|
On November 12 2024 04:29 Antithesis wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2024 03:31 Ciaus237 wrote:On November 12 2024 03:01 ejozl wrote:
Speed upg, frenzy, 25 mins cheaper, it became smaller as well, and they want it to push things away.
I guess it's not rly overtuned but it doesn't need these silly buffs, it's a perfectly fine unit.
Just make upgrades add +4 which it should've always had since lotv. It was not a perfectly fine unit lmao. It was clunky as hell, and the "ultras into lose" transition meme did not appear out of nowhere. Besides, it's not like Zerg is doing well anywhere below top 10 level anyway, so making the clunky stuff a bit nicer is hardly going to hurt. Exactly. Also, it must be remembered that ultras got a serious speed nerf in the present patch, so that, according to the council, they can more easily be dealt with by marines and marauders. As Artosis has rightly pointed out, this is a questionable approach, because melee units have to be faster than ranged units or else they will simply be kited to death. Besides, it is ridiculous that one of zerg's T3 units should officially be counterable by terran's T1-1.5 units. Imagine battlecruisers being countered by ling/roach.
Well, apparently Zergs don't want their T3 units be countered by other tier 3 units either as they rallied for Ghost nerfs. 3 supply Ghosts that need 4 snipes per Ultralisk that are also able to cancel the snipe by running away are hardly adequate to counter Ultras.
So Zergs don't want their ultras be countered by tier 1 units, by tier 2 units or by tier 3 units? One of them has to counter Ultras. If Zergs don't want Ghosts to counter Ultras, the ability needs to be transferred to other units
|
On November 12 2024 05:08 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2024 04:29 Antithesis wrote:On November 12 2024 03:31 Ciaus237 wrote:On November 12 2024 03:01 ejozl wrote:
Speed upg, frenzy, 25 mins cheaper, it became smaller as well, and they want it to push things away.
I guess it's not rly overtuned but it doesn't need these silly buffs, it's a perfectly fine unit.
Just make upgrades add +4 which it should've always had since lotv. It was not a perfectly fine unit lmao. It was clunky as hell, and the "ultras into lose" transition meme did not appear out of nowhere. Besides, it's not like Zerg is doing well anywhere below top 10 level anyway, so making the clunky stuff a bit nicer is hardly going to hurt. Exactly. Also, it must be remembered that ultras got a serious speed nerf in the present patch, so that, according to the council, they can more easily be dealt with by marines and marauders. As Artosis has rightly pointed out, this is a questionable approach, because melee units have to be faster than ranged units or else they will simply be kited to death. Besides, it is ridiculous that one of zerg's T3 units should officially be counterable by terran's T1-1.5 units. Imagine battlecruisers being countered by ling/roach. Well, apparently Zergs don't want their T3 units be countered by other tier 3 units either as they rallied for Ghost nerfs. 3 supply Ghosts that need 4 snipes per Ultralisk that are also able to cancel the snipe by running away are hardly adequate to counter Ultras.
Ghosts are still an incredibly powerful unit against almost every part of zerg's lategame army compositions, including ultras. It is just that ghosts are now less massable as a catch-all fulfilling a host of roles (combat, snipe, tactical maneuvering, being tanky, forcing detection, EMP) under virtually all circumstances. The ghost nerf is a correction of a blatant imbalance acknowledged by practically every pro who has commented upon it, including the literal world champion who is a terran himself.
So if by counter you mean that the mere presence of ghosts should invalidate the utility of ultras altogether - besides, mind you, that of broodlords as well, while also being strong against nearly everything else - then no, ghosts should not simply "counter" ultras.
Furthermore, there need not and should not be a simple outright counter to everything in the game. The ghost itself is a good example of this. It can be outplayed under the right circumstances, but it is not directly countered by anything in the zerg arsenal.
|
Ultralisks are used all the time today. But pretending that already viable units are useless is par for the course for Zergs, which is why hydras have been buffed twice since the balance council took over.
|
The power of the ultra is rly that it's only 1 larvae, hence why it was still used in wings and hots despite the terrible stats.
