just going to enable some oracle cheese and not much else. Might as well reinstate kaydarin amulet but only defensively warped in near nexus. Disruptors no longer 1 shotting marauders/roaches seems to be a sizable nerf. The radius is the same and the unit used to cost 1 less supply and we still didn't have many p wins.
2 shotting workers with blue flame is something nobody wants. +3 with blue flame is acceptable to do it but outside of that that one can be deleted. Thor change pretty unnecessary. It can already do well vs mass air, not to mention Terran also has another aoe option ontop of man with gun and vikings. Call down supply change is novel and welcomed. about the only truly good proposed change on the list. Liberators are already a cementing win condition late game regardless of their range or coverage. Making them able to siege even faster is borderline trolling.
Why not just increase queen energy regen slightly and limit it to one per hatchery. No need for the cost increase you could probably even go the other way. We've had a group of 4+ queens waddling around being catch all early game defense for well over a decade now, seems like perfect time for a change.
The changes contradicting the goals is the real head scratcher here.
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Northern Ireland22336 Posts
On October 22 2024 17:56 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2024 17:19 angry_maia wrote: people DO remember that disruptors used to have a 1.5 radius along with 145 damage right? It wasn't like protoss dominated during that era.. Disruptors weren't nerfed because of tournament results, they were nerfed because everyone hates playing against them at every level below that. The same logic was used for nerfing Widow Mines which everyone (except a few of us here on TL) celebrated. The balance council doesn't seem to care about balancing around the top level. That much should be incredibly clear to everyone at this point. These changes are directed towards GM level and lower. Nah I think they’re trying to balance doing both, but for whatever reason don’t have good ways or ideas to do it with Protoss
Zerg hatch/Queen costs may make a slight difference with how optimised pro builds are for example, I can’t see that permeating down too far. Likewise how many players are going to actually make much use of the hydra dash (someone on Reddit said it should be called slither, or something like ‘explosive musculature’ and I heartily agree) off a duration of 0.7 seconds. I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone who isn’t Dark make microbial shroud work consistently, so I think some of those are scaled at that high competitive level
I think there’s the genesis of something here, the missing piece of the puzzle is to do what they’ve done elsewhere and give Protoss another toy to a non-niche or easily integrated niche unit
Part 1 is this energy booster, I think many a theorycrafter has proposed it, I quite like it. I think it may augment Oracles, and to a lesser degree Phoenixes, they can top up their reserves and have that little bit more staying power.
Part 2 I think is give the Sentry some kind of offensively minded ability to augment your army. Could be movement speed, attack speed, whatever. It would dovetail well with this energy boost proposed change
I’d be in favour of just removing the energy requirement from graviton beam altogether. They’re one of Protoss’ high-skill APM sinks as it is and require direct control to do damage, do they need to have that energy requirement?
There are very few harassment-focused units in the game that you can catch your opponent completely with their pants down and have the damage you do be capped in such a way. Protoss have 2 of them, I think it makes sense in the case of Oracles as they have so much other utility, so having to make decisions on energy use I think adds some tactical complexity.
