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On October 22 2024 04:01 Charoisaur wrote:
Had to read the Broodlord change 3 times because it's the opposite of everything they said they wanted to achieve.
The Queen nerf is huge though so maybe Broodlords won't be a problem
25 more minerals is huge? Maybe early game but I feel as the game becomes a macro won't make much difference.
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On October 22 2024 08:04 Nakajin wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2024 05:07 Cricketer12 wrote:
I don't really follow or play SC2 at this point so my opinion and analysis admittedly mean diddly squat but this patch...confuses me.
For one stated intentions are to reduce camping and big blow out effects (which I find to be noble goals). However execution is questionable. Between buffing salvage, sensor towers, spines, spores and brood lords, I question if camping is truly discouraged. As far as big blow outs go, the blue flame buff is...terrifying, and rebuffing disruptors is odd to me.
This brings me to my 2nd point of confusion. I may be incorrect here but not only is Protoss in a weak spot (at least at the pro scene) but is hyperfocused on the disruptor, a unit who's explosivity (figuratively and literally) determines games. Much like the warp gate nerf when LotV launched...I feel like Protoss needs to adjusted significantly such that they have buffed tools and a nerfed disruptor?
Honestly I read overall as more nerfs than buffs to Toss with it's biggest buff being the Queen nerf which I find perplexing.
Cool to see this many changes (and new spells) but overall I'm confused. Can anyone explain where I'm going wrong here? The disruptor isn't nearly as central for protoss as it use to be outside of pvp, I couldn't really tell you why honestly, one of the previous patch change. Protoss does well in lower level GM (and they seem to imply it's too strong/frustating in lower leagues), but yeah overall it read like a fairly big nerf to toss, at least until the late game.
The late game buffs aren't even significant.
Top tier Terrans don't care about the radius of the Disruptor's Purification nova. They're so good at dodging it, or killing the Disruptors before they get hit, that it hardly matters about a 20-25% increase in radius. This is something that's going to be more impactful on ladder than in pro games.
The Mothership is a meme. Buffing it hardly matters since it costs so much and takes so long to build. Even if it's marginally more effective in combat, you still are never going to want to use it as a combat unit because of how easily it can be sniped. The fact it's still able to be abducted by Vipers means it still needs to be babysat and kept behind your front lines against Zerg.
Having Tempests cost 1 less supply is definitely helpful, but won't change the late game of match ups too much.
They could have given Protoss these buffs without any of the counter-balancing nerfs and it still wouldn't make a significant difference at the tip top level.
These are only going to have an impact in GM and below where Protoss is already thriving on every server.
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I really like most of these changes
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Bisutopia19137 Posts
I’m good with big changes. Let’s shake it up and see what sticks!
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On October 22 2024 08:31 Vindicare605 wrote:
Top tier Terrans don't care about the radius of the Disruptor's Purification nova. They're so good at dodging it, or killing the Disruptors before they get hit, that it hardly matters about a 20-25% increase in radius. This is something that's going to be more impactful on ladder than in pro games.
Purification novas move quite faster than a stimmed marine, theres a good chance that the radius increase makes novas become certain hits, on at least a few units.
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These changes do not bode well for toss. Toss has underperformed for years since previous battery and disruptor nerfs. And now overcharge is removed, nice. And immortals of all things are nerfed?
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SlayerS Terrans are back boys!
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The current Immortal (also colossus and tank in tank mode) have special auto targeting: their weapons still attack the closest enemy unit when they enter range as all other units, but after this enemy unit dies, they will automatical select the next enemy unit closest to the one you just killed, not the closest enemy unit to the Immortal itself.
For example, when a Zerg attacks a Protoss with zergling and Roach, if the Protoss player manually command the Immortal to attack the roach behind, when the roach is killed, the Immortal will attack other enemy unit closer to the first roach, which is more likely to be other roaches behind.
If the patch revert this turret targeting, the Immortal will be attack the closest enemy, which is more like to be zerglings.
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It is just me or does this patch looks like another nerf to toss ?
In what world does removing battery overcharge help Protoss survive any early - mid aggression? It’s already struggling with it
The salvaging turrets is one of the dumbest ideas. Really no need to explain why.
