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On October 26 2024 09:42 Vindicare605 wrote:
Nebuchad at this point, you're the guy saying Climate Change isn't real while the rest of us are debating the hard decisions that need to be made about what to do about it.
Even PiG in his rant mentions over and over again that Protoss has underlying design problems. It is a fact of life in SC2.
We can either choose to ignore them and engage in this cyclical balancing that we've been doing for the last 14 years or we can talk about them and try and do something about them. It's really that simple.
Trying to pretend like Protoss design isn't problematic doesn't do anyone any favors.
Nebuchad specifically pointed out a point in time where players like herO and Maxpax were able to win, enough for spectators to be satisfied, and without protoss winning every non-top level tournament.
And here you are accusing him of denying climate change? What? Sorry but i have to really just call that out for being so stupid.
Vindicare you bring some good points but you are painting an all-or-nothing picture when they can easily find a middleground. Top level protoss should have more of a chance than currently - back in the days when Trap would make finals for example, those were fine. When they buffed voids then reverted it partially, things were fine.
Btw regarding Protoss having cascading effects in ladder - you forget that ladder already adjusts for racial imbalances, and finds suitable opponents for you. The only part of ladder that might suffer would be GM because there's few players there and you can't adjust for racial imbalance without running out of players to match with.
I think the majority of the scene would prefer GM be protoss heavy and allow top protosses to reach finals more often and win a little more than they currently do. Winning a premier tournament 1 in 10 times would be nice. Not 1 in 20 times.
PvT has suffered too much ever since the stupid Battery Overcharge 100->50% patch + Ravens being cheaper and quicker to make while keeping 11 sec Matrix. And they're going to continue to suffer now. I just feel really sad as a spectator but also for pro Protoss players.
Stop worrying about lower level ladder that already accounts for racial balance. Fix the MU so that pro level is back within 48:52, not 45:55 or 40:60. It's what Blizzard would do.
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Look I'm not saying you CAN'T buff Protoss so that they win again. Go ahead and do it. I'm personally more than fine seeing Protoss win for a bit if it means I stop seeing ZvZ mirrors in the final rounds of tournaments.
The reason I am "All or Nothing" on this issue as you put it is because I know what the cycle is and I know how this plays out long term.
Protoss starts winning, Protoss will get nerfed. The cascading effect on ladder that you want to pretend won't happen and doesn't matter WILL happen and WILL matter because to the people that actually play this game it doesn't feel good to lose to the kind of bullshit that allow Protoss to flip a match with a 1k mmr difference to paraphrase PiG.
It's an excercise in futility to keep balancing this way.
We can keep doing it sure, and like I said before, walking back the previous balance council nerfs is something I am very supportive of (which you'd know if you read my posts) i'm just not enthusiastic about it because again I know where it leads.
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Can someone dig up the patch notes from 2010 when zealots lost 10 shields because and I quote: "we found 2 gate zealot rushes to be too strong at low levels of play"
Would give me quite the chuckle.
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On October 30 2024 17:58 Agh wrote:
Can someone dig up the patch notes from 2010 when zealots lost 10 shields because and I quote: "we found 2 gate zealot rushes to be too strong at low levels of play"
Would give me quite the chuckle.
lmao. To be fair on Steppes of War and Delta Quadrant I think 2 gate zealot WAS too strong.
God how many stupid balance changes we had to suffer through because of that atrocious early map pool.
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On October 30 2024 17:12 Vindicare605 wrote:
Look I'm not saying you CAN'T buff Protoss so that they win again. Go ahead and do it. I'm personally more than fine seeing Protoss win for a bit if it means I stop seeing ZvZ mirrors in the final rounds of tournaments.
The reason I am "All or Nothing" on this issue as you put it is because I know what the cycle is and I know how this plays out long term.
Protoss starts winning, Protoss will get nerfed. The cascading effect on ladder that you want to pretend won't happen and doesn't matter WILL happen and WILL matter because to the people that actually play this game it doesn't feel good to lose to the kind of bullshit that allow Protoss to flip a match with a 1k mmr difference to paraphrase PiG.
It's an excercise in futility to keep balancing this way.
We can keep doing it sure, and like I said before, walking back the previous balance council nerfs is something I am very supportive of (which you'd know if you read my posts) i'm just not enthusiastic about it because again I know where it leads.
