Greetings from the StarCraft II Community Balance Council! After around 7 months since the last patch, we are happy to present the next major multiplayer balance update, featuring changes for 14 units and 10 buildings, as well as two new abilities.
We feel that the previous 5.0.13 patch has mostly achieved its goals, fixing community pain points around Widow Mines and Cyclone, and slightly helping Protoss players in early and midgame against Terrans. However, the current patch has a couple of more ambitious goals outlined below:
The first goal is to nerf defensive and camping playstyles for all races, both related to early and late game on the higher levels of play. We will target specific units, buildings and abilities suited for camping, to promote more active gameplay across all stages of the game.
The second goal is to continue reshaping Protoss tools for high-level gameplay. We believe there is still a major gap between how Protoss race plays and feels on the highest level of play and the levels below - current set of changes aims to make Protoss race slightly more efficient with the strongest and smartest execution while helping Terran and Zerg players against Protoss on the lower levels.
The third goal would be to provide strong playstyle alternatives for various matchups - Zergs might be now better equipped to use ground-based armies against mass air strategies, and some of the Terran mech units are now more efficient in harassment or certain straight-up fights scenarios.
Lastly, we would like to continue adding overall gameplay and quality of life improvements viable across all levels of play.
We would like to thank everyone for providing your feedback for all previous community patches and we hope that the set of changes below will also be actively discussed and tested on the PTR server to help us evaluate their influence.
Protoss Changes
Nexus
Shield Battery Overcharge ability removed.
New ability added: Energy Overcharge. Energy Overcharge costs 50 Energy and recharges 100 Energy of the targeted allied unit or structure with a maximum range of 8.
Developer Comment: While being one of the most important tools in Protoss defenses, Shield Battery Overcharge is also one of the most frustrating abilities to play against - and it’s overall more efficient at the lower level of play, unlike other defensive techniques like Transfuse or Mass Repair. Instead of this ability, there is a new tool which can help empower Protoss support units like Sentry, Oracle or High Templar during defense. The ability can still be used to restore Shield Battery energy, but it is expected to perform much weaker in this scenario than Shield Battery Overcharge.
Shield Battery
Shield and HP increased from 150/150 to 200/200.
Developer Comment: Considering this ability swap might be a direct Protoss nerf in a lot of early- and mid-game scenarios, Shield Batteries will now have increased survivability to slightly compensate for that, and the PTR games will be closely monitored to see if any additional buffs are required in this area.
Colossus
Shield and HP changed from 150/200 to 100/250.
Developer Comment: With no Battery Overcharge, having more Shields is no longer crucial for key Protoss units like Colossus. Instead, having more HP will be helpful against EMP in Protoss versus Terran matchup and will also be more rewarding for Armor upgrade investments.
Tempest
Supply Cost decreased from 5 to 4.
Damage Point decreased from 0.119 to 0.0857 (28% reduction).
Attack Range vs Air decreased from 14 to 13.
Developer Comment: Tempests are a very important lategame tool for Protoss players, but their high supply cost combined with an average damage output makes the ultimate Protoss army weaker in the head to head fight. This set of changes will help high-level Protoss players to fit a bit more power in their maxed armies and have more opportunities for micro while slightly decreasing unit's maximum attack range to not strengthen mass-tempest armies.
Immortal
Mineral Cost decreased from 275 to 250.
Weapon Cooldown increased from 1.04 to 1.14 (9.6% increase).
Developer Comment: The damage output from Immortals seemed to be too high in the Protoss versus Zerg matchup across all levels of play. While Immortal’s Mineral Cost is slightly decreased to compensate for the DPS nerf, this set of changes should help Zerg survive against various Protoss midgame and lategame attacks.
Disruptor
Purification Nova Radius increased from 1.375 to 1.5.
Purification Nova Damage decreased from 145 (+55 vs Shields) to 100 (+100 vs Shields).
Developer Comment: Disruptors might be very difficult to play against on the lower levels, but on the highest level their efficiency dropped down significantly after the previous changes. This set of changes is aimed to bring back some of Disruptor’s old power, making avoiding any damage more challenging for the professional players, while at the same time making single Disruptor hits less punishing in the worst case scenario. With the new damage output, Disruptors will no longer one-shot units like Marauders, Roaches and Ravagers, while being more efficient against units like Marines, Ghosts, Banelings and Hydras, as well as having more potential in certain PvP scenarios.
Mothership
Mineral, Gas and Supply cost increased from 300/300/6 to 400/400/8.
Shield and HP increased from 250/250 to 350/350.
Maximum damage increased from 6 (damage) x 6 (beams) to 6 (damage) x 4 (beams) x 4 (maximum number of targets), i.e. Mothership now targets up to 4 units at the same time.
Developer Comment: While we are happy with the previous set of changes which brought mothership back to Protoss versus Terran lategame and improved its efficiency in other matchups, we also appreciate the community feedback about this unit losing an important part of its identity. This set of changes brings back full mothership power with its widely known 400/400 cost, while also adding a unique ability to target up to 4 units at the same time: the single target DPS of the mothership is now reduced, but the overall damage output will be much higher.
Terran Changes
Bunker, Missile Turret, Sensor Tower
Salvage ability added for Missile Turret and Sensor Tower (also returning 75% of their cost).
Salvage process is now being canceled upon taking damage.
Developer Comment: This change will allow Terrans to be more efficient while moving from one defensive point to another, while at the same time increasing their overall investment in early-game attacks featuring Bunkers, as the Salvage is now much easier to counter.
Planetary Fortress
Armor decreased from 3 to 2.
Sensor Tower
Mineral & Gas Cost decreased from 125/100 to 100/50.
Radar Range decreased from 27 to 22 (34% area size reduction).
Developer Comment: The combination of Planetary Fortresses and Sensor Towers is a very powerful camping tool in various lategame scenarios. This set of changes makes Planetary Fortresses slightly weaker against basic army units like Zerglings, Marines and Zealots, and making Sensor Towers much less efficient in covering the whole map. However, Sensor Towers might now be useful in earlier stages of the game, considering their majorly reduced cost and added salvage ability.
Orbital Command
Extra Supplies Calldown now also increases the HP of Supply Depot to 500, immediately repairing it.
Developer Comment: Extra Supplies are rarely utilized in the higher level of play and are mostly considered to be an emergency tool in case of Supply Blocks. This change brings additional value to this ability, allowing it to become a niche defensive tool against various offenses and counter-attacks.
Hellion
Blue Flame upgrade bonus damage versus Light increased from +5 to +9.
Developer Comment: As the Blue Flame upgrade is rarely utilized as a harassment tool, this change is added to allow Hellions with Blue Flame to 2-shot workers of all races. This might also help underused mech playstyles in all matchups and promote generally more active early and midgame from the Terran players.
Liberator
Advanced Ballistics effect changed from providing +2 range in Defender mode to increasing the radius in Defender mode from 5 to 6.25 (56% area increase).
Smart Servos upgrade is now also affecting Liberators. With Smart Servos, Liberator siege time is decreased from 2.89 to 2.12 (26.6% reduction) and unsiege time is decreased from 1.46 to 1.13 (23% reduction).
Developer Comment: Despite the previous Advanced Ballistics nerf, Liberator’s maximum attack range is still an important limitation for the mapmaking process, as well as a frustrating mechanic to play against. This set of changes is aimed to test a different approach for the unit, which further decreases its maximum range in line with the Tempest changes, but allows it to cover more area on the sides and underneath the Liberator in Defender mode.
Thor
Explosive Payload (“splash mode”) Damage is increased from 6 (+6 vs light) to 8 (+4 vs light).
Explosive Payload Splash Radius is increased from 0.5 with 100% splash damage to 0.5 with 100% damage, 0.75 with 75% damage and 1.25 with 50% damage.
Explosive Payload Attack Range is decreased from 10 to 7.
Developer Comment: Thor’s Explosive Payload mode, while being default for the unit, is rarely utilized outside of TvZ against Mutalisk, and is overall much weaker than its High Impact counterpart. This experimental set of changes is aimed to test a very different approach for the Explosive Payload, allowing Thor to deal much more damage to all types of units in a cost of major attack range reduction.
Zerg Changes
Queen
Mineral Cost increased from 150 to 175.
Hatchery
Mineral Cost decreased from 300 to 275.
Spine Crawler
Build Time decreased from 36 to 32.
Damage increased from 25 (+5 vs Armored) to 30.
Spore Crawler
Damage increased from 15 to 20.
HP decreased from 400 to 300.
Developer Comment: Zerg playstyles against Terran and Protoss players on higher levels are mainly focused on defensive gameplay featuring mass Queens. The efficiency of such defensive styles with strong execution means that Terran and Protoss players might also prefer to stay passive, which doesn’t lead to active early game. This set of changes, while not majorly influencing Zerg openings with a limited number of Queens, is aimed to make mass Queens playstyles less affordable. Spine Crawler and Spore Crawler changes will help compensate for potentially smaller defensive impact from Queens - at the same time, Spore Crawler HP was still decreased to make sure Spore Crawler damage increase is not utilized for more efficient lategame camping.
Hydralisk
Move Speed on Creep with Muscular Augments upgrade decreased from 5.11 to 4.83 (5.5% reduction).
New ability added: Dash. Dash is researched in Hydralisk Den, requires Hive; the upgrade costs 100 minerals and 100 gas, takes 64 seconds.
Dash is an active non targeted ability with 10 seconds cooldown. Upon its use, Hydralisk receives 60% move speed bonus for 0.71 seconds.
Developer Comment: The idea of this ability is to add more micromanagement potential for the key Zerg unit against mass area of effect damage spells like Psionic Storms and Purification Novas. Combined with other changes like Microbial Shroud, this ability might unlock alternative, ground-based Zerg playstyles against Protoss lategame army compositions without giving too much base power to the unit. Move Speed on Creep with Muscular Augments upgrade is slightly reduced to make sure Terran and Protoss harassment tools are not nerfed with this ability being added.
Infestor
Microbial Shroud is now sticking to units, providing them with its effect for 3.6 seconds while off the Shroud.
Developer Comment: Despite being very strong on paper, Microbial Shroud is not widely used in Zerg versus Protoss lategame, mostly due to units under Shroud being vulnerable to area of effect damage spells. With Shroud sticking to units for 3.6 seconds outside of the actual Shroud area, Zerg players are now able to micro more freely while still enjoying the benefits of this Infestor ability.
Ultralisk
While moving, Ultralisk is now able to push allied units.
Developer Comment: We feel that the previous Ultralisk size, attack and cost changes were all helpful to improve the state of the unit, but this additional change should help Zerg players across all levels to better utilize Ultralisk strengths, avoiding cases where Ultralisks were stuck behind other allied units.
Brood Lord
Broodling HP is increased from 20 to 30.
Broodling Weapon Cooldown decreased from 0.57 to 0.46.
Fixed the bug which prevented Brood Lord from dealing full damage while shooting from the maximum distance.
Developer Comment: Brood Lord seemed to lose too much power in head to head fights after the previous set of changes - the broodling changes are now reverted which, combined with the bug fix, should help the unit to perform better in various lategame scenarios.
General
Orbital Command Scanner Sweep visual now uses team color.
Sensor Tower Radar minimap visual now uses team color.
Command Center, Nexus and Hatchery now auto rally to mineral fields.
Workers waiting for Refinery, Extractor or Assimilator to finish do not count as idle.
SCV random delay between moving while building adjusted from 3.57- 7.14 to 4.64-6.07 (same average).
Added icon to command card for Infestor, Hellion, Hellbat, Liberator showing unupgraded passive upgrades.
Siege Tank and Immortal tracking change from previous patch reverted due to causing unintentional retargeting.
Fixed an issue where blinding cloud caused certain melee units attacks to be more easily canceled.
Fixed an issue where blinding cloud could cause Planetaries to not attack units at melee range in certain angles.
Fixed an issue with issuing orders on certain types of rocks in fog.
Fixed an issue with Changeling zealot move animation speed.
Tweaked Hydralisk move animation speed to match it’s actual movement speed (art only).
I mean I was barely watching SC2 before this so it's not like I have much to lose with these changes, let's go with it we'll see if I come back to watch more (but probably not)
I think some of the changes are a bit incoherent in terms of overall policy. So you heavily nerf mine drops and disruptors in previous patches because insta-lose moments feel bad, but then you buff disruptor range and blue flame hellions in the next patch? I don't really get it.
"Salvage ability added for Missile Turret and Sensor Tower" this sounds cool, but I worry it will make it easier for terrans to turtle. I like the Liberator change, it's super tough to deal with them when they have the extra range. The Energy Overcharge change sounds odd to me, feels weird to take away the battery overcharge when it feels like Protoss needs more tools to use, same with the change to Disruptor, the high damage per-hit feels like the only reason to use that unit.
Big patch, it's always nice to see sign of life. In general I'm always excited to see new stuff, so I'm all for it.
Some thoughts:
- I like the overcharge ability change in theory since it could create some cool play and cheese, but I don't see how it can possibly work without some early/early-mid game buff, especially in addition to an immortal nerf. Tank push and roach-ravager push will get a lot stronger.
- I like the new mothership, looks cool
- Turret salvage. Why in the world would we ever do that, it's just gonna make it easier to build 1000 turrets in a base late game.
- The lib range change is clever, I'm curious to see how it turns out.
- We shouldn't change the hatch and queens cost, it's just obnoxious for most player's early game and probably won't change anything.
- Hydra dash. I'll wait for my judgement, could be cool, but it could be a bit gimicky.
- Auto rally to mineral line for ressource centers and reducing the RNG on building scv: God yes
Just to add I guess, I thought hydras downside as a unit was they were a bit slow and clunky especially off creep. Seems like they're trying to remove the one downside of that unit which could lead to it being a little bit too good overall. (And yes I know that's hypocritical coming from a terran marine enjoyer)
Giving hydras a dash is the stupidest change I've heard in a while. But hey, it wouldn't be a balance council patch if it didn't have at least one completely unnecessary Zerg buff to a frequently used unit.
Is the blue flame hellion buff not insane? I remember everyone going for BFH against mineral lines, has the game changed enough that it will no longer be an issue?
It’s another patch where I don’t really see how the stated intentions and the proposed changes really mesh up. Also there’s quite a lot at once so it’s hard to gauge what they’ll do in combination, plus often times few of these actually make it off the PTR
On the other hand I like some of them, the QoL changes seem unequivocally good. It’s nice the game is still getting at least a little love
Given there’s feck all pro action going on, feels an ideal time for some intrepid souls to get some fun PTR tournaments on.
The shield battery certainly slowed games down as more often then not you'd see people back off and wait rather than dive in and chance it, so that will be interesting. Guessing we'd be replacing shielded units with mass storm/oracle beam so not sure how fun it would be to see people dive into those. The call down supply is interesting too, could be used for scrappy games but think for most the Mule/scan energy would still be more useful.
Overall some interesting changes but the fact they are still making changes to the game says to me they plan on keeping this game on the circuit for a while longer as wouldn't make sense to keep make changes to the game if no-one is playing/watching it.
I don't really follow or play SC2 at this point so my opinion and analysis admittedly mean diddly squat but this patch...confuses me.
For one stated intentions are to reduce camping and big blow out effects (which I find to be noble goals). However execution is questionable. Between buffing salvage, sensor towers, spines, spores and brood lords, I question if camping is truly discouraged. As far as big blow outs go, the blue flame buff is...terrifying, and rebuffing disruptors is odd to me.
This brings me to my 2nd point of confusion. I may be incorrect here but not only is Protoss in a weak spot (at least at the pro scene) but is hyperfocused on the disruptor, a unit who's explosivity (figuratively and literally) determines games. Much like the warp gate nerf when LotV launched...I feel like Protoss needs to adjusted significantly such that they have buffed tools and a nerfed disruptor?
Honestly I read overall as more nerfs than buffs to Toss with it's biggest buff being the Queen nerf which I find perplexing.
Cool to see this many changes (and new spells) but overall I'm confused. Can anyone explain where I'm going wrong here?
My overall impression of these changes is that I just... don't really get the idea? Like what vision of the game do these actually help achieve? I can pick out individual changes that I think might be good, but not sure what the overall picture is.
Also hydra stim is silly, it does not fit the unit at all and feels rather clunky.
Balance Council is all over the place as usual.... Some of these changes make sense, like the Hellion change considering Blue Flame Hellion takes a while to hit. But some of the other changes, like Stimmed Hydralisks, not so much.
I like some of these changes like the changes to Salvage, the nerf to Queens (I'll always celebrate Queen nerfs) and the removal of Battery Overcharge.
But the sum total of the unit changes just add up to a whole lot of nothing IMO. Except Hydralisks got the biggest buff in here, and I can't understand why. Why do Hydralisks need yet another buff? Where is the fucking data that is suggesting that Zerg needs Hydralisks to have Stimpacks?
This looks like the Cyclone changes to me. No one asked for it, Zerg definitely doesn't need it, and it will absolutely cause a ruckus in the meta for no discernable reason than some dev thinks it's "cool."
Please just buff Immortal and Colossus movement speed. These units are too slow to do what protoss players want to do (moving around the map aggressively).
Protoss is absolutely nerfed, especially against Z. A 32% reduction in disruptor damage no where close to a fair tradeoff for unnerfing the radius, and now Hydras (the main high-value ground unit that still get one shot with the new damage) can easily just dash away.
Also hilarious that they consider the cyclone change a success, since the the only thing they succeeded at was making the unit irrelevant.
The first goal is to nerf defensive and camping playstyles for all races, both related to early and late game on the higher levels of play. We will target specific units, buildings and abilities suited for camping, to promote more active gameplay across all stages of the game.
Good timing, I had just found the professional way to say "I do you so"...
We identified this as a strong possibility early on release of HOTS. Too bad it took so long and this doesn't address the core issues.
i was probably going to win the ESL this year if they didn't make these changes.
seriously, these changes are interesting. i think its great that the balance council takes into account several levels of play. the balance council should be getting paid. C'mon M$ give these guys some money. If the Balance Council started a funding drive I'd donate. Furthermore, I do not look at it as a "charitable donation". I am getting a quality game play experience in return.
On October 22 2024 05:07 Cricketer12 wrote: I don't really follow or play SC2 at this point so my opinion and analysis admittedly mean diddly squat but this patch...confuses me.
For one stated intentions are to reduce camping and big blow out effects (which I find to be noble goals). However execution is questionable. Between buffing salvage, sensor towers, spines, spores and brood lords, I question if camping is truly discouraged. As far as big blow outs go, the blue flame buff is...terrifying, and rebuffing disruptors is odd to me.
This brings me to my 2nd point of confusion. I may be incorrect here but not only is Protoss in a weak spot (at least at the pro scene) but is hyperfocused on the disruptor, a unit who's explosivity (figuratively and literally) determines games. Much like the warp gate nerf when LotV launched...I feel like Protoss needs to adjusted significantly such that they have buffed tools and a nerfed disruptor?
Honestly I read overall as more nerfs than buffs to Toss with it's biggest buff being the Queen nerf which I find perplexing.
Cool to see this many changes (and new spells) but overall I'm confused. Can anyone explain where I'm going wrong here?
The disruptor isn't nearly as central for protoss as it use to be outside of pvp, I couldn't really tell you why honestly, one of the previous patch change. Protoss does well in lower level GM (and they seem to imply it's too strong/frustating in lower leagues), but yeah overall it read like a fairly big nerf to toss, at least until the late game.
On October 22 2024 04:01 Charoisaur wrote: Had to read the Broodlord change 3 times because it's the opposite of everything they said they wanted to achieve.
The Queen nerf is huge though so maybe Broodlords won't be a problem
25 more minerals is huge? Maybe early game but I feel as the game becomes a macro won't make much difference.
On October 22 2024 05:07 Cricketer12 wrote: I don't really follow or play SC2 at this point so my opinion and analysis admittedly mean diddly squat but this patch...confuses me.
For one stated intentions are to reduce camping and big blow out effects (which I find to be noble goals). However execution is questionable. Between buffing salvage, sensor towers, spines, spores and brood lords, I question if camping is truly discouraged. As far as big blow outs go, the blue flame buff is...terrifying, and rebuffing disruptors is odd to me.
This brings me to my 2nd point of confusion. I may be incorrect here but not only is Protoss in a weak spot (at least at the pro scene) but is hyperfocused on the disruptor, a unit who's explosivity (figuratively and literally) determines games. Much like the warp gate nerf when LotV launched...I feel like Protoss needs to adjusted significantly such that they have buffed tools and a nerfed disruptor?
Honestly I read overall as more nerfs than buffs to Toss with it's biggest buff being the Queen nerf which I find perplexing.
Cool to see this many changes (and new spells) but overall I'm confused. Can anyone explain where I'm going wrong here?
The disruptor isn't nearly as central for protoss as it use to be outside of pvp, I couldn't really tell you why honestly, one of the previous patch change. Protoss does well in lower level GM (and they seem to imply it's too strong/frustating in lower leagues), but yeah overall it read like a fairly big nerf to toss, at least until the late game.
The late game buffs aren't even significant.
Top tier Terrans don't care about the radius of the Disruptor's Purification nova. They're so good at dodging it, or killing the Disruptors before they get hit, that it hardly matters about a 20-25% increase in radius. This is something that's going to be more impactful on ladder than in pro games.
The Mothership is a meme. Buffing it hardly matters since it costs so much and takes so long to build. Even if it's marginally more effective in combat, you still are never going to want to use it as a combat unit because of how easily it can be sniped. The fact it's still able to be abducted by Vipers means it still needs to be babysat and kept behind your front lines against Zerg.
Having Tempests cost 1 less supply is definitely helpful, but won't change the late game of match ups too much.
They could have given Protoss these buffs without any of the counter-balancing nerfs and it still wouldn't make a significant difference at the tip top level.
These are only going to have an impact in GM and below where Protoss is already thriving on every server.
On October 22 2024 08:31 Vindicare605 wrote: Top tier Terrans don't care about the radius of the Disruptor's Purification nova. They're so good at dodging it, or killing the Disruptors before they get hit, that it hardly matters about a 20-25% increase in radius. This is something that's going to be more impactful on ladder than in pro games.
Purification novas move quite faster than a stimmed marine, theres a good chance that the radius increase makes novas become certain hits, on at least a few units.
These changes do not bode well for toss. Toss has underperformed for years since previous battery and disruptor nerfs. And now overcharge is removed, nice. And immortals of all things are nerfed?
The current Immortal (also colossus and tank in tank mode) have special auto targeting: their weapons still attack the closest enemy unit when they enter range as all other units, but after this enemy unit dies, they will automatical select the next enemy unit closest to the one you just killed, not the closest enemy unit to the Immortal itself. For example, when a Zerg attacks a Protoss with zergling and Roach, if the Protoss player manually command the Immortal to attack the roach behind, when the roach is killed, the Immortal will attack other enemy unit closer to the first roach, which is more likely to be other roaches behind. If the patch revert this turret targeting, the Immortal will be attack the closest enemy, which is more like to be zerglings.
The second goal is to continue reshaping Protoss tools for high-level gameplay. We believe there is still a major gap between how Protoss race plays and feels on the highest level of play and the levels below - current set of changes aims to make Protoss race slightly more efficient with the strongest and smartest execution while helping Terran and Zerg players against Protoss on the lower levels.
It's incredible, and it's definitely a great thing. Finally. The current situation has completely separated high-level gameplay from normal players, and you can only choose one for the balance between the two, which greatly reduces the number of players and the life of the game.
Disruptor
Purification Nova Radius increased from 1.375 to 1.5. Purification Nova Damage decreased from 145 (+55 vs Shields) to 100 (+100 vs Shields).
This is indeed one of the main issues that divides the player community. Professional players can avoid the Purification Nova through practice, but it is very difficult for normal players to do this, which is clearly not a good design. Thank goodness someone has finally noticed this. Changing the Purification Nova from a small area of high damage to a larger area of lower damage is an excellent direction for modification.
But this is still unreasonable in terms of numerical design. If Purification Nova deals 45% less damage to Terran and Zerg compared to before, then the range should be increased by at least 45% as well; otherwise, it would be too severe of a nerf. However, increasing the radius from 1.375 to 1.5 only increases the effective range by about 19%, which is not reasonable. According to mathematical calculations, the radius should be increased to 1.65 to reflect a 45% increase, and I believe it should be at least 1.75.
Furthermore, further reworking Purification Nova by changing the damage of Purification Nova to segmented damage or damage over time would be even better. For example, reduce the the damage of Purification Nova to 80 points or even lower, but cause continuous area damage at the area of effect, similar to Psionic Storm. Alternatively, after the effect of Purification Nova occurs, create a delayed low-damage secondary Purification Nova at the same location, similar to Corrosive Bile some how.
Turning a one-time confrontation into a continuous confrontation will better reshape the high-level gameplay.
On October 22 2024 12:20 Blitzball04 wrote: It is just me or does this patch looks like another nerf to toss ?
In what world does removing battery overcharge help Protoss survive any early - mid aggression? It’s already struggling with it
The salvaging turrets is one of the dumbest ideas. Really no need to explain why.
Zerg changes, not too sure about it yet. Have to see it in action first
It is a nerf to Protoss. Removing Battery Overcharge without any kind of compensation (the proposed energy recharge is a joke) is a pretty substantial nerf.
The other changes hardly matter compared to that one.
Disruptors can't one shot Roaches or Marauders anymore. Meaning they are pretty useless in PvZ. Oh but hey Tempests cost 1 less supply and Motherships are a tiny bit better in combat but cost 400/400/8 again.
None of it helps Protoss. And the removal of Battery Overcharge means they'll die to a lot more all ins, especially Roach Ravager all ins they would have held before.
And this is without taking into consideration the goodies that Zerg got like the buffs to Hydras and Broodlords and the QoL buff for the Ultralisk. Oh but Queens cost 25 minerals more now! big deal.
Thankfully none of the Terran buffs seem like they will do anything in TvP.
New ability added: Energy Overcharge. Energy Overcharge costs 50 Energy and recharges 100 Energy of the targeted allied unit or structure with a maximum range of 8.
This approach is too complicated and may prevent the intended goals from being achieved. Since Shield Battery Overcharge is primarily for defense, it would be better to directly change it to provide an additional shield for a unit, with the shield value being upgradeable through tech. Additionally, making this new shield ability applicable across the entire map would help, just like Strategic Recall. In the lategame, this would also partially address the issue of the Protoss ultimate army being weaker, especially in high-level gameplay.
On October 22 2024 02:58 MJG wrote: Honestly, these changes are terrible and scatter-brained
Could you elaborate on that?
Here is one example:
The previous patch nerfed Widow Mines, which was to reduce game-ending moments of harassment.
This patch buffs Blue Flame Hellions, which will increase game-ending moment of harassment.
Here is another example:
The stated aim of this patch is to reduce camping, so Queens are going to cost 25 minerals more.
However, the Hatchery costs 25 minerals less, so the first Queen from each Hatchery essentially costs the same.
After you have your first Queen from each Hatchery, economies scale so quickly in Legacy of the Void that the additional cost of further Queens is basically irrelevant in the broad scheme of things.
At the same time, the Spore Crawler, the Spine Crawler, the Infestor, and Brood Lords are all being buffed.
This is a buff to camping, not a nerf.
I also think that making Hatcheries cheaper is ridiculous. They should cost 400 like every other town hall, not less than they already do, though I guess I'd settle for 350 to make up for the cost of the Drone...
EDIT:
I'd also like to mention that this patch represents an overall nerf to Protoss, a race that hasn't won a premier tournament for two years. It often seems like the Protoss players on the balance council have misplaced their spines...
The first goal is to nerf defensive and camping playstyles:
Spine Crawler • Build Time decreased from 36 to 32. • Damage increased from 25 (+5 vs Armored) to 30. Spore Crawler • Damage increased from 15 to 20. • HP decreased from 400 to 300.
Liberator • Advanced Ballistics effect changed from providing +2 range in Defender mode to increasing the radius in Defender mode from 5 to 6.25 (56% area increase). • Smart Servos upgrade is now also affecting Liberators. With Smart Servos, Liberator siege time is decreased from 2.89 to 2.12 (26.6% reduction) and unsiege time is decreased from 1.46 to 1.13 (23% reduction).
Bunker, Missile Turret, Sensor Tower • Salvage ability added for Missile Turret and Sensor Tower (also returning 75% of their cost). • Salvage process is now being canceled upon taking damage.
Shield Battery • Shield and HP increased from 150/150 to 200/200.
Is it just me or don't these changes really line up with the goal to nerf defensive playstyles?
The first goal is to nerf defensive and camping playstyles:
Spine Crawler • Build Time decreased from 36 to 32. • Damage increased from 25 (+5 vs Armored) to 30. Spore Crawler • Damage increased from 15 to 20. • HP decreased from 400 to 300.
Liberator • Advanced Ballistics effect changed from providing +2 range in Defender mode to increasing the radius in Defender mode from 5 to 6.25 (56% area increase). • Smart Servos upgrade is now also affecting Liberators. With Smart Servos, Liberator siege time is decreased from 2.89 to 2.12 (26.6% reduction) and unsiege time is decreased from 1.46 to 1.13 (23% reduction).
Bunker, Missile Turret, Sensor Tower • Salvage ability added for Missile Turret and Sensor Tower (also returning 75% of their cost). • Salvage process is now being canceled upon taking damage.
Shield Battery • Shield and HP increased from 150/150 to 200/200.
Is it just me or don't these changes really line up with the goal to nerf defensive playstyles?
They don't.
This is what happens when you put the lunatics in charge of the asylum.
I'm happy that there are so many people are caring about the the patch.
I'm also not sure what it will be like in the game either, but I find the general mood of badmouthing everything unproductive and biased. In my opinion you have to play a lot of games on the patch to evaluate the changes. My guesses and thoughts: I find the Hatchery and Queens changes very interesting. fewer queens, possibly more hatcherys, 1-2 spines against early attacks. The only concern I have is that 16 marine drops may be harder to defend as an opening. The change to photon overcharge also seems to make sense. It will be interesting to see how the new ability really works and how practical it is to use. The disruptor is now buffed against marines and hydras and nerfed against roaches and marauders. I'm undecided whether that makes sense. At my level (Master 1) it is already very difficult to play against disruptor and when I imagine that my marines all still die with one shot and the radius is larger, I think that is questionable. This change could also have a greater impact at higher levels (see stream Heromarine). Defensive play of terra is now nerfed with the changes to the planetary fortress and sensor towers. Liberator, Ultra, Hydra have all received interesting changes that I'm excited to see how these play out in the game!
Do we know, when the changes go live? I couldnt find any information...
Exciting times - I think they've got a lot of good ideas in here that can make the game feel quite a bit better for most players while not massively warping pro balance. Won't be at all surprised if Disruptor changes don't end up feeling like a buff in the end (though I think we may still see a supply tweak again too)
On October 22 2024 17:19 angry_maia wrote: people DO remember that disruptors used to have a 1.5 radius along with 145 damage right? It wasn't like protoss dominated during that era..
What you have to remember is that Protoss got dangerously close to winning a Premier tournament when ShoWTimE almost won HomeStory Cup. Something had to be done!
Always nice to have a patch I don't play the game anymore and I barely watch it but I cannot help thinking as a biaised zerg the hellion blue flame two shotting workers is a very bad idea. The protoss energy recharge seems pretty bad as well
On October 22 2024 17:19 angry_maia wrote: people DO remember that disruptors used to have a 1.5 radius along with 145 damage right? It wasn't like protoss dominated during that era..
Disruptors weren't nerfed because of tournament results, they were nerfed because everyone hates playing against them at every level below that.
The same logic was used for nerfing Widow Mines which everyone (except a few of us here on TL) celebrated.
The balance council doesn't seem to care about balancing around the top level. That much should be incredibly clear to everyone at this point. These changes are directed towards GM level and lower.
Advanced Ballistics effect changed from providing +2 range in Defender mode to increasing the radius in Defender mode from 5 to 6.25 (56% area increase).
So basically Libs have 0,75 shorter range but a huuuuuge radius. That seems like a crazy buff and is going to be even more obnoxious for Stalker / Queens to defend
I do like the Shield battery change. You can now warp in insta Storm Templar again when you have some batteries prepped.
Overall I agree with most of you. The goal is to restrict camping and then proceding to buff all camping structures seems weird...
As a Protoss player, idk how this will effect the pro-level, but for my not great level in Diamond, this patch will make my life much harder...
Terrans at my level often make blind turrets which makes stargate openings weaker, now every single terran can do this and not have to worry too much about the cost, get the money back and then if they need them later on, spam them out knowing that they're basically banking money...
And then the combination of the removal of overcharge and immortal nerf means holding any kind of aggression early on from terran or zerg has become way harder. It's something that can go eitherway at the moment as it is, just down to control and mechanics... so now this just tips that much further into the hand of terrans and zergs...
Then assuming you live long enough the number one problem for Protosses is dealing with either ghost bio, or hydra lurker armies. Hydras got a buff, which to me just makes tempest based transitions to deal with lurkers a non-starter, despite the change I think... disruptors got a nerf to damage, meaning you can't really use them as a crux and while I hate the unit protoss needs something that can't just be hard countered.. I don't really see the small buff to collosus really making any changes?
PvP is pretty decent at the moment, and this balance patch should make PvP more interesting, but it kinda feels like every other matchup just got harder... and with the battery change and immortal nerf, basically every opening now for P has to change
Change is definitely necessary but as others have pointed out almost all of these seem objectively bad.
Protoss somehow makes it out with neutral changes or nerfs while the other two get mostly neutral and buffs?
The energy thing is just going to enable some oracle cheese and not much else. Might as well reinstate kaydarin amulet but only defensively warped in near nexus. Disruptors no longer 1 shotting marauders/roaches seems to be a sizable nerf. The radius is the same and the unit used to cost 1 less supply and we still didn't have many p wins.