Zerg changes, not too sure about it yet. Have to see it in action first
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The second goal is to continue reshaping Protoss tools for high-level gameplay. We believe there is still a major gap between how Protoss race plays and feels on the highest level of play and the levels below - current set of changes aims to make Protoss race slightly more efficient with the strongest and smartest execution while helping Terran and Zerg players against Protoss on the lower levels.
It's incredible, and it's definitely a great thing. Finally.
The current situation has completely separated high-level gameplay from normal players, and you can only choose one for the balance between the two, which greatly reduces the number of players and the life of the game.
Disruptor
Purification Nova Radius increased from 1.375 to 1.5.
Purification Nova Damage decreased from 145 (+55 vs Shields) to 100 (+100 vs Shields).
This is indeed one of the main issues that divides the player community. Professional players can avoid the Purification Nova through practice, but it is very difficult for normal players to do this, which is clearly not a good design. Thank goodness someone has finally noticed this.
Changing the Purification Nova from a small area of high damage to a larger area of lower damage is an excellent direction for modification.
But this is still unreasonable in terms of numerical design. If Purification Nova deals 45% less damage to Terran and Zerg compared to before, then the range should be increased by at least 45% as well; otherwise, it would be too severe of a nerf. However, increasing the radius from 1.375 to 1.5 only increases the effective range by about 19%, which is not reasonable. According to mathematical calculations, the radius should be increased to 1.65 to reflect a 45% increase, and I believe it should be at least 1.75.
Furthermore, further reworking Purification Nova by changing the damage of Purification Nova to segmented damage or damage over time would be even better.
For example, reduce the the damage of Purification Nova to 80 points or even lower, but cause continuous area damage at the area of effect, similar to Psionic Storm.
Alternatively, after the effect of Purification Nova occurs, create a delayed low-damage secondary Purification Nova at the same location, similar to Corrosive Bile some how.
Turning a one-time confrontation into a continuous confrontation will better reshape the high-level gameplay.
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On October 22 2024 12:20 Blitzball04 wrote:
It is just me or does this patch looks like another nerf to toss ?
In what world does removing battery overcharge help Protoss survive any early - mid aggression? It’s already struggling with it
The salvaging turrets is one of the dumbest ideas. Really no need to explain why.
Zerg changes, not too sure about it yet. Have to see it in action first
It is a nerf to Protoss. Removing Battery Overcharge without any kind of compensation (the proposed energy recharge is a joke) is a pretty substantial nerf.
The other changes hardly matter compared to that one.
Disruptors can't one shot Roaches or Marauders anymore. Meaning they are pretty useless in PvZ. Oh but hey Tempests cost 1 less supply and Motherships are a tiny bit better in combat but cost 400/400/8 again.
None of it helps Protoss. And the removal of Battery Overcharge means they'll die to a lot more all ins, especially Roach Ravager all ins they would have held before.
And this is without taking into consideration the goodies that Zerg got like the buffs to Hydras and Broodlords and the QoL buff for the Ultralisk. Oh but Queens cost 25 minerals more now! big deal.
Thankfully none of the Terran buffs seem like they will do anything in TvP.
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Nexus
Shield Battery Overcharge ability removed.
New ability added: Energy Overcharge. Energy Overcharge costs 50 Energy and recharges 100 Energy of the targeted allied unit or structure with a maximum range of 8.
This approach is too complicated and may prevent the intended goals from being achieved. Since Shield Battery Overcharge is primarily for defense, it would be better to directly change it to provide an additional shield for a unit, with the shield value being upgradeable through tech.
Additionally, making this new shield ability applicable across the entire map would help, just like Strategic Recall. In the lategame, this would also partially address the issue of the Protoss ultimate army being weaker, especially in high-level gameplay.
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You cannot change hatchery cost.
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On October 22 2024 03:00 watchlulu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2024 02:58 MJG wrote:
Honestly, these changes are terrible and scatter-brained Could you elaborate on that?
Here is one example:
The previous patch nerfed Widow Mines, which was to reduce game-ending moments of harassment.
This patch buffs Blue Flame Hellions, which will increase game-ending moment of harassment.
Here is another example:
The stated aim of this patch is to reduce camping, so Queens are going to cost 25 minerals more.
However, the Hatchery costs 25 minerals less, so the first Queen from each Hatchery essentially costs the same.
