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On November 12 2024 04:29 Antithesis wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2024 03:31 Ciaus237 wrote:On November 12 2024 03:01 ejozl wrote:
Speed upg, frenzy, 25 mins cheaper, it became smaller as well, and they want it to push things away.
I guess it's not rly overtuned but it doesn't need these silly buffs, it's a perfectly fine unit.
Just make upgrades add +4 which it should've always had since lotv. It was not a perfectly fine unit lmao. It was clunky as hell, and the "ultras into lose" transition meme did not appear out of nowhere. Besides, it's not like Zerg is doing well anywhere below top 10 level anyway, so making the clunky stuff a bit nicer is hardly going to hurt. Exactly. Also, it must be remembered that ultras got a serious speed nerf in the present patch, so that, according to the council, they can more easily be dealt with by marines and marauders. As Artosis has rightly pointed out, this is a questionable approach, because melee units have to be faster than ranged units or else they will simply be kited to death. Besides, it is ridiculous that one of zerg's T3 units should officially be counterable by terran's T1-1.5 units. Imagine battlecruisers being countered by ling/roach.
Well, apparently Zergs don't want their T3 units be countered by other tier 3 units either as they rallied for Ghost nerfs. 3 supply Ghosts that need 4 snipes per Ultralisk that are also able to cancel the snipe by running away are hardly adequate to counter Ultras.
So Zergs don't want their ultras be countered by tier 1 units, by tier 2 units or by tier 3 units? One of them has to counter Ultras. If Zergs don't want Ghosts to counter Ultras, the ability needs to be transferred to other units
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On November 12 2024 05:08 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2024 04:29 Antithesis wrote:On November 12 2024 03:31 Ciaus237 wrote:On November 12 2024 03:01 ejozl wrote:
Speed upg, frenzy, 25 mins cheaper, it became smaller as well, and they want it to push things away.
I guess it's not rly overtuned but it doesn't need these silly buffs, it's a perfectly fine unit.
Just make upgrades add +4 which it should've always had since lotv. It was not a perfectly fine unit lmao. It was clunky as hell, and the "ultras into lose" transition meme did not appear out of nowhere. Besides, it's not like Zerg is doing well anywhere below top 10 level anyway, so making the clunky stuff a bit nicer is hardly going to hurt. Exactly. Also, it must be remembered that ultras got a serious speed nerf in the present patch, so that, according to the council, they can more easily be dealt with by marines and marauders. As Artosis has rightly pointed out, this is a questionable approach, because melee units have to be faster than ranged units or else they will simply be kited to death. Besides, it is ridiculous that one of zerg's T3 units should officially be counterable by terran's T1-1.5 units. Imagine battlecruisers being countered by ling/roach. Well, apparently Zergs don't want their T3 units be countered by other tier 3 units either as they rallied for Ghost nerfs. 3 supply Ghosts that need 4 snipes per Ultralisk that are also able to cancel the snipe by running away are hardly adequate to counter Ultras.
Ghosts are still an incredibly powerful unit against almost every part of zerg's lategame army compositions, including ultras. It is just that ghosts are now less massable as a catch-all fulfilling a host of roles (combat, snipe, tactical maneuvering, being tanky, forcing detection, EMP) under virtually all circumstances. The ghost nerf is a correction of a blatant imbalance acknowledged by practically every pro who has commented upon it, including the literal world champion who is a terran himself.
So if by counter you mean that the mere presence of ghosts should invalidate the utility of ultras altogether - besides, mind you, that of broodlords as well, while also being strong against nearly everything else - then no, ghosts should not simply "counter" ultras.
Furthermore, there need not and should not be a simple outright counter to everything in the game. The ghost itself is a good example of this. It can be outplayed under the right circumstances, but it is not directly countered by anything in the zerg arsenal.
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Ultralisks are used all the time today. But pretending that already viable units are useless is par for the course for Zergs, which is why hydras have been buffed twice since the balance council took over.
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The power of the ultra is rly that it's only 1 larvae, hence why it was still used in wings and hots despite the terrible stats.