If there is a problem with the ultra it's only because zerg units have gotten so efficient that they are not starved for larvae. It doesn't help with how easy it is to reach max and split the map. This is also why ghosts are "imba", solely due to the fact that you reach maxed scenario all of the time in tvz, which was never the intention of the original sc1. Then we have all the supply increases simply making it easier to reach. The game becomes so boring like this, who here remembers wol and hots late game army sizes? It actually felt epic, whereas now half of your supply is bound up in workers, and the other in units to do a little dance of eeking out efficiency.
|
I would have really liked to see SC2 increase its supply cap from 200 to ~225. (Not 250, that's too much.)
Just seems logical because high worker counts is more standard in LotV after the economy changes. Also, because supply costs are slightly higher in SC2 than SC1.
I think it could help improve gameplay for SC2.
Many units or comps may lose efficiency if the deathball gets too big. It gets hard to have all your units shoot and jamming them through chokes becomes more difficult.
So I think that in most cases, the extra 25 supply would lead to a 2ndary army becoming more common (we see this sometimes still), and more small skirmishes around the map.
It might feel like SC2 "deathball" problem is still too prevalent. But everything is relative. Perhaps if we allowed for a little more supply, we'd have more army supply doing things elsewhere. And the "big deathball" we saw ends up feeling less deathball-y relatively.
I also think that positional styles and fortified positions, like Mech, could become more viable. They would still be weaker in the early game as they are now, but they might have a point in the lategame where it becomes significantly more powerful than a non-mech comp. It becomes harder to jam 1 big deathball into a deeply entrenched tankline with turrets and AA. And if you separate your army in 2 to try to split the mech army up, there's enough supply in the mech army for you to split your tanks up while still having dense enough dps to be efficient.
Also, it would allow for even more variety and individuality when it comes to how much you invest into econ vs tech vs army. Maybe seeing 100 worker styles will be slightly more common/viable, and there'd be a bigger contrast to for example Terran on 40 workers with MULEs and a huge army.
25 more max supply isn't a huge enough difference to break things, but those ~10 extra units would still have a noticeable impact on gameplay.
|
On November 12 2024 05:51 Antithesis wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2024 05:08 Charoisaur wrote:On November 12 2024 04:29 Antithesis wrote:On November 12 2024 03:31 Ciaus237 wrote:On November 12 2024 03:01 ejozl wrote:
Speed upg, frenzy, 25 mins cheaper, it became smaller as well, and they want it to push things away.
I guess it's not rly overtuned but it doesn't need these silly buffs, it's a perfectly fine unit.
Just make upgrades add +4 which it should've always had since lotv. It was not a perfectly fine unit lmao. It was clunky as hell, and the "ultras into lose" transition meme did not appear out of nowhere. Besides, it's not like Zerg is doing well anywhere below top 10 level anyway, so making the clunky stuff a bit nicer is hardly going to hurt. Exactly. Also, it must be remembered that ultras got a serious speed nerf in the present patch, so that, according to the council, they can more easily be dealt with by marines and marauders. As Artosis has rightly pointed out, this is a questionable approach, because melee units have to be faster than ranged units or else they will simply be kited to death. Besides, it is ridiculous that one of zerg's T3 units should officially be counterable by terran's T1-1.5 units. Imagine battlecruisers being countered by ling/roach. Well, apparently Zergs don't want their T3 units be countered by other tier 3 units either as they rallied for Ghost nerfs. 3 supply Ghosts that need 4 snipes per Ultralisk that are also able to cancel the snipe by running away are hardly adequate to counter Ultras. So if by counter you mean that the mere presence of ghosts should invalidate the utility of ultras altogether - besides, mind you, that of broodlords as well, while also being strong against nearly everything else - then no, ghosts should not simply "counter" ultras. .
Stop with the hyperbole, we both know that this was never the case. Ultras were still continously built in ZvT lategame, even against a terran massing Ghost. If Ghosts do the job of countering Ultras worse, this ability needs to be transferred over to other units.
I get your point that it's bad design when Ghosts also counter every other Zerg unit, but nerfing them means they are worse against Ultras which means other terran units need to do their job as Ultra counters better
Furthermore, there need not and should not be a simple outright counter to everything in the game. The ghost itself is a good example of this. It can be outplayed under the right circumstances, but it is not directly countered by anything in the zerg arsenal.
This is a good point but it only really works for micro units like spellcasters. A pure amove unit like the Ultra leaves little room to outplay it if no unit directly counters it
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
