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Northern Ireland26261 Posts
On September 12 2025 22:04 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2025 21:20 PremoBeats wrote:On September 12 2025 20:13 ejozl wrote:On September 12 2025 15:28 PremoBeats wrote:On September 11 2025 21:53 ejozl wrote:On September 10 2025 17:42 PremoBeats wrote:On September 10 2025 08:01 WombaT wrote:On September 10 2025 02:36 Pentarp wrote:
Maru was the Terran Hope and the Fourth Race.
Some of you are clueless as hell. Was he The Machine though? I mean Inno did win the TL user-voted GOAT tournament way back when, it’s not outrageous to claim he shaded it in the Kespa era. Some considered Mvp the greater at that time too, although he didn’t progress as far in the bracket, given his World Champs and overseas international wins at the time. Maru’s claim becomes awkward because it relies a lot on his longevity, but a longevity that overlaps with Serral, who outdid him in that particular span. One doesn’t have to lack knowledge, or not consider Maru an incredible talent to notice some of the fudging people do to make his case. That's exactly the point... Maru was never the best of any era. He was always surpassed by others. It needs to be highlighted that he is the statistically 2nd best player of all time, but until 2018 many players are above his claim and post-2018 Serral rose and took over. And I hate to point this out over and over as it doesn't do Maru's achievements justice, but being the 7th or 8th up until the 2nd best doesn't make you the Greatest in my opinion. On September 10 2025 16:49 ejozl wrote:On September 10 2025 06:52 PremoBeats wrote:On September 09 2025 16:54 Hider wrote:My opinion about the military differs quite a bit. If the scene was so much weaker, why don't we have young players like the 17/18-year-olds from WoL/HotS grabbing world cups and GSLs? It would be easy money, no?
My take is, that the needed qualities - especially entrance hurdles - changed over the course of the game (alongside financing and establishment of players, lesser patches, less impactful changes, fewer players, the emergence of one insanely good beast, etc.). SC2 became more stable and back in 2016 when the game was only 6 years old, players simply weren't old enough to go to military and return. And some didn't have it in them, to grind their way back, while others did.
It's actually the other way around. The fact we don't get newcomers winning indicates stagnation/lower level of competitiveness. In all sports/esports we see this pattern. When we don't see it it's a sign not enough new players play it. This means the old guard continues to be the best. If Sc2 was still as popular as it was in the earlier days, majority of the current old top 30 players would have been replaced by now. I think Balnazza summed it up quite well. On September 09 2025 23:50 ejozl wrote:On September 09 2025 16:03 PremoBeats wrote:
[quote]
All good... everyone is entitled to their opinion of the game. It simply looked weird to me... but perhaps I only saw a couple of negative posts in a row and misjudged.
My opinion about the military differs quite a bit. If the scene was so much weaker, why don't we have young players like the 17/18-year-olds from WoL/HotS grabbing world cups and GSLs? It would be easy money, no?
My take is, that the needed qualities - especially entrance hurdles - changed over the course of the game (alongside financing and establishment of players, lesser patches, less impactful changes, fewer players, the emergence of one insanely good beast, etc.). SC2 became more stable and back in 2016 when the game was only 6 years old, players simply weren't old enough to go to military and return. And some didn't have it in them, to grind their way back, while others did.
2025 most definitely marked another cut with yet another change to GSL, only 4 high stakes tournaments and the late announcement of SC2's participation at EWC and I'd agree that the future doesn't look too bright. But hey, we fancy a 15-year-old game, which simply isn't made for the short attention spanned modern audience... gotta keep our heads high.
[quote]
Maru won an OSL and SSL and was an insanely good Proleague player.
But yeah... agree on Serral being much better in every metric.
[quote]
Maru was "only" the 2nd best Terran in 2015, not the entirety of prime SC2 as a congregate.
And on top only Terran, not overall. By the end of 2017, Mvp and INno - possibly other Terrans as well - were still ahead of Maru (I said several times that imo Maru overtook INno only in 2022, by which time Serral bypassed Maru).
I also don't understand why one would look at this through a race-perspective if not only to benefit Maru's claim, as Serral was clearly not only the best Zerg but clearly the best player overall. He literally is/was the king of all races (if one wants to implement these kinds of words), not only one, in all relevant metrics from 2018-2022, or 2018 until now.
And perhaps that's just me, but reigning to me is different from being the 2nd best player in one year of one race (in regards to Drahkn's post).
Maru was only top 2, yet that far greater than what serral achieved in this time, all I remember from him was playing 1 single impressive bo3 vs. jaedong. I talked about race in this post because you said he wasn't even the clear number 1 terran in a period of top competition, yet serral has not been the top zerg for many of his years and there are 3 of the damn buggers in top 4 in terms of achievements counting this same time, meanwhile I don't even know who the next terran would be after maru. Maru = king of terran, serral = one other zerg in the great succession of zergs. I never said that Serral was any good in that era. Another user claimed that Maru reigned in it when he was the 2nd best Terran and top 7th-10th overall at best, thus the notion is nonsense. So I don't get your point. And what does it even matter that Serral only exploded after finishing school and turning full time pro, when he surpassed everyone - including Maru - after he did so? Or why does it matter that some Zerg players could keep up with Serral some years? Some Terrans predated Maru. INno's 2019 also was arguably better than Maru's... TY won 2 GSLs in 2020. Cure won a GSL in 2021, Maru none. And while Terrans like Oli and Clem won the World Championship, Maru did not. I am not really sure what these fragmented views should prove to be honest, as overall Serral is by far the best statistical player from 2018 onwards, meaning for half the game's existence. No other player that played alongside him, after he turned his full attention towards the game is in any way, shape or form comparable and he is way ahead in any relevant metric to measure greatness. No idea how you are able to ignore Mvp and INno in a "great succession of Terrans" or what these obscure lines of argumentation should prove. Maru has an insanely good resume but Serral's is simply better. No shame in that. These recent discussions do both of them absolutely no justice. On September 10 2025 03:05 Mizenhauer wrote:
Welcome to Brood War!
