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On September 18 2025 03:39 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2025 01:15 Antithesis wrote:On September 17 2025 23:28 Poopi wrote:On September 17 2025 18:46 Harris1st wrote:On September 17 2025 18:34 Charoisaur wrote:On September 17 2025 16:19 Harris1st wrote:On September 17 2025 08:20 Poopi wrote:On September 17 2025 08:11 WombaT wrote:On September 17 2025 07:47 Poopi wrote:On September 17 2025 07:22 Balnazza wrote:
[quote]
As I said earlier: In almost all of his GSL-wins there Terran was atleast normally represented in the Ro8, I think two-times Terran was even in the majority. But yes, Maru carried the race for like six months...in one region btw. Terran wasn't doing great internationally, but it was okay. At the backend of that stretch TaeJa even won two tournaments back-to-back (HSC and DreamHack). And in that very year one Terran even won GSL S3...surprise, not the "Terran Hope", but Innovation. The "Terran hope" couldn't even make it into the Ro8.
Also in that same year Maru did have the most wins in Proleague...but if you look at the individual matchups, his only noteworthy matchup winrate-wise was TvT. Bbyong and Flash, the next two best Terrans, had similiar or even better winrates against Zerg and Protoss.
So the "Terran Hope" was mostly good for...killing Terrans. Pretty sure there is a story-wise joke in there...
The sarcastic commentary aside: Maru did good in 2014. Great even. But to pretend he carried the race for the entirety of the super-duper-hardcore-elite-supreme-era of SC2 is just nonsense. Maru was carrying terran for like five years straight when it was doing, overall, poorly Like he was the sole favorite for any world championship win What 5 years? When did that happen? When is this mythical period where Maru was carrying Terran for 5 years straight? Was it when Inno won more than him? Or when we had multiple Terran GSL champions who weren’t Maru, or when a Terran who wasn’t Maru won a World Champ, or another Terran who wasn’t Maru won a World Champ? When is this mythical period? Maru carrying terran alone in both 2018 and 2019, best hope as well in IEM 2020, and until like 2022-2023. So maybe actually 6 years I can agree on from 2018 onwards until the rise of Clement (somewhere in 2023 I guess), from all the Terrans, Maru had the highest chance of winning a tournament he entered. So yes Maru can be considered the best Terran over a span of 5+ years. Did he carry? I don't think so. Most of the big titles were won by other Terrans (Oli, Clem, Inno)Fair to say for most part even Serral didn't carry his race. He always had a peer (Rogoue, Dark, Reynor) and Serral was by far the favorite to win every tournament he entered from all races How so? Clem and Oli didn't a big title in the time span you specified. Inno won WESG one time just as Maru. But Maru also won GSL 4x which Inno didn't do. TY won GSL twice but no other tournament. With which part do you disagree? Was he the best Terran? Probably, I'd personally say yes. Did he carry?. No, I don't think so The race was uncarryable for most of this timespan, since even Maru could not do it. Not commenting on the rest of the debate, but this is a sort of circular reasoning vaguely similar to the No True Scotsman fallacy. "He could not have carried Terran because if he had been able to carry Terran he would have carried Terran but he did not carry Terran." Nobody did it, not even Maru who was by far the best terran
Still it does not entail that Terran was uncarryable. It's like saying "Nobody could have beaten peak Terran in Clem at EWC 2024 because if it had been possible Serral would have done it but he did not and he was by far the best Zerg." It's always possible that there's a better version of Maru (or Serral or whoever) who might have achieved it.
More simply, you cannot argue that Maru reached the skill ceiling for Terran by simply defining his skill as the skill ceiling.
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France12897 Posts
On September 18 2025 03:52 Antithesis wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2025 03:39 Poopi wrote:On September 18 2025 01:15 Antithesis wrote:On September 17 2025 23:28 Poopi wrote:On September 17 2025 18:46 Harris1st wrote:On September 17 2025 18:34 Charoisaur wrote:On September 17 2025 16:19 Harris1st wrote:On September 17 2025 08:20 Poopi wrote:On September 17 2025 08:11 WombaT wrote:On September 17 2025 07:47 Poopi wrote:
[quote]
Maru was carrying terran for like five years straight when it was doing, overall, poorly
Like he was the sole favorite for any world championship win
What 5 years? When did that happen? When is this mythical period where Maru was carrying Terran for 5 years straight? Was it when Inno won more than him? Or when we had multiple Terran GSL champions who weren’t Maru, or when a Terran who wasn’t Maru won a World Champ, or another Terran who wasn’t Maru won a World Champ? When is this mythical period? Maru carrying terran alone in both 2018 and 2019, best hope as well in IEM 2020, and until like 2022-2023. So maybe actually 6 years I can agree on from 2018 onwards until the rise of Clement (somewhere in 2023 I guess), from all the Terrans, Maru had the highest chance of winning a tournament he entered. So yes Maru can be considered the best Terran over a span of 5+ years. Did he carry? I don't think so. Most of the big titles were won by other Terrans (Oli, Clem, Inno)Fair to say for most part even Serral didn't carry his race. He always had a peer (Rogoue, Dark, Reynor) and Serral was by far the favorite to win every tournament he entered from all races How so? Clem and Oli didn't a big title in the time span you specified. Inno won WESG one time just as Maru. But Maru also won GSL 4x which Inno didn't do. TY won GSL twice but no other tournament. With which part do you disagree? Was he the best Terran? Probably, I'd personally say yes. Did he carry?. No, I don't think so The race was uncarryable for most of this timespan, since even Maru could not do it. Not commenting on the rest of the debate, but this is a sort of circular reasoning vaguely similar to the No True Scotsman fallacy. "He could not have carried Terran because if he had been able to carry Terran he would have carried Terran but he did not carry Terran." Nobody did it, not even Maru who was by far the best terran Still it does not entail that Terran was uncarryable. It's like saying "Nobody could have beaten peak Terran in Clem at EWC 2024 because if it had been possible Serral would have done it but he did not and he was by far the best Zerg." It's always possible that there's a better version of Maru (or Serral or whoever) who might have achieved it. More simply, you cannot argue that Maru reached the skill ceiling for Terran by simply defining his skill as the skill ceiling.
