|
On September 18 2025 17:07 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2025 04:20 WombaT wrote:
Maru fans making the argument he’s the GOAT…
A tale as old as time. Show nested quote +On September 18 2025 05:44 JJH777 wrote:
Now you're just making stuff up. Find a time I said only GSL matters. I've said GSL (and OSL/SSL) was the hardest tournament before the rise of Serral and that you can't retroactively devalue those GSLs just because Serral became good. I've never said they are the only thing that matter. I've said only non region locked events (which includes a lot more than GSL) matter which I stand by and nothing in that post disagreed with.
Terran was underrepresented in that 5 year stretch no matter what metric is used and Maru made up a very disproportionate amount of that representation. To add to the argument: GSL was also regionlocked. You had to live in Korea for extented periods to participate or travel back and forth every other day. Kind of why Serral never participated... So by your rules you have to disregard GSLs
By your logic every sports competition in the world is region locked. Because you have to stay for extended periods of time where the event is taking place. Believe it or not the world cup is region locked because you have to go to the tournament and stay there instead of living in your home country.
Lmao c'mon man. Region lock obviously refers to the fact that you are BARRED from entering these events. Not that you would need to travel.
|
On September 16 2025 02:32 ejozl wrote:
I's talking about my infamous prize earnings calculation that I updated, that's where era and balance extra points only come in on tournaments within the criteria(kr qualifiers&lan). This is why a taeja won hsc is 4 times more worth than a serral hsc win, because there were a gsl like qualifier to get there, and why I still think he holds the title for most hsc wins and consecutive wins.
You can call it shite, but it's pretty consistent shite, it's got loads of fiber.
It could be that both michael Jordan is the GOAT in that he was a one of, but probably not result wise, which is what I'm measuring, so unless that era was much stronger than the other eras he wouldn't have a shot in my rating. In that same way it could be that serral is the perfect specimen, but without the competition to test him up against, he's not my goat, at least not yet.
I find the idea strange that an invitational - which is completely stacked - should count less than a qualifier-tournament like GPC 2019 or StarsWar 11. In my opinion, a tournament's value is determined by the class of the participated players, the format and - a bit more subjective - the prestige.
Prize money simply isn't a good metric for all the reasons I pointed out in the other thread and I think many inbuilt weaknesses of your analysis lead to such differing results in relation to other lists.
But if that is how you value your GOAT, more power to you. To me, it seems at times that your list's multipliers are plucked out of thin air and some of the derivations that you base them on - at least to me - are intransparent or simply illogical. But to each their own, I guess.
And your methodology being consistent does not tell us much about its value. One can consistently miscalculate a plus and a minus... that wouldn't make the result anymore correct either, even it was consistent 
On September 19 2025 03:03 JJH777 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2025 17:07 Harris1st wrote:On September 18 2025 04:20 WombaT wrote:
Maru fans making the argument he’s the GOAT…
A tale as old as time. On September 18 2025 05:44 JJH777 wrote:
Now you're just making stuff up. Find a time I said only GSL matters. I've said GSL (and OSL/SSL) was the hardest tournament before the rise of Serral and that you can't retroactively devalue those GSLs just because Serral became good. I've never said they are the only thing that matter. I've said only non region locked events (which includes a lot more than GSL) matter which I stand by and nothing in that post disagreed with.
Terran was underrepresented in that 5 year stretch no matter what metric is used and Maru made up a very disproportionate amount of that representation. To add to the argument: GSL was also regionlocked. You had to live in Korea for extented periods to participate or travel back and forth every other day. Kind of why Serral never participated... So by your rules you have to disregard GSLs They are objectively not region locked. You have to be present for your games. Where you have citizenship or permanent residency doesn't matter. Everyone is welcome as long as you play in person. Every notable foreigner besides Serral (and now Clem but he didn't become notable until post COVID so it's more understandable) tried GSL at least once.
What difference does it make, when the amount of foreigners who played GSL over the years is roughly the same as Koreans who lived abroad playing region-locks? Isn't the idea to penalize tournaments because they were not as open as others? So if the result for both is the same and the world's best players (at least many out of the top 10) have not participated in GSL regularly, then it should be devalued the same way other tournaments get devalued too, no?
To me at least, actual quality of participating players is more important than accessibility in this context, especially as an unfair practice has been managed by it.
