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On September 07 2025 16:19 Argonauta wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2025 15:00 PremoBeats wrote:On September 07 2025 05:59 ejozl wrote:
I wouldn't say reigned as that is suggesting like a king, and he wasn't so since there was also innovation. But in 2015 he was top 2 without question and he was far more popular. Basically, every ladder terran was trying to be Maru and to their detriment. Then he reigned as king from 2018 and forward, and much more like a king than you can say about serral. ink Serral's post-2018 needs to be much stronger in the context of Miz' analysis (in my opinion it is in all relevant metrics... by far). How else could Serral have overtaken Maru in the update, given that Maru definitely "scored more points" up until 2018? Because he didn't. It is just the narrative of the talking heads of the scene driven several factors: * The need to create a sense of "game is healthy as ever". * The idea that a foreign dominated scene will revitalize the game. * The proximity of the majority of casters/media of the esports towards the non-koreans players in terms of friendship or acquaintance. That is it.
You don't think Serral outclassed all other players including Maru post 2018 - independent of Miz' analysis, in which Serral was put ahead of Maru in the update?
Arguing that the game is as healthy after 15 years of course would be questionable.
But Serral outmatched everyone starting from 2018 on all measurable metrics, when most of the big names were still around and emerging Koreans like Dark that were still growing in the prime era, as well as international talent, began to rise. That was an extremely competitive landscape. And no single player was able to keep up with Serral post-2018.
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There is no way in which Maru can be placed ahead of Serral when factoring out Maru's pre-2018 activity. As every GoaT debate shows, the single reason why Maru can be evaluated to be in the proximity of Serral at all (but, in the view of nearly everyone at this point, not ahead of him) is the very fact that he was active and achieved results already before 2018, which are adding to his post-2018 results.
But there is no question that when comparing post-2018 achievements alone, Serral is way ahead of Maru. To mention just the obvious point, Serral is a three-times (four-times when counting Kato'24) World Champion, a title Maru has claimed not once.
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On September 07 2025 23:19 PremoBeats wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2025 16:19 Argonauta wrote:On September 07 2025 15:00 PremoBeats wrote:On September 07 2025 05:59 ejozl wrote:
I wouldn't say reigned as that is suggesting like a king, and he wasn't so since there was also innovation. But in 2015 he was top 2 without question and he was far more popular. Basically, every ladder terran was trying to be Maru and to their detriment. Then he reigned as king from 2018 and forward, and much more like a king than you can say about serral. ink Serral's post-2018 needs to be much stronger in the context of Miz' analysis (in my opinion it is in all relevant metrics... by far). How else could Serral have overtaken Maru in the update, given that Maru definitely "scored more points" up until 2018? Because he didn't. It is just the narrative of the talking heads of the scene driven several factors: * The need to create a sense of "game is healthy as ever". * The idea that a foreign dominated scene will revitalize the game. * The proximity of the majority of casters/media of the esports towards the non-koreans players in terms of friendship or acquaintance. That is it. You don't think Serral outclassed all other players including Maru post 2018 - independent of Miz' analysis, in which Serral was put ahead of Maru in the update? Arguing that the game is as healthy after 15 years of course would be questionable. But Serral outmatched everyone starting from 2018 on all measurable metrics, when most of the big names were still around and emerging Koreans like Dark that were still growing in the prime era, as well as international talent, began to rise. That was an extremely competitive landscape. And no single player was able to keep up with Serral post-2018.
I think Serral is king of a shallow and dying scene and Maru was the best player overall during the competitive era of the e-sport.
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On September 08 2025 00:22 Antithesis wrote:
There is no way in which Maru can be placed ahead of Serral when factoring out Maru's pre-2018 activity. As every GoaT debate shows, the single reason why Maru can be evaluated to be in the proximity of Serral at all (but, in the view of nearly everyone at this point, not ahead of him) is the very fact that he was active and achieved results already before 2018, which are adding to his post-2018 results.
But there is no question that when comparing post-2018 achievements alone, Serral is way ahead of Maru. To mention just the obvious point, Serral is a three-times (four-times when counting Kato'24) World Champion, a title Maru has claimed not once.
But dividing results into pre-2018 and post-2018 isn't the only plausible way to divide eras. In fact I'd say it's a rather bad way because of the vast difference in competitiveness when comparing 2018 to 2025.
I'd say the argument for Maru is that Serral absolutely needs his results from 2023 onwards to be regarded highly to be ranked ahead of Maru. So results in an era where GSL had to downsize because they couldn't fill 32 slots anymore and the vast majority of the koreans had to take a 2 year break due to military service.
So if you're of the opinion that the major fall-of in competitiveness happened somewhere around 2022-24 and results after that should be heavily discounted than Maru would be the Goat. I don't think this logic is that far of a reach.
imo it's not enough to make Maru the Goat but mainly due to his failure to win a world championship.
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On September 08 2025 03:28 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2025 00:22 Antithesis wrote:
There is no way in which Maru can be placed ahead of Serral when factoring out Maru's pre-2018 activity. As every GoaT debate shows, the single reason why Maru can be evaluated to be in the proximity of Serral at all (but, in the view of nearly everyone at this point, not ahead of him) is the very fact that he was active and achieved results already before 2018, which are adding to his post-2018 results.