After you have your first Queen from each Hatchery, economies scale so quickly in Legacy of the Void that the additional cost of further Queens is basically irrelevant in the broad scheme of things.
At the same time, the Spore Crawler, the Spine Crawler, the Infestor, and Brood Lords are all being buffed.
This is a buff to camping, not a nerf.
I also think that making Hatcheries cheaper is ridiculous. They should cost 400 like every other town hall, not less than they already do, though I guess I'd settle for 350 to make up for the cost of the Drone...
EDIT:
I'd also like to mention that this patch represents an overall nerf to Protoss, a race that hasn't won a premier tournament for two years. It often seems like the Protoss players on the balance council have misplaced their spines...
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The first goal is to nerf defensive and camping playstyles:
Spine Crawler
• Build Time decreased from 36 to 32.
• Damage increased from 25 (+5 vs Armored) to 30.
Spore Crawler
• Damage increased from 15 to 20.
• HP decreased from 400 to 300.
Liberator
• Advanced Ballistics effect changed from providing +2 range in Defender mode to increasing the radius in Defender mode from 5 to 6.25 (56% area increase).
• Smart Servos upgrade is now also affecting Liberators. With Smart Servos, Liberator siege time is decreased from 2.89 to 2.12 (26.6% reduction) and unsiege time is decreased from 1.46 to 1.13 (23% reduction).
Bunker, Missile Turret, Sensor Tower
• Salvage ability added for Missile Turret and Sensor Tower (also returning 75% of their cost).
• Salvage process is now being canceled upon taking damage.
Shield Battery
• Shield and HP increased from 150/150 to 200/200.
Is it just me or don't these changes really line up with the goal to nerf defensive playstyles?
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On October 22 2024 16:00 spenzzer wrote:Show nested quote +The first goal is to nerf defensive and camping playstyles:
Spine Crawler
• Build Time decreased from 36 to 32.
• Damage increased from 25 (+5 vs Armored) to 30.
Spore Crawler
• Damage increased from 15 to 20.
• HP decreased from 400 to 300.
Liberator
• Advanced Ballistics effect changed from providing +2 range in Defender mode to increasing the radius in Defender mode from 5 to 6.25 (56% area increase).
• Smart Servos upgrade is now also affecting Liberators. With Smart Servos, Liberator siege time is decreased from 2.89 to 2.12 (26.6% reduction) and unsiege time is decreased from 1.46 to 1.13 (23% reduction).
Bunker, Missile Turret, Sensor Tower
• Salvage ability added for Missile Turret and Sensor Tower (also returning 75% of their cost).
• Salvage process is now being canceled upon taking damage.
Shield Battery
• Shield and HP increased from 150/150 to 200/200.
Is it just me or don't these changes really line up with the goal to nerf defensive playstyles?
They don't.
This is what happens when you put the lunatics in charge of the asylum.
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I'm happy that there are so many people are caring about the the patch.
I'm also not sure what it will be like in the game either, but I find the general mood of badmouthing everything unproductive and biased. In my opinion you have to play a lot of games on the patch to evaluate the changes.
My guesses and thoughts: I find the Hatchery and Queens changes very interesting. fewer queens, possibly more hatcherys, 1-2 spines against early attacks. The only concern I have is that 16 marine drops may be harder to defend as an opening.
The change to photon overcharge also seems to make sense. It will be interesting to see how the new ability really works and how practical it is to use. The disruptor is now buffed against marines and hydras and nerfed against roaches and marauders. I'm undecided whether that makes sense. At my level (Master 1) it is already very difficult to play against disruptor and when I imagine that my marines all still die with one shot and the radius is larger, I think that is questionable. This change could also have a greater impact at higher levels (see stream Heromarine).
Defensive play of terra is now nerfed with the changes to the planetary fortress and sensor towers.
Liberator, Ultra, Hydra have all received interesting changes that I'm excited to see how these play out in the game!
Do we know, when the changes go live? I couldnt find any information...
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United Kingdom38138 Posts
Exciting times - I think they've got a lot of good ideas in here that can make the game feel quite a bit better for most players while not massively warping pro balance. Won't be at all surprised if Disruptor changes don't end up feeling like a buff in the end (though I think we may still see a supply tweak again too)
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removing battery overcharge will kill pvp.
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EPT