Sure but you are just theorycrafting for the sake of it 
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Northern Ireland25665 Posts
Maru fans making the argument he’s the GOAT…
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On September 18 2025 03:00 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2025 23:28 Poopi wrote:On September 17 2025 18:46 Harris1st wrote:On September 17 2025 18:34 Charoisaur wrote:On September 17 2025 16:19 Harris1st wrote:On September 17 2025 08:20 Poopi wrote:On September 17 2025 08:11 WombaT wrote:On September 17 2025 07:47 Poopi wrote:On September 17 2025 07:22 Balnazza wrote:On September 17 2025 06:54 Moonerz wrote: 2014 Global StarCraft II League Season 2/Code SIdk why people lie about easily provable things. This is 2014 season 2 off the top of my head because I remember this dog map pool and getting blink all ind every game. Maru is the only terran in the r08 and one of four terrans in code s period. Edit: also looked up 2014 season 1. Only 1 terran in the ro8 (guess who) and 3 terrans in code s. But yeah Maru wasn't carrying his race and if he did it was only for a month lmao As I said earlier: In almost all of his GSL-wins there Terran was atleast normally represented in the Ro8, I think two-times Terran was even in the majority. But yes, Maru carried the race for like six months...in one region btw. Terran wasn't doing great internationally, but it was okay. At the backend of that stretch TaeJa even won two tournaments back-to-back (HSC and DreamHack). And in that very year one Terran even won GSL S3...surprise, not the "Terran Hope", but Innovation. The "Terran hope" couldn't even make it into the Ro8. Also in that same year Maru did have the most wins in Proleague...but if you look at the individual matchups, his only noteworthy matchup winrate-wise was TvT. Bbyong and Flash, the next two best Terrans, had similiar or even better winrates against Zerg and Protoss. So the "Terran Hope" was mostly good for...killing Terrans. Pretty sure there is a story-wise joke in there... The sarcastic commentary aside: Maru did good in 2014. Great even. But to pretend he carried the race for the entirety of the super-duper-hardcore-elite-supreme-era of SC2 is just nonsense. Maru was carrying terran for like five years straight when it was doing, overall, poorly Like he was the sole favorite for any world championship win What 5 years? When did that happen? When is this mythical period where Maru was carrying Terran for 5 years straight? Was it when Inno won more than him? Or when we had multiple Terran GSL champions who weren’t Maru, or when a Terran who wasn’t Maru won a World Champ, or another Terran who wasn’t Maru won a World Champ? When is this mythical period? Maru carrying terran alone in both 2018 and 2019, best hope as well in IEM 2020, and until like 2022-2023. So maybe actually 6 years I can agree on from 2018 onwards until the rise of Clement (somewhere in 2023 I guess), from all the Terrans, Maru had the highest chance of winning a tournament he entered. So yes Maru can be considered the best Terran over a span of 5+ years. Did he carry? I don't think so. Most of the big titles were won by other Terrans (Oli, Clem, Inno)Fair to say for most part even Serral didn't carry his race. He always had a peer (Rogoue, Dark, Reynor) and Serral was by far the favorite to win every tournament he entered from all races How so? Clem and Oli didn't a big title in the time span you specified. Inno won WESG one time just as Maru. But Maru also won GSL 4x which Inno didn't do. TY won GSL twice but no other tournament. With which part do you disagree? Was he the best Terran? Probably, I'd personally say yes. Did he carry?. No, I don't think so The race was uncarryable for most of this timespan, since even Maru could not do it. He was the only hope for most of this era though. Like if Maru was eliminated from the tournament, you knew there was barely any chance a terran would win it Serral doesn't have to carry zerg because zerg was at best super OP, at worst equal to other races Ah yes, the return of the "Maru is a God and he only loses units because of balance"-argument. Show nested quote +Even including Maru Terran only won 25% of tournaments and took only 23% of finalist slots during that era. Maru was responsible for the vast majority of wins and majority of finals spots. It's very likely that if Maru didn't exist they would have won <15% of events during that era and had <20% finalists. That's carrying.
Region locked should still be excluded because it was basically can Clem beat Serral. If so he wins, if not he doesn't. And he had Serrals number for part of that era. Sometimes he didn't even have to beat Serral to win those regionals as well. He never won or even made the finals of any major international during that timeframe. Regardless it really wouldn't even change that much because Terran did so abysmal during the 2018/2019 WCS circuits that Clems success in 21/22 is unlikely to change the percentages all that much. And yet, Terran was more than enough represented during tournaments. Tournament-wins don't say much in that regard tbh. As I said a while ago: In most of Marus GSL-wins Terran was well-represented in the Ro8. Also, and I know you have a fundamentally different view on this: Terran winning 25% of tournaments means nothing. Even when the game is perfectly balanced there should not be a 33% split between the races, because that would effectively mean that personal skill does not matter at all, while the opposite should be true. If the game is perfectly balanced and Maru is the almighty-god-of-perfect-play he should win all tournaments. Weirdly, that is kind of what one other dude did, casually almost doubling the amount of Premier-wins compared to the 2nd guy...
You just cherry picked a few ro8s and are using that to say they had good representation. Whether you use ro8 or finals Terran did shitty in that 5 year stretch when looking at all premiers and Maru made up a substantial portion of their representation. If you subtract Marus results from that era T basically becomes extinct for that 5 year period. Meanwhile Zerg won almost 50% of events and won the most even if you subtract Serral.
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I mean, the aforementioned scenario (another terran winning a tournament after Maru got eliminated) happened 4 times in those 5 years. So yeah 'barely' any chance fits quite well imo
Isn't it basically the same number for zerg and Serral, though?
Reynor, Rogue, Dark, SoO.. Who am I missing?
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On September 18 2025 04:40 Admiral Yang wrote:Show nested quote +
I mean, the aforementioned scenario (another terran winning a tournament after Maru got eliminated) happened 4 times in those 5 years. So yeah 'barely' any chance fits quite well imo
Isn't it basically the same number for zerg and Serral, though? Reynor, Rogue, Dark, SoO.. Who am I missing?