Plus the game in general has sped up so much, including devastating harassment options so maybe making that tweak to phoenixes brings them a bit more into line with how the game has evolved
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On October 22 2024 18:45 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2024 17:56 Vindicare605 wrote:On October 22 2024 17:19 angry_maia wrote: people DO remember that disruptors used to have a 1.5 radius along with 145 damage right? It wasn't like protoss dominated during that era.. Disruptors weren't nerfed because of tournament results, they were nerfed because everyone hates playing against them at every level below that. The same logic was used for nerfing Widow Mines which everyone (except a few of us here on TL) celebrated. The balance council doesn't seem to care about balancing around the top level. That much should be incredibly clear to everyone at this point. These changes are directed towards GM level and lower. Nah I think they’re trying to balance doing both, but for whatever reason don’t have good ways or ideas to do it with Protoss Zerg hatch/Queen costs may make a slight difference with how optimised pro builds are for example, I can’t see that permeating down too far. Likewise how many players are going to actually make much use of the hydra dash (someone on Reddit said it should be called slither, or something like ‘explosive musculature’ and I heartily agree) off a duration of 0.7 seconds. I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone who isn’t Dark make microbial shroud work consistently, so I think some of those are scaled at that high competitive level I think there’s the genesis of something here, the missing piece of the puzzle is to do what they’ve done elsewhere and give Protoss another toy to a non-niche or easily integrated niche unit Part 1 is this energy booster, I think many a theorycrafter has proposed it, I quite like it. I think it may augment Oracles, and to a lesser degree Phoenixes, they can top up their reserves and have that little bit more staying power. Part 2 I think is give the Sentry some kind of offensively minded ability to augment your army. Could be movement speed, attack speed, whatever. It would dovetail well with this energy boost proposed change I’d be in favour of just removing the energy requirement from graviton beam altogether. They’re one of Protoss’ high-skill APM sinks as it is and require direct control to do damage, do they need to have that energy requirement? There are very few harassment-focused units in the game that you can catch your opponent completely with their pants down and have the damage you do be capped in such a way. Protoss have 2 of them, I think it makes sense in the case of Oracles as they have so much other utility, so having to make decisions on energy use I think adds some tactical complexity. Plus the game in general has sped up so much, including devastating harassment options so maybe making that tweak to phoenixes brings them a bit more into line with how the game has evolved
Removing Energy from Phoenix is a non-starter IMO. Mass Phoenix needs downsides. Worker harass PvX and everything PvP. Whats there to stop Phoenix in PvP?
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On October 22 2024 18:56 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2024 18:45 WombaT wrote:On October 22 2024 17:56 Vindicare605 wrote:On October 22 2024 17:19 angry_maia wrote: people DO remember that disruptors used to have a 1.5 radius along with 145 damage right? It wasn't like protoss dominated during that era.. Disruptors weren't nerfed because of tournament results, they were nerfed because everyone hates playing against them at every level below that. The same logic was used for nerfing Widow Mines which everyone (except a few of us here on TL) celebrated. The balance council doesn't seem to care about balancing around the top level. That much should be incredibly clear to everyone at this point. These changes are directed towards GM level and lower. Nah I think they’re trying to balance doing both, but for whatever reason don’t have good ways or ideas to do it with Protoss Zerg hatch/Queen costs may make a slight difference with how optimised pro builds are for example, I can’t see that permeating down too far. Likewise how many players are going to actually make much use of the hydra dash (someone on Reddit said it should be called slither, or something like ‘explosive musculature’ and I heartily agree) off a duration of 0.7 seconds. I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone who isn’t Dark make microbial shroud work consistently, so I think some of those are scaled at that high competitive level I think there’s the genesis of something here, the missing piece of the puzzle is to do what they’ve done elsewhere and give Protoss another toy to a non-niche or easily integrated niche unit Part 1 is this energy booster, I think many a theorycrafter has proposed it, I quite like it. I think it may augment Oracles, and to a lesser degree Phoenixes, they can top up their reserves and have that little bit more staying power. Part 2 I think is give the Sentry some kind of offensively minded ability to augment your army. Could be movement speed, attack speed, whatever. It would dovetail well with this energy boost proposed change I’d be in favour of just removing the energy requirement from graviton beam altogether. They’re one of Protoss’ high-skill APM sinks as it is and require direct control to do damage, do they need to have that energy requirement? There are very few harassment-focused units in the game that you can catch your opponent completely with their pants down and have the damage you do be capped in such a way. Protoss have 2 of them, I think it makes sense in the case of Oracles as they have so much other utility, so having to make decisions on energy use I think adds some tactical complexity. Plus the game in general has sped up so much, including devastating harassment options so maybe making that tweak to phoenixes brings them a bit more into line with how the game has evolved Removing Energy from Phoenix is a non-starter IMO. Mass Phoenix needs downsides. Worker harass PvX and everything PvP. Whats there to stop Phoenix in PvP?
