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Vindicare605
United States16032 Posts
On October 23 2024 14:04 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Oh my god, and i wonder if you can summon a 2nd or 3rd depot on it?? Or can you only use it on basic depots? You can only use Supply Drop on basic Supply Depots that are already built. | ||
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omop
42 Posts
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Expensive-Law-9830
67 Posts
Now you are crying. A healthy scene would try to PREVENT anything that may change the fundament of the scene, the game itself. It is obvious that those in the balance council don't care about the game, but to make it easier to suck everything from this scene, first by deleting a race so they do not have to train much anymore. | ||
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True_Spike
Poland3410 Posts
The hatchery being even cheaper than it is now is just asinine. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland11902 Posts
On October 23 2024 15:41 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote: Man I like how y'all were BEGGING for any changes to 'keep the game fresh', hoping that patches would bring in new players (never in the history of video games did patches do anything to bring in new players, except for fixing an unplayable game). Now you are crying. A healthy scene would try to PREVENT anything that may change the fundament of the scene, the game itself. It is obvious that those in the balance council don't care about the game, but to make it easier to suck everything from this scene, first by deleting a race so they do not have to train much anymore. If you eat something every day and you want to eat something different, and then one day instead of what you eat every day they serve you a big old plate of shit, the fact that you wanted to eat something different is not evidence that you ought to be happy now. There's now evidence of most pros not being happy with the changes surfacing, including possible bias in the way the changes are validated... The complaints are sound. | ||
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Expensive-Law-9830
67 Posts
On October 23 2024 16:07 Nebuchad wrote: If you eat something every day and you want to eat something different, and then one day instead of what you eat every day they serve you a big old plate of shit, the fact that you wanted to eat something different is not evidence that you ought to be happy now. There's now evidence of most pros not being happy with the changes surfacing, including possible bias in the way the changes are validated... The complaints are sound. BW players have been eating the same food for 23 years and viewership is 16 times that of SC2, let alone donations being about 10 million dollars a year. Meanwhile the "balance council" of Flash, Jaedong and Bisu were actively begging Blizzard not to change anything except for cosmetic stuff during SCR. That is the difference between a healthy game and a dead game: A healthy game doesn't want anything changed as it would otherwise harm a great status quo, while a dead game actively wants change in the hope of somehow bringing in new life in a dead status quo. User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland11902 Posts
On October 23 2024 16:15 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote: BW players have been eating the same food for 23 years and viewership is 16 times that of SC2, let alone donations being about 10 million dollars a year. Meanwhile the "balance council" of Flash, Jaedong and Bisu were actively begging Blizzard not to change anything except for cosmetic stuff during SCR. That is the difference between a healthy game and a dead game: A healthy game doesn't want anything changed as it would otherwise harm a great status quo, while a dead game actively wants change in the hope of somehow bringing in new life in a dead status quo. Oh sorry I thought you wanted to say something interesting I didn't realize this was about the size of BW's dick | ||
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Expensive-Law-9830
67 Posts
On October 23 2024 16:27 Nebuchad wrote: Oh sorry I thought you wanted to say something interesting I didn't realize this was about the size of BW's dick I am sorry, I'd rather let Saudis fuck my ass for 'rescuing the scene'  | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland23673 Posts
On October 23 2024 15:41 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote: Man I like how y'all were BEGGING for any changes to 'keep the game fresh', hoping that patches would bring in new players (never in the history of video games did patches do anything to bring in new players, except for fixing an unplayable game). Now you are crying. A healthy scene would try to PREVENT anything that may change the fundament of the scene, the game itself. It is obvious that those in the balance council don't care about the game, but to make it easier to suck everything from this scene, first by deleting a race so they do not have to train much anymore. Do you ever get shit of posting this kind of nonsense? | ||
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Expensive-Law-9830
67 Posts
On October 23 2024 16:35 WombaT wrote: Do you ever get shit of posting this kind of nonsense? Do your arguments ever go past dismissing anything while saying nothing at all? | ||
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Expensive-Law-9830
67 Posts
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xPrimuSx
92 Posts