You misunderstood it's not the amount of players but the amount of events, non Maru Terran won a combined total of 4 non region locked events (5 if you count the china event Inno won which I did but the user you are replying to didn't) during that 5 year stretch.
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I agree herO carries protoss. And it's not maru being the best and serral carrying that is pretty laughable when it's exactly opposite. Maru wins 11 of 16 and that isn't carrying, it rly shows the foreignerboo bias. Maru might've let 3-4 terrans through to win a wcs, now how many did serral let through?: soo, dark, rogue, reynor and scarlett.
For herO, no one won gsl besides him between the between years of 2017 to 2025, so do we agree now that herO and Maru are the big outliers or do we still point to serral's win rates?
Edit: serral win rates can still be impressive, I don't want to take away from that, but this argument is not sufficient for goat debate imo, and I also don't think he would be able to score these kind of stats in a still vibrant scene.
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On September 18 2025 04:40 JJH777 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2025 03:00 Balnazza wrote:On September 17 2025 23:28 Poopi wrote:On September 17 2025 18:46 Harris1st wrote:On September 17 2025 18:34 Charoisaur wrote:On September 17 2025 16:19 Harris1st wrote:On September 17 2025 08:20 Poopi wrote:On September 17 2025 08:11 WombaT wrote:On September 17 2025 07:47 Poopi wrote:On September 17 2025 07:22 Balnazza wrote:
[quote]
As I said earlier: In almost all of his GSL-wins there Terran was atleast normally represented in the Ro8, I think two-times Terran was even in the majority. But yes, Maru carried the race for like six months...in one region btw. Terran wasn't doing great internationally, but it was okay. At the backend of that stretch TaeJa even won two tournaments back-to-back (HSC and DreamHack). And in that very year one Terran even won GSL S3...surprise, not the "Terran Hope", but Innovation. The "Terran hope" couldn't even make it into the Ro8.
Also in that same year Maru did have the most wins in Proleague...but if you look at the individual matchups, his only noteworthy matchup winrate-wise was TvT. Bbyong and Flash, the next two best Terrans, had similiar or even better winrates against Zerg and Protoss.
So the "Terran Hope" was mostly good for...killing Terrans. Pretty sure there is a story-wise joke in there...
The sarcastic commentary aside: Maru did good in 2014. Great even. But to pretend he carried the race for the entirety of the super-duper-hardcore-elite-supreme-era of SC2 is just nonsense. Maru was carrying terran for like five years straight when it was doing, overall, poorly Like he was the sole favorite for any world championship win What 5 years? When did that happen? When is this mythical period where Maru was carrying Terran for 5 years straight? Was it when Inno won more than him? Or when we had multiple Terran GSL champions who weren’t Maru, or when a Terran who wasn’t Maru won a World Champ, or another Terran who wasn’t Maru won a World Champ? When is this mythical period? Maru carrying terran alone in both 2018 and 2019, best hope as well in IEM 2020, and until like 2022-2023. So maybe actually 6 years I can agree on from 2018 onwards until the rise of Clement (somewhere in 2023 I guess), from all the Terrans, Maru had the highest chance of winning a tournament he entered. So yes Maru can be considered the best Terran over a span of 5+ years. Did he carry? I don't think so. Most of the big titles were won by other Terrans (Oli, Clem, Inno)Fair to say for most part even Serral didn't carry his race. He always had a peer (Rogoue, Dark, Reynor) and Serral was by far the favorite to win every tournament he entered from all races How so? Clem and Oli didn't a big title in the time span you specified. Inno won WESG one time just as Maru. But Maru also won GSL 4x which Inno didn't do. TY won GSL twice but no other tournament. With which part do you disagree? Was he the best Terran? Probably, I'd personally say yes. Did he carry?. No, I don't think so The race was uncarryable for most of this timespan, since even Maru could not do it. He was the only hope for most of this era though. Like if Maru was eliminated from the tournament, you knew there was barely any chance a terran would win it Serral doesn't have to carry zerg because zerg was at best super OP, at worst equal to other races Ah yes, the return of the "Maru is a God and he only loses units because of balance"-argument. Even including Maru Terran only won 25% of tournaments and took only 23% of finalist slots during that era. Maru was responsible for the vast majority of wins and majority of finals spots. It's very likely that if Maru didn't exist they would have won <15% of events during that era and had <20% finalists. That's carrying.
Region locked should still be excluded because it was basically can Clem beat Serral. If so he wins, if not he doesn't. And he had Serrals number for part of that era. Sometimes he didn't even have to beat Serral to win those regionals as well. He never won or even made the finals of any major international during that timeframe. Regardless it really wouldn't even change that much because Terran did so abysmal during the 2018/2019 WCS circuits that Clems success in 21/22 is unlikely to change the percentages all that much. And yet, Terran was more than enough represented during tournaments. Tournament-wins don't say much in that regard tbh. As I said a while ago: In most of Marus GSL-wins Terran was well-represented in the Ro8. Also, and I know you have a fundamentally different view on this: Terran winning 25% of tournaments means nothing. Even when the game is perfectly balanced there should not be a 33% split between the races, because that would effectively mean that personal skill does not matter at all, while the opposite should be true. If the game is perfectly balanced and Maru is the almighty-god-of-perfect-play he should win all tournaments. Weirdly, that is kind of what one other dude did, casually almost doubling the amount of Premier-wins compared to the 2nd guy... You just cherry picked a few ro8s and are using that to say they had good representation. Whether you use ro8 or finals Terran did shitty in that 5 year stretch when looking at all premiers and Maru made up a substantial portion of their representation. If you subtract Marus results from that era T basically becomes extinct for that 5 year period. Meanwhile Zerg won almost 50% of events and won the most even if you subtract Serral.
"ONLY GSL COUNTS, NOTHING ELSE IS IMPORTANT!"
"Okay, but you see, in those GSLs that Maru won, Terran was pretty well represen-"
"YOU CHERRYPICK TOURNAMENTS!"
Can you please stay in one lane or the other? Terran did well enough in most of these years, the difference in prizemoney earned isn't that tremendously big, especially if you factor in the big leads that Zerg has mostly come from winning the World Championships (which, y'know, is the most important tournament anyway).