Ideally, Stalkers and Void Rays should be able to counter Phoenixes in PvP since they are both core combat units and not harassment units but Stalkers suck without Blink since they have to be balanced around Warp Gate, and Void Rays are just a shit unit design.
So Phoenixes exploit a hole in the Protoss roster, that doesnt really exist in any other match up since Terran air units aren't mobile enough to evade Stalkers effectively and Phoenixes counter Mutalisks.
So what we're left with is Phoenixes having a weakness they shouldn't have against Terran and Zerg because they'd be too oppressive in their mirror match and they're only oppressive in their mirror match because of other awful unit and mechanic designs in the Protoss design.
Fun how it always goes back to the same places.
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Northern Ireland22336 Posts
On October 22 2024 18:56 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2024 18:45 WombaT wrote:On October 22 2024 17:56 Vindicare605 wrote:On October 22 2024 17:19 angry_maia wrote: people DO remember that disruptors used to have a 1.5 radius along with 145 damage right? It wasn't like protoss dominated during that era.. Disruptors weren't nerfed because of tournament results, they were nerfed because everyone hates playing against them at every level below that. The same logic was used for nerfing Widow Mines which everyone (except a few of us here on TL) celebrated. The balance council doesn't seem to care about balancing around the top level. That much should be incredibly clear to everyone at this point. These changes are directed towards GM level and lower. Nah I think they’re trying to balance doing both, but for whatever reason don’t have good ways or ideas to do it with Protoss Zerg hatch/Queen costs may make a slight difference with how optimised pro builds are for example, I can’t see that permeating down too far. Likewise how many players are going to actually make much use of the hydra dash (someone on Reddit said it should be called slither, or something like ‘explosive musculature’ and I heartily agree) off a duration of 0.7 seconds. I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone who isn’t Dark make microbial shroud work consistently, so I think some of those are scaled at that high competitive level I think there’s the genesis of something here, the missing piece of the puzzle is to do what they’ve done elsewhere and give Protoss another toy to a non-niche or easily integrated niche unit Part 1 is this energy booster, I think many a theorycrafter has proposed it, I quite like it. I think it may augment Oracles, and to a lesser degree Phoenixes, they can top up their reserves and have that little bit more staying power. Part 2 I think is give the Sentry some kind of offensively minded ability to augment your army. Could be movement speed, attack speed, whatever. It would dovetail well with this energy boost proposed change I’d be in favour of just removing the energy requirement from graviton beam altogether. They’re one of Protoss’ high-skill APM sinks as it is and require direct control to do damage, do they need to have that energy requirement? There are very few harassment-focused units in the game that you can catch your opponent completely with their pants down and have the damage you do be capped in such a way. Protoss have 2 of them, I think it makes sense in the case of Oracles as they have so much other utility, so having to make decisions on energy use I think adds some tactical complexity. Plus the game in general has sped up so much, including devastating harassment options so maybe making that tweak to phoenixes brings them a bit more into line with how the game has evolved Removing Energy from Phoenix is a non-starter IMO. Mass Phoenix needs downsides. Worker harass PvX and everything PvP. Whats there to stop Phoenix in PvP? Certainly a valid concern, ideally other units. The Phoenix swings from being possibly my favourite unit, to one of my least as things scale. I’m not sure it’s really their energy that’s the thing pushing mass phoenix out of the meta in PvP, but if I am wrong and we see mass phoenix again, revert my (completely hypothetical) change