On September 20 2025 02:31 Moonerz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2025 17:07 Harris1st wrote:On September 18 2025 04:20 WombaT wrote:
Maru fans making the argument he’s the GOAT…
A tale as old as time. On September 18 2025 05:44 JJH777 wrote:
Now you're just making stuff up. Find a time I said only GSL matters. I've said GSL (and OSL/SSL) was the hardest tournament before the rise of Serral and that you can't retroactively devalue those GSLs just because Serral became good. I've never said they are the only thing that matter. I've said only non region locked events (which includes a lot more than GSL) matter which I stand by and nothing in that post disagreed with.
Terran was underrepresented in that 5 year stretch no matter what metric is used and Maru made up a very disproportionate amount of that representation. To add to the argument: GSL was also regionlocked. You had to live in Korea for extented periods to participate or travel back and forth every other day. Kind of why Serral never participated... So by your rules you have to disregard GSLs By your logic every sports competition in the world is region locked. Because you have to stay for extended periods of time where the event is taking place. Believe it or not the world cup is region locked because you have to go to the tournament and stay there instead of living in your home country. Lmao c'mon man. Region lock obviously refers to the fact that you are BARRED from entering these events. Not that you would need to travel.
For the WC, everyone needs to travel, except one nation. In a GSL all other nations need to travel to Korea. For 2-3 months. The soccer world championship for example only lasted one.
|
On September 18 2025 08:25 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2025 06:32 Pentarp wrote:On September 18 2025 05:36 Balnazza wrote:On September 18 2025 04:40 JJH777 wrote:On September 18 2025 03:00 Balnazza wrote:On September 17 2025 23:28 Poopi wrote:On September 17 2025 18:46 Harris1st wrote:On September 17 2025 18:34 Charoisaur wrote:On September 17 2025 16:19 Harris1st wrote:On September 17 2025 08:20 Poopi wrote:
[quote]
Maru carrying terran alone in both 2018 and 2019, best hope as well in IEM 2020, and until like 2022-2023.
So maybe actually 6 years I can agree on from 2018 onwards until the rise of Clement (somewhere in 2023 I guess), from all the Terrans, Maru had the highest chance of winning a tournament he entered. So yes Maru can be considered the best Terran over a span of 5+ years. Did he carry? I don't think so. Most of the big titles were won by other Terrans (Oli, Clem, Inno)Fair to say for most part even Serral didn't carry his race. He always had a peer (Rogoue, Dark, Reynor) and Serral was by far the favorite to win every tournament he entered from all races How so? Clem and Oli didn't a big title in the time span you specified. Inno won WESG one time just as Maru. But Maru also won GSL 4x which Inno didn't do. TY won GSL twice but no other tournament. With which part do you disagree? Was he the best Terran? Probably, I'd personally say yes. Did he carry?. No, I don't think so The race was uncarryable for most of this timespan, since even Maru could not do it. He was the only hope for most of this era though. Like if Maru was eliminated from the tournament, you knew there was barely any chance a terran would win it Serral doesn't have to carry zerg because zerg was at best super OP, at worst equal to other races Ah yes, the return of the "Maru is a God and he only loses units because of balance"-argument. Even including Maru Terran only won 25% of tournaments and took only 23% of finalist slots during that era. Maru was responsible for the vast majority of wins and majority of finals spots. It's very likely that if Maru didn't exist they would have won <15% of events during that era and had <20% finalists. That's carrying.
Region locked should still be excluded because it was basically can Clem beat Serral. If so he wins, if not he doesn't. And he had Serrals number for part of that era. Sometimes he didn't even have to beat Serral to win those regionals as well. He never won or even made the finals of any major international during that timeframe. Regardless it really wouldn't even change that much because Terran did so abysmal during the 2018/2019 WCS circuits that Clems success in 21/22 is unlikely to change the percentages all that much. And yet, Terran was more than enough represented during tournaments. Tournament-wins don't say much in that regard tbh. As I said a while ago: In most of Marus GSL-wins Terran was well-represented in the Ro8. Also, and I know you have a fundamentally different view on this: Terran winning 25% of tournaments means nothing. Even when the game is perfectly balanced there should not be a 33% split between the races, because that would effectively mean that personal skill does not matter at all, while the opposite should