lol My point is that maru even from 2018 and forward is the bigger outlier, and this was AFTER he was named the 4th race in hots. Back then domination in the same way wasn't possible, even mvp who was crowned by many the goat wasn't the favourite for most of his tournament wins, so implying it isn't impressive to be top 2 terran in 2015 is dumb. Statistics might be impressive, but I guess the last ever samurai probably also had a pretty good record in terms of dueling.. But he wasn't. Serral clearly is the bigger outlier statistically against every other player. I don't see anyone coming close to him in average place, tournament participation win ratios, tournament wins, match win rates or Aligulac rating. Where do you think Maru is better than Serral? I never said that it wasn't impressive being the 2nd best Terran. I simply corrected someone who said that Maru reigned in the most competitive era, when he was at best in the top7/8. Reigning means being the best or most important in a particular situation, which Maru was not back then. Okay, so serral is the bigger outlier in terms of win rate, and maru is the bigger outlier in terms of carrying its race burden. I think he's got a case for achievements which is the only thing that matters in the debate for me, and when you count in era it becomes strong as hell, and when you count in race it becomes overwhelming. I think the reigned word was probably just a bad wod choice, but all these words get synonymous in e-sport, he reigned, he terrorized, he dominated and etc. I would say a player like MC reigned, even though he might not've been the statistical best, in the way that he dominated the show and flew everywhere all the time. As for the 2nd best that's a dumb argument, you would all agree maru > dear, even though you would say maru wasn't the best at a time, when dear was for a very brief moment. Serral's and Maru's achievements only become comparable if you entirely disregard his region-locks. To make Maru be better than Serral with an era-justification, you'd have to pump up era as a metric so much that other players who won a lot more in the prime-era will overtake Maru, as most of his accomplishments are outside of the prime-era. That is shown when constant, non-changeable multipliers are tied to the results of these players. And this "carrying-one's-race-burden" thing... How would you even measure it? How do you incorporate the fact that there were 3 Terran world champions since Maru won his first big tournament, while he was never able to do it? Or how TY won 2 GSLs in 2020 and Maru none? Or how would you control for your race simply having one or two more good players, instead of race itself being an issue? Would you analyze this whole-career-wise or on a yearly basis? Against single players who played in the same race? I have a hunch that herO would overtake Maru in a setup you described, as he had much more wins in the prime-era and carried his race when no one really else held the candle. But placing so many arbitrary restrictions on the discussion sounds more like a GOAT-order from wish imo. PS: And funny, I imagined your GOAT-metric-to-go would be prize money  On September 11 2025 23:48 EEk1TwEEk wrote:On March 16 2024 08:18 Antithesis wrote:
Serral is the #1 Greatest of all Time.
Maru is doubtlessly the #2 behind him, though. U nuts? Serral never played gsl I think you just solved SC2! Why did no one else ever think of that? I have measured it hence why I know maru comes on top. I disregard region locks, his gsl vs. world and homestory cups by 3/4's because region lock doesn't feature koreans, and hsc (the ones he won) and gsl vs. the world are invitationals. Other players who have won during the prime years don't have 4 gsls or anything comparable, and terran was objectively weakest during this time. TY was a power house, but clearly not no/ 1, when maru is winning 4 gsls in a row. Serral not performing during the prime years, that zerg might've been OP, and serral not winning gsl - are all comparable to maru not being able to win a world championship. Oh.. but then.. he did. + Show Spoiler +
But forget it Jake, it's china town.
There's a lot to unpack. 1a. Would you upload the screenshots or send me the excel of the calculation? 1b. How exactly did you factor in era and the race-burden-thing? 2. What do you mean by "Terran was objectively weakest"? According to which metric/s? 3. Maru winning 4 GSLs was 2018 till early 2019. TY's wins were 2020. I am not making the argument that TY was the number 1 Terran... I simply wanted to know how exactly your race-burden-thing works. 4. The things you mentioned in your last sentence are all pretty heavily context-dependent and aren't really comparable like that in a one-liner. 5. Did you disregard/discount any other tournaments? You can see his absolute shit-show of a ranking hereThe main metric for this ranking is basically "everything that isn't GSL doesn't count, but also everything not won by Maru doesn't count because he wouldn't have enough points otherwise. Also Terran was the weakest race ever for some reason, even though during most of his GSL-wins Terran was overrepresented in GSL playoffs and multiple Terrans have won World Championships, except the 'Terran Hope', but that is because World Championships also only give out 1/60000 of points because they are not GSL during the prime-years between tuesday and thursday."
Pretty much. I’m fine with going off vibes, but one has to commit to it.
I mean Maru’s got some of the most raw skill we’ve seen, great longevity and plenty of wins.
By all means make that claim. Instead of just massive fudges, where he gets points for carrying Terran in a short window, got (relatively narrowly) edged by Innovation in the Kespa era, and Serral subsequently, but his 2018 results all count full, and thereafter it’s a weak era, but also not winning a World Champ even in a weak era isn’t a sufficient minus point for Maru’s claim.
It ends up being an unholy fucking mess.
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On September 12 2025 22:04 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2025 21:20 PremoBeats wrote:On September 12 2025 20:13 ejozl wrote:On September 12 2025 15:28 PremoBeats wrote:On September 11 2025 21:53 ejozl wrote:On September 10 2025 17:42 PremoBeats wrote:On September 10 2025 08:01 WombaT wrote:On September 10 2025 02:36 Pentarp wrote:
Maru was the Terran Hope and the Fourth Race.