If you listened to PiG you should also be aware that the finetune changes designed to balance the 0.1% players at the top likely won't have any effect on the majority of playerbase because they aren't good enough to leverage them (25 mineral cost decrease doesn't matter if you float 700 minerals anyway)
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Yeah stop worrying about Protoss players Masters and below and fix Protoss for the top 100. You can't have it both.
I mean the overcharge change for example. The old overcharge was click and be done and time to micro your army/ defense. This new overcharge is like warp in HT/ Sentry, load up on energy, get of nice storm/ FF. Until I and probably 90% of Toss players are done with that, the game is probably lost. So even if this change might be considered useful for pro play, it's not for everyone under GM.
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On October 30 2024 17:12 Vindicare605 wrote:
Look I'm not saying you CAN'T buff Protoss so that they win again. Go ahead and do it. I'm personally more than fine seeing Protoss win for a bit if it means I stop seeing ZvZ mirrors in the final rounds of tournaments.
The reason I am "All or Nothing" on this issue as you put it is because I know what the cycle is and I know how this plays out long term.
Protoss starts winning, Protoss will get nerfed. The cascading effect on ladder that you want to pretend won't happen and doesn't matter WILL happen and WILL matter because to the people that actually play this game it doesn't feel good to lose to the kind of bullshit that allow Protoss to flip a match with a 1k mmr difference to paraphrase PiG.
It's an excercise in futility to keep balancing this way.
We can keep doing it sure, and like I said before, walking back the previous balance council nerfs is something I am very supportive of (which you'd know if you read my posts) i'm just not enthusiastic about it because again I know where it leads.
You don't need to write more posts about it we understood your position. You think it's impossible for the best protoss players to win things unless any average good protoss player also wins things. This is not true, as we can clearly point to periods of the game where herO or Maxpax could win but other protosses couldn't, but you refuse to entertain this. So there's not much more to say.
Of course if your assumption was right then you would be correct. But reality demonstrates that it isn't, and therefore, you're not.
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Northern Ireland27464 Posts
On October 30 2024 22:54 Harris1st wrote:
Yeah stop worrying about Protoss players Masters and below and fix Protoss for the top 100. You can't have it both.
I mean the overcharge change for example. The old overcharge was click and be done and time to micro your army/ defense. This new overcharge is like warp in HT/ Sentry, load up on energy, get of nice storm/ FF. Until I and probably 90% of Toss players are done with that, the game is probably lost. So even if this change might be considered useful for pro play, it's not for everyone under GM.
I still think it just doesn’t work, full stop. That’s the problem with this change for me, regardless of level of player. Or should I say changes, I like this idea, but it’s not strong enough to compensate for overcharge being removed.
Templars just aren’t good against dedicated tank pushes/contains that hit when your third is not long being up and running, which is a very common timing in this meta
Templars get zoned, Templars have only a few shots at doing potentially big damage, or they’re a paperweight. Templars can’t damage bunkers.
What we usually see is Protoss attempt to chip away with Collosus, or Disruptors, retreat to batteries, activate overcharge if Terran try to jump on them rather than gradually chipping away at range. And even then, it still breaks Protoss pretty frequently.
There’s synergy and flow issues as well. Robo synergises well with blink stalkers, so opening stalkers you get both the benefits of map control and your next tech stage kind of suits that opener too. You generally want Robo at some stage anyway, even if it’s just for Immortals or observers.
Overcharge in general is more critical in PvT than PvZ, and at the highest level it’s already the former matchup that is the problem. You need the burst shield regeneration to compensate for Terran’s higher DPS
IDK, my intuition is you open up options that don’t really help versus what Toss is already struggling with, and the commensurate removals make it even harder to deal with what Toss is already struggling with
We’ll see how things go in some of these upcoming PTR tournaments, but that would be my vague prediction.
I like energy overcharge, I think it’s an interesting ability but for me it should have just added to Toss’ toolkit, or alternatively in conjunction with a slightly nerfed overcharge.
I worry we’ll see Toss get butchered and we’ll just see a reversal, which I think would be a pity as I’d like to see this energy recharge idea experimented with
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On October 30 2024 23:49 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2024 22:54 Harris1st wrote:
Yeah stop worrying about Protoss players Masters and below and fix Protoss for the top 100. You can't have it both.