I didn't properly write it down, but by eye-test alone: Between 2018-22, the split in terms of players who played in a GSL final, the split for Protoss/Zerg/Terran is I believe 5/4/3 and the only reason Zerg isn't at 3 aswell is that one GSL Final RagnaroK/SHIN stumbled into.
What realistically happened is this: Winning a Premier event in 2018-22 is "harder" compared to before, because there are much less of them and basically all of them have all the world-class-players in them. So naturally, the amount of wins split less between the few S-Class players. Has nothing to do with Terran being oh-so-weak.
And it's not maru being the best and serral carrying that is pretty laughable when it's exactly opposite.
So you agree that Serral is the best? 
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On September 18 2025 05:36 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2025 04:40 JJH777 wrote:On September 18 2025 03:00 Balnazza wrote:On September 17 2025 23:28 Poopi wrote:On September 17 2025 18:46 Harris1st wrote:On September 17 2025 18:34 Charoisaur wrote:On September 17 2025 16:19 Harris1st wrote:On September 17 2025 08:20 Poopi wrote:On September 17 2025 08:11 WombaT wrote:On September 17 2025 07:47 Poopi wrote:
[quote]
Maru was carrying terran for like five years straight when it was doing, overall, poorly
Like he was the sole favorite for any world championship win
What 5 years? When did that happen? When is this mythical period where Maru was carrying Terran for 5 years straight? Was it when Inno won more than him? Or when we had multiple Terran GSL champions who weren’t Maru, or when a Terran who wasn’t Maru won a World Champ, or another Terran who wasn’t Maru won a World Champ? When is this mythical period? Maru carrying terran alone in both 2018 and 2019, best hope as well in IEM 2020, and until like 2022-2023. So maybe actually 6 years I can agree on from 2018 onwards until the rise of Clement (somewhere in 2023 I guess), from all the Terrans, Maru had the highest chance of winning a tournament he entered. So yes Maru can be considered the best Terran over a span of 5+ years. Did he carry? I don't think so. Most of the big titles were won by other Terrans (Oli, Clem, Inno)Fair to say for most part even Serral didn't carry his race. He always had a peer (Rogoue, Dark, Reynor) and Serral was by far the favorite to win every tournament he entered from all races How so? Clem and Oli didn't a big title in the time span you specified. Inno won WESG one time just as Maru. But Maru also won GSL 4x which Inno didn't do. TY won GSL twice but no other tournament. With which part do you disagree? Was he the best Terran? Probably, I'd personally say yes. Did he carry?. No, I don't think so The race was uncarryable for most of this timespan, since even Maru could not do it. He was the only hope for most of this era though. Like if Maru was eliminated from the tournament, you knew there was barely any chance a terran would win it Serral doesn't have to carry zerg because zerg was at best super OP, at worst equal to other races Ah yes, the return of the "Maru is a God and he only loses units because of balance"-argument. Even including Maru Terran only won 25% of tournaments and took only 23% of finalist slots during that era. Maru was responsible for the vast majority of wins and majority of finals spots. It's very likely that if Maru didn't exist they would have won <15% of events during that era and had <20% finalists. That's carrying.
Region locked should still be excluded because it was basically can Clem beat Serral. If so he wins, if not he doesn't. And he had Serrals number for part of that era. Sometimes he didn't even have to beat Serral to win those regionals as well. He never won or even made the finals of any major international during that timeframe. Regardless it really wouldn't even change that much because Terran did so abysmal during the 2018/2019 WCS circuits that Clems success in 21/22 is unlikely to change the percentages all that much. And yet, Terran was more than enough represented during tournaments. Tournament-wins don't say much in that regard tbh. As I said a while ago: In most of Marus GSL-wins Terran was well-represented in the Ro8. Also, and I know you have a fundamentally different view on this: Terran winning 25% of tournaments means nothing. Even when the game is perfectly balanced there should not be a 33% split between the races, because that would effectively mean that personal skill does not matter at all, while the opposite should be true. If the game is perfectly balanced and Maru is the almighty-god-of-perfect-play he should win all tournaments. Weirdly, that is kind of what one other dude did, casually almost doubling the amount of Premier-wins compared to the 2nd guy... You just cherry picked a few ro8s and are using that to say they had good representation. Whether you use ro8 or finals Terran did shitty in that 5 year stretch when looking at all premiers and Maru made up a substantial portion of their representation. If you subtract Marus results from that era T basically becomes extinct for that 5 year period. Meanwhile Zerg won almost 50% of events and won the most even if you subtract Serral. "ONLY GSL COUNTS, NOTHING ELSE IS IMPORTANT!" "Okay, but you see, in those GSLs that Maru won, Terran was pretty well represen-" "YOU CHERRYPICK TOURNAMENTS!" Can you please stay in one lane or the other? Terran did well enough in most of these years, the difference in prizemoney earned isn't that tremendously big, especially if you factor in the big leads that Zerg has mostly come from winning the World Championships (which, y'know, is the most important tournament anyway). I didn't properly write it down, but by eye-test alone: Between 2018-22, the split in terms of players who played in a GSL final, the split for Protoss/Zerg/Terran is I believe 5/4/3 and the only reason Zerg isn't at 3 aswell is that one GSL Final RagnaroK/SHIN stumbled into. What realistically happened is this: Winning a Premier event in 2018-22 is "harder" compared to before, because there are much less of them and basically all of them have all the world-class-players in them. So naturally, the amount of wins split less between the few S-Class players. Has nothing to do with Terran being oh-so-weak. Show nested quote +And it's not maru being the best and serral carrying that is pretty laughable when it's exactly opposite. So you agree that Serral is the best?
Now you're just making stuff up. Find a time I said only GSL matters. I've said GSL (and OSL/SSL) was the hardest tournament before the rise of Serral and that you can't retroactively devalue those GSLs just because Serral became good. I've never said they are the only thing that matter. I've said only non region locked events (which includes a lot more than GSL) matter which I stand by and nothing in that post disagreed with.
Terran was underrepresented in that 5 year stretch no matter what metric is used and Maru made up a very disproportionate amount of that representation.