2 shotting workers with blue flame is something nobody wants. +3 with blue flame is acceptable to do it but outside of that that one can be deleted. Thor change pretty unnecessary. It can already do well vs mass air, not to mention Terran also has another aoe option ontop of man with gun and vikings. Call down supply change is novel and welcomed. about the only truly good proposed change on the list. Liberators are already a cementing win condition late game regardless of their range or coverage. Making them able to siege even faster is borderline trolling.
Why not just increase queen energy regen slightly and limit it to one per hatchery. No need for the cost increase you could probably even go the other way. We've had a group of 4+ queens waddling around being catch all early game defense for well over a decade now, seems like perfect time for a change.
The changes contradicting the goals is the real head scratcher here.
On October 22 2024 17:19 angry_maia wrote: people DO remember that disruptors used to have a 1.5 radius along with 145 damage right? It wasn't like protoss dominated during that era..
Disruptors weren't nerfed because of tournament results, they were nerfed because everyone hates playing against them at every level below that.
The same logic was used for nerfing Widow Mines which everyone (except a few of us here on TL) celebrated.
The balance council doesn't seem to care about balancing around the top level. That much should be incredibly clear to everyone at this point. These changes are directed towards GM level and lower.
Nah I think they’re trying to balance doing both, but for whatever reason don’t have good ways or ideas to do it with Protoss
Zerg hatch/Queen costs may make a slight difference with how optimised pro builds are for example, I can’t see that permeating down too far. Likewise how many players are going to actually make much use of the hydra dash (someone on Reddit said it should be called slither, or something like ‘explosive musculature’ and I heartily agree) off a duration of 0.7 seconds. I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone who isn’t Dark make microbial shroud work consistently, so I think some of those are scaled at that high competitive level
I think there’s the genesis of something here, the missing piece of the puzzle is to do what they’ve done elsewhere and give Protoss another toy to a non-niche or easily integrated niche unit
Part 1 is this energy booster, I think many a theorycrafter has proposed it, I quite like it. I think it may augment Oracles, and to a lesser degree Phoenixes, they can top up their reserves and have that little bit more staying power.
Part 2 I think is give the Sentry some kind of offensively minded ability to augment your army. Could be movement speed, attack speed, whatever. It would dovetail well with this energy boost proposed change
I’d be in favour of just removing the energy requirement from graviton beam altogether. They’re one of Protoss’ high-skill APM sinks as it is and require direct control to do damage, do they need to have that energy requirement?
There are very few harassment-focused units in the game that you can catch your opponent completely with their pants down and have the damage you do be capped in such a way. Protoss have 2 of them, I think it makes sense in the case of Oracles as they have so much other utility, so having to make decisions on energy use I think adds some tactical complexity.
Plus the game in general has sped up so much, including devastating harassment options so maybe making that tweak to phoenixes brings them a bit more into line with how the game has evolved
On October 22 2024 17:19 angry_maia wrote: people DO remember that disruptors used to have a 1.5 radius along with 145 damage right? It wasn't like protoss dominated during that era..
Disruptors weren't nerfed because of tournament results, they were nerfed because everyone hates playing against them at every level below that.
The same logic was used for nerfing Widow Mines which everyone (except a few of us here on TL) celebrated.
The balance council doesn't seem to care about balancing around the top level. That much should be incredibly clear to everyone at this point. These changes are directed towards GM level and lower.
Nah I think they’re trying to balance doing both, but for whatever reason don’t have good ways or ideas to do it with Protoss
Zerg hatch/Queen costs may make a slight difference with how optimised pro builds are for example, I can’t see that permeating down too far. Likewise how many players are going to actually make much use of the hydra dash (someone on Reddit said it should be called slither, or something like ‘explosive musculature’ and I heartily agree) off a duration of 0.7 seconds. I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone who isn’t Dark make microbial shroud work consistently, so I think some of those are scaled at that high competitive level
I think there’s the genesis of something here, the missing piece of the puzzle is to do what they’ve done elsewhere and give Protoss another toy to a non-niche or easily integrated niche unit
Part 1 is this energy booster, I think many a theorycrafter has proposed it, I quite like it. I think it may augment Oracles, and to a lesser degree Phoenixes, they can top up their reserves and have that little bit more staying power.
Part 2 I think is give the Sentry some kind of offensively minded ability to augment your army. Could be movement speed, attack speed, whatever. It would dovetail well with this energy boost proposed change
I’d be in favour of just removing the energy requirement from graviton beam altogether. They’re one of Protoss’ high-skill APM sinks as it is and require direct control to do damage, do they need to have that energy requirement?
There are very few harassment-focused units in the game that you can catch your opponent completely with their pants down and have the damage you do be capped in such a way. Protoss have 2 of them, I think it makes sense in the case of Oracles as they have so much other utility, so having to make decisions on energy use I think adds some tactical complexity.
Plus the game in general has sped up so much, including devastating harassment options so maybe making that tweak to phoenixes brings them a bit more into line with how the game has evolved
Removing Energy from Phoenix is a non-starter IMO. Mass Phoenix needs downsides. Worker harass PvX and everything PvP. Whats there to stop Phoenix in PvP?
On October 22 2024 17:19 angry_maia wrote: people DO remember that disruptors used to have a 1.5 radius along with 145 damage right? It wasn't like protoss dominated during that era..
Disruptors weren't nerfed because of tournament results, they were nerfed because everyone hates playing against them at every level below that.
The same logic was used for nerfing Widow Mines which everyone (except a few of us here on TL) celebrated.
The balance council doesn't seem to care about balancing around the top level. That much should be incredibly clear to everyone at this point. These changes are directed towards GM level and lower.
Nah I think they’re trying to balance doing both, but for whatever reason don’t have good ways or ideas to do it with Protoss
Zerg hatch/Queen costs may make a slight difference with how optimised pro builds are for example, I can’t see that permeating down too far. Likewise how many players are going to actually make much use of the hydra dash (someone on Reddit said it should be called slither, or something like ‘explosive musculature’ and I heartily agree) off a duration of 0.7 seconds. I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone who isn’t Dark make microbial shroud work consistently, so I think some of those are scaled at that high competitive level
I think there’s the genesis of something here, the missing piece of the puzzle is to do what they’ve done elsewhere and give Protoss another toy to a non-niche or easily integrated niche unit
Part 1 is this energy booster, I think many a theorycrafter has proposed it, I quite like it. I think it may augment Oracles, and to a lesser degree Phoenixes, they can top up their reserves and have that little bit more staying power.
Part 2 I think is give the Sentry some kind of offensively minded ability to augment your army. Could be movement speed, attack speed, whatever. It would dovetail well with this energy boost proposed change
I’d be in favour of just removing the energy requirement from graviton beam altogether. They’re one of Protoss’ high-skill APM sinks as it is and require direct control to do damage, do they need to have that energy requirement?
There are very few harassment-focused units in the game that you can catch your opponent completely with their pants down and have the damage you do be capped in such a way. Protoss have 2 of them, I think it makes sense in the case of Oracles as they have so much other utility, so having to make decisions on energy use I think adds some tactical complexity.
Plus the game in general has sped up so much, including devastating harassment options so maybe making that tweak to phoenixes brings them a bit more into line with how the game has evolved
Removing Energy from Phoenix is a non-starter IMO. Mass Phoenix needs downsides. Worker harass PvX and everything PvP. Whats there to stop Phoenix in PvP?
Ideally, Stalkers and Void Rays should be able to counter Phoenixes in PvP since they are both core combat units and not harassment units but Stalkers suck without Blink since they have to be balanced around Warp Gate, and Void Rays are just a shit unit design.
So Phoenixes exploit a hole in the Protoss roster, that doesnt really exist in any other match up since Terran air units aren't mobile enough to evade Stalkers effectively and Phoenixes counter Mutalisks.
So what we're left with is Phoenixes having a weakness they shouldn't have against Terran and Zerg because they'd be too oppressive in their mirror match and they're only oppressive in their mirror match because of other awful unit and mechanic designs in the Protoss design.
On October 22 2024 17:19 angry_maia wrote: people DO remember that disruptors used to have a 1.5 radius along with 145 damage right? It wasn't like protoss dominated during that era..
Disruptors weren't nerfed because of tournament results, they were nerfed because everyone hates playing against them at every level below that.
The same logic was used for nerfing Widow Mines which everyone (except a few of us here on TL) celebrated.
The balance council doesn't seem to care about balancing around the top level. That much should be incredibly clear to everyone at this point. These changes are directed towards GM level and lower.
Nah I think they’re trying to balance doing both, but for whatever reason don’t have good ways or ideas to do it with Protoss
Zerg hatch/Queen costs may make a slight difference with how optimised pro builds are for example, I can’t see that permeating down too far. Likewise how many players are going to actually make much use of the hydra dash (someone on Reddit said it should be called slither, or something like ‘explosive musculature’ and I heartily agree) off a duration of 0.7 seconds. I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone who isn’t Dark make microbial shroud work consistently, so I think some of those are scaled at that high competitive level
I think there’s the genesis of something here, the missing piece of the puzzle is to do what they’ve done elsewhere and give Protoss another toy to a non-niche or easily integrated niche unit
Part 1 is this energy booster, I think many a theorycrafter has proposed it, I quite like it. I think it may augment Oracles, and to a lesser degree Phoenixes, they can top up their reserves and have that little bit more staying power.
Part 2 I think is give the Sentry some kind of offensively minded ability to augment your army. Could be movement speed, attack speed, whatever. It would dovetail well with this energy boost proposed change
I’d be in favour of just removing the energy requirement from graviton beam altogether. They’re one of Protoss’ high-skill APM sinks as it is and require direct control to do damage, do they need to have that energy requirement?
There are very few harassment-focused units in the game that you can catch your opponent completely with their pants down and have the damage you do be capped in such a way. Protoss have 2 of them, I think it makes sense in the case of Oracles as they have so much other utility, so having to make decisions on energy use I think adds some tactical complexity.
Plus the game in general has sped up so much, including devastating harassment options so maybe making that tweak to phoenixes brings them a bit more into line with how the game has evolved
Removing Energy from Phoenix is a non-starter IMO. Mass Phoenix needs downsides. Worker harass PvX and everything PvP. Whats there to stop Phoenix in PvP?
Certainly a valid concern, ideally other units. The Phoenix swings from being possibly my favourite unit, to one of my least as things scale. I’m not sure it’s really their energy that’s the thing pushing mass phoenix out of the meta in PvP, but if I am wrong and we see mass phoenix again, revert my (completely hypothetical) change
Alternatively, we could lower the cast cost, but add a channel cost on top of that. Maybe that’s a bit more elegant
That way you could disengage without burning energy to the same degree, but there is still an associated cost
On October 22 2024 17:19 angry_maia wrote: people DO remember that disruptors used to have a 1.5 radius along with 145 damage right? It wasn't like protoss dominated during that era..
Disruptors weren't nerfed because of tournament results, they were nerfed because everyone hates playing against them at every level below that.
The same logic was used for nerfing Widow Mines which everyone (except a few of us here on TL) celebrated.
The balance council doesn't seem to care about balancing around the top level. That much should be incredibly clear to everyone at this point. These changes are directed towards GM level and lower.
Nah I think they’re trying to balance doing both, but for whatever reason don’t have good ways or ideas to do it with Protoss
Zerg hatch/Queen costs may make a slight difference with how optimised pro builds are for example, I can’t see that permeating down too far. Likewise how many players are going to actually make much use of the hydra dash (someone on Reddit said it should be called slither, or something like ‘explosive musculature’ and I heartily agree) off a duration of 0.7 seconds. I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone who isn’t Dark make microbial shroud work consistently, so I think some of those are scaled at that high competitive level
I think there’s the genesis of something here, the missing piece of the puzzle is to do what they’ve done elsewhere and give Protoss another toy to a non-niche or easily integrated niche unit
Part 1 is this energy booster, I think many a theorycrafter has proposed it, I quite like it. I think it may augment Oracles, and to a lesser degree Phoenixes, they can top up their reserves and have that little bit more staying power.
Part 2 I think is give the Sentry some kind of offensively minded ability to augment your army. Could be movement speed, attack speed, whatever. It would dovetail well with this energy boost proposed change
I’d be in favour of just removing the energy requirement from graviton beam altogether. They’re one of Protoss’ high-skill APM sinks as it is and require direct control to do damage, do they need to have that energy requirement?
There are very few harassment-focused units in the game that you can catch your opponent completely with their pants down and have the damage you do be capped in such a way. Protoss have 2 of them, I think it makes sense in the case of Oracles as they have so much other utility, so having to make decisions on energy use I think adds some tactical complexity.
Plus the game in general has sped up so much, including devastating harassment options so maybe making that tweak to phoenixes brings them a bit more into line with how the game has evolved
Removing Energy from Phoenix is a non-starter IMO. Mass Phoenix needs downsides. Worker harass PvX and everything PvP. Whats there to stop Phoenix in PvP?
Ideally, Stalkers and Void Rays should be able to counter Phoenixes in PvP since they are both core combat units and not harassment units but Stalkers suck without Blink since they have to be balanced around Warp Gate, and Void Rays are just a shit unit design.
So Phoenixes exploit a hole in the Protoss roster, that doesnt really exist in any other match up since Terran air units aren't mobile enough to evade Stalkers effectively and Phoenixes counter Mutalisks.
So what we're left with is Phoenixes having a weakness they shouldn't have against Terran and Zerg because they'd be too oppressive in their mirror match and they're only oppressive in their mirror match because of other awful unit and mechanic designs in the Protoss design.
On October 22 2024 17:19 angry_maia wrote: people DO remember that disruptors used to have a 1.5 radius along with 145 damage right? It wasn't like protoss dominated during that era..
Disruptors weren't nerfed because of tournament results, they were nerfed because everyone hates playing against them at every level below that.
The same logic was used for nerfing Widow Mines which everyone (except a few of us here on TL) celebrated.
The balance council doesn't seem to care about balancing around the top level. That much should be incredibly clear to everyone at this point. These changes are directed towards GM level and lower.
Nah I think they’re trying to balance doing both, but for whatever reason don’t have good ways or ideas to do it with Protoss
Zerg hatch/Queen costs may make a slight difference with how optimised pro builds are for example, I can’t see that permeating down too far. Likewise how many players are going to actually make much use of the hydra dash (someone on Reddit said it should be called slither, or something like ‘explosive musculature’ and I heartily agree) off a duration of 0.7 seconds. I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone who isn’t Dark make microbial shroud work consistently, so I think some of those are scaled at that high competitive level
I think there’s the genesis of something here, the missing piece of the puzzle is to do what they’ve done elsewhere and give Protoss another toy to a non-niche or easily integrated niche unit
Part 1 is this energy booster, I think many a theorycrafter has proposed it, I quite like it. I think it may augment Oracles, and to a lesser degree Phoenixes, they can top up their reserves and have that little bit more staying power.
Part 2 I think is give the Sentry some kind of offensively minded ability to augment your army. Could be movement speed, attack speed, whatever. It would dovetail well with this energy boost proposed change
I’d be in favour of just removing the energy requirement from graviton beam altogether. They’re one of Protoss’ high-skill APM sinks as it is and require direct control to do damage, do they need to have that energy requirement?
There are very few harassment-focused units in the game that you can catch your opponent completely with their pants down and have the damage you do be capped in such a way. Protoss have 2 of them, I think it makes sense in the case of Oracles as they have so much other utility, so having to make decisions on energy use I think adds some tactical complexity.
Plus the game in general has sped up so much, including devastating harassment options so maybe making that tweak to phoenixes brings them a bit more into line with how the game has evolved
Removing Energy from Phoenix is a non-starter IMO. Mass Phoenix needs downsides. Worker harass PvX and everything PvP. Whats there to stop Phoenix in PvP?
Ideally, Stalkers and Void Rays should be able to counter Phoenixes in PvP since they are both core combat units and not harassment units but Stalkers suck without Blink since they have to be balanced around Warp Gate, and Void Rays are just a shit unit design.
So Phoenixes exploit a hole in the Protoss roster, that doesnt really exist in any other match up since Terran air units aren't mobile enough to evade Stalkers effectively and Phoenixes counter Mutalisks.
So what we're left with is Phoenixes having a weakness they shouldn't have against Terran and Zerg because they'd be too oppressive in their mirror match and they're only oppressive in their mirror match because of other awful unit and mechanic designs in the Protoss design.
Fun how it always goes back to the same places.
Exactly. But even Stalkers with Blink would be quite useless. Imagine my 8-10 Phoenixes come raid your mineral lines. You have some Blink Stalkers there and warp in some additional. Now I lift all your Stalkers and can still kill probes or even go for the Stalkers directly if numbers favor me. HT's would also be useless since no more feedback. This would spiral out of control quite quickly and you either have to go back with the complete army or go allin.
Anyway. I do like they are trying some bigger changes with the patch, but I don't like half of them. I'd wish for some additional change for the 400/400 meme unit. A new Spell! Call it "Anchor" and it makes the unit fortified upping Armor or Shields and unmovable for ~10 sec with a ~2min CD
EDIT: Or "Revert" putting the unit back where it was 10 sec ago
Changing the price of the hatchery after 14 years ranks among some of the most heinous offenses I've ever seen. And, not because it will alter all Z builds, but because that number (300 minerals) has some sanctity after nearly 15 years.
Part 1 is this energy booster, I think many a theorycrafter has proposed it, I quite like it. I think it may augment Oracles, and to a lesser degree Phoenixes, they can top up their reserves and have that little bit more staying power.
Looking at some early PTR games one of the strongest applications of the energy booster may just be juicing sentries up. Astrea and Harstem are really making them look very useful.
Also passively helps out some protoss options like phoenix openings as you can get out on the map more aggressively while being able to stall out at home if you're unlucky with when you're out on the map.
It might not be strong enough yet, we will see, but I think it's a much more interesting idea than just press the panic overcharge button
On October 22 2024 04:01 Charoisaur wrote: Had to read the Broodlord change 3 times because it's the opposite of everything they said they wanted to achieve.
The Queen nerf is huge though so maybe Broodlords won't be a problem
25 more minerals is huge? Maybe early game but I feel as the game becomes a macro won't make much difference.
Well, with the reduced cost of hatcheries it balances the cost out for the initial Queen but every subsequent Queen will be an additional 25 minerals. In early game Zergs often go to like 8 Queens (at least) which will be an additional 100 minerals spent on 4 bases, which in the early game where everything is so optimized is quite huge. Imagine Engineering bays costing 50 minerals more each, I think it's quite similar
On October 22 2024 04:01 Charoisaur wrote: Had to read the Broodlord change 3 times because it's the opposite of everything they said they wanted to achieve.
The Queen nerf is huge though so maybe Broodlords won't be a problem
25 more minerals is huge? Maybe early game but I feel as the game becomes a macro won't make much difference.
Well, with the reduced cost of hatcheries it balances the cost out for the initial Queen but every subsequent Queen will be an additional 25 minerals. In early game Zergs often go to like 8 Queens (at least) which will be an additional 100 minerals spent on 4 bases, which in the early game where everything is so optimized is quite huge. Imagine Engineering bays costing 50 minerals more each, I think it's quite similar
This is a massive nerf to Elazer. His Elazerlord count will have to be one fewer!
Seems most are very mixed/worried about these changes, but I'm actually really liking the idea behind most of them, balance tweaking aside!
The dev comments are much better and more accurately cover the impacts of the change Many changes are more targetted/nuanced than usual and consider several different situations it'd impact The ideas are more bold than usual, a couple are weird and seem unnecessary like the Hydra dash, but most ideas I really like! (Again, not focusing on the balance too much)
Want to just say that I suggested several of these ideas before, so it's really cool to see them being tried out: -Replacing Battery Overcharge with boosting a unit/structure with energy, AND compensating by giving Battery more HP/Shield! (I haven't tried PTR but it'd be even better if this has no global cooldown, so Protoss has a macro mechanic that scales into lategame!) My suggestion also included slightlyy buffing Battery heal rate (as in using its energy faster), but getting the energy for 2 FF, 1 storm, or 1 stasis trap can indeed be potent enough early game to potentially replace Battery Overcharge! 2 FF could be enough to delay their push by roughly the same amount of time as Battery Overcharge lasts anyways! This could be really cool because this could also allow HTs to be warped in slightly later, being able to energy charge them to be ready for Storm, which could allow for some new HT timings! This could potentially buff the option to take far away or forward expos, as warping in HTs around the map to zone would be slightly easier as you can energy charge them right away! More spread out gameplay is good!
-Keep MS identity, and just buff its dps cus it was so weak
-Making Colossus closer to a soft-counter or response to the Ghost (Colossus should > Ghost because Ghost > HT and HT > Viking and Viking > Colossus), though they did it by making EMP less effective, they could go farther by making Ghost Light so there could be more interesting Adept/Phoenix usage in comps, and they can't clump as recklessly vs Banelings
-Buffing Blue Flame again - I had suggested to make Blue Flame upgrade give +2 (+3 vs Light) instead of +5 vs Light so that it's less specialized and just slightly less useless when engaging Marauder/Stalker/Roach, but pushing its strength against Light units is also a valid direction. Making Hellions potent against Marines again will help Mech open TvT without being so susceptible to early aggression. Hellions being more viable vs chargelots and mass gateway styles, and not needing to resort to Hellbat mode as much, will also be a great help in addressing one of Mech's biggest issues in LotV TvP. Unlike Hellbats, Hellions are much more active and microable and chargelots can still split up, so this won't be an unhealthy change! For the general design, Marines were way too good mineral units compared to Mech's Hellion, so buffing the Hellion will help address one of Mech's drawbacks and round out some areas of its play to make it more viable overall. Yes, +10 vs Light was OP in WoL 2011 but times are different, let's try this now that there have been many nerfs to Mech playstyle overall (LotV economy changes, Raven becoming more of a Bio spellcaster than Mech, Vipers, Disruptors, Interference Matrix, etc.). I understand that it might seem inconsistent to nerf WM drops and Disruptors just to buff Hellions - but Blue Flame is a Factory tech upgrade, and naturally will be more of an investment to Bio players. Whereas WM drops were effective without even needing Drilling Claws.
-Reverting Immortal cost to 250. Coupling it with a slight dps nerf seems fine vs Zerg, it will also help Mech slightly.
-Change Hatch to 275 and make Queen 175. This also slightly increases the effectiveness of getting macro hatches!!
-Reverting Disruptor to 1.5 radius is good for a 4 supply unit. Lessening the potential of 1-shot kills and requiring more shots, and making it slightly more effective vs small fast units is a good idea, and slightly less effective vs big slow units like Ravagers or Mech.
Other ideas in the patch that interest me: -Salvageable turrets/sensor towers, and cheaper but also weaker sensor towers. I love this!!! I understand the worries about if it might accidentally increase camping potential, we'll have to see. But the idea of promoting Turrets/Sensor towers for Terran pushes is something that should help Mech especially more than Bio to move around and be aggressive/active on the map! Positional play is not camping! This also helps make up for Auto Turret being changed away from a long-duration weak turret that could help with pushes.This could be huge for Mech and I'm super excited to try it out!
-PF armor being reduced, i don't think this is necessary, Marines and Lings are strong enough against it, but I suppose that Zealots/Stalkers were too weak against it without Immortals to help. Maybe the HP can be increased by 100 to make up for it, or maybe it's fine.
-Liberator losing slight range for more radius - I like this direction! However, it only loses 0.75 effective range while gaining 56% AOE, that's a MASSIVE increase to its upfront dps potential! I'm worried this will also decrease the counterplay for Stalkers and such to be able to maneuver around them, and make upfront engagements even more devastating. I don't think the radius needs to be increased this much! Maybe just increase the radius to 6 max?
-Thor explosive payload is interesting, I will miss the zoning ability of it vs Mutas and using it to punish clumped harass. However, if it will be much more usable in other situations that might be worth giving that classic interaction up. It has WAY more splash, so this would be punishing for many air units, and it might end up being very potent vs clearing Interceptors. I'm curious to try this out, but at the same time I'd prefer it to keep its range to be 9 in exchange for slightly less dps.
I agree with Ultras being stuck less, Broodlings getting some of their strength back, Microbial Shroud lingering on units so they can dodge storms (now it's more of an actual shroud!), decreasing Spore HP, and allowing Calldown Supply to increase a depot HP to 500 instantly will be fun for players of all skills, and give a slight strategic decision on how to use it - it might be worth bolstering the depots at your walls now instead of just trying to hide them from danger!
Overall really excited for these changes and the willingness to buff positional Mech play and giving Mech back some of its power! The biggest things that excite me is being able to salvage and be more active with Turrets/Sensor towers, Mech regaining a strong mineral dump unit able to round out many aspects of play, and the Energy Overchage idea + stronger Batteries which will allow for more versatile and creative play! Slightly nerfing mass Queen, camping with Libs, rebuffing Disruptors, are all good too! Just hope that the balance for things will be OK before things are finalized!
I don't see the need to make such a large patch. Literally just make the change to bunker salvage, PF & Sensor tower and go from there.
Buffing blue flame hellions seems psychotic. Screwing around with Zerg fundamentals at this point also just wild. Spine crawler rush implications in ZvZ extremely annoying.
So, people are probably going to die to bio and roach pushes before we get to that point of the game anyway but this thread is sleeping a little bit on the energy overcharge I reckon. Getting to supercharge templars is not insignificant at all.
Once again the balance council have good ideas in terms of game and unit design.
But the balance is way off. Protoss got a mix of buffs and nerfs, while zerg simply got all buffs? When Zerg won 10 of the last 12 world championships and half were ZvZ finals?
Don't let anyone tell you queens being 25 min more will make a difference. Hatcheries costing 25 min less is what you would call a "silent buff", something that makes a huge difference but isn't noticeable to the average viewer.
Also spores, spines, hydras, and ultras got buffed? The reasons are sound but there's no balance to make up for it.
On October 22 2024 21:52 Nebuchad wrote: So, people are probably going to die to bio and roach pushes before we get to that point of the game anyway but this thread is sleeping a little bit on the energy overcharge I reckon. Getting to supercharge templars is not insignificant at all.
Yep, it even helps give HTs a backup against EMP! You can save your energy overcharge after the EMPs hit and still have 1 storm to zone out!
I do think Batteries could also heal slightly faster, I'm not sure the Energy Overcharge will be good enough in the early game, but they could decrease its cooldown or make each Nexus have its own cooldown (not sure if it's global cd right now or not). But i suppose it might be fine because you can also invest into building up lots more energy before a push even comes! For example Oracles can use all its energy to harass, come back asap and start putting stasis wards down.
Being able to invest energy ahead of time to build up energy is such a fun idea, rather than simply saving 50 energy always to Battery Overcharge when a push comes. Now there's much more tradeoff between using it for chrono or recall or energy overcharge
On October 22 2024 21:57 Fango wrote: Once again the balance council have good ideas in terms of game and unit design.
But the balance is way off. Protoss got a mix of buffs and nerfs, while zerg simply got all buffs? When Zerg won 10 of the last 12 world championships and half were ZvZ finals?
Don't let anyone tell you queens being 25 min more will make a difference. Hatcheries costing 25 min less is what you would call a "silent buff", something that makes a huge difference but isn't noticeable to the average viewer.
Also spores, spines, hydras, and ultras got buffed? The reasons are sound but there's no balance to make up for it.
Yea, whenever somebody brings the zerg winning everything ... ah, never mind, another year not watching SC2
On October 22 2024 03:10 Waxangel wrote: I think some of the changes are a bit incoherent in terms of overall policy. So you heavily nerf mine drops and disruptors in previous patches because insta-lose moments feel bad, but then you buff disruptor range and blue flame hellions in the next patch? I don't really get it.
Let's pump the brakes, and think about maybe going back rather than forwards. Return to Heart of the Swarm (Post SH nerf obviously) or better yet, Wings of Liberty. Nerf infestors and ravens and you're golden, you've got a great template to work off! The further they go by trying to put in all these gimmicks and abilities (hydra speed boost lol) the consistently worse they seem to make the game feel to play. Every unit needs an ability or a gimmick, apparently.
On October 22 2024 23:48 Wintex wrote: Just increase queen supply cost to like 4 or 6 the min change aint anythin. free us
Sure, good idea. I mean ofc you would need to remove any Air from the game pre-10 minutes, but sure :3
Can we acknowledge that this isn't a "balance patch"? Because the game is balanced. In fact, if we go by numbers alone, the only race that doesn't seem to be balanced is Terran, which was tremendously over-represented at the World Cup. Zerg even was the lowest represented race in the Knockout Stage. It is baffling to me that people still buy into the whole "a balanced game means that every race should win 33% of the tournaments". No, that's not balance, especially with such a small pro-scene. Because that would mean the best players are all equally skilled and none of them is exceptional. Even in a game that is perfectly balanced it is entirely possible that one race or even one player wins everything. If you want to balance against that, you don't want a balanced game, you want a "balanced scene".
Anyway, back to the patch: I really don't think it is meant to "Balance" the game. Because, again, it is balanced. The idea of the patch is to "mix it up" and give new inputs. And yes, that opens up the chance that the game becomes more unbalanced than before. But that's what the PTR is for, right?
On October 22 2024 21:57 Fango wrote: Once again the balance council have good ideas in terms of game and unit design.
But the balance is way off. Protoss got a mix of buffs and nerfs, while zerg simply got all buffs? When Zerg won 10 of the last 12 world championships and half were ZvZ finals?
Don't let anyone tell you queens being 25 min more will make a difference. Hatcheries costing 25 min less is what you would call a "silent buff", something that makes a huge difference but isn't noticeable to the average viewer.
Also spores, spines, hydras, and ultras got buffed? The reasons are sound but there's no balance to make up for it.
Kinda crazy to look at the Immortal change on the struggling race and compare it to the Queen/Building changes.
On October 22 2024 23:48 Wintex wrote: Just increase queen supply cost to like 4 or 6 the min change aint anythin. free us
It is baffling to me that people still buy into the whole "a balanced game means that every race should win 33% of the tournaments". No, that's not balance, especially with such a small pro-scene. Because that would mean the best players are all equally skilled and none of them is exceptional. Even in a game that is perfectly balanced it is entirely possible that one race or even one player wins everything. If you want to balance against that, you don't want a balanced game, you want a "balanced scene".
The reason why people still buy into it is because it's factually true, this is what would happen if the game was balanced.
What truly happens when someone always wins is not that we celebrate their skill, it's that we lose interest. Which is what happened by the way, there's a reason why nobody really cares about this as much as we did in 2017.
On October 22 2024 21:57 Fango wrote: Once again the balance council have good ideas in terms of game and unit design.
But the balance is way off. Protoss got a mix of buffs and nerfs, while zerg simply got all buffs? When Zerg won 10 of the last 12 world championships and half were ZvZ finals?
Don't let anyone tell you queens being 25 min more will make a difference. Hatcheries costing 25 min less is what you would call a "silent buff", something that makes a huge difference but isn't noticeable to the average viewer.
Also spores, spines, hydras, and ultras got buffed? The reasons are sound but there's no balance to make up for it.
Kinda crazy to look at the Immortal change on the struggling race and compare it to the Queen/Building changes.
Immortal change, specifically targets the PvZ matchup, and if u think the lagging race in PvZ is P then there is a huge problem in u being able to read numbers and ur game understanding.
On October 22 2024 23:48 Wintex wrote: Just increase queen supply cost to like 4 or 6 the min change aint anythin. free us
It is baffling to me that people still buy into the whole "a balanced game means that every race should win 33% of the tournaments". No, that's not balance, especially with such a small pro-scene. Because that would mean the best players are all equally skilled and none of them is exceptional. Even in a game that is perfectly balanced it is entirely possible that one race or even one player wins everything. If you want to balance against that, you don't want a balanced game, you want a "balanced scene".
The reason why people still buy into it is because it's factually true, this is what would happen if the game was balanced.
What truly happens when someone always wins is not that we celebrate their skill, it's that we lose interest. Which is what happened by the way, there's a reason why nobody really cares about this as much as we did in 2017.
As if that is the main reason for losing interest...TheViper dominated AoE 2 for years without competition and the game grew nevertheless. Because a player being the best doesn't make it uninteresting. And if you want to nerf the "best player" right now, you would need to nerf terran, not zerg.
From Nexus Photon Ovecharge to Pylon Photon Overcharge to Battery Overcharge to Energy Overcharge. Peak creativity in solving fundamental design problems.
On October 22 2024 23:48 Wintex wrote: Just increase queen supply cost to like 4 or 6 the min change aint anythin. free us
It is baffling to me that people still buy into the whole "a balanced game means that every race should win 33% of the tournaments". No, that's not balance, especially with such a small pro-scene. Because that would mean the best players are all equally skilled and none of them is exceptional. Even in a game that is perfectly balanced it is entirely possible that one race or even one player wins everything. If you want to balance against that, you don't want a balanced game, you want a "balanced scene".
The reason why people still buy into it is because it's factually true, this is what would happen if the game was balanced.
What truly happens when someone always wins is not that we celebrate their skill, it's that we lose interest. Which is what happened by the way, there's a reason why nobody really cares about this as much as we did in 2017.
As if that is the main reason for losing interest...TheViper dominated AoE 2 for years without competition and the game grew nevertheless. Because a player being the best doesn't make it uninteresting. And if you want to nerf the "best player" right now, you would need to nerf terran, not zerg.
I know, yes. The consensus is that the game is fairly balanced but the map pool is very terran favored, which is why Clem wins (a whole lot-) more than he's supposed to. I never said that we should nerf zerg, maybe it read like that to you because you only perceive players to be exceptional when they do good with a specific race.
