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On October 23 2024 03:41 CicadaSC wrote:
What do you guys think of how OP protoss scouting could be now? Remember when protoss used to open Adept -> Sentry vs Terran? Now if you do that you can overcharge your sentry immediately and Hallucinated scout and then you'll have another Scout up at the old timing as well. You will never have to be caught off guard again. Then in mid game you can warp in Templar as soon as Templar Archives finishes, overcharge a Templar, then once ur research is finished you can overcharge again and have 2 extra storms. Now, this is a lot of Nexus energy to do all this. 1 less Chrono boost early, and 2 less Chrono boosts later on, but if you consider you would typically be banking or having to use 1-2 overcharges by the time your Templar were ready and finished before to survive through timings it's not *terrible* but I do think the Overcharge Energy cost should be reduced slightly. With the 60 second cooldown it already guarantees you can't just spam it.
I think that sounds quite promising (not sarcasm) but I also think that the attacks that will be boosted by the lack of overcharge might come too soon for it to matter.
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Northern Ireland25507 Posts
On October 23 2024 03:41 CicadaSC wrote:
What do you guys think of how OP protoss scouting could be now? Remember when protoss used to open Adept -> Sentry vs Terran? Now if you do that you can overcharge your sentry immediately and Hallucinated scout and then you'll have another Scout up at the old timing as well. You will never have to be caught off guard again. Then in mid game you can warp in Templar as soon as Templar Archives finishes, overcharge a Templar, then once ur research is finished you can overcharge again and have 2 extra storms. Now, this is a lot of Nexus energy to do all this. 1 less Chrono boost early, and 2 less Chrono boosts later on, but if you consider you would typically be banking or having to use 1-2 overcharges by the time your Templar were ready and finished before to survive through timings it's not *terrible* but I do think the Overcharge Energy cost should be reduced slightly. With the 60 second cooldown it already guarantees you can't just spam it.
I think you might just die anyway, at least in TvP. Toss struggle to get temps out in time to stop a few particularly fiendish pushes as it is, it’s why they’re (mostly) rushing out a Collosus and relying on overcharge
And overcharge is way, way more important (at times) in PvT because you need that burst heal to compensate for T’s huge burst damage. Versus Zerg multiple regular batteries can often do a good enough job
PvZ, I think is much more promising for a variety of reasons. Some of their committed pushes swing from relatively trivial for a top pro to stop or they see it, to very difficult indeed if you don’t. Extra halluc, nice.
I think what also makes this change nice is Oracles with extra energy. This gives them extra offensive potential, they can keep tabs on things scouting wise and potentially do more damage too.
And in a defensive capacity Oracles are very good damage output against pre-hydra Zerg timings in a way they just aren’t against the race that has marines.
Here’s my worry, taking away overcharge at the same time entirely (versus perhaps a nerf).
Protoss may end up being dumpstered so hard that they just revert the overcharge change, without giving the community time to see the potential of the energy boost ability. And I think there is potential and interesting dynamics here. I’ve always liked the idea of juggling chrono priorities versus banking energy for other uses and the risk-reward there
Also given it was announced on my birthday, I hereby declare this WombaT’s patch, so it better not be shit
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On October 22 2024 21:52 Nebuchad wrote:
So, people are probably going to die to bio and roach pushes before we get to that point of the game anyway but this thread is sleeping a little bit on the energy overcharge I reckon. Getting to supercharge templars is not insignificant at all.
It has a 1 minute global cooldown apparently, and it costs 50 nexus energy to replenish 100 unit energy.
I don't think it's good.
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It's 2025 almost. Just leave the game alone lol. Salvaging turrets and sensors? Stim pack for hydras? Wtf. Unecessary bloat. Way to kill a game further. This is why SC2 will never be popular in Korea unlike BW.