On October 22 2024 18:45 WombaT wrote: I’d be in favour of just removing the energy requirement from graviton beam altogether. They’re one of Protoss’ high-skill APM sinks as it is and require direct control to do damage, do they need to have that energy requirement? So many units have already lost energy, on that alone I'm against removing it from Phoenix. If anything, I'd like to add energy back to some units so Feedback is more useful again. Maybe a change to Feedback where instead of single target damage it deals its damage as a small AOE so it's threatening again seeing as they already nerfed it so that it doesn't kill anything anymore Overall though this patch has good goals as stated (increasing skill expression with Protoss abilities, opening up alternative playstyles, reducing camping) but poorly executed. The stated goals only really seem to get fulfilled in Terran, partially fulfilled in Zerg, and almost actively the opposite outcome in Protoss. Protoss is basically nerfed and their already weak early game is made that much weaker given their loss of defensive strength without any real compensation. The shield battery buff doesn't really help anything, the Disruptor change massively reduces it's power, the Colossus change doesn't really help that much given it remains quite weak at killing things and the slight "buff" against EMP doesn't change that. Immortals are effectively neutral massed but may open up a new timing with the reduced cost. Mothership, I like the multi-attack, but it's still too vulnerable and Time Warp is too weak and should get a sticky affect like Microbial Shroud. Energy Recharge seems interesting but overall weak as currently implemented, either reduce the cooldown or make it an AOE ability with less energy restored. So Protoss camping is nerfed, their tools are in the process of being reshaped but in a place that seems unfinished and weaker than pre-patch, and doesn't really seem like more playstyles are made viable. Zerg also has some minor change to their early game which will likely result in delayed timings. If the spore and spine crawlers are meant to be used instead the way Lowko fears that's actually a big change in terms of using up larva, but I think that's not really going to be a thing, mostly the delay opening up some early game vulnerability. The Hydra change seems stupid and useful only in very limited circumstances. Love the Infestor and Ultra changes. Don't care for the Broodlord change, but that's mostly because I don't feel it's in line with the original design intent. Overall though Zerg got some potential change to early game and some strengthening to late game power. So, Zerg camping is stronger with stronger and faster building defensive structures and changes to Hatch/Queens that won't matter by the late game, their late game is a bit more open and potentially they have more options. Terran remains untouched in their early game and their late game was buffed with the salvage change, the speedier and wider hitting Libs, and Ghost remaining untouched. The sensor tower nerf/re-work is interesting and I'll have to see how it plays out, the Planetary nerf also feels like it needs to be monitored for its impact. The blue flame change is ridiculous. The Thor change is interesting but we'll see if it actually amounts to anything considering how often Thors are actually made. So Terran turtle style is considerably better thanks to the salvage change, they get even more harassment power with Blue Flame, and potentially a boost to mech with the various changes as well. | ||
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Wintex
Norway16835 Posts
On October 23 2024 05:44 WombaT wrote: Agreed 100% I feel reading in from the outside, you really get the impression that the council has good ideas, but lacks a project manager So you end up with a bunch of pretty interesting, valid tweaks but all pooled together don’t seem to pull in a coherent, cohesive direction In general, I agree with both of these guys. There's an issue with how the goals are good, but the changes feel like somewhat arbitrary gyrations. Making queens a less straight forward scalable unit so there's a modicum of punishment for spending money on more queens is a good thing. It opens up avenues of player interaction that kind of fell apart in the early game change to 12 workers leading to a stale early game build choice. Zerg gameplay will always optimize over time and making the Zerg player react should be a worthwhile value proposition if you do well. For Protoss, it's really difficult to see how to strengthen the early game in a smooth way. You don't want to create a change that stabilizes it to such a degree where opponent decisions don't interact with you or where gateway man is just too juiced. The idea to increase skill expression for all levels is a good thing, but it's honestly just best to make decently big changes so the identity of the Protoss game kinda shifts a bit. It's a shame these band-aid solutions have always plagued the race. Terran is a bit over-kitted and i think that the salvage stuff is weird. Libs also are a terrible unit and I would have just removed it. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15866 Posts
On October 23 2024 05:00 Nakajin wrote: My gut feeling is that the initial sentry scout wouldn't be worth cutting the chrono. It's probably not early enough to completely cover a probe scout and if your are facing an agressive set up you probably need your chrono and if it's a macro set up you are just behind. I could imagine some clever stuff with the oracle or pheonix/oracle builds. It's almost 2025, maybe it's time to drop the BW comparaison. We've been playing this game for 15 years with balance patches, obviously the player base like to see changes from time to time. Uuhm you can't really assume that. Just because something has always been a certain way it doesn't mean that's what people want. "All 45 US presidents have been male, clearly a male president is what people want" | ||
Nakajin
Canada8988 Posts
On October 23 2024 22:23 Charoisaur wrote: Uuhm you can't really assume that. Just because something has always been a certain way it doesn't mean that's what people want. "All 45 US presidents have been male, clearly a male president is what people want" Well we're still playing and/or watching the game aren't we? If the concept of patching and changing the game is an issue for someone I feel they would have abandonned SC2 a long time ago, it's never been the philosophy of the game. I certainly have not seen a lot of people in response to this patch saying we should just stop patching. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15866 Posts
On October 23 2024 22:34 Nakajin wrote: Well we're still playing and/or watching the game aren't we? If the concept of patching and changing the game is an issue for someone I feel they would have abandonned SC2 a long time ago, it's never been the philosophy of the game. I certainly have not seen a lot of people in response to this patch saying we should just stop patching. Well, If someone quit the game due to it we wouldn't see him posting here. Player/viewer numbers are certainly going down. Also you can dislike one thing about the game and still like the package enough to still follow it. I have been against patching since like 2018 and I'm still here | ||