On October 22 2024 19:51 Mizenhauer wrote: Changing the price of the hatchery after 14 years ranks among some of the most heinous offenses I've ever seen. And, not because it will alter all Z builds, but because that number (300 minerals) has some sanctity after nearly 15 years.
i'm a bw player, and i dont play sc2. i only clicked on this thread because i saw it in the sidebar, because i was curious what they would even be balance patching on a game as old as sc2.
i saw this hatchery mineral change and i honestly was very confused and felt similarly weird about it. i'm only reading these comments because i was wondering if anyone else felt as weird about it as i did, and it seems like you did at least.
the hatchery costed 300 minerals on the release of starcraft vanilla. while it was briefly increased to 350 minerals in vanilla starcraft 1.02, upon the release of brood war and the 1.04 patch in 1998 it was again reduced back down to 300 minerals. since then, in both games, it has remained 300 minerals for not 15 years, but 26 years.
is this really the variable to be tweaking for the sake of a balance patch?
i know maybe i'm just old, but part of the reason i play bw and not some other games is because the game itself doesn't keep changing the rules out from under me, and as a sort of casual-competitive player i can slowly improve and learn at my own pace and i won't take a break for a couple months and come back and have everything i know be just wrong. i don't know how sc2 players feel about that kind of attitude, but i would feel so shitty if i literally had to relearn the costs of my basic units periodically
On October 22 2024 12:20 Blitzball04 wrote: It is just me or does this patch looks like another nerf to toss ?
In what world does removing battery overcharge help Protoss survive any early - mid aggression? It’s already struggling with it
The salvaging turrets is one of the dumbest ideas. Really no need to explain why.
Zerg changes, not too sure about it yet. Have to see it in action first
It is a nerf to Protoss. Removing Battery Overcharge without any kind of compensation (the proposed energy recharge is a joke) is a pretty substantial nerf.
The other changes hardly matter compared to that one.
Disruptors can't one shot Roaches or Marauders anymore. Meaning they are pretty useless in PvZ. Oh but hey Tempests cost 1 less supply and Motherships are a tiny bit better in combat but cost 400/400/8 again.
None of it helps Protoss. And the removal of Battery Overcharge means they'll die to a lot more all ins, especially Roach Ravager all ins they would have held before.
And this is without taking into consideration the goodies that Zerg got like the buffs to Hydras and Broodlords and the QoL buff for the Ultralisk. Oh but Queens cost 25 minerals more now! big deal.
Thankfully none of the Terran buffs seem like they will do anything in TvP.
Thanks for confirming
Protoss got another shitshow nerf patch. But hey we got the colossal armor buff, what a joke.
I think the turret buff will play a very important role in tvp going forward since terran can just auto spam turret early on. Oracle / comitted DT builds will go extinct really quickly
How about give us back our 200 mineral prism! We need our immortal all in build back
On October 23 2024 02:07 fLyiNgDroNe wrote: From Nexus Photon Ovecharge to Pylon Photon Overcharge to Battery Overcharge to Energy Overcharge. Peak creativity in solving fundamental design problems.
I propose the upcoming iteration 'Nexus Chargeover', which spawns a Zealot that rushes to the rallypoint of the building or up to a maximum range of 10.
Definitely feel like the spore change is a not so subtle big buff, there is almost never any time (besides like split map or cloaked cheese) that you are hitting a spore. However medivacs/oracles/warp prisms are always taking stray hits and as people have pointed out really makes a big change to oracle harass.
Also curious to see how the cheaper hatch affects hatch first and other eco openings.
What do you guys think of how OP protoss scouting could be now? Remember when protoss used to open Adept -> Sentry vs Terran? Now if you do that you can overcharge your sentry immediately and Hallucinated scout and then you'll have another Scout up at the old timing as well. You will never have to be caught off guard again. Then in mid game you can warp in Templar as soon as Templar Archives finishes, overcharge a Templar, then once ur research is finished you can overcharge again and have 2 extra storms. Now, this is a lot of Nexus energy to do all this. 1 less Chrono boost early, and 2 less Chrono boosts later on, but if you consider you would typically be banking or having to use 1-2 overcharges by the time your Templar were ready and finished before to survive through timings it's not *terrible* but I do think the Overcharge Energy cost should be reduced slightly. With the 60 second cooldown it already guarantees you can't just spam it.
On October 23 2024 03:41 CicadaSC wrote: What do you guys think of how OP protoss scouting could be now? Remember when protoss used to open Adept -> Sentry vs Terran? Now if you do that you can overcharge your sentry immediately and Hallucinated scout and then you'll have another Scout up at the old timing as well. You will never have to be caught off guard again. Then in mid game you can warp in Templar as soon as Templar Archives finishes, overcharge a Templar, then once ur research is finished you can overcharge again and have 2 extra storms. Now, this is a lot of Nexus energy to do all this. 1 less Chrono boost early, and 2 less Chrono boosts later on, but if you consider you would typically be banking or having to use 1-2 overcharges by the time your Templar were ready and finished before to survive through timings it's not *terrible* but I do think the Overcharge Energy cost should be reduced slightly. With the 60 second cooldown it already guarantees you can't just spam it.
I think that sounds quite promising (not sarcasm) but I also think that the attacks that will be boosted by the lack of overcharge might come too soon for it to matter.
On October 23 2024 03:41 CicadaSC wrote: What do you guys think of how OP protoss scouting could be now? Remember when protoss used to open Adept -> Sentry vs Terran? Now if you do that you can overcharge your sentry immediately and Hallucinated scout and then you'll have another Scout up at the old timing as well. You will never have to be caught off guard again. Then in mid game you can warp in Templar as soon as Templar Archives finishes, overcharge a Templar, then once ur research is finished you can overcharge again and have 2 extra storms. Now, this is a lot of Nexus energy to do all this. 1 less Chrono boost early, and 2 less Chrono boosts later on, but if you consider you would typically be banking or having to use 1-2 overcharges by the time your Templar were ready and finished before to survive through timings it's not *terrible* but I do think the Overcharge Energy cost should be reduced slightly. With the 60 second cooldown it already guarantees you can't just spam it.
I think you might just die anyway, at least in TvP. Toss struggle to get temps out in time to stop a few particularly fiendish pushes as it is, it’s why they’re (mostly) rushing out a Collosus and relying on overcharge
And overcharge is way, way more important (at times) in PvT because you need that burst heal to compensate for T’s huge burst damage. Versus Zerg multiple regular batteries can often do a good enough job
PvZ, I think is much more promising for a variety of reasons. Some of their committed pushes swing from relatively trivial for a top pro to stop or they see it, to very difficult indeed if you don’t. Extra halluc, nice.
I think what also makes this change nice is Oracles with extra energy. This gives them extra offensive potential, they can keep tabs on things scouting wise and potentially do more damage too.
And in a defensive capacity Oracles are very good damage output against pre-hydra Zerg timings in a way they just aren’t against the race that has marines.
Here’s my worry, taking away overcharge at the same time entirely (versus perhaps a nerf).
Protoss may end up being dumpstered so hard that they just revert the overcharge change, without giving the community time to see the potential of the energy boost ability. And I think there is potential and interesting dynamics here. I’ve always liked the idea of juggling chrono priorities versus banking energy for other uses and the risk-reward there
Also given it was announced on my birthday, I hereby declare this WombaT’s patch, so it better not be shit
On October 22 2024 21:52 Nebuchad wrote: So, people are probably going to die to bio and roach pushes before we get to that point of the game anyway but this thread is sleeping a little bit on the energy overcharge I reckon. Getting to supercharge templars is not insignificant at all.
It has a 1 minute global cooldown apparently, and it costs 50 nexus energy to replenish 100 unit energy.
It's 2025 almost. Just leave the game alone lol. Salvaging turrets and sensors? Stim pack for hydras? Wtf. Unecessary bloat. Way to kill a game further. This is why SC2 will never be popular in Korea unlike BW.
On October 23 2024 03:41 CicadaSC wrote: What do you guys think of how OP protoss scouting could be now? Remember when protoss used to open Adept -> Sentry vs Terran? Now if you do that you can overcharge your sentry immediately and Hallucinated scout and then you'll have another Scout up at the old timing as well. You will never have to be caught off guard again. Then in mid game you can warp in Templar as soon as Templar Archives finishes, overcharge a Templar, then once ur research is finished you can overcharge again and have 2 extra storms. Now, this is a lot of Nexus energy to do all this. 1 less Chrono boost early, and 2 less Chrono boosts later on, but if you consider you would typically be banking or having to use 1-2 overcharges by the time your Templar were ready and finished before to survive through timings it's not *terrible* but I do think the Overcharge Energy cost should be reduced slightly. With the 60 second cooldown it already guarantees you can't just spam it.
My gut feeling is that the initial sentry scout wouldn't be worth cutting the chrono. It's probably not early enough to completely cover a probe scout and if your are facing an agressive set up you probably need your chrono and if it's a macro set up you are just behind.
I could imagine some clever stuff with the oracle or pheonix/oracle builds.
On October 23 2024 04:35 outscar wrote: It's 2025 almost. Just leave the game alone lol. Salvaging turrets and sensors? Stim pack for hydras? Wtf. Unecessary bloat. Way to kill a game further. This is why SC2 will never be popular in Korea unlike BW.
It's almost 2025, maybe it's time to drop the BW comparaison. We've been playing this game for 15 years with balance patches, obviously the player base like to see changes from time to time.
On October 22 2024 21:52 Nebuchad wrote: So, people are probably going to die to bio and roach pushes before we get to that point of the game anyway but this thread is sleeping a little bit on the energy overcharge I reckon. Getting to supercharge templars is not insignificant at all.
It has a 1 minute global cooldown apparently, and it costs 50 nexus energy to replenish 100 unit energy.
I don't think it's good.
You're probably right, yeah. But they say they'll monitor it, so if you're right and they actually do a good job of monitoring they can tweak the numbers a little.
On October 23 2024 04:35 outscar wrote: It's 2025 almost. Just leave the game alone lol. Salvaging turrets and sensors? Stim pack for hydras? Wtf. Unecessary bloat. Way to kill a game further. This is why SC2 will never be popular in Korea unlike BW.
They change things up in League all the time no? How’s that doing in Korea?
Until the ability to make 3rd party ladders and have control of maps is taken away from Blizzard, you don’t really have any other tools to keep things fresh or adjust things in any other fashion
Maybe they should go that route, but I don’t think there’s a one-size-fits-all approach
Metas can be stable, pretty static and good, sometimes they can settle into something a bit shit in perpetuity.
Modern WC3 has some more options and diversity at the top level these days than when I followed it way back in the day. Not that there weren’t missteps there either
This really really annoyed me when I first read it. I think the last patch showed pretty clearly that, hey, when you buff Protoss, they do better! And then to follow that up with a patch that severely nerfs one of the few strong Protoss units (Immortal) and directly and severely nerfs Protoss' already biggest problem area (early/mid game defense) is just giving me a persecution complex. And even the "buffs" being so cautious and severely overcompensated as to be either irrelevant (Colossus, Shield Battery) or effectively nerfs (Disruptor); and then the contrast between that and the way in which the mild nerfs to the other races are so hesitant and compensated the other way as to effectively be buffs (see: Queen, Liberator)...I really didn't used to be a Protoss Conspiracy Theorist, but it's impossible not to see the difference here.
That being said, upon more sober consideration, there are some things I really like here. Overall, I really like the idea behind the new Nexus ability. I think design-wise it's a really intelligent way to create an ability that is simple but very diverse in its applications, opening up potentially many different builds and strats, and which properly tuned would be very strong--but only in more skilled hands, and directly rewarding skill and intelligence. I think if you combined that with some real buffs to Protoss' early game, whether through straight-up buffing the shield battery and/or buffing som early game units (which they're so afraid to do but would be absolutely fine) it would be a really big thing for Protoss, at one stroke potentially making Protoss less dominant at lower levels, stronger at the highest level, and with an overall higher skill cap and build diversity.
The Supply Calldown thing is also really cool and well-designed, with interesting choices involved. Nerfing the Planetary Fortress is straight-up a good idea. Buffing macrobial shroud is probably good. I'm fine with Blue Flame hellions being strong again. The idea of nerfing mass Queen is good. The idea of removing Liberator range is good.
That being said, none of the tuning here makes any sense. Mass Queen needs to actually be nerfed; Protoss early game defense needs to be actually buffed. Disruptor consistency needs to be actually increased, and a damage nerf is fine but I'm doubting whether a Disruptor that dies harder to Marauders is it. Nerfing sensor towers and giving counterplay to salvage is good, but adding it to missile turrets and sensor towers is a crazy buff to turtle terran. Massively buffing liberator attack area size is just crazy. Liberator range could honestly just be removed straight up period with no compensation and it would be totally fine and probably better for everyone. I have no idea who thinks that Liberators without range wouldn't be strong, or thinks that TvP when T gets to mass range liberator is fun or balanced. There is no conceivable situation in which buffing Spore Crawlers is a good idea or won't be horribly abused to camp. Et cetera.
Hopefully the balance team can properly tune this patch, and particularly the new Protoss ability, and not either let it go through as is or just give up and revert the change. There's a lot of potential here.
On October 23 2024 05:42 Captain Peabody wrote: This really really annoyed me when I first read it. I think the last patch showed pretty clearly that, hey, when you buff Protoss, they do better! And then to follow that up with a patch that severely nerfs one of the few strong Protoss units (Immortal) and directly and severely nerfs Protoss' already biggest problem area (early/mid game defense). And even the "buffs" being so cautious and severely overcompensated as to be either irrelevant (Colossus, Shield Battery) or effectively nerfs (Disruptor). And then the contrast between that and the way in which the mild nerfs to the other races are so hesitant and compensated the other way as to effectively be buffs (see: Queen, Liberator). I really didn't used to be a Protoss Conspiracy Theorist, but it's impossible not to see the difference here.
That being said, upon more sober consideration, there are some things I really like here. Overall, I really like the idea behind the new Nexus ability. I think design-wise it's a really intelligent way to create an ability that is simple but very diverse in its applications, opening up potentially many different builds and strats, and which properly tuned would be very strong--but only in more skilled hands, and directly rewarding skill and intelligence. I think if you combined that with some real buffs to Protoss' early game, whether through straight-up buffing the shield battery and/or buffing som early game units (which they're so afraid to do but would be absolutely fine) it would be a really big thing for Protoss, at one stroke potentially making Protoss less dominant at lower levels, stronger at the highest level, and with an overall higher skill cap and build diversity.
The Supply Calldown thing is also really cool and well-designed, with interesting choices involved. Nerfing the Planetary Fortress is straight-up a good idea. Buffing macrobial shroud is probably good. I'm fine with Blue Flame hellions being strong again. The idea of nerfing mass Queen is good. The idea of removing Liberator range is good.
That being said, none of the tuning here makes any sense. Mass Queen needs to actually be nerfed; Protoss early game defense needs to be actually buffed; massively buffing liberator size is crazy. Liberator range should honestly just be removed straight up period with no compensation and it would be totally fine and probably just better. I have no idea who thinks that Liberators without range wouldn't be strong, or thinks that TvP when T get to mass range liberator is fun or balanced. There is no conceivable situation in which buffing Spore Crawlers is a good idea or won't be horribly abused to camp. Et cetera.
Agreed 100%
I feel reading in from the outside, you really get the impression that the council has good ideas, but lacks a project manager
So you end up with a bunch of pretty interesting, valid tweaks but all pooled together don’t seem to pull in a coherent, cohesive direction
On October 23 2024 03:41 CicadaSC wrote: What do you guys think of how OP protoss scouting could be now? Remember when protoss used to open Adept -> Sentry vs Terran? Now if you do that you can overcharge your sentry immediately and Hallucinated scout and then you'll have another Scout up at the old timing as well. You will never have to be caught off guard again. Then in mid game you can warp in Templar as soon as Templar Archives finishes, overcharge a Templar, then once ur research is finished you can overcharge again and have 2 extra storms. Now, this is a lot of Nexus energy to do all this. 1 less Chrono boost early, and 2 less Chrono boosts later on, but if you consider you would typically be banking or having to use 1-2 overcharges by the time your Templar were ready and finished before to survive through timings it's not *terrible* but I do think the Overcharge Energy cost should be reduced slightly. With the 60 second cooldown it already guarantees you can't just spam it.
I think you might just die anyway, at least in TvP. Toss struggle to get temps out in time to stop a few particularly fiendish pushes as it is, it’s why they’re (mostly) rushing out a Collosus and relying on overcharge
And overcharge is way, way more important (at times) in PvT because you need that burst heal to compensate for T’s huge burst damage. Versus Zerg multiple regular batteries can often do a good enough job
PvZ, I think is much more promising for a variety of reasons. Some of their committed pushes swing from relatively trivial for a top pro to stop or they see it, to very difficult indeed if you don’t. Extra halluc, nice.
I think what also makes this change nice is Oracles with extra energy. This gives them extra offensive potential, they can keep tabs on things scouting wise and potentially do more damage too.
And in a defensive capacity Oracles are very good damage output against pre-hydra Zerg timings in a way they just aren’t against the race that has marines.
Here’s my worry, taking away overcharge at the same time entirely (versus perhaps a nerf).
Protoss may end up being dumpstered so hard that they just revert the overcharge change, without giving the community time to see the potential of the energy boost ability. And I think there is potential and interesting dynamics here. I’ve always liked the idea of juggling chrono priorities versus banking energy for other uses and the risk-reward there
Also given it was announced on my birthday, I hereby declare this WombaT’s patch, so it better not be shit
Next year if toss is still getting destroyed left and right
Am I allow to say “oh remember that Wombat patch? That was total shit”
Or “the wombat patch was a nail in the coffin for all toss”
On October 23 2024 03:41 CicadaSC wrote: What do you guys think of how OP protoss scouting could be now? Remember when protoss used to open Adept -> Sentry vs Terran? Now if you do that you can overcharge your sentry immediately and Hallucinated scout and then you'll have another Scout up at the old timing as well. You will never have to be caught off guard again. Then in mid game you can warp in Templar as soon as Templar Archives finishes, overcharge a Templar, then once ur research is finished you can overcharge again and have 2 extra storms. Now, this is a lot of Nexus energy to do all this. 1 less Chrono boost early, and 2 less Chrono boosts later on, but if you consider you would typically be banking or having to use 1-2 overcharges by the time your Templar were ready and finished before to survive through timings it's not *terrible* but I do think the Overcharge Energy cost should be reduced slightly. With the 60 second cooldown it already guarantees you can't just spam it.
I think you might just die anyway, at least in TvP. Toss struggle to get temps out in time to stop a few particularly fiendish pushes as it is, it’s why they’re (mostly) rushing out a Collosus and relying on overcharge
And overcharge is way, way more important (at times) in PvT because you need that burst heal to compensate for T’s huge burst damage. Versus Zerg multiple regular batteries can often do a good enough job
PvZ, I think is much more promising for a variety of reasons. Some of their committed pushes swing from relatively trivial for a top pro to stop or they see it, to very difficult indeed if you don’t. Extra halluc, nice.
I think what also makes this change nice is Oracles with extra energy. This gives them extra offensive potential, they can keep tabs on things scouting wise and potentially do more damage too.
And in a defensive capacity Oracles are very good damage output against pre-hydra Zerg timings in a way they just aren’t against the race that has marines.
Here’s my worry, taking away overcharge at the same time entirely (versus perhaps a nerf).
Protoss may end up being dumpstered so hard that they just revert the overcharge change, without giving the community time to see the potential of the energy boost ability. And I think there is potential and interesting dynamics here. I’ve always liked the idea of juggling chrono priorities versus banking energy for other uses and the risk-reward there
Also given it was announced on my birthday, I hereby declare this WombaT’s patch, so it better not be shit
Next year if toss is still getting destroyed left and right
Am I allow to say “oh remember that Wombat patch? That was total shit”
Or “the wombat patch was a nail in the coffin for all toss”
Absolutely, hell WombaT’s LawTM was even worse for Toss, alas it did not catch on in wider SC2 parlance. Perhaps if I was more of a Redditor rather than a TL loyalist
I think it did stand true for multiple years though, I’ll maybe actually check sometime. In a major premier tournament, no Toss can win if they have they to play more than one Zerg in a playoff bracket. Intuitively I think a combo of balance back in the day, Zerg getting stronger the higher the x in a BoX, Toss being the inverse and having to show your best builds to take out a top Zerg with the next guy taking notes all contributed
Trap beat the law/curse by taking out Serral and Reynor at Dreamhack Last Chance, which was nice as he’s one of my favourite players so if anyone was to break it
On October 23 2024 05:39 Qotsa4 wrote: Terran extra supply with free repair and hp, what the hell. Sure we will see more of it :p
Yea it's a buff but it's still a really situational ability you'd rather not use since it costs a MULE to use it.
I doubt it will increase its use much at the pro level. You might see it a lot more on the ladder now though.
We have a guy in our scene who has about 19 variants of baneling bust and no other builds, and this is very much known. It still works a remarkable amount of the time.
I wonder if this can potentially add that little extra protection, if so he’s a bit fucked
On October 23 2024 05:39 Qotsa4 wrote: Terran extra supply with free repair and hp, what the hell. Sure we will see more of it :p
Yea it's a buff but it's still a really situational ability you'd rather not use since it costs a MULE to use it.
I doubt it will increase its use much at the pro level. You might see it a lot more on the ladder now though.
I mean I'm sure we'll see it used when there's early cheese or a baneling bust that a Terran is losing to...because why not? It's basically a panic button. The real question is if it will ever be used successfully in a scenario where the Terran doesn't lose (plausibly because of it), or if it just becomes the infallible sign that the Terran has already lost the game.
On October 23 2024 08:43 Nakajin wrote: I want to share with the world a realisation. I'll be able to depot block a nexus, then, when it's on 5 hp, summon a super-depot in their face.
The WombaT's patch will bring me endless joy.
Happy you’re using the approved nomenclature (Blizz forgot to correctly name it)
That is a fiendish proposition but can one do that? We shall see!
Here are my version of changes for StarCraft 2 patch 5.0.14:
Terran:
Liberator
- Defender Mode damage reduced from 75 (+5) to 41 (+3)
- Cost and supply reduced from 150/125/3 to 125/100/2
- Build time reduced from 43 to 29
- Health reduced from 180 to 150
- Smart Servos upgrade is now also affecting Liberators. With Smart Servos, Liberator siege time is decreased from 2.89 to 2.12 (26.6% reduction) and unsiege time is decreased from 1.46 to 1.13 (23% reduction).
Protoss:
Nexus
- Shield Battery Overcharge ability removed.
- New ability added: Energy Overcharge. Energy Overcharge costs 50 Energy and recharges 100 Energy of the targeted allied unit or structure with a maximum range of 9.
Disruptor
- Purification Nova damage reduced from 145 (+55 shield) to 85 (+60 shield)
- Purification Nova Radius increased from 1.375 to 1.5
- Cost and supply reduced from 150/150/4 to 125/100/3
- Build time reduced from 36 to 31
Immortal
- Mineral Cost decreased from 275 to 250
High Templar
- Feedback now deals 0.75 damage per point of energy drained, up from 0.5 damage per point of energy drained.
Tempest
- Supply Cost decreased from 5 to 4.
- Damage Point decreased from 0.119 to 0.0857 (28% reduction).
- Attack Range vs Air decreased from 14 to 13.
Zerg:
Ravager
- Cost and supply reduced from 25(100)/75(100)/1(3) to 25(100)/25(50)/0(2)
- Build time reduced from 12(31) to 8(27)
- Corrosive Bile range reduced from 9 to 7
Infestor
- Microbial Shroud is now sticking to units, providing them with its effect for 3.6 seconds while off the Shroud.
Ultralisk
- While moving, Ultralisk is now able to push allied units.
Brood Lord
- Broodling HP is increased from 20 to 30.
- Broodling Weapon Cooldown decreased from 0.57 to 0.46.
- Fixed the bug which prevented Brood Lord from dealing full damage while shooting from the maximum distance.
General
- Orbital Command Scanner Sweep visual now uses team color.
- Sensor Tower Radar minimap visual now uses team color.
-
Command Center, Nexus and Hatchery now auto rally to mineral fields.
--> Not changed, same as 5.0.13 and before as it is the players mental timer task to make sure base is micro-managed.
- Workers waiting for Refinery, Extractor or Assimilator to finish do not count as idle.
- SCV random delay between moving while building adjusted from 3.57- 7.14 to 4.64-6.07 (same average).
- Added icon to command card for Infestor, Hellion, Hellbat, Liberator showing unupgraded passive upgrades.
- Siege Tank and Immortal tracking change from previous patch reverted due to causing unintentional retargeting.
- Fixed an issue where blinding cloud caused certain melee units attacks to be more easily canceled.
- Fixed an issue where blinding cloud could cause Planetaries to not attack units at melee range in certain angles.
- Fixed an issue with issuing orders on certain types of rocks in fog.
- Fixed an issue with Changeling zealot move animation speed.
- Tweaked Hydralisk move animation speed to match it’s actual movement speed (art only).
In my opinion some of these are as long waited as since the Legacy of the Void release.
Everything else stays the same from 5.0.13.
I just wanted to make my suggestion for StarCraft 2 Patch 5.0.14.
On October 22 2024 03:10 Waxangel wrote: I think some of the changes are a bit incoherent in terms of overall policy. So you heavily nerf mine drops and disruptors in previous patches because insta-lose moments feel bad, but then you buff disruptor range and blue flame hellions in the next patch? I don't really get it.
It feels more like lipstick on a pig to me. Insta-loss/comeback units are imho just poor design that probably should never have been included in the first place, but if the overall game is balanced around them, nerfing might be the only option. Similarly, turtling is always going to be an inherently dominant strategy in a game like this that prioritizes base-building and macro mechanics over micro, but if these changes can at least reduce the % of games that turn into 20+ minute positional slogs that seems like a good thing. Not saying there's a ton of coherence, but also not sure coherence is even a virtue when you're tinkering around the edges of the design.
On October 23 2024 08:43 Nakajin wrote: I want to share with the world a realisation. I'll be able to depot block a nexus, then, when it's on 5 hp, summon a super-depot in their face.
The WombaT's patch will bring me endless joy.
Oh my god, and i wonder if you can summon a 2nd or 3rd depot on it?? Or can you only use it on basic depots?
On October 23 2024 08:43 Nakajin wrote: I want to share with the world a realisation. I'll be able to depot block a nexus, then, when it's on 5 hp, summon a super-depot in their face.
The WombaT's patch will bring me endless joy.
Oh my god, and i wonder if you can summon a 2nd or 3rd depot on it?? Or can you only use it on basic depots?
You can only use Supply Drop on basic Supply Depots that are already built.
Cant really see the points in toss nerfs. Energy overcharge is shit compared to battery overcharge. TvP is already living in the edge all early game. Without battery overcharge it will make the matchup even more terran favored. Also why terran and zerg are mainly receiving only buffs? Nerfing immortals and buffing protoss air doesnt sound good game design
Man I like how y'all were BEGGING for any changes to 'keep the game fresh', hoping that patches would bring in new players (never in the history of video games did patches do anything to bring in new players, except for fixing an unplayable game).
Now you are crying. A healthy scene would try to PREVENT anything that may change the fundament of the scene, the game itself.
It is obvious that those in the balance council don't care about the game, but to make it easier to suck everything from this scene, first by deleting a race so they do not have to train much anymore.
On October 23 2024 15:41 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote: Man I like how y'all were BEGGING for any changes to 'keep the game fresh', hoping that patches would bring in new players (never in the history of video games did patches do anything to bring in new players, except for fixing an unplayable game).
Now you are crying. A healthy scene would try to PREVENT anything that may change the fundament of the scene, the game itself.
It is obvious that those in the balance council don't care about the game, but to make it easier to suck everything from this scene, first by deleting a race so they do not have to train much anymore.
If you eat something every day and you want to eat something different, and then one day instead of what you eat every day they serve you a big old plate of shit, the fact that you wanted to eat something different is not evidence that you ought to be happy now.
There's now evidence of most pros not being happy with the changes surfacing, including possible bias in the way the changes are validated... The complaints are sound.
On October 23 2024 15:41 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote: Man I like how y'all were BEGGING for any changes to 'keep the game fresh', hoping that patches would bring in new players (never in the history of video games did patches do anything to bring in new players, except for fixing an unplayable game).
Now you are crying. A healthy scene would try to PREVENT anything that may change the fundament of the scene, the game itself.
It is obvious that those in the balance council don't care about the game, but to make it easier to suck everything from this scene, first by deleting a race so they do not have to train much anymore.
If you eat something every day and you want to eat something different, and then one day instead of what you eat every day they serve you a big old plate of shit, the fact that you wanted to eat something different is not evidence that you ought to be happy now.
There's now evidence of most pros not being happy with the changes surfacing, including possible bias in the way the changes are validated... The complaints are sound.
BW players have been eating the same food for 23 years and viewership is 16 times that of SC2, let alone donations being about 10 million dollars a year.
Meanwhile the "balance council" of Flash, Jaedong and Bisu were actively begging Blizzard not to change anything except for cosmetic stuff during SCR.
That is the difference between a healthy game and a dead game: A healthy game doesn't want anything changed as it would otherwise harm a great status quo, while a dead game actively wants change in the hope of somehow bringing in new life in a dead status quo.
On October 23 2024 15:41 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote: Man I like how y'all were BEGGING for any changes to 'keep the game fresh', hoping that patches would bring in new players (never in the history of video games did patches do anything to bring in new players, except for fixing an unplayable game).
Now you are crying. A healthy scene would try to PREVENT anything that may change the fundament of the scene, the game itself.
It is obvious that those in the balance council don't care about the game, but to make it easier to suck everything from this scene, first by deleting a race so they do not have to train much anymore.
If you eat something every day and you want to eat something different, and then one day instead of what you eat every day they serve you a big old plate of shit, the fact that you wanted to eat something different is not evidence that you ought to be happy now.
There's now evidence of most pros not being happy with the changes surfacing, including possible bias in the way the changes are validated... The complaints are sound.
BW players have been eating the same food for 23 years and viewership is 16 times that of SC2, let alone donations being about 10 million dollars a year.
Meanwhile the "balance council" of Flash, Jaedong and Bisu were actively begging Blizzard not to change anything except for cosmetic stuff during SCR.
That is the difference between a healthy game and a dead game: A healthy game doesn't want anything changed as it would otherwise harm a great status quo, while a dead game actively wants change in the hope of somehow bringing in new life in a dead status quo.
Oh sorry I thought you wanted to say something interesting I didn't realize this was about the size of BW's dick
On October 23 2024 16:15 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:
On October 23 2024 16:07 Nebuchad wrote:
On October 23 2024 15:41 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote: Man I like how y'all were BEGGING for any changes to 'keep the game fresh', hoping that patches would bring in new players (never in the history of video games did patches do anything to bring in new players, except for fixing an unplayable game).
Now you are crying. A healthy scene would try to PREVENT anything that may change the fundament of the scene, the game itself.
It is obvious that those in the balance council don't care about the game, but to make it easier to suck everything from this scene, first by deleting a race so they do not have to train much anymore.
If you eat something every day and you want to eat something different, and then one day instead of what you eat every day they serve you a big old plate of shit, the fact that you wanted to eat something different is not evidence that you ought to be happy now.
There's now evidence of most pros not being happy with the changes surfacing, including possible bias in the way the changes are validated... The complaints are sound.
BW players have been eating the same food for 23 years and viewership is 16 times that of SC2, let alone donations being about 10 million dollars a year.
Meanwhile the "balance council" of Flash, Jaedong and Bisu were actively begging Blizzard not to change anything except for cosmetic stuff during SCR.
That is the difference between a healthy game and a dead game: A healthy game doesn't want anything changed as it would otherwise harm a great status quo, while a dead game actively wants change in the hope of somehow bringing in new life in a dead status quo.
Oh sorry I thought you wanted to say something interesting I didn't realize this was about the size of BW's dick
I am sorry, I'd rather let Saudis fuck my ass for 'rescuing the scene'
On October 23 2024 15:41 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote: Man I like how y'all were BEGGING for any changes to 'keep the game fresh', hoping that patches would bring in new players (never in the history of video games did patches do anything to bring in new players, except for fixing an unplayable game).
Now you are crying. A healthy scene would try to PREVENT anything that may change the fundament of the scene, the game itself.
It is obvious that those in the balance council don't care about the game, but to make it easier to suck everything from this scene, first by deleting a race so they do not have to train much anymore.
Do you ever get shit of posting this kind of nonsense?
On October 23 2024 15:41 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote: Man I like how y'all were BEGGING for any changes to 'keep the game fresh', hoping that patches would bring in new players (never in the history of video games did patches do anything to bring in new players, except for fixing an unplayable game).
Now you are crying. A healthy scene would try to PREVENT anything that may change the fundament of the scene, the game itself.
It is obvious that those in the balance council don't care about the game, but to make it easier to suck everything from this scene, first by deleting a race so they do not have to train much anymore.
Do you ever get shit of posting this kind of nonsense?
Do your arguments ever go past dismissing anything while saying nothing at all?
On October 22 2024 18:45 WombaT wrote: I’d be in favour of just removing the energy requirement from graviton beam altogether. They’re one of Protoss’ high-skill APM sinks as it is and require direct control to do damage, do they need to have that energy requirement?
So many units have already lost energy, on that alone I'm against removing it from Phoenix. If anything, I'd like to add energy back to some units so Feedback is more useful again. Maybe a change to Feedback where instead of single target damage it deals its damage as a small AOE so it's threatening again seeing as they already nerfed it so that it doesn't kill anything anymore
Overall though this patch has good goals as stated (increasing skill expression with Protoss abilities, opening up alternative playstyles, reducing camping) but poorly executed. The stated goals only really seem to get fulfilled in Terran, partially fulfilled in Zerg, and almost actively the opposite outcome in Protoss.
Protoss is basically nerfed and their already weak early game is made that much weaker given their loss of defensive strength without any real compensation. The shield battery buff doesn't really help anything, the Disruptor change massively reduces it's power, the Colossus change doesn't really help that much given it remains quite weak at killing things and the slight "buff" against EMP doesn't change that. Immortals are effectively neutral massed but may open up a new timing with the reduced cost. Mothership, I like the multi-attack, but it's still too vulnerable and Time Warp is too weak and should get a sticky affect like Microbial Shroud. Energy Recharge seems interesting but overall weak as currently implemented, either reduce the cooldown or make it an AOE ability with less energy restored. So Protoss camping is nerfed, their tools are in the process of being reshaped but in a place that seems unfinished and weaker than pre-patch, and doesn't really seem like more playstyles are made viable.