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Canada8989 Posts
On October 23 2024 03:41 CicadaSC wrote:
What do you guys think of how OP protoss scouting could be now? Remember when protoss used to open Adept -> Sentry vs Terran? Now if you do that you can overcharge your sentry immediately and Hallucinated scout and then you'll have another Scout up at the old timing as well. You will never have to be caught off guard again. Then in mid game you can warp in Templar as soon as Templar Archives finishes, overcharge a Templar, then once ur research is finished you can overcharge again and have 2 extra storms. Now, this is a lot of Nexus energy to do all this. 1 less Chrono boost early, and 2 less Chrono boosts later on, but if you consider you would typically be banking or having to use 1-2 overcharges by the time your Templar were ready and finished before to survive through timings it's not *terrible* but I do think the Overcharge Energy cost should be reduced slightly. With the 60 second cooldown it already guarantees you can't just spam it.
My gut feeling is that the initial sentry scout wouldn't be worth cutting the chrono. It's probably not early enough to completely cover a probe scout and if your are facing an agressive set up you probably need your chrono and if it's a macro set up you are just behind.
I could imagine some clever stuff with the oracle or pheonix/oracle builds.
On October 23 2024 04:35 outscar wrote:
It's 2025 almost. Just leave the game alone lol. Salvaging turrets and sensors? Stim pack for hydras? Wtf. Unecessary bloat. Way to kill a game further. This is why SC2 will never be popular in Korea unlike BW.
It's almost 2025, maybe it's time to drop the BW comparaison. We've been playing this game for 15 years with balance patches, obviously the player base like to see changes from time to time.
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On October 23 2024 04:25 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2024 21:52 Nebuchad wrote:
So, people are probably going to die to bio and roach pushes before we get to that point of the game anyway but this thread is sleeping a little bit on the energy overcharge I reckon. Getting to supercharge templars is not insignificant at all. It has a 1 minute global cooldown apparently, and it costs 50 nexus energy to replenish 100 unit energy. I don't think it's good.
You're probably right, yeah. But they say they'll monitor it, so if you're right and they actually do a good job of monitoring they can tweak the numbers a little.
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Northern Ireland25507 Posts
On October 23 2024 04:35 outscar wrote:
It's 2025 almost. Just leave the game alone lol. Salvaging turrets and sensors? Stim pack for hydras? Wtf. Unecessary bloat. Way to kill a game further. This is why SC2 will never be popular in Korea unlike BW.
They change things up in League all the time no? How’s that doing in Korea?
Until the ability to make 3rd party ladders and have control of maps is taken away from Blizzard, you don’t really have any other tools to keep things fresh or adjust things in any other fashion
Maybe they should go that route, but I don’t think there’s a one-size-fits-all approach
Metas can be stable, pretty static and good, sometimes they can settle into something a bit shit in perpetuity.
Modern WC3 has some more options and diversity at the top level these days than when I followed it way back in the day. Not that there weren’t missteps there either
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Terran extra supply with free repair and hp, what the hell. Sure we will see more of it :p
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This really really annoyed me when I first read it. I think the last patch showed pretty clearly that, hey, when you buff Protoss, they do better! And then to follow that up with a patch that severely nerfs one of the few strong Protoss units (Immortal) and directly and severely nerfs Protoss' already biggest problem area (early/mid game defense) is just giving me a persecution complex. And even the "buffs" being so cautious and severely overcompensated as to be either irrelevant (Colossus, Shield Battery) or effectively nerfs (Disruptor); and then the contrast between that and the way in which the mild nerfs to the other races are so hesitant and compensated the other way as to effectively be buffs (see: Queen, Liberator)...I really didn't used to be a Protoss Conspiracy Theorist, but it's impossible not to see the difference here.
That being said, upon more sober consideration, there are some things I really like here. Overall, I really like the idea behind the new Nexus ability. I think design-wise it's a really intelligent way to create an ability that is simple but very diverse in its applications, opening up potentially many different builds and strats, and which properly tuned would be very strong--but only in more skilled hands, and directly rewarding skill and intelligence. I think if you combined that with some real buffs to Protoss' early game, whether through straight-up buffing the shield battery and/or buffing som early game units (which they're so afraid to do but would be absolutely fine) it would be a really big thing for Protoss, at one stroke potentially making Protoss less dominant at lower levels, stronger at the highest level, and with an overall higher skill cap and build diversity.