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Northern Ireland25665 Posts
On September 18 2025 05:36 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2025 04:40 JJH777 wrote:On September 18 2025 03:00 Balnazza wrote:On September 17 2025 23:28 Poopi wrote:On September 17 2025 18:46 Harris1st wrote:On September 17 2025 18:34 Charoisaur wrote:On September 17 2025 16:19 Harris1st wrote:On September 17 2025 08:20 Poopi wrote:On September 17 2025 08:11 WombaT wrote:On September 17 2025 07:47 Poopi wrote:
[quote]
Maru was carrying terran for like five years straight when it was doing, overall, poorly
Like he was the sole favorite for any world championship win
What 5 years? When did that happen? When is this mythical period where Maru was carrying Terran for 5 years straight? Was it when Inno won more than him? Or when we had multiple Terran GSL champions who weren’t Maru, or when a Terran who wasn’t Maru won a World Champ, or another Terran who wasn’t Maru won a World Champ? When is this mythical period? Maru carrying terran alone in both 2018 and 2019, best hope as well in IEM 2020, and until like 2022-2023. So maybe actually 6 years I can agree on from 2018 onwards until the rise of Clement (somewhere in 2023 I guess), from all the Terrans, Maru had the highest chance of winning a tournament he entered. So yes Maru can be considered the best Terran over a span of 5+ years. Did he carry? I don't think so. Most of the big titles were won by other Terrans (Oli, Clem, Inno)Fair to say for most part even Serral didn't carry his race. He always had a peer (Rogoue, Dark, Reynor) and Serral was by far the favorite to win every tournament he entered from all races How so? Clem and Oli didn't a big title in the time span you specified. Inno won WESG one time just as Maru. But Maru also won GSL 4x which Inno didn't do. TY won GSL twice but no other tournament. With which part do you disagree? Was he the best Terran? Probably, I'd personally say yes. Did he carry?. No, I don't think so The race was uncarryable for most of this timespan, since even Maru could not do it. He was the only hope for most of this era though. Like if Maru was eliminated from the tournament, you knew there was barely any chance a terran would win it Serral doesn't have to carry zerg because zerg was at best super OP, at worst equal to other races Ah yes, the return of the "Maru is a God and he only loses units because of balance"-argument. Even including Maru Terran only won 25% of tournaments and took only 23% of finalist slots during that era. Maru was responsible for the vast majority of wins and majority of finals spots. It's very likely that if Maru didn't exist they would have won <15% of events during that era and had <20% finalists. That's carrying.
Region locked should still be excluded because it was basically can Clem beat Serral. If so he wins, if not he doesn't. And he had Serrals number for part of that era. Sometimes he didn't even have to beat Serral to win those regionals as well. He never won or even made the finals of any major international during that timeframe. Regardless it really wouldn't even change that much because Terran did so abysmal during the 2018/2019 WCS circuits that Clems success in 21/22 is unlikely to change the percentages all that much. And yet, Terran was more than enough represented during tournaments. Tournament-wins don't say much in that regard tbh. As I said a while ago: In most of Marus GSL-wins Terran was well-represented in the Ro8. Also, and I know you have a fundamentally different view on this: Terran winning 25% of tournaments means nothing. Even when the game is perfectly balanced there should not be a 33% split between the races, because that would effectively mean that personal skill does not matter at all, while the opposite should be true. If the game is perfectly balanced and Maru is the almighty-god-of-perfect-play he should win all tournaments. Weirdly, that is kind of what one other dude did, casually almost doubling the amount of Premier-wins compared to the 2nd guy... You just cherry picked a few ro8s and are using that to say they had good representation. Whether you use ro8 or finals Terran did shitty in that 5 year stretch when looking at all premiers and Maru made up a substantial portion of their representation. If you subtract Marus results from that era T basically becomes extinct for that 5 year period. Meanwhile Zerg won almost 50% of events and won the most even if you subtract Serral. "ONLY GSL COUNTS, NOTHING ELSE IS IMPORTANT!" "Okay, but you see, in those GSLs that Maru won, Terran was pretty well represen-" "YOU CHERRYPICK TOURNAMENTS!" Can you please stay in one lane or the other? Terran did well enough in most of these years, the difference in prizemoney earned isn't that tremendously big, especially if you factor in the big leads that Zerg has mostly come from winning the World Championships (which, y'know, is the most important tournament anyway). I didn't properly write it down, but by eye-test alone: Between 2018-22, the split in terms of players who played in a GSL final, the split for Protoss/Zerg/Terran is I believe 5/4/3 and the only reason Zerg isn't at 3 aswell is that one GSL Final RagnaroK/SHIN stumbled into. What realistically happened is this: Winning a Premier event in 2018-22 is "harder" compared to before, because there are much less of them and basically all of them have all the world-class-players in them. So naturally, the amount of wins split less between the few S-Class players. Has nothing to do with Terran being oh-so-weak. Show nested quote +And it's not maru being the best and serral carrying that is pretty laughable when it's exactly opposite. So you agree that Serral is the best?
Look bro it’s pretty simple, let me break it down.
Maru is the best and carried Terran, and Serral can’t be the GOAT because his rise was after Kespa.
But Maru got outperformed by another Terran in the Kespa era, but Maru was by a distance the best Terran in the very same epoch we say doesn’t count for Serral to be the GOAT. Also Maru’s fantastic 2018 is proof of his greatness, but 2019 and onwards? Man we’re in the weak era then!
Also, ya gotta win GSL, it’s where the best of the best play, and ya gotta beat the best in its unique prep format. Of course, Serral not being there is an asterix on his GOAT claim, but his absence is not relevant despite, outside genuinely insane people him being at least in the top 4 players in the world for like 7 years.
Also the guy who carries Terran not winning a WC, despite being active since WoL, and if my working is correct, five other Terrans have done it. Mvp, MMA, Byun, Oliveira, Clem right?
The most frustrating part of all this for yours truly? I do genuinely think Maru has a pretty good claim in many ways, although he wouldn’t be my vote for #1. His sheer ability at the game, his longevity, his many titles are all pretty good things to combine and make that claim.