Some of you are clueless as hell. Was he The Machine though? I mean Inno did win the TL user-voted GOAT tournament way back when, it’s not outrageous to claim he shaded it in the Kespa era. Some considered Mvp the greater at that time too, although he didn’t progress as far in the bracket, given his World Champs and overseas international wins at the time. Maru’s claim becomes awkward because it relies a lot on his longevity, but a longevity that overlaps with Serral, who outdid him in that particular span. One doesn’t have to lack knowledge, or not consider Maru an incredible talent to notice some of the fudging people do to make his case. That's exactly the point... Maru was never the best of any era. He was always surpassed by others. It needs to be highlighted that he is the statistically 2nd best player of all time, but until 2018 many players are above his claim and post-2018 Serral rose and took over. And I hate to point this out over and over as it doesn't do Maru's achievements justice, but being the 7th or 8th up until the 2nd best doesn't make you the Greatest in my opinion. On September 10 2025 16:49 ejozl wrote:On September 10 2025 06:52 PremoBeats wrote:On September 09 2025 16:54 Hider wrote:My opinion about the military differs quite a bit. If the scene was so much weaker, why don't we have young players like the 17/18-year-olds from WoL/HotS grabbing world cups and GSLs? It would be easy money, no?
My take is, that the needed qualities - especially entrance hurdles - changed over the course of the game (alongside financing and establishment of players, lesser patches, less impactful changes, fewer players, the emergence of one insanely good beast, etc.). SC2 became more stable and back in 2016 when the game was only 6 years old, players simply weren't old enough to go to military and return. And some didn't have it in them, to grind their way back, while others did.
It's actually the other way around. The fact we don't get newcomers winning indicates stagnation/lower level of competitiveness. In all sports/esports we see this pattern. When we don't see it it's a sign not enough new players play it. This means the old guard continues to be the best. If Sc2 was still as popular as it was in the earlier days, majority of the current old top 30 players would have been replaced by now. I think Balnazza summed it up quite well. On September 09 2025 23:50 ejozl wrote:On September 09 2025 16:03 PremoBeats wrote:
[quote]
All good... everyone is entitled to their opinion of the game. It simply looked weird to me... but perhaps I only saw a couple of negative posts in a row and misjudged.
My opinion about the military differs quite a bit. If the scene was so much weaker, why don't we have young players like the 17/18-year-olds from WoL/HotS grabbing world cups and GSLs? It would be easy money, no?
My take is, that the needed qualities - especially entrance hurdles - changed over the course of the game (alongside financing and establishment of players, lesser patches, less impactful changes, fewer players, the emergence of one insanely good beast, etc.). SC2 became more stable and back in 2016 when the game was only 6 years old, players simply weren't old enough to go to military and return. And some didn't have it in them, to grind their way back, while others did.
2025 most definitely marked another cut with yet another change to GSL, only 4 high stakes tournaments and the late announcement of SC2's participation at EWC and I'd agree that the future doesn't look too bright. But hey, we fancy a 15-year-old game, which simply isn't made for the short attention spanned modern audience... gotta keep our heads high.
[quote]
Maru won an OSL and SSL and was an insanely good Proleague player.
But yeah... agree on Serral being much better in every metric.
[quote]
Maru was "only" the 2nd best Terran in 2015, not the entirety of prime SC2 as a congregate.
And on top only Terran, not overall. By the end of 2017, Mvp and INno - possibly other Terrans as well - were still ahead of Maru (I said several times that imo Maru overtook INno only in 2022, by which time Serral bypassed Maru).
I also don't understand why one would look at this through a race-perspective if not only to benefit Maru's claim, as Serral was clearly not only the best Zerg but clearly the best player overall. He literally is/was the king of all races (if one wants to implement these kinds of words), not only one, in all relevant metrics from 2018-2022, or 2018 until now.
And perhaps that's just me, but reigning to me is different from being the 2nd best player in one year of one race (in regards to Drahkn's post).
Maru was only top 2, yet that far greater than what serral achieved in this time, all I remember from him was playing 1 single impressive bo3 vs. jaedong. I talked about race in this post because you said he wasn't even the clear number 1 terran in a period of top competition, yet serral has not been the top zerg for many of his years and there are 3 of the damn buggers in top 4 in terms of achievements counting this same time, meanwhile I don't even know who the next terran would be after maru. Maru = king of terran, serral = one other zerg in the great succession of zergs. I never said that Serral was any good in that era. Another user claimed that Maru reigned in it when he was the 2nd best Terran and top 7th-10th overall at best, thus the notion is nonsense. So I don't get your point. And what does it even matter that Serral only exploded after finishing school and turning full time pro, when he surpassed everyone - including Maru - after he did so? Or why does it matter that some Zerg players could keep up with Serral some years? Some Terrans predated Maru. INno's 2019 also was arguably better than Maru's... TY won 2 GSLs in 2020. Cure won a GSL in 2021, Maru none. And while Terrans like Oli and Clem won the World Championship, Maru did not. I am not really sure what these fragmented views should prove to be honest, as overall Serral is by far the best statistical player from 2018 onwards, meaning for half the game's existence. No other player that played alongside him, after he turned his full attention towards the game is in any way, shape or form comparable and he is way ahead in any relevant metric to measure greatness. No idea how you are able to ignore Mvp and INno in a "great succession of Terrans" or what these obscure lines of argumentation should prove. Maru has an insanely good resume but Serral's is simply better. No shame in that. These recent discussions do both of them absolutely no justice. On September 10 2025 03:05 Mizenhauer wrote:
Welcome to Brood War!