be true. If the game is perfectly balanced and Maru is the almighty-god-of-perfect-play he should win all tournaments. Weirdly, that is kind of what one other dude did, casually almost doubling the amount of Premier-wins compared to the 2nd guy... You just cherry picked a few ro8s and are using that to say they had good representation. Whether you use ro8 or finals Terran did shitty in that 5 year stretch when looking at all premiers and Maru made up a substantial portion of their representation. If you subtract Marus results from that era T basically becomes extinct for that 5 year period. Meanwhile Zerg won almost 50% of events and won the most even if you subtract Serral. "ONLY GSL COUNTS, NOTHING ELSE IS IMPORTANT!" "Okay, but you see, in those GSLs that Maru won, Terran was pretty well represen-" "YOU CHERRYPICK TOURNAMENTS!" Can you please stay in one lane or the other? Terran did well enough in most of these years, the difference in prizemoney earned isn't that tremendously big, especially if you factor in the big leads that Zerg has mostly come from winning the World Championships (which, y'know, is the most important tournament anyway). I didn't properly write it down, but by eye-test alone: Between 2018-22, the split in terms of players who played in a GSL final, the split for Protoss/Zerg/Terran is I believe 5/4/3 and the only reason Zerg isn't at 3 aswell is that one GSL Final RagnaroK/SHIN stumbled into. What realistically happened is this: Winning a Premier event in 2018-22 is "harder" compared to before, because there are much less of them and basically all of them have all the world-class-players in them. So naturally, the amount of wins split less between the few S-Class players. Has nothing to do with Terran being oh-so-weak. And it's not maru being the best and serral carrying that is pretty laughable when it's exactly opposite. So you agree that Serral is the best?  I posted pictures as evidence but you have no real response to it. Shamelessly dishonest discussion. I'm trying so hard to be polite right now...but you posted two(?) screenshots of a Liquipedia-Statistic I already looked at multiple times throughout the discussion in the last few days. I even based some of my arguments on these. How am I supposed to "respond" to raw data? Sorry, but if you are too lazy to make up a real argument and articulate your train of thought, just don't participate?
It's not insurmountable amount of raw data. Two screenshots that summarized the winners and runner ups of major tournaments in year 2018. The pictures speak for themselves. But since you need to be spoonfed, I'll oblige.
TL(I guess?)DR: Only Maru was winning big tournaments for Terran while other races had multiple champions. When it came to runner-ups, TY and Inno come up once each while the rest of the runner-ups were all non-Terrans.
|
Northern Ireland26505 Posts
On September 20 2025 11:59 Pentarp wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2025 08:25 Balnazza wrote:On September 18 2025 06:32 Pentarp wrote:On September 18 2025 05:36 Balnazza wrote:On September 18 2025 04:40 JJH777 wrote:On September 18 2025 03:00 Balnazza wrote:On September 17 2025 23:28 Poopi wrote:On September 17 2025 18:46 Harris1st wrote:On September 17 2025 18:34 Charoisaur wrote:On September 17 2025 16:19 Harris1st wrote:
[quote]
I can agree on from 2018 onwards until the rise of Clement (somewhere in 2023 I guess), from all the Terrans, Maru had the highest chance of winning a tournament he entered.
So yes Maru can be considered the best Terran over a span of 5+ years. Did he carry? I don't think so. Most of the big titles were won by other Terrans (Oli, Clem, Inno)
Fair to say for most part even Serral didn't carry his race. He always had a peer (Rogoue, Dark, Reynor) and Serral was by far the favorite to win every tournament he entered from all races
How so? Clem and Oli didn't a big title in the time span you specified. Inno won WESG one time just as Maru. But Maru also won GSL 4x which Inno didn't do. TY won GSL twice but no other tournament. With which part do you disagree? Was he the best Terran? Probably, I'd personally say yes. Did he carry?. No, I don't think so The race was uncarryable for most of this timespan, since even Maru could not do it. He was the only hope for most of this era though. Like if Maru was eliminated from the tournament, you knew there was barely any chance a terran would win it Serral doesn't have to carry zerg because zerg was at best super OP, at worst equal to other races Ah yes, the return of the "Maru is a God and he only loses units because of balance"-argument. Even including Maru Terran only won 25% of tournaments and took only 23% of finalist slots during that era. Maru was responsible for the vast majority of wins and majority of finals spots. It's very likely that if Maru didn't exist they would have won <15% of events during that era and had <20% finalists. That's carrying.