But there is no question that when comparing post-2018 achievements alone, Serral is way ahead of Maru. To mention just the obvious point, Serral is a three-times (four-times when counting Kato'24) World Champion, a title Maru has claimed not once. But dividing results into pre-2018 and post-2018 isn't the only plausible way to divide eras. In fact I'd say it's a rather bad way because of the vast difference in competitiveness when comparing 2018 to 2025.
I responded to a particular claim, which I did not quote because of the context, but it was this:
On September 07 2025 05:59 ejozl wrote:
Then he [Maru] reigned as king from 2018 and forward, and much more like a king than you can say about serral.
Which is false through and through, however one puts it, for the reasons I stated.
But yeah, it is clear that the pre-/post-2018 division is neither the only nor the best way to classify SC2's competitive eras.
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On September 08 2025 03:35 Antithesis wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2025 03:28 Charoisaur wrote:On September 08 2025 00:22 Antithesis wrote:
There is no way in which Maru can be placed ahead of Serral when factoring out Maru's pre-2018 activity. As every GoaT debate shows, the single reason why Maru can be evaluated to be in the proximity of Serral at all (but, in the view of nearly everyone at this point, not ahead of him) is the very fact that he was active and achieved results already before 2018, which are adding to his post-2018 results.
But there is no question that when comparing post-2018 achievements alone, Serral is way ahead of Maru. To mention just the obvious point, Serral is a three-times (four-times when counting Kato'24) World Champion, a title Maru has claimed not once. But dividing results into pre-2018 and post-2018 isn't the only plausible way to divide eras. In fact I'd say it's a rather bad way because of the vast difference in competitiveness when comparing 2018 to 2025. I responded to a particular claim, which I did not quote because of the context, but it was this: Show nested quote +On September 07 2025 05:59 ejozl wrote:
Then he [Maru] reigned as king from 2018 and forward, and much more like a king than you can say about serral. Which is false through and through, however one puts it, for the reasons I stated. But yeah, it is clear that the pre-/post-2018 division is neither the only nor the best way to classify SC2's competitive eras.
I agree 2018-2019 were still fairly competitive. I mean is not a switch, Its a constant slow decline.
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On September 08 2025 02:22 Argonauta wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2025 23:19 PremoBeats wrote:On September 07 2025 16:19 Argonauta wrote:On September 07 2025 15:00 PremoBeats wrote:On September 07 2025 05:59 ejozl wrote:
I wouldn't say reigned as that is suggesting like a king, and he wasn't so since there was also innovation. But in 2015 he was top 2 without question and he was far more popular. Basically, every ladder terran was trying to be Maru and to their detriment. Then he reigned as king from 2018 and forward, and much more like a king than you can say about serral. ink Serral's post-2018 needs to be much stronger in the context of Miz' analysis (in my opinion it is in all relevant metrics... by far). How else could Serral have overtaken Maru in the update, given that Maru definitely "scored more points" up until 2018? Because he didn't. It is just the narrative of the talking heads of the scene driven several factors: * The need to create a sense of "game is healthy as ever". * The idea that a foreign dominated scene will revitalize the game. * The proximity of the majority of casters/media of the esports towards the non-koreans players in terms of friendship or acquaintance. That is it. You don't think Serral outclassed all other players including Maru post 2018 - independent of Miz' analysis, in which Serral was put ahead of Maru in the update? Arguing that the game is as healthy after 15 years of course would be questionable. But Serral outmatched everyone starting from 2018 on all measurable metrics, when most of the big names were still around and emerging Koreans like Dark that were still growing in the prime era, as well as international talent, began to rise. That was an extremely competitive landscape. And no single player was able to keep up with Serral post-2018. I think Serral is king of a shallow and dying scene and Maru was the best player overall during the competitive era of the e-sport.
What does "best" mean to you? And when was that "competitive era"?
King of a shallow and dying scene... hmm. I don't know. As I said in the other thread. Many players didn't even reach their full potential in 2016 and only some really big names were lost until 2020.
If you are trying to argue like that, you can't be surprised if Maru is called "King of a shallow and dying Korean scene", as he amassed most his titles at the same time as Serral, was never able to best the world stage and won over half of his tournaments in the absence of the international beasts, especially the statistically best player to ever play the game.
I really don't like when the discussion takes such unreflective turns or discredit Maru's legacy but that would be the logical follow-up to Serral being the king of a shallow and dying scene.
On September 08 2025 03:28 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2025 00:22 Antithesis wrote:
There is no way in which Maru can be placed ahead of Serral when factoring out Maru's pre-2018 activity. As every GoaT debate shows, the single reason why Maru can be evaluated to be in the proximity of Serral at all (but, in the view of nearly everyone at this point, not ahead of him) is the very fact that he was active and achieved results already before 2018, which are adding to his post-2018 results.
But there is no question that when comparing post-2018 achievements alone, Serral is way ahead of Maru. To mention just the obvious point, Serral is a three-times (four-times when counting Kato'24) World Champion, a title Maru has claimed not once. I'd say the argument for Maru is that Serral absolutely needs his results from 2023 onwards to be regarded highly to be ranked ahead of Maru. So results in an era where GSL had to downsize because they couldn't fill 32 slots anymore and the vast majority of the koreans had to take a 2 year break due to military service.