The Supply Calldown thing is also really cool and well-designed, with interesting choices involved. Nerfing the Planetary Fortress is straight-up a good idea. Buffing macrobial shroud is probably good. I'm fine with Blue Flame hellions being strong again. The idea of nerfing mass Queen is good. The idea of removing Liberator range is good.
That being said, none of the tuning here makes any sense. Mass Queen needs to actually be nerfed; Protoss early game defense needs to be actually buffed. Disruptor consistency needs to be actually increased, and a damage nerf is fine but I'm doubting whether a Disruptor that dies harder to Marauders is it. Nerfing sensor towers and giving counterplay to salvage is good, but adding it to missile turrets and sensor towers is a crazy buff to turtle terran. Massively buffing liberator attack area size is just crazy. Liberator range could honestly just be removed straight up period with no compensation and it would be totally fine and probably better for everyone. I have no idea who thinks that Liberators without range wouldn't be strong, or thinks that TvP when T gets to mass range liberator is fun or balanced. There is no conceivable situation in which buffing Spore Crawlers is a good idea or won't be horribly abused to camp. Et cetera.
Hopefully the balance team can properly tune this patch, and particularly the new Protoss ability, and not either let it go through as is or just give up and revert the change. There's a lot of potential here.
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Northern Ireland25507 Posts
On October 23 2024 05:42 Captain Peabody wrote:
This really really annoyed me when I first read it. I think the last patch showed pretty clearly that, hey, when you buff Protoss, they do better! And then to follow that up with a patch that severely nerfs one of the few strong Protoss units (Immortal) and directly and severely nerfs Protoss' already biggest problem area (early/mid game defense). And even the "buffs" being so cautious and severely overcompensated as to be either irrelevant (Colossus, Shield Battery) or effectively nerfs (Disruptor). And then the contrast between that and the way in which the mild nerfs to the other races are so hesitant and compensated the other way as to effectively be buffs (see: Queen, Liberator). I really didn't used to be a Protoss Conspiracy Theorist, but it's impossible not to see the difference here.
That being said, upon more sober consideration, there are some things I really like here. Overall, I really like the idea behind the new Nexus ability. I think design-wise it's a really intelligent way to create an ability that is simple but very diverse in its applications, opening up potentially many different builds and strats, and which properly tuned would be very strong--but only in more skilled hands, and directly rewarding skill and intelligence. I think if you combined that with some real buffs to Protoss' early game, whether through straight-up buffing the shield battery and/or buffing som early game units (which they're so afraid to do but would be absolutely fine) it would be a really big thing for Protoss, at one stroke potentially making Protoss less dominant at lower levels, stronger at the highest level, and with an overall higher skill cap and build diversity.
The Supply Calldown thing is also really cool and well-designed, with interesting choices involved. Nerfing the Planetary Fortress is straight-up a good idea. Buffing macrobial shroud is probably good. I'm fine with Blue Flame hellions being strong again. The idea of nerfing mass Queen is good. The idea of removing Liberator range is good.
That being said, none of the tuning here makes any sense. Mass Queen needs to actually be nerfed; Protoss early game defense needs to be actually buffed; massively buffing liberator size is crazy. Liberator range should honestly just be removed straight up period with no compensation and it would be totally fine and probably just better. I have no idea who thinks that Liberators without range wouldn't be strong, or thinks that TvP when T get to mass range liberator is fun or balanced. There is no conceivable situation in which buffing Spore Crawlers is a good idea or won't be horribly abused to camp. Et cetera.