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geokilla
Canada8218 Posts
On October 23 2024 22:34 Nakajin wrote: Well we're still playing and/or watching the game aren't we? If the concept of patching and changing the game is an issue for someone I feel they would have abandonned SC2 a long time ago, it's never been the philosophy of the game. I certainly have not seen a lot of people in response to this patch saying we should just stop patching. You must have missed my post. I don't play it anymore either but I still tune in to watch. Though I must say, the game has gotten really stale to watch. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10292 Posts
I really don't think the Blue Flame upgrade will ruin anything, mech players have felt Hellions were a bit undertuned as a mineral dump unit compared to Marines and Zealots for example. Making them able to trade more fairly vs an equal cost of Marines and Zealots will help round out Mech's early-game to be less flimsy and not need to turtle so hard, and will promote more interactions and engagements. Hellions also are able to 2 shot workers anyways once they get some attack upgrades - the Blue Flame upgrade now being able to 2 shot workers only allows it to do so earlier in the game, which also helps improve Mech openings and the potential ability for players opening Blue Flame to decide whether to transition into Bio or Mech. We may get to see occasional TvT Mech games vs Bio/tank, this leads to a more contrasting and dynamic mirror MU, and many great memorable TvTs have involved 1 player going Mech vs a different comp. It's really sad that in LotV especially with the Raven becoming more of a bio spellcaster and matrix being able to disable tanks so easily, that Mech has become almost pointless in TvT. I'm not advocating to make passive turtle gameplay strong or common. I'm advocating for interesting and positional Mech play to become possible and viable, and to increase the variety of unit comps and MUs. It's OK for Mech to still be the weak, more niche comp compared to Bio or Bio-mech styles. However, it shouldn't be so weak to the point where it's unviable and chosen in professional play less than 5% of the time (especially in TvP, which is seen less than 1% of the time). Isn't it reasonable to allow it to be played even just 5-10% of the time?? I really don't think this is unreasonable. And before anyone brings up that Protoss shouldn't be able to go mass Robo - that simply isn't an equivalent situation. Even Bio doesn't go pure Bio units. Support units of other tech paths should be pretty required to supplement the core of your army for any composition of any race. Pretty much all of Zerg's units have some usage in a unit comp in all 3 MUs. And Protoss is able to open with any of their 3 tech choices in some degree in all 3 MUs, and use that tech path's units to support their army (or in the case of Stargate comps, make their main army revolve around Tempests or Carriers or whatnot.) And yes - of course I also advocate for Protoss to be buffed and balanced properly. More playstyles and unit compositions should become viable or seen in some degree, even if just 5-10% of the time, as long as they are not degenerate playstyles like HotS SHs or WoL BL/Infestor. Positional playstyles like Mech where you setup entrenched defensive positions and put pressure on the opponent to engage, or setup offensive fortified positions to launch attacks from are staple and classic styles of gameplay in traditional RTS games, and is nothing problematic or degenerate like HotS SHs, WoL BL/Infestor, or mass Ravens. I understand some games design and balance in a way to attract an audience that prefers a specific gameplay style, that's valid if they want that. (For example, Melee prefers to keep the game as is with a small viable cast of fighters who play more up close - but Ultimate has a much huger viable cast of characters with way more playstyles - many of which other players may not prefer to play against of course, but ultimately leads to a much more played and alive game and larger scene.) I think allowing people who want to play alternative styles occasionally to some degree should be a reasonable ask, and a healthy middleground as it allows more people to find fun and play the game that we don't want to die. Many players similar to me have left the game over the years after seeing that Mech get continually neglected, especially after the various goals Blizzard promised. That is the cost of restricting the amount of viable playstyles and unit comps. Sorry I went on a rant but I think we as a community should strive to hold ourselves to a higher standard than the Balance Council, and have a higher degree of sophistication when it comes to the feedback we give and what we ask the Balance Council to do. We shouldn't be biased and argue to nerf playstyles and comps that other people enjoy just because we ourselves don't want to play/see them. We should see the other side always, and argue for a vibrant diversity in gameplay and for a healthy balance of races, MUs, and unit comps. I understand SC2 is late in its life, and we shouldn't be too ambitious - but when it's offseason and we have a PTR, it doesn't hurt to just try things out! | ||
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Nakajin
Canada8988 Posts
On October 24 2024 01:18 Charoisaur wrote: Well, If someone quit the game due to it we wouldn't see him posting here. Player/viewer numbers are certainly going down. Also you can dislike one thing about the game and still like the package enough to still follow it. I have been against patching since like 2018 and I'm still here Sure, but if they are gone it's not like those people will be lure back to the game by the prospect of no more patches being added to a version they have never seen, so it's not of much importance. There are probably others like yourself who wish we stuck to the current version of the game forever, but it is fairly clear that the vast majority of responses to this patch (and discussions around sc2 in general) aren't advocating for this option. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland11902 Posts
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