If there is a problem with the ultra it's only because zerg units have gotten so efficient that they are not starved for larvae. It doesn't help with how easy it is to reach max and split the map. This is also why ghosts are "imba", solely due to the fact that you reach maxed scenario all of the time in tvz, which was never the intention of the original sc1. Then we have all the supply increases simply making it easier to reach. The game becomes so boring like this, who here remembers wol and hots late game army sizes? It actually felt epic, whereas now half of your supply is bound up in workers, and the other in units to do a little dance of eeking out efficiency.
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I would have really liked to see SC2 increase its supply cap from 200 to ~225. (Not 250, that's too much.)
Just seems logical because high worker counts is more standard in LotV after the economy changes. Also, because supply costs are slightly higher in SC2 than SC1.
I think it could help improve gameplay for SC2.
Many units or comps may lose efficiency if the deathball gets too big. It gets hard to have all your units shoot and jamming them through chokes becomes more difficult.
So I think that in most cases, the extra 25 supply would lead to a 2ndary army becoming more common (we see this sometimes still), and more small skirmishes around the map.
It might feel like SC2 "deathball" problem is still too prevalent. But everything is relative. Perhaps if we allowed for a little more supply, we'd have more army supply doing things elsewhere. And the "big deathball" we saw ends up feeling less deathball-y relatively.
I also think that positional styles and fortified positions, like Mech, could become more viable. They would still be weaker in the early game as they are now, but they might have a point in the lategame where it becomes significantly more powerful than a non-mech comp. It becomes harder to jam 1 big deathball into a deeply entrenched tankline with turrets and AA. And if you separate your army in 2 to try to split the mech army up, there's enough supply in the mech army for you to split your tanks up while still having dense enough dps to be efficient.
Also, it would allow for even more variety and individuality when it comes to how much you invest into econ vs tech vs army. Maybe seeing 100 worker styles will be slightly more common/viable, and there'd be a bigger contrast to for example Terran on 40 workers with MULEs and a huge army.
25 more max supply isn't a huge enough difference to break things, but those ~10 extra units would still have a noticeable impact on gameplay.
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On November 12 2024 05:51 Antithesis wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2024 05:08 Charoisaur wrote:On November 12 2024 04:29 Antithesis wrote:On November 12 2024 03:31 Ciaus237 wrote:On November 12 2024 03:01 ejozl wrote:
Speed upg, frenzy, 25 mins cheaper, it became smaller as well, and they want it to push things away.
I guess it's not rly overtuned but it doesn't need these silly buffs, it's a perfectly fine unit.
Just make upgrades add +4 which it should've always had since lotv. It was not a perfectly fine unit lmao. It was clunky as hell, and the "ultras into lose" transition meme did not appear out of nowhere. Besides, it's not like Zerg is doing well anywhere below top 10 level anyway, so making the clunky stuff a bit nicer is hardly going to hurt. Exactly. Also, it must be remembered that ultras got a serious speed nerf in the present patch, so that, according to the council, they can more easily be dealt with by marines and marauders. As Artosis has rightly pointed out, this is a questionable approach, because melee units have to be faster than ranged units or else they will simply be kited to death. Besides, it is ridiculous that one of zerg's T3 units should officially be counterable by terran's T1-1.5 units. Imagine battlecruisers being countered by ling/roach. Well, apparently Zergs don't want their T3 units be countered by other tier 3 units either as they rallied for Ghost nerfs. 3 supply Ghosts that need 4 snipes per Ultralisk that are also able to cancel the snipe by running away are hardly adequate to counter Ultras. So if by counter you mean that the mere presence of ghosts should invalidate the utility of ultras altogether - besides, mind you, that of broodlords as well, while also being strong against nearly everything else - then no, ghosts should not simply "counter" ultras. .
Stop with the hyperbole, we both know that this was never the case. Ultras were still continously built in ZvT lategame, even against a terran massing Ghost. If Ghosts do the job of countering Ultras worse, this ability needs to be transferred over to other units.
I get your point that it's bad design when Ghosts also counter every other Zerg unit, but nerfing them means they are worse against Ultras which means other terran units need to do their job as Ultra counters better
Furthermore, there need not and should not be a simple outright counter to everything in the game. The ghost itself is a good example of this. It can be outplayed under the right circumstances, but it is not directly countered by anything in the zerg arsenal.
This is a good point but it only really works for micro units like spellcasters. A pure amove unit like the Ultra leaves little room to outplay it if no unit directly counters it
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Since the nerf of ghost looks like a good step, what about infestator ?
