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Khalimaroth
France70 Posts
I'm worried about 2 points : • Hatch + spine buff will buff spine attack cheeses, hard to counter at low level. It looks counterproductive considering the intension note. • Broodlord buff will make stalker resistance harder, driving even more to an Air-PvZ lategame. That's already the case but... even more. Happy to see things moving from the SC2-dev side. glhf♪ | ||
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angry_maia
315 Posts
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MJG
United Kingdom1233 Posts
On October 22 2024 17:19 angry_maia wrote: people DO remember that disruptors used to have a 1.5 radius along with 145 damage right? It wasn't like protoss dominated during that era.. What you have to remember is that Protoss got dangerously close to winning a Premier tournament when ShoWTimE almost won HomeStory Cup. Something had to be done!  | ||
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stilt
France2750 Posts
I don't play the game anymore and I barely watch it but I cannot help thinking as a biaised zerg the hellion blue flame two shotting workers is a very bad idea. The protoss energy recharge seems pretty bad as well | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16080 Posts
On October 22 2024 17:19 angry_maia wrote: people DO remember that disruptors used to have a 1.5 radius along with 145 damage right? It wasn't like protoss dominated during that era.. Disruptors weren't nerfed because of tournament results, they were nerfed because everyone hates playing against them at every level below that. The same logic was used for nerfing Widow Mines which everyone (except a few of us here on TL) celebrated. The balance council doesn't seem to care about balancing around the top level. That much should be incredibly clear to everyone at this point. These changes are directed towards GM level and lower. | ||
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Harris1st
Germany6956 Posts
Advanced Ballistics effect changed from providing +2 range in Defender mode to increasing the radius in Defender mode from 5 to 6.25 (56% area increase). So basically Libs have 0,75 shorter range but a huuuuuge radius. That seems like a crazy buff and is going to be even more obnoxious for Stalker / Queens to defend I do like the Shield battery change. You can now warp in insta Storm Templar again when you have some batteries prepped. Overall I agree with most of you. The goal is to restrict camping and then proceding to buff all camping structures seems weird... | ||
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baldgye
United Kingdom1092 Posts
Terrans at my level often make blind turrets which makes stargate openings weaker, now every single terran can do this and not have to worry too much about the cost, get the money back and then if they need them later on, spam them out knowing that they're basically banking money... And then the combination of the removal of overcharge and immortal nerf means holding any kind of aggression early on from terran or zerg has become way harder. It's something that can go eitherway at the moment as it is, just down to control and mechanics... so now this just tips that much further into the hand of terrans and zergs... Then assuming you live long enough the number one problem for Protosses is dealing with either ghost bio, or hydra lurker armies. Hydras got a buff, which to me just makes tempest based transitions to deal with lurkers a non-starter, despite the change I think... disruptors got a nerf to damage, meaning you can't really use them as a crux and while I hate the unit protoss needs something that can't just be hard countered.. I don't really see the small buff to collosus really making any changes? PvP is pretty decent at the moment, and this balance patch should make PvP more interesting, but it kinda feels like every other matchup just got harder... and with the battery change and immortal nerf, basically every opening now for P has to change | ||
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Agh
United States987 Posts
Protoss somehow makes it out with neutral changes or nerfs while the other two get mostly neutral and buffs? The energy thing is just going to enable some oracle cheese and not much else. Might as well reinstate kaydarin amulet but only defensively warped in near nexus. Disruptors no longer 1 shotting marauders/roaches seems to be a sizable nerf. The radius is the same and the unit used to cost 1 less supply and we still didn't have many p wins. 2 shotting workers with blue flame is something nobody wants. +3 with blue flame is acceptable to do it but outside of that that one can be deleted. Thor change pretty unnecessary. It can already do well vs mass air, not to mention Terran also has another aoe option ontop of man with gun and vikings. Call down supply change is novel and welcomed. about the only truly good proposed change on the list. Liberators are already a cementing win condition late game regardless of their range or coverage. Making them able to siege even faster is borderline trolling. Why not just increase queen energy regen slightly and limit it to one per hatchery. No need for the cost increase you could probably even go the other way. We've had a group of 4+ queens waddling around being catch all early game defense for well over a decade now, seems like perfect time for a change. The changes contradicting the goals is the real head scratcher here. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25698 Posts