I mean the overcharge change for example. The old overcharge was click and be done and time to micro your army/ defense. This new overcharge is like warp in HT/ Sentry, load up on energy, get of nice storm/ FF. Until I and probably 90% of Toss players are done with that, the game is probably lost. So even if this change might be considered useful for pro play, it's not for everyone under GM. I still think it just doesn’t work, full stop. That’s the problem with this change for me, regardless of level of player. Or should I say changes, I like this idea, but it’s not strong enough to compensate for overcharge being removed. Templars just aren’t good against dedicated tank pushes/contains that hit when your third is not long being up and running, which is a very common timing in this meta Templars get zoned, Templars have only a few shots at doing potentially big damage, or they’re a paperweight. Templars can’t damage bunkers. What we usually see is Protoss attempt to chip away with Collosus, or Disruptors, retreat to batteries, activate overcharge if Terran try to jump on them rather than gradually chipping away at range. And even then, it still breaks Protoss pretty frequently. There’s synergy and flow issues as well. Robo synergises well with blink stalkers, so opening stalkers you get both the benefits of map control and your next tech stage kind of suits that opener too. You generally want Robo at some stage anyway, even if it’s just for Immortals or observers. Overcharge in general is more critical in PvT than PvZ, and at the highest level it’s already the former matchup that is the problem. You need the burst shield regeneration to compensate for Terran’s higher DPS IDK, my intuition is you open up options that don’t really help versus what Toss is already struggling with, and the commensurate removals make it even harder to deal with what Toss is already struggling with We’ll see how things go in some of these upcoming PTR tournaments, but that would be my vague prediction. I like energy overcharge, I think it’s an interesting ability but for me it should have just added to Toss’ toolkit, or alternatively in conjunction with a slightly nerfed overcharge. I worry we’ll see Toss get butchered and we’ll just see a reversal, which I think would be a pity as I’d like to see this energy recharge idea experimented with
Or just give Protoss both types of overcharge but share the same cooldown. At least this give them an option to decide what to use
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Northern Ireland27464 Posts
On October 31 2024 03:06 Blitzball04 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2024 23:49 WombaT wrote:On October 30 2024 22:54 Harris1st wrote:
Yeah stop worrying about Protoss players Masters and below and fix Protoss for the top 100. You can't have it both.
I mean the overcharge change for example. The old overcharge was click and be done and time to micro your army/ defense. This new overcharge is like warp in HT/ Sentry, load up on energy, get of nice storm/ FF. Until I and probably 90% of Toss players are done with that, the game is probably lost. So even if this change might be considered useful for pro play, it's not for everyone under GM. I still think it just doesn’t work, full stop. That’s the problem with this change for me, regardless of level of player. Or should I say changes, I like this idea, but it’s not strong enough to compensate for overcharge being removed. Templars just aren’t good against dedicated tank pushes/contains that hit when your third is not long being up and running, which is a very common timing in this meta Templars get zoned, Templars have only a few shots at doing potentially big damage, or they’re a paperweight. Templars can’t damage bunkers. What we usually see is Protoss attempt to chip away with Collosus, or Disruptors, retreat to batteries, activate overcharge if Terran try to jump on them rather than gradually chipping away at range. And even then, it still breaks Protoss pretty frequently. There’s synergy and flow issues as well. Robo synergises well with blink stalkers, so opening stalkers you get both the benefits of map control and your next tech stage kind of suits that opener too. You generally want Robo at some stage anyway, even if it’s just for Immortals or observers. Overcharge in general is more critical in PvT than PvZ, and at the highest level it’s already the former matchup that is the problem. You need the burst shield regeneration to compensate for Terran’s higher DPS IDK, my intuition is you open up options that don’t really help versus what Toss is already struggling with, and the commensurate removals make it even harder to deal with what Toss is already struggling with We’ll see how things go in some of these upcoming PTR tournaments, but that would be my vague prediction. I like energy overcharge, I think it’s an interesting ability but for me it should have just added to Toss’ toolkit, or alternatively in conjunction with a slightly nerfed overcharge. I worry we’ll see Toss get butchered and we’ll just see a reversal, which I think would be a pity as I’d like to see this energy recharge idea experimented with Or just give Protoss both types of overcharge but share the same cooldown. At least this give them an option to decide what to use
Well yeah I’ve suggested they do that
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this "balance" patch is a **** joke, isn't it?
I'm usually not ranting publicly, but this?
