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HeroSandro
538 Posts
On March 16 2024 17:43 ramask2 wrote: I enjoyed reading the articles more or less, but I still don't get why Dark doesn't get a spot in the top 10. I would go for Serral, but not having Dark in top 10 is the bigger scandal 😛 | ||
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ramask2
Thailand1024 Posts
On March 16 2024 17:49 HeroSandro wrote: I would go for Serral, but not having Dark in top 10 is the bigger scandal 😛 Like I respect the author for trying to set up a clear criteria for their top 10, but if Dark, one of the most dominant players ever isn't in them, maybe it's worth looking over the criteria again. Just my opinion though. I still enjoyed reading the discussions that come from this list. | ||
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swarminfestor
Malaysia2465 Posts
On March 16 2024 17:49 HeroSandro wrote: I would go for Serral, but not having Dark in top 10 is the bigger scandal 😛 Dark, Reynor and Byun are pretty much in the same category. Got World Championship Blizzcon titles of their own merit and won many other respective titles, but seemed not enough to fit themselves in top 10 ranking. | ||
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[PkF] Wire
France24239 Posts
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serralbest
39 Posts
On March 16 2024 18:13 swarminfestor wrote: Dark, Reynor and Byun are pretty much in the same category. Got World Championship Blizzcon titles of their own merit and won many other respective titles, but seemed not enough to fit themselves in top 10 ranking. But you have to know that Dark's grades and career length are stronger than Ty's | ||
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Parser
Italy88 Posts
On March 16 2024 09:04 Branch.AUT wrote: How do you even put maru at #1 after he got SMASHED 4-0 by serral, with 250k on the line? Like how can you think he is better? Is it because he won the Global Starvation League so many times, when all other players were done competeing there??? Your wording is too harsh, but what you say is very similar to what I also think. I feel that too much importance has been given to longevity in choosing maru as nr. 1. I can't honestly remember the last time serral has been beaten by maru | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27129 Posts
On March 16 2024 18:13 swarminfestor wrote: Dark, Reynor and Byun are pretty much in the same category. Got World Championship Blizzcon titles of their own merit and won many other respective titles, but seemed not enough to fit themselves in top 10 ranking. By many other titles re Byun do you mean no Premier titles outside of one patch? Although tbh the Assembly he won post-military probably was Premier tier despite lacking the designation | ||
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Snakestyle1
43 Posts
I think it should instead tell us something about the competitiveness of GSL in the last few years. I mean most of those players would stand 0 chance against Serral. If he wanted to he easily could have won a GSL. You had 13 years to win a world championship, and never could win one. You never won a GSL during the Peak GSL days. Yet youre the number one player of all time? Maybe if he always smashed Serral every time they played it would maybe be believable... And the Zerg OP argument is non sense. Zerg hasnt been OP for at least a couple years, and Serral is more dominant than ever. They other zergs dont even do that good, and Ladder zerg population is at lowest ever in masters/gm. (To give context, Zerg was 40% of GM for most of HoTS, and for good first few years of LOTV. Once battery and Serral showed, up, Zerg population nose dived. Yet, the more they nerf zergs, the stronger Serral is anyways, because hes improving faster than the other guys. In the last 14 years, there was multiple moments where terran was OP. Wasnt enough to make him win a world championhship, wasnt enough to win a GSl before last few years. GSL has been really weak for at least 3 years. How many GSL would Maru have won if Serral played in every GSL? Probably not quite as many. | ||
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NeWHoriZonS
57 Posts
Maru has no world championship and won only one offline international tournament in 10 years (WESG) GSL is weak since 3 years so his 7 GSL claim has a bit of an * But it's not even the worst thing in the list Smh a player who won multiple GSL, a WC and +1 million $ of cash prize isn't in the top 10... | ||
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Chobo PacipHiyA
3 Posts
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Shakyor
Germany3 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States46176 Posts
On March 16 2024 17:49 HeroSandro wrote: I would go for Serral, but not having Dark in top 10 is the bigger scandal 😛 Agreed. It's settled then. The perfect list would have been swapping in Dark to replace Serral. No other changes needed! | ||
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Argonauta
Spain4967 Posts