I only really think Serral is better because of his mentality, not latent ability. Just as I rate Maru higher than Inno because over time he remained at the top of the game longer, and then considerably longer.
I just don’t see why we need circuitous, often contradictory arguments to anoint Maru. He is basically the only player people do this for, even going back years when it was ‘oh he’s jet lagged’ or whatever else when he couldn’t win outside of Korea
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On September 18 2025 05:36 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2025 04:40 JJH777 wrote:On September 18 2025 03:00 Balnazza wrote:On September 17 2025 23:28 Poopi wrote:On September 17 2025 18:46 Harris1st wrote:On September 17 2025 18:34 Charoisaur wrote:On September 17 2025 16:19 Harris1st wrote:On September 17 2025 08:20 Poopi wrote:On September 17 2025 08:11 WombaT wrote:On September 17 2025 07:47 Poopi wrote:
[quote]
Maru was carrying terran for like five years straight when it was doing, overall, poorly
Like he was the sole favorite for any world championship win
What 5 years? When did that happen? When is this mythical period where Maru was carrying Terran for 5 years straight? Was it when Inno won more than him? Or when we had multiple Terran GSL champions who weren’t Maru, or when a Terran who wasn’t Maru won a World Champ, or another Terran who wasn’t Maru won a World Champ? When is this mythical period? Maru carrying terran alone in both 2018 and 2019, best hope as well in IEM 2020, and until like 2022-2023. So maybe actually 6 years I can agree on from 2018 onwards until the rise of Clement (somewhere in 2023 I guess), from all the Terrans, Maru had the highest chance of winning a tournament he entered. So yes Maru can be considered the best Terran over a span of 5+ years. Did he carry? I don't think so. Most of the big titles were won by other Terrans (Oli, Clem, Inno)Fair to say for most part even Serral didn't carry his race. He always had a peer (Rogoue, Dark, Reynor) and Serral was by far the favorite to win every tournament he entered from all races How so? Clem and Oli didn't a big title in the time span you specified. Inno won WESG one time just as Maru. But Maru also won GSL 4x which Inno didn't do. TY won GSL twice but no other tournament. With which part do you disagree? Was he the best Terran? Probably, I'd personally say yes. Did he carry?. No, I don't think so The race was uncarryable for most of this timespan, since even Maru could not do it. He was the only hope for most of this era though. Like if Maru was eliminated from the tournament, you knew there was barely any chance a terran would win it Serral doesn't have to carry zerg because zerg was at best super OP, at worst equal to other races Ah yes, the return of the "Maru is a God and he only loses units because of balance"-argument. Even including Maru Terran only won 25% of tournaments and took only 23% of finalist slots during that era. Maru was responsible for the vast majority of wins and majority of finals spots. It's very likely that if Maru didn't exist they would have won <15% of events during that era and had <20% finalists. That's carrying.
Region locked should still be excluded because it was basically can Clem beat Serral. If so he wins, if not he doesn't. And he had Serrals number for part of that era. Sometimes he didn't even have to beat Serral to win those regionals as well. He never won or even made the finals of any major international during that timeframe. Regardless it really wouldn't even change that much because Terran did so abysmal during the 2018/2019 WCS circuits that Clems success in 21/22 is unlikely to change the percentages all that much. And yet, Terran was more than enough represented during tournaments. Tournament-wins don't say much in that regard tbh. As I said a while ago: In most of Marus GSL-wins Terran was well-represented in the Ro8. Also, and I know you have a fundamentally different view on this: Terran winning 25% of tournaments means nothing. Even when the game is perfectly balanced there should not be a 33% split between the races, because that would effectively mean that personal skill does not matter at all, while the opposite should be true. If the game is perfectly balanced and Maru is the almighty-god-of-perfect-play he should win all tournaments. Weirdly, that is kind of what one other dude did, casually almost doubling the amount of Premier-wins compared to the 2nd guy... You just cherry picked a few ro8s and are using that to say they had good representation. Whether you use ro8 or finals Terran did shitty in that 5 year stretch when looking at all premiers and Maru made up a substantial portion of their representation. If you subtract Marus results from that era T basically becomes extinct for that 5 year period. Meanwhile Zerg won almost 50% of events and won the most even if you subtract Serral. "ONLY GSL COUNTS, NOTHING ELSE IS IMPORTANT!" "Okay, but you see, in those GSLs that Maru won, Terran was pretty well represen-" "YOU CHERRYPICK TOURNAMENTS!" Can you please stay in one lane or the other? Terran did well enough in most of these years, the difference in prizemoney earned isn't that tremendously big, especially if you factor in the big leads that Zerg has mostly come from winning the World Championships (which, y'know, is the most important tournament anyway). I didn't properly write it down, but by eye-test alone: Between 2018-22, the split in terms of players who played in a GSL final, the split for Protoss/Zerg/Terran is I believe 5/4/3 and the only reason Zerg isn't at 3 aswell is that one GSL Final RagnaroK/SHIN stumbled into. What realistically happened is this: Winning a Premier event in 2018-22 is "harder" compared to before, because there are much less of them and basically all of them have all the world-class-players in them. So naturally, the amount of wins split less between the few S-Class players. Has nothing to do with Terran being oh-so-weak. Show nested quote +And it's not maru being the best and serral carrying that is pretty laughable when it's exactly opposite. So you agree that Serral is the best?
I posted pictures as evidence but you have no real response to it. Shamelessly dishonest discussion.
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On September 18 2025 06:32 Pentarp wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2025 05:36 Balnazza wrote:On September 18 2025 04:40 JJH777 wrote:On September 18 2025 03:00 Balnazza wrote:On September 17 2025 23:28 Poopi wrote:On September 17 2025 18:46 Harris1st wrote:On September 17 2025 18:34 Charoisaur wrote:On September 17 2025 16:19 Harris1st wrote:On September 17 2025 08:20 Poopi wrote:On September 17 2025 08:11 WombaT wrote:
[quote]
What 5 years? When did that happen? When is this mythical period where Maru was carrying Terran for 5 years straight?