Could we see infested terrans again with the same kind of nerf ?
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Ofc not that's a zerg unit.
In my ideal world we go to 300 supply and make overlords give 6 supply, just to tax the cost of raising the supply. The way we start with more supply in lotv due to 12 worker start also better allows for this. You in general make fewer pylons in lotv because of the extra supply from nexus, and it takes away the protoss ability to spot and be on the map, for terrans to wall off with depots and for zerg to scout with overies on the map.
I think it'd be easier to just lower the mineral fields to 6 on exterior bases though and it would do the same job. It will make mules stronger though in comparison to inject and chrono, though that mightn't be a bad thing.
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On November 12 2024 18:19 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2024 05:51 Antithesis wrote:On November 12 2024 05:08 Charoisaur wrote:On November 12 2024 04:29 Antithesis wrote:On November 12 2024 03:31 Ciaus237 wrote:On November 12 2024 03:01 ejozl wrote:
Speed upg, frenzy, 25 mins cheaper, it became smaller as well, and they want it to push things away.
I guess it's not rly overtuned but it doesn't need these silly buffs, it's a perfectly fine unit.
Just make upgrades add +4 which it should've always had since lotv. It was not a perfectly fine unit lmao. It was clunky as hell, and the "ultras into lose" transition meme did not appear out of nowhere. Besides, it's not like Zerg is doing well anywhere below top 10 level anyway, so making the clunky stuff a bit nicer is hardly going to hurt. Exactly. Also, it must be remembered that ultras got a serious speed nerf in the present patch, so that, according to the council, they can more easily be dealt with by marines and marauders. As Artosis has rightly pointed out, this is a questionable approach, because melee units have to be faster than ranged units or else they will simply be kited to death. Besides, it is ridiculous that one of zerg's T3 units should officially be counterable by terran's T1-1.5 units. Imagine battlecruisers being countered by ling/roach. Well, apparently Zergs don't want their T3 units be countered by other tier 3 units either as they rallied for Ghost nerfs. 3 supply Ghosts that need 4 snipes per Ultralisk that are also able to cancel the snipe by running away are hardly adequate to counter Ultras. So if by counter you mean that the mere presence of ghosts should invalidate the utility of ultras altogether - besides, mind you, that of broodlords as well, while also being strong against nearly everything else - then no, ghosts should not simply "counter" ultras. Furthermore, there need not and should not be a simple outright counter to everything in the game. The ghost itself is a good example of this. It can be outplayed under the right circumstances, but it is not directly countered by anything in the zerg arsenal. A pure amove unit like the Ultra leaves little room to outplay it if no unit directly counters it
This is very obviously false.
A-move melee units and in particular large and clunky a-move melee units like the ultralisk can be outplayed in numerous ways, as you know very well. You can use terrain features, you can create chokes using sim city, planetaries, turrets, autoturrets, or any other sort of physical obstacles, you can use drop micro, you can use air units, you can kite, and so on. All of these things happen all of the time in actual matches. There is in fact hardly a unit type in SC2 which can be outplayed more easily than large melee units like the ultralisk, and this is ignoring the availability of snipe.
I'm not saying another change to the ultra is needed right now (I have seen little impactful ultra play on the new patch), but this argument is just wrong.
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On November 21 2024 00:24 Antithesis wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2024 18:19 Charoisaur wrote:On November 12 2024 05:51 Antithesis wrote:On November 12 2024 05:08 Charoisaur wrote:On November 12 2024 04:29 Antithesis wrote:On November 12 2024 03:31 Ciaus237 wrote:On November 12 2024 03:01 ejozl wrote:
Speed upg, frenzy, 25 mins cheaper, it became smaller as well, and they want it to push things away.
I guess it's not rly overtuned but it doesn't need these silly buffs, it's a perfectly fine unit.