Region locked should still be excluded because it was basically can Clem beat Serral. If so he wins, if not he doesn't. And he had Serrals number for part of that era. Sometimes he didn't even have to beat Serral to win those regionals as well. He never won or even made the finals of any major international during that timeframe. Regardless it really wouldn't even change that much because Terran did so abysmal during the 2018/2019 WCS circuits that Clems success in 21/22 is unlikely to change the percentages all that much. And yet, Terran was more than enough represented during tournaments. Tournament-wins don't say much in that regard tbh. As I said a while ago: In most of Marus GSL-wins Terran was well-represented in the Ro8. Also, and I know you have a fundamentally different view on this: Terran winning 25% of tournaments means nothing. Even when the game is perfectly balanced there should not be a 33% split between the races, because that would effectively mean that personal skill does not matter at all, while the opposite should be true. If the game is perfectly balanced and Maru is the almighty-god-of-perfect-play he should win all tournaments. Weirdly, that is kind of what one other dude did, casually almost doubling the amount of Premier-wins compared to the 2nd guy... You just cherry picked a few ro8s and are using that to say they had good representation. Whether you use ro8 or finals Terran did shitty in that 5 year stretch when looking at all premiers and Maru made up a substantial portion of their representation. If you subtract Marus results from that era T basically becomes extinct for that 5 year period. Meanwhile Zerg won almost 50% of events and won the most even if you subtract Serral. "ONLY GSL COUNTS, NOTHING ELSE IS IMPORTANT!" "Okay, but you see, in those GSLs that Maru won, Terran was pretty well represen-" "YOU CHERRYPICK TOURNAMENTS!" Can you please stay in one lane or the other? Terran did well enough in most of these years, the difference in prizemoney earned isn't that tremendously big, especially if you factor in the big leads that Zerg has mostly come from winning the World Championships (which, y'know, is the most important tournament anyway). I didn't properly write it down, but by eye-test alone: Between 2018-22, the split in terms of players who played in a GSL final, the split for Protoss/Zerg/Terran is I believe 5/4/3 and the only reason Zerg isn't at 3 aswell is that one GSL Final RagnaroK/SHIN stumbled into. What realistically happened is this: Winning a Premier event in 2018-22 is "harder" compared to before, because there are much less of them and basically all of them have all the world-class-players in them. So naturally, the amount of wins split less between the few S-Class players. Has nothing to do with Terran being oh-so-weak. And it's not maru being the best and serral carrying that is pretty laughable when it's exactly opposite. So you agree that Serral is the best? I posted pictures as evidence but you have no real response to it. Shamelessly dishonest discussion. I'm trying so hard to be polite right now...but you posted two(?) screenshots of a Liquipedia-Statistic I already looked at multiple times throughout the discussion in the last few days. I even based some of my arguments on these. How am I supposed to "respond" to raw data? Sorry, but if you are too lazy to make up a real argument and articulate your train of thought, just don't participate? It's not insurmountable amount of raw data. Two screenshots that summarized the winners and runner ups of major tournaments in year 2018. The pictures speak for themselves. But since you need to be spoonfed, I'll oblige. TL(I guess?)DR: Only Maru was winning big tournaments for Terran while other races had multiple champions. When it came to runner-ups, TY and Inno come up once each while the rest of the runner-ups were all non-Terrans.
Toss had two, for their two, which is the lowest for the factions overall. Zerg had two for more wins, but the split was Serral winning all but one (for the presented list)
It’s really not a huge difference.
It’s also not all major tournaments, it’s WCS series events. So Serral picks up GSL versus the World and HSC in addition. Scarlett also appears with her IEM Pyeonchang victory
Inno did also win HSC in 2018, although it was classified as merely A tier
I mean I understand that Maru is Maru, and cherrypicking must be done. It is the way
Clearly he had a fantastic 2018, and was the best Terran. As he was basically every year subsequently until Clem went mental.
Terran was still plenty competitive outside of him, and he wasn’t the best Terran in the Most Competitive EraTM, so idk where the idea he’s this singular light carrying Terran has basis in.
5 Terrans who aren’t him have won a WC. In the post-Kespa epoch TY won 2 GSLs, Cure won one and has been a finalist besides. Cure also made the final of Gamers8 which was huge.
|
On September 20 2025 11:59 Pentarp wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2025 08:25 Balnazza wrote:On September 18 2025 06:32 Pentarp wrote:On September 18 2025 05:36 Balnazza wrote:On September 18 2025 04:40 JJH777 wrote:On September 18 2025 03:00 Balnazza wrote:On September 17 2025 23:28 Poopi wrote:On September 17 2025 18:46 Harris1st wrote:On September 17 2025 18:34 Charoisaur wrote:On September 17 2025 16:19 Harris1st wrote:
[quote]
I can agree on from 2018 onwards until the rise of Clement (somewhere in 2023 I guess), from all the Terrans, Maru had the highest chance of winning a tournament he entered.