On October 22 2024 17:56 Vindicare605 wrote: Disruptors weren't nerfed because of tournament results, they were nerfed because everyone hates playing against them at every level below that. The same logic was used for nerfing Widow Mines which everyone (except a few of us here on TL) celebrated. The balance council doesn't seem to care about balancing around the top level. That much should be incredibly clear to everyone at this point. These changes are directed towards GM level and lower. Nah I think they’re trying to balance doing both, but for whatever reason don’t have good ways or ideas to do it with Protoss Zerg hatch/Queen costs may make a slight difference with how optimised pro builds are for example, I can’t see that permeating down too far. Likewise how many players are going to actually make much use of the hydra dash (someone on Reddit said it should be called slither, or something like ‘explosive musculature’ and I heartily agree) off a duration of 0.7 seconds. I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone who isn’t Dark make microbial shroud work consistently, so I think some of those are scaled at that high competitive level I think there’s the genesis of something here, the missing piece of the puzzle is to do what they’ve done elsewhere and give Protoss another toy to a non-niche or easily integrated niche unit Part 1 is this energy booster, I think many a theorycrafter has proposed it, I quite like it. I think it may augment Oracles, and to a lesser degree Phoenixes, they can top up their reserves and have that little bit more staying power. Part 2 I think is give the Sentry some kind of offensively minded ability to augment your army. Could be movement speed, attack speed, whatever. It would dovetail well with this energy boost proposed change I’d be in favour of just removing the energy requirement from graviton beam altogether. They’re one of Protoss’ high-skill APM sinks as it is and require direct control to do damage, do they need to have that energy requirement? There are very few harassment-focused units in the game that you can catch your opponent completely with their pants down and have the damage you do be capped in such a way. Protoss have 2 of them, I think it makes sense in the case of Oracles as they have so much other utility, so having to make decisions on energy use I think adds some tactical complexity. Plus the game in general has sped up so much, including devastating harassment options so maybe making that tweak to phoenixes brings them a bit more into line with how the game has evolved | ||
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Harris1st
Germany6956 Posts
On October 22 2024 18:45 WombaT wrote: Nah I think they’re trying to balance doing both, but for whatever reason don’t have good ways or ideas to do it with Protoss Zerg hatch/Queen costs may make a slight difference with how optimised pro builds are for example, I can’t see that permeating down too far. Likewise how many players are going to actually make much use of the hydra dash (someone on Reddit said it should be called slither, or something like ‘explosive musculature’ and I heartily agree) off a duration of 0.7 seconds. I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone who isn’t Dark make microbial shroud work consistently, so I think some of those are scaled at that high competitive level I think there’s the genesis of something here, the missing piece of the puzzle is to do what they’ve done elsewhere and give Protoss another toy to a non-niche or easily integrated niche unit Part 1 is this energy booster, I think many a theorycrafter has proposed it, I quite like it. I think it may augment Oracles, and to a lesser degree Phoenixes, they can top up their reserves and have that little bit more staying power. Part 2 I think is give the Sentry some kind of offensively minded ability to augment your army. Could be movement speed, attack speed, whatever. It would dovetail well with this energy boost proposed change I’d be in favour of just removing the energy requirement from graviton beam altogether. They’re one of Protoss’ high-skill APM sinks as it is and require direct control