Just make upgrades add +4 which it should've always had since lotv. It was not a perfectly fine unit lmao. It was clunky as hell, and the "ultras into lose" transition meme did not appear out of nowhere. Besides, it's not like Zerg is doing well anywhere below top 10 level anyway, so making the clunky stuff a bit nicer is hardly going to hurt. Exactly. Also, it must be remembered that ultras got a serious speed nerf in the present patch, so that, according to the council, they can more easily be dealt with by marines and marauders. As Artosis has rightly pointed out, this is a questionable approach, because melee units have to be faster than ranged units or else they will simply be kited to death. Besides, it is ridiculous that one of zerg's T3 units should officially be counterable by terran's T1-1.5 units. Imagine battlecruisers being countered by ling/roach. Well, apparently Zergs don't want their T3 units be countered by other tier 3 units either as they rallied for Ghost nerfs. 3 supply Ghosts that need 4 snipes per Ultralisk that are also able to cancel the snipe by running away are hardly adequate to counter Ultras. So if by counter you mean that the mere presence of ghosts should invalidate the utility of ultras altogether - besides, mind you, that of broodlords as well, while also being strong against nearly everything else - then no, ghosts should not simply "counter" ultras. Furthermore, there need not and should not be a simple outright counter to everything in the game. The ghost itself is a good example of this. It can be outplayed under the right circumstances, but it is not directly countered by anything in the zerg arsenal. A pure amove unit like the Ultra leaves little room to outplay it if no unit directly counters it This is very obviously false. A-move melee units and in particular large and clunky a-move melee units like the ultralisk can be outplayed in numerous ways, as you know very well. You can use terrain features, you can create chokes using sim city, planetaries, turrets, autoturrets, or any other sort of physical obstacles, you can use drop micro, you can use air units, you can kite, and so on. All of these things happen all of the time in actual matches. There is in fact hardly a unit type in SC2 which can be outplayed more easily than large melee units like the ultralisk, and this is ignoring the availability of snipe. I'm not saying another change to the ultra is needed right now (I have seen little impactful ultra play on the new patch), but this argument is just wrong.
Sure, that is if Zerg only use Ultra, thats why they have Banes to clean up the structure, Corruptor to chase the air units and Viper/Infestor to deal with seige units. And if you dont fight Zerg on open area, aka moving the units out, you end up having to go fully turtling against Zerg that taking 2 more bases at the very least. I would like to see a tournament where you take away Ghost from Terran and Lurker from Zerg and see who would win late game more consistently.
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Haven’t played for some time (one month).
The priority of Lurkers aren’t set up with the Ravengers.
Eg cant burrow lurkers with ravengers on hotkey.
When did that happend?
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On November 21 2024 00:24 Antithesis wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2024 18:19 Charoisaur wrote:On November 12 2024 05:51 Antithesis wrote:On November 12 2024 05:08 Charoisaur wrote:On November 12 2024 04:29 Antithesis wrote:On November 12 2024 03:31 Ciaus237 wrote:On November 12 2024 03:01 ejozl wrote:
Speed upg, frenzy, 25 mins cheaper, it became smaller as well, and they want it to push things away.
I guess it's not rly overtuned but it doesn't need these silly buffs, it's a perfectly fine unit.
Just make upgrades add +4 which it should've always had since lotv. It was not a perfectly fine unit lmao. It was clunky as hell, and the "ultras into lose" transition meme did not appear out of nowhere. Besides, it's not like Zerg is doing well anywhere below top 10 level anyway, so making the clunky stuff a bit nicer is hardly going to hurt. Exactly. Also, it must be remembered that ultras got a serious speed nerf in the present patch, so that, according to the council, they can more easily be dealt with by marines and marauders. As Artosis has rightly pointed out, this is a questionable approach, because melee units have to be faster than ranged units or else they will simply be kited to death. Besides, it is ridiculous that one of zerg's T3 units should officially be counterable by terran's T1-1.5 units. Imagine battlecruisers being countered by ling/roach. Well, apparently Zergs don't want their T3 units be countered by other tier 3 units either as they rallied for Ghost nerfs. 3 supply Ghosts that need 4 snipes per Ultralisk that are also able to cancel the snipe by running away are hardly adequate to counter Ultras. So if by counter you mean that the mere presence of ghosts should invalidate the utility of ultras altogether - besides, mind you, that of broodlords as well, while also being strong against nearly everything else - then no, ghosts should not simply "counter" ultras. Furthermore, there need not and should not be a simple outright counter to everything in the game. The ghost itself is a good example of this. It can be outplayed under the right circumstances, but it is not directly countered by anything in the zerg arsenal. A pure amove unit like the Ultra leaves little room to outplay it if no unit directly counters it This is very obviously false. A-move melee units and in particular large and clunky a-move melee units like the ultralisk can be outplayed in numerous ways, as you know very well. You can use terrain features, you can create chokes using sim city, planetaries, turrets, autoturrets, or any other sort of physical obstacles, you can use drop micro, you can use air units, you can kite, and so on. All of these things happen all of the time in actual matches. There is in fact hardly a unit type in SC2 which can be outplayed more easily than large melee units like the ultralisk, and this is ignoring the availability of snipe. I'm not saying another change to the ultra is needed right now (I have seen little impactful ultra play on the new patch), but this argument is just wrong.