I wouldn't say "absolutely". By the end of 2022, Serral won two World Championships, defeated the Koreans twice in Korea, squashed all big Korean names with insane statistics and amassed a similar big tournament title count with top Korean participation in 5 years compared to Maru in 10 years, while not competing in GSL/GSL Supers to contest Maru's win and thus missing out on over 26 potential tournament wins (with over 36% tournament participation win rate in that time frame). Add to that the underdog-story of the Finnish bloke challenging the players forged by the unbeatable million-dollar-machine and I think Serral's case can be made already in 2022.
I'd agree that post-2022 absolutely cements his status... but by the end of 2022 he could very well rival Maru's case imo.
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On September 06 2025 16:08 PremoBeats wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2025 22:52 MJG wrote:On August 15 2025 22:30 TropicalHaze wrote:The discussion here has gone to a weird direction of "was Serral #1 player for every single second, minute and hour counting from 2018 to now". The main point being IMO that we can easily agree that for the most part he was and still is and taking a look at the thread we are currently on - in hindsight calling Maru #1 has aged like a milk even though it was already a controversial pick back when this thread was created  In hindsight the SC2 scene has aged like milk since 2016. I mean, no one is forcing anyone to watch and comment on a game that they dislike. You wrote, that you are still passionate, but passion sounds different to me 
I'm also very passionate about Manchester United. That passion doesn't blind me to the fact that we're no longer doing as well as we did in the 1990s and 2000s.
On September 06 2025 16:08 PremoBeats wrote:
Skill ceilings,
I actually think that the skill ceiling has been lowered by the neutering of strategic diversity, and that factors heavily into how much I enjoy Legacy of the Void. It's only my opinion, but I believe the game got worse with each successive expansion, because Blizzard chose to focus too heavily on fast expansions and worker harassment.
On September 06 2025 16:08 PremoBeats wrote:
how post-military players triumphed,
That going into the military isn't akin to retirement is emblematic of the scene being considerably weaker/shallower than it was in Wings of Liberty and Heart of the Swarm. This isn't something to be celebrated.
On September 06 2025 16:08 PremoBeats wrote:
new legacies being built,
You can't really build a legacy in a weaker/shallower scene.
On September 06 2025 16:08 PremoBeats wrote:
the engagement from all the content creators...
We've always had plenty of engagement from content creators and that's amazing. We no longer have consistent engagement from major eSports organisations and that's concerning.
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On September 08 2025 02:22 Argonauta wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2025 23:19 PremoBeats wrote:On September 07 2025 16:19 Argonauta wrote:On September 07 2025 15:00 PremoBeats wrote:On September 07 2025 05:59 ejozl wrote:
I wouldn't say reigned as that is suggesting like a king, and he wasn't so since there was also innovation. But in 2015 he was top 2 without question and he was far more popular. Basically, every ladder terran was trying to be Maru and to their detriment. Then he reigned as king from 2018 and forward, and much more like a king than you can say about serral. ink Serral's post-2018 needs to be much stronger in the context of Miz' analysis (in my opinion it is in all relevant metrics... by far). How else could Serral have overtaken Maru in the update, given that Maru definitely "scored more points" up until 2018? Because he didn't. It is just the narrative of the talking heads of the scene driven several factors: * The need to create a sense of "game is healthy as ever". * The idea that a foreign dominated scene will revitalize the game. * The proximity of the majority of casters/media of the esports towards the non-koreans players in terms of friendship or acquaintance. That is it. You don't think Serral outclassed all other players including Maru post 2018 - independent of Miz' analysis, in which Serral was put ahead of Maru in the update? Arguing that the game is as healthy after 15 years of course would be questionable. But Serral outmatched everyone starting from 2018 on all measurable metrics, when most of the big names were still around and emerging Koreans like Dark that were still growing in the prime era, as well as international talent, began to rise. That was an extremely competitive landscape. And no single player was able to keep up with Serral post-2018. I think Serral is king of a shallow and dying scene and Maru was the best player overall during the competitive era of the e-sport.
That is hard coping. Serral is the consensus goat by both the pros and, casters, and audience.
Maru best overall player during competitive era? lol. The kid was borderline “gate keeper”. Based on pre 2018 results, Maru wasn’t even a top 3 terran. Not even top 10 player. The best thing that happen to Maru was post 2018 and once all his competition starts to retire or went to military.
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All but one of Maru's achievements come from 2018 and onward and in that timeframe Serral is just sooooooo much better in every metric...
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this thread has no sense.......It's hard to accept, but Serral is better in every way, except he hasn't won a single GSL.
Ask the same Pros who play in the GSL who they think would win if Serral participated, especially if Clem doesn't.
It's so rare to see him lose that it becomes a thread all by itself: "Look, Classic beat them, now Classic is better."
They focus on seeing the trees, not the forest.
And not only that... it's keeping him there for 7 or 8 years...phew, something that definitely can't be said about Maru.