Was it when Inno won more than him? Or when we had multiple Terran GSL champions who weren’t Maru, or when a Terran who wasn’t Maru won a World Champ, or another Terran who wasn’t Maru won a World Champ?
When is this mythical period? Maru carrying terran alone in both 2018 and 2019, best hope as well in IEM 2020, and until like 2022-2023. So maybe actually 6 years I can agree on from 2018 onwards until the rise of Clement (somewhere in 2023 I guess), from all the Terrans, Maru had the highest chance of winning a tournament he entered. So yes Maru can be considered the best Terran over a span of 5+ years. Did he carry? I don't think so. Most of the big titles were won by other Terrans (Oli, Clem, Inno)Fair to say for most part even Serral didn't carry his race. He always had a peer (Rogoue, Dark, Reynor) and Serral was by far the favorite to win every tournament he entered from all races How so? Clem and Oli didn't a big title in the time span you specified. Inno won WESG one time just as Maru. But Maru also won GSL 4x which Inno didn't do. TY won GSL twice but no other tournament. With which part do you disagree? Was he the best Terran? Probably, I'd personally say yes. Did he carry?. No, I don't think so The race was uncarryable for most of this timespan, since even Maru could not do it. He was the only hope for most of this era though. Like if Maru was eliminated from the tournament, you knew there was barely any chance a terran would win it Serral doesn't have to carry zerg because zerg was at best super OP, at worst equal to other races Ah yes, the return of the "Maru is a God and he only loses units because of balance"-argument. Even including Maru Terran only won 25% of tournaments and took only 23% of finalist slots during that era. Maru was responsible for the vast majority of wins and majority of finals spots. It's very likely that if Maru didn't exist they would have won <15% of events during that era and had <20% finalists. That's carrying.
Region locked should still be excluded because it was basically can Clem beat Serral. If so he wins, if not he doesn't. And he had Serrals number for part of that era. Sometimes he didn't even have to beat Serral to win those regionals as well. He never won or even made the finals of any major international during that timeframe. Regardless it really wouldn't even change that much because Terran did so abysmal during the 2018/2019 WCS circuits that Clems success in 21/22 is unlikely to change the percentages all that much. And yet, Terran was more than enough represented during tournaments. Tournament-wins don't say much in that regard tbh. As I said a while ago: In most of Marus GSL-wins Terran was well-represented in the Ro8. Also, and I know you have a fundamentally different view on this: Terran winning 25% of tournaments means nothing. Even when the game is perfectly balanced there should not be a 33% split between the races, because that would effectively mean that personal skill does not matter at all, while the opposite should be true. If the game is perfectly balanced and Maru is the almighty-god-of-perfect-play he should win all tournaments. Weirdly, that is kind of what one other dude did, casually almost doubling the amount of Premier-wins compared to the 2nd guy... You just cherry picked a few ro8s and are using that to say they had good representation. Whether you use ro8 or finals Terran did shitty in that 5 year stretch when looking at all premiers and Maru made up a substantial portion of their representation. If you subtract Marus results from that era T basically becomes extinct for that 5 year period. Meanwhile Zerg won almost 50% of events and won the most even if you subtract Serral. "ONLY GSL COUNTS, NOTHING ELSE IS IMPORTANT!" "Okay, but you see, in those GSLs that Maru won, Terran was pretty well represen-" "YOU CHERRYPICK TOURNAMENTS!" Can you please stay in one lane or the other? Terran did well enough in most of these years, the difference in prizemoney earned isn't that tremendously big, especially if you factor in the big leads that Zerg has mostly come from winning the World Championships (which, y'know, is the most important tournament anyway). I didn't properly write it down, but by eye-test alone: Between 2018-22, the split in terms of players who played in a GSL final, the split for Protoss/Zerg/Terran is I believe 5/4/3 and the only reason Zerg isn't at 3 aswell is that one GSL Final RagnaroK/SHIN stumbled into. What realistically happened is this: Winning a Premier event in 2018-22 is "harder" compared to before, because there are much less of them and basically all of them have all the world-class-players in them. So naturally, the amount of wins split less between the few S-Class players. Has nothing to do with Terran being oh-so-weak. And it's not maru being the best and serral carrying that is pretty laughable when it's exactly opposite. So you agree that Serral is the best? I posted pictures as evidence but you have no real response to it. Shamelessly dishonest discussion.
I'm trying so hard to be polite right now...but you posted two(?) screenshots of a Liquipedia-Statistic I already looked at multiple times throughout the discussion in the last few days. I even based some of my arguments on these.
How am I supposed to "respond" to raw data? Sorry, but if you are too lazy to make up a real argument and articulate your train of thought, just don't participate?
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On September 18 2025 05:44 JJH777 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2025 05:36 Balnazza wrote:On September 18 2025 04:40 JJH777 wrote:On September 18 2025 03:00 Balnazza wrote:On September 17 2025 23:28 Poopi wrote:On September 17 2025 18:46 Harris1st wrote:On September 17 2025 18:34 Charoisaur wrote:On September 17 2025 16:19 Harris1st wrote:On September 17 2025 08:20 Poopi wrote:On September 17 2025 08:11 WombaT wrote:
[quote]
What 5 years? When did that happen? When is this mythical period where Maru was carrying Terran for 5 years straight?
Was it when Inno won more than him? Or when we had multiple Terran GSL champions who weren’t Maru, or when a Terran who wasn’t Maru won a World Champ, or another Terran who wasn’t Maru won a World Champ?
