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Northern Ireland25609 Posts
On September 10 2025 02:36 Pentarp wrote:
Maru was the Terran Hope and the Fourth Race.
Some of you are clueless as hell.
Was he The Machine though?
I mean Inno did win the TL user-voted GOAT tournament way back when, it’s not outrageous to claim he shaded it in the Kespa era. Some considered Mvp the greater at that time too, although he didn’t progress as far in the bracket, given his World Champs and overseas international wins at the time.
Maru’s claim becomes awkward because it relies a lot on his longevity, but a longevity that overlaps with Serral, who outdid him in that particular span.
One doesn’t have to lack knowledge, or not consider Maru an incredible talent to notice some of the fudging people do to make his case.
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On September 10 2025 02:36 Pentarp wrote:
Maru was the Terran Hope and the Fourth Race.
Some of you are clueless as hell.
I know you have to always put a grain of salt with these nicknames, but I just noticed:
You can't really be both, can you? Either you are the Terran Hope or your gameplay is so out of this world you are considered an entirely new race (like, y'know, Moon).
Though I guess there are always contradictions like that. Serral apparently is simultaneously a goat and a White Walker?
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On September 09 2025 23:46 Balnazza wrote:
So in short, SC2 is at this weird place were the top-dogs are still too skilled at the game to be easily replaced, while the scene itself is too small to support new players. And without EWC, there is really no argument to even become a pro in SC2 anymore.
You've just described stagnation, which is what you were arguing against...
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On September 10 2025 06:52 PremoBeats wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2025 16:54 Hider wrote:My opinion about the military differs quite a bit. If the scene was so much weaker, why don't we have young players like the 17/18-year-olds from WoL/HotS grabbing world cups and GSLs? It would be easy money, no?
My take is, that the needed qualities - especially entrance hurdles - changed over the course of the game (alongside financing and establishment of players, lesser patches, less impactful changes, fewer players, the emergence of one insanely good beast, etc.). SC2 became more stable and back in 2016 when the game was only 6 years old, players simply weren't old enough to go to military and return. And some didn't have it in them, to grind their way back, while others did.
It's actually the other way around. The fact we don't get newcomers winning indicates stagnation/lower level of competitiveness. In all sports/esports we see this pattern. When we don't see it it's a sign not enough new players play it. This means the old guard continues to be the best. If Sc2 was still as popular as it was in the earlier days, majority of the current old top 30 players would have been replaced by now. I think Balnazza summed it up quite well. Show nested quote +On September 09 2025 23:50 ejozl wrote:On September 09 2025 16:03 PremoBeats wrote:On September 08 2025 19:46 MJG wrote:On September 06 2025 16:08 PremoBeats wrote:On August 15 2025 22:52 MJG wrote:On August 15 2025 22:30 TropicalHaze wrote:The discussion here has gone to a weird direction of "was Serral #1 player for every single second, minute and hour counting from 2018 to now". The main point being IMO that we can easily agree that for the most part he was and still is and taking a look at the thread we are currently on - in hindsight calling Maru #1 has aged like a milk even though it was already a controversial pick back when this thread was created  In hindsight the SC2 scene has aged like milk since 2016. I mean, no one is forcing anyone to watch and comment on a game that they dislike. You wrote, that you are still passionate, but passion sounds different to me  I'm also very passionate about Manchester United. That passion doesn't blind me to the fact that we're no longer doing as well as we did in the 1990s and 2000s. On September 06 2025 16:08 PremoBeats wrote:
Skill ceilings, I actually think that the skill ceiling has been lowered by the neutering of strategic diversity, and that factors heavily into how much I enjoy Legacy of the Void. It's only my opinion, but I believe the game got worse with each successive expansion, because Blizzard chose to focus too heavily on fast expansions and worker harassment. On September 06 2025 16:08 PremoBeats wrote:
how post-military players triumphed, That going into the military isn't akin to retirement is emblematic of the scene being considerably weaker/shallower than it was in Wings of Liberty and Heart of the Swarm. This isn't something to be celebrated. On September 06 2025 16:08 PremoBeats wrote:
new legacies being built, You can't really build a legacy in a weaker/shallower scene. On September 06 2025 16:08 PremoBeats wrote:
the engagement from all the content creators... We've always had plenty of engagement from content creators and that's amazing. We no longer have consistent engagement from major eSports organisations and that's concerning. All good... everyone is entitled to their opinion of the game. It simply looked weird to me... but perhaps I only saw a couple of negative posts in a row and misjudged. My opinion about the military differs quite a bit. If the scene was so much weaker, why don't we have young players like the 17/18-year-olds from WoL/HotS grabbing world cups and GSLs? It would be easy money, no? My take is, that the needed qualities - especially entrance hurdles - changed over the course of the game (alongside financing and establishment of players, lesser patches, less impactful changes, fewer players, the emergence of one insanely good beast, etc.). SC2 became more stable and back in 2016 when the game was only 6 years old, players simply weren't old enough to go to military and return. And some didn't have it in them, to grind their way back, while others did. 2025 most definitely marked another cut with yet another change to GSL, only 4 high stakes tournaments and the late announcement of SC2's participation at EWC and I'd agree that the future doesn't look too bright. But hey, we fancy a 15-year-old game, which simply isn't made for the short attention spanned modern audience... gotta keep our heads high. On September 08 2025 23:06 Harris1st wrote:
All but one of Maru's achievements come from 2018 and onward and in that timeframe Serral is just sooooooo much better in every metric... Maru won an OSL and SSL and was an insanely good Proleague player. But yeah... agree on Serral being much better in every metric. On September 09 2025 02:28 ejozl wrote:On September 07 2025 15:00 PremoBeats wrote:On September 07 2025 05:59 ejozl wrote:
I wouldn't say reigned as that is suggesting like a king, and he wasn't so since there was also innovation. But in 2015 he was top 2 without question and he was far more popular. Basically, every ladder terran was trying to be Maru and to their detriment. Then he reigned as king from 2018 and forward, and much more like a king than you can say about serral. Top 2 Terran or overall in 2015 in your opinion? Because sOs, INno, Rain, Life and even herO or Classic could all be placed above Maru's 2015, depending on which metrics/accolades one focuses on. What exactly do you mean by Maru reigning more like a king than Serral? A crown-less king, as he never won a World Championship? On a more serious note: I think Serral's post-2018 needs to be much stronger in the context of Miz' analysis (in my opinion it is in all relevant metrics... by far). How else could Serral have overtaken Maru in the update, given that Maru definitely "scored more points" up until 2018? No, I wasn't trying to be hyperbolic, I was addressing this by you: " Or if he explained how Maru reigned, if he wasn't even the most dominant Terran player for extended periods at peak competitiveness" Maru was top 2 terran in 2015. And maru reigned as the king of terran moreso than serral the king of zerg from 2018 and forward. Maru was "only" the 2nd best Terran in 2015, not the entirety of prime SC2 as a congregate. And on top only Terran, not overall. By the end of 2017, Mvp and INno - possibly other Terrans as well - were still ahead of Maru (I said several times that imo Maru overtook INno only in 2022, by which time Serral bypassed Maru). I also don't understand why one would look at this through a race-perspective if not only to benefit Maru's claim, as Serral was clearly not only the best Zerg but clearly the best player overall. He literally is/was the king of all races (if one wants to implement these kinds of words), not only one, in all relevant metrics from 2018-2022, or 2018 until now. And perhaps that's just me, but reigning to me is different from being the 2nd best player in one year of one race (in regards to Drahkn's post). Maru was only top 2, yet that far greater than what serral achieved in this time, all I remember from him was playing 1 single impressive bo3 vs. jaedong. I talked about race in this post because you said he wasn't even the clear number 1 terran in a period of top competition, yet serral has not been the top zerg for many of his years and there are 3 of the damn buggers in top 4 in terms of achievements counting this same time, meanwhile I don't even know who the next terran would be after maru. Maru = king of terran, serral = one other zerg in the great succession of zergs. I never said that Serral was any good in that era. Another user claimed that Maru reigned in it when he was the 2nd best Terran and top 7th-10th overall at best, thus the notion is nonsense. So I don't get your point. And what does it even matter that Serral only exploded after finishing school and turning full time pro, when he surpassed everyone - including Maru - after he did so? Or why does it matter that some Zerg players could keep up with Serral some years? Some Terrans predated Maru. INno's 2019 also was arguably better than Maru's... TY won 2 GSLs in 2020. Cure won a GSL in 2021, Maru none. And while Terrans like Oli and Clem won the World Championship, Maru did not. I am not really sure what these fragmented views should prove to be honest, as overall Serral is by far the best statistical player from 2018 onwards, meaning for half the game's existence. No other player that played alongside him, after he turned his full attention towards the game is in any way, shape or form comparable and he is way ahead in any relevant metric to measure greatness. No idea how you are able to ignore Mvp and INno in a "great succession of Terrans" or what these obscure lines of argumentation should prove. Maru has an insanely good resume but Serral's is simply better. No shame in that. These recent discussions do both of them absolutely no justice. lol
My point is that maru even from 2018 and forward is the bigger outlier, and this was AFTER he was named the 4th race in hots.
Back then domination in the same way wasn't possible, even mvp who was crowned by many the goat wasn't the favourite for most of his tournament wins, so implying it isn't impressive to be top 2 terran in 2015 is dumb.
Statistics might be impressive, but I guess the last ever samurai probably also had a pretty good record in terms of dueling..
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On September 10 2025 08:01 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2025 02:36 Pentarp wrote:
Maru was the Terran Hope and the Fourth Race.
Some of you are clueless as hell. Was he The Machine though? I mean Inno did win the TL user-voted GOAT tournament way back when, it’s not outrageous to claim he shaded it in the Kespa era. Some considered Mvp the greater at that time too, although he didn’t progress as far in the bracket, given his World Champs and overseas international wins at the time. Maru’s claim becomes awkward because it relies a lot on his longevity, but a longevity that overlaps with Serral, who outdid him in that particular span. One doesn’t have to lack knowledge, or not consider Maru an incredible talent to notice some of the fudging people do to make his case.
That's exactly the point... Maru was never the best of any era. He was always surpassed by others. It needs to be highlighted that he is the statistically 2nd best player of all time, but until 2018 many players are above his claim and post-2018 Serral rose and took over.
And I hate to point this out over and over as it doesn't do Maru's achievements justice, but being the 7th or 8th up until the 2nd best doesn't make you the Greatest in my opinion.
On September 10 2025 16:49 ejozl wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2025 06:52 PremoBeats wrote:On September 09 2025 16:54 Hider wrote:My opinion about the military differs quite a bit. If the scene was so much weaker, why don't we have young players like the 17/18-year-olds from WoL/HotS grabbing world cups and GSLs? It would be easy money, no?
My take is, that the needed qualities - especially entrance hurdles - changed over the course of the game (alongside financing and establishment of players, lesser patches, less impactful changes, fewer players, the emergence of one insanely good beast, etc.). SC2 became more stable and back in 2016 when the game was only 6 years old, players simply weren't old enough to go to military and return. And some didn't have it in them, to grind their way back, while others did.