On March 16 2024 18:44 Snakestyle1 wrote: I think its important to keep in mind that even though Maru has been playing since the very beginning (2010), his GSL wins are all in the last 5-6 years; way after the most competitive GSL eras. He never won when gsl was competitive. He won like 5 GSL in a row, but could never win a world championship or even struggle in most world events. The weak point of your argument is that if GSL is weak, then the rest of tournaments are also weak, Korean decline is SC2 goes hand in hand with an overall decline in player depth and competitiveness in international tournaments. So weighting down Maru results in recent years comes with the price of weighting down Serral's entire carrer as well. | ||
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LostUsername100
97 Posts
On March 16 2024 14:53 kaos00 wrote: While I do think they are close enough that it's fair to have some criteria where Maru is the GOAT, I don't really get how ranking MVP over INnoVation and Dark being snubbed is consistent with this. All signs pointed to Serral at the top because if Maru's career is enough to surpass the periods of domination by Serral, then INno's career should top MVP's. Dark should be highly rated and at the veeeery minimum ahead of Rain. This ranking feels icky. It's based on a lot of feels that is clear, Mvp period of domination also came before Kespa, when kespa came over Mvp fled Korea then quit when hots launched. | ||
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Balnazza
Germany1304 Posts
On March 16 2024 19:46 Argonauta wrote: The weak point of your argument is that if GSL is weak, then the rest of tournaments are also weak, Korean decline is SC2 goes hand in hand with an overall decline in player depth and competitiveness in international tournaments. So weighting down Maru results in recent years comes with the price of weighting down Serral's entire carrer as well. The thing is: I hope we all don't rate GSL so high because "the koreans play there", but because "it was an incredibly staked tournament". I still wouldn't put GSL over any WCS titles, but I atleast can see the appeal. However, in recent years GSL falls behind the World Championship considerably because "the best players play there" just wasn't true anymore - it was missing Serral, Reynor and recently Clem. Still a staked tournament, but there should be a shift in priority for sure. Especially considering Miz at some point said something along the line of "maybe koreans performed worse in those international tournaments Serral won because of GSL"...if Maru and co. really lose big tournaments now because they focused on their regional tournament that maybe should be a Liquipedia-Major instead of a Premier by now considering how low the prizepool is...yikes. | ||
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KingzTig
155 Posts
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MyLovelyLurker
France756 Posts
On March 16 2024 18:44 Snakestyle1 wrote: GSL has been really weak for at least 3 years. How many GSL would Maru have won if Serral played in every GSL? Probably not quite as many. This is a legendary if nuanced point. We are always double-counting Serral's lack of GSLs, because Maru, Rogue etc won those. If Serral had played in Code S since 2018, not only would he probably have won about 4, that means it'd be one less at least for each of Maru, Rogue, and Dark, thus making them look worse (and not just Serral better). | ||
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MyLovelyLurker
France756 Posts
On March 16 2024 19:59 LostUsername100 wrote: It's based on a lot of feels that is clear, Mvp period of domination also came before Kespa, when kespa came over Mvp fled Korea then quit when hots launched. Mvp winrate vs Kor: 76.0% in 2011 and that's it (he didn't even have a winning record the next year) Dark winrate vs Kor: 74.1% 2019 72.7% 2021 71.6% 2018 69.3% 2023 67.9% 2022 66.7% 2020 64.4% 2015 64.1% 2017 63.4% 2014 For color you're a tournament win contender above 62.5% and world champion material above 67% with that metric. Which is borne out by Dark's two world championship finals. | ||
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Nasigil
137 Posts
In the Mvp article, he said he put Mvp over Innovation because Mvp is more dominant during his prime (only one year), and he values it over Innovation's much longer and successful career. Then in Maru article, he admits Maru is not as dominant as Serral but praised his "otherworldly longevity", and just lightly brushed off the fact that the supposedly GOAT doesn't have a single WC title by just saying "but longevity!" If you value peak over longevity, then Serral should definitely above Maru. If you value longevity over peak, then there's no way in hell Mvp is above Innovation and Dark is below the likes of TY, Rain, sOs, soO. It feels like he's just in the middle and decide which one he values more depends on the player. If the list is #1 Maru, #2 Serral, #4 Innovation, #5 Dark, #6 Mvp then yeah I understand it, you are looking at big picture and take whole career into consideration. If it's Miz's list but with Serral on top, then I understand he values the peak performance and domination. But the current ranking is just perplexing. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16124 Posts
On March 16 2024 22:17 KingzTig wrote: No way Dark isn't on that list. I personally think rain shouldn't be on it and reshuffle some position around, Dark is definitely top 3 Dark can't be top 3 because Rogue exists. Dark is top 10 IMO but he's nowhere near top 3. The resumes that Maru, Rogue and Serral have put them far ahead of anyone else. | ||
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