So yes Maru can be considered the best Terran over a span of 5+ years. Did he carry? I don't think so. Most of the big titles were won by other Terrans (Oli, Clem, Inno)
Fair to say for most part even Serral didn't carry his race. He always had a peer (Rogoue, Dark, Reynor) and Serral was by far the favorite to win every tournament he entered from all races
How so? Clem and Oli didn't a big title in the time span you specified. Inno won WESG one time just as Maru. But Maru also won GSL 4x which Inno didn't do. TY won GSL twice but no other tournament. With which part do you disagree? Was he the best Terran? Probably, I'd personally say yes. Did he carry?. No, I don't think so The race was uncarryable for most of this timespan, since even Maru could not do it. He was the only hope for most of this era though. Like if Maru was eliminated from the tournament, you knew there was barely any chance a terran would win it Serral doesn't have to carry zerg because zerg was at best super OP, at worst equal to other races Ah yes, the return of the "Maru is a God and he only loses units because of balance"-argument. Even including Maru Terran only won 25% of tournaments and took only 23% of finalist slots during that era. Maru was responsible for the vast majority of wins and majority of finals spots. It's very likely that if Maru didn't exist they would have won <15% of events during that era and had <20% finalists. That's carrying.
Region locked should still be excluded because it was basically can Clem beat Serral. If so he wins, if not he doesn't. And he had Serrals number for part of that era. Sometimes he didn't even have to beat Serral to win those regionals as well. He never won or even made the finals of any major international during that timeframe. Regardless it really wouldn't even change that much because Terran did so abysmal during the 2018/2019 WCS circuits that Clems success in 21/22 is unlikely to change the percentages all that much. And yet, Terran was more than enough represented during tournaments. Tournament-wins don't say much in that regard tbh. As I said a while ago: In most of Marus GSL-wins Terran was well-represented in the Ro8. Also, and I know you have a fundamentally different view on this: Terran winning 25% of tournaments means nothing. Even when the game is perfectly balanced there should not be a 33% split between the races, because that would effectively mean that personal skill does not matter at all, while the opposite should be true. If the game is perfectly balanced and Maru is the almighty-god-of-perfect-play he should win all tournaments. Weirdly, that is kind of what one other dude did, casually almost doubling the amount of Premier-wins compared to the 2nd guy... You just cherry picked a few ro8s and are using that to say they had good representation. Whether you use ro8 or finals Terran did shitty in that 5 year stretch when looking at all premiers and Maru made up a substantial portion of their representation. If you subtract Marus results from that era T basically becomes extinct for that 5 year period. Meanwhile Zerg won almost 50% of events and won the most even if you subtract Serral. "ONLY GSL COUNTS, NOTHING ELSE IS IMPORTANT!" "Okay, but you see, in those GSLs that Maru won, Terran was pretty well represen-" "YOU CHERRYPICK TOURNAMENTS!" Can you please stay in one lane or the other? Terran did well enough in most of these years, the difference in prizemoney earned isn't that tremendously big, especially if you factor in the big leads that Zerg has mostly come from winning the World Championships (which, y'know, is the most important tournament anyway). I didn't properly write it down, but by eye-test alone: Between 2018-22, the split in terms of players who played in a GSL final, the split for Protoss/Zerg/Terran is I believe 5/4/3 and the only reason Zerg isn't at 3 aswell is that one GSL Final RagnaroK/SHIN stumbled into. What realistically happened is this: Winning a Premier event in 2018-22 is "harder" compared to before, because there are much less of them and basically all of them have all the world-class-players in them. So naturally, the amount of wins split less between the few S-Class players. Has nothing to do with Terran being oh-so-weak. And it's not maru being the best and serral carrying that is pretty laughable when it's exactly opposite. So you agree that Serral is the best? I posted pictures as evidence but you have no real response to it. Shamelessly dishonest discussion. I'm trying so hard to be polite right now...but you posted two(?) screenshots of a Liquipedia-Statistic I already looked at multiple times throughout the discussion in the last few days. I even based some of my arguments on these. How am I supposed to "respond" to raw data? Sorry, but if you are too lazy to make up a real argument and articulate your train of thought, just don't participate? It's not insurmountable amount of raw data. Two screenshots that summarized the winners and runner ups of major tournaments in year 2018. The pictures speak for themselves. But since you need to be spoonfed, I'll oblige. TL(I guess?)DR: Only Maru was winning big tournaments for Terran while other races had multiple champions. When it came to runner-ups, TY and Inno come up once each while the rest of the runner-ups were all non-Terrans.
Serral and Maru had a stellar 2018, literally splitting 99% of big tournaments between them. In GSL, as listed by me, Terran did well if you expand the scope beyond the very arbitrary Top 2.
As for the outlier tournaments:
IEM PyeongChang was won by a Zerg but had no korean Terrans present.
WESG was won by Maru, the next best Terran in the tournament was...either SpeCial or Kelazhur, but again, no korean Terran.
Except for GSL S1, Terran throughout the year did good enough getting into the crunchtime. From there bracket-luck and skill take over and as mentioned, it is hard winning something when you split the entire year between just two players.