It's actually the other way around. The fact we don't get newcomers winning indicates stagnation/lower level of competitiveness. In all sports/esports we see this pattern. When we don't see it it's a sign not enough new players play it. This means the old guard continues to be the best. If Sc2 was still as popular as it was in the earlier days, majority of the current old top 30 players would have been replaced by now. I think Balnazza summed it up quite well. On September 09 2025 23:50 ejozl wrote:On September 09 2025 16:03 PremoBeats wrote:On September 08 2025 19:46 MJG wrote:On September 06 2025 16:08 PremoBeats wrote:On August 15 2025 22:52 MJG wrote:On August 15 2025 22:30 TropicalHaze wrote:The discussion here has gone to a weird direction of "was Serral #1 player for every single second, minute and hour counting from 2018 to now". The main point being IMO that we can easily agree that for the most part he was and still is and taking a look at the thread we are currently on - in hindsight calling Maru #1 has aged like a milk even though it was already a controversial pick back when this thread was created In hindsight the SC2 scene has aged like milk since 2016. I mean, no one is forcing anyone to watch and comment on a game that they dislike. You wrote, that you are still passionate, but passion sounds different to me I'm also very passionate about Manchester United. That passion doesn't blind me to the fact that we're no longer doing as well as we did in the 1990s and 2000s. On September 06 2025 16:08 PremoBeats wrote:
Skill ceilings, I actually think that the skill ceiling has been lowered by the neutering of strategic diversity, and that factors heavily into how much I enjoy Legacy of the Void. It's only my opinion, but I believe the game got worse with each successive expansion, because Blizzard chose to focus too heavily on fast expansions and worker harassment. On September 06 2025 16:08 PremoBeats wrote:
how post-military players triumphed, That going into the military isn't akin to retirement is emblematic of the scene being considerably weaker/shallower than it was in Wings of Liberty and Heart of the Swarm. This isn't something to be celebrated. On September 06 2025 16:08 PremoBeats wrote:
new legacies being built, You can't really build a legacy in a weaker/shallower scene. On September 06 2025 16:08 PremoBeats wrote:
the engagement from all the content creators... We've always had plenty of engagement from content creators and that's amazing. We no longer have consistent engagement from major eSports organisations and that's concerning. All good... everyone is entitled to their opinion of the game. It simply looked weird to me... but perhaps I only saw a couple of negative posts in a row and misjudged. My opinion about the military differs quite a bit. If the scene was so much weaker, why don't we have young players like the 17/18-year-olds from WoL/HotS grabbing world cups and GSLs? It would be easy money, no? My take is, that the needed qualities - especially entrance hurdles - changed over the course of the game (alongside financing and establishment of players, lesser patches, less impactful changes, fewer players, the emergence of one insanely good beast, etc.). SC2 became more stable and back in 2016 when the game was only 6 years old, players simply weren't old enough to go to military and return. And some didn't have it in them, to grind their way back, while others did. 2025 most definitely marked another cut with yet another change to GSL, only 4 high stakes tournaments and the late announcement of SC2's participation at EWC and I'd agree that the future doesn't look too bright. But hey, we fancy a 15-year-old game, which simply isn't made for the short attention spanned modern audience... gotta keep our heads high. On September 08 2025 23:06 Harris1st wrote:
All but one of Maru's achievements come from 2018 and onward and in that timeframe Serral is just sooooooo much better in every metric... Maru won an OSL and SSL and was an insanely good Proleague player. But yeah... agree on Serral being much better in every metric. On September 09 2025 02:28 ejozl wrote:On September 07 2025 15:00 PremoBeats wrote:On September 07 2025 05:59 ejozl wrote:
I wouldn't say reigned as that is suggesting like a king, and he wasn't so since there was also innovation. But in 2015 he was top 2 without question and he was far more popular. Basically, every ladder terran was trying to be Maru and to their detriment. Then he reigned as king from 2018 and forward, and much more like a king than you can say about serral. Top 2 Terran or overall in 2015 in your opinion? Because sOs, INno, Rain, Life and even herO or Classic could all be placed above Maru's 2015, depending on which metrics/accolades one focuses on. What exactly do you mean by Maru reigning more like a king than Serral? A crown-less king, as he never won a World Championship? On a more serious note: I think Serral's post-2018 needs to be much stronger in the context of Miz' analysis (in my opinion it is in all relevant metrics... by far). How else could Serral have overtaken Maru in the update, given that Maru definitely "scored more points" up until 2018? No, I wasn't trying to be hyperbolic, I was addressing this by you: " Or if he explained how Maru reigned, if he wasn't even the most dominant Terran player for extended periods at peak competitiveness" Maru was top 2 terran in 2015. And maru reigned as the king of terran moreso than serral the king of zerg from 2018 and forward. Maru was "only" the 2nd best Terran in 2015, not the entirety of prime SC2 as a congregate. And on top only Terran, not overall. By the end of 2017, Mvp and INno - possibly other Terrans as well - were still ahead of Maru (I said several times that imo Maru overtook INno only in 2022, by which time Serral bypassed Maru). I also don't understand why one would look at this through a race-perspective if not only to benefit Maru's claim, as Serral was clearly not only the best Zerg but clearly the best player overall. He literally is/was the king of all races (if one wants to implement these kinds of words), not only one, in all relevant metrics from 2018-2022, or 2018 until now. And perhaps that's just me, but reigning to me is different from being the 2nd best player in one year of one race (in regards to Drahkn's post). Maru was only top 2, yet that far greater than what serral achieved in this time, all I remember from him was playing 1 single impressive bo3 vs. jaedong. I talked about race in this post because you said he wasn't even the clear number 1 terran in a period of top competition, yet serral has not been the top zerg for many of his years and there are 3 of the damn buggers in top 4 in terms of achievements counting this same time, meanwhile I don't even know who the next terran would be after maru. Maru = king of terran, serral = one other zerg in the great succession of zergs. I never said that Serral was any good in that era. Another user claimed that Maru reigned in it when he was the 2nd best Terran and top 7th-10th overall at best, thus the notion is nonsense. So I don't get your point. And what does it even matter that Serral only exploded after finishing school and turning full time pro, when he surpassed everyone - including Maru - after he did so? Or why does it matter that some Zerg players could keep up with Serral some years? Some Terrans predated Maru. INno's 2019 also was arguably better than Maru's... TY won 2 GSLs in 2020. Cure won a GSL in 2021, Maru none. And while Terrans like Oli and Clem won the World Championship, Maru did not. I am not really sure what these fragmented views should prove to be honest, as overall Serral is by far the best statistical player from 2018 onwards, meaning for half the game's existence. No other player that played alongside him, after he turned his full attention towards the game is in any way, shape or form comparable and he is way ahead in any relevant metric to measure greatness. No idea how you are able to ignore Mvp and INno in a "great succession of Terrans" or what these obscure lines of argumentation should prove. Maru has an insanely good resume but Serral's is simply better. No shame in that. These recent discussions do both of them absolutely no justice. On September 10 2025 03:05 Mizenhauer wrote:
Welcome to Brood War!
lol My point is that maru even from 2018 and forward is the bigger outlier, and this was AFTER he was named the 4th race in hots. Back then domination in the same way wasn't possible, even mvp who was crowned by many the goat wasn't the favourite for most of his tournament wins, so implying it isn't impressive to be top 2 terran in 2015 is dumb. Statistics might be impressive, but I guess the last ever samurai probably also had a pretty good record in terms of dueling..
But he wasn't. Serral clearly is the bigger outlier statistically against every other player.
I don't see anyone coming close to him in average place, tournament participation win ratios, tournament wins, match win rates or Aligulac rating. Where do you think Maru is better than Serral?
I never said that it wasn't impressive being the 2nd best Terran. I simply corrected someone who said that Maru reigned in the most competitive era, when he was at best in the top7/8. Reigning means being the best or most important in a particular situation, which Maru was not back then.
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Maru was the second best over a longer period than Serral was the best. That is the argument?
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On September 10 2025 03:05 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2025 19:46 MJG wrote:On September 06 2025 16:08 PremoBeats wrote:On August 15 2025 22:52 MJG wrote:On August 15 2025 22:30 TropicalHaze wrote:The discussion here has gone to a weird direction of "was Serral #1 player for every single second, minute and hour counting from 2018 to now". The main point being IMO that we can easily agree that for the most part he was and still is and taking a look at the thread we are currently on - in hindsight calling Maru #1 has aged like a milk even though it was already a controversial pick back when this thread was created In hindsight the SC2 scene has aged like milk since 2016. I mean, no one is forcing anyone to watch and comment on a game that they dislike. You wrote, that you are still passionate, but passion sounds different to me I'm also very passionate about Manchester United. That passion doesn't blind me to the fact that we're no longer doing as well as we did in the 1990s and 2000s. On September 06 2025 16:08 PremoBeats wrote:
Skill ceilings, I actually think that the skill ceiling has been lowered by the neutering of strategic diversity, and that factors heavily into how much I enjoy Legacy of the Void. It's only my opinion, but I believe the game got worse with each successive expansion, because Blizzard chose to focus too heavily on fast expansions and worker harassment. On September 06 2025 16:08 PremoBeats wrote:
how post-military players triumphed, That going into the military isn't akin to retirement is emblematic of the scene being considerably weaker/shallower than it was in Wings of Liberty and Heart of the Swarm. This isn't something to be celebrated. On September 06 2025 16:08 PremoBeats wrote:
new legacies being built, You can't really build a legacy in a weaker/shallower scene. On September 06 2025 16:08 PremoBeats wrote:
the engagement from all the content creators... We've always had plenty of engagement from content creators and that's amazing. We no longer have consistent engagement from major eSports organisations and that's concerning. 1) The starcraft 2 scene has aged incredibly. We thought the world was ending in 2016, but we're able to watch GSL nearly a decade later. You can talk shit about how GSL is a shadow of its former self from home, but the players still work their asses off and the fans have stuck around. It's super common to see people still cheering for players who once played for their favorite Proleague team. 2) Your club is a dumpster fire. 3) As the guy who wrote that article, I still prefer to watch heart of the swarm, but I'm not going to ignore the fact that lotv has changed a lot over the past eight years and the players have had to adapt and master all kinds of skills that heart of the swarm never presented. 4) Look, I'll gladly tell you that your favorite player is terrible and that they should pack it up because there's only so much money left in SC2 and you need to transition to a actual career despite the fact that you might not even have a high school degree and you're not trained in any craft or trade and you're basically going to work at gs25 if you don't get too it immediately etc etc........ It's obvious that plying ones trade in a scene that has is significantly shrunk is a tragic expression of life, love and the pressures of society, but it's also a glorious example of living ones dream in the face of whatever negative consequences they will eventually suffer in the future. 5) Of course you can. Winning events after having gone through military is a great thing not a bad one. herO's post military Code S wins are a big aid to finishing in the top 15 all time, just as Classic's recent performances have propelled him into a similar range.
1) I guess that's all about perspective. I'm a dour Mancunian pessimist. Go figure.
2) I know.
3) I just wanted to be open about my preference for Wings of Liberty > Heart of the Swarm >>> Legacy of the Void because it clearly colours my perception.
4) I'm not really sure what this is in response to.
5) I think you've misunderstood me. I wasn't saying that herO and Classic (and whoever else) shouldn't be celebrated for winning tournaments after completing their military service. They can only beat whoever is in front of them. I was saying that "the scene being considerably weaker/shallower than it was in Wings of Liberty and Heart of the Swarm" shouldn't be celebrated.
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On September 10 2025 18:36 Harris1st wrote:
Maru was the second best over a longer period than Serral was the best. That is the argument?
Technically not even that, as Maru was the 2nd best only post-2018. Before that he was 7th best at max, as there are many players with better individual results.
I at least don't see an extended timeframe where Maru could have been counted as the 2nd best player before that, including post KeSPA.
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On September 10 2025 15:25 MJG wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2025 23:46 Balnazza wrote:
So in short, SC2 is at this weird place were the top-dogs are still too skilled at the game to be easily replaced, while the scene itself is too small to support new players. And without EWC, there is really no argument to even become a pro in SC2 anymore. You've just described stagnation, which is what you were arguing against...
Stagnation is not the same as decline, which is what you proclaim. Specifically, decline in skill-level
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On September 11 2025 05:21 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2025 15:25 MJG wrote:On September 09 2025 23:46 Balnazza wrote:
So in short, SC2 is at this weird place were the top-dogs are still too skilled at the game to be easily replaced, while the scene itself is too small to support new players. And without EWC, there is really no argument to even become a pro in SC2 anymore. You've just described stagnation, which is what you were arguing against... Stagnation is not the same as decline, which is what you proclaim. Specifically, decline in skill-level
You were replying to Hider, who specifically said "stagnation" in their post...
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On September 10 2025 17:42 PremoBeats wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2025 08:01 WombaT wrote:On September 10 2025 02:36 Pentarp wrote:
Maru was the Terran Hope and the Fourth Race.