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On September 07 2025 15:00 PremoBeats wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2025 05:59 ejozl wrote:
I wouldn't say reigned as that is suggesting like a king, and he wasn't so since there was also innovation. But in 2015 he was top 2 without question and he was far more popular. Basically, every ladder terran was trying to be Maru and to their detriment. Then he reigned as king from 2018 and forward, and much more like a king than you can say about serral. Top 2 Terran or overall in 2015 in your opinion? Because sOs, INno, Rain, Life and even herO or Classic could all be placed above Maru's 2015, depending on which metrics/accolades one focuses on. What exactly do you mean by Maru reigning more like a king than Serral? A crown-less king, as he never won a World Championship? On a more serious note: I think Serral's post-2018 needs to be much stronger in the context of Miz' analysis (in my opinion it is in all relevant metrics... by far). How else could Serral have overtaken Maru in the update, given that Maru definitely "scored more points" up until 2018?
No, I wasn't trying to be hyperbolic, I was addressing this by you: "
Or if he explained how Maru reigned, if he wasn't even the most dominant Terran player for extended periods at peak competitiveness"
Maru was top 2 terran in 2015. And maru reigned as the king of terran moreso than serral the king of zerg from 2018 and forward.
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On September 08 2025 19:46 MJG wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2025 16:08 PremoBeats wrote:On August 15 2025 22:52 MJG wrote:On August 15 2025 22:30 TropicalHaze wrote:The discussion here has gone to a weird direction of "was Serral #1 player for every single second, minute and hour counting from 2018 to now". The main point being IMO that we can easily agree that for the most part he was and still is and taking a look at the thread we are currently on - in hindsight calling Maru #1 has aged like a milk even though it was already a controversial pick back when this thread was created In hindsight the SC2 scene has aged like milk since 2016. I mean, no one is forcing anyone to watch and comment on a game that they dislike. You wrote, that you are still passionate, but passion sounds different to me I'm also very passionate about Manchester United. That passion doesn't blind me to the fact that we're no longer doing as well as we did in the 1990s and 2000s. I actually think that the skill ceiling has been lowered by the neutering of strategic diversity, and that factors heavily into how much I enjoy Legacy of the Void. It's only my opinion, but I believe the game got worse with each successive expansion, because Blizzard chose to focus too heavily on fast expansions and worker harassment. Show nested quote +On September 06 2025 16:08 PremoBeats wrote:
how post-military players triumphed, That going into the military isn't akin to retirement is emblematic of the scene being considerably weaker/shallower than it was in Wings of Liberty and Heart of the Swarm. This isn't something to be celebrated. You can't really build a legacy in a weaker/shallower scene. Show nested quote +On September 06 2025 16:08 PremoBeats wrote:
the engagement from all the content creators... We've always had plenty of engagement from content creators and that's amazing. We no longer have consistent engagement from major eSports organisations and that's concerning.
All good... everyone is entitled to their opinion of the game. It simply looked weird to me... but perhaps I only saw a couple of negative posts in a row and misjudged.
My opinion about the military differs quite a bit. If the scene was so much weaker, why don't we have young players like the 17/18-year-olds from WoL/HotS grabbing world cups and GSLs? It would be easy money, no?
My take is, that the needed qualities - especially entrance hurdles - changed over the course of the game (alongside financing and establishment of players, lesser patches, less impactful changes, fewer players, the emergence of one insanely good beast, etc.). SC2 became more stable and back in 2016 when the game was only 6 years old, players simply weren't old enough to go to military and return. And some didn't have it in them, to grind their way back, while others did.
2025 most definitely marked another cut with yet another change to GSL, only 4 high stakes tournaments and the late announcement of SC2's participation at EWC and I'd agree that the future doesn't look too bright. But hey, we fancy a 15-year-old game, which simply isn't made for the short attention spanned modern audience... gotta keep our heads high.
On September 08 2025 23:06 Harris1st wrote:
All but one of Maru's achievements come from 2018 and onward and in that timeframe Serral is just sooooooo much better in every metric...
Maru won an OSL and SSL and was an insanely good Proleague player.
But yeah... agree on Serral being much better in every metric.
On September 09 2025 02:28 ejozl wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2025 15:00 PremoBeats wrote:On September 07 2025 05:59 ejozl wrote:
I wouldn't say reigned as that is suggesting like a king, and he wasn't so since there was also innovation. But in 2015 he was top 2 without question and he was far more popular. Basically, every ladder terran was trying to be Maru and to their detriment. Then he reigned as king from 2018 and forward, and much more like a king than you can say about serral. Top 2 Terran or overall in 2015 in your opinion? Because sOs, INno, Rain, Life and even herO or Classic could all be placed above Maru's 2015, depending on which metrics/accolades one focuses on. What exactly do you mean by Maru reigning more like a king than Serral? A crown-less king, as he never won a World Championship? On a more serious note: I think Serral's post-2018 needs to be much stronger in the context of Miz' analysis (in my opinion it is in all relevant metrics... by far). How else could Serral have overtaken Maru in the update, given that Maru definitely "scored more points" up until 2018? No, I wasn't trying to be hyperbolic, I was addressing this by you: " Or if he explained how Maru reigned, if he wasn't even the most dominant Terran player for extended periods at peak competitiveness" Maru was top 2 terran in 2015. And maru reigned as the king of terran moreso than serral the king of zerg from 2018 and forward.