This is in the current state of the game where there are clear direct counters to the Ultra.
If Ghosts and Marauders don't adquately fill that role anymore it will be hard to outplay Ultras.
Fighting in chokes is already factored in when saying Ghosts and Marauders counter Ultras as on open field with a surround they obliterate both. If Ghosts and Marauders can't be called a direct counter to Ultras anymore it means we're in a situation like when we had 8 armor Ultras vs split attack Marauders and fighting in chokes didn't make the Marauders kill the Ultras back then. Also because there's barely any micro involved from the Zerg side there can't be a 'dance' like with Ghosts where both sides try to outplay each other
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On November 21 2024 02:38 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2024 00:24 Antithesis wrote:On November 12 2024 18:19 Charoisaur wrote:On November 12 2024 05:51 Antithesis wrote:On November 12 2024 05:08 Charoisaur wrote:On November 12 2024 04:29 Antithesis wrote:On November 12 2024 03:31 Ciaus237 wrote:On November 12 2024 03:01 ejozl wrote:
Speed upg, frenzy, 25 mins cheaper, it became smaller as well, and they want it to push things away.
I guess it's not rly overtuned but it doesn't need these silly buffs, it's a perfectly fine unit.
Just make upgrades add +4 which it should've always had since lotv. It was not a perfectly fine unit lmao. It was clunky as hell, and the "ultras into lose" transition meme did not appear out of nowhere. Besides, it's not like Zerg is doing well anywhere below top 10 level anyway, so making the clunky stuff a bit nicer is hardly going to hurt. Exactly. Also, it must be remembered that ultras got a serious speed nerf in the present patch, so that, according to the council, they can more easily be dealt with by marines and marauders. As Artosis has rightly pointed out, this is a questionable approach, because melee units have to be faster than ranged units or else they will simply be kited to death. Besides, it is ridiculous that one of zerg's T3 units should officially be counterable by terran's T1-1.5 units. Imagine battlecruisers being countered by ling/roach. Well, apparently Zergs don't want their T3 units be countered by other tier 3 units either as they rallied for Ghost nerfs. 3 supply Ghosts that need 4 snipes per Ultralisk that are also able to cancel the snipe by running away are hardly adequate to counter Ultras. So if by counter you mean that the mere presence of ghosts should invalidate the utility of ultras altogether - besides, mind you, that of broodlords as well, while also being strong against nearly everything else - then no, ghosts should not simply "counter" ultras. Furthermore, there need not and should not be a simple outright counter to everything in the game. The ghost itself is a good example of this. It can be outplayed under the right circumstances, but it is not directly countered by anything in the zerg arsenal. A pure amove unit like the Ultra leaves little room to outplay it if no unit directly counters it This is very obviously false. A-move melee units and in particular large and clunky a-move melee units like the ultralisk can be outplayed in numerous ways, as you know very well. You can use terrain features, you can create chokes using sim city, planetaries, turrets, autoturrets, or any other sort of physical obstacles, you can use drop micro, you can use air units, you can kite, and so on. All of these things happen all of the time in actual matches. There is in fact hardly a unit type in SC2 which can be outplayed more easily than large melee units like the ultralisk, and this is ignoring the availability of snipe. I'm not saying another change to the ultra is needed right now (I have seen little impactful ultra play on the new patch), but this argument is just wrong. This is in the current state of the game where...
I reponded to your assertion that a "pure amove unit like the Ultra leaves little room to outplay it if no unit directly counters it", which is just false. Indeed, there is hardly a single type of unit that can be outplayed more easily and in more ways than a clunky a-move melee unit like the ultralisk (what type of unit would that be? Ranged? Air? Caster?). That's what I pointed out.