Zerg also has some minor change to their early game which will likely result in delayed timings. If the spore and spine crawlers are meant to be used instead the way Lowko fears that's actually a big change in terms of using up larva, but I think that's not really going to be a thing, mostly the delay opening up some early game vulnerability. The Hydra change seems stupid and useful only in very limited circumstances. Love the Infestor and Ultra changes. Don't care for the Broodlord change, but that's mostly because I don't feel it's in line with the original design intent. Overall though Zerg got some potential change to early game and some strengthening to late game power. So, Zerg camping is stronger with stronger and faster building defensive structures and changes to Hatch/Queens that won't matter by the late game, their late game is a bit more open and potentially they have more options.
Terran remains untouched in their early game and their late game was buffed with the salvage change, the speedier and wider hitting Libs, and Ghost remaining untouched. The sensor tower nerf/re-work is interesting and I'll have to see how it plays out, the Planetary nerf also feels like it needs to be monitored for its impact. The blue flame change is ridiculous. The Thor change is interesting but we'll see if it actually amounts to anything considering how often Thors are actually made. So Terran turtle style is considerably better thanks to the salvage change, they get even more harassment power with Blue Flame, and potentially a boost to mech with the various changes as well.
On October 23 2024 05:42 Captain Peabody wrote: This really really annoyed me when I first read it. I think the last patch showed pretty clearly that, hey, when you buff Protoss, they do better! And then to follow that up with a patch that severely nerfs one of the few strong Protoss units (Immortal) and directly and severely nerfs Protoss' already biggest problem area (early/mid game defense). And even the "buffs" being so cautious and severely overcompensated as to be either irrelevant (Colossus, Shield Battery) or effectively nerfs (Disruptor). And then the contrast between that and the way in which the mild nerfs to the other races are so hesitant and compensated the other way as to effectively be buffs (see: Queen, Liberator). I really didn't used to be a Protoss Conspiracy Theorist, but it's impossible not to see the difference here.
That being said, upon more sober consideration, there are some things I really like here. Overall, I really like the idea behind the new Nexus ability. I think design-wise it's a really intelligent way to create an ability that is simple but very diverse in its applications, opening up potentially many different builds and strats, and which properly tuned would be very strong--but only in more skilled hands, and directly rewarding skill and intelligence. I think if you combined that with some real buffs to Protoss' early game, whether through straight-up buffing the shield battery and/or buffing som early game units (which they're so afraid to do but would be absolutely fine) it would be a really big thing for Protoss, at one stroke potentially making Protoss less dominant at lower levels, stronger at the highest level, and with an overall higher skill cap and build diversity.
The Supply Calldown thing is also really cool and well-designed, with interesting choices involved. Nerfing the Planetary Fortress is straight-up a good idea. Buffing macrobial shroud is probably good. I'm fine with Blue Flame hellions being strong again. The idea of nerfing mass Queen is good. The idea of removing Liberator range is good.
That being said, none of the tuning here makes any sense. Mass Queen needs to actually be nerfed; Protoss early game defense needs to be actually buffed; massively buffing liberator size is crazy. Liberator range should honestly just be removed straight up period with no compensation and it would be totally fine and probably just better. I have no idea who thinks that Liberators without range wouldn't be strong, or thinks that TvP when T get to mass range liberator is fun or balanced. There is no conceivable situation in which buffing Spore Crawlers is a good idea or won't be horribly abused to camp. Et cetera.
Agreed 100%
I feel reading in from the outside, you really get the impression that the council has good ideas, but lacks a project manager
So you end up with a bunch of pretty interesting, valid tweaks but all pooled together don’t seem to pull in a coherent, cohesive direction
In general, I agree with both of these guys. There's an issue with how the goals are good, but the changes feel like somewhat arbitrary gyrations. Making queens a less straight forward scalable unit so there's a modicum of punishment for spending money on more queens is a good thing. It opens up avenues of player interaction that kind of fell apart in the early game change to 12 workers leading to a stale early game build choice. Zerg gameplay will always optimize over time and making the Zerg player react should be a worthwhile value proposition if you do well.
For Protoss, it's really difficult to see how to strengthen the early game in a smooth way. You don't want to create a change that stabilizes it to such a degree where opponent decisions don't interact with you or where gateway man is just too juiced. The idea to increase skill expression for all levels is a good thing, but it's honestly just best to make decently big changes so the identity of the Protoss game kinda shifts a bit. It's a shame these band-aid solutions have always plagued the race.
Terran is a bit over-kitted and i think that the salvage stuff is weird. Libs also are a terrible unit and I would have just removed it.
On October 23 2024 03:41 CicadaSC wrote: What do you guys think of how OP protoss scouting could be now? Remember when protoss used to open Adept -> Sentry vs Terran? Now if you do that you can overcharge your sentry immediately and Hallucinated scout and then you'll have another Scout up at the old timing as well. You will never have to be caught off guard again. Then in mid game you can warp in Templar as soon as Templar Archives finishes, overcharge a Templar, then once ur research is finished you can overcharge again and have 2 extra storms. Now, this is a lot of Nexus energy to do all this. 1 less Chrono boost early, and 2 less Chrono boosts later on, but if you consider you would typically be banking or having to use 1-2 overcharges by the time your Templar were ready and finished before to survive through timings it's not *terrible* but I do think the Overcharge Energy cost should be reduced slightly. With the 60 second cooldown it already guarantees you can't just spam it.
My gut feeling is that the initial sentry scout wouldn't be worth cutting the chrono. It's probably not early enough to completely cover a probe scout and if your are facing an agressive set up you probably need your chrono and if it's a macro set up you are just behind.
I could imagine some clever stuff with the oracle or pheonix/oracle builds.
On October 23 2024 04:35 outscar wrote: It's 2025 almost. Just leave the game alone lol. Salvaging turrets and sensors? Stim pack for hydras? Wtf. Unecessary bloat. Way to kill a game further. This is why SC2 will never be popular in Korea unlike BW.
It's almost 2025, maybe it's time to drop the BW comparaison. We've been playing this game for 15 years with balance patches, obviously the player base like to see changes from time to time.
Uuhm you can't really assume that. Just because something has always been a certain way it doesn't mean that's what people want.
"All 45 US presidents have been male, clearly a male president is what people want"
On October 23 2024 03:41 CicadaSC wrote: What do you guys think of how OP protoss scouting could be now? Remember when protoss used to open Adept -> Sentry vs Terran? Now if you do that you can overcharge your sentry immediately and Hallucinated scout and then you'll have another Scout up at the old timing as well. You will never have to be caught off guard again. Then in mid game you can warp in Templar as soon as Templar Archives finishes, overcharge a Templar, then once ur research is finished you can overcharge again and have 2 extra storms. Now, this is a lot of Nexus energy to do all this. 1 less Chrono boost early, and 2 less Chrono boosts later on, but if you consider you would typically be banking or having to use 1-2 overcharges by the time your Templar were ready and finished before to survive through timings it's not *terrible* but I do think the Overcharge Energy cost should be reduced slightly. With the 60 second cooldown it already guarantees you can't just spam it.
My gut feeling is that the initial sentry scout wouldn't be worth cutting the chrono. It's probably not early enough to completely cover a probe scout and if your are facing an agressive set up you probably need your chrono and if it's a macro set up you are just behind.
I could imagine some clever stuff with the oracle or pheonix/oracle builds.
On October 23 2024 04:35 outscar wrote: It's 2025 almost. Just leave the game alone lol. Salvaging turrets and sensors? Stim pack for hydras? Wtf. Unecessary bloat. Way to kill a game further. This is why SC2 will never be popular in Korea unlike BW.
It's almost 2025, maybe it's time to drop the BW comparaison. We've been playing this game for 15 years with balance patches, obviously the player base like to see changes from time to time.
Uuhm you can't really assume that. Just because something has always been a certain way it doesn't mean that's what people want.
"All 45 US presidents have been male, clearly a male president is what people want"
Well we're still playing and/or watching the game aren't we? If the concept of patching and changing the game is an issue for someone I feel they would have abandonned SC2 a long time ago, it's never been the philosophy of the game.
I certainly have not seen a lot of people in response to this patch saying we should just stop patching.
On October 23 2024 03:41 CicadaSC wrote: What do you guys think of how OP protoss scouting could be now? Remember when protoss used to open Adept -> Sentry vs Terran? Now if you do that you can overcharge your sentry immediately and Hallucinated scout and then you'll have another Scout up at the old timing as well. You will never have to be caught off guard again. Then in mid game you can warp in Templar as soon as Templar Archives finishes, overcharge a Templar, then once ur research is finished you can overcharge again and have 2 extra storms. Now, this is a lot of Nexus energy to do all this. 1 less Chrono boost early, and 2 less Chrono boosts later on, but if you consider you would typically be banking or having to use 1-2 overcharges by the time your Templar were ready and finished before to survive through timings it's not *terrible* but I do think the Overcharge Energy cost should be reduced slightly. With the 60 second cooldown it already guarantees you can't just spam it.
My gut feeling is that the initial sentry scout wouldn't be worth cutting the chrono. It's probably not early enough to completely cover a probe scout and if your are facing an agressive set up you probably need your chrono and if it's a macro set up you are just behind.
I could imagine some clever stuff with the oracle or pheonix/oracle builds.
On October 23 2024 04:35 outscar wrote: It's 2025 almost. Just leave the game alone lol. Salvaging turrets and sensors? Stim pack for hydras? Wtf. Unecessary bloat. Way to kill a game further. This is why SC2 will never be popular in Korea unlike BW.
It's almost 2025, maybe it's time to drop the BW comparaison. We've been playing this game for 15 years with balance patches, obviously the player base like to see changes from time to time.
Uuhm you can't really assume that. Just because something has always been a certain way it doesn't mean that's what people want.
"All 45 US presidents have been male, clearly a male president is what people want"
Well we're still playing and/or watching the game aren't we? If the concept of patching and changing the game is an issue for someone I feel they would have abandonned SC2 a long time ago, it's never been the philosophy of the game.
I certainly have not seen a lot of people in response to this patch saying we should just stop patching.
Well, If someone quit the game due to it we wouldn't see him posting here. Player/viewer numbers are certainly going down. Also you can dislike one thing about the game and still like the package enough to still follow it. I have been against patching since like 2018 and I'm still here
On October 23 2024 03:41 CicadaSC wrote: What do you guys think of how OP protoss scouting could be now? Remember when protoss used to open Adept -> Sentry vs Terran? Now if you do that you can overcharge your sentry immediately and Hallucinated scout and then you'll have another Scout up at the old timing as well. You will never have to be caught off guard again. Then in mid game you can warp in Templar as soon as Templar Archives finishes, overcharge a Templar, then once ur research is finished you can overcharge again and have 2 extra storms. Now, this is a lot of Nexus energy to do all this. 1 less Chrono boost early, and 2 less Chrono boosts later on, but if you consider you would typically be banking or having to use 1-2 overcharges by the time your Templar were ready and finished before to survive through timings it's not *terrible* but I do think the Overcharge Energy cost should be reduced slightly. With the 60 second cooldown it already guarantees you can't just spam it.
My gut feeling is that the initial sentry scout wouldn't be worth cutting the chrono. It's probably not early enough to completely cover a probe scout and if your are facing an agressive set up you probably need your chrono and if it's a macro set up you are just behind.
I could imagine some clever stuff with the oracle or pheonix/oracle builds.
On October 23 2024 04:35 outscar wrote: It's 2025 almost. Just leave the game alone lol. Salvaging turrets and sensors? Stim pack for hydras? Wtf. Unecessary bloat. Way to kill a game further. This is why SC2 will never be popular in Korea unlike BW.
It's almost 2025, maybe it's time to drop the BW comparaison. We've been playing this game for 15 years with balance patches, obviously the player base like to see changes from time to time.
Uuhm you can't really assume that. Just because something has always been a certain way it doesn't mean that's what people want.
"All 45 US presidents have been male, clearly a male president is what people want"
Well we're still playing and/or watching the game aren't we? If the concept of patching and changing the game is an issue for someone I feel they would have abandonned SC2 a long time ago, it's never been the philosophy of the game.
I certainly have not seen a lot of people in response to this patch saying we should just stop patching.
You must have missed my post. I don't play it anymore either but I still tune in to watch. Though I must say, the game has gotten really stale to watch.
Just remembering that the last PTRs did have many changes throughout, and a pretty long testing time - I hope that they will give Protoss an actual solid buff. They said they will be closely monitoring if Batteries and Energy Charge compensate for Battery Overcharge, it probably will not so they could give a small buff to Battery healing rate.
I really don't think the Blue Flame upgrade will ruin anything, mech players have felt Hellions were a bit undertuned as a mineral dump unit compared to Marines and Zealots for example. Making them able to trade more fairly vs an equal cost of Marines and Zealots will help round out Mech's early-game to be less flimsy and not need to turtle so hard, and will promote more interactions and engagements.
Hellions also are able to 2 shot workers anyways once they get some attack upgrades - the Blue Flame upgrade now being able to 2 shot workers only allows it to do so earlier in the game, which also helps improve Mech openings and the potential ability for players opening Blue Flame to decide whether to transition into Bio or Mech.
We may get to see occasional TvT Mech games vs Bio/tank, this leads to a more contrasting and dynamic mirror MU, and many great memorable TvTs have involved 1 player going Mech vs a different comp. It's really sad that in LotV especially with the Raven becoming more of a bio spellcaster and matrix being able to disable tanks so easily, that Mech has become almost pointless in TvT.
I'm not advocating to make passive turtle gameplay strong or common. I'm advocating for interesting and positional Mech play to become possible and viable, and to increase the variety of unit comps and MUs. It's OK for Mech to still be the weak, more niche comp compared to Bio or Bio-mech styles. However, it shouldn't be so weak to the point where it's unviable and chosen in professional play less than 5% of the time (especially in TvP, which is seen less than 1% of the time). Isn't it reasonable to allow it to be played even just 5-10% of the time?? I really don't think this is unreasonable.
And before anyone brings up that Protoss shouldn't be able to go mass Robo - that simply isn't an equivalent situation. Even Bio doesn't go pure Bio units. Support units of other tech paths should be pretty required to supplement the core of your army for any composition of any race. Pretty much all of Zerg's units have some usage in a unit comp in all 3 MUs. And Protoss is able to open with any of their 3 tech choices in some degree in all 3 MUs, and use that tech path's units to support their army (or in the case of Stargate comps, make their main army revolve around Tempests or Carriers or whatnot.)
And yes - of course I also advocate for Protoss to be buffed and balanced properly. More playstyles and unit compositions should become viable or seen in some degree, even if just 5-10% of the time, as long as they are not degenerate playstyles like HotS SHs or WoL BL/Infestor. Positional playstyles like Mech where you setup entrenched defensive positions and put pressure on the opponent to engage, or setup offensive fortified positions to launch attacks from are staple and classic styles of gameplay in traditional RTS games, and is nothing problematic or degenerate like HotS SHs, WoL BL/Infestor, or mass Ravens. I understand some games design and balance in a way to attract an audience that prefers a specific gameplay style, that's valid if they want that. (For example, Melee prefers to keep the game as is with a small viable cast of fighters who play more up close - but Ultimate has a much huger viable cast of characters with way more playstyles - many of which other players may not prefer to play against of course, but ultimately leads to a much more played and alive game and larger scene.) I think allowing people who want to play alternative styles occasionally to some degree should be a reasonable ask, and a healthy middleground as it allows more people to find fun and play the game that we don't want to die. Many players similar to me have left the game over the years after seeing that Mech get continually neglected, especially after the various goals Blizzard promised. That is the cost of restricting the amount of viable playstyles and unit comps.
Sorry I went on a rant but I think we as a community should strive to hold ourselves to a higher standard than the Balance Council, and have a higher degree of sophistication when it comes to the feedback we give and what we ask the Balance Council to do. We shouldn't be biased and argue to nerf playstyles and comps that other people enjoy just because we ourselves don't want to play/see them. We should see the other side always, and argue for a vibrant diversity in gameplay and for a healthy balance of races, MUs, and unit comps. I understand SC2 is late in its life, and we shouldn't be too ambitious - but when it's offseason and we have a PTR, it doesn't hurt to just try things out!
On October 23 2024 03:41 CicadaSC wrote: What do you guys think of how OP protoss scouting could be now? Remember when protoss used to open Adept -> Sentry vs Terran? Now if you do that you can overcharge your sentry immediately and Hallucinated scout and then you'll have another Scout up at the old timing as well. You will never have to be caught off guard again. Then in mid game you can warp in Templar as soon as Templar Archives finishes, overcharge a Templar, then once ur research is finished you can overcharge again and have 2 extra storms. Now, this is a lot of Nexus energy to do all this. 1 less Chrono boost early, and 2 less Chrono boosts later on, but if you consider you would typically be banking or having to use 1-2 overcharges by the time your Templar were ready and finished before to survive through timings it's not *terrible* but I do think the Overcharge Energy cost should be reduced slightly. With the 60 second cooldown it already guarantees you can't just spam it.
My gut feeling is that the initial sentry scout wouldn't be worth cutting the chrono. It's probably not early enough to completely cover a probe scout and if your are facing an agressive set up you probably need your chrono and if it's a macro set up you are just behind.
I could imagine some clever stuff with the oracle or pheonix/oracle builds.
On October 23 2024 04:35 outscar wrote: It's 2025 almost. Just leave the game alone lol. Salvaging turrets and sensors? Stim pack for hydras? Wtf. Unecessary bloat. Way to kill a game further. This is why SC2 will never be popular in Korea unlike BW.
It's almost 2025, maybe it's time to drop the BW comparaison. We've been playing this game for 15 years with balance patches, obviously the player base like to see changes from time to time.
Uuhm you can't really assume that. Just because something has always been a certain way it doesn't mean that's what people want.
"All 45 US presidents have been male, clearly a male president is what people want"
Well we're still playing and/or watching the game aren't we? If the concept of patching and changing the game is an issue for someone I feel they would have abandonned SC2 a long time ago, it's never been the philosophy of the game.
I certainly have not seen a lot of people in response to this patch saying we should just stop patching.
Well, If someone quit the game due to it we wouldn't see him posting here. Player/viewer numbers are certainly going down. Also you can dislike one thing about the game and still like the package enough to still follow it. I have been against patching since like 2018 and I'm still here
Sure, but if they are gone it's not like those people will be lure back to the game by the prospect of no more patches being added to a version they have never seen, so it's not of much importance.
There are probably others like yourself who wish we stuck to the current version of the game forever, but it is fairly clear that the vast majority of responses to this patch (and discussions around sc2 in general) aren't advocating for this option.
On October 23 2024 03:41 CicadaSC wrote: What do you guys think of how OP protoss scouting could be now? Remember when protoss used to open Adept -> Sentry vs Terran? Now if you do that you can overcharge your sentry immediately and Hallucinated scout and then you'll have another Scout up at the old timing as well. You will never have to be caught off guard again. Then in mid game you can warp in Templar as soon as Templar Archives finishes, overcharge a Templar, then once ur research is finished you can overcharge again and have 2 extra storms. Now, this is a lot of Nexus energy to do all this. 1 less Chrono boost early, and 2 less Chrono boosts later on, but if you consider you would typically be banking or having to use 1-2 overcharges by the time your Templar were ready and finished before to survive through timings it's not *terrible* but I do think the Overcharge Energy cost should be reduced slightly. With the 60 second cooldown it already guarantees you can't just spam it.
My gut feeling is that the initial sentry scout wouldn't be worth cutting the chrono. It's probably not early enough to completely cover a probe scout and if your are facing an agressive set up you probably need your chrono and if it's a macro set up you are just behind.
I could imagine some clever stuff with the oracle or pheonix/oracle builds.
On October 23 2024 04:35 outscar wrote: It's 2025 almost. Just leave the game alone lol. Salvaging turrets and sensors? Stim pack for hydras? Wtf. Unecessary bloat. Way to kill a game further. This is why SC2 will never be popular in Korea unlike BW.
It's almost 2025, maybe it's time to drop the BW comparaison. We've been playing this game for 15 years with balance patches, obviously the player base like to see changes from time to time.
Uuhm you can't really assume that. Just because something has always been a certain way it doesn't mean that's what people want.
"All 45 US presidents have been male, clearly a male president is what people want"
Well we're still playing and/or watching the game aren't we? If the concept of patching and changing the game is an issue for someone I feel they would have abandonned SC2 a long time ago, it's never been the philosophy of the game.
I certainly have not seen a lot of people in response to this patch saying we should just stop patching.
Well, If someone quit the game due to it we wouldn't see him posting here. Player/viewer numbers are certainly going down. Also you can dislike one thing about the game and still like the package enough to still follow it. I have been against patching since like 2018 and I'm still here
Sure, but if they are gone it's not like those people will be lure back to the game by the prospect of no more patches being added to a version they have never seen, so it's not of much importance.
There are probably others like yourself who wish we stuck to the current version of the game forever, but it is fairly clear that the vast majority of responses to this patch (and discussions around sc2 in general) aren't advocating for this option.
No, but if we stop patching now we might still prevent some players from quitting who will quit if we continue patching.
Tbh I don't think the number of people who are absolutely against doing any patches is very high, however the number of people who'd prefer no patches over the patches we currently get from the balance council might be quite sizable. Some Protoss players will probably quit who would've continued if there were no patches
Another disappointing patch proposal by the Shadow Council.
Battery Overcharge is a boring but necessary ability. Subbing it out for Energy Overcharge will make for more interesting games, especially at the higher level, but at the expense of lower-level Protoss players dying to strong early-mid game timing attacks against Terran and Zerg, a problem which Battery Overcharge was added to address in the first place.
I'm not sure the Colossus change is even a buff considering they typically have their range upgrade by the time ghosts are out EMPing everything. Shields regenerate but hull damage is forever. Why not just give an extra +1 range (like during that time of the bug) and increase their shields and HP to give them more survivability (especially against Vikings). It would also be cool to give them some ability that temporarily increases their damage and/or AOE attack temporarily (maybe temporarily immobilizing them). The colossus should be buffed and made more fun.
The Disrupter is a poorly designed unit to begin with. I don't know how this will play out in lower-level games but it seems like a nerf for top-level Protoss players.
I like the Mothership attack buff (mostly because it looks cool), but the unit should get a better buff. Its main problem isn't needing its attack buffed it's that the unit is too vulnerable to attacks and spells.
In theory, I like adding salvage to Missel Turrets and Sensor Towers because it fits with the "feel" of Terran being scrappy and resourceful, but it's one of a few changes in this patch that contradicts one of the patches stated goals of discouraging turtle playstyles.
The Liberator has been a shitty and possibly OP unit for a long time, and I'm not sure changing the range upgrade to be a larger-area-of-attack-when-sieged ability addresses the issue. It seems like it will make Liberators more vulnerable but it might not matter. I don't know if this is a buff, nerf, or a wash.
I like a slight Queen nerf but it seems like with the decreased cost of Hatcheries and the buff to Spines and Spores, Zerg s will be very happy here and the Queen change won't really matter.
I like giving the Hydralisk an ability to make it more interesting and better with good micro with the Dash upgrade. But please change the ability name to something remotely-lore relevant.
In totality, it's disappointing. The Ghost wasn't nerfed. And when I look at the race changes as a whole, I'm not even sure Protoss got buffed, while Terran and Zergs did, which is concerning.
Like how the fuck is P supposed to survive early-midgame timings without battery overcharge? I've lost count how often MaxPax barely held on with it, now he gets a 60 sec gcd ability instead to restore 100 energy. Meanwhile T, which dies much much much less often to early timings because they usually have map control gets an 2 second delay full repair on their wall with added health? How about a 10 sec gdc on scan so T can't just lategame hack the entire map?
Then they talk about making other paths viable and give P a wash on the colossus, nerf disruptors against marauders and roaches, nerf Immos since marauders and roaches weren't good enough apparently and increase the cost of MS again so it won't see use again? Tempests get a slight buff, which still won't make them competitive against anything, the problem with the unit is that it is absurdly overpriced for it's actual fighting prowess, not that you can't micro it.
The liberator looses 0.75 range for +56% AoE and faster siege/unsiege time. Was that really the unit that needed a huge buff? The spore change is a huge nerf for PvZ air openings, which is like the majority. Guess P opens blink stalker again now. Then T gets buffs on sensor towers, buffs on missile turrets and another tool to kill 15 workers in 5 seconds.
Like I can't even see how half of these would be good in a vacuum without the huge implications for balance they have. And I really don't get how all of the oppressive units are basically untouched (or buffed in the case of libs).
The only good changes in this patch are the ones to tempests/thors/ultra and tbh I think only the ultra change is going to matter at all and very little at that. I get the queen nerf, but tbh I think the queen is essential and Z needs something else to offset that that isn't a static D buff. Static D is just too slow to deal with early game pushes or air rushes.
On October 24 2024 09:46 Archeon wrote: This patch is... something.
Like how the fuck is P supposed to survive early-midgame timings without battery overcharge? I've lost count how often MaxPax barely held on with it, now he gets a 60 sec gcd ability instead to restore 100 energy. Meanwhile T, which dies much much much less often to early timings because they usually have map control gets an 2 second delay full repair on their wall with added health? How about a 10 sec gdc on scan so T can't just lategame hack the entire map?
Then they talk about making other paths viable and give P a wash on the colossus, nerf disruptors against marauders and roaches, nerf Immos since marauders and roaches weren't good enough apparently and increase the cost of MS again so it won't see use again? Tempests get a slight buff, which still won't make them competitive against anything, the problem with the unit is that it is absurdly overpriced for it's actual fighting prowess, not that you can't micro it.
The liberator looses 0.75 range for +56% AoE and faster siege/unsiege time. Was that really the unit that needed a huge buff? The spore change is a huge nerf for PvZ air openings, which is like the majority. Guess P opens blink stalker again now. Then T gets buffs on sensor towers, buffs on missile turrets and another tool to kill 15 workers in 5 seconds.
Like I can't even see how half of these would be good in a vacuum without the huge implications for balance they have. And I really don't get how all of the oppressive units are basically untouched (or buffed in the case of libs).
The only good changes in this patch are the ones to tempests/thors/ultra and tbh I think only the ultra change is going to matter at all and very little at that. I get the queen nerf, but tbh I think the queen is essential and Z needs something else to offset that that isn't a static D buff. Static D is just too slow to deal with early game pushes or air rushes.
Obviously the balance council and ESL wants to punish Protoss for MaxPax keep missing offline tournament, and they wont get buff until he show up live.
We really need Blizzard or MS to put their foot down and revert to the last balance patch that wasn't dictated by the balance council. The whole thing is a failed experiment.
The game doesn't need more patches to stay alive. Just consistent map rotation.
On October 24 2024 15:44 MJG wrote: We really need Blizzard or MS to put their foot down and revert to the last balance patch that wasn't dictated by the balance council. The whole thing is a failed experiment.
The game doesn't need more patches to stay alive. Just consistent map rotation.
This wouldn't be a bad idea especially if things go more south than this. PvT seemed fine back then (i mean most MUs did winrate wise once they pulled back on the skytoss/void buffs slightly), then suddenly they not only nerfed Battery Overcharge from 100% to 50% increased healing, but also coupled it with cheaper and faster building Ravens, while keeping Interference Matrix the same 11 sec disable duration, effectively buffing early Raven pushes against Protoss and disabling Colossus faster and cheaper. And what did Protoss get in return for that? Something like stasis ward giving more vision, sentries moving slightly faster, some shit like that. It was obviously a bad deal and a huge nerf in PvT, this is what led to PvT winrate falling to ~40% for over half a year.
Then they pulled back a little by making Matrix a 50/50 upgrade where you'd want to commit to building 2 ravens to let the upgrade finish instead of 1 only partially reverts the buffs, this way you had to committ slightly to a 2nd raven to be optimal, instead of doing 1 raven and swapping to medivacs immediately. But a 2 Raven push is still cheaper and hits sooner. Only thing is that a 1 Raven push waiting for Matrix upgrade to finish is slightly slower than before.
But you look at PvT winrate and it was still like 40-45% for the rest of the year. They patched the game in the middle of this almost 1 year period, but failed to address the terrible 40% winrate, letting things continue for almost another half year until WMs got nerfed. So we got almost a whole year of TvP being one of the most imbalanced MUs at the pro level in the history of SC2. Rarely has david kim's team ever let pro winrate balance ever go beyond 45:55, and if it did it was only briefly, not nearly a full year. This is a huge failure and embarassment of the Balance Council and the Protoss bias is clearer than ever. Remember that while 40% might not seem to low; in a Bo3, the statistical chance of winning 2 games out of 3 ends up falls to something much lower like 35%.
Oh yeah and remember the whole busted Cyclone thing giving TvP even more openings and harass abilities (1-22 cyclone drop micro in a medivac killing probes?)...
On October 24 2024 15:44 MJG wrote: We really need Blizzard or MS to put their foot down and revert to the last balance patch that wasn't dictated by the balance council. The whole thing is a failed experiment.
The game doesn't need more patches to stay alive. Just consistent map rotation.
More actually interesting maps would be cool, too.
I do agree with some of the sentiment. If sc2 is going to get half baked patches id rather it be left in some "legacy" state so when you come back to the game it isn't drastically different.
Especially when some of these changes end up breaking units like all the cyclone bugs.
Although in some respects all the chatter about the patch and balance council does make me want to play to see if the changes are as bad as they seem. So that's marketing I guess lol
I don't understand, is this some kind of conspiracy or why is the obvious OP of ghosts being ignored? Has a pew pew lover gotten to power or is there some other reason?
To be clear, PiG isn't advocating for buffing Protoss. He's advocating for the reversal of a few (not even all) of the nerfs the Balance Council has done to Protoss.
Buffing Protoss and reverting some nerfs are two different things.
And to be clear also, he's saying that he wants this done not even because he believes it will improve the results at the top level. More so that it will improve morale in the scene for casual fans who don't follow the game close enough and just believe that balance is bad for Protoss so they will have something to celebrate.
To be clear, PiG isn't advocating for buffing Protoss. He's advocating for the reversal of a few (not even all) of the nerfs the Balance Council has done to Protoss.
Buffing Protoss and reverting some nerfs are two different things.
And to be clear also, he's saying that he wants this done not even because he believes it will improve the results at the top level. More so that it will improve morale in the scene for casual fans who don't follow the game close enough and just believe that balance is bad for Protoss so they will have something to celebrate.
Well I mean even my "let's buff Protoss" stance is relative to the state of Protoss since these changes; and no, his point is much broader and more general about why there's been bias against Protoss and why people seem afraid to just straight-up buff core units as they do for Terran and Zerg. In that it would apply to more straight-up buffs, and he mentions that possibility. And likewise, with reverting past changes, he's not just saying that buffs would be a morale booster, he also very clearly states that these changes messed up PvT balance and build order diversity and should be reverted primarily for that reason. But yes, part of his point has to do with the negative effects on the scene of casual's perception of Protoss not being competitive.
Anyway, I'm increasingly thinking that the best thing would be to just add the Energy Overcharge ability to the Nexus without removing Battery Overcharge. The presence of another ability to compete for Nexus energy would in itself be a minor nerf.
On October 25 2024 22:14 BlackEyed wrote: I don't understand, is this some kind of conspiracy or why is the obvious OP of ghosts being ignored? Has a pew pew lover gotten to power or is there some other reason?
If we're beeing fair, I assume the arguments revolved around reverting back the BLord nerf and giving ultra a very slight buff, and doing the colossus + disruptor changes.
So they didn't touch the ghost, but they change the units with which the ghost interact.
JUST BUFF PROTOSS. what's the worst that can happen? Classic and herO win some tournaments? Oh no... It's not like Serral/clem have been winning everything for years.
Some questionable changes considering the goals mentionned at the beginning. Although I will say I at least appreciate the attempt to shake basic things up, like the queen cost change.
Why don't we remove the “regional lock”? Instead we make “race lock” tournaments. a premier tournament for Toss only. -> toss gets his tournament wins no matter if maxpax/ herO or Clem as off race Toss. you can train perfectly for this in Gm ladder.
On October 25 2024 23:08 Vindicare605 wrote: And to be clear also, he's saying that he wants this done not even because he believes it will improve the results at the top level. More so that it will improve morale in the scene for casual fans who don't follow the game close enough and just believe that balance is bad for Protoss so they will have something to celebrate.
He clearly said that the morale in the scene for casual fans is bad because even those people who don't really follow the game can tell that protoss is getting shat on consistently at the top level.
Edit: to be clear I'm just reporting what he's saying, I don't agree with him, I think if protoss is underpowered it's very slightly, and I would tend to side with Rotti that talks about the map pool being too terran favored, that makes a lot of sense to me. I also think that Maxpax not playing tournaments has a big impact, he dismissed that.
Patches like these are why I stopped watching SC2 at all and am now watching Brood War instead. Love watching Soulkey dominate ASL right now
What is the balance team thinking?? Everyone knows Protoss is the weakest race and they just nerf them again. It's completely unbelievable, guess I'll continue to never watch SC2 again, it was fun while it lasted.
Purpose of the patch "nerf defensive play across all races" in reality ONLY protoss got nerfed WTH blizzard protoss needs a buff not nerf!!!!!!!! No protoss won major tourney in years now
On October 25 2024 23:08 Vindicare605 wrote: And to be clear also, he's saying that he wants this done not even because he believes it will improve the results at the top level. More so that it will improve morale in the scene for casual fans who don't follow the game close enough and just believe that balance is bad for Protoss so they will have something to celebrate.