Some of you are clueless as hell. Was he The Machine though? I mean Inno did win the TL user-voted GOAT tournament way back when, it’s not outrageous to claim he shaded it in the Kespa era. Some considered Mvp the greater at that time too, although he didn’t progress as far in the bracket, given his World Champs and overseas international wins at the time. Maru’s claim becomes awkward because it relies a lot on his longevity, but a longevity that overlaps with Serral, who outdid him in that particular span. One doesn’t have to lack knowledge, or not consider Maru an incredible talent to notice some of the fudging people do to make his case. That's exactly the point... Maru was never the best of any era. He was always surpassed by others. It needs to be highlighted that he is the statistically 2nd best player of all time, but until 2018 many players are above his claim and post-2018 Serral rose and took over. And I hate to point this out over and over as it doesn't do Maru's achievements justice, but being the 7th or 8th up until the 2nd best doesn't make you the Greatest in my opinion. Show nested quote +On September 10 2025 16:49 ejozl wrote:On September 10 2025 06:52 PremoBeats wrote:On September 09 2025 16:54 Hider wrote:My opinion about the military differs quite a bit. If the scene was so much weaker, why don't we have young players like the 17/18-year-olds from WoL/HotS grabbing world cups and GSLs? It would be easy money, no?
My take is, that the needed qualities - especially entrance hurdles - changed over the course of the game (alongside financing and establishment of players, lesser patches, less impactful changes, fewer players, the emergence of one insanely good beast, etc.). SC2 became more stable and back in 2016 when the game was only 6 years old, players simply weren't old enough to go to military and return. And some didn't have it in them, to grind their way back, while others did.
It's actually the other way around. The fact we don't get newcomers winning indicates stagnation/lower level of competitiveness. In all sports/esports we see this pattern. When we don't see it it's a sign not enough new players play it. This means the old guard continues to be the best. If Sc2 was still as popular as it was in the earlier days, majority of the current old top 30 players would have been replaced by now. I think Balnazza summed it up quite well. On September 09 2025 23:50 ejozl wrote:On September 09 2025 16:03 PremoBeats wrote:On September 08 2025 19:46 MJG wrote:On September 06 2025 16:08 PremoBeats wrote:On August 15 2025 22:52 MJG wrote:On August 15 2025 22:30 TropicalHaze wrote:The discussion here has gone to a weird direction of "was Serral #1 player for every single second, minute and hour counting from 2018 to now". The main point being IMO that we can easily agree that for the most part he was and still is and taking a look at the thread we are currently on - in hindsight calling Maru #1 has aged like a milk even though it was already a controversial pick back when this thread was created In hindsight the SC2 scene has aged like milk since 2016. I mean, no one is forcing anyone to watch and comment on a game that they dislike. You wrote, that you are still passionate, but passion sounds different to me I'm also very passionate about Manchester United. That passion doesn't blind me to the fact that we're no longer doing as well as we did in the 1990s and 2000s. On September 06 2025 16:08 PremoBeats wrote:
Skill ceilings, I actually think that the skill ceiling has been lowered by the neutering of strategic diversity, and that factors heavily into how much I enjoy Legacy of the Void. It's only my opinion, but I believe the game got worse with each successive expansion, because Blizzard chose to focus too heavily on fast expansions and worker harassment. On September 06 2025 16:08 PremoBeats wrote:
how post-military players triumphed, That going into the military isn't akin to retirement is emblematic of the scene being considerably weaker/shallower than it was in Wings of Liberty and Heart of the Swarm. This isn't something to be celebrated. On September 06 2025 16:08 PremoBeats wrote:
new legacies being built, You can't really build a legacy in a weaker/shallower scene. On September 06 2025 16:08 PremoBeats wrote:
the engagement from all the content creators... We've always had plenty of engagement from content creators and that's amazing. We no longer have consistent engagement from major eSports organisations and that's concerning. All good... everyone is entitled to their opinion of the game. It simply looked weird to me... but perhaps I only saw a couple of negative posts in a row and misjudged. My opinion about the military differs quite a bit. If the scene was so much weaker, why don't we have young players like the 17/18-year-olds from WoL/HotS grabbing world cups and GSLs? It would be easy money, no? My take is, that the needed qualities - especially entrance hurdles - changed over the course of the game (alongside financing and establishment of players, lesser patches, less impactful changes, fewer players, the emergence of one insanely good beast, etc.). SC2 became more stable and back in 2016 when the game was only 6 years old, players simply weren't old enough to go to military and return. And some didn't have it in them, to grind their way back, while others did. 2025 most definitely marked another cut with yet another change to GSL, only 4 high stakes tournaments and the late announcement of SC2's participation at EWC and I'd agree that the future doesn't look too bright. But hey, we fancy a 15-year-old game, which simply isn't made for the short attention spanned modern audience... gotta keep our heads high. On September 08 2025 23:06 Harris1st wrote:
All but one of Maru's achievements come from 2018 and onward and in that timeframe Serral is just sooooooo much better in every metric... Maru won an OSL and SSL and was an insanely good Proleague player. But yeah... agree on Serral being much better in every metric. On September 09 2025 02:28 ejozl wrote:On September 07 2025 15:00 PremoBeats wrote:On September 07 2025 05:59 ejozl wrote:
I wouldn't say reigned as that is suggesting like a king, and he wasn't so since there was also innovation. But in 2015 he was top 2 without question and he was far more popular. Basically, every ladder terran was trying to be Maru and to their detriment. Then he reigned as king from 2018 and forward, and much more like a king than you can say about serral. Top 2 Terran or overall in 2015 in your opinion? Because sOs, INno, Rain, Life and even herO or Classic could all be placed above Maru's 2015, depending on which metrics/accolades one focuses on. What exactly do you mean by Maru reigning more like a king than Serral? A crown-less king, as he never won a World Championship? On a more serious note: I think Serral's post-2018 needs to be much stronger in the context of Miz' analysis (in my opinion it is in all relevant metrics... by far). How else could Serral have overtaken Maru in the update, given that Maru definitely "scored more points" up until 2018? No, I wasn't trying to be hyperbolic, I was addressing this by you: " Or if he explained how Maru reigned, if he wasn't even the most dominant Terran player for extended periods at peak competitiveness" Maru was top 2 terran in 2015. And maru reigned as the king of terran moreso than serral the king of zerg from 2018 and forward. Maru was "only" the 2nd best Terran in 2015, not the entirety of prime SC2 as a congregate. And on top only Terran, not overall. By the end of 2017, Mvp and INno - possibly other Terrans as well - were still ahead of Maru (I said several times that imo Maru overtook INno only in 2022, by which time Serral bypassed Maru). I also don't understand why one would look at this through a race-perspective if not only to benefit Maru's claim, as Serral was clearly not only the best Zerg but clearly the best player overall. He literally is/was the king of all races (if one wants to implement these kinds of words), not only one, in all relevant metrics from 2018-2022, or 2018 until now. And perhaps that's just me, but reigning to me is different from being the 2nd best player in one year of one race (in regards to Drahkn's post). Maru was only top 2, yet that far greater than what serral achieved in this time, all I remember from him was playing 1 single impressive bo3 vs. jaedong. I talked about race in this post because you said he wasn't even the clear number 1 terran in a period of top competition, yet serral has not been the top zerg for many of his years and there are 3 of the damn buggers in top 4 in terms of achievements counting this same time, meanwhile I don't even know who the next terran would be after maru. Maru = king of terran, serral = one other zerg in the great succession of zergs. I never said that Serral was any good in that era. Another user claimed that Maru reigned in it when he was the 2nd best Terran and top 7th-10th overall at best, thus the notion is nonsense. So I don't get your point. And what does it even matter that Serral only exploded after finishing school and turning full time pro, when he surpassed everyone - including Maru - after he did so? Or why does it matter that some Zerg players could keep up with Serral some years? Some Terrans predated Maru. INno's 2019 also was arguably better than Maru's... TY won 2 GSLs in 2020. Cure won a GSL in 2021, Maru none. And while Terrans like Oli and Clem won the World Championship, Maru did not. I am not really sure what these fragmented views should prove to be honest, as overall Serral is by far the best statistical player from 2018 onwards, meaning for half the game's existence. No other player that played alongside him, after he turned his full attention towards the game is in any way, shape or form comparable and he is way ahead in any relevant metric to measure greatness. No idea how you are able to ignore Mvp and INno in a "great succession of Terrans" or what these obscure lines of argumentation should prove. Maru has an insanely good resume but Serral's is simply better. No shame in that. These recent discussions do both of them absolutely no justice. On September 10 2025 03:05 Mizenhauer wrote:
Welcome to Brood War!
lol My point is that maru even from 2018 and forward is the bigger outlier, and this was AFTER he was named the 4th race in hots. Back then domination in the same way wasn't possible, even mvp who was crowned by many the goat wasn't the favourite for most of his tournament wins, so implying it isn't impressive to be top 2 terran in 2015 is dumb. Statistics might be impressive, but I guess the last ever samurai probably also had a pretty good record in terms of dueling.. But he wasn't. Serral clearly is the bigger outlier statistically against every other player. I don't see anyone coming close to him in average place, tournament participation win ratios, tournament wins, match win rates or Aligulac rating. Where do you think Maru is better than Serral? I never said that it wasn't impressive being the 2nd best Terran. I simply corrected someone who said that Maru reigned in the most competitive era, when he was at best in the top7/8. Reigning means being the best or most important in a particular situation, which Maru was not back then.
Okay, so serral is the bigger outlier in terms of win rate, and maru is the bigger outlier in terms of carrying its race burden.
I think he's got a case for achievements which is the only thing that matters in the debate for me, and when you count in era it becomes strong as hell, and when you count in race it becomes overwhelming.
I think the reigned word was probably just a bad wod choice, but all these words get synonymous in e-sport, he reigned, he terrorized, he dominated and etc.
I would say a player like MC reigned, even though he might not've been the statistical best, in the way that he dominated the show and flew everywhere all the time.
As for the 2nd best that's a dumb argument, you would all agree maru > dear, even though you would say maru wasn't the best at a time, when dear was for a very brief moment.
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Russian Federation166 Posts
On March 16 2024 08:18 Antithesis wrote:
Serral is the #1 Greatest of all Time.
Maru is doubtlessly the #2 behind him, though.
U nuts?
Serral never played gsl
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On September 11 2025 16:59 MJG wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2025 05:21 Balnazza wrote:On September 10 2025 15:25 MJG wrote:On September 09 2025 23:46 Balnazza wrote:
So in short, SC2 is at this weird place were the top-dogs are still too skilled at the game to be easily replaced, while the scene itself is too small to support new players. And without EWC, there is really no argument to even become a pro in SC2 anymore. You've just described stagnation, which is what you were arguing against... Stagnation is not the same as decline, which is what you proclaim. Specifically, decline in skill-level You were replying to Hider, who specifically said "stagnation" in their post...
Huh, yeah, apparently I mixed a few posts together there. Then I guess I just kind of proved his point, which is fine, considering it still holds up for the GOAT-debate, proving (or atleast argueing) that the things that happen in todays game-state still matter.
On September 11 2025 23:48 EEk1TwEEk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2024 08:18 Antithesis wrote:
Serral is the #1 Greatest of all Time.
Maru is doubtlessly the #2 behind him, though. U nuts? Serral never played gsl
Damn, over 1600 comments in this thread alone about the debate and we somehow all missed that?!
I think he's got a case for achievements which is the only thing that matters in the debate for me, and when you count in era it becomes strong as hell, and when you count in race it becomes overwhelming.
If "achievements" are all that matters to you, than Serral outclasses Maru by a big slide. The biggest achievement in the game is to become World Champion and Maru failed to do that even once.
If you count in era, than...well, Maru was far from the best pre-2018, so that doesn't really matter either.
And can we stop with the overhyped "Terran Hope" like Terran hasn't won anything for years and years and poor Maru had to carry it all on his own? In all of his GSL titles except for two Terran was atleast on par in terms of Quarterfinals-representation, in some of them Terran was even heaily overrepresented.
There was this very brief moment in time when Maru did better than any other Terran but if you really think that has been his whole career...yeah, no.
To put Maru on this "race-carrying"-pedestal when someone like herO had to literally drag the corpse of his race for two years...
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On September 11 2025 21:53 ejozl wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2025 17:42 PremoBeats wrote:On September 10 2025 08:01 WombaT wrote:On September 10 2025 02:36 Pentarp wrote:
Maru was the Terran Hope and the Fourth Race.