Alternatively, we could lower the cast cost, but add a channel cost on top of that. Maybe that’s a bit more elegant
That way you could disengage without burning energy to the same degree, but there is still an associated cost
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Northern Ireland22336 Posts
On October 22 2024 19:15 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2024 18:56 Harris1st wrote:On October 22 2024 18:45 WombaT wrote:On October 22 2024 17:56 Vindicare605 wrote:On October 22 2024 17:19 angry_maia wrote: people DO remember that disruptors used to have a 1.5 radius along with 145 damage right? It wasn't like protoss dominated during that era.. Disruptors weren't nerfed because of tournament results, they were nerfed because everyone hates playing against them at every level below that. The same logic was used for nerfing Widow Mines which everyone (except a few of us here on TL) celebrated. The balance council doesn't seem to care about balancing around the top level. That much should be incredibly clear to everyone at this point. These changes are directed towards GM level and lower. Nah I think they’re trying to balance doing both, but for whatever reason don’t have good ways or ideas to do it with Protoss Zerg hatch/Queen costs may make a slight difference with how optimised pro builds are for example, I can’t see that permeating down too far. Likewise how many players are going to actually make much use of the hydra dash (someone on Reddit said it should be called slither, or something like ‘explosive musculature’ and I heartily agree) off a duration of 0.7 seconds. I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone who isn’t Dark make microbial shroud work consistently, so I think some of those are scaled at that high competitive level I think there’s the genesis of something here, the missing piece of the puzzle is to do what they’ve done elsewhere and give Protoss another toy to a non-niche or easily integrated niche unit Part 1 is this energy booster, I think many a theorycrafter has proposed it, I quite like it. I think it may augment Oracles, and to a lesser degree Phoenixes, they can top up their reserves and have that little bit more staying power. Part 2 I think is give the Sentry some kind of offensively minded ability to augment your army. Could be movement speed, attack speed, whatever. It would dovetail well with this energy boost proposed change I’d be in favour of just removing the energy requirement from graviton beam altogether. They’re one of Protoss’ high-skill APM sinks as it is and require direct control to do damage, do they need to have that energy requirement? There are very few harassment-focused units in the game that you can catch your opponent completely with their pants down and have the damage you do be capped in such a way. Protoss have 2 of them, I think it makes sense in the case of Oracles as they have so much other utility, so having to make decisions on energy use I think adds some tactical complexity. Plus the game in general has sped up so much, including devastating harassment options so maybe making that tweak to phoenixes brings them a bit more into line with how the game has evolved Removing Energy from Phoenix is a non-starter IMO. Mass Phoenix needs downsides. Worker harass PvX and everything PvP. Whats there to stop Phoenix in PvP? Ideally, Stalkers and Void Rays should be able to counter Phoenixes in PvP since they are both core combat units and not harassment units but Stalkers suck without Blink since they have to be balanced around Warp Gate, and Void Rays are just a shit unit design. So Phoenixes exploit a hole in the Protoss roster, that doesnt really exist in any other match up since Terran air units aren't mobile enough to evade Stalkers effectively and Phoenixes counter Mutalisks. So what we're left with is Phoenixes having a weakness they shouldn't have against Terran and Zerg because they'd be too oppressive in their mirror match and they're only oppressive in their mirror match because of other awful unit and mechanic designs in the Protoss design. Fun how it always goes back to the same places. I’m almost starting to see a pattern!