lol My point is that maru even from 2018 and forward is the bigger outlier, and this was AFTER he was named the 4th race in hots. Back then domination in the same way wasn't possible, even mvp who was crowned by many the goat wasn't the favourite for most of his tournament wins, so implying it isn't impressive to be top 2 terran in 2015 is dumb. Statistics might be impressive, but I guess the last ever samurai probably also had a pretty good record in terms of dueling.. But he wasn't. Serral clearly is the bigger outlier statistically against every other player. I don't see anyone coming close to him in average place, tournament participation win ratios, tournament wins, match win rates or Aligulac rating. Where do you think Maru is better than Serral? I never said that it wasn't impressive being the 2nd best Terran. I simply corrected someone who said that Maru reigned in the most competitive era, when he was at best in the top7/8. Reigning means being the best or most important in a particular situation, which Maru was not back then. Okay, so serral is the bigger outlier in terms of win rate, and maru is the bigger outlier in terms of carrying its race burden. I think he's got a case for achievements which is the only thing that matters in the debate for me, and when you count in era it becomes strong as hell, and when you count in race it becomes overwhelming. I think the reigned word was probably just a bad wod choice, but all these words get synonymous in e-sport, he reigned, he terrorized, he dominated and etc. I would say a player like MC reigned, even though he might not've been the statistical best, in the way that he dominated the show and flew everywhere all the time. As for the 2nd best that's a dumb argument, you would all agree maru > dear, even though you would say maru wasn't the best at a time, when dear was for a very brief moment. Serral's and Maru's achievements only become comparable if you entirely disregard his region-locks. To make Maru be better than Serral with an era-justification, you'd have to pump up era as a metric so much that other players who won a lot more in the prime-era will overtake Maru, as most of his accomplishments are outside of the prime-era. That is shown when constant, non-changeable multipliers are tied to the results of these players. And this "carrying-one's-race-burden" thing... How would you even measure it? How do you incorporate the fact that there were 3 Terran world champions since Maru won his first big tournament, while he was never able to do it? Or how TY won 2 GSLs in 2020 and Maru none? Or how would you control for your race simply having one or two more good players, instead of race itself being an issue? Would you analyze this whole-career-wise or on a yearly basis? Against single players who played in the same race? I have a hunch that herO would overtake Maru in a setup you described, as he had much more wins in the prime-era and carried his race when no one really else held the candle. But placing so many arbitrary restrictions on the discussion sounds more like a GOAT-order from wish imo. PS: And funny, I imagined your GOAT-metric-to-go would be prize money On September 11 2025 23:48 EEk1TwEEk wrote:On March 16 2024 08:18 Antithesis wrote:
Serral is the #1 Greatest of all Time.
Maru is doubtlessly the #2 behind him, though. U nuts? Serral never played gsl I think you just solved SC2! Why did no one else ever think of that? I have measured it hence why I know maru comes on top. I disregard region locks, his gsl vs. world and homestory cups by 3/4's because region lock doesn't feature koreans, and hsc (the ones he won) and gsl vs. the world are invitationals. Other players who have won during the prime years don't have 4 gsls or anything comparable, and terran was objectively weakest during this time. TY was a power house, but clearly not no/ 1, when maru is winning 4 gsls in a row. Serral not performing during the prime years, that zerg might've been OP, and serral not winning gsl - are all comparable to maru not being able to win a world championship. Oh.. but then.. he did. + Show Spoiler +
But forget it Jake, it's china town.
There's a lot to unpack. 1a. Would you upload the screenshots or send me the excel of the calculation? 1b. How exactly did you factor in era and the race-burden-thing? 2. What do you mean by "Terran was objectively weakest"? According to which metric/s? 3. Maru winning 4 GSLs was 2018 till early 2019. TY's wins were 2020. I am not making the argument that TY was the number 1 Terran... I simply wanted to know how exactly your race-burden-thing works. 4. The things you mentioned in your last sentence are all pretty heavily context-dependent and aren't really comparable like that in a one-liner. 5. Did you disregard/discount any other tournaments? You can see his absolute shit-show of a ranking hereThe main metric for this ranking is basically "everything that isn't GSL doesn't count, but also everything not won by Maru doesn't count because he wouldn't have enough points otherwise. Also Terran was the weakest race ever for some reason, even though during most of his GSL-wins Terran was overrepresented in GSL playoffs and multiple Terrans have won World Championships, except the 'Terran Hope', but that is because World Championships also only give out 1/60000 of points because they are not GSL during the prime-years between tuesday and thursday."
Nah, can't be the same. He is talking about 3/4 deductions, which are never mentioned in the prize money mess. Some other things also don't align with the explanations in the other thread.
@WombaT: Yeah.. consistency in application would for once be a really nice principle in these GOAT discussions.
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United States1913 Posts
On September 13 2025 01:54 PremoBeats wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2025 22:04 Balnazza wrote:On September 12 2025 21:20 PremoBeats wrote:On September 12 2025 20:13 ejozl wrote:On September 12 2025 15:28 PremoBeats wrote:On September 11 2025 21:53 ejozl wrote:On September 10 2025 17:42 PremoBeats wrote:On September 10 2025 08:01 WombaT wrote:On September 10 2025 02:36 Pentarp wrote:
Maru was the Terran Hope and the Fourth Race.
Some of you are clueless as hell. Was he The Machine though? I mean Inno did win the TL user-voted GOAT tournament way back when, it’s not outrageous to claim he shaded it in the Kespa era. Some considered Mvp the greater at that time too, although he didn’t progress as far in the bracket, given his World Champs and overseas international wins at the time. Maru’s claim becomes awkward because it relies a lot on his longevity, but a longevity that overlaps with Serral, who outdid him in that particular span. One doesn’t have to lack knowledge, or not consider Maru an incredible talent to notice some of the fudging people do to make his case. That's exactly the point... Maru was never the best of any era. He was always surpassed by others. It needs to be highlighted that he is the statistically 2nd best player of all time, but until 2018 many players are above his claim and post-2018 Serral rose and took over. And I hate to point this out over and over as it doesn't do Maru's achievements justice, but being the 7th or 8th up until the 2nd best doesn't make you the Greatest in my opinion. On September 10 2025 16:49 ejozl wrote:On September 10 2025 06:52 PremoBeats wrote:On September 09 2025 16:54 Hider wrote:
[quote]
It's actually the other way around. The fact we don't get newcomers winning indicates stagnation/lower level of competitiveness. In all sports/esports we see this pattern. When we don't see it it's a sign not enough new players play it. This means the old guard continues to be the best. If Sc2 was still as popular as it was in the earlier days, majority of the current old top 30 players would have been replaced by now. I think Balnazza summed it up quite well. On September 09 2025 23:50 ejozl wrote:
[quote]
Maru was only top 2, yet that far greater than what serral achieved in this time, all I remember from him was playing 1 single impressive bo3 vs. jaedong. I talked about race in this post because you said he wasn't even the clear number 1 terran in a period of top competition, yet serral has not been the top zerg for many of his years and there are 3 of the damn buggers in top 4 in terms of achievements counting this same time, meanwhile I don't even know who the next terran would be after maru. Maru = king of terran, serral = one other zerg in the great succession of zergs. I never said that Serral was any good in that era. Another user claimed that Maru reigned in it when he was the 2nd best Terran and top 7th-10th overall at best, thus the notion is nonsense. So I don't get your point. And what does it even matter that Serral only exploded after finishing school and turning full time pro, when he surpassed everyone - including Maru - after he did so? Or why does it matter that some Zerg players could keep up with Serral some years? Some Terrans predated Maru. INno's 2019 also was arguably better than Maru's... TY won 2 GSLs in 2020. Cure won a GSL in 2021, Maru none. And while Terrans like Oli and Clem won the World Championship, Maru did not. I am not really sure what these fragmented views should prove to be honest, as overall Serral is by far the best statistical player from 2018 onwards, meaning for half the game's existence. No other player that played alongside him, after he turned his full attention towards the game is in any way, shape or form comparable and he is way ahead in any relevant metric to measure greatness. No idea how you are able to ignore Mvp and INno in a "great succession of Terrans" or what these obscure lines of argumentation should prove. Maru has an insanely good resume but Serral's is simply better. No shame in that. These recent discussions do both of them absolutely no justice. On September 10 2025 03:05 Mizenhauer wrote:
Welcome to Brood War!