Some of you are clueless as hell. Was he The Machine though? I mean Inno did win the TL user-voted GOAT tournament way back when, it’s not outrageous to claim he shaded it in the Kespa era. Some considered Mvp the greater at that time too, although he didn’t progress as far in the bracket, given his World Champs and overseas international wins at the time. Maru’s claim becomes awkward because it relies a lot on his longevity, but a longevity that overlaps with Serral, who outdid him in that particular span. One doesn’t have to lack knowledge, or not consider Maru an incredible talent to notice some of the fudging people do to make his case. That's exactly the point... Maru was never the best of any era. He was always surpassed by others. It needs to be highlighted that he is the statistically 2nd best player of all time, but until 2018 many players are above his claim and post-2018 Serral rose and took over. And I hate to point this out over and over as it doesn't do Maru's achievements justice, but being the 7th or 8th up until the 2nd best doesn't make you the Greatest in my opinion. On September 10 2025 16:49 ejozl wrote:On September 10 2025 06:52 PremoBeats wrote:On September 09 2025 16:54 Hider wrote:My opinion about the military differs quite a bit. If the scene was so much weaker, why don't we have young players like the 17/18-year-olds from WoL/HotS grabbing world cups and GSLs? It would be easy money, no?
My take is, that the needed qualities - especially entrance hurdles - changed over the course of the game (alongside financing and establishment of players, lesser patches, less impactful changes, fewer players, the emergence of one insanely good beast, etc.). SC2 became more stable and back in 2016 when the game was only 6 years old, players simply weren't old enough to go to military and return. And some didn't have it in them, to grind their way back, while others did.
It's actually the other way around. The fact we don't get newcomers winning indicates stagnation/lower level of competitiveness. In all sports/esports we see this pattern. When we don't see it it's a sign not enough new players play it. This means the old guard continues to be the best. If Sc2 was still as popular as it was in the earlier days, majority of the current old top 30 players would have been replaced by now. I think Balnazza summed it up quite well. On September 09 2025 23:50 ejozl wrote:On September 09 2025 16:03 PremoBeats wrote:On September 08 2025 19:46 MJG wrote:On September 06 2025 16:08 PremoBeats wrote:On August 15 2025 22:52 MJG wrote:On August 15 2025 22:30 TropicalHaze wrote:The discussion here has gone to a weird direction of "was Serral #1 player for every single second, minute and hour counting from 2018 to now". The main point being IMO that we can easily agree that for the most part he was and still is and taking a look at the thread we are currently on - in hindsight calling Maru #1 has aged like a milk even though it was already a controversial pick back when this thread was created In hindsight the SC2 scene has aged like milk since 2016. I mean, no one is forcing anyone to watch and comment on a game that they dislike. You wrote, that you are still passionate, but passion sounds different to me I'm also very passionate about Manchester United. That passion doesn't blind me to the fact that we're no longer doing as well as we did in the 1990s and 2000s. On September 06 2025 16:08 PremoBeats wrote:
Skill ceilings, I actually think that the skill ceiling has been lowered by the neutering of strategic diversity, and that factors heavily into how much I enjoy Legacy of the Void. It's only my opinion, but I believe the game got worse with each successive expansion, because Blizzard chose to focus too heavily on fast expansions and worker harassment. On September 06 2025 16:08 PremoBeats wrote:
how post-military players triumphed, That going into the military isn't akin to retirement is emblematic of the scene being considerably weaker/shallower than it was in Wings of Liberty and Heart of the Swarm. This isn't something to be celebrated. On September 06 2025 16:08 PremoBeats wrote:
new legacies being built, You can't really build a legacy in a weaker/shallower scene. On September 06 2025 16:08 PremoBeats wrote:
the engagement from all the content creators... We've always had plenty of engagement from content creators and that's amazing. We no longer have consistent engagement from major eSports organisations and that's concerning. All good... everyone is entitled to their opinion of the game. It simply looked weird to me... but perhaps I only saw a couple of negative posts in a row and misjudged. My opinion about the military differs quite a bit. If the scene was so much weaker, why don't we have young players like the 17/18-year-olds from WoL/HotS grabbing world cups and GSLs? It would be easy money, no? My take is, that the needed qualities - especially entrance hurdles - changed over the course of the game (alongside financing and establishment of players, lesser patches, less impactful changes, fewer players, the emergence of one insanely good beast, etc.). SC2 became more stable and back in 2016 when the game was only 6 years old, players simply weren't old enough to go to military and return. And some didn't have it in them, to grind their way back, while others did. 2025 most definitely marked another cut with yet another change to GSL, only 4 high stakes tournaments and the late announcement of SC2's participation at EWC and I'd agree that the future doesn't look too bright. But hey, we fancy a 15-year-old game, which simply isn't made for the short attention spanned modern audience... gotta keep our heads high. On September 08 2025 23:06 Harris1st wrote:
All but one of Maru's achievements come from 2018 and onward and in that timeframe Serral is just sooooooo much better in every metric... Maru won an OSL and SSL and was an insanely good Proleague player. But yeah... agree on Serral being much better in every metric. On September 09 2025 02:28 ejozl wrote:On September 07 2025 15:00 PremoBeats wrote:On September 07 2025 05:59 ejozl wrote:
I wouldn't say reigned as that is suggesting like a king, and he wasn't so since there was also innovation. But in 2015 he was top 2 without question and he was far more popular. Basically, every ladder terran was trying to be Maru and to their detriment. Then he reigned as king from 2018 and forward, and much more like a king than you can say about serral. Top 2 Terran or overall in 2015 in your opinion? Because sOs, INno, Rain, Life and even herO or Classic could all be placed above Maru's 2015, depending on which metrics/accolades one focuses on. What exactly do you mean by Maru reigning more like a king than Serral? A crown-less king, as he never won a World Championship? On a more serious note: I think Serral's post-2018 needs to be much stronger in the context of Miz' analysis (in my opinion it is in all relevant metrics... by far). How else could Serral have overtaken Maru in the update, given that Maru definitely "scored more points" up until 2018? No, I wasn't trying to be hyperbolic, I was addressing this by you: " Or if he explained how Maru reigned, if he wasn't even the most dominant Terran player for extended periods at peak competitiveness" Maru was top 2 terran in 2015. And maru reigned as the king of terran moreso than serral the king of zerg from 2018 and forward. Maru was "only" the 2nd best Terran in 2015, not the entirety of prime SC2 as a congregate. And on top only Terran, not overall. By the end of 2017, Mvp and INno - possibly other Terrans as well - were still ahead of Maru (I said several times that imo Maru overtook INno only in 2022, by which time Serral bypassed Maru). I also don't understand why one would look at this through a race-perspective if not only to benefit Maru's claim, as Serral was clearly not only the best Zerg but clearly the best player overall. He literally is/was the king of all races (if one wants to implement these kinds of words), not only one, in all relevant metrics from 2018-2022, or 2018 until now. And perhaps that's just me, but reigning to me is different from being the 2nd best player in one year of one race (in regards to Drahkn's post). Maru was only top 2, yet that far greater than what serral achieved in this time, all I remember from him was playing 1 single impressive bo3 vs. jaedong. I talked about race in this post because you said he wasn't even the clear number 1 terran in a period of top competition, yet serral has not been the top zerg for many of his years and there are 3 of the damn buggers in top 4 in terms of achievements counting this same time, meanwhile I don't even know who the next terran would be after maru. Maru = king of terran, serral = one other zerg in the great succession of zergs. I never said that Serral was any good in that era. Another user claimed that Maru reigned in it when he was the 2nd best Terran and top 7th-10th overall at best, thus the notion is nonsense. So I don't get your point. And what does it even matter that Serral only exploded after finishing school and turning full time pro, when he surpassed everyone - including Maru - after he did so? Or why does it matter that some Zerg players could keep up with Serral some years? Some Terrans predated Maru. INno's 2019 also was arguably better than Maru's... TY won 2 GSLs in 2020. Cure won a GSL in 2021, Maru none. And while Terrans like Oli and Clem won the World Championship, Maru did not. I am not really sure what these fragmented views should prove to be honest, as overall Serral is by far the best statistical player from 2018 onwards, meaning for half the game's existence. No other player that played alongside him, after he turned his full attention towards the game is in any way, shape or form comparable and he is way ahead in any relevant metric to measure greatness. No idea how you are able to ignore Mvp and INno in a "great succession of Terrans" or what these obscure lines of argumentation should prove. Maru has an insanely good resume but Serral's is simply better. No shame in that. These recent discussions do both of them absolutely no justice. On September 10 2025 03:05 Mizenhauer wrote:
Welcome to Brood War!
lol My point is that maru even from 2018 and forward is the bigger outlier, and this was AFTER he was named the 4th race in hots. Back then domination in the same way wasn't possible, even mvp who was crowned by many the goat wasn't the favourite for most of his tournament wins, so implying it isn't impressive to be top 2 terran in 2015 is dumb. Statistics might be impressive, but I guess the last ever samurai probably also had a pretty good record in terms of dueling.. But he wasn't. Serral clearly is the bigger outlier statistically against every other player. I don't see anyone coming close to him in average place, tournament participation win ratios, tournament wins, match win rates or Aligulac rating. Where do you think Maru is better than Serral? I never said that it wasn't impressive being the 2nd best Terran. I simply corrected someone who said that Maru reigned in the most competitive era, when he was at best in the top7/8. Reigning means being the best or most important in a particular situation, which Maru was not back then. Okay, so serral is the bigger outlier in terms of win rate, and maru is the bigger outlier in terms of carrying its race burden. I think he's got a case for achievements which is the only thing that matters in the debate for me, and when you count in era it becomes strong as hell, and when you count in race it becomes overwhelming. I think the reigned word was probably just a bad wod choice, but all these words get synonymous in e-sport, he reigned, he terrorized, he dominated and etc. I would say a player like MC reigned, even though he might not've been the statistical best, in the way that he dominated the show and flew everywhere all the time. As for the 2nd best that's a dumb argument, you would all agree maru > dear, even though you would say maru wasn't the best at a time, when dear was for a very brief moment.
Serral's and Maru's achievements only become comparable if you entirely disregard his region-locks. To make Maru be better than Serral with an era-justification, you'd have to pump up era as a metric so much that other players who won a lot more in the prime-era will overtake Maru, as most of his accomplishments are outside of the prime-era. That is shown when constant, non-changeable multipliers are tied to the results of these players.
And this "carrying-one's-race-burden" thing... How would you even measure it? How do you incorporate the fact that there were 3 Terran world champions since Maru won his first big tournament, while he was never able to do it? Or how TY won 2 GSLs in 2020 and Maru none?
Or how would you control for your race simply having one or two more good players, instead of race itself being an issue?
Would you analyze this whole-career-wise or on a yearly basis? Against single players who played in the same race?
I have a hunch that herO would overtake Maru in a setup you described, as he had much more wins in the prime-era and carried his race when no one really else held the candle.
But placing so many arbitrary restrictions on the discussion sounds more like a GOAT-order from wish imo.
PS: And funny, I imagined your GOAT-metric-to-go would be prize money
On September 11 2025 23:48 EEk1TwEEk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2024 08:18 Antithesis wrote:
Serral is the #1 Greatest of all Time.
Maru is doubtlessly the #2 behind him, though. U nuts? Serral never played gsl
I think you just solved SC2! Why did no one else ever think of that?
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On September 12 2025 15:28 PremoBeats wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2025 21:53 ejozl wrote:On September 10 2025 17:42 PremoBeats wrote:On September 10 2025 08:01 WombaT wrote:On September 10 2025 02:36 Pentarp wrote:
Maru was the Terran Hope and the Fourth Race.
Some of you are clueless as hell. Was he The Machine though? I mean Inno did win the TL user-voted GOAT tournament way back when, it’s not outrageous to claim he shaded it in the Kespa era. Some considered Mvp the greater at that time too, although he didn’t progress as far in the bracket, given his World Champs and overseas international wins at the time. Maru’s claim becomes awkward because it relies a lot on his longevity, but a longevity that overlaps with Serral, who outdid him in that particular span. One doesn’t have to lack knowledge, or not consider Maru an incredible talent to notice some of the fudging people do to make his case. That's exactly the point... Maru was never the best of any era. He was always surpassed by others. It needs to be highlighted that he is the statistically 2nd best player of all time, but until 2018 many players are above his claim and post-2018 Serral rose and took over. And I hate to point this out over and over as it doesn't do Maru's achievements justice, but being the 7th or 8th up until the 2nd best doesn't make you the Greatest in my opinion. On September 10 2025 16:49 ejozl wrote:On September 10 2025 06:52 PremoBeats wrote:On September 09 2025 16:54 Hider wrote:My opinion about the military differs quite a bit. If the scene was so much weaker, why don't we have young players like the 17/18-year-olds from WoL/HotS grabbing world cups and GSLs? It would be easy money, no?