He clearly said that the morale in the scene for casual fans is bad because even those people who don't really follow the game can tell that protoss is getting shat on consistently at the top level.
Edit: to be clear I'm just reporting what he's saying, I don't agree with him, I think if protoss is underpowered it's very slightly, and I would tend to side with Rotti that talks about the map pool being too terran favored, that makes a lot of sense to me. I also think that Maxpax not playing tournaments has a big impact, he dismissed that.
This is me exactly. I came back to this website after 5 years because I'm honestly fed up with this bullshit that's going in SC2. I quit entirely to start watching Brood War instead because I was honestly just tired of Protoss getting shat on left right and center with no fix in sight, just not interested in the pro scene whatsoever anymore. See a video by Artosis and Tasteless about an upcoming patch? Cool maybe it will get me interested in SC2 again if it spices up the game a little.
But instead I find even more Protoss nerfs after 2 years of them winning absolutely nothing. Nope turn that shit off back to Brood War
This patch note reads like some half baked custom map fan fiction. I actually laughed at the salvageable turret line. I immediately replayed Incontrol ranting about the bunker in my head. The sad part is that the pro players who are trying to game the system will eventually game themselves out of a job when interest plummets even more than it already has.
On October 26 2024 06:01 Figgy wrote: Patches like these are why I stopped watching SC2 at all and am now watching Brood War instead. Love watching Soulkey dominate ASL right now
What is the balance team thinking?? Everyone knows Protoss is the weakest race and they just nerf them again. It's completely unbelievable, guess I'll continue to never watch SC2 again, it was fun while it lasted.
Is it that much better seeing Protoss die to a hydra bust for what feels like the millionth time?
There’s pain to be had in both games, most notably if you are a Protoss enjoyer.
I think the overall thrust of this patch is pretty shit as regards Protoss, bafflingly so indeed.
Although I think there’s been some overreaction to the Balance Council’s tenure in its totality. PvZ’s been in a decent shape for a fair well, there have been some smart tweaks that I think have improved PvP as a matchup.
On the other hand, TvP has been crippling Toss’ ability to consistently be at the top end of tournaments/win any and this patch making this worse feels like a giant kick in the balls.
On October 25 2024 23:08 Vindicare605 wrote: And to be clear also, he's saying that he wants this done not even because he believes it will improve the results at the top level. More so that it will improve morale in the scene for casual fans who don't follow the game close enough and just believe that balance is bad for Protoss so they will have something to celebrate.
He clearly said that the morale in the scene for casual fans is bad because even those people who don't really follow the game can tell that protoss is getting shat on consistently at the top level.
Edit: to be clear I'm just reporting what he's saying, I don't agree with him, I think if protoss is underpowered it's very slightly, and I would tend to side with Rotti that talks about the map pool being too terran favored, that makes a lot of sense to me. I also think that Maxpax not playing tournaments has a big impact, he dismissed that.
This is me exactly. I came back to this website after 5 years because I'm honestly fed up with this bullshit that's going in SC2. I quit entirely to start watching Brood War instead because I was honestly just tired of Protoss getting shat on left right and center with no fix in sight, just not interested in the pro scene whatsoever anymore. See a video by Artosis and Tasteless about an upcoming patch? Cool maybe it will get me interested in SC2 again if it spices up the game a little.
But instead I find even more Protoss nerfs after 2 years of them winning absolutely nothing. Nope turn that shit off back to Brood War
I think you were absolutely right for most of that period, but after the last patch protoss has been quite okay in terms of balance, and the reason why they didn't win anything had more to do with the map pool and Maxpax not participating. There's probably also some good old bad luck involved because there's just not a ton of tournaments anyway. But yeah now with this patch it's probably not the best time to come back, you're right (again).
On October 25 2024 23:08 Vindicare605 wrote: And to be clear also, he's saying that he wants this done not even because he believes it will improve the results at the top level. More so that it will improve morale in the scene for casual fans who don't follow the game close enough and just believe that balance is bad for Protoss so they will have something to celebrate.
He clearly said that the morale in the scene for casual fans is bad because even those people who don't really follow the game can tell that protoss is getting shat on consistently at the top level.
Edit: to be clear I'm just reporting what he's saying, I don't agree with him, I think if protoss is underpowered it's very slightly, and I would tend to side with Rotti that talks about the map pool being too terran favored, that makes a lot of sense to me. I also think that Maxpax not playing tournaments has a big impact, he dismissed that.
This is me exactly. I came back to this website after 5 years because I'm honestly fed up with this bullshit that's going in SC2. I quit entirely to start watching Brood War instead because I was honestly just tired of Protoss getting shat on left right and center with no fix in sight, just not interested in the pro scene whatsoever anymore. See a video by Artosis and Tasteless about an upcoming patch? Cool maybe it will get me interested in SC2 again if it spices up the game a little.
But instead I find even more Protoss nerfs after 2 years of them winning absolutely nothing. Nope turn that shit off back to Brood War
I think you were absolutely right for most of that period, but after the last patch protoss has been quite okay in terms of balance, and the reason why they didn't win anything had more to do with the map pool and Maxpax not participating. There's probably also some good old bad luck involved because there's just not a ton of tournaments anyway. But yeah now with this patch it's probably not the best time to come back, you're right (again).
If you had PvT in something like the state it was when Trap was winning things (and ideally Trap in that shape), PvZ remaining in its current status since herO came back and shook up the matchup l, a few top players getting back to their former shape, I don’t think things would look that bad at all
JUST BUFF PROTOSS. what's the worst that can happen? Classic and herO win some tournaments? Oh no... It's not like Serral/clem have been winning everything for years.
You want to know what the problem is? This is the problem.
Protoss is not designed well. It has a lower skill ceiling than the other 2 races do and a lower skill floor. This is why they are over represented in GM and in the lower rungs of pro play and under represented at the top of pro play.
So buffing Protoss so that herO (as an example) can consistently beat Serral and Maru and Clem and Dark would have a cascading effect that would impact every tier of play from the top of the professional level all the way down to Bronze league.
This would turn into tournaments where PvP is the most played match up which would kill viewership. This would mean that Protoss which already dominates the ladder would absolutely CRUSH the ladder.
This would lead to an outcry from the community that would demand Protoss nerfs, and they would get them. And then we start this entire process over again.
This isn't hypothetical. This process has already happened many times in SC2's lifespan. It always comes from the same place. Protoss is designed poorly. PiG in his rant even talks about it a lot but mostly as a point that the balance council is unable to actually do anything to fix Protoss' core design so all that's left them for them to do is to tune their power level which if tuned far enough to produce Protoss champions will cause a backlash at the community level immediately afterward.
So that's the answer to your question, "what's the worst that can happen." You want to see worst case scenario look at what happened during the Void Ray meta when Blizzard buffed those not that long ago.
Any buff that the balance council gives to Protoss will be twice as impactful at the lower levels than it will be at the top level. Protoss needs a LOT of buffs to get it to where Serral stops dominating them, and that will mean a LOT of buffs x2 when facing Protoss on the ladder.
This is the fundamental problem when looking at Protoss balance in SC2. It's a badly designed race, it's a race that is designed to thrive in Best of 1's on the ladder, not Best of 7's in a tournament setting. All of the problems that come from being unable to find a good balance for that race comes from that foundational problem.
Until Blizzard has the guts to address those fundamental design problems, we're just going to keep repeating the same cycle over and over again.
JUST BUFF PROTOSS. what's the worst that can happen? Classic and herO win some tournaments? Oh no... It's not like Serral/clem have been winning everything for years.
You want to know what the problem is? This is the problem.
Protoss is not designed well. It has a lower skill ceiling than the other 2 races do and a lower skill floor. This is why they are over represented in GM and in the lower rungs of pro play and under represented at the top of pro play.
So buffing Protoss so that herO (as an example) can consistently beat Serral and Maru and Clem and Dark would have a cascading effect that would impact every tier of play from the top of the professional level all the way down to Bronze league.
This would turn into tournaments where PvP is the most played match up which would kill viewership. This would mean that Protoss which already dominates the ladder would absolutely CRUSH the ladder.
This would lead to an outcry from the community that would demand Protoss nerfs, and they would get them. And then we start this entire process over again.
This isn't hypothetical. This process has already happened many times in SC2's lifespan. It always comes from the same place. Protoss is designed poorly. PiG in his rant even talks about it a lot but mostly as a point that the balance council is unable to actually do anything to fix Protoss' core design so all that's left them for them to do is to tune their power level which if tuned far enough to produce Protoss champions will cause a backlash at the community level immediately afterward.
So that's the answer to your question, "what's the worst that can happen." You want to see worst case scenario look at what happened during the Void Ray meta when Blizzard buffed those not that long ago.
Any buff that the balance council gives to Protoss will be twice as impactful at the lower levels than it will be at the top level. Protoss needs a LOT of buffs to get it to where Serral stops dominating them, and that will mean a LOT of buffs x2 when facing Protoss on the ladder.
This is the fundamental problem when looking at Protoss balance in SC2. It's a badly designed race, it's a race that is designed to thrive in Best of 1's on the ladder, not Best of 7's in a tournament setting. All of the problems that come from being unable to find a good balance for that race comes from that foundational problem.
Until Blizzard has the guts to address those fundamental design problems, we're just going to keep repeating the same cycle over and over again.
That's just fundamentally not true, and a fixable problem even if it is. Ladder in 2022 was more balanced when Protoss was at it's best and herO was winning tournaments than it is now.
nerfing the nova by 0.125 will not change the fact that you 1a into it or storms instead of splitting, while it has a huge amount of impact on higher level players. Fundamentally, balance at lower levels has a very easy decision - "Git gud".
JUST BUFF PROTOSS. what's the worst that can happen? Classic and herO win some tournaments? Oh no... It's not like Serral/clem have been winning everything for years.
You want to know what the problem is? This is the problem.
Protoss is not designed well. It has a lower skill ceiling than the other 2 races do and a lower skill floor. This is why they are over represented in GM and in the lower rungs of pro play and under represented at the top of pro play.
So buffing Protoss so that herO (as an example) can consistently beat Serral and Maru and Clem and Dark would have a cascading effect that would impact every tier of play from the top of the professional level all the way down to Bronze league.
This would turn into tournaments where PvP is the most played match up which would kill viewership. This would mean that Protoss which already dominates the ladder would absolutely CRUSH the ladder.
This would lead to an outcry from the community that would demand Protoss nerfs, and they would get them. And then we start this entire process over again.
This isn't hypothetical. This process has already happened many times in SC2's lifespan. It always comes from the same place. Protoss is designed poorly. PiG in his rant even talks about it a lot but mostly as a point that the balance council is unable to actually do anything to fix Protoss' core design so all that's left them for them to do is to tune their power level which if tuned far enough to produce Protoss champions will cause a backlash at the community level immediately afterward.
So that's the answer to your question, "what's the worst that can happen." You want to see worst case scenario look at what happened during the Void Ray meta when Blizzard buffed those not that long ago.
Any buff that the balance council gives to Protoss will be twice as impactful at the lower levels than it will be at the top level. Protoss needs a LOT of buffs to get it to where Serral stops dominating them, and that will mean a LOT of buffs x2 when facing Protoss on the ladder.
This is the fundamental problem when looking at Protoss balance in SC2. It's a badly designed race, it's a race that is designed to thrive in Best of 1's on the ladder, not Best of 7's in a tournament setting. All of the problems that come from being unable to find a good balance for that race comes from that foundational problem.
Until Blizzard has the guts to address those fundamental design problems, we're just going to keep repeating the same cycle over and over again.
That's just fundamentally not true, and a fixable problem even if it is. Ladder in 2022 was more balanced when Protoss was at it's best and herO was winning tournaments than it is now.
nerfing the nova by 0.125 will not change the fact that you 1a into it or storms instead of splitting, while it has a huge amount of impact on higher level players. Fundamentally, balance at lower levels has a very easy decision - "Git gud".
How good do people have to get?
I think Vindicare’s assessment is pretty bang on overall.
JUST BUFF PROTOSS. what's the worst that can happen? Classic and herO win some tournaments? Oh no... It's not like Serral/clem have been winning everything for years.
You want to know what the problem is? This is the problem.
Protoss is not designed well. It has a lower skill ceiling than the other 2 races do and a lower skill floor. This is why they are over represented in GM and in the lower rungs of pro play and under represented at the top of pro play.
So buffing Protoss so that herO (as an example) can consistently beat Serral and Maru and Clem and Dark would have a cascading effect that would impact every tier of play from the top of the professional level all the way down to Bronze league.
This would turn into tournaments where PvP is the most played match up which would kill viewership. This would mean that Protoss which already dominates the ladder would absolutely CRUSH the ladder.
This would lead to an outcry from the community that would demand Protoss nerfs, and they would get them. And then we start this entire process over again.
This isn't hypothetical. This process has already happened many times in SC2's lifespan. It always comes from the same place. Protoss is designed poorly. PiG in his rant even talks about it a lot but mostly as a point that the balance council is unable to actually do anything to fix Protoss' core design so all that's left them for them to do is to tune their power level which if tuned far enough to produce Protoss champions will cause a backlash at the community level immediately afterward.
So that's the answer to your question, "what's the worst that can happen." You want to see worst case scenario look at what happened during the Void Ray meta when Blizzard buffed those not that long ago.
Any buff that the balance council gives to Protoss will be twice as impactful at the lower levels than it will be at the top level. Protoss needs a LOT of buffs to get it to where Serral stops dominating them, and that will mean a LOT of buffs x2 when facing Protoss on the ladder.
This is the fundamental problem when looking at Protoss balance in SC2. It's a badly designed race, it's a race that is designed to thrive in Best of 1's on the ladder, not Best of 7's in a tournament setting. All of the problems that come from being unable to find a good balance for that race comes from that foundational problem.
Until Blizzard has the guts to address those fundamental design problems, we're just going to keep repeating the same cycle over and over again.
That's just fundamentally not true, and a fixable problem even if it is. Ladder in 2022 was more balanced when Protoss was at it's best and herO was winning tournaments than it is now.
nerfing the nova by 0.125 will not change the fact that you 1a into it or storms instead of splitting, while it has a huge amount of impact on higher level players. Fundamentally, balance at lower levels has a very easy decision - "Git gud".
It isn't a fixable problem.
The only times, THE ONLY TIMES that Protoss has ever been winning at the top of pro league is when Protoss goes on crazy win streaks where they start winning everything.
Protoss' fundamental design flaws, keep it from ever producing players like Maru and Serral that are standouts of their race and are able to carry the banner for them consistently when no one else can. The only time Protoss wins is when everyone that plays Protoss is winning.
If you think that's not true, then you seriously just don't know the history of SC2.
Now what PiG said and I agree with is that the balance council has gone too far in the other direction. Protoss was already in a state 2-3 patch cycles ago where it wasn't winning at the top level and then it received multiple nerfs that put it in an even worse spot. Those can and should be walked back.
The ideal place to be would be where Brood War is. Protoss dominates the ladder and lower tier pro play, and still makes Ro4 appearances often, but doesn't win anywhere near as often as Terran or Zerg do. Protoss has similar design problems in Brood War that it has in SC2, but SC2's problems are far more pronounced and thus we get even more polarized results.
We can't fix the problem, but we can address it to make it better than it is currently. But the fundamental problem is still this. If Maru or Serral are losing to Protoss on a regular basis, that's bad for the scene because that means Protoss is dominating EVERY tournament. There is no in between where sometimes Protoss wins and sometimes Protoss loses.
The way the scene is now, wins are divided between Terran and Zerg and Protoss gets the scraps. If Protoss is buffed to the point where Serral is losing consistently to them, then it will be Protoss winning everything and Terran and Zerg getting the scraps.
That's just how it is. This is why Protoss domination periods never last long. This is why the nerfs always come. If you want to repeat this cycle again, when we've already been through it multiple times, then that's your opinion. But personally, I don't want to.
On October 25 2024 22:14 BlackEyed wrote: I don't understand, is this some kind of conspiracy or why is the obvious OP of ghosts being ignored? Has a pew pew lover gotten to power or is there some other reason?
Remember that the balance council is heavily Terran favoured and Protoss biased
There is no way the ghost will get nerfed no matter how Op they due to all the terran pros whining within the council
JUST BUFF PROTOSS. what's the worst that can happen? Classic and herO win some tournaments? Oh no... It's not like Serral/clem have been winning everything for years.
You want to know what the problem is? This is the problem.
Protoss is not designed well. It has a lower skill ceiling than the other 2 races do and a lower skill floor. This is why they are over represented in GM and in the lower rungs of pro play and under represented at the top of pro play.
So buffing Protoss so that herO (as an example) can consistently beat Serral and Maru and Clem and Dark would have a cascading effect that would impact every tier of play from the top of the professional level all the way down to Bronze league.
This would turn into tournaments where PvP is the most played match up which would kill viewership. This would mean that Protoss which already dominates the ladder would absolutely CRUSH the ladder.
This would lead to an outcry from the community that would demand Protoss nerfs, and they would get them. And then we start this entire process over again.
This isn't hypothetical. This process has already happened many times in SC2's lifespan. It always comes from the same place. Protoss is designed poorly. PiG in his rant even talks about it a lot but mostly as a point that the balance council is unable to actually do anything to fix Protoss' core design so all that's left them for them to do is to tune their power level which if tuned far enough to produce Protoss champions will cause a backlash at the community level immediately afterward.
So that's the answer to your question, "what's the worst that can happen." You want to see worst case scenario look at what happened during the Void Ray meta when Blizzard buffed those not that long ago.
Any buff that the balance council gives to Protoss will be twice as impactful at the lower levels than it will be at the top level. Protoss needs a LOT of buffs to get it to where Serral stops dominating them, and that will mean a LOT of buffs x2 when facing Protoss on the ladder.
This is the fundamental problem when looking at Protoss balance in SC2. It's a badly designed race, it's a race that is designed to thrive in Best of 1's on the ladder, not Best of 7's in a tournament setting. All of the problems that come from being unable to find a good balance for that race comes from that foundational problem.
Until Blizzard has the guts to address those fundamental design problems, we're just going to keep repeating the same cycle over and over again.
That's just fundamentally not true, and a fixable problem even if it is. Ladder in 2022 was more balanced when Protoss was at it's best and herO was winning tournaments than it is now.
nerfing the nova by 0.125 will not change the fact that you 1a into it or storms instead of splitting, while it has a huge amount of impact on higher level players. Fundamentally, balance at lower levels has a very easy decision - "Git gud".
It isn't a fixable problem.
The only times, THE ONLY TIMES that Protoss has ever been winning at the top of pro league is when Protoss goes on crazy win streaks where they start winning everything.
Protoss' fundamental design flaws, keep it from ever producing players like Maru and Serral that are standouts of their race and are able to carry the banner for them consistently when no one else can. The only time Protoss wins is when everyone that plays Protoss is winning.
If you think that's not true, then you seriously just don't know the history of SC2.
Now what PiG said and I agree with is that the balance council has gone too far in the other direction. Protoss was already in a state 2-3 patch cycles ago where it wasn't winning at the top level and then it received multiple nerfs that put it in an even worse spot. Those can and should be walked back.
The ideal place to be would be where Brood War is. Protoss dominates the ladder and lower tier pro play, and still makes Ro4 appearances often, but doesn't win anywhere near as often as Terran or Zerg do. Protoss has similar design problems in Brood War that it has in SC2, but SC2's problems are far more pronounced and thus we get even more polarized results.
We can't fix the problem, but we can address it to make it better than it is currently. But the fundamental problem is still this. If Maru or Serral are losing to Protoss on a regular basis, that's bad for the scene because that means Protoss is dominating EVERY tournament. There is no in between where sometimes Protoss wins and sometimes Protoss loses.
The way the scene is now, wins are divided between Terran and Zerg and Protoss gets the scraps. If Protoss is buffed to the point where Serral is losing consistently to them, then it will be Protoss winning everything and Terran and Zerg getting the scraps.
That's just how it is. This is why Protoss domination periods never last long. This is why the nerfs always come. If you want to repeat this cycle again, when we've already been through it multiple times, then that's your opinion. But personally, I don't want to.
Yeah can’t disagree with much of that really.
I think people sleep on quite how much heavy lifting Serral’s done in the last year or so for Zerg overall. I think most probably because there was a transition from a handful of Zergs winning a ton, to Serral continuing to win a lot for many it’s still those pesky Zergs winning. If say, Serral went on hiatus for a year, Zergs didn’t do much and returned and posted his results the perception would be rather different.
We have seen for me two periods where Protoss were competitive with a few players versus a cluster in a ‘rising tide raises all ships’ for me, the ‘Trap era’ and herO’s return from military. So I don’t think it always tracks that Protoss bounces between not being irrelevant or having a load of players doing well. But the margins are pretty razor thin
It’s really for me a case of looking at a Serral or a Clem stream and thinking, how can a Protoss compete with that with the tools they have and the way the game is designed, in a way that is fair in a competitive/skill level sense? I mean you just can’t really do it
It feels an obvious thing but I feel it rarely comes up. The early stages of a game will be different from the later stages, if you have factions that are hard to learn, hard to master with a huge potential ceiling, and ones that are initially easier, but cap out a bit lower.
It takes time for the collective hive mind to figure things out, and for talents to emerge that can fully take advantage of various discoveries and have the mentality and the mechanical ability to really maximise potential.
Be it Maru, Serral or Clem, players of that ilk. You will eventually get them in a game of SC2’s popularity.
Much respect to Clem, he's being honest and brave. It remindes me to when Rogue spoke about ZvP being straight imba. That went on for years. We already have suffered one and a half years of TvP being imba. And, with this patch, things will get worse
It’s really for me a case of looking at a Serral or a Clem stream and thinking, how can a Protoss compete with that with the tools they have and the way the game is designed, in a way that is fair in a competitive/skill level sense? I mean you just can’t really do it
Exactly.
We can't get to a place where there will be an even representation of tournament winners so long as one of the races is specifically designed to be easier to play than the other 2. If the race that is easier to play is as good as the other races is, then it will dominate pro play.
Why would anyone play the other races that are harder to play when Protoss is just as if not more successful with less effort?
This never should have been a question we should be asking in the first place, but this is where we're at because Blizzard designed Protoss badly and never did enough to address it.
So our only options are a: keep things as they are, Protoss is weak at the top level while still fun and viable for your average player all the way up to the bottom of the professional level.
b: buff Protoss so that it will start winning at the top level. This will destabilize the rest of the game and will HAVE to be rolled back eventually due to community outcry from the other two races, but it will provide a temporary malaise to the current community outcry of Protoss not winning.
c: Rework Protoss from the ground up to be more difficult to play and more rewarding to higher level players.
Each of those solutions is problematic in their own ways. a: sucks because it means Protoss players and fans get left out in the cold when watching or competing in pro play. b: sucks because it means that the game gets hyper toxic for a period when PvP starts to become the most played match in tournaments (which NO ONE likes) and community hate for Protoss explodes on reddit.
and c: even if we got past the part where Blizzard doesn't put the kind of development time in SC2 to execute this properly, would take a long time to balance properly as the race is completely redesigned and everyone has to relearn how to play it and play against it. We don't know if the end result will be much better than where we are now.
This is why we are stuck where we are. There aren't any easy solutions to any of this.
It isn't true that the only way for protoss to win is to have a period where every protoss wins. Literally the period tossboy was talking about, before the last batch of nerfs, herO and Maxpax could win things and protosses weren't winning everything everywhere. What you describe doesn't match reality, even if you write only times in caps lock.
The race that has the worst design in the game is terran. With its core units that you will build every game, terran creates so much direct potential in the hands of an amazing player that the other races are forced to tech up to fight it. In a well designed game, tech up should be either a choice that you make, forcing a response from your opponent, or a response that you are forced to make because your opponent is doing something specific that you need to counter. It shouldn't be your default requirement in order to match the power of the standard low tech army of your opponent. Even worse, when you bend to this rule and tech up to fight the standard terran army, the terran is then *only* at a disadvantage if he doesn't tech up in response. Like, it's not immediately clear that he'll lose, he might still win with the army that you teched up specifically to counter. That is a level of freedom that other races can't dream of.
Nebuchad at this point, you're the guy saying Climate Change isn't real while the rest of us are debating the hard decisions that need to be made about what to do about it.
Even PiG in his rant mentions over and over again that Protoss has underlying design problems. It is a fact of life in SC2.
We can either choose to ignore them and engage in this cyclical balancing that we've been doing for the last 14 years or we can talk about them and try and do something about them. It's really that simple.
Trying to pretend like Protoss design isn't problematic doesn't do anyone any favors.
On October 26 2024 09:42 Vindicare605 wrote: Nebuchad at this point, you're the guy saying Climate Change isn't real while the rest of us are debating the hard decisions that need to be made about what to do about it.
Even PiG in his rant mentions over and over again that Protoss has underlying design problems. It is a fact of life in SC2.
We can either choose to ignore them and engage in this cyclical balancing that we've been doing for the last 14 years or we can talk about them and try and do something about them. It's really that simple.
Trying to pretend like Protoss design isn't problematic doesn't do anyone any favors.
The difference is that when people say that climate change is real the data is correct, as opposed to you who posts incorrect data BUT IN CAPS LOCK.
I'm not really afraid that what I say might hurt the future of protoss because the future of protoss players is probably just to go play Stormgate.
On October 26 2024 09:42 Vindicare605 wrote: Nebuchad at this point, you're the guy saying Climate Change isn't real while the rest of us are debating the hard decisions that need to be made about what to do about it.
Even PiG in his rant mentions over and over again that Protoss has underlying design problems. It is a fact of life in SC2.
We can either choose to ignore them and engage in this cyclical balancing that we've been doing for the last 14 years or we can talk about them and try and do something about them. It's really that simple.
Trying to pretend like Protoss design isn't problematic doesn't do anyone any favors.
The difference is that when people say that climate change is real the data is correct, as opposed to you who posts incorrect data BUT IN CAPS LOCK.
I'm not really afraid that what I say might hurt the future of protoss because the future of protoss players is probably just to go play Stormgate.
That's really funny you say that because Stormgate has all of Protoss' design problems only much worse in the Celestials.
The Celestials were designed by the same designers that ruined SC2 Protoss and that didn't learn their lesson and were desperately trying to prove their idiotic concepts could work.
I'd invite you to go take a look at Celestials yourself and tell me you think that race can ever work in a competitive RTS. Because that's the end result that your kind of denial ends up at.
On October 26 2024 09:42 Vindicare605 wrote: Nebuchad at this point, you're the guy saying Climate Change isn't real while the rest of us are debating the hard decisions that need to be made about what to do about it.
Even PiG in his rant mentions over and over again that Protoss has underlying design problems. It is a fact of life in SC2.
We can either choose to ignore them and engage in this cyclical balancing that we've been doing for the last 14 years or we can talk about them and try and do something about them. It's really that simple.
Trying to pretend like Protoss design isn't problematic doesn't do anyone any favors.
The difference is that when people say that climate change is real the data is correct, as opposed to you who posts incorrect data BUT IN CAPS LOCK.
I'm not really afraid that what I say might hurt the future of protoss because the future of protoss players is probably just to go play Stormgate.
That's really funny you say that because Stormgate has all of Protoss' design problems only much worse in the Celestials.
The Celestials were designed by the same designers that ruined SC2 Protoss and that didn't learn their lesson and were desperately trying to prove their idiotic concepts could work.
I'd invite you to go take a look at Celestials yourself and tell me you think that race can ever work in a competitive RTS. Because that's the end result that your kind of denial ends up at.
I think we're going to be fine
If you ever want to address the fact that tossboy referenced a period of the game where protoss could win things but wasn't winning everything, contrary to your claim that this is impossible, I'll be around.
On October 26 2024 09:42 Vindicare605 wrote: Nebuchad at this point, you're the guy saying Climate Change isn't real while the rest of us are debating the hard decisions that need to be made about what to do about it.
Even PiG in his rant mentions over and over again that Protoss has underlying design problems. It is a fact of life in SC2.
We can either choose to ignore them and engage in this cyclical balancing that we've been doing for the last 14 years or we can talk about them and try and do something about them. It's really that simple.
Trying to pretend like Protoss design isn't problematic doesn't do anyone any favors.
The difference is that when people say that climate change is real the data is correct, as opposed to you who posts incorrect data BUT IN CAPS LOCK.
I'm not really afraid that what I say might hurt the future of protoss because the future of protoss players is probably just to go play Stormgate.
That's really funny you say that because Stormgate has all of Protoss' design problems only much worse in the Celestials.
The Celestials were designed by the same designers that ruined SC2 Protoss and that didn't learn their lesson and were desperately trying to prove their idiotic concepts could work.
I'd invite you to go take a look at Celestials yourself and tell me you think that race can ever work in a competitive RTS. Because that's the end result that your kind of denial ends up at.
I think we're going to be fine
If you ever want to address the fact that tossboy referenced a period of the game where protoss could win things but wasn't winning everything, contrary to your claim that this is impossible, I'll be around.
I already did. If you actually read my posts you'd know that already.
But since we have done this dance more than once, I already know that you don't read my posts completely.
So we can eliminate Clem as the “top terran” in question that is fighting for nerfs for other races
Maybe Maru is the terran in question? He does has a history of complaining how weak terran is in lots of interviews (even when terran was strong)
Was somebody mention its Spirit who advocate for Terran in the balance forum? As for Maru, he would complain in interview but I doubt he care much about the game overall at his point to make some balance suggestion. The way he played in the last couple tournament showed how he was lacking preparation or even practice, keep doing the same thing, make no adjustment and terrible at reading the game state.
JUST BUFF PROTOSS. what's the worst that can happen? Classic and herO win some tournaments? Oh no... It's not like Serral/clem have been winning everything for years.
You want to know what the problem is? This is the problem.
Protoss is not designed well. It has a lower skill ceiling than the other 2 races do and a lower skill floor. This is why they are over represented in GM and in the lower rungs of pro play and under represented at the top of pro play.
So buffing Protoss so that herO (as an example) can consistently beat Serral and Maru and Clem and Dark would have a cascading effect that would impact every tier of play from the top of the professional level all the way down to Bronze league.
This would turn into tournaments where PvP is the most played match up which would kill viewership. This would mean that Protoss which already dominates the ladder would absolutely CRUSH the ladder.
This would lead to an outcry from the community that would demand Protoss nerfs, and they would get them. And then we start this entire process over again.
This isn't hypothetical. This process has already happened many times in SC2's lifespan. It always comes from the same place. Protoss is designed poorly. PiG in his rant even talks about it a lot but mostly as a point that the balance council is unable to actually do anything to fix Protoss' core design so all that's left them for them to do is to tune their power level which if tuned far enough to produce Protoss champions will cause a backlash at the community level immediately afterward.
So that's the answer to your question, "what's the worst that can happen." You want to see worst case scenario look at what happened during the Void Ray meta when Blizzard buffed those not that long ago.
Any buff that the balance council gives to Protoss will be twice as impactful at the lower levels than it will be at the top level. Protoss needs a LOT of buffs to get it to where Serral stops dominating them, and that will mean a LOT of buffs x2 when facing Protoss on the ladder.
This is the fundamental problem when looking at Protoss balance in SC2. It's a badly designed race, it's a race that is designed to thrive in Best of 1's on the ladder, not Best of 7's in a tournament setting. All of the problems that come from being unable to find a good balance for that race comes from that foundational problem.
Until Blizzard has the guts to address those fundamental design problems, we're just going to keep repeating the same cycle over and over again.
This is an excellent, and I think quite accurate, assessment of the problem. A cognizance of what would actually happen if we buff protoss to tournament winning levels without addressing the design is sorely lacking from most of these discussions.
Having a "heavy tech unit" race built around super-synergistic hardcounter units, that just cheats a lot of the rules of unit reinforcements and map positioning, is not good. Warpgate (and now recall) are awful, awful ideas to try implement in a skill based highly competitive RTS. I see recall as essentially a needed crutch for the needed limitations of warp-gate based armies: they cannot be too mobile and good at responding on the map if you can literally make them, on location, with frontloaded production.
Carriers as a unit are an entirely separate problem, but also just a terrible unit and Blizzard should have removed them when they had the chance (sadly, they backed down from this). It's always going to be giga-busted at levels where lategame control is bad (i.e., everyone below like top 20-30), and useless for the very top. If you make it good enough to be good against Serral, it will make the game unplayable for the rest.
For what it is worth - the direction of just removing battery overcharge and trying to create a unit/spell interaction based replacement is a real step in the right direction. It will probably be too weak though, and are many steps back in this patch (salvaging turrets and moving Zerg defence budget to static D when we want to reduce turtling what the actual **** lmao), so I can't really get excited by it.
So we can eliminate Clem as the “top terran” in question that is fighting for nerfs for other races
Maybe Maru is the terran in question? He does has a history of complaining how weak terran is in lots of interviews (even when terran was strong)
It's 100% Heromarine Though the top terran tag is questionable in his case
??? HM has said many times, that he does not participate in the balance council, since he thinks it is stupid, when the pros balance the game they are playing, exactly because of conflicting interests. So, it is 0% Heromarine...
On October 25 2024 22:14 BlackEyed wrote: I don't understand, is this some kind of conspiracy or why is the obvious OP of ghosts being ignored? Has a pew pew lover gotten to power or is there some other reason?
Remember that the balance council is heavily Terran favoured and Protoss biased
There is no way the ghost will get nerfed no matter how Op they due to all the terran pros whining within the council
Right, there's no way they'd ever nerf the Ghost. I must have imagined them nerfing EMP radius by 33%, snipe damage by 20% and making units being able to cancel snipe by running away
On October 25 2024 22:14 BlackEyed wrote: I don't understand, is this some kind of conspiracy or why is the obvious OP of ghosts being ignored? Has a pew pew lover gotten to power or is there some other reason?