Maru was "only" the 2nd best Terran in 2015, not the entirety of prime SC2 as a congregate.
And on top only Terran, not overall. By the end of 2017, Mvp and INno - possibly other Terrans as well - were still ahead of Maru (I said several times that imo Maru overtook INno only in 2022, by which time Serral bypassed Maru).
I also don't understand why one would look at this through a race-perspective if not only to benefit Maru's claim, as Serral was clearly not only the best Zerg but clearly the best player overall. He literally is/was the king of all races (if one wants to implement these kinds of words), not only one, in all relevant metrics from 2018-2022, or 2018 until now.
And perhaps that's just me, but reigning to me is different from being the 2nd best player in one year of one race (in regards to Drahkn's post).
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My opinion about the military differs quite a bit. If the scene was so much weaker, why don't we have young players like the 17/18-year-olds from WoL/HotS grabbing world cups and GSLs? It would be easy money, no?
My take is, that the needed qualities - especially entrance hurdles - changed over the course of the game (alongside financing and establishment of players, lesser patches, less impactful changes, fewer players, the emergence of one insanely good beast, etc.). SC2 became more stable and back in 2016 when the game was only 6 years old, players simply weren't old enough to go to military and return. And some didn't have it in them, to grind their way back, while others did.
It's actually the other way around. The fact we don't get newcomers winning indicates stagnation/lower level of competitiveness. In all sports/esports we see this pattern. When we don't see it it's a sign not enough new players play it. This means the old guard continues to be the best. If Sc2 was still as popular as it was in the earlier days, majority of the current old top 30 players would have been replaced by now.
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On September 09 2025 16:54 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +My opinion about the military differs quite a bit. If the scene was so much weaker, why don't we have young players like the 17/18-year-olds from WoL/HotS grabbing world cups and GSLs? It would be easy money, no?
My take is, that the needed qualities - especially entrance hurdles - changed over the course of the game (alongside financing and establishment of players, lesser patches, less impactful changes, fewer players, the emergence of one insanely good beast, etc.). SC2 became more stable and back in 2016 when the game was only 6 years old, players simply weren't old enough to go to military and return. And some didn't have it in them, to grind their way back, while others did.
It's actually the other way around. The fact we don't get newcomers winning indicates stagnation/lower level of competitiveness. In all sports/esports we see this pattern. When we don't see it it's a sign not enough new players play it. This means the old guard continues to be the best. If Sc2 was still as popular as it was in the earlier days, majority of the current old top 30 players would have been replaced by now.
I would argue against that. I remember a few years ago, before AoE 2 DE came out, there was a discussion about the "young blood" in the scene. I think even TheViper himself, aka the AoE GOAT, said he could definetly imagine a lot of younger players climbing the scene, because the skill-ceiling isn't that high, which makes sense considering how few people played AoE 2 on a professional (aka. "main source of income") level at the time. And he was right, newcomers likes Hera could climb the ladder quite quickly. In fact, Hera is actually one of those guys and he is by far the best player in the game for a few years now.
If the SC2 skill-level was so low, a lot of BW players would just show up for EWC, play on one ass-cheek and win it all. But they don't even attempt it, even though the money is that good. Which proofs that there is still a very high skill-ceiling around the very best. Which in turn leads to this problem:
The skill-ceiling is quite high, so you can't just enter the game and win good money at EWC for example. But on the other hand, because the scene is so small and there is no team-structure, there is no stable way for newcomers to finance that way without huge personal risks.
If you would pick up SC2 today and decide you want to go pro and win the EWC next year, there are so many problems with that:
1)You have to play fulltime, no doubt. You can't just randomly pick up the game and crush Serral.
2)You have to close an experience- and skill-gap of almost ten years...and you have to do it alone, there are no teams or coaches that will help you
3)You have no income until you win something. Maybe you get some money from streaming, but that will in return diminish your training-output - and there isn't much to win
4)You don't even know IF there is an EWC next year
So in short, SC2 is at this weird place were the top-dogs are still too skilled at the game to be easily replaced, while the scene itself is too small to support new players. And without EWC, there is really no argument to even become a pro in SC2 anymore.