to do damage, do they need to have that energy requirement? There are very few harassment-focused units in the game that you can catch your opponent completely with their pants down and have the damage you do be capped in such a way. Protoss have 2 of them, I think it makes sense in the case of Oracles as they have so much other utility, so having to make decisions on energy use I think adds some tactical complexity. Plus the game in general has sped up so much, including devastating harassment options so maybe making that tweak to phoenixes brings them a bit more into line with how the game has evolved Removing Energy from Phoenix is a non-starter IMO. Mass Phoenix needs downsides. Worker harass PvX and everything PvP. Whats there to stop Phoenix in PvP? | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16080 Posts
On October 22 2024 18:56 Harris1st wrote: Removing Energy from Phoenix is a non-starter IMO. Mass Phoenix needs downsides. Worker harass PvX and everything PvP. Whats there to stop Phoenix in PvP? Ideally, Stalkers and Void Rays should be able to counter Phoenixes in PvP since they are both core combat units and not harassment units but Stalkers suck without Blink since they have to be balanced around Warp Gate, and Void Rays are just a shit unit design. So Phoenixes exploit a hole in the Protoss roster, that doesnt really exist in any other match up since Terran air units aren't mobile enough to evade Stalkers effectively and Phoenixes counter Mutalisks. So what we're left with is Phoenixes having a weakness they shouldn't have against Terran and Zerg because they'd be too oppressive in their mirror match and they're only oppressive in their mirror match because of other awful unit and mechanic designs in the Protoss design. Fun how it always goes back to the same places. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25698 Posts
On October 22 2024 18:56 Harris1st wrote: Removing Energy from Phoenix is a non-starter IMO. Mass Phoenix needs downsides. Worker harass PvX and everything PvP. Whats there to stop Phoenix in PvP? Certainly a valid concern, ideally other units. The Phoenix swings from being possibly my favourite unit, to one of my least as things scale. I’m not sure it’s really their energy that’s the thing pushing mass phoenix out of the meta in PvP, but if I am wrong and we see mass phoenix again, revert my (completely hypothetical) change Alternatively, we could lower the cast cost, but add a channel cost on top of that. Maybe that’s a bit more elegant That way you could disengage without burning energy to the same degree, but there is still an associated cost | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25698 Posts
On October 22 2024 19:15 Vindicare605 wrote: Ideally, Stalkers and Void Rays should be able to counter Phoenixes in PvP since they are both core combat units and not harassment units but Stalkers suck without Blink since they have to be balanced around Warp Gate, and Void Rays are just a shit unit design. So Phoenixes exploit a hole in the Protoss roster, that doesnt really exist in any other match up since Terran air units aren't mobile enough to evade Stalkers effectively and Phoenixes counter Mutalisks. So what we're left with is Phoenixes having a weakness they shouldn't have against Terran and Zerg because they'd be too oppressive in their mirror match and they're only oppressive in their mirror match because of other awful unit and mechanic designs in the Protoss design. Fun how it always goes back to the same places. I’m almost starting to see a pattern! | ||
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Harris1st
Germany6956 Posts
On October 22 2024 19:15 Vindicare605 wrote: Ideally, Stalkers and Void Rays should be able to counter Phoenixes in PvP since they are both core combat units and not harassment units but Stalkers suck without Blink since they have to be balanced around Warp Gate, and Void Rays are just a shit unit design. So Phoenixes exploit a hole in the Protoss roster, that doesnt really exist in any other match up since Terran air units aren't mobile enough to evade Stalkers effectively and Phoenixes counter Mutalisks. So what we're left with is Phoenixes having a weakness they shouldn't have against Terran and Zerg because they'd be too oppressive in their mirror match and they're only oppressive in their mirror match because of other awful unit and mechanic designs in the Protoss design. Fun how it always goes back to the same places. Exactly. But even Stalkers with Blink would be quite useless. Imagine my 8-10 Phoenixes come raid your mineral lines. You have some Blink Stalkers there and warp in some additional. Now I lift all your Stalkers and can still kill probes or even go for the Stalkers directly if numbers favor me. HT's would also be useless since no more feedback. This would spiral out of control quite quickly and you either have to go back with the complete army or go allin. Anyway. I do like they are trying some bigger changes with the patch, but I don't like half of them. I'd wish for some additional change for the 400/400 meme unit. A new Spell! Call it "Anchor" and it makes the unit fortified upping Armor or Shields and unmovable for ~10 sec with a ~2min CD EDIT: Or "Revert" putting the unit back where it was 10 sec ago | ||