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On October 22 2024 19:15 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2024 18:56 Harris1st wrote:On October 22 2024 18:45 WombaT wrote:On October 22 2024 17:56 Vindicare605 wrote:On October 22 2024 17:19 angry_maia wrote: people DO remember that disruptors used to have a 1.5 radius along with 145 damage right? It wasn't like protoss dominated during that era.. Disruptors weren't nerfed because of tournament results, they were nerfed because everyone hates playing against them at every level below that. The same logic was used for nerfing Widow Mines which everyone (except a few of us here on TL) celebrated. The balance council doesn't seem to care about balancing around the top level. That much should be incredibly clear to everyone at this point. These changes are directed towards GM level and lower. Nah I think they’re trying to balance doing both, but for whatever reason don’t have good ways or ideas to do it with Protoss Zerg hatch/Queen costs may make a slight difference with how optimised pro builds are for example, I can’t see that permeating down too far. Likewise how many players are going to actually make much use of the hydra dash (someone on Reddit said it should be called slither, or something like ‘explosive musculature’ and I heartily agree) off a duration of 0.7 seconds. I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone who isn’t Dark make microbial shroud work consistently, so I think some of those are scaled at that high competitive level I think there’s the genesis of something here, the missing piece of the puzzle is to do what they’ve done elsewhere and give Protoss another toy to a non-niche or easily integrated niche unit Part 1 is this energy booster, I think many a theorycrafter has proposed it, I quite like it. I think it may augment Oracles, and to a lesser degree Phoenixes, they can top up their reserves and have that little bit more staying power. Part 2 I think is give the Sentry some kind of offensively minded ability to augment your army. Could be movement speed, attack speed, whatever. It would dovetail well with this energy boost proposed change I’d be in favour of just removing the energy requirement from graviton beam altogether. They’re one of Protoss’ high-skill APM sinks as it is and require direct control to do damage, do they need to have that energy requirement? There are very few harassment-focused units in the game that you can catch your opponent completely with their pants down and have the damage you do be capped in such a way. Protoss have 2 of them, I think it makes sense in the case of Oracles as they have so much other utility, so having to make decisions on energy use I think adds some tactical complexity. Plus the game in general has sped up so much, including devastating harassment options so maybe making that tweak to phoenixes brings them a bit more into line with how the game has evolved Removing Energy from Phoenix is a non-starter IMO. Mass Phoenix needs downsides. Worker harass PvX and everything PvP. Whats there to stop Phoenix in PvP? Ideally, Stalkers and Void Rays should be able to counter Phoenixes in PvP since they are both core combat units and not harassment units but Stalkers suck without Blink since they have to be balanced around Warp Gate, and Void Rays are just a shit unit design. So Phoenixes exploit a hole in the Protoss roster, that doesnt really exist in any other match up since Terran air units aren't mobile enough to evade Stalkers effectively and Phoenixes counter Mutalisks. So what we're left with is Phoenixes having a weakness they shouldn't have against Terran and Zerg because they'd be too oppressive in their mirror match and they're only oppressive in their mirror match because of other awful unit and mechanic designs in the Protoss design. Fun how it always goes back to the same places.
Exactly. But even Stalkers with Blink would be quite useless. Imagine my 8-10 Phoenixes come raid your mineral lines. You have some Blink Stalkers there and warp in some additional. Now I lift all your Stalkers and can still kill probes or even go for the Stalkers directly if numbers favor me. HT's would also be useless since no more feedback. This would spiral out of control quite quickly and you either have to go back with the complete army or go allin.
Anyway. I do like they are trying some bigger changes with the patch, but I don't like half of them. I'd wish for some additional change for the 400/400 meme unit. A new Spell! Call it "Anchor" and it makes the unit fortified upping Armor or Shields and unmovable for ~10 sec with a ~2min CD
EDIT: Or "Revert" putting the unit back where it was 10 sec ago
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United States1741 Posts
Changing the price of the hatchery after 14 years ranks among some of the most heinous offenses I've ever seen. And, not because it will alter all Z builds, but because that number (300 minerals) has some sanctity after nearly 15 years.
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United Kingdom38135 Posts
Part 1 is this energy booster, I think many a theorycrafter has proposed it, I quite like it. I think it may augment Oracles, and to a lesser degree Phoenixes, they can top up their reserves and have that little bit more staying power.
Looking at some early PTR games one of the strongest applications of the energy booster may just be juicing sentries up. Astrea and Harstem are really making them look very useful.
Also passively helps out some protoss options like phoenix openings as you can get out on the map more aggressively while being able to stall out at home if you're unlucky with when you're out on the map.
It might not be strong enough yet, we will see, but I think it's a much more interesting idea than just press the panic overcharge button
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