lol My point is that maru even from 2018 and forward is the bigger outlier, and this was AFTER he was named the 4th race in hots. Back then domination in the same way wasn't possible, even mvp who was crowned by many the goat wasn't the favourite for most of his tournament wins, so implying it isn't impressive to be top 2 terran in 2015 is dumb. Statistics might be impressive, but I guess the last ever samurai probably also had a pretty good record in terms of dueling.. But he wasn't. Serral clearly is the bigger outlier statistically against every other player. I don't see anyone coming close to him in average place, tournament participation win ratios, tournament wins, match win rates or Aligulac rating. Where do you think Maru is better than Serral? I never said that it wasn't impressive being the 2nd best Terran. I simply corrected someone who said that Maru reigned in the most competitive era, when he was at best in the top7/8. Reigning means being the best or most important in a particular situation, which Maru was not back then. Okay, so serral is the bigger outlier in terms of win rate, and maru is the bigger outlier in terms of carrying its race burden. I think he's got a case for achievements which is the only thing that matters in the debate for me, and when you count in era it becomes strong as hell, and when you count in race it becomes overwhelming. I think the reigned word was probably just a bad wod choice, but all these words get synonymous in e-sport, he reigned, he terrorized, he dominated and etc. I would say a player like MC reigned, even though he might not've been the statistical best, in the way that he dominated the show and flew everywhere all the time. As for the 2nd best that's a dumb argument, you would all agree maru > dear, even though you would say maru wasn't the best at a time, when dear was for a very brief moment. Serral's and Maru's achievements only become comparable if you entirely disregard his region-locks. To make Maru be better than Serral with an era-justification, you'd have to pump up era as a metric so much that other players who won a lot more in the prime-era will overtake Maru, as most of his accomplishments are outside of the prime-era. That is shown when constant, non-changeable multipliers are tied to the results of these players. And this "carrying-one's-race-burden" thing... How would you even measure it? How do you incorporate the fact that there were 3 Terran world champions since Maru won his first big tournament, while he was never able to do it? Or how TY won 2 GSLs in 2020 and Maru none? Or how would you control for your race simply having one or two more good players, instead of race itself being an issue? Would you analyze this whole-career-wise or on a yearly basis? Against single players who played in the same race? I have a hunch that herO would overtake Maru in a setup you described, as he had much more wins in the prime-era and carried his race when no one really else held the candle. But placing so many arbitrary restrictions on the discussion sounds more like a GOAT-order from wish imo. PS: And funny, I imagined your GOAT-metric-to-go would be prize money On September 11 2025 23:48 EEk1TwEEk wrote:On March 16 2024 08:18 Antithesis wrote:
Serral is the #1 Greatest of all Time.
Maru is doubtlessly the #2 behind him, though. U nuts? Serral never played gsl I think you just solved SC2! Why did no one else ever think of that? I have measured it hence why I know maru comes on top. I disregard region locks, his gsl vs. world and homestory cups by 3/4's because region lock doesn't feature koreans, and hsc (the ones he won) and gsl vs. the world are invitationals. Other players who have won during the prime years don't have 4 gsls or anything comparable, and terran was objectively weakest during this time. TY was a power house, but clearly not no/ 1, when maru is winning 4 gsls in a row. Serral not performing during the prime years, that zerg might've been OP, and serral not winning gsl - are all comparable to maru not being able to win a world championship. Oh.. but then.. he did. + Show Spoiler +
But forget it Jake, it's china town.
There's a lot to unpack. 1a. Would you upload the screenshots or send me the excel of the calculation? 1b. How exactly did you factor in era and the race-burden-thing? 2. What do you mean by "Terran was objectively weakest"? According to which metric/s? 3. Maru winning 4 GSLs was 2018 till early 2019. TY's wins were 2020. I am not making the argument that TY was the number 1 Terran... I simply wanted to know how exactly your race-burden-thing works. 4. The things you mentioned in your last sentence are all pretty heavily context-dependent and aren't really comparable like that in a one-liner. 5. Did you disregard/discount any other tournaments? You can see his absolute shit-show of a ranking hereThe main metric for this ranking is basically "everything that isn't GSL doesn't count, but also everything not won by Maru doesn't count because he wouldn't have enough points otherwise. Also Terran was the weakest race ever for some reason, even though during most of his GSL-wins Terran was overrepresented in GSL playoffs and multiple Terrans have won World Championships, except the 'Terran Hope', but that is because World Championships also only give out 1/60000 of points because they are not GSL during the prime-years between tuesday and thursday." Nah, can't be the same. He is talking about 3/4 deductions, which are never mentioned in the prize money mess. Some other things also don't align with the explanations in the other thread. @WombaT: Yeah.. consistency in application would for once be a really nice principle in these GOAT discussions.