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On September 09 2025 16:03 PremoBeats wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2025 19:46 MJG wrote:On September 06 2025 16:08 PremoBeats wrote:On August 15 2025 22:52 MJG wrote:On August 15 2025 22:30 TropicalHaze wrote:The discussion here has gone to a weird direction of "was Serral #1 player for every single second, minute and hour counting from 2018 to now". The main point being IMO that we can easily agree that for the most part he was and still is and taking a look at the thread we are currently on - in hindsight calling Maru #1 has aged like a milk even though it was already a controversial pick back when this thread was created In hindsight the SC2 scene has aged like milk since 2016. I mean, no one is forcing anyone to watch and comment on a game that they dislike. You wrote, that you are still passionate, but passion sounds different to me I'm also very passionate about Manchester United. That passion doesn't blind me to the fact that we're no longer doing as well as we did in the 1990s and 2000s. On September 06 2025 16:08 PremoBeats wrote:
Skill ceilings, I actually think that the skill ceiling has been lowered by the neutering of strategic diversity, and that factors heavily into how much I enjoy Legacy of the Void. It's only my opinion, but I believe the game got worse with each successive expansion, because Blizzard chose to focus too heavily on fast expansions and worker harassment. On September 06 2025 16:08 PremoBeats wrote:
how post-military players triumphed, That going into the military isn't akin to retirement is emblematic of the scene being considerably weaker/shallower than it was in Wings of Liberty and Heart of the Swarm. This isn't something to be celebrated. On September 06 2025 16:08 PremoBeats wrote:
new legacies being built, You can't really build a legacy in a weaker/shallower scene. On September 06 2025 16:08 PremoBeats wrote:
the engagement from all the content creators... We've always had plenty of engagement from content creators and that's amazing. We no longer have consistent engagement from major eSports organisations and that's concerning. All good... everyone is entitled to their opinion of the game. It simply looked weird to me... but perhaps I only saw a couple of negative posts in a row and misjudged. My opinion about the military differs quite a bit. If the scene was so much weaker, why don't we have young players like the 17/18-year-olds from WoL/HotS grabbing world cups and GSLs? It would be easy money, no? My take is, that the needed qualities - especially entrance hurdles - changed over the course of the game (alongside financing and establishment of players, lesser patches, less impactful changes, fewer players, the emergence of one insanely good beast, etc.). SC2 became more stable and back in 2016 when the game was only 6 years old, players simply weren't old enough to go to military and return. And some didn't have it in them, to grind their way back, while others did. 2025 most definitely marked another cut with yet another change to GSL, only 4 high stakes tournaments and the late announcement of SC2's participation at EWC and I'd agree that the future doesn't look too bright. But hey, we fancy a 15-year-old game, which simply isn't made for the short attention spanned modern audience... gotta keep our heads high. Show nested quote +On September 08 2025 23:06 Harris1st wrote:
All but one of Maru's achievements come from 2018 and onward and in that timeframe Serral is just sooooooo much better in every metric... Maru won an OSL and SSL and was an insanely good Proleague player. But yeah... agree on Serral being much better in every metric. Show nested quote +On September 09 2025 02:28 ejozl wrote:On September 07 2025 15:00 PremoBeats wrote:On September 07 2025 05:59 ejozl wrote:
I wouldn't say reigned as that is suggesting like a king, and he wasn't so since there was also innovation. But in 2015 he was top 2 without question and he was far more popular. Basically, every ladder terran was trying to be Maru and to their detriment. Then he reigned as king from 2018 and forward, and much more like a king than you can say about serral. Top 2 Terran or overall in 2015 in your opinion? Because sOs, INno, Rain, Life and even herO or Classic could all be placed above Maru's 2015, depending on which metrics/accolades one focuses on. What exactly do you mean by Maru reigning more like a king than Serral? A crown-less king, as he never won a World Championship? On a more serious note: I think Serral's post-2018 needs to be much stronger in the context of Miz' analysis (in my opinion it is in all relevant metrics... by far). How else could Serral have overtaken Maru in the update, given that Maru definitely "scored more points" up until 2018? No, I wasn't trying to be hyperbolic, I was addressing this by you: " Or if he explained how Maru reigned, if he wasn't even the most dominant Terran player for extended periods at peak competitiveness" Maru was top 2 terran in 2015. And maru reigned as the king of terran moreso than serral the king of zerg from 2018 and forward. Maru was "only" the 2nd best Terran in 2015, not the entirety of prime SC2 as a congregate. And on top only Terran, not overall. By the end of 2017, Mvp and INno - possibly other Terrans as well - were still ahead of Maru (I said several times that imo Maru overtook INno only in 2022, by which time Serral bypassed Maru). I also don't understand why one would look at this through a race-perspective if not only to benefit Maru's claim, as Serral was clearly not only the best Zerg but clearly the best player overall. He literally is/was the king of all races (if one wants to implement these kinds of words), not only one, in all relevant metrics from 2018-2022, or 2018 until now. And perhaps that's just me, but reigning to me is different from being the 2nd best player in one year of one race (in regards to Drahkn's post).
Maru was only top 2, yet that far greater than what serral achieved in this time, all I remember from him was playing 1 single impressive bo3 vs. jaedong. I talked about race in this post because you said he wasn't even the clear number 1 terran in a period of top competition, yet serral has not been the top zerg for many of his years and there are 3 of the damn buggers in top 4 in terms of achievements counting this same time, meanwhile I don't even know who the next terran would be after maru. Maru = king of terran, serral = one other zerg in the great succession of zergs.
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Maru was the Terran Hope and the Fourth Race.
Some of you are clueless as hell.