Honestly. What the actual fuck? Reading the toss part I already was scratching my head...
Had to stop reading the terran part at the helion change because i couldn't believe it. <Not the helion change itself but the accumulation of all of it so far>
Salvagable turrets? Healing your supply depot? A terran's wet dreams I guess. And don't get me started with the liberator. Let's get rid of 0.75 range and give it more than double the area it's covering, shall we? And while we're at it don't forget those servos.
I'm pretty much speechless. So I'll let #1 talk for me
"Honestly, these changes are terrible and scatter-brained, but they also don't affect me so... meh?"
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Wish we could get an update from the balance council. Their thoughts on the patches feedback and plan going forward. Or ESL.
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On October 31 2024 08:15 CicadaSC wrote:
Wish we could get an update from the balance council. Their thoughts on the patches feedback and plan going forward. Or ESL.
We have now reached the point where not only virtually the whole community, nearly every professional caster, and all professional players who have expressly commented upon the patch (so far as I am aware), but also the reigning world champion who himself is a terran are united in their recognition of the necessity to nerf the ghost.
I cannot imagine any excuse on the part of the balance council to fail to acknowledge this any longer.
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It's very stupid when the balancing of the game is trusted to those WHO PLAY IT. This changelog makes it obvious. I hope this Balance Council doesn't become a nail in the coffin of our beloved game...
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On October 31 2024 10:59 Antithesis wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2024 08:15 CicadaSC wrote:
Wish we could get an update from the balance council. Their thoughts on the patches feedback and plan going forward. Or ESL. We have now reached the point where not only virtually the whole community, nearly every professional caster, and all professional players who have expressly commented upon the patch (so far as I am aware), but also the reigning world champion who himself is a terran are united in their recognition of the necessity to nerf the ghost. I cannot imagine any excuse on the part of the balance council to fail to acknowledge this any longer.
we definitely need an update. Just waiting around until a patch happens and see what made it through and what got rolled-back is so not the way. being left in limbo just sucks.
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Having played around with the PTR a little, this patch seems like a buff for Cannon rushers. The candidate maps are also better for Cannon rushing than the current maps are. I'm sure printf will be happy.
I realise most people don't care.
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It seems to be the best patch since a long while.
I will really enjoy to look again stream with these good ideas especially i can t wait to see ultra pushing units.
Hope you will enjoy playing this new patch as i can t definetly return back to SC2 due to fingers problem (but i will continue to look SC2 hoping to see new pro players)
As usually, not so many of you are enought patient, judging negatively before even take a look to games, it seems to be symptomatic in this forum
It s a really protoss oriented patch,i would consider a new nexus spell for early-mid game aiming to teleport small group of units between the range of protoss pylons. i m thinking a developpement team is possibly working to maintain hype for the best rts ever.
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On October 31 2024 18:11 Vision_ wrote:
It s a really protoss oriented patch, i would consider a new nexus spell for early-mid game aiming to teleport small group of units between the range of protoss pylons.
HUH?!
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On October 31 2024 18:31 CicadaSC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2024 18:11 Vision_ wrote:
It s a really protoss oriented patch, i would consider a new nexus spell for early-mid game aiming to teleport small group of units between the range of protoss pylons.
HUH?!
Forget this dumb idea please 
The thing protoss are so static and have a "time-space" philosophy is like a study case school.
Maybe there s still work to do with the warp gate as it s protoss mecanics this spell could be done with advantages AND counterparts.
Simple ideas are always the best, i would revert the warpgate idea, i.e more cooldown if you teleport units. I m not especially waiting for this change since it should have been done at the release of the game 12 years ago....
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On October 31 2024 16:31 CicadaSC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2024 10:59 Antithesis wrote:On October 31 2024 08:15 CicadaSC wrote:
Wish we could get an update from the balance council. Their thoughts on the patches feedback and plan going forward. Or ESL. We have now reached the point where not only virtually the whole community, nearly every professional caster, and all professional players who have expressly commented upon the patch (so far as I am aware), but also the reigning world champion who himself is a terran are united in their recognition of the necessity to nerf the ghost. I cannot imagine any excuse on the part of the balance council to fail to acknowledge this any longer. we definitely need an update. Just waiting around until a patch happens and see what made it through and what got rolled-back is so not the way. being left in limbo just sucks.
This is because of all this NDA bullshit.
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EPT