I'm extremely consistent! I am also really interested in looking at the hots Protoss club.
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Just wanted to say, notice some people use winnings as a argument for "GOAT".
If you use that logic you have handful of players you would then call better than Michael Jordan?
Many had more tournament winnings and better contracts. L O L
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United States1913 Posts
On September 13 2025 19:00 Drahkn wrote:
Just wanted to say, notice some people use winnings as a argument for "GOAT".
If you use that logic you have handful of players you would then call better than Michael Jordan?
Many had more tournament winnings and better contracts. L O L
In a humorous twist, there are actually dozens and dozens of players who have higher career earnings because the salary cap has greatly risen since MJ played (despite MJ collecting about 60k over two years during the dynasty). However, one of the major players who is considered to have a greater career than MJ—Kareem—has made less than hundreds of players due to when he played and the financial situation of the league at the time. I know I took the bait, but your statement was too ironic to pass up.
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I's talking about my infamous prize earnings calculation that I updated, that's where era and balance extra points only come in on tournaments within the criteria(kr qualifiers&lan). This is why a taeja won hsc is 4 times more worth than a serral hsc win, because there were a gsl like qualifier to get there, and why I still think he holds the title for most hsc wins and consecutive wins.
You can call it shite, but it's pretty consistent shite, it's got loads of fiber.
It could be that both michael Jordan is the GOAT in that he was a one of, but probably not result wise, which is what I'm measuring, so unless that era was much stronger than the other eras he wouldn't have a shot in my rating. In that same way it could be that serral is the perfect specimen, but without the competition to test him up against, he's not my goat, at least not yet.
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Declaring the Zotac-Cup to be the pinnacle of SC2 and the only tournament that matters, therefore declaring Nerchio to be the GOAT is also very consistent shite. Even has a lot of fiber, there are far more than 200+ cups to look at after all.
...convinced?
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That's a good point, but what makes you think that zotac cup was the pinnacle?
Serral could become the goat now btw for now he's finally carrying his race for the first time and that is what shoots him ahead of dark and rogue. That and korean military service.
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On September 16 2025 20:53 ejozl wrote:
That's a good point, but what makes you think that zotac cup was the pinnacle?
Serral could become the goat now btw for now he's finally carrying his race for the first time and that is what shoots him ahead of dark and rogue. That and korean military service.
Why do you think TaeJa winning an HSC against the likes Jaedong, jjkaji and MMA is the greatest thing ever but Serral winning against Innovation, Trap, Zest, soO, Rogue, TaeJa himself and what not doesn't really count?
"It didn't have an Open Qualifier!" - What does an Open Qualifier do if the participants in the end are of much lower quality than in an invite-only tournament?
But hey, Zotac-Cup was completly open. It was weekly, so lots of chances to proof yourself. And it has its origins in Warcraft 3 which is the highest quality-mark you can have, clearly
Maru carried his race for like a month, stop pretending Terran didn't do anything for five years and poor Maru had to do it all on his own.
But hey, atleast I now finally remembered what your entire ranking reminded me off. There was always this *zing* in the back of my head that I have read something ridiculous as that. It's...the rules of Quidditch.
"So there is this very easy to understand concept of how you score points, just win tournaments and earn prizemoney."
"Okay, yeah, got it."
"There are also these eras and balance-pretentions flying around trying to diminish your points"
"Okay...bit odd, but I guess it makes the game more exciting?"
"And then there is this tiny segment of the entire scene and winning that gives you a gazillion points!"
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On September 16 2025 23:21 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2025 20:53 ejozl wrote:
That's a good point, but what makes you think that zotac cup was the pinnacle?
Serral could become the goat now btw for now he's finally carrying his race for the first time and that is what shoots him ahead of dark and rogue. That and korean military service. Why do you think TaeJa winning an HSC against the likes Jaedong, jjkaji and MMA is the greatest thing ever but Serral winning against Innovation, Trap, Zest, soO, Rogue, TaeJa himself and what not doesn't really count? "It didn't have an Open Qualifier!" - What does an Open Qualifier do if the participants in the end are of much lower quality than in an invite-only tournament? But hey, Zotac-Cup was completly open. It was weekly, so lots of chances to proof yourself. And it has its origins in Warcraft 3 which is the highest quality-mark you can have, clearly Maru carried his race for like a month, stop pretending Terran didn't do anything for five years and poor Maru had to do it all on his own. But hey, atleast I now finally remembered what your entire ranking reminded me off. There was always this *zing* in the back of my head that I have read something ridiculous as that. It's...the rules of Quidditch. "So there is this very easy to understand concept of how you score points, just win tournaments and earn prizemoney." "Okay, yeah, got it." "There are also these eras and balance-pretentions flying around trying to diminish your points" "Okay...bit odd, but I guess it makes the game more exciting?" "And then there is this tiny segment of the entire scene and winning that gives you a gazillion points!"
A month in 2014-2016 had more or less the same amount of series played than the entire 2025. Just saying....
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 2014 Global StarCraft II League Season 2/Code S
Idk why people lie about easily provable things. This is 2014 season 2 off the top of my head because I remember this dog map pool and getting blink all ind every game.
Maru is the only terran in the r08 and one of four terrans in code s period.
Edit: also looked up 2014 season 1. Only 1 terran in the ro8 (guess who) and 3 terrans in code s. But yeah Maru wasn't carrying his race and if he did it was only for a month lmao
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Northern Ireland26261 Posts
On September 17 2025 06:54 Moonerz wrote:2014 Global StarCraft II League Season 2/Code SIdk why people lie about easily provable things. This is 2014 season 2 off the top of my head because I remember this dog map pool and getting blink all ind every game. Maru is the only terran in the r08 and one of four terrans in code s period.
A short period in the wider scheme of things.
Inno won more than him in the Kespa era. Multiple other Terrans won GSLs subsequently, Oliveira won a WC. Clem subsequently won a WC.
But he carried Terran apparently and that makes him the GOAT?