Remember that the balance council is heavily Terran favoured and Protoss biased
There is no way the ghost will get nerfed no matter how Op they due to all the terran pros whining within the council
Right, there's no way they'd ever nerf the Ghost. I must have imagined them nerfing EMP radius by 33%, snipe damage by 20% and making units being able to cancel snipe by running away
How on earth has this to do with anything? If a unit is stronger than it should be, does it matter how many times has been nerfed or changed? Brother, u have reached a point where ur "arguments" only provide spam for this thread and nothing more.
So we can eliminate Clem as the “top terran” in question that is fighting for nerfs for other races
Maybe Maru is the terran in question? He does has a history of complaining how weak terran is in lots of interviews (even when terran was strong)
Was somebody mention its Spirit who advocate for Terran in the balance forum? As for Maru, he would complain in interview but I doubt he care much about the game overall at his point to make some balance suggestion. The way he played in the last couple tournament showed how he was lacking preparation or even practice, keep doing the same thing, make no adjustment and terrible at reading the game state.
Maru has also never to my knowledge been vocal about balance and he's had the longest career of any top tier pro still playing SC2. In all of the teams that Maru has been on I can remember teammates of his being vocal about balance, be them Ryung, Rogue, Creator, or even Polt.
We never hear from Maru about balance and any time we do it's the shortest vaguest answer possible just to give an answer to whoever is asking him in an interview.
I sincerely doubt that Maru is advocating for tons of Terran buffs behind the scenes, especially at this point in his career.
On October 25 2024 22:14 BlackEyed wrote: I don't understand, is this some kind of conspiracy or why is the obvious OP of ghosts being ignored? Has a pew pew lover gotten to power or is there some other reason?
Remember that the balance council is heavily Terran favoured and Protoss biased
There is no way the ghost will get nerfed no matter how Op they due to all the terran pros whining within the council
Right, there's no way they'd ever nerf the Ghost. I must have imagined them nerfing EMP radius by 33%, snipe damage by 20% and making units being able to cancel snipe by running away
How on earth has this to do with anything? If a unit is stronger than it should be, does it matter how many times has been nerfed or changed? Brother, u have reached a point where ur "arguments" only provide spam for this thread and nothing more.
Jesus, what's going on with your reading comprehension? He said there's no way the balance council would ever nerf the Ghost. This statement is hardly justifiable when we know from past data that in fact the balance council is very willing to nerf the Ghost as they have done it multiple times.
On October 25 2024 22:14 BlackEyed wrote: I don't understand, is this some kind of conspiracy or why is the obvious OP of ghosts being ignored? Has a pew pew lover gotten to power or is there some other reason?
Remember that the balance council is heavily Terran favoured and Protoss biased
There is no way the ghost will get nerfed no matter how Op they due to all the terran pros whining within the council
Right, there's no way they'd ever nerf the Ghost. I must have imagined them nerfing EMP radius by 33%, snipe damage by 20% and making units being able to cancel snipe by running away
How on earth has this to do with anything? If a unit is stronger than it should be, does it matter how many times has been nerfed or changed? Brother, u have reached a point where ur "arguments" only provide spam for this thread and nothing more.
Did you not read the post he was replying to? What part of "There is no way the ghost will get nerfed" do you not understand?
I'm so tired of the "you can't buff Protoss" stuff. No matter how many times it's repeated, it still won't be anything more than a perception-based meme. Honestly, please just watch the PiG video. It's a great rant, and if you watch it you can see what he actually says.
PiG does an excellent job of addressing how (1) the idea that Protoss is waaaay easier than the other races is mostly a meme, since it still takes lots of skill to win with them at high levels, (2) even to the degree it's true it's unavoidable due to the basic design of the game and doesn't really matter, and (3) even to the degree it's true it's better for the scene to have Protoss win anyway.
Honestly, has anyone actually been watching the game for the past ten years? Anyone? The idea that (1) every time Protoss has been competitive with the other races they've easily won everything to a problematic degree, and (2) everyone has hated it and it's hurt the scene is...I mean, it's breathtaking, honestly. It bears no relation to any reality not based purely on TL dot net theorycrafting discussion threads.
I've been watching SC2 and on TL since 2007, the first announcement video, the first Battle Report. For the vast majority of SC2's lifespan, Protoss was competitive with the other two races. For most of that time, a decent part (but not all) of their competitiveness came through aggressive play, rushes, timing pushes, etc. During that time, there is absolutely 0 question that (1) there was still a huge skill gap among Protoss players and (2) Protoss did not dominate everything, nor were they represented to an unfair degree in tournaments (in fact, they still lagged slightly even at peak).
Did some Protoss wins sometimes annoy pros of other races? Were there memes about Protoss? Yes, there were. But did anyone take them actually 100% seriously other than grumpy Terran pros and/or Terrans on Reddit and/or theorycrafters on TL? Did casual fans of the game care? Was the scene negatively impacted?
The simple answer is no. Not only no but literally the opposite. If you actually look at past eras and past tournaments and weren't just arguing on TL all day it's very clear that SC2 as an ESPORT was positively impacted by Protoss winning. Hell, it was even positively impacted by The Big Book of Protoss Bullshit.
As PiG again very eloquently argues, casuals and ESPORTs viewers by and large don't care about perfect balance or the question of who is the objectively most skilled player in the sense of pure APM or mult-tasking. They care about (1) seeing all races be at least competitive, and (2) seeing lots of cool stuff and even (3) seeing lots of competition and drama. And Protoss winning is necessary and in fact very positive for all those things.
And man, we're not even playing the same game we were playing then. Everything in SC2 took less APM and multi-tasking and rapid decision-making in WoL and people still showed their skill in other more "strategic" ways and the better player still won. "Skill" does not equal "raw APM and multi-tasking." Who cares that Protoss macro takes fewer clicks than Terran macro?
In any event, Protoss today takes waaaaaay more of the kind of skill TL dot net people like than it did in WoL or HoS or early LotV. All of the "problematic" aspects of the race have been nerfed or altered. There simply is no "Grand Protoss Threat" anymore. You could buff Protoss to the moon and they still wouldn't have any Bullshit a tenth as potent as the WoL nonsense that MC or sOs got up to; and that stuff was, honestly, generally great for the scene and everyone looks back on it and those players fondly.
Look, I'm not asking for a return to the great era of Protoss Bullshit; and indeed, I don't think it would even be possible to see it given LotV economy, Warp Gate, etc changes. I like the new Energy Overcharge ability; I like that it's a high-level ability that lets ppl showcase skill. But I implore you, again: please let this meme just die.
You can buff Protoss straight-up and nothing bad will happen. Protoss needs buffs to compensate for Battery Overcharge being removed and the strength and diversity of Terran openers and Ghosts and Libs being so strong; it just does. And all this other stuff is just a distraction.
On October 25 2024 22:14 BlackEyed wrote: I don't understand, is this some kind of conspiracy or why is the obvious OP of ghosts being ignored? Has a pew pew lover gotten to power or is there some other reason?
Remember that the balance council is heavily Terran favoured and Protoss biased
There is no way the ghost will get nerfed no matter how Op they due to all the terran pros whining within the council
Right, there's no way they'd ever nerf the Ghost. I must have imagined them nerfing EMP radius by 33%, snipe damage by 20% and making units being able to cancel snipe by running away
Terrans pro were strong negotiators, they took a small nerf in ghost ( don’t kid yourself ghost is still op in its current state) fin exchange for other buffs to their race and nerfs to other races
So overall the terran still came out ahead
The terrans will never let their race to get direct nerfs without other buff compensation. Unlike toss nerfs after nerfs without any direct buff
Pig definitely made all the valid points in his videos.
Like I mentioned the balance council should be made of
On October 25 2024 22:14 BlackEyed wrote: I don't understand, is this some kind of conspiracy or why is the obvious OP of ghosts being ignored? Has a pew pew lover gotten to power or is there some other reason?
Remember that the balance council is heavily Terran favoured and Protoss biased
There is no way the ghost will get nerfed no matter how Op they due to all the terran pros whining within the council
Right, there's no way they'd ever nerf the Ghost. I must have imagined them nerfing EMP radius by 33%, snipe damage by 20% and making units being able to cancel snipe by running away
Terrans pro were strong negotiators, they took a small nerf in ghost ( don’t kid yourself ghost is still op in its current state) fin exchange for other buffs to their race and nerfs to other races
So overall the terran still came out ahead
The terrans will never let their race to get direct nerfs without other buff compensation. Unlike toss nerfs after nerfs without any direct buff
1. Those are not "small" nerfs. 2. Stop trying to move the goalposts. You said that the balance council would never nerf the ghost, when in fact they have nerfed the ghost multiple times. You were wrong, end of story.
On October 25 2024 22:14 BlackEyed wrote: I don't understand, is this some kind of conspiracy or why is the obvious OP of ghosts being ignored? Has a pew pew lover gotten to power or is there some other reason?
Remember that the balance council is heavily Terran favoured and Protoss biased
There is no way the ghost will get nerfed no matter how Op they due to all the terran pros whining within the council
Right, there's no way they'd ever nerf the Ghost. I must have imagined them nerfing EMP radius by 33%, snipe damage by 20% and making units being able to cancel snipe by running away
Terrans pro were strong negotiators, they took a small nerf in ghost ( don’t kid yourself ghost is still op in its current state) fin exchange for other buffs to their race and nerfs to other races
So overall the terran still came out ahead
The terrans will never let their race to get direct nerfs without other buff compensation. Unlike toss nerfs after nerfs without any direct buff
1. Those are not "small" nerfs. 2. Stop trying to move the goalposts. You said that the balance council would never nerf the ghost, when in fact they have nerfed the ghost multiple times. You were wrong, end of story.
You’re delusional if you think those were big nerfs lol. Cause they were hardly noticeable
Moral of the story: Your post ain’t worth my time, welcome to my ignore list
On October 25 2024 22:14 BlackEyed wrote: I don't understand, is this some kind of conspiracy or why is the obvious OP of ghosts being ignored? Has a pew pew lover gotten to power or is there some other reason?
Remember that the balance council is heavily Terran favoured and Protoss biased
There is no way the ghost will get nerfed no matter how Op they due to all the terran pros whining within the council
Right, there's no way they'd ever nerf the Ghost. I must have imagined them nerfing EMP radius by 33%, snipe damage by 20% and making units being able to cancel snipe by running away
Terrans pro were strong negotiators, they took a small nerf in ghost ( don’t kid yourself ghost is still op in its current state) fin exchange for other buffs to their race and nerfs to other races
So overall the terran still came out ahead
The terrans will never let their race to get direct nerfs without other buff compensation. Unlike toss nerfs after nerfs without any direct buff
1. Those are not "small" nerfs. 2. Stop trying to move the goalposts. You said that the balance council would never nerf the ghost, when in fact they have nerfed the ghost multiple times. You were wrong, end of story.
You’re delusional if you think those were big nerfs lol. Cause they were hardly noticeable
Moral of the story: Your post ain’t worth my time, welcome to my ignore list
I know you feel compelled to die on the dumbest hill possible, but you really don't have to.
On October 26 2024 06:01 Figgy wrote: Patches like these are why I stopped watching SC2 at all and am now watching Brood War instead. Love watching Soulkey dominate ASL right now
What is the balance team thinking?? Everyone knows Protoss is the weakest race and they just nerf them again. It's completely unbelievable, guess I'll continue to never watch SC2 again, it was fun while it lasted.
Is it that much better seeing Protoss die to a hydra bust for what feels like the millionth time?
There’s pain to be had in both games, most notably if you are a Protoss enjoyer.
I think the overall thrust of this patch is pretty shit as regards Protoss, bafflingly so indeed.
Although I think there’s been some overreaction to the Balance Council’s tenure in its totality. PvZ’s been in a decent shape for a fair well, there have been some smart tweaks that I think have improved PvP as a matchup.
On the other hand, TvP has been crippling Toss’ ability to consistently be at the top end of tournaments/win any and this patch making this worse feels like a giant kick in the balls.
Protoss has been doing just fine in KCM Race Survival, and has good representation across the board in ASL.
The difference between Soulkey winning everything in Brood War is that everyone knows he's just a better player than everyone else. He's playing the least represented race by a longshot and just doing things no one else can do. Imagine taking Brood War, seeing that Soulkey is winning everything, and in response you buff spine crawlers and nerf Dragoon attack speed by 9.6%, and Reavers can no longer kill a Hydralisk in one shot. Just to make sure Protoss can never win a single game every again. It's utterly ridiculous.
As someone who doesn't play either game anymore, I just want to see good balanced entertaining. SC2 hasn't offered that for years, and now they want to make it so one of the races is basically unplayable. Unbelievable
On October 26 2024 06:01 Figgy wrote: Patches like these are why I stopped watching SC2 at all and am now watching Brood War instead. Love watching Soulkey dominate ASL right now
What is the balance team thinking?? Everyone knows Protoss is the weakest race and they just nerf them again. It's completely unbelievable, guess I'll continue to never watch SC2 again, it was fun while it lasted.
Is it that much better seeing Protoss die to a hydra bust for what feels like the millionth time?
There’s pain to be had in both games, most notably if you are a Protoss enjoyer.
I think the overall thrust of this patch is pretty shit as regards Protoss, bafflingly so indeed.
Although I think there’s been some overreaction to the Balance Council’s tenure in its totality. PvZ’s been in a decent shape for a fair well, there have been some smart tweaks that I think have improved PvP as a matchup.
On the other hand, TvP has been crippling Toss’ ability to consistently be at the top end of tournaments/win any and this patch making this worse feels like a giant kick in the balls.
Protoss has been doing just fine in KCM Race Survival, and has good representation across the board in ASL.
The difference between Soulkey winning everything in Brood War is that everyone knows he's just a better player than everyone else. He's playing the least represented race by a longshot and just doing things no one else can do. Imagine taking Brood War, seeing that Soulkey is winning everything, and in response you buff spine crawlers and nerf Dragoon attack speed by 9.6%, and Reavers can no longer kill a Hydralisk in one shot. Just to make sure Protoss can never win a single game every again. It's utterly ridiculous.
As someone who doesn't play either game anymore, I just want to see good balanced entertaining. SC2 hasn't offered that for years, and now they want to make it so one of the races is basically unplayable. Unbelievable
That’s not really especially different from Serral of the last few years, albeit Clem in relatively recent times has stepped it up and gapped him latterly.
That aside I think it’s not merely a bad proposed patch, it’s a bafflingly bad one. So I do agree there. Granted it’s not actually live yet, and I imagine given the backlash we’ll see a better second draft.
So we can eliminate Clem as the “top terran” in question that is fighting for nerfs for other races
Maybe Maru is the terran in question? He does has a history of complaining how weak terran is in lots of interviews (even when terran was strong)
Was somebody mention its Spirit who advocate for Terran in the balance forum? As for Maru, he would complain in interview but I doubt he care much about the game overall at his point to make some balance suggestion. The way he played in the last couple tournament showed how he was lacking preparation or even practice, keep doing the same thing, make no adjustment and terrible at reading the game state.
Maru has also never to my knowledge been vocal about balance and he's had the longest career of any top tier pro still playing SC2. In all of the teams that Maru has been on I can remember teammates of his being vocal about balance, be them Ryung, Rogue, Creator, or even Polt.
We never hear from Maru about balance and any time we do it's the shortest vaguest answer possible just to give an answer to whoever is asking him in an interview.
I sincerely doubt that Maru is advocating for tons of Terran buffs behind the scenes, especially at this point in his career.
I can imagine everyone arguing for two hours about ghost change with Maru wrapped in a hoddie in the corner of the room, then him finally going to wisper into ByuN's ears : "No, Toss imba, Ghost need pewpew" and all the terrans applauding.
Oliveira is also definetely a top terran...anyway we will probably never know who is in charge. Overall I don't see any good for protoss with this patch
I actually think 1. WombaT should not have had adopted this patch 2. There are good changes for P in the patch, but there are too many buffs to the others to make it unpredictable.
+ (TvP) Colossus shield hp change is good: 8->10 viking shots are needed to take down emp'd robots now. + (PvP,TvP) Battery hp/shield increase is nice for (adept) walls as well, T tries to (and will) focus down super battery. + 400/400 meme ship is a good change no one asked for = Tempest is a good balanced change, more microable, slightly less range
For the colossus change, more hp means also unrecoverable damage after a fight, not a significant change for me. I don't get the comment "more rewarding for Armor upgrade investments" in the patch note.
On October 28 2024 00:07 Qotsa4 wrote: For the colossus change, more hp means also unrecoverable damage after a fight, not a significant change for me. I don't get the comment "more rewarding for Armor upgrade investments" in the patch note.
Armor upgrades apply to HP not to shields so if you have more HP and less shields your armor upgrades cover a larger percentage of the damage that your colossus takes.
I've watched Artosis, Harstem, and Pig's breakdown of this patch.
I mostly agree with Artosis, most of the changes are good ideas, or at least the flavor of them is in the spirit of the right direction. The issue is that the balance council still thinks that balancing Protoss to not be, "too frustrating" at lower leagues is hamstringing the entire process. Frankly I don't care if your scouting or micro or macro sucks, Protoss is strong below the pro level, fucking deal with it, SC2 is an old game, and I'm Zerg fwiw.
For Terran and Zerg, it's mostly net buffs. All Zerg needed was the shroud change and the Queen mineral change, boom, those would have been great changes. Hydralisks see plenty of use, they don't need anymore changes. Shroud sucks, Queens are too efficient. Spore and Spine buffs? For a tiny mineral nerf to Queens? They say they want to nerf defensive play but then buff static defense for Zerg, this is a total contradiction. Spines and spores are not bad static D, totally unnecessary changes.
They over thought this one alot, less is more.
Terran changes swing from excellent like the Liberator change to frankly asinine, like the missile turret salvage change.
The Protoss changes are imo, bad, extremely so, I heavily disagree with most of them and imo this will put the final nail in the coffin for this race at the pro level, the balance councils fear of not giving Protoss core power buffs because noobs below the pro level get "frustrated" is frankly stupid as hell, it was stupid 7 years ago and it's even more stupid now in the twilight of this games lifespan.
Tempest change = Okay? Cool I guess? Is this going to boost Protoss power level?
Mothership = Who cares? Cool I guess?
Colossus = This unit sucks and has suffered from huge power creep loss, it needs a net buff, not a feel good change. Z and T have a plethora of counters to this unit.
Immortal nerf = Literally idiotic, and for a match up that is widely considered at this point very balanced at that.
Disruptor nerf = Literally idiotic, this unit is bad at the top level of play and was one of the few come back units that Protoss had. Once again, Protoss get's nerfed for being "frustrating" with no suitable buffs to compensate. I don't even like this unit, they should remove it and replace it with the Reaver. Better yet, remove it and buff GW units accordingly.
Energy OC = I actually like this idea, but coupling it with a nerf to Protoss's primary defensive ability is imo bad. Battery OC is not a "fun high skill" ability, but it's necessary because Protoss is soooo fragile early on, especially against Terran. This needs to be closely monitored, Protoss doesn't need nerfs, they need buffs.
Really hoping the balance council grows some balls and just lays on some damn buffs for Protoss, enough is enough, they don't have to be weak forever guys.
On October 28 2024 00:07 Qotsa4 wrote: For the colossus change, more hp means also unrecoverable damage after a fight, not a significant change for me. I don't get the comment "more rewarding for Armor upgrade investments" in the patch note.
Armor upgrades apply to HP not to shields so if you have more HP and less shields your armor upgrades cover a larger percentage of the damage that your colossus takes.
On October 25 2024 22:14 BlackEyed wrote: I don't understand, is this some kind of conspiracy or why is the obvious OP of ghosts being ignored? Has a pew pew lover gotten to power or is there some other reason?
Remember that the balance council is heavily Terran favoured and Protoss biased
There is no way the ghost will get nerfed no matter how Op they due to all the terran pros whining within the council
Right, there's no way they'd ever nerf the Ghost. I must have imagined them nerfing EMP radius by 33%, snipe damage by 20% and making units being able to cancel snipe by running away
How on earth has this to do with anything? If a unit is stronger than it should be, does it matter how many times has been nerfed or changed? Brother, u have reached a point where ur "arguments" only provide spam for this thread and nothing more.
Jesus, what's going on with your reading comprehension? He said there's no way the balance council would ever nerf the Ghost. This statement is hardly justifiable when we know from past data that in fact the balance council is very willing to nerf the Ghost as they have done it multiple times.
I will try to explain this just like I would, to a 5-year-old child. It is reading comprehension that would require you to understand that he talks about the current state of balance council, with his point deriving from the fact that we just had a fresh balance changes proposal, and a ghost nerf/change is not among them. So yeah, not only his point is valid but with ur answer that talks about year old ghost changes, proves that u either have poor comprehension skills, or u r just here to spam since u have nothing better to do. In either occasion, I'm out.
P.S. With all the community outrage that the absence of a ghost nerf/change caused, that even made Clem to be scared and speak in favor of a nerf, let us hope that we will soon see fresh changes that will include such a proposal.
On October 25 2024 22:14 BlackEyed wrote: I don't understand, is this some kind of conspiracy or why is the obvious OP of ghosts being ignored? Has a pew pew lover gotten to power or is there some other reason?
Remember that the balance council is heavily Terran favoured and Protoss biased
There is no way the ghost will get nerfed no matter how Op they due to all the terran pros whining within the council
Right, there's no way they'd ever nerf the Ghost. I must have imagined them nerfing EMP radius by 33%, snipe damage by 20% and making units being able to cancel snipe by running away
How on earth has this to do with anything? If a unit is stronger than it should be, does it matter how many times has been nerfed or changed? Brother, u have reached a point where ur "arguments" only provide spam for this thread and nothing more.
Jesus, what's going on with your reading comprehension? He said there's no way the balance council would ever nerf the Ghost. This statement is hardly justifiable when we know from past data that in fact the balance council is very willing to nerf the Ghost as they have done it multiple times.
I will try to explain this just like I would, to a 5-year-old child. It is reading comprehension that would require you to understand that he talks about the current state of balance council, with his point deriving from the fact that we just had a fresh balance changes proposal, and a ghost nerf/change is not among them. So yeah, not only his point is valid but with ur answer that talks about year old ghost changes, proves that u either have poor comprehension skills, or u r just here to spam since u have nothing better to do. In either occasion, I'm out.
P.S. With all the community outrage that the absence of a ghost nerf/change caused, that even made Clem to be scared and speak in favor of a nerf, let us hope that we will soon see fresh changes that will include such a proposal.
I don't even like this unit, they should remove it and replace it with the Reaver.
Reaver is probably the best designed protoss unit IMO. Removing it is akin to deleting the dropship or the siege tank from terran
For Brood War perhaps
I think the suspicion has always been that they found a way to make it suitably powerful in SC2 with its engine. Either brutally powerful, or having to be over nerfed so it was ineffective. Seeing it in SC Evo seemed to somewhat validate that at least for me
Also its coolest synergy with shuttles, really drops off a lot quicker in being realistically doable given how much quicker armies scale up.
For me it’s possibly my favourite RTS unit, although the siege tank may be the consensus best-designed, iconic SC unit. So I’d absolutely bloody love to see it
But given Protoss has had not one, but two robo AoE units that aren’t the Reaver, that would be my best guess.
I think the Disruptor is a clear attempt to make something similar but have them become harder to use the more of them you have so as to not be oppressive. I’m not sure it’s been a super effective experiment overall, but I think the rationale
It’s hard enough to attack into disruptors, but they are a bit of an APM/micro sink, I can’t imagine how hard it would be to attack into 5/6 reavers with reliable scarabs, that you can A-move
Perhaps simply taking the disruptor idea and remove the A-move ability off the reaver, but let you target fire with a regular targeted attack versus an ability might be one way.
I don't even like this unit, they should remove it and replace it with the Reaver.
Reaver is probably the best designed protoss unit IMO. Removing it is akin to deleting the dropship or the siege tank from terran
The Reaver was just another victim of the SC2 team deciding to replace units with new designs that weren't as good as their SC1 counter parts. Protoss lost the Reaver and Arbiter and got the Mothership and Collosus instead. Terran lost the Vulture, Goliath and Wraith and got the Hellion, Banshee, Viking and Thor instead. The roles that used to be accomplished by 2 units in the Goliath and Wraith now gets filled by 3 units.
Zerg actually got it the worst in these trades. They had their core ground to air unit moved to the Lair and made double the supply and cost (almost) and replaced with a unit that doesn't fit that role at all. So because of that stupidity Blizzard had to then tweak their macro mechanic to form the basis of their early game anti-air role.
Aside from my complaints about Warp Gate, my next biggest complaint about SC2 are these (if they weren't broken why did you fix them?) units in SC2, that were designed to replace amazing Brood War units that ended up being straight up worse units in general.
It's one thing to replace the Scout, Dropship, Devourer, Wraith and Shuttle with newer more interesting designs. But replacing units like the Goliath, Hydralisk and Reaver with shit like the Collosus, Roach and Thor caused ALL kinds of problems that each race is still dealing with today.
I don't even like this unit, they should remove it and replace it with the Reaver.
Reaver is probably the best designed protoss unit IMO. Removing it is akin to deleting the dropship or the siege tank from terran
The Reaver was just another victim of the SC2 team deciding to replace units with new designs that weren't as good as their SC1 counter parts. Protoss lost the Reaver and Arbiter and got the Mothership and Collosus instead. Terran lost the Vulture, Goliath and Wraith and got the Hellion, Banshee, Viking and Thor instead. The roles that used to be accomplished by 2 units in the Goliath and Wraith now gets filled by 3 units.
Zerg actually got it the worst in these trades. They had their core ground to air unit moved to the Lair and made double the supply and cost (almost) and replaced with a unit that doesn't fit that role at all. So because of that stupidity Blizzard had to then tweak their macro mechanic to form the basis of their early game anti-air role.
Aside from my complaints about Warp Gate, my next biggest complaint about SC2 are these (if they weren't broken why did you fix them?) units in SC2, that were designed to replace amazing Brood War units that ended up being straight up worse units in general.
It's one thing to replace the Scout, Dropship, Devourer, Wraith and Shuttle with newer more interesting designs. But replacing units like the Goliath, Hydralisk and Reaver with shit like the Collosus, Roach and Thor caused ALL kinds of problems that each race is still dealing with today.
I've never understood this.
Starcraft 1 and Starcraft 2 are not the same game, they aren't even close to being the same game. Saying reavers would make SC2 protoss better is like saying they should put longbowmen or Spell Breakers into the game, they are just RTS concepts. Sure some could be adapted into SC2 and turn out great, but there's essentially nothing of the theory of BW that works in SC2.
Don't get me wrong, I generally enjoy BW, but like we have baneling in SC2, and easier macro, and better unit movement. Do you want to give a Starcraft 2 zerg a cheap hatch-tech mobile anti-air so that he can ling-bane-hydra bust every game? Of course not, that's an absurd idea.
Also, I know it's a core BW unit, but the Goliath is the world's dullest unit. It's just a giant marine that cannot micro. That's like if someone complained they removed the corruptor from SC3.
I don't even like this unit, they should remove it and replace it with the Reaver.
Reaver is probably the best designed protoss unit IMO. Removing it is akin to deleting the dropship or the siege tank from terran
The Reaver was just another victim of the SC2 team deciding to replace units with new designs that weren't as good as their SC1 counter parts. Protoss lost the Reaver and Arbiter and got the Mothership and Collosus instead. Terran lost the Vulture, Goliath and Wraith and got the Hellion, Banshee, Viking and Thor instead. The roles that used to be accomplished by 2 units in the Goliath and Wraith now gets filled by 3 units.
Zerg actually got it the worst in these trades. They had their core ground to air unit moved to the Lair and made double the supply and cost (almost) and replaced with a unit that doesn't fit that role at all. So because of that stupidity Blizzard had to then tweak their macro mechanic to form the basis of their early game anti-air role.
Aside from my complaints about Warp Gate, my next biggest complaint about SC2 are these (if they weren't broken why did you fix them?) units in SC2, that were designed to replace amazing Brood War units that ended up being straight up worse units in general.
It's one thing to replace the Scout, Dropship, Devourer, Wraith and Shuttle with newer more interesting designs. But replacing units like the Goliath, Hydralisk and Reaver with shit like the Collosus, Roach and Thor caused ALL kinds of problems that each race is still dealing with today.
I've never understood this.
Starcraft 1 and Starcraft 2 are not the same game, they aren't even close to being the same game. Saying reavers would make SC2 protoss better is like saying they should put longbowmen or Speel Breakers into the game, they are just RTS concepts. Sure some could be adapted into SC2 and turn out great, but there's essentially nothing of the theory of BW that works in SC2.
Don't get me wrong, I generally enjoy BW, but like we have baneling in SC2, and easier macro, and better unit movement. Do you want to give a Starcraft 2 zerg a cheap hatch-tech mobile anti-air so that he can ling-bane-hydra bust every game? Of course not, that's an absurd idea.
Also, I know it's a core BW unit, but the Goliath is the world's dullest unit. It's just a giant marine that cannot micro. That's like if someone complained they removed the corruptor from SC3.
Look at the marine. It’s not that different in stats from its BW counterpart, but much stronger based on these other factors
I’m of the opinion that classic vulture/tank/goliath mech would be basically unbeatable with SC2’s control, pathing and macro
People complain about Thors being perpetually clunky units, I think that was always intentional to not give mech a really solid AA unit that’s easy to use.
SC2’s devs made missteps don’t get me wrong (warpgate curse youuuuuuu), but I’m pretty sure they knew these aspects of their baby and what they might need to change based on the engine choices they made.
I mean, even in WoL campaign there’s quite a lot of these missing units from BW. I’d imagine they pulled over BW units, made their new units and (imperfectly) figured out what worked and what didn’t for the multiplayer
Still want my Reaver though. Perhaps in WombaT ‘sPatch 2.0…
I don't even like this unit, they should remove it and replace it with the Reaver.
Reaver is probably the best designed protoss unit IMO. Removing it is akin to deleting the dropship or the siege tank from terran
The Reaver was just another victim of the SC2 team deciding to replace units with new designs that weren't as good as their SC1 counter parts. Protoss lost the Reaver and Arbiter and got the Mothership and Collosus instead. Terran lost the Vulture, Goliath and Wraith and got the Hellion, Banshee, Viking and Thor instead. The roles that used to be accomplished by 2 units in the Goliath and Wraith now gets filled by 3 units.
Zerg actually got it the worst in these trades. They had their core ground to air unit moved to the Lair and made double the supply and cost (almost) and replaced with a unit that doesn't fit that role at all. So because of that stupidity Blizzard had to then tweak their macro mechanic to form the basis of their early game anti-air role.
Aside from my complaints about Warp Gate, my next biggest complaint about SC2 are these (if they weren't broken why did you fix them?) units in SC2, that were designed to replace amazing Brood War units that ended up being straight up worse units in general.
It's one thing to replace the Scout, Dropship, Devourer, Wraith and Shuttle with newer more interesting designs. But replacing units like the Goliath, Hydralisk and Reaver with shit like the Collosus, Roach and Thor caused ALL kinds of problems that each race is still dealing with today.
I've never understood this.
Starcraft 1 and Starcraft 2 are not the same game, they aren't even close to being the same game. Saying reavers would make SC2 protoss better is like saying they should put longbowmen or Speel Breakers into the game, they are just RTS concepts. Sure some could be adapted into SC2 and turn out great, but there's essentially nothing of the theory of BW that works in SC2.
Don't get me wrong, I generally enjoy BW, but like we have baneling in SC2, and easier macro, and better unit movement. Do you want to give a Starcraft 2 zerg a cheap hatch-tech mobile anti-air so that he can ling-bane-hydra bust every game? Of course not, that's an absurd idea.
Also, I know it's a core BW unit, but the Goliath is the world's dullest unit. It's just a giant marine that cannot micro. That's like if someone complained they removed the corruptor from SC3.
Look at the marine. It’s not that different in stats from its BW counterpart, but much stronger based on these other factors
I’m of the opinion that classic vulture/tank/goliath mech would be basically unbeatable with SC2’s control, pathing and macro
People complain about Thors being perpetually clunky units, I think that was always intentional to not give mech a really solid AA unit that’s easy to use.
SC2’s devs made missteps don’t get me wrong (warpgate curse youuuuuuu), but I’m pretty sure they knew these aspects of their baby and what they might need to change based on the engine choices they made.
I mean, even in WoL campaign there’s quite a lot of these missing units from BW. I’d imagine they pulled over BW units, made their new units and (imperfectly) figured out what worked and what didn’t for the multiplayer
Still want my Reaver though. Perhaps in WombaT ‘sPatch 2.0…
Yeah, I pretty much agree with all that, altought I go back and fourth on warpgate. With all the talks about the balance council, now's the time to push for balance emperor Wombat the First.
On October 28 2024 00:54 Beelzebub1 wrote: I've watched Artosis, Harstem, and Pig's breakdown of this patch.
I mostly agree with Artosis, most of the changes are good ideas, or at least the flavor of them is in the spirit of the right direction. The issue is that the balance council still thinks that balancing Protoss to not be, "too frustrating" at lower leagues is hamstringing the entire process. Frankly I don't care if your scouting or micro or macro sucks, Protoss is strong below the pro level, fucking deal with it, SC2 is an old game, and I'm Zerg fwiw.
For Terran and Zerg, it's mostly net buffs. All Zerg needed was the shroud change and the Queen mineral change, boom, those would have been great changes. Hydralisks see plenty of use, they don't need anymore changes. Shroud sucks, Queens are too efficient. Spore and Spine buffs? For a tiny mineral nerf to Queens? They say they want to nerf defensive play but then buff static defense for Zerg, this is a total contradiction. Spines and spores are not bad static D, totally unnecessary changes.
They over thought this one alot, less is more.
Terran changes swing from excellent like the Liberator change to frankly asinine, like the missile turret salvage change.
The Protoss changes are imo, bad, extremely so, I heavily disagree with most of them and imo this will put the final nail in the coffin for this race at the pro level, the balance councils fear of not giving Protoss core power buffs because noobs below the pro level get "frustrated" is frankly stupid as hell, it was stupid 7 years ago and it's even more stupid now in the twilight of this games lifespan.