My take is, that the needed qualities - especially entrance hurdles - changed over the course of the game (alongside financing and establishment of players, lesser patches, less impactful changes, fewer players, the emergence of one insanely good beast, etc.). SC2 became more stable and back in 2016 when the game was only 6 years old, players simply weren't old enough to go to military and return. And some didn't have it in them, to grind their way back, while others did.
It's actually the other way around. The fact we don't get newcomers winning indicates stagnation/lower level of competitiveness. In all sports/esports we see this pattern. When we don't see it it's a sign not enough new players play it. This means the old guard continues to be the best. If Sc2 was still as popular as it was in the earlier days, majority of the current old top 30 players would have been replaced by now. I think Balnazza summed it up quite well. On September 09 2025 23:50 ejozl wrote:On September 09 2025 16:03 PremoBeats wrote:On September 08 2025 19:46 MJG wrote:On September 06 2025 16:08 PremoBeats wrote:On August 15 2025 22:52 MJG wrote:
[quote]
In hindsight the SC2 scene has aged like milk since 2016. I mean, no one is forcing anyone to watch and comment on a game that they dislike. You wrote, that you are still passionate, but passion sounds different to me I'm also very passionate about Manchester United. That passion doesn't blind me to the fact that we're no longer doing as well as we did in the 1990s and 2000s. On September 06 2025 16:08 PremoBeats wrote:
Skill ceilings, I actually think that the skill ceiling has been lowered by the neutering of strategic diversity, and that factors heavily into how much I enjoy Legacy of the Void. It's only my opinion, but I believe the game got worse with each successive expansion, because Blizzard chose to focus too heavily on fast expansions and worker harassment. On September 06 2025 16:08 PremoBeats wrote:
how post-military players triumphed, That going into the military isn't akin to retirement is emblematic of the scene being considerably weaker/shallower than it was in Wings of Liberty and Heart of the Swarm. This isn't something to be celebrated. On September 06 2025 16:08 PremoBeats wrote:
new legacies being built, You can't really build a legacy in a weaker/shallower scene. On September 06 2025 16:08 PremoBeats wrote:
the engagement from all the content creators... We've always had plenty of engagement from content creators and that's amazing. We no longer have consistent engagement from major eSports organisations and that's concerning. All good... everyone is entitled to their opinion of the game. It simply looked weird to me... but perhaps I only saw a couple of negative posts in a row and misjudged. My opinion about the military differs quite a bit. If the scene was so much weaker, why don't we have young players like the 17/18-year-olds from WoL/HotS grabbing world cups and GSLs? It would be easy money, no? My take is, that the needed qualities - especially entrance hurdles - changed over the course of the game (alongside financing and establishment of players, lesser patches, less impactful changes, fewer players, the emergence of one insanely good beast, etc.). SC2 became more stable and back in 2016 when the game was only 6 years old, players simply weren't old enough to go to military and return. And some didn't have it in them, to grind their way back, while others did. 2025 most definitely marked another cut with yet another change to GSL, only 4 high stakes tournaments and the late announcement of SC2's participation at EWC and I'd agree that the future doesn't look too bright. But hey, we fancy a 15-year-old game, which simply isn't made for the short attention spanned modern audience... gotta keep our heads high. On September 08 2025 23:06 Harris1st wrote:
All but one of Maru's achievements come from 2018 and onward and in that timeframe Serral is just sooooooo much better in every metric... Maru won an OSL and SSL and was an insanely good Proleague player. But yeah... agree on Serral being much better in every metric. On September 09 2025 02:28 ejozl wrote:On September 07 2025 15:00 PremoBeats wrote:On September 07 2025 05:59 ejozl wrote:
I wouldn't say reigned as that is suggesting like a king, and he wasn't so since there was also innovation. But in 2015 he was top 2 without question and he was far more popular. Basically, every ladder terran was trying to be Maru and to their detriment. Then he reigned as king from 2018 and forward, and much more like a king than you can say about serral. Top 2 Terran or overall in 2015 in your opinion? Because sOs, INno, Rain, Life and even herO or Classic could all be placed above Maru's 2015, depending on which metrics/accolades one focuses on. What exactly do you mean by Maru reigning more like a king than Serral? A crown-less king, as he never won a World Championship? On a more serious note: I think Serral's post-2018 needs to be much stronger in the context of Miz' analysis (in my opinion it is in all relevant metrics... by far). How else could Serral have overtaken Maru in the update, given that Maru definitely "scored more points" up until 2018? No, I wasn't trying to be hyperbolic, I was addressing this by you: " Or if he explained how Maru reigned, if he wasn't even the most dominant Terran player for extended periods at peak competitiveness" Maru was top 2 terran in 2015. And maru reigned as the king of terran moreso than serral the king of zerg from 2018 and forward. Maru was "only" the 2nd best Terran in 2015, not the entirety of prime SC2 as a congregate. And on top only Terran, not overall. By the end of 2017, Mvp and INno - possibly other Terrans as well - were still ahead of Maru (I said several times that imo Maru overtook INno only in 2022, by which time Serral bypassed Maru). I also don't understand why one would look at this through a race-perspective if not only to benefit Maru's claim, as Serral was clearly not only the best Zerg but clearly the best player overall. He literally is/was the king of all races (if one wants to implement these kinds of words), not only one, in all relevant metrics from 2018-2022, or 2018 until now. And perhaps that's just me, but reigning to me is different from being the 2nd best player in one year of one race (in regards to Drahkn's post). Maru was only top 2, yet that far greater than what serral achieved in this time, all I remember from him was playing 1 single impressive bo3 vs. jaedong. I talked about race in this post because you said he wasn't even the clear number 1 terran in a period of top competition, yet serral has not been the top zerg for many of his years and there are 3 of the damn buggers in top 4 in terms of achievements counting this same time, meanwhile I don't even know who the next terran would be after maru. Maru = king of terran, serral = one other zerg in the great succession of zergs. I never said that Serral was any good in that era. Another user claimed that Maru reigned in it when he was the 2nd best Terran and top 7th-10th overall at best, thus the notion is nonsense. So I don't get your point. And what does it even matter that Serral only exploded after finishing school and turning full time pro, when he surpassed everyone - including Maru - after he did so? Or why does it matter that some Zerg players could keep up with Serral some years? Some Terrans predated Maru. INno's 2019 also was arguably better than Maru's... TY won 2 GSLs in 2020. Cure won a GSL in 2021, Maru none. And while Terrans like Oli and Clem won the World Championship, Maru did not. I am not really sure what these fragmented views should prove to be honest, as overall Serral is by far the best statistical player from 2018 onwards, meaning for half the game's existence. No other player that played alongside him, after he turned his full attention towards the game is in any way, shape or form comparable and he is way ahead in any relevant metric to measure greatness. No idea how you are able to ignore Mvp and INno in a "great succession of Terrans" or what these obscure lines of argumentation should prove. Maru has an insanely good resume but Serral's is simply better. No shame in that. These recent discussions do both of them absolutely no justice. On September 10 2025 03:05 Mizenhauer wrote:
Welcome to Brood War!
lol My point is that maru even from 2018 and forward is the bigger outlier, and this was AFTER he was named the 4th race in hots. Back then domination in the same way wasn't possible, even mvp who was crowned by many the goat wasn't the favourite for most of his tournament wins, so implying it isn't impressive to be top 2 terran in 2015 is dumb. Statistics might be impressive, but I guess the last ever samurai probably also had a pretty good record in terms of dueling.. But he wasn't. Serral clearly is the bigger outlier statistically against every other player. I don't see anyone coming close to him in average place, tournament participation win ratios, tournament wins, match win rates or Aligulac rating. Where do you think Maru is better than Serral? I never said that it wasn't impressive being the 2nd best Terran. I simply corrected someone who said that Maru reigned in the most competitive era, when he was at best in the top7/8. Reigning means being the best or most important in a particular situation, which Maru was not back then. Okay, so serral is the bigger outlier in terms of win rate, and maru is the bigger outlier in terms of carrying its race burden. I think he's got a case for achievements which is the only thing that matters in the debate for me, and when you count in era it becomes strong as hell, and when you count in race it becomes overwhelming. I think the reigned word was probably just a bad wod choice, but all these words get synonymous in e-sport, he reigned, he terrorized, he dominated and etc. I would say a player like MC reigned, even though he might not've been the statistical best, in the way that he dominated the show and flew everywhere all the time. As for the 2nd best that's a dumb argument, you would all agree maru > dear, even though you would say maru wasn't the best at a time, when dear was for a very brief moment. Serral's and Maru's achievements only become comparable if you entirely disregard his region-locks. To make Maru be better than Serral with an era-justification, you'd have to pump up era as a metric so much that other players who won a lot more in the prime-era will overtake Maru, as most of his accomplishments are outside of the prime-era. That is shown when constant, non-changeable multipliers are tied to the results of these players. And this "carrying-one's-race-burden" thing... How would you even measure it? How do you incorporate the fact that there were 3 Terran world champions since Maru won his first big tournament, while he was never able to do it? Or how TY won 2 GSLs in 2020 and Maru none? Or how would you control for your race simply having one or two more good players, instead of race itself being an issue? Would you analyze this whole-career-wise or on a yearly basis? Against single players who played in the same race? I have a hunch that herO would overtake Maru in a setup you described, as he had much more wins in the prime-era and carried his race when no one really else held the candle. But placing so many arbitrary restrictions on the discussion sounds more like a GOAT-order from wish imo. PS: And funny, I imagined your GOAT-metric-to-go would be prize money Show nested quote +On September 11 2025 23:48 EEk1TwEEk wrote:On March 16 2024 08:18 Antithesis wrote:
Serral is the #1 Greatest of all Time.
Maru is doubtlessly the #2 behind him, though. U nuts? Serral never played gsl I think you just solved SC2! Why did no one else ever think of that?
I have measured it hence why I know maru comes on top. I disregard region locks, his gsl vs. world and homestory cups by 3/4's because region lock doesn't feature koreans, and hsc (the ones he won) and gsl vs. the world are invitationals.
Other players who have won during the prime years don't have 4 gsls or anything comparable, and terran was objectively weakest during this time.
TY was a power house, but clearly not no/ 1, when maru is winning 4 gsls in a row.
Serral not performing during the prime years, that zerg might've been OP, and serral not winning gsl - are all comparable to maru not being able to win a world championship.
Oh.. but then.. he did.
+ Show Spoiler +
But forget it Jake, it's china town.
|
On September 12 2025 20:13 ejozl wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2025 15:28 PremoBeats wrote:On September 11 2025 21:53 ejozl wrote:On September 10 2025 17:42 PremoBeats wrote:On September 10 2025 08:01 WombaT wrote:On September 10 2025 02:36 Pentarp wrote:
Maru was the Terran Hope and the Fourth Race.
Some of you are clueless as hell. Was he The Machine though? I mean Inno did win the TL user-voted GOAT tournament way back when, it’s not outrageous to claim he shaded it in the Kespa era. Some considered Mvp the greater at that time too, although he didn’t progress as far in the bracket, given his World Champs and overseas international wins at the time. Maru’s claim becomes awkward because it relies a lot on his longevity, but a longevity that overlaps with Serral, who outdid him in that particular span. One doesn’t have to lack knowledge, or not consider Maru an incredible talent to notice some of the fudging people do to make his case. That's exactly the point... Maru was never the best of any era. He was always surpassed by others. It needs to be highlighted that he is the statistically 2nd best player of all time, but until 2018 many players are above his claim and post-2018 Serral rose and took over. And I hate to point this out over and over as it doesn't do Maru's achievements justice, but being the 7th or 8th up until the 2nd best doesn't make you the Greatest in my opinion. On September 10 2025 16:49 ejozl wrote:On September 10 2025 06:52 PremoBeats wrote:On September 09 2025 16:54 Hider wrote:My opinion about the military differs quite a bit. If the scene was so much weaker, why don't we have young players like the 17/18-year-olds from WoL/HotS grabbing world cups and GSLs? It would be easy money, no?