It strikes me as a strange argument. It’s not Serral’s fault there were other good Zergs existed.
While not every single year, on average he was the best Zerg, and best overall player for like 7+ years.
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On September 17 2025 06:54 Moonerz wrote:2014 Global StarCraft II League Season 2/Code SIdk why people lie about easily provable things. This is 2014 season 2 off the top of my head because I remember this dog map pool and getting blink all ind every game. Maru is the only terran in the r08 and one of four terrans in code s period. Edit: also looked up 2014 season 1. Only 1 terran in the ro8 (guess who) and 3 terrans in code s. But yeah Maru wasn't carrying his race and if he did it was only for a month lmao
As I said earlier: In almost all of his GSL-wins there Terran was atleast normally represented in the Ro8, I think two-times Terran was even in the majority. But yes, Maru carried the race for like six months...in one region btw. Terran wasn't doing great internationally, but it was okay. At the backend of that stretch TaeJa even won two tournaments back-to-back (HSC and DreamHack). And in that very year one Terran even won GSL S3...surprise, not the "Terran Hope", but Innovation. The "Terran hope" couldn't even make it into the Ro8.
Also in that same year Maru did have the most wins in Proleague...but if you look at the individual matchups, his only noteworthy matchup winrate-wise was TvT. Bbyong and Flash, the next two best Terrans, had similiar or even better winrates against Zerg and Protoss.
So the "Terran Hope" was mostly good for...killing Terrans. Pretty sure there is a story-wise joke in there...
The sarcastic commentary aside: Maru did good in 2014. Great even. But to pretend he carried the race for the entirety of the super-duper-hardcore-elite-supreme-era of SC2 is just nonsense.
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Northern Ireland26261 Posts
On September 17 2025 07:22 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2025 06:54 Moonerz wrote:2014 Global StarCraft II League Season 2/Code SIdk why people lie about easily provable things. This is 2014 season 2 off the top of my head because I remember this dog map pool and getting blink all ind every game. Maru is the only terran in the r08 and one of four terrans in code s period. Edit: also looked up 2014 season 1. Only 1 terran in the ro8 (guess who) and 3 terrans in code s. But yeah Maru wasn't carrying his race and if he did it was only for a month lmao As I said earlier: In almost all of his GSL-wins there Terran was atleast normally represented in the Ro8, I think two-times Terran was even in the majority. But yes, Maru carried the race for like six months...in one region btw. Terran wasn't doing great internationally, but it was okay. At the backend of that stretch TaeJa even won two tournaments back-to-back (HSC and DreamHack). And in that very year one Terran even won GSL S3...surprise, not the "Terran Hope", but Innovation. The "Terran hope" couldn't even make it into the Ro8. Also in that same year Maru did have the most wins in Proleague...but if you look at the individual matchups, his only noteworthy matchup winrate-wise was TvT. Bbyong and Flash, the next two best Terrans, had similiar or even better winrates against Zerg and Protoss. So the "Terran Hope" was mostly good for...killing Terrans. Pretty sure there is a story-wise joke in there... The sarcastic commentary aside: Maru did good in 2014. Great even. But to pretend he carried the race for the entirety of the super-duper-hardcore-elite-supreme-era of SC2 is just nonsense.
This.
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France12909 Posts
On September 17 2025 07:22 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2025 06:54 Moonerz wrote:2014 Global StarCraft II League Season 2/Code SIdk why people lie about easily provable things. This is 2014 season 2 off the top of my head because I remember this dog map pool and getting blink all ind every game. Maru is the only terran in the r08 and one of four terrans in code s period. Edit: also looked up 2014 season 1. Only 1 terran in the ro8 (guess who) and 3 terrans in code s. But yeah Maru wasn't carrying his race and if he did it was only for a month lmao As I said earlier: In almost all of his GSL-wins there Terran was atleast normally represented in the Ro8, I think two-times Terran was even in the majority. But yes, Maru carried the race for like six months...in one region btw. Terran wasn't doing great internationally, but it was okay. At the backend of that stretch TaeJa even won two tournaments back-to-back (HSC and DreamHack). And in that very year one Terran even won GSL S3...surprise, not the "Terran Hope", but Innovation. The "Terran hope" couldn't even make it into the Ro8. Also in that same year Maru did have the most wins in Proleague...but if you look at the individual matchups, his only noteworthy matchup winrate-wise was TvT. Bbyong and Flash, the next two best Terrans, had similiar or even better winrates against Zerg and Protoss. So the "Terran Hope" was mostly good for...killing Terrans. Pretty sure there is a story-wise joke in there... The sarcastic commentary aside: Maru did good in 2014. Great even. But to pretend he carried the race for the entirety of the super-duper-hardcore-elite-supreme-era of SC2 is just nonsense.
Maru was carrying terran for like five years straight when it was doing, overall, poorly
Like he was the sole favorite for any world championship win
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There's clearly a big difference between carried the race for a month vs carried it for the majority of the year vs the entirety of the giga sc2 era.
Also pretty sure the summer tournaments were on a different patch. I'd have to look into it to confirm. Inno won gsl s3 that year and there was much better terran representation just don't remember the timing of the patches.