Tempest change = Okay? Cool I guess? Is this going to boost Protoss power level?
Mothership = Who cares? Cool I guess?
Colossus = This unit sucks and has suffered from huge power creep loss, it needs a net buff, not a feel good change. Z and T have a plethora of counters to this unit.
Immortal nerf = Literally idiotic, and for a match up that is widely considered at this point very balanced at that.
Disruptor nerf = Literally idiotic, this unit is bad at the top level of play and was one of the few come back units that Protoss had. Once again, Protoss get's nerfed for being "frustrating" with no suitable buffs to compensate. I don't even like this unit, they should remove it and replace it with the Reaver. Better yet, remove it and buff GW units accordingly.
Energy OC = I actually like this idea, but coupling it with a nerf to Protoss's primary defensive ability is imo bad. Battery OC is not a "fun high skill" ability, but it's necessary because Protoss is soooo fragile early on, especially against Terran. This needs to be closely monitored, Protoss doesn't need nerfs, they need buffs.
Really hoping the balance council grows some balls and just lays on some damn buffs for Protoss, enough is enough, they don't have to be weak forever guys.
Protoss isnt just strong below pro. It's strong at (lower league) pro levels too. You dont wanna live in a world of PvP after PvP every tourney stream.
Get rid of warp tech.
Increase micro and multitasking by nerfing deathball-centric units like collosi to the ground and buffing other units to compensate. 1 giant ball of army roaming around is just a terrible gamplay.
I don't even like this unit, they should remove it and replace it with the Reaver.
Reaver is probably the best designed protoss unit IMO. Removing it is akin to deleting the dropship or the siege tank from terran
The Reaver was just another victim of the SC2 team deciding to replace units with new designs that weren't as good as their SC1 counter parts. Protoss lost the Reaver and Arbiter and got the Mothership and Collosus instead. Terran lost the Vulture, Goliath and Wraith and got the Hellion, Banshee, Viking and Thor instead. The roles that used to be accomplished by 2 units in the Goliath and Wraith now gets filled by 3 units.
Zerg actually got it the worst in these trades. They had their core ground to air unit moved to the Lair and made double the supply and cost (almost) and replaced with a unit that doesn't fit that role at all. So because of that stupidity Blizzard had to then tweak their macro mechanic to form the basis of their early game anti-air role.
Aside from my complaints about Warp Gate, my next biggest complaint about SC2 are these (if they weren't broken why did you fix them?) units in SC2, that were designed to replace amazing Brood War units that ended up being straight up worse units in general.
It's one thing to replace the Scout, Dropship, Devourer, Wraith and Shuttle with newer more interesting designs. But replacing units like the Goliath, Hydralisk and Reaver with shit like the Collosus, Roach and Thor caused ALL kinds of problems that each race is still dealing with today.
I've never understood this.
Starcraft 1 and Starcraft 2 are not the same game, they aren't even close to being the same game. Saying reavers would make SC2 protoss better is like saying they should put longbowmen or Spell Breakers into the game, they are just RTS concepts. Sure some could be adapted into SC2 and turn out great, but there's essentially nothing of the theory of BW that works in SC2.
Don't get me wrong, I generally enjoy BW, but like we have baneling in SC2, and easier macro, and better unit movement. Do you want to give a Starcraft 2 zerg a cheap hatch-tech mobile anti-air so that he can ling-bane-hydra bust every game? Of course not, that's an absurd idea.
Also, I know it's a core BW unit, but the Goliath is the world's dullest unit. It's just a giant marine that cannot micro. That's like if someone complained they removed the corruptor from SC3.
You make a good point about the Baneling, that's another unit that has been an absolute fucking nightmare to balance over the years.
So because Zerg has Banelings, they can't have Hydralisks in the early game. That makes sense.
But because Zerg doesn't have Hydralisks their early game anti-air is all but non-existant, that means they get absolutely wrecked by heavy investments in early game air harass. So Blizzard buffs the shit out of the Queen to compensate.
Now the Queen is this nightmare of a unit that does too much of everything and basically becomes the 1 stop shop for EVERYTHING Zerg needs to defend while also at the same time accelerating their macro and map control with Creep Tumors and Inject Larva.
How about just put Banelings on Lair Tech and leave the Hydralisk where it was? Why the fuck did we need to put Banelings on Hatch tech? That even works better conceptually since it gives Zerglings 3 distinct power spikes at each stage of evolution on the Hatchery. Speed on Hatch Tech, Banelings on Lair Tech and Adrenal Glands on Hive.
Look at all of the bullshit design we got for Zerg because the SC2 team REALLY WANTED their new units to have the spotlight? They REALLY wanted Roaches and Banelings to be on Hatch tech when there was absolutely no reason for them to be.
This is just one bad example. There's other examples all over the game.
Yes, at the end of the day, SC2 is a different game from Brood War. But we have so many areas of this game that have been such sticking points for balance over the years that all come from the SC2's team's strange new unit designs that replaced older unit designs that frankly worked better.
What would Protoss be if they didn't have Warp Gate and only had one Splash Unit off of the Robotics Facility? What other cool shit could we have given them to build their SC2 identity around? Instead of Hatch Tech Banelings being so overpowered that it justifes FOREVER how strong SC2 Marines are, what if we had Hatch Tech Hydralisks and put the Roach and Baneling on Lair tech and changed their power scaling a bit?
I'm just saying. There's a lot of missed opportunities for BETTER design in SC2 that could have happened if the SC2 team had simply not been so gung ho about putting their new concepts ahead of the old ones.
Also as far as the Goliath goes. I 100 percent agree that it's a dull unit. I'm not disputing that fact. I'm merely pointing out that the role the Goliath filled on the Terran roster (GtA Anti-armored) is one that has been a huge problem for the Terran roster throughout the entirety of SC2 because all of the units that replaced it for that role: Viking, Thor, Cyclone all have significant design features that make them unable to fill that role anywhere near as effectively as the Goliath did.
I'm all for replacing old boring unit designs with units that are more interesting. But not if it means that the new units perform horribly at the roles they are slotting in for. And by the way, because that role was so inadequately filled for so long in SC2 you know which unit can't ever be nerfed because it needs to be able to fill in for that role? Yup you guessed it, the good o'l reliable Terran Marine.
And don't get me wrong, The Viking as a concept is one of my favorite units in SC2. What sci fi nerd doesn't love a transforming Jet? But concept and actual gameplay are two different things. The Viking does not replace the Goliath. If anything it SORTA replaces the Wraith.
I get you, but I think it depends on where you're coming from.
Naturally, a lot of people on TL come from BW and have transitioned to SC2 after, which was expected to keep the same design philosophy. Personally, I played a little BW single-player as a kid, but I mostly tried it when the remastered came out after years of Starcraft 2.
There is no doubt BW does a lot of things right, some I like better than SC2 (the art direction among others), but with the eyes of a SC2 player I find there are very noticeable problems in BW design. For example, I find the defender advantage and the low-ground/high-ground mechanics to be way too strong leading to a lot of very stale games, I have quit BW game out of boredom, something I've never done in SC2. Part of that is just how the engine and the more intensive macro work, but part of it comes from the design units.
To continue with the hydralisk-baneling, I find that the lack of attacking tools for BW zerg is a huge problem. Unless you do an all-in, it's extremely hard for zerg to break a defensive position, especially up a ramp, before you have that one late-game unit with an overpower bandaid spell which makes your units invincible. I won't say the bane never created problems (although I think they mostly arrived from LOTV economy change), but I really don't think the BW approach is an adequate solution.
Same for the Goliath, you are right that there are no reliable and easy-to-mass ground-to-air mech units in SC2, but is it a problem? As a SC2 terran main, I find the existence of the goliath in BW to be a much bigger problem than its non-existence in SC2. It makes mech extremely safe to get to, encourages camping and turtling, and kills a lot of the variety. In SC2, terran players need to be so much more imaginative and attentive when going mech, the dynamic is a lot more fun to me.
Plus, like you said what do we get in ''exchange'' from the goliath? The SC2 marine, probably my favorite unit in all RTS games. It's so twitchy and versatile, it has awesome synergy with the rest of the terran toolbox.
Everyone likes different things and there is nothing wrong with that, but the idea of nerfing the marine, putting the Goliath in the game, and forcing me to play those awful snoozefest BW tvt, is not at all appealing to me and I certainly don't consider it a mistake from Blizzard SC2 development team.
Everyone likes different things and there is nothing wrong with that, but the idea of nerfing the marine, putting the Goliath in the game, and forcing me to play those awful snoozefest BW tvt, is not at all appealing to me and I certainly don't consider it a mistake from Blizzard SC2 development team.
I'm not saying that I want every Terran to be forced into playing Mech.
What I am saying is that the SC2 Marine is frankly too strong and too versatile of a unit. It always has been, we've known it always has been since 2010. But despite how too good it is, we can't ever nerf it because unit interactions like Marines vs Banelings and Terran's over reliance on it for anti-air means no matter how the game changes the Marine has to stay the way that it is.
Because of unit interactions like these. We are so limited in what kind of balance tweaks we can actually do without completely breaking certain match ups. When so much of TvZ balance is balanced on the knife's edge interaction of Banelings vs Marines that means that any time either of those units are problematic vs Protoss we have to tear our hair out figuring out an alternative way to handle that problem.
The entire reason I bring up Starcraft's design in these threads is to illustrate the fundamental truth that game design and game balance ARE intrinsicly linked together. Whatever design choices were made 15 years ago by the SC2 team for whatever reason, whether you like them or not, are VERY important choices that still dictate what kind of balance tweaks we can do in today's game. As long as we consider those choices to be set in stone and unchangeable, then our options for how to balance the game today will remain limited.
On October 26 2024 09:42 Vindicare605 wrote: Nebuchad at this point, you're the guy saying Climate Change isn't real while the rest of us are debating the hard decisions that need to be made about what to do about it.
Even PiG in his rant mentions over and over again that Protoss has underlying design problems. It is a fact of life in SC2.
We can either choose to ignore them and engage in this cyclical balancing that we've been doing for the last 14 years or we can talk about them and try and do something about them. It's really that simple.
Trying to pretend like Protoss design isn't problematic doesn't do anyone any favors.
Nebuchad specifically pointed out a point in time where players like herO and Maxpax were able to win, enough for spectators to be satisfied, and without protoss winning every non-top level tournament.
And here you are accusing him of denying climate change? What? Sorry but i have to really just call that out for being so stupid.
Vindicare you bring some good points but you are painting an all-or-nothing picture when they can easily find a middleground. Top level protoss should have more of a chance than currently - back in the days when Trap would make finals for example, those were fine. When they buffed voids then reverted it partially, things were fine.
Btw regarding Protoss having cascading effects in ladder - you forget that ladder already adjusts for racial imbalances, and finds suitable opponents for you. The only part of ladder that might suffer would be GM because there's few players there and you can't adjust for racial imbalance without running out of players to match with.
I think the majority of the scene would prefer GM be protoss heavy and allow top protosses to reach finals more often and win a little more than they currently do. Winning a premier tournament 1 in 10 times would be nice. Not 1 in 20 times.
PvT has suffered too much ever since the stupid Battery Overcharge 100->50% patch + Ravens being cheaper and quicker to make while keeping 11 sec Matrix. And they're going to continue to suffer now. I just feel really sad as a spectator but also for pro Protoss players.
Stop worrying about lower level ladder that already accounts for racial balance. Fix the MU so that pro level is back within 48:52, not 45:55 or 40:60. It's what Blizzard would do.
Look I'm not saying you CAN'T buff Protoss so that they win again. Go ahead and do it. I'm personally more than fine seeing Protoss win for a bit if it means I stop seeing ZvZ mirrors in the final rounds of tournaments.
The reason I am "All or Nothing" on this issue as you put it is because I know what the cycle is and I know how this plays out long term.
Protoss starts winning, Protoss will get nerfed. The cascading effect on ladder that you want to pretend won't happen and doesn't matter WILL happen and WILL matter because to the people that actually play this game it doesn't feel good to lose to the kind of bullshit that allow Protoss to flip a match with a 1k mmr difference to paraphrase PiG.
It's an excercise in futility to keep balancing this way.
We can keep doing it sure, and like I said before, walking back the previous balance council nerfs is something I am very supportive of (which you'd know if you read my posts) i'm just not enthusiastic about it because again I know where it leads.
Can someone dig up the patch notes from 2010 when zealots lost 10 shields because and I quote: "we found 2 gate zealot rushes to be too strong at low levels of play"
On October 30 2024 17:58 Agh wrote: Can someone dig up the patch notes from 2010 when zealots lost 10 shields because and I quote: "we found 2 gate zealot rushes to be too strong at low levels of play"
Would give me quite the chuckle.
lmao. To be fair on Steppes of War and Delta Quadrant I think 2 gate zealot WAS too strong.
God how many stupid balance changes we had to suffer through because of that atrocious early map pool.
On October 30 2024 17:12 Vindicare605 wrote: Look I'm not saying you CAN'T buff Protoss so that they win again. Go ahead and do it. I'm personally more than fine seeing Protoss win for a bit if it means I stop seeing ZvZ mirrors in the final rounds of tournaments.
The reason I am "All or Nothing" on this issue as you put it is because I know what the cycle is and I know how this plays out long term.
Protoss starts winning, Protoss will get nerfed. The cascading effect on ladder that you want to pretend won't happen and doesn't matter WILL happen and WILL matter because to the people that actually play this game it doesn't feel good to lose to the kind of bullshit that allow Protoss to flip a match with a 1k mmr difference to paraphrase PiG.
It's an excercise in futility to keep balancing this way.
We can keep doing it sure, and like I said before, walking back the previous balance council nerfs is something I am very supportive of (which you'd know if you read my posts) i'm just not enthusiastic about it because again I know where it leads.
If you listened to PiG you should also be aware that the finetune changes designed to balance the 0.1% players at the top likely won't have any effect on the majority of playerbase because they aren't good enough to leverage them (25 mineral cost decrease doesn't matter if you float 700 minerals anyway)
Yeah stop worrying about Protoss players Masters and below and fix Protoss for the top 100. You can't have it both.
I mean the overcharge change for example. The old overcharge was click and be done and time to micro your army/ defense. This new overcharge is like warp in HT/ Sentry, load up on energy, get of nice storm/ FF. Until I and probably 90% of Toss players are done with that, the game is probably lost. So even if this change might be considered useful for pro play, it's not for everyone under GM.
On October 30 2024 17:12 Vindicare605 wrote: Look I'm not saying you CAN'T buff Protoss so that they win again. Go ahead and do it. I'm personally more than fine seeing Protoss win for a bit if it means I stop seeing ZvZ mirrors in the final rounds of tournaments.
The reason I am "All or Nothing" on this issue as you put it is because I know what the cycle is and I know how this plays out long term.
Protoss starts winning, Protoss will get nerfed. The cascading effect on ladder that you want to pretend won't happen and doesn't matter WILL happen and WILL matter because to the people that actually play this game it doesn't feel good to lose to the kind of bullshit that allow Protoss to flip a match with a 1k mmr difference to paraphrase PiG.
It's an excercise in futility to keep balancing this way.
We can keep doing it sure, and like I said before, walking back the previous balance council nerfs is something I am very supportive of (which you'd know if you read my posts) i'm just not enthusiastic about it because again I know where it leads.
You don't need to write more posts about it we understood your position. You think it's impossible for the best protoss players to win things unless any average good protoss player also wins things. This is not true, as we can clearly point to periods of the game where herO or Maxpax could win but other protosses couldn't, but you refuse to entertain this. So there's not much more to say.
Of course if your assumption was right then you would be correct. But reality demonstrates that it isn't, and therefore, you're not.
On October 30 2024 22:54 Harris1st wrote: Yeah stop worrying about Protoss players Masters and below and fix Protoss for the top 100. You can't have it both.
I mean the overcharge change for example. The old overcharge was click and be done and time to micro your army/ defense. This new overcharge is like warp in HT/ Sentry, load up on energy, get of nice storm/ FF. Until I and probably 90% of Toss players are done with that, the game is probably lost. So even if this change might be considered useful for pro play, it's not for everyone under GM.
I still think it just doesn’t work, full stop. That’s the problem with this change for me, regardless of level of player. Or should I say changes, I like this idea, but it’s not strong enough to compensate for overcharge being removed.
Templars just aren’t good against dedicated tank pushes/contains that hit when your third is not long being up and running, which is a very common timing in this meta
Templars get zoned, Templars have only a few shots at doing potentially big damage, or they’re a paperweight. Templars can’t damage bunkers.
What we usually see is Protoss attempt to chip away with Collosus, or Disruptors, retreat to batteries, activate overcharge if Terran try to jump on them rather than gradually chipping away at range. And even then, it still breaks Protoss pretty frequently.
There’s synergy and flow issues as well. Robo synergises well with blink stalkers, so opening stalkers you get both the benefits of map control and your next tech stage kind of suits that opener too. You generally want Robo at some stage anyway, even if it’s just for Immortals or observers.
Overcharge in general is more critical in PvT than PvZ, and at the highest level it’s already the former matchup that is the problem. You need the burst shield regeneration to compensate for Terran’s higher DPS
IDK, my intuition is you open up options that don’t really help versus what Toss is already struggling with, and the commensurate removals make it even harder to deal with what Toss is already struggling with
We’ll see how things go in some of these upcoming PTR tournaments, but that would be my vague prediction.
I like energy overcharge, I think it’s an interesting ability but for me it should have just added to Toss’ toolkit, or alternatively in conjunction with a slightly nerfed overcharge.
I worry we’ll see Toss get butchered and we’ll just see a reversal, which I think would be a pity as I’d like to see this energy recharge idea experimented with
On October 30 2024 22:54 Harris1st wrote: Yeah stop worrying about Protoss players Masters and below and fix Protoss for the top 100. You can't have it both.
I mean the overcharge change for example. The old overcharge was click and be done and time to micro your army/ defense. This new overcharge is like warp in HT/ Sentry, load up on energy, get of nice storm/ FF. Until I and probably 90% of Toss players are done with that, the game is probably lost. So even if this change might be considered useful for pro play, it's not for everyone under GM.
I still think it just doesn’t work, full stop. That’s the problem with this change for me, regardless of level of player. Or should I say changes, I like this idea, but it’s not strong enough to compensate for overcharge being removed.
Templars just aren’t good against dedicated tank pushes/contains that hit when your third is not long being up and running, which is a very common timing in this meta
Templars get zoned, Templars have only a few shots at doing potentially big damage, or they’re a paperweight. Templars can’t damage bunkers.
What we usually see is Protoss attempt to chip away with Collosus, or Disruptors, retreat to batteries, activate overcharge if Terran try to jump on them rather than gradually chipping away at range. And even then, it still breaks Protoss pretty frequently.
There’s synergy and flow issues as well. Robo synergises well with blink stalkers, so opening stalkers you get both the benefits of map control and your next tech stage kind of suits that opener too. You generally want Robo at some stage anyway, even if it’s just for Immortals or observers.
Overcharge in general is more critical in PvT than PvZ, and at the highest level it’s already the former matchup that is the problem. You need the burst shield regeneration to compensate for Terran’s higher DPS
IDK, my intuition is you open up options that don’t really help versus what Toss is already struggling with, and the commensurate removals make it even harder to deal with what Toss is already struggling with
We’ll see how things go in some of these upcoming PTR tournaments, but that would be my vague prediction.
I like energy overcharge, I think it’s an interesting ability but for me it should have just added to Toss’ toolkit, or alternatively in conjunction with a slightly nerfed overcharge.
I worry we’ll see Toss get butchered and we’ll just see a reversal, which I think would be a pity as I’d like to see this energy recharge idea experimented with
Or just give Protoss both types of overcharge but share the same cooldown. At least this give them an option to decide what to use
On October 30 2024 22:54 Harris1st wrote: Yeah stop worrying about Protoss players Masters and below and fix Protoss for the top 100. You can't have it both.
I mean the overcharge change for example. The old overcharge was click and be done and time to micro your army/ defense. This new overcharge is like warp in HT/ Sentry, load up on energy, get of nice storm/ FF. Until I and probably 90% of Toss players are done with that, the game is probably lost. So even if this change might be considered useful for pro play, it's not for everyone under GM.
I still think it just doesn’t work, full stop. That’s the problem with this change for me, regardless of level of player. Or should I say changes, I like this idea, but it’s not strong enough to compensate for overcharge being removed.
Templars just aren’t good against dedicated tank pushes/contains that hit when your third is not long being up and running, which is a very common timing in this meta
Templars get zoned, Templars have only a few shots at doing potentially big damage, or they’re a paperweight. Templars can’t damage bunkers.
What we usually see is Protoss attempt to chip away with Collosus, or Disruptors, retreat to batteries, activate overcharge if Terran try to jump on them rather than gradually chipping away at range. And even then, it still breaks Protoss pretty frequently.
There’s synergy and flow issues as well. Robo synergises well with blink stalkers, so opening stalkers you get both the benefits of map control and your next tech stage kind of suits that opener too. You generally want Robo at some stage anyway, even if it’s just for Immortals or observers.
Overcharge in general is more critical in PvT than PvZ, and at the highest level it’s already the former matchup that is the problem. You need the burst shield regeneration to compensate for Terran’s higher DPS
IDK, my intuition is you open up options that don’t really help versus what Toss is already struggling with, and the commensurate removals make it even harder to deal with what Toss is already struggling with
We’ll see how things go in some of these upcoming PTR tournaments, but that would be my vague prediction.
I like energy overcharge, I think it’s an interesting ability but for me it should have just added to Toss’ toolkit, or alternatively in conjunction with a slightly nerfed overcharge.
I worry we’ll see Toss get butchered and we’ll just see a reversal, which I think would be a pity as I’d like to see this energy recharge idea experimented with
Or just give Protoss both types of overcharge but share the same cooldown. At least this give them an option to decide what to use
this "balance" patch is a **** joke, isn't it? I'm usually not ranting publicly, but this? Honestly. What the actual fuck? Reading the toss part I already was scratching my head... Had to stop reading the terran part at the helion change because i couldn't believe it. <Not the helion change itself but the accumulation of all of it so far> Salvagable turrets? Healing your supply depot? A terran's wet dreams I guess. And don't get me started with the liberator. Let's get rid of 0.75 range and give it more than double the area it's covering, shall we? And while we're at it don't forget those servos. I'm pretty much speechless. So I'll let #1 talk for me
"Honestly, these changes are terrible and scatter-brained, but they also don't affect me so... meh?"
On October 31 2024 08:15 CicadaSC wrote: Wish we could get an update from the balance council. Their thoughts on the patches feedback and plan going forward. Or ESL.
We have now reached the point where not only virtually the whole community, nearly every professional caster, and all professional players who have expressly commented upon the patch (so far as I am aware), but also the reigning world champion who himself is a terran are united in their recognition of the necessity to nerf the ghost.
I cannot imagine any excuse on the part of the balance council to fail to acknowledge this any longer.
It's very stupid when the balancing of the game is trusted to those WHO PLAY IT. This changelog makes it obvious. I hope this Balance Council doesn't become a nail in the coffin of our beloved game...
On October 31 2024 08:15 CicadaSC wrote: Wish we could get an update from the balance council. Their thoughts on the patches feedback and plan going forward. Or ESL.
We have now reached the point where not only virtually the whole community, nearly every professional caster, and all professional players who have expressly commented upon the patch (so far as I am aware), but also the reigning world champion who himself is a terran are united in their recognition of the necessity to nerf the ghost.
I cannot imagine any excuse on the part of the balance council to fail to acknowledge this any longer.
we definitely need an update. Just waiting around until a patch happens and see what made it through and what got rolled-back is so not the way. being left in limbo just sucks.
Having played around with the PTR a little, this patch seems like a buff for Cannon rushers. The candidate maps are also better for Cannon rushing than the current maps are. I'm sure printf will be happy.
I will really enjoy to look again stream with these good ideas especially i can t wait to see ultra pushing units.
Hope you will enjoy playing this new patch as i can t definetly return back to SC2 due to fingers problem (but i will continue to look SC2 hoping to see new pro players)
As usually, not so many of you are enought patient, judging negatively before even take a look to games, it seems to be symptomatic in this forum
It s a really protoss oriented patch,i would consider a new nexus spell for early-mid game aiming to teleport small group of units between the range of protoss pylons. i m thinking a developpement team is possibly working to maintain hype for the best rts ever.
On October 31 2024 18:11 Vision_ wrote: It s a really protoss oriented patch, i would consider a new nexus spell for early-mid game aiming to teleport small group of units between the range of protoss pylons.
On October 31 2024 18:11 Vision_ wrote: It s a really protoss oriented patch, i would consider a new nexus spell for early-mid game aiming to teleport small group of units between the range of protoss pylons.
HUH?!
Forget this dumb idea please The thing protoss are so static and have a "time-space" philosophy is like a study case school.
Maybe there s still work to do with the warp gate as it s protoss mecanics this spell could be done with advantages AND counterparts.
Simple ideas are always the best, i would revert the warpgate idea, i.e more cooldown if you teleport units. I m not especially waiting for this change since it should have been done at the release of the game 12 years ago....
On October 31 2024 08:15 CicadaSC wrote: Wish we could get an update from the balance council. Their thoughts on the patches feedback and plan going forward. Or ESL.
We have now reached the point where not only virtually the whole community, nearly every professional caster, and all professional players who have expressly commented upon the patch (so far as I am aware), but also the reigning world champion who himself is a terran are united in their recognition of the necessity to nerf the ghost.
I cannot imagine any excuse on the part of the balance council to fail to acknowledge this any longer.
we definitely need an update. Just waiting around until a patch happens and see what made it through and what got rolled-back is so not the way. being left in limbo just sucks.
I LOVE that Ghost change. That's the perfect nerf I think.
It nerfs the ability for Terran to mass Ghosts, but doesn't nerf the Ghost as an impact spellcaster in a mixed army.
The problem with the Ghost has been how powerful it can be especially vs Zerg when massed. This addresses that specifically while leaving its unit power the same.
-PvP still gonna be a clown fiesta, possibly even more than with the first version of the PTR because of faster stalkers -Ghost nerf is nice but won't impact PvT at all where it's a big issue too -Mothership not being abductable is too strong imo. I also think the current mothership (in the live version of the game, not ptr) is perfectly fine and do not need to be changed. -Immortal/Disruptors still feel like worse versions compared to atm. -They removed the tempest damage point change for some reason, why? It feels like the kind of change that will only benefit very high level Protoss players, it was very nice
Ghost nerf absolutely does nerf Terran in PvT, since 200 maxed out Terran just got hit with a nerf to one of its core units. That makes Terran armies in the late game smaller unless they decide to use fewer Ghosts. Fewer Ghosts = Fewer EMPs.
It's a much bigger nerf to late game TvZ, but it's a nerf to late game PvT as well.
Ghost Transitions/responses in the midgame are hardly affected at all though which is great because the Ghost does need to be effective in those spots.
I would have like to have them play a bit more with the lib change's numbers rather than axe it, I thought it was a nice idea. But I can understand time is off the essence and it wasn't the number 1 priority.
In combination with the new maps that are less terran friendly I am quite confident that protoss is going to be a little too strong now, but I guess we'll see.
On November 01 2024 04:42 Nebuchad wrote: In combination with the new maps that are less terran friendly I am quite confident that protoss is going to be a little too strong now, but I guess we'll see.
They still don’t have overcharge, I’m still unsure how they’re meant to hold various tank pushes
Late to the party here and I guess there isn't really a need for another "This is an outrage!" kinda post......
But anyway, it really does feel like this council has been hard-trolling Protoss for years now. There was a small light in the darkness when they looked into the gg-mines but now it's back to the usual "We wan't to help Protoss a bit" only to find a long list of substantial nerfs. I don't even know what the f is going on anymore but Sc2 will no doubt remain a two-race game at the highest level.
It's really just bizarre at this point
.
Edit: Did they just revert on half of the patch, lol. I like the Ghost change and I'm really curious about the no abduct on MS!
Holy shit Mothership can't be abducted YES!!! And BL and Tempest changes are partially reverted so that they don't become too mobile and microable. They should be committal siege units after all.
Cyclone reverting to old Cyclone... damn it. I mean that version was still potent and helpful for Mech but now Mech early game is less rounded. Mech doesn't have any cheap mineral sink that is very effective vs the other race's T1 tech and now Mech will have a very hard time getting a 3rd in TvP again (and lesser extent TvT and TvZ).
Having the buffed Blue Flame hellions would have been nice to keep some map control vs mass chargelots but they removed that too!! T_T Was that really a big problem?
If you're going to nerf Blue Flame and revert Cyclones, then can't you readjust Hellion damage slightly maybe so that Blue Flame gives +2 to all (+3 vs Light) instead of +5 to Light or something? That way it helps a little vs both ling comps and roach comps and doesn't reduce Zerg's early build order variety. Or increase Blue Flame cost and/or upgrade duration so that Mech still has more potential power, and it becomes more of an investment for Bio to commit to if they're only going to use it for openers.
Would have liked just a small bone somewhere... since nerfing Ghost supply also hurts Mech slightly in TvP. In 5.011 they made it so the Cyclone upgrade gives +10 damage vs all instead of +20 damage vs armored, but I feel this made them less good at the things they were good at. Mech is designed for units to be strong and specialized, similar to Protoss. You need to be tweaking your army comp throughout the game not just rely on all-rounder units. It'd be nice if they buffed the old Cyclone to +10 vs All (+10 vs Armored) for example, or even +5 vs All (+10 vs Armored) or something like that. So that it's more of a buff as it was intended back then.
Feeling a bit defeated but hey at least there's good changes for other races/MUs and Immortal is slightly weaker vs Mech i guess.
Oh i forgot Disruptors won't 1 shot Cyclones now! But i feel the disruptor change is mainly a nerf to them, and not sure if i like it a lot. Disruptors are able to 1-shot Ghosts with a little more AOE now which is nice, but maybe making Ghost Light as well would make us see some more Adept comps (like Astrea showed sometimes) or Phoenix comps and buff the Colossus more. As well as make Terran have to split Ghosts to be safe from Fungal+Banelings, which makes it harder to get tons of snipes off without risk. I feel Disruptor has enough power and people at this point would rather see Colossus a bit more staple again and Disruptors relied on less.
Disruptor design is weird, and nothing can be done to improve a weird unit.
The best idea for disruptor comes from Stormgate and his catapult, it delays the missile which ask some micro management, so it s more interesting than this bullshit design. I know Protoss need some units to maintain distance because of their stalkers and their intense necessity of micro management, but let s be honest i couldn t be hype by controlling any nova even if i never tried.
I like the fact dev team added some GIF to explain their changes, it reminds me the good old times of LotV release
Late to the party here and I guess there isn't really a need for another "This is an outrage!" kinda post......
But anyway, it really does feel like this council has been hard-trolling Protoss for years now. There was a small light in the darkness when they looked into the gg-mines but now it's back to the usual "We wan't to help Protoss a bit" only to find a long list of substantial nerfs. I don't even know what the f is going on anymore but Sc2 will no doubt remain a two-race game at the highest level.
It's really just bizarre at this point
.
Edit: Did they just revert on half of the patch, lol. I like the Ghost change and I'm really curious about the no abduct on MS!
I'm glad they're willing to revert huge chunks of the PTR, that's the right way to go about it and they wouldn't have gotten so much initial backlash if they did that more often or even just said they were willing to
Hello, I have 2 suggestions. Would be nice if you added them to your patch.
1. Units that have abilities with cool-down should have a clock-like animation over their unit icon that shows when they can use their ability again. This should be available in transport ships as well. Would be a lot of help for all players, but especially for lower ranked players.
With the way that creep is managed engine-side, it's not owned by anyone. You can either build on all creep (co-op) or you can't (competitive). It's an unfortunate limitation
I m shocked to see ultralisks have 0 bonus damage against armored. To my mind it s impossible to think about a closed combat unit with 6 supply cost and with no bonus against 66% of units (while you know most of units are also ranged).
A small bonus should be considered here like 35 + 10 (or even +5 with a first test)
I mean since years, patch are adressed to make ultra faster to reach close combat but in 66% case they have not a balanced damage. Even if zerg is a versatile race, would it be easier to balance ultralisks with a small armored bonus than always tweaks on speed ?
Look at ultras pre lotv, they have +vs armoured and they are literally garbage in comparison, but they were still used, makes you think.. The ultra keeps getting unwarranted mini buffs and depending on implementation this one is not small. Being able to click a damaged ultra and move it back through your army could turn out to be absolutely bonkers, mb this was the whole idea, they found it hard to dodge ghost snipes, because their own army was sitting in the way.
On November 12 2024 00:37 ejozl wrote: Look at ultras pre lotv, they have +vs armoured and they are literally garbage in comparison, but they were still used, makes you think.. The ultra keeps getting unwarranted mini buffs and depending on implementation this one is not small. Being able to click a damaged ultra and move it back through your army could turn out to be absolutely bonkers, mb this was the whole idea, they found it hard to dodge ghost snipes, because their own army was sitting in the way.
On November 12 2024 03:01 ejozl wrote: Speed upg, frenzy, 25 mins cheaper, it became smaller as well, and they want it to push things away.
I guess it's not rly overtuned but it doesn't need these silly buffs, it's a perfectly fine unit.
Just make upgrades add +4 which it should've always had since lotv.
It was not a perfectly fine unit lmao. It was clunky as hell, and the "ultras into lose" transition meme did not appear out of nowhere.
Besides, it's not like Zerg is doing well anywhere below top 10 level anyway, so making the clunky stuff a bit nicer is hardly going to hurt.
Exactly. Also, it must be remembered that ultras got a serious speed nerf in the present patch, so that, according to the council, they can more easily be dealt with by marines and marauders. As Artosis has rightly pointed out, this is a questionable approach, because melee units have to be faster than ranged units or else they will simply be kited to death.