My take is, that the needed qualities - especially entrance hurdles - changed over the course of the game (alongside financing and establishment of players, lesser patches, less impactful changes, fewer players, the emergence of one insanely good beast, etc.). SC2 became more stable and back in 2016 when the game was only 6 years old, players simply weren't old enough to go to military and return. And some didn't have it in them, to grind their way back, while others did.
It's actually the other way around. The fact we don't get newcomers winning indicates stagnation/lower level of competitiveness. In all sports/esports we see this pattern. When we don't see it it's a sign not enough new players play it. This means the old guard continues to be the best. If Sc2 was still as popular as it was in the earlier days, majority of the current old top 30 players would have been replaced by now. I think Balnazza summed it up quite well. On September 09 2025 23:50 ejozl wrote:On September 09 2025 16:03 PremoBeats wrote:On September 08 2025 19:46 MJG wrote:On September 06 2025 16:08 PremoBeats wrote:[quote] I mean, no one is forcing anyone to watch and comment on a game that they dislike. You wrote, that you are still passionate, but passion sounds different to me I'm also very passionate about Manchester United. That passion doesn't blind me to the fact that we're no longer doing as well as we did in the 1990s and 2000s. On September 06 2025 16:08 PremoBeats wrote:
Skill ceilings, I actually think that the skill ceiling has been lowered by the neutering of strategic diversity, and that factors heavily into how much I enjoy Legacy of the Void. It's only my opinion, but I believe the game got worse with each successive expansion, because Blizzard chose to focus too heavily on fast expansions and worker harassment. On September 06 2025 16:08 PremoBeats wrote:
how post-military players triumphed, That going into the military isn't akin to retirement is emblematic of the scene being considerably weaker/shallower than it was in Wings of Liberty and Heart of the Swarm. This isn't something to be celebrated. On September 06 2025 16:08 PremoBeats wrote:
new legacies being built, You can't really build a legacy in a weaker/shallower scene. On September 06 2025 16:08 PremoBeats wrote:
the engagement from all the content creators... We've always had plenty of engagement from content creators and that's amazing. We no longer have consistent engagement from major eSports organisations and that's concerning. All good... everyone is entitled to their opinion of the game. It simply looked weird to me... but perhaps I only saw a couple of negative posts in a row and misjudged. My opinion about the military differs quite a bit. If the scene was so much weaker, why don't we have young players like the 17/18-year-olds from WoL/HotS grabbing world cups and GSLs? It would be easy money, no? My take is, that the needed qualities - especially entrance hurdles - changed over the course of the game (alongside financing and establishment of players, lesser patches, less impactful changes, fewer players, the emergence of one insanely good beast, etc.). SC2 became more stable and back in 2016 when the game was only 6 years old, players simply weren't old enough to go to military and return. And some didn't have it in them, to grind their way back, while others did. 2025 most definitely marked another cut with yet another change to GSL, only 4 high stakes tournaments and the late announcement of SC2's participation at EWC and I'd agree that the future doesn't look too bright. But hey, we fancy a 15-year-old game, which simply isn't made for the short attention spanned modern audience... gotta keep our heads high. On September 08 2025 23:06 Harris1st wrote:
All but one of Maru's achievements come from 2018 and onward and in that timeframe Serral is just sooooooo much better in every metric... Maru won an OSL and SSL and was an insanely good Proleague player. But yeah... agree on Serral being much better in every metric. On September 09 2025 02:28 ejozl wrote:On September 07 2025 15:00 PremoBeats wrote:[quote] Top 2 Terran or overall in 2015 in your opinion? Because sOs, INno, Rain, Life and even herO or Classic could all be placed above Maru's 2015, depending on which metrics/accolades one focuses on. What exactly do you mean by Maru reigning more like a king than Serral? A crown-less king, as he never won a World Championship? On a more serious note: I think Serral's post-2018 needs to be much stronger in the context of Miz' analysis (in my opinion it is in all relevant metrics... by far). How else could Serral have overtaken Maru in the update, given that Maru definitely "scored more points" up until 2018? No, I wasn't trying to be hyperbolic, I was addressing this by you: " Or if he explained how Maru reigned, if he wasn't even the most dominant Terran player for extended periods at peak competitiveness" Maru was top 2 terran in 2015. And maru reigned as the king of terran moreso than serral the king of zerg from 2018 and forward. Maru was "only" the 2nd best Terran in 2015, not the entirety of prime SC2 as a congregate. And on top only Terran, not overall. By the end of 2017, Mvp and INno - possibly other Terrans as well - were still ahead of Maru (I said several times that imo Maru overtook INno only in 2022, by which time Serral bypassed Maru). I also don't understand why one would look at this through a race-perspective if not only to benefit Maru's claim, as Serral was clearly not only the best Zerg but clearly the best player overall. He literally is/was the king of all races (if one wants to implement these kinds of words), not only one, in all relevant metrics from 2018-2022, or 2018 until now. And perhaps that's just me, but reigning to me is different from being the 2nd best player in one year of one race (in regards to Drahkn's post). Maru was only top 2, yet that far greater than what serral achieved in this time, all I remember from him was playing 1 single impressive bo3 vs. jaedong. I talked about race in this post because you said he wasn't even the clear number 1 terran in a period of top competition, yet serral has not been the top zerg for many of his years and there are 3 of the damn buggers in top 4 in terms of achievements counting this same time, meanwhile I don't even know who the next terran would be after maru. Maru = king of terran, serral = one other zerg in the great succession of zergs. I never said that Serral was any good in that era. Another user claimed that Maru reigned in it when he was the 2nd best Terran and top 7th-10th overall at best, thus the notion is nonsense. So I don't get your point. And what does it even matter that Serral only exploded after finishing school and turning full time pro, when he surpassed everyone - including Maru - after he did so? Or why does it matter that some Zerg players could keep up with Serral some years? Some Terrans predated Maru. INno's 2019 also was arguably better than Maru's... TY won 2 GSLs in 2020. Cure won a GSL in 2021, Maru none. And while Terrans like Oli and Clem won the World Championship, Maru did not. I am not really sure what these fragmented views should prove to be honest, as overall Serral is by far the best statistical player from 2018 onwards, meaning for half the game's existence. No other player that played alongside him, after he turned his full attention towards the game is in any way, shape or form comparable and he is way ahead in any relevant metric to measure greatness. No idea how you are able to ignore Mvp and INno in a "great succession of Terrans" or what these obscure lines of argumentation should prove. Maru has an insanely good resume but Serral's is simply better. No shame in that. These recent discussions do both of them absolutely no justice. On September 10 2025 03:05 Mizenhauer wrote:
Welcome to Brood War!
lol My point is that maru even from 2018 and forward is the bigger outlier, and this was AFTER he was named the 4th race in hots. Back then domination in the same way wasn't possible, even mvp who was crowned by many the goat wasn't the favourite for most of his tournament wins, so implying it isn't impressive to be top 2 terran in 2015 is dumb. Statistics might be impressive, but I guess the last ever samurai probably also had a pretty good record in terms of dueling.. But he wasn't. Serral clearly is the bigger outlier statistically against every other player. I don't see anyone coming close to him in average place, tournament participation win ratios, tournament wins, match win rates or Aligulac rating. Where do you think Maru is better than Serral? I never said that it wasn't impressive being the 2nd best Terran. I simply corrected someone who said that Maru reigned in the most competitive era, when he was at best in the top7/8. Reigning means being the best or most important in a particular situation, which Maru was not back then. Okay, so serral is the bigger outlier in terms of win rate, and maru is the bigger outlier in terms of carrying its race burden. I think he's got a case for achievements which is the only thing that matters in the debate for me, and when you count in era it becomes strong as hell, and when you count in race it becomes overwhelming. I think the reigned word was probably just a bad wod choice, but all these words get synonymous in e-sport, he reigned, he terrorized, he dominated and etc. I would say a player like MC reigned, even though he might not've been the statistical best, in the way that he dominated the show and flew everywhere all the time. As for the 2nd best that's a dumb argument, you would all agree maru > dear, even though you would say maru wasn't the best at a time, when dear was for a very brief moment. Serral's and Maru's achievements only become comparable if you entirely disregard his region-locks. To make Maru be better than Serral with an era-justification, you'd have to pump up era as a metric so much that other players who won a lot more in the prime-era will overtake Maru, as most of his accomplishments are outside of the prime-era. That is shown when constant, non-changeable multipliers are tied to the results of these players. And this "carrying-one's-race-burden" thing... How would you even measure it? How do you incorporate the fact that there were 3 Terran world champions since Maru won his first big tournament, while he was never able to do it? Or how TY won 2 GSLs in 2020 and Maru none? Or how would you control for your race simply having one or two more good players, instead of race itself being an issue? Would you analyze this whole-career-wise or on a yearly basis? Against single players who played in the same race? I have a hunch that herO would overtake Maru in a setup you described, as he had much more wins in the prime-era and carried his race when no one really else held the candle. But placing so many arbitrary restrictions on the discussion sounds more like a GOAT-order from wish imo. PS: And funny, I imagined your GOAT-metric-to-go would be prize money On September 11 2025 23:48 EEk1TwEEk wrote:On March 16 2024 08:18 Antithesis wrote:
Serral is the #1 Greatest of all Time.
Maru is doubtlessly the #2 behind him, though. U nuts? Serral never played gsl I think you just solved SC2! Why did no one else ever think of that? I have measured it hence why I know maru comes on top. I disregard region locks, his gsl vs. world and homestory cups by 3/4's because region lock doesn't feature koreans, and hsc (the ones he won) and gsl vs. the world are invitationals. Other players who have won during the prime years don't have 4 gsls or anything comparable, and terran was objectively weakest during this time. TY was a power house, but clearly not no/ 1, when maru is winning 4 gsls in a row. Serral not performing during the prime years, that zerg might've been OP, and serral not winning gsl - are all comparable to maru not being able to win a world championship. Oh.. but then.. he did. + Show Spoiler +
But forget it Jake, it's china town.
If you disregard everything Serral won in the period between 2018 and now, then Maru was indeed the best player in that time span.
Thank god whe finally solved the puzzle
|
On September 12 2025 20:13 ejozl wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2025 15:28 PremoBeats wrote:On September 11 2025 21:53 ejozl wrote:On September 10 2025 17:42 PremoBeats wrote:On September 10 2025 08:01 WombaT wrote:On September 10 2025 02:36 Pentarp wrote:
Maru was the Terran Hope and the Fourth Race.
Some of you are clueless as hell. Was he The Machine though? I mean Inno did win the TL user-voted GOAT tournament way back when, it’s not outrageous to claim he shaded it in the Kespa era. Some considered Mvp the greater at that time too, although he didn’t progress as far in the bracket, given his World Champs and overseas international wins at the time. Maru’s claim becomes awkward because it relies a lot on his longevity, but a longevity that overlaps with Serral, who outdid him in that particular span. One doesn’t have to lack knowledge, or not consider Maru an incredible talent to notice some of the fudging people do to make his case. That's exactly the point... Maru was never the best of any era. He was always surpassed by others. It needs to be highlighted that he is the statistically 2nd best player of all time, but until 2018 many players are above his claim and post-2018 Serral rose and took over. And I hate to point this out over and over as it doesn't do Maru's achievements justice, but being the 7th or 8th up until the 2nd best doesn't make you the Greatest in my opinion. On September 10 2025 16:49 ejozl wrote:On September 10 2025 06:52 PremoBeats wrote:On September 09 2025 16:54 Hider wrote:My opinion about the military differs quite a bit. If the scene was so much weaker, why don't we have young players like the 17/18-year-olds from WoL/HotS grabbing world cups and GSLs? It would be easy money, no?
My take is, that the needed qualities - especially entrance hurdles - changed over the course of the game (alongside financing and establishment of players, lesser patches, less impactful changes, fewer players, the emergence of one insanely good beast, etc.). SC2 became more stable and back in 2016 when the game was only 6 years old, players simply weren't old enough to go to military and return. And some didn't have it in them, to grind their way back, while others did.