The raw data wasn't "insurmountable"...it was literally barely nothing to work with or already countered...
|
On September 20 2025 12:31 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2025 11:59 Pentarp wrote:On September 18 2025 08:25 Balnazza wrote:On September 18 2025 06:32 Pentarp wrote:On September 18 2025 05:36 Balnazza wrote:On September 18 2025 04:40 JJH777 wrote:On September 18 2025 03:00 Balnazza wrote:On September 17 2025 23:28 Poopi wrote:On September 17 2025 18:46 Harris1st wrote:On September 17 2025 18:34 Charoisaur wrote:
[quote]
How so? Clem and Oli didn't a big title in the time span you specified. Inno won WESG one time just as Maru. But Maru also won GSL 4x which Inno didn't do. TY won GSL twice but no other tournament.
With which part do you disagree? Was he the best Terran? Probably, I'd personally say yes. Did he carry?. No, I don't think so The race was uncarryable for most of this timespan, since even Maru could not do it. He was the only hope for most of this era though. Like if Maru was eliminated from the tournament, you knew there was barely any chance a terran would win it Serral doesn't have to carry zerg because zerg was at best super OP, at worst equal to other races Ah yes, the return of the "Maru is a God and he only loses units because of balance"-argument. Even including Maru Terran only won 25% of tournaments and took only 23% of finalist slots during that era. Maru was responsible for the vast majority of wins and majority of finals spots. It's very likely that if Maru didn't exist they would have won <15% of events during that era and had <20% finalists. That's carrying.
Region locked should still be excluded because it was basically can Clem beat Serral. If so he wins, if not he doesn't. And he had Serrals number for part of that era. Sometimes he didn't even have to beat Serral to win those regionals as well. He never won or even made the finals of any major international during that timeframe. Regardless it really wouldn't even change that much because Terran did so abysmal during the 2018/2019 WCS circuits that Clems success in 21/22 is unlikely to change the percentages all that much. And yet, Terran was more than enough represented during tournaments. Tournament-wins don't say much in that regard tbh. As I said a while ago: In most of Marus GSL-wins Terran was well-represented in the Ro8. Also, and I know you have a fundamentally different view on this: Terran winning 25% of tournaments means nothing. Even when the game is perfectly balanced there should not be a 33% split between the races, because that would effectively mean that personal skill does not matter at all, while the opposite should be true. If the game is perfectly balanced and Maru is the almighty-god-of-perfect-play he should win all tournaments. Weirdly, that is kind of what one other dude did, casually almost doubling the amount of Premier-wins compared to the 2nd guy... You just cherry picked a few ro8s and are using that to say they had good representation. Whether you use ro8 or finals Terran did shitty in that 5 year stretch when looking at all premiers and Maru made up a substantial portion of their representation. If you subtract Marus results from that era T basically becomes extinct for that 5 year period. Meanwhile Zerg won almost 50% of events and won the most even if you subtract Serral. "ONLY GSL COUNTS, NOTHING ELSE IS IMPORTANT!" "Okay, but you see, in those GSLs that Maru won, Terran was pretty well represen-" "YOU CHERRYPICK TOURNAMENTS!" Can you please stay in one lane or the other? Terran did well enough in most of these years, the difference in prizemoney earned isn't that tremendously big, especially if you factor in the big leads that Zerg has mostly come from winning the World Championships (which, y'know, is the most important tournament anyway). I didn't properly write it down, but by eye-test alone: Between 2018-22, the split in terms of players who played in a GSL final, the split for Protoss/Zerg/Terran is I believe 5/4/3 and the only reason Zerg isn't at 3 aswell is that one GSL Final RagnaroK/SHIN stumbled into. What realistically happened is this: Winning a Premier event in 2018-22 is "harder" compared to before, because there are much less of them and basically all of them have all the world-class-players in them. So naturally, the amount of wins split less between the few S-Class players. Has nothing to do with Terran being oh-so-weak. And it's not maru being the best and serral carrying that is pretty laughable when it's exactly opposite. So you agree that Serral is the best? I posted pictures as evidence but you have no real response to it. Shamelessly dishonest discussion. I'm trying so hard to be polite right now...but you posted two(?) screenshots of a Liquipedia-Statistic I already looked at multiple times throughout the discussion in the last few days. I even based some of my arguments on these. How am I supposed to "respond" to raw data? Sorry, but if you are too lazy to make up a real argument and articulate your train of thought, just don't participate? It's not insurmountable amount of raw data. Two screenshots that summarized the winners and runner ups of major tournaments in year 2018. The pictures speak for themselves. But since you need to be spoonfed, I'll oblige. TL(I guess?)DR: Only Maru was winning big tournaments for Terran while other races had multiple champions. When it came to runner-ups, TY and Inno come up once each while the rest of the runner-ups were all non-Terrans. Toss had two, for their two, which is the lowest for the factions overall. Zerg had two for more wins, but the split was Serral winning all but one (for the presented list) It’s really not a huge difference. It’s also not all major tournaments, it’s WCS series events. So Serral picks up GSL versus the World and HSC in addition. Scarlett also appears with her IEM Pyeonchang victory Inno did also win HSC in 2018, although it was classified as merely A tier I mean I understand that Maru is Maru, and cherrypicking must be done. It is the way Clearly he had a fantastic 2018, and was the best Terran. As he was basically every year subsequently until Clem went mental. Terran was still plenty competitive outside of him, and he wasn’t the best Terran in the Most Competitive EraTM, so idk where the idea he’s this singular light carrying Terran has basis in. 5 Terrans who aren’t him have won a WC. In the post-Kespa epoch TY won 2 GSLs, Cure won one and has been a finalist besides. Cure also made the final of Gamers8 which was huge.