When is this mythical period? Maru carrying terran alone in both 2018 and 2019, best hope as well in IEM 2020, and until like 2022-2023. So maybe actually 6 years I can agree on from 2018 onwards until the rise of Clement (somewhere in 2023 I guess), from all the Terrans, Maru had the highest chance of winning a tournament he entered. So yes Maru can be considered the best Terran over a span of 5+ years. Did he carry? I don't think so. Most of the big titles were won by other Terrans (Oli, Clem, Inno)Fair to say for most part even Serral didn't carry his race. He always had a peer (Rogoue, Dark, Reynor) and Serral was by far the favorite to win every tournament he entered from all races How so? Clem and Oli didn't a big title in the time span you specified. Inno won WESG one time just as Maru. But Maru also won GSL 4x which Inno didn't do. TY won GSL twice but no other tournament. With which part do you disagree? Was he the best Terran? Probably, I'd personally say yes. Did he carry?. No, I don't think so The race was uncarryable for most of this timespan, since even Maru could not do it. He was the only hope for most of this era though. Like if Maru was eliminated from the tournament, you knew there was barely any chance a terran would win it Serral doesn't have to carry zerg because zerg was at best super OP, at worst equal to other races Ah yes, the return of the "Maru is a God and he only loses units because of balance"-argument. Even including Maru Terran only won 25% of tournaments and took only 23% of finalist slots during that era. Maru was responsible for the vast majority of wins and majority of finals spots. It's very likely that if Maru didn't exist they would have won <15% of events during that era and had <20% finalists. That's carrying.
Region locked should still be excluded because it was basically can Clem beat Serral. If so he wins, if not he doesn't. And he had Serrals number for part of that era. Sometimes he didn't even have to beat Serral to win those regionals as well. He never won or even made the finals of any major international during that timeframe. Regardless it really wouldn't even change that much because Terran did so abysmal during the 2018/2019 WCS circuits that Clems success in 21/22 is unlikely to change the percentages all that much. And yet, Terran was more than enough represented during tournaments. Tournament-wins don't say much in that regard tbh. As I said a while ago: In most of Marus GSL-wins Terran was well-represented in the Ro8. Also, and I know you have a fundamentally different view on this: Terran winning 25% of tournaments means nothing. Even when the game is perfectly balanced there should not be a 33% split between the races, because that would effectively mean that personal skill does not matter at all, while the opposite should be true. If the game is perfectly balanced and Maru is the almighty-god-of-perfect-play he should win all tournaments. Weirdly, that is kind of what one other dude did, casually almost doubling the amount of Premier-wins compared to the 2nd guy... You just cherry picked a few ro8s and are using that to say they had good representation. Whether you use ro8 or finals Terran did shitty in that 5 year stretch when looking at all premiers and Maru made up a substantial portion of their representation. If you subtract Marus results from that era T basically becomes extinct for that 5 year period. Meanwhile Zerg won almost 50% of events and won the most even if you subtract Serral. "ONLY GSL COUNTS, NOTHING ELSE IS IMPORTANT!" "Okay, but you see, in those GSLs that Maru won, Terran was pretty well represen-" "YOU CHERRYPICK TOURNAMENTS!" Can you please stay in one lane or the other? Terran did well enough in most of these years, the difference in prizemoney earned isn't that tremendously big, especially if you factor in the big leads that Zerg has mostly come from winning the World Championships (which, y'know, is the most important tournament anyway). I didn't properly write it down, but by eye-test alone: Between 2018-22, the split in terms of players who played in a GSL final, the split for Protoss/Zerg/Terran is I believe 5/4/3 and the only reason Zerg isn't at 3 aswell is that one GSL Final RagnaroK/SHIN stumbled into. What realistically happened is this: Winning a Premier event in 2018-22 is "harder" compared to before, because there are much less of them and basically all of them have all the world-class-players in them. So naturally, the amount of wins split less between the few S-Class players. Has nothing to do with Terran being oh-so-weak. And it's not maru being the best and serral carrying that is pretty laughable when it's exactly opposite. So you agree that Serral is the best? Now you're just making stuff up. Find a time I said only GSL matters. I've said GSL (and OSL/SSL) was the hardest tournament before the rise of Serral and that you can't retroactively devalue those GSLs just because Serral became good. I've never said they are the only thing that matter. I've said only non region locked events (which includes a lot more than GSL) matter which I stand by and nothing in that post disagreed with. Terran was underrepresented in that 5 year stretch no matter what metric is used and Maru made up a very disproportionate amount of that representation.
How is Terran underrepresented in those five years?
Again, by Ro8, the World Championships:
2018: 3
2019: 1 (clearly a misbalance in that year with 5 Zergs)
2020: Didn't have a WC (atleast in my counting), but if you want to use Katowice 2020, it was 2 Terrans
2021: 3 Terrans
2022: 3 Terrans
2023: 2 Terrans, but those two would end up being in the finals and the winner would be...not the "Terran Hope".
So except for one year, Terran was well-represented enough in the most important tournament of the year.
Of course you could now expend that, which I won't, to lower rounds. Kato '23, the Tab I had open now, even had a perfect split in the Ro36 with the most Terrans advancing to the Group Stage proper, but as I said, that Tab was just now open, so I don't know how the rest looks.
So what is the argument here? Yes, Maru was the best Terran for five years. No, he didn't "carry his race", that's just nonsense. Because for that Terran had to be down much more in the dumpster than it was. Now, you can disagree with that and pretend like SC2 is the most unbalanced game ever and poor Maru had no real shot at being the best, but in that case there isn't a GOAT to begin with, because there is no competitive SC2. It's just a scam, not competitiv at all and therefore it makes no sense to even talk about the GOAT.
Dunno about you, put I prefer to rather just look at the stats and how things happened instead if imaginary and retroactively changing the balance-narrative to fit one players legacy. And all the stats kind of point to a different guy, sorry...
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On September 18 2025 04:20 WombaT wrote:
Maru fans making the argument he’s the GOAT…
A tale as old as time.
On September 18 2025 05:44 JJH777 wrote:
Now you're just making stuff up. Find a time I said only GSL matters. I've said GSL (and OSL/SSL) was the hardest tournament before the rise of Serral and that you can't retroactively devalue those GSLs just because Serral became good. I've never said they are the only thing that matter. I've said only non region locked events (which includes a lot more than GSL) matter which I stand by and nothing in that post disagreed with.
Terran was underrepresented in that 5 year stretch no matter what metric is used and Maru made up a very disproportionate amount of that representation.
To add to the argument: GSL was also regionlocked. You had to live in Korea for extented periods to participate or travel back and forth every other day. Kind of why Serral never participated...
So by your rules you have to disregard GSLs
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EPT![[image loading]](https://www.meme-arsenal.com/memes/2be3dfeca55920b04b0fd358cc4221a5.jpg)