Agreed 100%
I feel reading in from the outside, you really get the impression that the council has good ideas, but lacks a project manager
So you end up with a bunch of pretty interesting, valid tweaks but all pooled together don’t seem to pull in a coherent, cohesive direction
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On October 23 2024 04:09 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2024 03:41 CicadaSC wrote:
What do you guys think of how OP protoss scouting could be now? Remember when protoss used to open Adept -> Sentry vs Terran? Now if you do that you can overcharge your sentry immediately and Hallucinated scout and then you'll have another Scout up at the old timing as well. You will never have to be caught off guard again. Then in mid game you can warp in Templar as soon as Templar Archives finishes, overcharge a Templar, then once ur research is finished you can overcharge again and have 2 extra storms. Now, this is a lot of Nexus energy to do all this. 1 less Chrono boost early, and 2 less Chrono boosts later on, but if you consider you would typically be banking or having to use 1-2 overcharges by the time your Templar were ready and finished before to survive through timings it's not *terrible* but I do think the Overcharge Energy cost should be reduced slightly. With the 60 second cooldown it already guarantees you can't just spam it. I think you might just die anyway, at least in TvP. Toss struggle to get temps out in time to stop a few particularly fiendish pushes as it is, it’s why they’re (mostly) rushing out a Collosus and relying on overcharge And overcharge is way, way more important (at times) in PvT because you need that burst heal to compensate for T’s huge burst damage. Versus Zerg multiple regular batteries can often do a good enough job PvZ, I think is much more promising for a variety of reasons. Some of their committed pushes swing from relatively trivial for a top pro to stop or they see it, to very difficult indeed if you don’t. Extra halluc, nice. I think what also makes this change nice is Oracles with extra energy. This gives them extra offensive potential, they can keep tabs on things scouting wise and potentially do more damage too. And in a defensive capacity Oracles are very good damage output against pre-hydra Zerg timings in a way they just aren’t against the race that has marines. Here’s my worry, taking away overcharge at the same time entirely (versus perhaps a nerf). Protoss may end up being dumpstered so hard that they just revert the overcharge change, without giving the community time to see the potential of the energy boost ability. And I think there is potential and interesting dynamics here. I’ve always liked the idea of juggling chrono priorities versus banking energy for other uses and the risk-reward there Also given it was announced on my birthday, I hereby declare this WombaT’s patch, so it better not be shit
Next year if toss is still getting destroyed left and right
Am I allow to say “oh remember that Wombat patch? That was total shit”
Or “the wombat patch was a nail in the coffin for all toss”
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On October 23 2024 05:39 Qotsa4 wrote:
Terran extra supply with free repair and hp, what the hell. Sure we will see more of it :p
Yea it's a buff but it's still a really situational ability you'd rather not use since it costs a MULE to use it.
I doubt it will increase its use much at the pro level. You might see it a lot more on the ladder now though.
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Northern Ireland25507 Posts
On October 23 2024 06:20 Blitzball04 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2024 04:09 WombaT wrote:On October 23 2024 03:41 CicadaSC wrote:
What do you guys think of how OP protoss scouting could be now? Remember when protoss used to open Adept -> Sentry vs Terran? Now if you do that you can overcharge your sentry immediately and Hallucinated scout and then you'll have another Scout up at the old timing as well. You will never have to be caught off guard again. Then in mid game you can warp in Templar as soon as Templar Archives finishes, overcharge a Templar, then once ur research is finished you can overcharge again and have 2 extra storms. Now, this is a lot of Nexus energy to do all this. 1 less Chrono boost early, and 2 less Chrono boosts later on, but if you consider you would typically be banking or having to use 1-2 overcharges by the time your Templar were ready and finished before to survive through timings it's not *terrible* but I do think the Overcharge Energy cost should be reduced slightly. With the 60 second cooldown it already guarantees you can't just spam it. I think you might just die anyway, at least in TvP. Toss struggle to get temps out in time to stop a few particularly fiendish pushes as it is, it’s why they’re (mostly) rushing out a Collosus and relying on overcharge And overcharge is way, way more important (at times) in PvT because you need that burst heal to compensate for