The question of whether or not the overall power level of the ultralisk is appropriate in the given meta is a different matter. Of course I agree that terrans need to have a response to ultras but from what I've seen on the new patch, there's no reason to think that ultras are now an extraordinary threat to terrans even with 3 supply ghosts. Actually most pros (at least the Koreas zergs) still seem to prefer lurkers over ultras. Ultras now being kiteable to death by bio, which was my original complaint cited from Artosis, may have its share in this.
That said, I do agree that making specific terran units (though in my view not T1-1.5 units) stronger against the ultralisk would be acceptable if it meant reducing the insane versatility of the ghost. Even on the new patch the ghost is still the counter to zerg's entire lategame arsenal, except that now terran has less other units because of the increased supply, which is not satisfactory either. As far as I see, the recent feedback by the pros has been along similar lines.
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On November 21 2024 15:23 Antithesis wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2024 02:38 Charoisaur wrote:On November 21 2024 00:24 Antithesis wrote:On November 12 2024 18:19 Charoisaur wrote:On November 12 2024 05:51 Antithesis wrote:On November 12 2024 05:08 Charoisaur wrote:On November 12 2024 04:29 Antithesis wrote:On November 12 2024 03:31 Ciaus237 wrote:On November 12 2024 03:01 ejozl wrote:
Speed upg, frenzy, 25 mins cheaper, it became smaller as well, and they want it to push things away.
I guess it's not rly overtuned but it doesn't need these silly buffs, it's a perfectly fine unit.
Just make upgrades add +4 which it should've always had since lotv. It was not a perfectly fine unit lmao. It was clunky as hell, and the "ultras into lose" transition meme did not appear out of nowhere. Besides, it's not like Zerg is doing well anywhere below top 10 level anyway, so making the clunky stuff a bit nicer is hardly going to hurt. Exactly. Also, it must be remembered that ultras got a serious speed nerf in the present patch, so that, according to the council, they can more easily be dealt with by marines and marauders. As Artosis has rightly pointed out, this is a questionable approach, because melee units have to be faster than ranged units or else they will simply be kited to death. Besides, it is ridiculous that one of zerg's T3 units should officially be counterable by terran's T1-1.5 units. Imagine battlecruisers being countered by ling/roach. Well, apparently Zergs don't want their T3 units be countered by other tier 3 units either as they rallied for Ghost nerfs. 3 supply Ghosts that need 4 snipes per Ultralisk that are also able to cancel the snipe by running away are hardly adequate to counter Ultras. So if by counter you mean that the mere presence of ghosts should invalidate the utility of ultras altogether - besides, mind you, that of broodlords as well, while also being strong against nearly everything else - then no, ghosts should not simply "counter" ultras. Furthermore, there need not and should not be a simple outright counter to everything in the game. The ghost itself is a good example of this. It can be outplayed under the right circumstances, but it is not directly countered by anything in the zerg arsenal. A pure amove unit like the Ultra leaves little room to outplay it if no unit directly counters it This is very obviously false. A-move melee units and in particular large and clunky a-move melee units like the ultralisk can be outplayed in numerous ways, as you know very well. You can use terrain features, you can create chokes using sim city, planetaries, turrets, autoturrets, or any other sort of physical obstacles, you can use drop micro, you can use air units, you can kite, and so on. All of these things happen all of the time in actual matches. There is in fact hardly a unit type in SC2 which can be outplayed more easily than large melee units like the ultralisk, and this is ignoring the availability of snipe. I'm not saying another change to the ultra is needed right now (I have seen little impactful ultra play on the new patch), but this argument is just wrong. This is in the current state of the game where... I reponded to your assertion that a "pure amove unit like the Ultra leaves little room to outplay it if no unit directly counters it", which is just false. Indeed, there is hardly a single type of unit that can be outplayed more easily and in more ways than a clunky a-move melee unit like the ultralisk (what type of unit would that be? Ranged? Air? Caster?). That's what I pointed out. The question of whether or not the overall power level of the ultralisk is appropriate in the given meta is a different matter. Of course I agree that terrans need to have a response to ultras but from what I've seen on the new patch, there's no reason to think that ultras are now an extraordinary threat to terrans even with 3 supply ghosts. Actually most pros (at least the Koreas zergs) still seem to prefer lurkers over ultras. Ultras now being kiteable to death by bio, which was my original complaint cited from Artosis, may have its share in this. That said, I do agree that making specific terran units (though in my view not T1-1.5 units) stronger against the ultralisk would be acceptable if it meant reducing the insane versatility of the ghost. Even on the new patch the ghost is still the counter to zerg's entire lategame arsenal, except that now terran has less other units because of the increased supply, which is not satisfactory either. As far as I see, the recent feedback by the pros has been along similar lines.