It's actually the other way around. The fact we don't get newcomers winning indicates stagnation/lower level of competitiveness. In all sports/esports we see this pattern. When we don't see it it's a sign not enough new players play it. This means the old guard continues to be the best. If Sc2 was still as popular as it was in the earlier days, majority of the current old top 30 players would have been replaced by now. I think Balnazza summed it up quite well. On September 09 2025 23:50 ejozl wrote:On September 09 2025 16:03 PremoBeats wrote:On September 08 2025 19:46 MJG wrote:On September 06 2025 16:08 PremoBeats wrote:[quote] I mean, no one is forcing anyone to watch and comment on a game that they dislike. You wrote, that you are still passionate, but passion sounds different to me I'm also very passionate about Manchester United. That passion doesn't blind me to the fact that we're no longer doing as well as we did in the 1990s and 2000s. On September 06 2025 16:08 PremoBeats wrote:
Skill ceilings, I actually think that the skill ceiling has been lowered by the neutering of strategic diversity, and that factors heavily into how much I enjoy Legacy of the Void. It's only my opinion, but I believe the game got worse with each successive expansion, because Blizzard chose to focus too heavily on fast expansions and worker harassment. On September 06 2025 16:08 PremoBeats wrote:
how post-military players triumphed, That going into the military isn't akin to retirement is emblematic of the scene being considerably weaker/shallower than it was in Wings of Liberty and Heart of the Swarm. This isn't something to be celebrated. On September 06 2025 16:08 PremoBeats wrote:
new legacies being built, You can't really build a legacy in a weaker/shallower scene. On September 06 2025 16:08 PremoBeats wrote:
the engagement from all the content creators... We've always had plenty of engagement from content creators and that's amazing. We no longer have consistent engagement from major eSports organisations and that's concerning. All good... everyone is entitled to their opinion of the game. It simply looked weird to me... but perhaps I only saw a couple of negative posts in a row and misjudged. My opinion about the military differs quite a bit. If the scene was so much weaker, why don't we have young players like the 17/18-year-olds from WoL/HotS grabbing world cups and GSLs? It would be easy money, no? My take is, that the needed qualities - especially entrance hurdles - changed over the course of the game (alongside financing and establishment of players, lesser patches, less impactful changes, fewer players, the emergence of one insanely good beast, etc.). SC2 became more stable and back in 2016 when the game was only 6 years old, players simply weren't old enough to go to military and return. And some didn't have it in them, to grind their way back, while others did. 2025 most definitely marked another cut with yet another change to GSL, only 4 high stakes tournaments and the late announcement of SC2's participation at EWC and I'd agree that the future doesn't look too bright. But hey, we fancy a 15-year-old game, which simply isn't made for the short attention spanned modern audience... gotta keep our heads high. On September 08 2025 23:06 Harris1st wrote:
All but one of Maru's achievements come from 2018 and onward and in that timeframe Serral is just sooooooo much better in every metric... Maru won an OSL and SSL and was an insanely good Proleague player. But yeah... agree on Serral being much better in every metric. On September 09 2025 02:28 ejozl wrote:On September 07 2025 15:00 PremoBeats wrote:[quote] Top 2 Terran or overall in 2015 in your opinion? Because sOs, INno, Rain, Life and even herO or Classic could all be placed above Maru's 2015, depending on which metrics/accolades one focuses on. What exactly do you mean by Maru reigning more like a king than Serral? A crown-less king, as he never won a World Championship? On a more serious note: I think Serral's post-2018 needs to be much stronger in the context of Miz' analysis (in my opinion it is in all relevant metrics... by far). How else could Serral have overtaken Maru in the update, given that Maru definitely "scored more points" up until 2018? No, I wasn't trying to be hyperbolic, I was addressing this by you: " Or if he explained how Maru reigned, if he wasn't even the most dominant Terran player for extended periods at peak competitiveness" Maru was top 2 terran in 2015. And maru reigned as the king of terran moreso than serral the king of zerg from 2018 and forward. Maru was "only" the 2nd best Terran in 2015, not the entirety of prime SC2 as a congregate. And on top only Terran, not overall. By the end of 2017, Mvp and INno - possibly other Terrans as well - were still ahead of Maru (I said several times that imo Maru overtook INno only in 2022, by which time Serral bypassed Maru). I also don't understand why one would look at this through a race-perspective if not only to benefit Maru's claim, as Serral was clearly not only the best Zerg but clearly the best player overall. He literally is/was the king of all races (if one wants to implement these kinds of words), not only one, in all relevant metrics from 2018-2022, or 2018 until now. And perhaps that's just me, but reigning to me is different from being the 2nd best player in one year of one race (in regards to Drahkn's post). Maru was only top 2, yet that far greater than what serral achieved in this time, all I remember from him was playing 1 single impressive bo3 vs. jaedong. I talked about race in this post because you said he wasn't even the clear number 1 terran in a period of top competition, yet serral has not been the top zerg for many of his years and there are 3 of the damn buggers in top 4 in terms of achievements counting this same time, meanwhile I don't even know who the next terran would be after maru. Maru = king of terran, serral = one other zerg in the great succession of zergs. I never said that Serral was any good in that era. Another user claimed that Maru reigned in it when he was the 2nd best Terran and top 7th-10th overall at best, thus the notion is nonsense. So I don't get your point. And what does it even matter that Serral only exploded after finishing school and turning full time pro, when he surpassed everyone - including Maru - after he did so? Or why does it matter that some Zerg players could keep up with Serral some years? Some Terrans predated Maru. INno's 2019 also was arguably better than Maru's... TY won 2 GSLs in 2020. Cure won a GSL in 2021, Maru none. And while Terrans like Oli and Clem won the World Championship, Maru did not. I am not really sure what these fragmented views should prove to be honest, as overall Serral is by far the best statistical player from 2018 onwards, meaning for half the game's existence. No other player that played alongside him, after he turned his full attention towards the game is in any way, shape or form comparable and he is way ahead in any relevant metric to measure greatness. No idea how you are able to ignore Mvp and INno in a "great succession of Terrans" or what these obscure lines of argumentation should prove. Maru has an insanely good resume but Serral's is simply better. No shame in that. These recent discussions do both of them absolutely no justice. On September 10 2025 03:05 Mizenhauer wrote:
Welcome to Brood War!
lol My point is that maru even from 2018 and forward is the bigger outlier, and this was AFTER he was named the 4th race in hots. Back then domination in the same way wasn't possible, even mvp who was crowned by many the goat wasn't the favourite for most of his tournament wins, so implying it isn't impressive to be top 2 terran in 2015 is dumb. Statistics might be impressive, but I guess the last ever samurai probably also had a pretty good record in terms of dueling.. But he wasn't. Serral clearly is the bigger outlier statistically against every other player. I don't see anyone coming close to him in average place, tournament participation win ratios, tournament wins, match win rates or Aligulac rating. Where do you think Maru is better than Serral? I never said that it wasn't impressive being the 2nd best Terran. I simply corrected someone who said that Maru reigned in the most competitive era, when he was at best in the top7/8. Reigning means being the best or most important in a particular situation, which Maru was not back then. Okay, so serral is the bigger outlier in terms of win rate, and maru is the bigger outlier in terms of carrying its race burden. I think he's got a case for achievements which is the only thing that matters in the debate for me, and when you count in era it becomes strong as hell, and when you count in race it becomes overwhelming. I think the reigned word was probably just a bad wod choice, but all these words get synonymous in e-sport, he reigned, he terrorized, he dominated and etc. I would say a player like MC reigned, even though he might not've been the statistical best, in the way that he dominated the show and flew everywhere all the time. As for the 2nd best that's a dumb argument, you would all agree maru > dear, even though you would say maru wasn't the best at a time, when dear was for a very brief moment. Serral's and Maru's achievements only become comparable if you entirely disregard his region-locks. To make Maru be better than Serral with an era-justification, you'd have to pump up era as a metric so much that other players who won a lot more in the prime-era will overtake Maru, as most of his accomplishments are outside of the prime-era. That is shown when constant, non-changeable multipliers are tied to the results of these players. And this "carrying-one's-race-burden" thing... How would you even measure it? How do you incorporate the fact that there were 3 Terran world champions since Maru won his first big tournament, while he was never able to do it? Or how TY won 2 GSLs in 2020 and Maru none? Or how would you control for your race simply having one or two more good players, instead of race itself being an issue? Would you analyze this whole-career-wise or on a yearly basis? Against single players who played in the same race? I have a hunch that herO would overtake Maru in a setup you described, as he had much more wins in the prime-era and carried his race when no one really else held the candle. But placing so many arbitrary restrictions on the discussion sounds more like a GOAT-order from wish imo. PS: And funny, I imagined your GOAT-metric-to-go would be prize money On September 11 2025 23:48 EEk1TwEEk wrote:On March 16 2024 08:18 Antithesis wrote:
Serral is the #1 Greatest of all Time.
Maru is doubtlessly the #2 behind him, though. U nuts? Serral never played gsl I think you just solved SC2! Why did no one else ever think of that? I have measured it hence why I know maru comes on top. I disregard region locks, his gsl vs. world and homestory cups by 3/4's because region lock doesn't feature koreans, and hsc (the ones he won) and gsl vs. the world are invitationals. Other players who have won during the prime years don't have 4 gsls or anything comparable, and terran was objectively weakest during this time. TY was a power house, but clearly not no/ 1, when maru is winning 4 gsls in a row. Serral not performing during the prime years, that zerg might've been OP, and serral not winning gsl - are all comparable to maru not being able to win a world championship. Oh.. but then.. he did. + Show Spoiler +
But forget it Jake, it's china town.
There's a lot to unpack.
1a. Would you upload the screenshots or send me the excel of the calculation?
1b. How exactly did you factor in era and the race-burden-thing?
2. What do you mean by "Terran was objectively weakest"? According to which metric/s?
3. Maru winning 4 GSLs was 2018 till early 2019. TY's wins were 2020. I am not making the argument that TY was the number 1 Terran... I simply wanted to know how exactly your race-burden-thing works.
4. The things you mentioned in your last sentence are all pretty heavily context-dependent and aren't really comparable like that in a one-liner.
5. Did you disregard/discount any other tournaments?
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On September 12 2025 21:20 PremoBeats wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2025 20:13 ejozl wrote:On September 12 2025 15:28 PremoBeats wrote:On September 11 2025 21:53 ejozl wrote:On September 10 2025 17:42 PremoBeats wrote:On September 10 2025 08:01 WombaT wrote:On September 10 2025 02:36 Pentarp wrote:
Maru was the Terran Hope and the Fourth Race.
Some of you are clueless as hell. Was he The Machine though? I mean Inno did win the TL user-voted GOAT tournament way back when, it’s not outrageous to claim he shaded it in the Kespa era. Some considered Mvp the greater at that time too, although he didn’t progress as far in the bracket, given his World Champs and overseas international wins at the time. Maru’s claim becomes awkward because it relies a lot on his longevity, but a longevity that overlaps with Serral, who outdid him in that particular span. One doesn’t have to lack knowledge, or not consider Maru an incredible talent to notice some of the fudging people do to make his case. That's exactly the point... Maru was never the best of any era. He was always surpassed by others. It needs to be highlighted that he is the statistically 2nd best player of all time, but until 2018 many players are above his claim and post-2018 Serral rose and took over. And I hate to point this out over and over as it doesn't do Maru's achievements justice, but being the 7th or 8th up until the 2nd best doesn't make you the Greatest in my opinion. On September 10 2025 16:49 ejozl wrote:On September 10 2025 06:52 PremoBeats wrote:On September 09 2025 16:54 Hider wrote:My opinion about the military differs quite a bit. If the scene was so much weaker, why don't we have young players like the 17/18-year-olds from WoL/HotS grabbing world cups and GSLs? It would be easy money, no?
My take is, that the needed qualities - especially entrance hurdles - changed over the course of the game (alongside financing and establishment of players, lesser patches, less impactful changes, fewer players, the emergence of one insanely good beast, etc.). SC2 became more stable and back in 2016 when the game was only 6 years old, players simply weren't old enough to go to military and return. And some didn't have it in them, to grind their way back, while others did.