Mizenhauer
United States1889 Posts
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Asha
United Kingdom38256 Posts
Part 1 is this energy booster, I think many a theorycrafter has proposed it, I quite like it. I think it may augment Oracles, and to a lesser degree Phoenixes, they can top up their reserves and have that little bit more staying power. Looking at some early PTR games one of the strongest applications of the energy booster may just be juicing sentries up. Astrea and Harstem are really making them look very useful. Also passively helps out some protoss options like phoenix openings as you can get out on the map more aggressively while being able to stall out at home if you're unlucky with when you're out on the map. It might not be strong enough yet, we will see, but I think it's a much more interesting idea than just press the panic overcharge button | ||
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bulldozer06701
127 Posts
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Charoisaur
Germany15979 Posts
On October 22 2024 08:28 allmotor1 wrote: 25 more minerals is huge? Maybe early game but I feel as the game becomes a macro won't make much difference. Well, with the reduced cost of hatcheries it balances the cost out for the initial Queen but every subsequent Queen will be an additional 25 minerals. In early game Zergs often go to like 8 Queens (at least) which will be an additional 100 minerals spent on 4 bases, which in the early game where everything is so optimized is quite huge. Imagine Engineering bays costing 50 minerals more each, I think it's quite similar | ||
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MJG
United Kingdom1233 Posts
On October 22 2024 21:12 Charoisaur wrote: Well, with the reduced cost of hatcheries it balances the cost out for the initial Queen but every subsequent Queen will be an additional 25 minerals. In early game Zergs often go to like 8 Queens (at least) which will be an additional 100 minerals spent on 4 bases, which in the early game where everything is so optimized is quite huge. Imagine Engineering bays costing 50 minerals more each, I think it's quite similar This is a massive nerf to Elazer. His Elazerlord count will have to be one fewer! | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10348 Posts
Seems most are very mixed/worried about these changes, but I'm actually really liking the idea behind most of them, balance tweaking aside! The dev comments are much better and more accurately cover the impacts of the change Many changes are more targetted/nuanced than usual and consider several different situations it'd impact The ideas are more bold than usual, a couple are weird and seem unnecessary like the Hydra dash, but most ideas I really like! (Again, not focusing on the balance too much) Want to just say that I suggested several of these ideas before, so it's really cool to see them being tried out: -Replacing Battery Overcharge with boosting a unit/structure with energy, AND compensating by giving Battery more HP/Shield! (I haven't tried PTR but it'd be even better if this has no global cooldown, so Protoss has a macro mechanic that scales into lategame!) My suggestion also included slightlyy buffing Battery heal rate (as in using its energy faster), but getting the energy for 2 FF, 1 storm, or 1 stasis trap can indeed be potent enough early game to potentially replace Battery Overcharge! 2 FF could be enough to delay their push by roughly the same amount of time as Battery Overcharge lasts anyways! This could be really cool because this could also allow HTs to be warped in slightly later, being able to energy charge them to be ready for Storm, which could allow for some new HT timings! This could potentially buff the option to take far away or forward expos, as warping in HTs around the map to zone would be slightly easier as you can energy charge them right away! More spread out gameplay is good! -Keep MS identity, and just buff its dps cus it was so weak -Making Colossus closer to a soft-counter or response to the Ghost (Colossus should > Ghost because Ghost > HT and HT > Viking and Viking > Colossus), though they did it by making EMP less effective, they could go farther by making Ghost Light so there could be more interesting Adept/Phoenix usage in comps, and they can't clump as recklessly vs Banelings -Buffing Blue Flame again - I had suggested to make Blue Flame upgrade give +2 (+3 vs Light) instead