You forgot innovations who won that big tournament against Serral in the finals (forgot the tournament name)
Also Oliveria winning a world championship.
I know Maru fansboys wants to boost Maru up , but outside of 2018 pre or post he isn’t really anything special. Even his SSL OSL isn’t that impressive if you actually took a look at his path to victory. He was lucky to avoid most of the heavy hitters
|
Northern Ireland26505 Posts
On September 21 2025 10:53 TeamMamba wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2025 12:31 WombaT wrote:On September 20 2025 11:59 Pentarp wrote:On September 18 2025 08:25 Balnazza wrote:On September 18 2025 06:32 Pentarp wrote:On September 18 2025 05:36 Balnazza wrote:On September 18 2025 04:40 JJH777 wrote:On September 18 2025 03:00 Balnazza wrote:On September 17 2025 23:28 Poopi wrote:On September 17 2025 18:46 Harris1st wrote:
[quote]
With which part do you disagree?
Was he the best Terran? Probably, I'd personally say yes.
Did he carry?. No, I don't think so
The race was uncarryable for most of this timespan, since even Maru could not do it. He was the only hope for most of this era though. Like if Maru was eliminated from the tournament, you knew there was barely any chance a terran would win it Serral doesn't have to carry zerg because zerg was at best super OP, at worst equal to other races Ah yes, the return of the "Maru is a God and he only loses units because of balance"-argument. Even including Maru Terran only won 25% of tournaments and took only 23% of finalist slots during that era. Maru was responsible for the vast majority of wins and majority of finals spots. It's very likely that if Maru didn't exist they would have won <15% of events during that era and had <20% finalists. That's carrying.
Region locked should still be excluded because it was basically can Clem beat Serral. If so he wins, if not he doesn't. And he had Serrals number for part of that era. Sometimes he didn't even have to beat Serral to win those regionals as well. He never won or even made the finals of any major international during that timeframe. Regardless it really wouldn't even change that much because Terran did so abysmal during the 2018/2019 WCS circuits that Clems success in 21/22 is unlikely to change the percentages all that much. And yet, Terran was more than enough represented during tournaments. Tournament-wins don't say much in that regard tbh. As I said a while ago: In most of Marus GSL-wins Terran was well-represented in the Ro8. Also, and I know you have a fundamentally different view on this: Terran winning 25% of tournaments means nothing. Even when the game is perfectly balanced there should not be a 33% split between the races, because that would effectively mean that personal skill does not matter at all, while the opposite should be true. If the game is perfectly balanced and Maru is the almighty-god-of-perfect-play he should win all tournaments. Weirdly, that is kind of what one other dude did, casually almost doubling the amount of Premier-wins compared to the 2nd guy... You just cherry picked a few ro8s and are using that to say they had good representation. Whether you use ro8 or finals Terran did shitty in that 5 year stretch when looking at all premiers and Maru made up a substantial portion of their representation. If you subtract Marus results from that era T basically becomes extinct for that 5 year period. Meanwhile Zerg won almost 50% of events and won the most even if you subtract Serral. "ONLY GSL COUNTS, NOTHING ELSE IS IMPORTANT!" "Okay, but you see, in those GSLs that Maru won, Terran was pretty well represen-" "YOU CHERRYPICK TOURNAMENTS!" Can you please stay in one lane or the other? Terran did well enough in most of these years, the difference in prizemoney earned isn't that tremendously big, especially if you factor in the big leads that Zerg has mostly come from winning the World Championships (which, y'know, is the most important tournament anyway). I didn't properly write it down, but by eye-test alone: Between 2018-22, the split in terms of players who played in a GSL final, the split for Protoss/Zerg/Terran is I believe 5/4/3 and the only reason Zerg isn't at 3 aswell is that one GSL Final RagnaroK/SHIN stumbled into. What realistically happened is this: Winning a Premier event in 2018-22 is "harder" compared to before, because there are much less of them and basically all of them have all the world-class-players in them. So naturally, the amount of wins split less between the few S-Class players. Has nothing to do with Terran being oh-so-weak. And it's not maru being the