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United States1913 Posts
On September 08 2025 19:46 MJG wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2025 16:08 PremoBeats wrote:On August 15 2025 22:52 MJG wrote:On August 15 2025 22:30 TropicalHaze wrote:The discussion here has gone to a weird direction of "was Serral #1 player for every single second, minute and hour counting from 2018 to now". The main point being IMO that we can easily agree that for the most part he was and still is and taking a look at the thread we are currently on - in hindsight calling Maru #1 has aged like a milk even though it was already a controversial pick back when this thread was created In hindsight the SC2 scene has aged like milk since 2016. I mean, no one is forcing anyone to watch and comment on a game that they dislike. You wrote, that you are still passionate, but passion sounds different to me I'm also very passionate about Manchester United. That passion doesn't blind me to the fact that we're no longer doing as well as we did in the 1990s and 2000s. I actually think that the skill ceiling has been lowered by the neutering of strategic diversity, and that factors heavily into how much I enjoy Legacy of the Void. It's only my opinion, but I believe the game got worse with each successive expansion, because Blizzard chose to focus too heavily on fast expansions and worker harassment. Show nested quote +On September 06 2025 16:08 PremoBeats wrote:
how post-military players triumphed, That going into the military isn't akin to retirement is emblematic of the scene being considerably weaker/shallower than it was in Wings of Liberty and Heart of the Swarm. This isn't something to be celebrated. You can't really build a legacy in a weaker/shallower scene. Show nested quote +On September 06 2025 16:08 PremoBeats wrote:
the engagement from all the content creators... We've always had plenty of engagement from content creators and that's amazing. We no longer have consistent engagement from major eSports organisations and that's concerning.
1) The starcraft 2 scene has aged incredibly. We thought the world was ending in 2016, but we're able to watch GSL nearly a decade later. You can talk shit about how GSL is a shadow of its former self from home, but the players still work their asses off and the fans have stuck around. It's super common to see people still cheering for players who once played for their favorite Proleague team.
2) Your club is a dumpster fire.
3) As the guy who wrote that article, I still prefer to watch heart of the swarm, but I'm not going to ignore the fact that lotv has changed a lot over the past eight years and the players have had to adapt and master all kinds of skills that heart of the swarm never presented.
4) Look, I'll gladly tell you that your favorite player is terrible and that they should pack it up because there's only so much money left in SC2 and you need to transition to a actual career despite the fact that you might not even have a high school degree and you're not trained in any craft or trade and you're basically going to work at gs25 if you don't get too it immediately etc etc........
It's obvious that plying ones trade in a scene that has is significantly shrunk is a tragic expression of life, love and the pressures of society, but it's also a glorious example of living ones dream in the face of whatever negative consequences they will eventually suffer in the future.
5) Of course you can. Winning events after having gone through military is a great thing not a bad one. herO's post military Code S wins are a big aid to finishing in the top 15 all time, just as Classic's recent performances have propelled him into a similar range.
On September 09 2025 23:46 Balnazza wrote:
So in short, SC2 is at this weird place were the top-dogs are still too skilled at the game to be easily replaced, while the scene itself is too small to support new players. And without EWC, there is really no argument to even become a pro in SC2 anymore.
Welcome to Brood War!
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On September 09 2025 16:54 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +My opinion about the military differs quite a bit. If the scene was so much weaker, why don't we have young players like the 17/18-year-olds from WoL/HotS grabbing world cups and GSLs? It would be easy money, no?
My take is, that the needed qualities - especially entrance hurdles - changed over the course of the game (alongside financing and establishment of players, lesser patches, less impactful changes, fewer players, the emergence of one insanely good beast, etc.). SC2 became more stable and back in 2016 when the game was only 6 years old, players simply weren't old enough to go to military and return. And some didn't have it in them, to grind their way back, while others did.
It's actually the other way around. The fact we don't get newcomers winning indicates stagnation/lower level of competitiveness. In all sports/esports we see this pattern. When we don't see it it's a sign not enough new players play it. This means the old guard continues to be the best. If Sc2 was still as popular as it was in the earlier days, majority of the current old top 30 players would have been replaced by now.
I think Balnazza summed it up quite well.
On September 09 2025 23:50 ejozl wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2025 16:03 PremoBeats wrote:On September 08 2025 19:46 MJG wrote:On September 06 2025 16:08 PremoBeats wrote:On August 15 2025 22:52 MJG wrote:On August 15 2025 22:30 TropicalHaze wrote:The discussion here has gone to a weird direction of "was Serral #1 player for every single second, minute and hour counting from 2018 to now". The main point being IMO that we can easily agree that for the most part he was and still is and taking a look at the thread we are currently on - in hindsight calling Maru #1 has aged like a milk even though it was already a controversial pick back when this thread was created In hindsight the SC2 scene has aged like milk since 2016. I mean, no one is forcing anyone to watch and comment on a game that they dislike. You wrote, that you are still passionate, but passion sounds different to me I'm also very passionate about Manchester United. That passion doesn't blind me to the fact that we're no longer doing as well as we did in the 1990s and 2000s. On September 06 2025 16:08 PremoBeats wrote:
Skill ceilings, I actually think that the skill ceiling has been lowered by the neutering of strategic diversity, and that factors heavily into how much I enjoy Legacy of the Void. It's only my opinion, but I believe the game got worse with each successive expansion, because Blizzard chose to focus too heavily on fast expansions and worker harassment. On September 06 2025 16:08 PremoBeats wrote:
how post-military players triumphed, That going into the military isn't akin to retirement is emblematic of the scene being considerably weaker/shallower than it was in Wings of Liberty and Heart of the Swarm. This isn't something to be celebrated. On September 06 2025 16:08 PremoBeats wrote:
new legacies being built, You can't really build a legacy in a weaker/shallower scene. On September 06 2025 16:08 PremoBeats wrote:
the engagement from all the content creators... We've always had plenty of engagement from content creators and that's amazing. We no longer have consistent engagement from major eSports organisations and that's concerning. All good... everyone is entitled to their opinion of the game. It simply looked weird to me... but perhaps I only saw a couple of negative posts in a row and misjudged. My opinion about the military differs quite a bit. If the scene was so much weaker, why don't we have young players like the 17/18-year-olds from WoL/HotS grabbing world cups and GSLs? It would be easy money, no? My take is, that the needed qualities - especially entrance hurdles - changed over the course of the game (alongside financing and establishment of players, lesser patches, less impactful changes, fewer players, the emergence of one insanely good beast, etc.). SC2 became more stable and back in 2016 when the game was only 6 years old, players simply weren't old enough to go to military and return. And some didn't have it in them, to grind their way back, while others did. 2025 most definitely marked another cut with yet another change to GSL, only 4 high stakes tournaments and the late announcement of SC2's participation at EWC and I'd agree that the future doesn't look too bright. But hey, we fancy a 15-year-old game, which simply isn't made for the short attention spanned modern audience... gotta keep our heads high. On September 08 2025 23:06 Harris1st wrote:
All but one of Maru's achievements come from 2018 and onward and in that timeframe Serral is just sooooooo much better in every metric... Maru won an OSL and SSL and was an insanely good Proleague player. But yeah... agree on Serral being much better in every metric. On September 09 2025 02:28 ejozl wrote:On September 07 2025 15:00 PremoBeats wrote:On September 07 2025 05:59 ejozl wrote:
I wouldn't say reigned as that is suggesting like a king, and he wasn't so since there was also innovation. But in 2015 he was top 2 without question and he was far more popular. Basically, every ladder terran was trying to be Maru and to their detriment. Then he reigned as king from 2018 and forward, and much more like a king than you can say about serral. Top 2 Terran or overall in 2015 in your opinion? Because sOs, INno, Rain, Life and even herO or Classic could all be placed above Maru's 2015, depending on which metrics/accolades one focuses on. What exactly do you mean by Maru reigning more like a king than Serral? A crown-less king, as he never won a World Championship? On a more serious note: I think Serral's post-2018 needs to be much stronger in the context of Miz' analysis (in my opinion it is in all relevant metrics... by far). How else could Serral have overtaken Maru in the update, given that Maru definitely "scored more points" up until 2018? No, I wasn't trying to be hyperbolic, I was addressing this by you: " Or if he explained how Maru reigned, if he wasn't even the most dominant Terran player for extended periods at peak competitiveness" Maru was top 2 terran in 2015. And maru reigned as the king of terran moreso than serral the king of zerg from 2018 and forward. Maru was "only" the 2nd best Terran in 2015, not the entirety of prime SC2 as a congregate. And on top only Terran, not overall. By the end of 2017, Mvp and INno - possibly other Terrans as well - were still ahead of Maru (I said several times that imo Maru overtook INno only in 2022, by which time Serral bypassed Maru). I also don't understand why one would look at this through a race-perspective if not only to benefit Maru's claim, as Serral was clearly not only the best Zerg but clearly the best player overall. He literally is/was the king of all races (if one wants to implement these kinds of words), not only one, in all relevant metrics from 2018-2022, or 2018 until now. And perhaps that's just me, but reigning to me is different from being the 2nd best player in one year of one race (in regards to Drahkn's post). Maru was only top 2, yet that far greater than what serral achieved in this time, all I remember from him was playing 1 single impressive bo3 vs. jaedong. I talked about race in this post because you said he wasn't even the clear number 1 terran in a period of top competition, yet serral has not been the top zerg for many of his years and there are 3 of the damn buggers in top 4 in terms of achievements counting this same time, meanwhile I don't even know who the next terran would be after maru. Maru = king of terran, serral = one other zerg in the great succession of zergs.
I never said that Serral was any good in that era. Another user claimed that Maru reigned in it when he was the 2nd best Terran and top 7th-10th overall at best, thus the notion is nonsense. So I don't get your point.
And what does it even matter that Serral only exploded after finishing school and turning full time pro, when he surpassed everyone - including Maru - after he did so?
Or why does it matter that some Zerg players could keep up with Serral some years? Some Terrans predated Maru. INno's 2019 also was arguably better than Maru's... TY won 2 GSLs in 2020. Cure won a GSL in 2021, Maru none. And while Terrans like Oli and Clem won the World Championship, Maru did not. I am not really sure what these fragmented views should prove to be honest, as overall Serral is by far the best statistical player from 2018 onwards, meaning for half the game's existence. No other player that played alongside him, after he turned his full attention towards the game is in any way, shape or form comparable and he is way ahead in any relevant metric to measure greatness.
No idea how you are able to ignore Mvp and INno in a "great succession of Terrans" or what these obscure lines of argumentation should prove. Maru has an insanely good resume but Serral's is simply better. No shame in that. These recent discussions do both of them absolutely no justice.
On September 10 2025 03:05 Mizenhauer wrote:
Welcome to Brood War!
lol
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EPT