of +5 vs Light so that it's less specialized and just slightly less useless when engaging Marauder/Stalker/Roach, but pushing its strength against Light units is also a valid direction. Making Hellions potent against Marines again will help Mech open TvT without being so susceptible to early aggression. Hellions being more viable vs chargelots and mass gateway styles, and not needing to resort to Hellbat mode as much, will also be a great help in addressing one of Mech's biggest issues in LotV TvP. Unlike Hellbats, Hellions are much more active and microable and chargelots can still split up, so this won't be an unhealthy change! For the general design, Marines were way too good mineral units compared to Mech's Hellion, so buffing the Hellion will help address one of Mech's drawbacks and round out some areas of its play to make it more viable overall. Yes, +10 vs Light was OP in WoL 2011 but times are different, let's try this now that there have been many nerfs to Mech playstyle overall (LotV economy changes, Raven becoming more of a Bio spellcaster than Mech, Vipers, Disruptors, Interference Matrix, etc.). I understand that it might seem inconsistent to nerf WM drops and Disruptors just to buff Hellions - but Blue Flame is a Factory tech upgrade, and naturally will be more of an investment to Bio players. Whereas WM drops were effective without even needing Drilling Claws. -Reverting Immortal cost to 250. Coupling it with a slight dps nerf seems fine vs Zerg, it will also help Mech slightly. -Change Hatch to 275 and make Queen 175. This also slightly increases the effectiveness of getting macro hatches!! -Reverting Disruptor to 1.5 radius is good for a 4 supply unit. Lessening the potential of 1-shot kills and requiring more shots, and making it slightly more effective vs small fast units is a good idea, and slightly less effective vs big slow units like Ravagers or Mech. Other ideas in the patch that interest me: -Salvageable turrets/sensor towers, and cheaper but also weaker sensor towers. I love this!!! I understand the worries about if it might accidentally increase camping potential, we'll have to see. But the idea of promoting Turrets/Sensor towers for Terran pushes is something that should help Mech especially more than Bio to move around and be aggressive/active on the map! Positional play is not camping! This also helps make up for Auto Turret being changed away from a long-duration weak turret that could help with pushes.This could be huge for Mech and I'm super excited to try it out! -PF armor being reduced, i don't think this is necessary, Marines and Lings are strong enough against it, but I suppose that Zealots/Stalkers were too weak against it without Immortals to help. Maybe the HP can be increased by 100 to make up for it, or maybe it's fine. -Liberator losing slight range for more radius - I like this direction! However, it only loses 0.75 effective range while gaining 56% AOE, that's a MASSIVE increase to its upfront dps potential! I'm worried this will also decrease the counterplay for Stalkers and such to be able to maneuver around them, and make upfront engagements even more devastating. I don't think the radius needs to be increased this much! Maybe just increase the radius to 6 max? -Thor explosive payload is interesting, I will miss the zoning ability of it vs Mutas and using it to punish clumped harass. However, if it will be much more usable in other situations that might be worth giving that classic interaction up. It has WAY more splash, so this would be punishing for many air units, and it might end up being very potent vs clearing Interceptors. I'm curious to try this out, but at the same time I'd prefer it to keep its range to be 9 in exchange for slightly less dps. I agree with Ultras being stuck less, Broodlings getting some of their strength back, Microbial Shroud lingering on units so they can dodge storms (now it's more of an actual shroud!), decreasing Spore HP, and allowing Calldown Supply to increase a depot HP to 500 instantly will be fun for players of all skills, and give a slight strategic decision on how to use it - it might be worth bolstering the depots at your walls now instead of just trying to hide them from danger! Overall really excited for these changes and the willingness to buff positional Mech play and giving Mech back some of its power! The biggest things that excite me is being able to salvage and be more active with Turrets/Sensor towers, Mech regaining a strong mineral dump unit able to round out many aspects of play, and the Energy Overchage idea + stronger Batteries which will allow for more versatile and creative play! Slightly nerfing mass Queen, camping with Libs, rebuffing Disruptors, are all good too! Just hope that the balance for things will be OK before things are finalized! | ||
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