best and serral carrying that is pretty laughable when it's exactly opposite. So you agree that Serral is the best? I posted pictures as evidence but you have no real response to it. Shamelessly dishonest discussion. I'm trying so hard to be polite right now...but you posted two(?) screenshots of a Liquipedia-Statistic I already looked at multiple times throughout the discussion in the last few days. I even based some of my arguments on these. How am I supposed to "respond" to raw data? Sorry, but if you are too lazy to make up a real argument and articulate your train of thought, just don't participate? It's not insurmountable amount of raw data. Two screenshots that summarized the winners and runner ups of major tournaments in year 2018. The pictures speak for themselves. But since you need to be spoonfed, I'll oblige. TL(I guess?)DR: Only Maru was winning big tournaments for Terran while other races had multiple champions. When it came to runner-ups, TY and Inno come up once each while the rest of the runner-ups were all non-Terrans. Toss had two, for their two, which is the lowest for the factions overall. Zerg had two for more wins, but the split was Serral winning all but one (for the presented list) It’s really not a huge difference. It’s also not all major tournaments, it’s WCS series events. So Serral picks up GSL versus the World and HSC in addition. Scarlett also appears with her IEM Pyeonchang victory Inno did also win HSC in 2018, although it was classified as merely A tier I mean I understand that Maru is Maru, and cherrypicking must be done. It is the way Clearly he had a fantastic 2018, and was the best Terran. As he was basically every year subsequently until Clem went mental. Terran was still plenty competitive outside of him, and he wasn’t the best Terran in the Most Competitive EraTM, so idk where the idea he’s this singular light carrying Terran has basis in. 5 Terrans who aren’t him have won a WC. In the post-Kespa epoch TY won 2 GSLs, Cure won one and has been a finalist besides. Cure also made the final of Gamers8 which was huge. You forgot innovations who won that big tournament against Serral in the finals (forgot the tournament name) Also Oliveria winning a world championship. I know Maru fansboys wants to boost Maru up , but outside of 2018 pre or post he isn’t really anything special. Even his SSL OSL isn’t that impressive if you actually took a look at his path to victory. He was lucky to avoid most of the heavy hitters
He’s incredibly special, he’s one of the most talented players to ever log in to BattleNet. He’s done a thousand things that people genuinely didn’t think was possible, things nobody else could do. Who needs Vikings against Colossus? He’s mastered basically every way of playing Terran, from his earlier hyper-aggressive days to being the best defensive player of his faction.
I have an issue with bullshit cherrypicked arguments in his favour, and always have, and frequently complain about it, but he’s an unbelievable player who’s given innumerable amazing moments
‘Nothing special’ no, that’s fucking silly.
At this stage I find it hard to give credence to anyone other than Serral for #1, but equally, difficult to give the #2 to anyone but Maru
|
On September 20 2025 12:31 WombaT wrote:
Clearly he had a fantastic 2018, and was the best Terran. As he was basically every year subsequently until Clem went mental.
Even 2020? TY won 2 GSLs, Maru none... When the pro-Marus argue against Serral, they usually highlight his GSL-wins. So according to that metric, Maru shouldn't be the best Terran in 2020 from their POV, no?
Further, Maru didn't win a GSL from 2019 Season 1 till 2022 Season 3, while Cure and TY were able to do it. INno, Dream, Cure, Bunny, GuMiho, Fantasy, Special, TY and ByuN all were able to place higher than Maru in that time frame too and we have 3 Terran World Champions since Maru won his first big tournament. I have a hard time understanding the relevance of this race-based view anyhow, but looking at the whole picture how other Terrans achieved things Maru did not in either the KeSPA era or after and not cherry-picking certain times/achievements, makes it even tougher to find relevance for this talking point.
I 100% agree with your last answer. Maru is an incredible player and has done many things people thought to be impossible. To diminish him and his achievements is utterly ridiculous and this whole discussion does him no justice. At the same time, the inconsistent/illogical cherry-picking that is done seems to grow more and more absurd.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