It's actually the other way around. The fact we don't get newcomers winning indicates stagnation/lower level of competitiveness. In all sports/esports we see this pattern. When we don't see it it's a sign not enough new players play it. This means the old guard continues to be the best. If Sc2 was still as popular as it was in the earlier days, majority of the current old top 30 players would have been replaced by now. I think Balnazza summed it up quite well. On September 09 2025 23:50 ejozl wrote:On September 09 2025 16:03 PremoBeats wrote:On September 08 2025 19:46 MJG wrote:[quote] I'm also very passionate about Manchester United. That passion doesn't blind me to the fact that we're no longer doing as well as we did in the 1990s and 2000s. [quote] I actually think that the skill ceiling has been lowered by the neutering of strategic diversity, and that factors heavily into how much I enjoy Legacy of the Void. It's only my opinion, but I believe the game got worse with each successive expansion, because Blizzard chose to focus too heavily on fast expansions and worker harassment. [quote] That going into the military isn't akin to retirement is emblematic of the scene being considerably weaker/shallower than it was in Wings of Liberty and Heart of the Swarm. This isn't something to be celebrated. [quote] You can't really build a legacy in a weaker/shallower scene. [quote] We've always had plenty of engagement from content creators and that's amazing. We no longer have consistent engagement from major eSports organisations and that's concerning. All good... everyone is entitled to their opinion of the game. It simply looked weird to me... but perhaps I only saw a couple of negative posts in a row and misjudged. My opinion about the military differs quite a bit. If the scene was so much weaker, why don't we have young players like the 17/18-year-olds from WoL/HotS grabbing world cups and GSLs? It would be easy money, no? My take is, that the needed qualities - especially entrance hurdles - changed over the course of the game (alongside financing and establishment of players, lesser patches, less impactful changes, fewer players, the emergence of one insanely good beast, etc.). SC2 became more stable and back in 2016 when the game was only 6 years old, players simply weren't old enough to go to military and return. And some didn't have it in them, to grind their way back, while others did. 2025 most definitely marked another cut with yet another change to GSL, only 4 high stakes tournaments and the late announcement of SC2's participation at EWC and I'd agree that the future doesn't look too bright. But hey, we fancy a 15-year-old game, which simply isn't made for the short attention spanned modern audience... gotta keep our heads high. On September 08 2025 23:06 Harris1st wrote:
All but one of Maru's achievements come from 2018 and onward and in that timeframe Serral is just sooooooo much better in every metric... Maru won an OSL and SSL and was an insanely good Proleague player. But yeah... agree on Serral being much better in every metric. On September 09 2025 02:28 ejozl wrote:
[quote]
No, I wasn't trying to be hyperbolic, I was addressing this by you: "
Or if he explained how Maru reigned, if he wasn't even the most dominant Terran player for extended periods at peak competitiveness"
Maru was top 2 terran in 2015. And maru reigned as the king of terran moreso than serral the king of zerg from 2018 and forward. Maru was "only" the 2nd best Terran in 2015, not the entirety of prime SC2 as a congregate. And on top only Terran, not overall. By the end of 2017, Mvp and INno - possibly other Terrans as well - were still ahead of Maru (I said several times that imo Maru overtook INno only in 2022, by which time Serral bypassed Maru). I also don't understand why one would look at this through a race-perspective if not only to benefit Maru's claim, as Serral was clearly not only the best Zerg but clearly the best player overall. He literally is/was the king of all races (if one wants to implement these kinds of words), not only one, in all relevant metrics from 2018-2022, or 2018 until now. And perhaps that's just me, but reigning to me is different from being the 2nd best player in one year of one race (in regards to Drahkn's post). Maru was only top 2, yet that far greater than what serral achieved in this time, all I remember from him was playing 1 single impressive bo3 vs. jaedong. I talked about race in this post because you said he wasn't even the clear number 1 terran in a period of top competition, yet serral has not been the top zerg for many of his years and there are 3 of the damn buggers in top 4 in terms of achievements counting this same time, meanwhile I don't even know who the next terran would be after maru. Maru = king of terran, serral = one other zerg in the great succession of zergs. I never said that Serral was any good in that era. Another user claimed that Maru reigned in it when he was the 2nd best Terran and top 7th-10th overall at best, thus the notion is nonsense. So I don't get your point. And what does it even matter that Serral only exploded after finishing school and turning full time pro, when he surpassed everyone - including Maru - after he did so? Or why does it matter that some Zerg players could keep up with Serral some years? Some Terrans predated Maru. INno's 2019 also was arguably better than Maru's... TY won 2 GSLs in 2020. Cure won a GSL in 2021, Maru none. And while Terrans like Oli and Clem won the World Championship, Maru did not. I am not really sure what these fragmented views should prove to be honest, as overall Serral is by far the best statistical player from 2018 onwards, meaning for half the game's existence. No other player that played alongside him, after he turned his full attention towards the game is in any way, shape or form comparable and he is way ahead in any relevant metric to measure greatness. No idea how you are able to ignore Mvp and INno in a "great succession of Terrans" or what these obscure lines of argumentation should prove. Maru has an insanely good resume but Serral's is simply better. No shame in that. These recent discussions do both of them absolutely no justice. On September 10 2025 03:05 Mizenhauer wrote:
Welcome to Brood War!
lol My point is that maru even from 2018 and forward is the bigger outlier, and this was AFTER he was named the 4th race in hots. Back then domination in the same way wasn't possible, even mvp who was crowned by many the goat wasn't the favourite for most of his tournament wins, so implying it isn't impressive to be top 2 terran in 2015 is dumb. Statistics might be impressive, but I guess the last ever samurai probably also had a pretty good record in terms of dueling.. But he wasn't. Serral clearly is the bigger outlier statistically against every other player. I don't see anyone coming close to him in average place, tournament participation win ratios, tournament wins, match win rates or Aligulac rating. Where do you think Maru is better than Serral? I never said that it wasn't impressive being the 2nd best Terran. I simply corrected someone who said that Maru reigned in the most competitive era, when he was at best in the top7/8. Reigning means being the best or most important in a particular situation, which Maru was not back then. Okay, so serral is the bigger outlier in terms of win rate, and maru is the bigger outlier in terms of carrying its race burden. I think he's got a case for achievements which is the only thing that matters in the debate for me, and when you count in era it becomes strong as hell, and when you count in race it becomes overwhelming. I think the reigned word was probably just a bad wod choice, but all these words get synonymous in e-sport, he reigned, he terrorized, he dominated and etc. I would say a player like MC reigned, even though he might not've been the statistical best, in the way that he dominated the show and flew everywhere all the time. As for the 2nd best that's a dumb argument, you would all agree maru > dear, even though you would say maru wasn't the best at a time, when dear was for a very brief moment. Serral's and Maru's achievements only become comparable if you entirely disregard his region-locks. To make Maru be better than Serral with an era-justification, you'd have to pump up era as a metric so much that other players who won a lot more in the prime-era will overtake Maru, as most of his accomplishments are outside of the prime-era. That is shown when constant, non-changeable multipliers are tied to the results of these players. And this "carrying-one's-race-burden" thing... How would you even measure it? How do you incorporate the fact that there were 3 Terran world champions since Maru won his first big tournament, while he was never able to do it? Or how TY won 2 GSLs in 2020 and Maru none? Or how would you control for your race simply having one or two more good players, instead of race itself being an issue? Would you analyze this whole-career-wise or on a yearly basis? Against single players who played in the same race? I have a hunch that herO would overtake Maru in a setup you described, as he had much more wins in the prime-era and carried his race when no one really else held the candle. But placing so many arbitrary restrictions on the discussion sounds more like a GOAT-order from wish imo. PS: And funny, I imagined your GOAT-metric-to-go would be prize money On September 11 2025 23:48 EEk1TwEEk wrote:On March 16 2024 08:18 Antithesis wrote:
Serral is the #1 Greatest of all Time.
Maru is doubtlessly the #2 behind him, though. U nuts? Serral never played gsl I think you just solved SC2! Why did no one else ever think of that? I have measured it hence why I know maru comes on top. I disregard region locks, his gsl vs. world and homestory cups by 3/4's because region lock doesn't feature koreans, and hsc (the ones he won) and gsl vs. the world are invitationals. Other players who have won during the prime years don't have 4 gsls or anything comparable, and terran was objectively weakest during this time. TY was a power house, but clearly not no/ 1, when maru is winning 4 gsls in a row. Serral not performing during the prime years, that zerg might've been OP, and serral not winning gsl - are all comparable to maru not being able to win a world championship. Oh.. but then.. he did. + Show Spoiler +
But forget it Jake, it's china town.
There's a lot to unpack. 1a. Would you upload the screenshots or send me the excel of the calculation? 1b. How exactly did you factor in era and the race-burden-thing? 2. What do you mean by "Terran was objectively weakest"? According to which metric/s? 3. Maru winning 4 GSLs was 2018 till early 2019. TY's wins were 2020. I am not making the argument that TY was the number 1 Terran... I simply wanted to know how exactly your race-burden-thing works. 4. The things you mentioned in your last sentence are all pretty heavily context-dependent and aren't really comparable like that in a one-liner. 5. Did you disregard/discount any other tournaments?
You can see his absolute shit-show of a ranking here
The main metric for this ranking is basically "everything that isn't GSL doesn't count, but also everything not won by Maru doesn't count because he wouldn't have enough points otherwise. Also Terran was the weakest race ever for some reason, even though during most of his GSL-wins Terran was overrepresented in GSL playoffs and multiple Terrans have won World Championships, except the 'Terran Hope', but that is because World Championships also only give out 1/60000 of points because they are not GSL during the prime-years between tuesday and thursday."
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On September 12 2025 12:41 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2025 16:59 MJG wrote:On September 11 2025 05:21 Balnazza wrote:On September 10 2025 15:25 MJG wrote:On September 09 2025 23:46 Balnazza wrote:
So in short, SC2 is at this weird place were the top-dogs are still too skilled at the game to be easily replaced, while the scene itself is too small to support new players. And without EWC, there is really no argument to even become a pro in SC2 anymore. You've just described stagnation, which is what you were arguing against... Stagnation is not the same as decline, which is what you proclaim. Specifically, decline in skill-level You were replying to Hider, who specifically said "stagnation" in their post... Huh, yeah, apparently I mixed a few posts together there. Then I guess I just kind of proved his point, which is fine, considering it still holds up for the GOAT-debate, proving (or atleast argueing) that the things that happen in todays game-state still matter.
Stagnation means that dominance becomes mundane because fresh competition never develops.
Dominance occurring during a period of stagnation shouldn't contribute towards a GOAT debate because it's not remarkable. This can be said to apply to both Serral and Maru fairly equally, so if the GOAT is determined by whose dominance I find most remarkable, then it's neither of those players.
But that's just my personal opinion as someone whose not really a big fan of the idea of a singular GOAT in a game with three asymmetrically balanced factions and three diverse expansions.
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On September 12 2025 22:22 MJG wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2025 12:41 Balnazza wrote:On September 11 2025 16:59 MJG wrote:On September 11 2025 05:21 Balnazza wrote:On September 10 2025 15:25 MJG wrote:On September 09 2025 23:46 Balnazza wrote:
So in short, SC2 is at this weird place were the top-dogs are still too skilled at the game to be easily replaced, while the scene itself is too small to support new players. And without EWC, there is really no argument to even become a pro in SC2 anymore. You've just described stagnation, which is what you were arguing against... Stagnation is not the same as decline, which is what you proclaim. Specifically, decline in skill-level You were replying to Hider, who specifically said "stagnation" in their post... Huh, yeah, apparently I mixed a few posts together there. Then I guess I just kind of proved his point, which is fine, considering it still holds up for the GOAT-debate, proving (or atleast argueing) that the things that happen in todays game-state still matter. Stagnation means that dominance becomes mundane because fresh competition never develops. Dominance occurring during a period of stagnation shouldn't contribute towards a GOAT debate because it's not remarkable. This can be said to apply to both Serral and Maru fairly equally, so if the GOAT is determined by whose dominance I find most remarkable, then it's neither of those players.
There is some truth to that, but it is also very simplistic. While the scene has been stagnating for a while, it isn't like they play for scraps. For years and years SC2 still offered pretty good prizemoney, so if someone really good wanted to entered the scene, they could have. The fact that it barely happened means that the skill-level was still extremly high, not just "the best of the rest" playing.
That is why I always thought it was awkward when people compared Serral to Happy in WC3. Happy, for most of the Reforged-era, played for 500 bucks crowd-founded prizemoney. Serral played for 30K upwards. Huge difference.
But that's just my personal opinion as someone whose not really a big fan of the idea of a singular GOAT in a game with three asymmetrically balanced factions and three diverse expansions.
I mean, you don't seem to be a fan of a lot of things, so that isn't particularly surprising tbh
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EPT