Also no disrespect to HSC as a whole but seriously look at that roster. Who's the second best player after taeja? Mma/mc/patience? Stork perhaps? That's not comparable to code s or even code a at that time
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Northern Ireland26261 Posts
On September 17 2025 07:47 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2025 07:22 Balnazza wrote:On September 17 2025 06:54 Moonerz wrote:2014 Global StarCraft II League Season 2/Code SIdk why people lie about easily provable things. This is 2014 season 2 off the top of my head because I remember this dog map pool and getting blink all ind every game. Maru is the only terran in the r08 and one of four terrans in code s period. Edit: also looked up 2014 season 1. Only 1 terran in the ro8 (guess who) and 3 terrans in code s. But yeah Maru wasn't carrying his race and if he did it was only for a month lmao As I said earlier: In almost all of his GSL-wins there Terran was atleast normally represented in the Ro8, I think two-times Terran was even in the majority. But yes, Maru carried the race for like six months...in one region btw. Terran wasn't doing great internationally, but it was okay. At the backend of that stretch TaeJa even won two tournaments back-to-back (HSC and DreamHack). And in that very year one Terran even won GSL S3...surprise, not the "Terran Hope", but Innovation. The "Terran hope" couldn't even make it into the Ro8. Also in that same year Maru did have the most wins in Proleague...but if you look at the individual matchups, his only noteworthy matchup winrate-wise was TvT. Bbyong and Flash, the next two best Terrans, had similiar or even better winrates against Zerg and Protoss. So the "Terran Hope" was mostly good for...killing Terrans. Pretty sure there is a story-wise joke in there... The sarcastic commentary aside: Maru did good in 2014. Great even. But to pretend he carried the race for the entirety of the super-duper-hardcore-elite-supreme-era of SC2 is just nonsense. Maru was carrying terran for like five years straight when it was doing, overall, poorly Like he was the sole favorite for any world championship win
What 5 years? When did that happen? When is this mythical period where Maru was carrying Terran for 5 years straight?
Was it when Inno won more than him? Or when we had multiple Terran GSL champions who weren’t Maru, or when a Terran who wasn’t Maru won a World Champ, or another Terran who wasn’t Maru won a World Champ?
When is this mythical period?
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France12909 Posts
On September 17 2025 08:11 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2025 07:47 Poopi wrote:On September 17 2025 07:22 Balnazza wrote:On September 17 2025 06:54 Moonerz wrote:2014 Global StarCraft II League Season 2/Code SIdk why people lie about easily provable things. This is 2014 season 2 off the top of my head because I remember this dog map pool and getting blink all ind every game. Maru is the only terran in the r08 and one of four terrans in code s period. Edit: also looked up 2014 season 1. Only 1 terran in the ro8 (guess who) and 3 terrans in code s. But yeah Maru wasn't carrying his race and if he did it was only for a month lmao As I said earlier: In almost all of his GSL-wins there Terran was atleast normally represented in the Ro8, I think two-times Terran was even in the majority. But yes, Maru carried the race for like six months...in one region btw. Terran wasn't doing great internationally, but it was okay. At the backend of that stretch TaeJa even won two tournaments back-to-back (HSC and DreamHack). And in that very year one Terran even won GSL S3...surprise, not the "Terran Hope", but Innovation. The "Terran hope" couldn't even make it into the Ro8. Also in that same year Maru did have the most wins in Proleague...but if you look at the individual matchups, his only noteworthy matchup winrate-wise was TvT. Bbyong and Flash, the next two best Terrans, had similiar or even better winrates against Zerg and Protoss. So the "Terran Hope" was mostly good for...killing Terrans. Pretty sure there is a story-wise joke in there... The sarcastic commentary aside: Maru did good in 2014. Great even. But to pretend he carried the race for the entirety of the super-duper-hardcore-elite-supreme-era of SC2 is just nonsense. Maru was carrying terran for like five years straight when it was doing, overall, poorly Like he was the sole favorite for any world championship win What 5 years? When did that happen? When is this mythical period where Maru was carrying Terran for 5 years straight? Was it when Inno won more than him? Or when we had multiple Terran GSL champions who weren’t Maru, or when a Terran who wasn’t Maru won a World Champ, or another Terran who wasn’t Maru won a World Champ? When is this mythical period?
Maru carrying terran alone in both 2018 and 2019, best hope as well in IEM 2020, and until like 2022-2023.
So maybe actually 6 years
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Northern Ireland26261 Posts
On September 17 2025 08:20 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2025 08:11 WombaT wrote:On September 17 2025 07:47 Poopi wrote:On September 17 2025 07:22 Balnazza wrote:On September 17 2025 06:54 Moonerz wrote:2014 Global StarCraft II League Season 2/Code SIdk why people lie about easily provable things. This is 2014 season 2 off the top of my head because I remember this dog map pool and getting blink all ind every game. Maru is the only terran in the r08 and one of four terrans in code s period. Edit: also looked up 2014 season 1. Only 1 terran in the ro8 (guess who) and 3 terrans in code s. But yeah Maru wasn't carrying his race and if he did it was only for a month lmao As I said earlier: In almost all of his GSL-wins there Terran was atleast normally represented in the Ro8, I think two-times Terran was even in the majority. But yes, Maru carried the race for like six months...in one region btw. Terran wasn't doing great internationally, but it was okay. At the backend of that stretch TaeJa even won two tournaments back-to-back (HSC and DreamHack). And in that very year one Terran even won GSL S3...surprise, not the "Terran Hope", but Innovation. The "Terran hope" couldn't even make it into the Ro8. Also in that same year Maru did have the most wins in Proleague...but if you look at the individual matchups, his only noteworthy matchup winrate-wise was TvT. Bbyong and Flash, the next two best Terrans, had similiar or even better winrates against Zerg and Protoss. So the "Terran Hope" was mostly good for...killing Terrans. Pretty sure there is a story-wise joke in there... The sarcastic commentary aside: Maru did good in 2014. Great even. But to pretend he carried the race for the entirety of the super-duper-hardcore-elite-supreme-era of SC2 is just nonsense. Maru was carrying terran for like five years straight when it was doing, overall, poorly Like he was the sole favorite for any world championship win What 5 years? When did that happen? When is this mythical period where Maru was carrying Terran for 5 years straight? Was it when Inno won more than him? Or when we had multiple Terran GSL champions who weren’t Maru, or when a Terran who wasn’t Maru won a World Champ, or another Terran who wasn’t Maru won a World Champ? When is this mythical period? Maru carrying terran alone in both 2018 and 2019, best hope as well in IEM 2020, and until like 2022-2023. So maybe actually 6 years
Being the best Terran isn’t carrying.
He played a fucking TvT final in 2018 GSL how is he carrying? TY subsequently won two of them, Cure got one and made finals.
It’s a complete myth. Moon legitimately had a claim to being the fifth race in WC3, Maru’s knockoff nick isn’t really deserved.
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EPT