I think it s too soon to claim that ghost isn t impacting ultralisks strength even at pro level. Ultralisks have been buffed while casual players would have been thanksfull of not improving their strength. I love ultralisks function in the meta for the simple reason they need a ton of ressources but if protoss or terran aren t well prepared to the switch, it can be deadly. That s said, if you start to nerf ghost AND forteress then the balance could be impacted so wait and see.
Obviously there s only the addition of new ability that can help to make this unit more situational as they tried to add "a rush tunnel ability" which one seems really interessant in term of gameplay (some years ago). To me the game has really tight and extreme interaction, but lack of "progressive effect", for example :
Viper grab every units to the same distance independant from their weight
Ultralisks are immunized to marauders concussive (while it could be a percentage)
Disruptor, banelings AOE have flat damage without a reduction proportional of the distance
Etc
Etc
It s the charm of SC2 and it s also a part of his singularity, that s the main reason why the community need a "PTR LAB" because they would have a support for discussing of all those change during one year until the next patch. I m actually trying to make a first PTR LAB which concerns mainly the disruptor design, i have no real reason to do that except my hate for the disruptor design. Same for Infested terrans, they have been removed while they added fun gameplay !!! 12 workers is now part of the game and integrated to the meta but it also exist a way for replace it without impacting the game speed at start (in adding 9th minerals fields with very few amount, to compensate the reduction from 12 to 9 workers until the mid game. By speaking of those ideas, even if i think they are great, i can t be sure of the reaction of community and pros but i would really enjoy to look at reactions in suggesting variation of the actual sc2 (in the case of existing members which want to product content for this PTR LAB)
With time those PTR LAB number one, two, three .... could be grouped to one mod which allow you to select changes before playing. It asks professional support but it s a start
Concerning ultralisks, a simple answer is to add a 50% HP barrier, above that ultralisks become frenzy.
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On November 21 2024 15:23 Antithesis wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2024 02:38 Charoisaur wrote:On November 21 2024 00:24 Antithesis wrote:On November 12 2024 18:19 Charoisaur wrote:On November 12 2024 05:51 Antithesis wrote:On November 12 2024 05:08 Charoisaur wrote:On November 12 2024 04:29 Antithesis wrote:On November 12 2024 03:31 Ciaus237 wrote:On November 12 2024 03:01 ejozl wrote:
Speed upg, frenzy, 25 mins cheaper, it became smaller as well, and they want it to push things away.
I guess it's not rly overtuned but it doesn't need these silly buffs, it's a perfectly fine unit.
Just make upgrades add +4 which it should've always had since lotv. It was not a perfectly fine unit lmao. It was clunky as hell, and the "ultras into lose" transition meme did not appear out of nowhere. Besides, it's not like Zerg is doing well anywhere below top 10 level anyway, so making the clunky stuff a bit nicer is hardly going to hurt. Exactly. Also, it must be remembered that ultras got a serious speed nerf in the present patch, so that, according to the council, they can more easily be dealt with by marines and marauders. As Artosis has rightly pointed out, this is a questionable approach, because melee units have to be faster than ranged units or else they will simply be kited to death. Besides, it is ridiculous that one of zerg's T3 units should officially be counterable by terran's T1-1.5 units. Imagine battlecruisers being countered by ling/roach. Well, apparently Zergs don't want their T3 units be countered by other tier 3 units either as they rallied for Ghost nerfs. 3 supply Ghosts that need 4 snipes per Ultralisk that are also able to cancel the snipe by running away are hardly adequate to counter Ultras. So if by counter you mean that the mere presence of ghosts should invalidate the utility of ultras altogether - besides, mind you, that of broodlords as well, while also being strong against nearly everything else - then no, ghosts should not simply "counter" ultras. Furthermore, there need not and should not be a simple outright counter to everything in the game. The ghost itself is a good example of this. It can be outplayed under the right circumstances, but it is not directly countered by anything in the zerg arsenal. A pure amove unit like the Ultra leaves little room to outplay it if no unit directly counters it This is very obviously false. A-move melee units and in particular large and clunky a-move melee units like the ultralisk can be outplayed in numerous ways, as you know very well. You can use terrain features, you can create chokes using sim