T’s huge burst damage. Versus Zerg multiple regular batteries can often do a good enough job PvZ, I think is much more promising for a variety of reasons. Some of their committed pushes swing from relatively trivial for a top pro to stop or they see it, to very difficult indeed if you don’t. Extra halluc, nice. I think what also makes this change nice is Oracles with extra energy. This gives them extra offensive potential, they can keep tabs on things scouting wise and potentially do more damage too. And in a defensive capacity Oracles are very good damage output against pre-hydra Zerg timings in a way they just aren’t against the race that has marines. Here’s my worry, taking away overcharge at the same time entirely (versus perhaps a nerf). Protoss may end up being dumpstered so hard that they just revert the overcharge change, without giving the community time to see the potential of the energy boost ability. And I think there is potential and interesting dynamics here. I’ve always liked the idea of juggling chrono priorities versus banking energy for other uses and the risk-reward there Also given it was announced on my birthday, I hereby declare this WombaT’s patch, so it better not be shit Next year if toss is still getting destroyed left and right Am I allow to say “oh remember that Wombat patch? That was total shit” Or “the wombat patch was a nail in the coffin for all toss”
Absolutely, hell WombaT’s LawTM was even worse for Toss, alas it did not catch on in wider SC2 parlance. Perhaps if I was more of a Redditor rather than a TL loyalist
I think it did stand true for multiple years though, I’ll maybe actually check sometime. In a major premier tournament, no Toss can win if they have they to play more than one Zerg in a playoff bracket. Intuitively I think a combo of balance back in the day, Zerg getting stronger the higher the x in a BoX, Toss being the inverse and having to show your best builds to take out a top Zerg with the next guy taking notes all contributed
Trap beat the law/curse by taking out Serral and Reynor at Dreamhack Last Chance, which was nice as he’s one of my favourite players so if anyone was to break it
I can become the ultimate jinx for my own race!
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Northern Ireland25507 Posts
On October 23 2024 06:39 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2024 05:39 Qotsa4 wrote:
Terran extra supply with free repair and hp, what the hell. Sure we will see more of it :p Yea it's a buff but it's still a really situational ability you'd rather not use since it costs a MULE to use it. I doubt it will increase its use much at the pro level. You might see it a lot more on the ladder now though.
We have a guy in our scene who has about 19 variants of baneling bust and no other builds, and this is very much known. It still works a remarkable amount of the time.
I wonder if this can potentially add that little extra protection, if so he’s a bit fucked
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On October 23 2024 06:39 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2024 05:39 Qotsa4 wrote:
Terran extra supply with free repair and hp, what the hell. Sure we will see more of it :p Yea it's a buff but it's still a really situational ability you'd rather not use since it costs a MULE to use it. I doubt it will increase its use much at the pro level. You might see it a lot more on the ladder now though.
I mean I'm sure we'll see it used when there's early cheese or a baneling bust that a Terran is losing to...because why not? It's basically a panic button. The real question is if it will ever be used successfully in a scenario where the Terran doesn't lose (plausibly because of it), or if it just becomes the infallible sign that the Terran has already lost the game.
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Canada8989 Posts
I want to share with the world a realisation. I'll be able to depot block a nexus, then, when it's on 5 hp, summon a super-depot in their face.
The WombaT's patch will bring me endless joy.
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Northern Ireland25507 Posts
On October 23 2024 08:43 Nakajin wrote:
I want to share with the world a realisation. I'll be able to depot block a nexus, then, when it's on 5 hp, summon a super-depot in their face.
The WombaT's patch will bring me endless joy.
Happy you’re using the approved nomenclature (Blizz forgot to correctly name it)
That is a fiendish proposition but can one do that? We shall see!
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Here are my version of changes for StarCraft 2 patch 5.0.14:
Terran:
Liberator
- Defender Mode damage reduced from 75 (+5) to 41 (+3)
- Cost and supply reduced from 150/125/3 to 125/100/2
- Build time reduced from 43 to 29
- Health reduced from 180 to 150
- Smart Servos upgrade is now also affecting Liberators. With Smart Servos, Liberator siege time is
decreased from 2.89 to 2.12 (26.6% reduction) and unsiege time is decreased from 1.46 to 1.13 (23%
reduction).