Besides, it is ridiculous that one of zerg's T3 units should officially be counterable by terran's T1-1.5 units. Imagine battlecruisers being countered by ling/roach.
On November 12 2024 03:01 ejozl wrote: Speed upg, frenzy, 25 mins cheaper, it became smaller as well, and they want it to push things away.
I guess it's not rly overtuned but it doesn't need these silly buffs, it's a perfectly fine unit.
Just make upgrades add +4 which it should've always had since lotv.
It was not a perfectly fine unit lmao. It was clunky as hell, and the "ultras into lose" transition meme did not appear out of nowhere.
Besides, it's not like Zerg is doing well anywhere below top 10 level anyway, so making the clunky stuff a bit nicer is hardly going to hurt.
Exactly. Also, it must be remembered that ultras got a serious speed nerf in the present patch, so that, according to the council, they can more easily be dealt with by marines and marauders. As Artosis has rightly pointed out, this is a questionable approach, because melee units have to be faster than ranged units or else they will simply be kited to death.
Besides, it is ridiculous that one of zerg's T3 units should officially be counterable by terran's T1-1.5 units. Imagine battlecruisers being countered by ling/roach.
Well, apparently Zergs don't want their T3 units be countered by other tier 3 units either as they rallied for Ghost nerfs. 3 supply Ghosts that need 4 snipes per Ultralisk that are also able to cancel the snipe by running away are hardly adequate to counter Ultras.
So Zergs don't want their ultras be countered by tier 1 units, by tier 2 units or by tier 3 units? One of them has to counter Ultras. If Zergs don't want Ghosts to counter Ultras, the ability needs to be transferred to other units
On November 12 2024 03:01 ejozl wrote: Speed upg, frenzy, 25 mins cheaper, it became smaller as well, and they want it to push things away.
I guess it's not rly overtuned but it doesn't need these silly buffs, it's a perfectly fine unit.
Just make upgrades add +4 which it should've always had since lotv.
It was not a perfectly fine unit lmao. It was clunky as hell, and the "ultras into lose" transition meme did not appear out of nowhere.
Besides, it's not like Zerg is doing well anywhere below top 10 level anyway, so making the clunky stuff a bit nicer is hardly going to hurt.
Exactly. Also, it must be remembered that ultras got a serious speed nerf in the present patch, so that, according to the council, they can more easily be dealt with by marines and marauders. As Artosis has rightly pointed out, this is a questionable approach, because melee units have to be faster than ranged units or else they will simply be kited to death.
Besides, it is ridiculous that one of zerg's T3 units should officially be counterable by terran's T1-1.5 units. Imagine battlecruisers being countered by ling/roach.
Well, apparently Zergs don't want their T3 units be countered by other tier 3 units either as they rallied for Ghost nerfs. 3 supply Ghosts that need 4 snipes per Ultralisk that are also able to cancel the snipe by running away are hardly adequate to counter Ultras.
Ghosts are still an incredibly powerful unit against almost every part of zerg's lategame army compositions, including ultras. It is just that ghosts are now less massable as a catch-all fulfilling a host of roles (combat, snipe, tactical maneuvering, being tanky, forcing detection, EMP) under virtually all circumstances. The ghost nerf is a correction of a blatant imbalance acknowledged by practically every pro who has commented upon it, including the literal world champion who is a terran himself.
So if by counter you mean that the mere presence of ghosts should invalidate the utility of ultras altogether - besides, mind you, that of broodlords as well, while also being strong against nearly everything else - then no, ghosts should not simply "counter" ultras.
Furthermore, there need not and should not be a simple outright counter to everything in the game. The ghost itself is a good example of this. It can be outplayed under the right circumstances, but it is not directly countered by anything in the zerg arsenal.
Ultralisks are used all the time today. But pretending that already viable units are useless is par for the course for Zergs, which is why hydras have been buffed twice since the balance council took over.
The power of the ultra is rly that it's only 1 larvae, hence why it was still used in wings and hots despite the terrible stats.
If there is a problem with the ultra it's only because zerg units have gotten so efficient that they are not starved for larvae. It doesn't help with how easy it is to reach max and split the map. This is also why ghosts are "imba", solely due to the fact that you reach maxed scenario all of the time in tvz, which was never the intention of the original sc1. Then we have all the supply increases simply making it easier to reach. The game becomes so boring like this, who here remembers wol and hots late game army sizes? It actually felt epic, whereas now half of your supply is bound up in workers, and the other in units to do a little dance of eeking out efficiency.
I would have really liked to see SC2 increase its supply cap from 200 to ~225. (Not 250, that's too much.) Just seems logical because high worker counts is more standard in LotV after the economy changes. Also, because supply costs are slightly higher in SC2 than SC1.
I think it could help improve gameplay for SC2. Many units or comps may lose efficiency if the deathball gets too big. It gets hard to have all your units shoot and jamming them through chokes becomes more difficult. So I think that in most cases, the extra 25 supply would lead to a 2ndary army becoming more common (we see this sometimes still), and more small skirmishes around the map.
It might feel like SC2 "deathball" problem is still too prevalent. But everything is relative. Perhaps if we allowed for a little more supply, we'd have more army supply doing things elsewhere. And the "big deathball" we saw ends up feeling less deathball-y relatively.
I also think that positional styles and fortified positions, like Mech, could become more viable. They would still be weaker in the early game as they are now, but they might have a point in the lategame where it becomes significantly more powerful than a non-mech comp. It becomes harder to jam 1 big deathball into a deeply entrenched tankline with turrets and AA. And if you separate your army in 2 to try to split the mech army up, there's enough supply in the mech army for you to split your tanks up while still having dense enough dps to be efficient.
Also, it would allow for even more variety and individuality when it comes to how much you invest into econ vs tech vs army. Maybe seeing 100 worker styles will be slightly more common/viable, and there'd be a bigger contrast to for example Terran on 40 workers with MULEs and a huge army.
25 more max supply isn't a huge enough difference to break things, but those ~10 extra units would still have a noticeable impact on gameplay.
On November 12 2024 03:01 ejozl wrote: Speed upg, frenzy, 25 mins cheaper, it became smaller as well, and they want it to push things away.
I guess it's not rly overtuned but it doesn't need these silly buffs, it's a perfectly fine unit.
Just make upgrades add +4 which it should've always had since lotv.
It was not a perfectly fine unit lmao. It was clunky as hell, and the "ultras into lose" transition meme did not appear out of nowhere.
Besides, it's not like Zerg is doing well anywhere below top 10 level anyway, so making the clunky stuff a bit nicer is hardly going to hurt.
Exactly. Also, it must be remembered that ultras got a serious speed nerf in the present patch, so that, according to the council, they can more easily be dealt with by marines and marauders. As Artosis has rightly pointed out, this is a questionable approach, because melee units have to be faster than ranged units or else they will simply be kited to death.
Besides, it is ridiculous that one of zerg's T3 units should officially be counterable by terran's T1-1.5 units. Imagine battlecruisers being countered by ling/roach.
Well, apparently Zergs don't want their T3 units be countered by other tier 3 units either as they rallied for Ghost nerfs. 3 supply Ghosts that need 4 snipes per Ultralisk that are also able to cancel the snipe by running away are hardly adequate to counter Ultras.
So if by counter you mean that the mere presence of ghosts should invalidate the utility of ultras altogether - besides, mind you, that of broodlords as well, while also being strong against nearly everything else - then no, ghosts should not simply "counter" ultras.
.
Stop with the hyperbole, we both know that this was never the case. Ultras were still continously built in ZvT lategame, even against a terran massing Ghost. If Ghosts do the job of countering Ultras worse, this ability needs to be transferred over to other units. I get your point that it's bad design when Ghosts also counter every other Zerg unit, but nerfing them means they are worse against Ultras which means other terran units need to do their job as Ultra counters better
Furthermore, there need not and should not be a simple outright counter to everything in the game. The ghost itself is a good example of this. It can be outplayed under the right circumstances, but it is not directly countered by anything in the zerg arsenal.
This is a good point but it only really works for micro units like spellcasters. A pure amove unit like the Ultra leaves little room to outplay it if no unit directly counters it
In my ideal world we go to 300 supply and make overlords give 6 supply, just to tax the cost of raising the supply. The way we start with more supply in lotv due to 12 worker start also better allows for this. You in general make fewer pylons in lotv because of the extra supply from nexus, and it takes away the protoss ability to spot and be on the map, for terrans to wall off with depots and for zerg to scout with overies on the map.
I think it'd be easier to just lower the mineral fields to 6 on exterior bases though and it would do the same job. It will make mules stronger though in comparison to inject and chrono, though that mightn't be a bad thing.
On November 12 2024 03:01 ejozl wrote: Speed upg, frenzy, 25 mins cheaper, it became smaller as well, and they want it to push things away.
I guess it's not rly overtuned but it doesn't need these silly buffs, it's a perfectly fine unit.
Just make upgrades add +4 which it should've always had since lotv.
It was not a perfectly fine unit lmao. It was clunky as hell, and the "ultras into lose" transition meme did not appear out of nowhere.
Besides, it's not like Zerg is doing well anywhere below top 10 level anyway, so making the clunky stuff a bit nicer is hardly going to hurt.
Exactly. Also, it must be remembered that ultras got a serious speed nerf in the present patch, so that, according to the council, they can more easily be dealt with by marines and marauders. As Artosis has rightly pointed out, this is a questionable approach, because melee units have to be faster than ranged units or else they will simply be kited to death.
Besides, it is ridiculous that one of zerg's T3 units should officially be counterable by terran's T1-1.5 units. Imagine battlecruisers being countered by ling/roach.
Well, apparently Zergs don't want their T3 units be countered by other tier 3 units either as they rallied for Ghost nerfs. 3 supply Ghosts that need 4 snipes per Ultralisk that are also able to cancel the snipe by running away are hardly adequate to counter Ultras.
So if by counter you mean that the mere presence of ghosts should invalidate the utility of ultras altogether - besides, mind you, that of broodlords as well, while also being strong against nearly everything else - then no, ghosts should not simply "counter" ultras.
Furthermore, there need not and should not be a simple outright counter to everything in the game. The ghost itself is a good example of this. It can be outplayed under the right circumstances, but it is not directly countered by anything in the zerg arsenal.
A pure amove unit like the Ultra leaves little room to outplay it if no unit directly counters it
This is very obviously false.
A-move melee units and in particular large and clunky a-move melee units like the ultralisk can be outplayed in numerous ways, as you know very well. You can use terrain features, you can create chokes using sim city, planetaries, turrets, autoturrets, or any other sort of physical obstacles, you can use drop micro, you can use air units, you can kite, and so on. All of these things happen all of the time in actual matches. There is in fact hardly a unit type in SC2 which can be outplayed more easily than large melee units like the ultralisk, and this is ignoring the availability of snipe.
I'm not saying another change to the ultra is needed right now (I have seen little impactful ultra play on the new patch), but this argument is just wrong.
On November 12 2024 03:01 ejozl wrote: Speed upg, frenzy, 25 mins cheaper, it became smaller as well, and they want it to push things away.
I guess it's not rly overtuned but it doesn't need these silly buffs, it's a perfectly fine unit.
Just make upgrades add +4 which it should've always had since lotv.
It was not a perfectly fine unit lmao. It was clunky as hell, and the "ultras into lose" transition meme did not appear out of nowhere.
Besides, it's not like Zerg is doing well anywhere below top 10 level anyway, so making the clunky stuff a bit nicer is hardly going to hurt.
Exactly. Also, it must be remembered that ultras got a serious speed nerf in the present patch, so that, according to the council, they can more easily be dealt with by marines and marauders. As Artosis has rightly pointed out, this is a questionable approach, because melee units have to be faster than ranged units or else they will simply be kited to death.
Besides, it is ridiculous that one of zerg's T3 units should officially be counterable by terran's T1-1.5 units. Imagine battlecruisers being countered by ling/roach.
Well, apparently Zergs don't want their T3 units be countered by other tier 3 units either as they rallied for Ghost nerfs. 3 supply Ghosts that need 4 snipes per Ultralisk that are also able to cancel the snipe by running away are hardly adequate to counter Ultras.
So if by counter you mean that the mere presence of ghosts should invalidate the utility of ultras altogether - besides, mind you, that of broodlords as well, while also being strong against nearly everything else - then no, ghosts should not simply "counter" ultras.
Furthermore, there need not and should not be a simple outright counter to everything in the game. The ghost itself is a good example of this. It can be outplayed under the right circumstances, but it is not directly countered by anything in the zerg arsenal.
A pure amove unit like the Ultra leaves little room to outplay it if no unit directly counters it
This is very obviously false.
A-move melee units and in particular large and clunky a-move melee units like the ultralisk can be outplayed in numerous ways, as you know very well. You can use terrain features, you can create chokes using sim city, planetaries, turrets, autoturrets, or any other sort of physical obstacles, you can use drop micro, you can use air units, you can kite, and so on. All of these things happen all of the time in actual matches. There is in fact hardly a unit type in SC2 which can be outplayed more easily than large melee units like the ultralisk, and this is ignoring the availability of snipe.
I'm not saying another change to the ultra is needed right now (I have seen little impactful ultra play on the new patch), but this argument is just wrong.
Sure, that is if Zerg only use Ultra, thats why they have Banes to clean up the structure, Corruptor to chase the air units and Viper/Infestor to deal with seige units. And if you dont fight Zerg on open area, aka moving the units out, you end up having to go fully turtling against Zerg that taking 2 more bases at the very least. I would like to see a tournament where you take away Ghost from Terran and Lurker from Zerg and see who would win late game more consistently.
Haven’t played for some time (one month). The priority of Lurkers aren’t set up with the Ravengers. Eg cant burrow lurkers with ravengers on hotkey. When did that happend?
On November 12 2024 03:01 ejozl wrote: Speed upg, frenzy, 25 mins cheaper, it became smaller as well, and they want it to push things away.
I guess it's not rly overtuned but it doesn't need these silly buffs, it's a perfectly fine unit.
Just make upgrades add +4 which it should've always had since lotv.
It was not a perfectly fine unit lmao. It was clunky as hell, and the "ultras into lose" transition meme did not appear out of nowhere.
Besides, it's not like Zerg is doing well anywhere below top 10 level anyway, so making the clunky stuff a bit nicer is hardly going to hurt.
Exactly. Also, it must be remembered that ultras got a serious speed nerf in the present patch, so that, according to the council, they can more easily be dealt with by marines and marauders. As Artosis has rightly pointed out, this is a questionable approach, because melee units have to be faster than ranged units or else they will simply be kited to death.
Besides, it is ridiculous that one of zerg's T3 units should officially be counterable by terran's T1-1.5 units. Imagine battlecruisers being countered by ling/roach.
Well, apparently Zergs don't want their T3 units be countered by other tier 3 units either as they rallied for Ghost nerfs. 3 supply Ghosts that need 4 snipes per Ultralisk that are also able to cancel the snipe by running away are hardly adequate to counter Ultras.
So if by counter you mean that the mere presence of ghosts should invalidate the utility of ultras altogether - besides, mind you, that of broodlords as well, while also being strong against nearly everything else - then no, ghosts should not simply "counter" ultras.
Furthermore, there need not and should not be a simple outright counter to everything in the game. The ghost itself is a good example of this. It can be outplayed under the right circumstances, but it is not directly countered by anything in the zerg arsenal.
A pure amove unit like the Ultra leaves little room to outplay it if no unit directly counters it
This is very obviously false.
A-move melee units and in particular large and clunky a-move melee units like the ultralisk can be outplayed in numerous ways, as you know very well. You can use terrain features, you can create chokes using sim city, planetaries, turrets, autoturrets, or any other sort of physical obstacles, you can use drop micro, you can use air units, you can kite, and so on. All of these things happen all of the time in actual matches. There is in fact hardly a unit type in SC2 which can be outplayed more easily than large melee units like the ultralisk, and this is ignoring the availability of snipe.
I'm not saying another change to the ultra is needed right now (I have seen little impactful ultra play on the new patch), but this argument is just wrong.
This is in the current state of the game where there are clear direct counters to the Ultra. If Ghosts and Marauders don't adquately fill that role anymore it will be hard to outplay Ultras. Fighting in chokes is already factored in when saying Ghosts and Marauders counter Ultras as on open field with a surround they obliterate both. If Ghosts and Marauders can't be called a direct counter to Ultras anymore it means we're in a situation like when we had 8 armor Ultras vs split attack Marauders and fighting in chokes didn't make the Marauders kill the Ultras back then. Also because there's barely any micro involved from the Zerg side there can't be a 'dance' like with Ghosts where both sides try to outplay each other
On November 12 2024 03:01 ejozl wrote: Speed upg, frenzy, 25 mins cheaper, it became smaller as well, and they want it to push things away.
I guess it's not rly overtuned but it doesn't need these silly buffs, it's a perfectly fine unit.
Just make upgrades add +4 which it should've always had since lotv.
It was not a perfectly fine unit lmao. It was clunky as hell, and the "ultras into lose" transition meme did not appear out of nowhere.
Besides, it's not like Zerg is doing well anywhere below top 10 level anyway, so making the clunky stuff a bit nicer is hardly going to hurt.
Exactly. Also, it must be remembered that ultras got a serious speed nerf in the present patch, so that, according to the council, they can more easily be dealt with by marines and marauders. As Artosis has rightly pointed out, this is a questionable approach, because melee units have to be faster than ranged units or else they will simply be kited to death.
Besides, it is ridiculous that one of zerg's T3 units should officially be counterable by terran's T1-1.5 units. Imagine battlecruisers being countered by ling/roach.
Well, apparently Zergs don't want their T3 units be countered by other tier 3 units either as they rallied for Ghost nerfs. 3 supply Ghosts that need 4 snipes per Ultralisk that are also able to cancel the snipe by running away are hardly adequate to counter Ultras.
So if by counter you mean that the mere presence of ghosts should invalidate the utility of ultras altogether - besides, mind you, that of broodlords as well, while also being strong against nearly everything else - then no, ghosts should not simply "counter" ultras.
Furthermore, there need not and should not be a simple outright counter to everything in the game. The ghost itself is a good example of this. It can be outplayed under the right circumstances, but it is not directly countered by anything in the zerg arsenal.
A pure amove unit like the Ultra leaves little room to outplay it if no unit directly counters it
This is very obviously false.
A-move melee units and in particular large and clunky a-move melee units like the ultralisk can be outplayed in numerous ways, as you know very well. You can use terrain features, you can create chokes using sim city, planetaries, turrets, autoturrets, or any other sort of physical obstacles, you can use drop micro, you can use air units, you can kite, and so on. All of these things happen all of the time in actual matches. There is in fact hardly a unit type in SC2 which can be outplayed more easily than large melee units like the ultralisk, and this is ignoring the availability of snipe.
I'm not saying another change to the ultra is needed right now (I have seen little impactful ultra play on the new patch), but this argument is just wrong.
This is in the current state of the game where...
I reponded to your assertion that a "pure amove unit like the Ultra leaves little room to outplay it if no unit directly counters it", which is just false. Indeed, there is hardly a single type of unit that can be outplayed more easily and in more ways than a clunky a-move melee unit like the ultralisk (what type of unit would that be? Ranged? Air? Caster?). That's what I pointed out.
The question of whether or not the overall power level of the ultralisk is appropriate in the given meta is a different matter. Of course I agree that terrans need to have a response to ultras but from what I've seen on the new patch, there's no reason to think that ultras are now an extraordinary threat to terrans even with 3 supply ghosts. Actually most pros (at least the Koreas zergs) still seem to prefer lurkers over ultras. Ultras now being kiteable to death by bio, which was my original complaint cited from Artosis, may have its share in this.
That said, I do agree that making specific terran units (though in my view not T1-1.5 units) stronger against the ultralisk would be acceptable if it meant reducing the insane versatility of the ghost. Even on the new patch the ghost is still the counter to zerg's entire lategame arsenal, except that now terran has less other units because of the increased supply, which is not satisfactory either. As far as I see, the recent feedback by the pros has been along similar lines.
On November 12 2024 03:01 ejozl wrote: Speed upg, frenzy, 25 mins cheaper, it became smaller as well, and they want it to push things away.
I guess it's not rly overtuned but it doesn't need these silly buffs, it's a perfectly fine unit.
Just make upgrades add +4 which it should've always had since lotv.
It was not a perfectly fine unit lmao. It was clunky as hell, and the "ultras into lose" transition meme did not appear out of nowhere.
Besides, it's not like Zerg is doing well anywhere below top 10 level anyway, so making the clunky stuff a bit nicer is hardly going to hurt.
Exactly. Also, it must be remembered that ultras got a serious speed nerf in the present patch, so that, according to the council, they can more easily be dealt with by marines and marauders. As Artosis has rightly pointed out, this is a questionable approach, because melee units have to be faster than ranged units or else they will simply be kited to death.
Besides, it is ridiculous that one of zerg's T3 units should officially be counterable by terran's T1-1.5 units. Imagine battlecruisers being countered by ling/roach.
Well, apparently Zergs don't want their T3 units be countered by other tier 3 units either as they rallied for Ghost nerfs. 3 supply Ghosts that need 4 snipes per Ultralisk that are also able to cancel the snipe by running away are hardly adequate to counter Ultras.
So if by counter you mean that the mere presence of ghosts should invalidate the utility of ultras altogether - besides, mind you, that of broodlords as well, while also being strong against nearly everything else - then no, ghosts should not simply "counter" ultras.
Furthermore, there need not and should not be a simple outright counter to everything in the game. The ghost itself is a good example of this. It can be outplayed under the right circumstances, but it is not directly countered by anything in the zerg arsenal.
A pure amove unit like the Ultra leaves little room to outplay it if no unit directly counters it
This is very obviously false.
A-move melee units and in particular large and clunky a-move melee units like the ultralisk can be outplayed in numerous ways, as you know very well. You can use terrain features, you can create chokes using sim city, planetaries, turrets, autoturrets, or any other sort of physical obstacles, you can use drop micro, you can use air units, you can kite, and so on. All of these things happen all of the time in actual matches. There is in fact hardly a unit type in SC2 which can be outplayed more easily than large melee units like the ultralisk, and this is ignoring the availability of snipe.
I'm not saying another change to the ultra is needed right now (I have seen little impactful ultra play on the new patch), but this argument is just wrong.
This is in the current state of the game where...
I reponded to your assertion that a "pure amove unit like the Ultra leaves little room to outplay it if no unit directly counters it", which is just false. Indeed, there is hardly a single type of unit that can be outplayed more easily and in more ways than a clunky a-move melee unit like the ultralisk (what type of unit would that be? Ranged? Air? Caster?). That's what I pointed out.
The question of whether or not the overall power level of the ultralisk is appropriate in the given meta is a different matter. Of course I agree that terrans need to have a response to ultras but from what I've seen on the new patch, there's no reason to think that ultras are now an extraordinary threat to terrans even with 3 supply ghosts. Actually most pros (at least the Koreas zergs) still seem to prefer lurkers over ultras. Ultras now being kiteable to death by bio, which was my original complaint cited from Artosis, may have its share in this.
That said, I do agree that making specific terran units (though in my view not T1-1.5 units) stronger against the ultralisk would be acceptable if it meant reducing the insane versatility of the ghost. Even on the new patch the ghost is still the counter to zerg's entire lategame arsenal, except that now terran has less other units because of the increased supply, which is not satisfactory either. As far as I see, the recent feedback by the pros has been along similar lines.
I think it s too soon to claim that ghost isn t impacting ultralisks strength even at pro level. Ultralisks have been buffed while casual players would have been thanksfull of not improving their strength. I love ultralisks function in the meta for the simple reason they need a ton of ressources but if protoss or terran aren t well prepared to the switch, it can be deadly. That s said, if you start to nerf ghost AND forteress then the balance could be impacted so wait and see.
Obviously there s only the addition of new ability that can help to make this unit more situational as they tried to add "a rush tunnel ability" which one seems really interessant in term of gameplay (some years ago). To me the game has really tight and extreme interaction, but lack of "progressive effect", for example :
Viper grab every units to the same distance independant from their weight Ultralisks are immunized to marauders concussive (while it could be a percentage) Disruptor, banelings AOE have flat damage without a reduction proportional of the distance Etc Etc
It s the charm of SC2 and it s also a part of his singularity, that s the main reason why the community need a "PTR LAB" because they would have a support for discussing of all those change during one year until the next patch. I m actually trying to make a first PTR LAB which concerns mainly the disruptor design, i have no real reason to do that except my hate for the disruptor design. Same for Infested terrans, they have been removed while they added fun gameplay !!! 12 workers is now part of the game and integrated to the meta but it also exist a way for replace it without impacting the game speed at start (in adding 9th minerals fields with very few amount, to compensate the reduction from 12 to 9 workers until the mid game. By speaking of those ideas, even if i think they are great, i can t be sure of the reaction of community and pros but i would really enjoy to look at reactions in suggesting variation of the actual sc2 (in the case of existing members which want to product content for this PTR LAB)
With time those PTR LAB number one, two, three .... could be grouped to one mod which allow you to select changes before playing. It asks professional support but it s a start
Concerning ultralisks, a simple answer is to add a 50% HP barrier, above that ultralisks become frenzy.
On November 12 2024 03:01 ejozl wrote: Speed upg, frenzy, 25 mins cheaper, it became smaller as well, and they want it to push things away.
I guess it's not rly overtuned but it doesn't need these silly buffs, it's a perfectly fine unit.
Just make upgrades add +4 which it should've always had since lotv.
It was not a perfectly fine unit lmao. It was clunky as hell, and the "ultras into lose" transition meme did not appear out of nowhere.
Besides, it's not like Zerg is doing well anywhere below top 10 level anyway, so making the clunky stuff a bit nicer is hardly going to hurt.
Exactly. Also, it must be remembered that ultras got a serious speed nerf in the present patch, so that, according to the council, they can more easily be dealt with by marines and marauders. As Artosis has rightly pointed out, this is a questionable approach, because melee units have to be faster than ranged units or else they will simply be kited to death.
Besides, it is ridiculous that one of zerg's T3 units should officially be counterable by terran's T1-1.5 units. Imagine battlecruisers being countered by ling/roach.
Well, apparently Zergs don't want their T3 units be countered by other tier 3 units either as they rallied for Ghost nerfs. 3 supply Ghosts that need 4 snipes per Ultralisk that are also able to cancel the snipe by running away are hardly adequate to counter Ultras.
So if by counter you mean that the mere presence of ghosts should invalidate the utility of ultras altogether - besides, mind you, that of broodlords as well, while also being strong against nearly everything else - then no, ghosts should not simply "counter" ultras.
Furthermore, there need not and should not be a simple outright counter to everything in the game. The ghost itself is a good example of this. It can be outplayed under the right circumstances, but it is not directly countered by anything in the zerg arsenal.
A pure amove unit like the Ultra leaves little room to outplay it if no unit directly counters it
This is very obviously false.
A-move melee units and in particular large and clunky a-move melee units like the ultralisk can be outplayed in numerous ways, as you know very well. You can use terrain features, you can create chokes using sim city, planetaries, turrets, autoturrets, or any other sort of physical obstacles, you can use drop micro, you can use air units, you can kite, and so on. All of these things happen all of the time in actual matches. There is in fact hardly a unit type in SC2 which can be outplayed more easily than large melee units like the ultralisk, and this is ignoring the availability of snipe.
I'm not saying another change to the ultra is needed right now (I have seen little impactful ultra play on the new patch), but this argument is just wrong.
This is in the current state of the game where...
I reponded to your assertion that a "pure amove unit like the Ultra leaves little room to outplay it if no unit directly counters it", which is just false. Indeed, there is hardly a single type of unit that can be outplayed more easily and in more ways than a clunky a-move melee unit like the ultralisk (what type of unit would that be? Ranged? Air? Caster?). That's what I pointed out.
The question of whether or not the overall power level of the ultralisk is appropriate in the given meta is a different matter. Of course I agree that terrans need to have a response to ultras but from what I've seen on the new patch, there's no reason to think that ultras are now an extraordinary threat to terrans even with 3 supply ghosts. Actually most pros (at least the Koreas zergs) still seem to prefer lurkers over ultras. Ultras now being kiteable to death by bio, which was my original complaint cited from Artosis, may have its share in this.
That said, I do agree that making specific terran units (though in my view not T1-1.5 units) stronger against the ultralisk would be acceptable if it meant reducing the insane versatility of the ghost. Even on the new patch the ghost is still the counter to zerg's entire lategame arsenal, except that now terran has less other units because of the increased supply, which is not satisfactory either. As far as I see, the recent feedback by the pros has been along similar lines.
I think we're talking past each other.
My quote was "a pure amove unit like the Ultra leaves little room to outplay it if no unit directly counters it"
"If no unit directly counters it" means we're not talking about the current state of the game where Ultras has direct counters. Imagine a world in which Ghosts and Marauders are nerfed far enough that they can't be considered an Ultra counter anymore and tell me how terran would counter Ultras in that scenario.
That is why terran needs direct counters to the Ultralisk
New EMP radius : Remove 100 shield points inside 0.75 radius Remove 50 shield points in the upper radius (0.75 - 1.5)
The nerf of ghost in the PTR isn t efficient against protoss because you only need 4 or 5 ghosts to remove all shield army; so they should also directly tweak the EMP spell. But the supply cost change is good for TvZ
they need to just drop a patch. i was excited when they announced the PTR to play the game again and i've already lost interest. if they want people to play then just release a patch. doesn't matter if it's bad lol. vast majority of people just want the shit to be fresh, it's a small minority (including pros) who are fixated on this idea of "perfect top level balance." nobody cares about that when there's no major tournaments. just update the game
On November 24 2024 00:39 shikadisoda wrote: they need to just drop a patch. i was excited when they announced the PTR to play the game again and i've already lost interest. if they want people to play then just release a patch. doesn't matter if it's bad lol. vast majority of people just want the shit to be fresh, it's a small minority (including pros) who are fixated on this idea of "perfect top level balance." nobody cares about that when there's no major tournaments. just update the game
Only because the balance is at its worst ever, is it a good time to do crazy changes, but ofc I i have little faith in the cabal, so I'd rather they just leave the game alone, I guess. I don't like change for change's sake because it means that you would do a bad change just to light a spark. We should remember that this will be one of those evergreen games that we will return to in 20 years time, so no, I don't want to sacrifice the future for the now, it should be the other way round.
As for the EMP, I think it should just do flat 60 damage to shields, but it should also fully deplete a unit's energy, not just 100. I don't even like the supply nerf on the Ghost.
On November 26 2024 03:17 ejozl wrote: Only because the balance is at its worst ever, is it a good time to do crazy changes, but ofc I i have little faith in the cabal, so I'd rather they just leave the game alone, I guess. I don't like change for change's sake because it means that you would do a bad change just to light a spark. We should remember that this will be one of those evergreen games that we will return to in 20 years time, so no, I don't want to sacrifice the future for the now, it should be the other way round.
As for the EMP, I think it should just do flat 60 damage to shields, but it should also fully deplete a unit's energy, not just 100. I don't even like the supply nerf on the Ghost.
Yes it comes to the same thing, i don t mind about the amount of point shield, i set 50 as i would set 25 whatever..
I don t want to talk about council members as i have absolutely no clue on what s going on in this "cabal" as you say.
Speaking of the game, i would say supply cost from 2 to 3 impact TvZ while EMP tweak could be more necessary against protoss. Actually i support a nerf of ghost supply cost and EMP because the instant flat damage is too much.
I have another problem with the "blinding cloud". (Cure vs SHIN, wardiTV november on El Dorado). Cure is playing the low style eco and even if he s well prepared, SHIN make 2 or 3 vipers then can cover 4 or 6 blinding cloud because the spell cost 100 mana. I think the spell is interessant but the cloud could be bigger and mana cost set to 125 (you can still blinding cloud + abduct for 200 mana). Check the game if you have time, to me it s a good example of what is on the edge between pro and master players.
I agree it sucked for Mutas, but it was a nice small small way to compensate for Cyclones being reverted / Mech back to being in a pretty hopeless state TvP.
At least they threw a bone saying they see potential in adjusting the Thor in the future.
I'm worried about Tempest strength vs Massive. They should nerf the +Massive damage by 10% or so so maxed out armies don't wreck BCs/BLs too easily. But who cares if it's not a scenario they see often...
And oh, of course the nerfs of Battery Overcharge - and now removal - and the weakness it leaves to Terran early pushes still haven't been fully rectified. I won't be surprised if next patch they nerf Protoss early game vs Terran even more and then we go through the whole "let's wait and see" thing again.
At least the Shield Battery buff is a nice idea. It's very small but nice. Batteries can be built ins lightly safer positions out of reach of Tanks/biles potentially.
I'm happy they remembered to revert MS size to what it was before. Cus I forgot. Props to them. I'm happy ultra size is back too, makes sense with the push priority now. Maybe we can buff Thor movespeed slightly and increase its size too :D
What if Ultra ignore bonus damage against armored ? (balanced with hit points reduction)
Ultra looks really hard to counter if you have only marines or zealots (zerglings would be a joke)
In adding this ability to ignore armored bonus damage, ultra will gain the ease to reach the frontline; in fact it might create a new spot in the late game interactions between units. the imba part is the risk to make ultra stronger against units with low range like roachs and hellbats, but against roachs a small armored bonus can be added (35 to 25 + 15 against armored) and hellbats would benefit of a reduction damage because they are light armored (as zealots). I m not sure of this idea, i just share it for looking at reactions.
This kind of idea is really more difficult to balance compare to some design tweak like force field being a bit more resistant against biles or abduct only affect massive units by half of the distance. Because you have to check with balance tester every interactions, i would need a little bit help for this kind of tests.
PS : note that armored tag is balanced by increasing hit points units (original idea of blizzard)
EPT
its beautiful
![[image loading]](https://i.ibb.co/4Tf7TvH/ghost-tweak.jpg)