city, planetaries, turrets, autoturrets, or any other sort of physical obstacles, you can use drop micro, you can use air units, you can kite, and so on. All of these things happen all of the time in actual matches. There is in fact hardly a unit type in SC2 which can be outplayed more easily than large melee units like the ultralisk, and this is ignoring the availability of snipe. I'm not saying another change to the ultra is needed right now (I have seen little impactful ultra play on the new patch), but this argument is just wrong. This is in the current state of the game where... I reponded to your assertion that a "pure amove unit like the Ultra leaves little room to outplay it if no unit directly counters it", which is just false. Indeed, there is hardly a single type of unit that can be outplayed more easily and in more ways than a clunky a-move melee unit like the ultralisk (what type of unit would that be? Ranged? Air? Caster?). That's what I pointed out. The question of whether or not the overall power level of the ultralisk is appropriate in the given meta is a different matter. Of course I agree that terrans need to have a response to ultras but from what I've seen on the new patch, there's no reason to think that ultras are now an extraordinary threat to terrans even with 3 supply ghosts. Actually most pros (at least the Koreas zergs) still seem to prefer lurkers over ultras. Ultras now being kiteable to death by bio, which was my original complaint cited from Artosis, may have its share in this. That said, I do agree that making specific terran units (though in my view not T1-1.5 units) stronger against the ultralisk would be acceptable if it meant reducing the insane versatility of the ghost. Even on the new patch the ghost is still the counter to zerg's entire lategame arsenal, except that now terran has less other units because of the increased supply, which is not satisfactory either. As far as I see, the recent feedback by the pros has been along similar lines.
I think we're talking past each other.
My quote was "a pure amove unit like the Ultra leaves little room to outplay it if no unit directly counters it"
"If no unit directly counters it" means we're not talking about the current state of the game where Ultras has direct counters.
Imagine a world in which Ghosts and Marauders are nerfed far enough that they can't be considered an Ultra counter anymore and tell me how terran would counter Ultras in that scenario.
That is why terran needs direct counters to the Ultralisk
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PTR LAB
![[image loading]](https://i.ibb.co/4Tf7TvH/ghost-tweak.jpg)
New EMP radius :
Remove 100 shield points inside 0.75 radius
Remove 50 shield points in the upper radius (0.75 - 1.5)
The nerf of ghost in the PTR isn t efficient against protoss because you only need 4 or 5 ghosts to remove all shield army; so they should also directly tweak the EMP spell. But the supply cost change is good for TvZ
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We need to suggest modifications on the PTR. I haven t find the file yet in the editor but keep an eye close on it
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they need to just drop a patch. i was excited when they announced the PTR to play the game again and i've already lost interest. if they want people to play then just release a patch. doesn't matter if it's bad lol. vast majority of people just want the shit to be fresh, it's a small minority (including pros) who are fixated on this idea of "perfect top level balance." nobody cares about that when there's no major tournaments. just update the game
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On November 24 2024 00:39 shikadisoda wrote:
they need to just drop a patch. i was excited when they announced the PTR to play the game again and i've already lost interest. if they want people to play then just release a patch. doesn't matter if it's bad lol. vast majority of people just want the shit to be fresh, it's a small minority (including pros) who are fixated on this idea of "perfect top level balance." nobody cares about that when there's no major tournaments. just update the game
No SC2 isn t a piece of sh*t like MOBA
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Only because the balance is at its worst ever, is it a good time to do crazy changes, but ofc I i have little faith in the cabal, so I'd rather they just leave the game alone, I guess.
I don't like change for change's sake because it means that you would do a bad change just to light a spark. We should remember that this will be one of those evergreen games that we will return to in 20 years time, so no, I don't want to sacrifice the future for the now, it should be the other way round.
As for the EMP, I think it should just do flat 60 damage to shields, but it should also fully deplete a unit's energy, not just 100.
I don't even like the supply nerf on the Ghost.
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EPT