Protoss:
Nexus
- Shield Battery Overcharge ability removed.
- New ability added: Energy Overcharge. Energy Overcharge costs 50 Energy and recharges 100 Energy
of the targeted allied unit or structure with a maximum range of 9.
Disruptor
- Purification Nova damage reduced from 145 (+55 shield) to 85 (+60 shield)
- Purification Nova Radius increased from 1.375 to 1.5
- Cost and supply reduced from 150/150/4 to 125/100/3
- Build time reduced from 36 to 31
Immortal
- Mineral Cost decreased from 275 to 250
High Templar
- Feedback now deals 0.75 damage per point of energy drained, up from 0.5 damage per point of energy
drained.
Tempest
- Supply Cost decreased from 5 to 4.
- Damage Point decreased from 0.119 to 0.0857 (28% reduction).
- Attack Range vs Air decreased from 14 to 13.
Zerg:
Ravager
- Cost and supply reduced from 25(100)/75(100)/1(3) to 25(100)/25(50)/0(2)
- Build time reduced from 12(31) to 8(27)
- Corrosive Bile range reduced from 9 to 7
Infestor
- Microbial Shroud is now sticking to units, providing them with its effect for 3.6 seconds while off the
Shroud.
Ultralisk
- While moving, Ultralisk is now able to push allied units.
Brood Lord
- Broodling HP is increased from 20 to 30.
- Broodling Weapon Cooldown decreased from 0.57 to 0.46.
- Fixed the bug which prevented Brood Lord from dealing full damage while shooting from the maximum
distance.
General
- Orbital Command Scanner Sweep visual now uses team color.
- Sensor Tower Radar minimap visual now uses team color.
- Command Center, Nexus and Hatchery now auto rally to mineral fields. --> Not changed,
same as 5.0.13 and before as it is the players mental timer task to make sure base is micro-managed.
- Workers waiting for Refinery, Extractor or Assimilator to finish do not count as idle.
- SCV random delay between moving while building adjusted from 3.57- 7.14 to 4.64-6.07 (same average).
- Added icon to command card for Infestor, Hellion, Hellbat, Liberator showing unupgraded passive
upgrades.
- Siege Tank and Immortal tracking change from previous patch reverted due to causing unintentional
retargeting.
- Fixed an issue where blinding cloud caused certain melee units attacks to be more easily canceled.
- Fixed an issue where blinding cloud could cause Planetaries to not attack units at melee range in certain
angles.
- Fixed an issue with issuing orders on certain types of rocks in fog.
- Fixed an issue with Changeling zealot move animation speed.
- Tweaked Hydralisk move animation speed to match it’s actual movement speed (art only).
In my opinion some of these are as long waited as since the Legacy of the Void release.
Everything else stays the same from 5.0.13.
I just wanted to make my suggestion for StarCraft 2 Patch 5.0.14.
Thank You
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On October 22 2024 03:10 Waxangel wrote:
I think some of the changes are a bit incoherent in terms of overall policy. So you heavily nerf mine drops and disruptors in previous patches because insta-lose moments feel bad, but then you buff disruptor range and blue flame hellions in the next patch? I don't really get it.
It feels more like lipstick on a pig to me. Insta-loss/comeback units are imho just poor design that probably should never have been included in the first place, but if the overall game is balanced around them, nerfing might be the only option. Similarly, turtling is always going to be an inherently dominant strategy in a game like this that prioritizes base-building and macro mechanics over micro, but if these changes can at least reduce the % of games that turn into 20+ minute positional slogs that seems like a good thing. Not saying there's a ton of coherence, but also not sure coherence is even a virtue when you're tinkering around the edges of the design.
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On October 23 2024 08:43 Nakajin wrote:
I want to share with the world a realisation. I'll be able to depot block a nexus, then, when it's on 5 hp, summon a super-depot in their face.
The WombaT's patch will bring me endless joy.
Oh my god, and i wonder if you can summon a 2nd or 3rd depot on it?? Or can you only use it on basic depots?
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EPT
