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On March 16 2024 22:39 Nasigil wrote:
Look, it's okay to have opinions in a personal ranking like this, and I respect the amount of effort and research goes behind it, especially enjoyed the career recap portion. But the biggest problem of the list is lack of consistency in its criteria. Miz clearly did extensive research and listed all kinds of graphs of tournament results, win rates against peers and Proleague records for each player, but he didn't quite explain the process of how he weights and values everything in the end.
In the Mvp article, he said he put Mvp over Innovation because Mvp is more dominant during his prime (only one year), and he values it over Innovation's much longer and successful career. Then in Maru article, he admits Maru is not as dominant as Serral but praised his "otherworldly longevity", and just lightly brushed off the fact that the supposedly GOAT doesn't have a single WC title by just saying "but longevity!"
If you value peak over longevity, then Serral should definitely above Maru. If you value longevity over peak, then there's no way in hell Mvp is above Innovation and Dark is below the likes of TY, Rain, sOs, soO. It feels like he's just in the middle and decide which one he values more depends on the player.
If the list is #1 Maru, #2 Serral, #4 Innovation, #5 Dark, #6 Mvp then yeah I understand it, you are looking at big picture and take whole career into consideration. If it's Miz's list but with Serral on top, then I understand he values the peak performance and domination. But the current ranking is just perplexing.
That's the strange thing about this ranking, it doesn't explain exactly how it came to be ranked
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On March 16 2024 22:32 MyLovelyLurker wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2024 18:44 Snakestyle1 wrote:
GSL has been really weak for at least 3 years. How many GSL would Maru have won if Serral played in every GSL? Probably not quite as many. This is a legendary if nuanced point. We are always double-counting Serral's lack of GSLs, because Maru, Rogue etc won those. If Serral had played in Code S since 2018, not only would he probably have won about 4, that means it'd be one less at least for each of Maru, Rogue, and Dark, thus making them look worse (and not just Serral better).
You shouldn't just assert hypotheticals that never happened and use them to adjust your perspective of what actually did happen. It would go both ways: If Serral didn't play in most of the tournaments he won, then he would be ranked worse than #2... but that doesn't mean he should actually be ranked worse than #2. The fact of the matter is that Serral won zero Code S tournaments, and that may mean something to some people who value Code S tournaments.
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On March 16 2024 07:42 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2024 07:31 PtitDrogo wrote:
Thank you for the wonderful articles ! They have been a joy to read and the research going into it is very nice.
But also Serral got robbed + L + ratio + koreaboo ![[image loading]](https://tl.net/staff/Mizenhauer/santa.jpeg)
Your blog posts is gonna be spicy 
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On March 16 2024 09:04 Branch.AUT wrote:
How do you even put maru at #1 after he got SMASHED 4-0 by serral, with 250k on the line? Like how can you think he is better?
Is it because he won the Global Starvation League so many times, when all other players were done competeing there???
The ranking was finalized before IEM Katowice
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Oh no, this author has his personal opinion and it's different from mine!
This should not be allowed!
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On March 16 2024 23:01 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2024 22:32 MyLovelyLurker wrote:On March 16 2024 18:44 Snakestyle1 wrote:
GSL has been really weak for at least 3 years. How many GSL would Maru have won if Serral played in every GSL? Probably not quite as many. This is a legendary if nuanced point. We are always double-counting Serral's lack of GSLs, because Maru, Rogue etc won those. If Serral had played in Code S since 2018, not only would he probably have won about 4, that means it'd be one less at least for each of Maru, Rogue, and Dark, thus making them look worse (and not just Serral better). You can't just assert hypotheticals that never happened and use them to adjust our perspective of what actually did happen. It would go both ways: If Serral didn't play in most of the tournaments he won, then he would be ranked worse than #2... but that doesn't mean he should actually be ranked worse than #2. The fact of the matter is that Serral won zero Code S tournaments, and that may mean something to some people.
No - I agree with that - but this goes to show that top Koreans look better post 2018 because Serral didn't play in GSL. Which is a reasonable/rational (if not factual) weaker form of the extreme 'it's the opposite, GSL was bad as soon as Serral wasn't it' silliness I sometimes see here.
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This list is officially wrong. I asked Claude.ai (from Anthropic) Who is the greatest Starcraft II player of all times ?.
'Determining the greatest Starcraft II player of all time is somewhat subjective and can be debated. However, many people consider Lee "Flash" Young Ho to be one of the greatest, if not the greatest, Starcraft II player in history.
Flash, from South Korea, has had an incredibly dominant and consistent career in Starcraft II, particularly in the early 2010s. Some of his notable achievements include:
Winning the 2010 MLG Global Invitational
Winning the 2011 MLG Global Invitational
Winning the 2012 MLG Fall Championship
Multiple GSL (Global Starcraft II League) titles
Winning the 2012 KeSPA Cup
Numerous other tournament victories and top placements
Flash was known for his unparalleled macro management skills, strategic brilliance, and ability to seemingly always be one step ahead of his opponents. His dominance was so pronounced that he earned the nickname "God" among the Starcraft II community.'
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Well deserved # 1 spot for Maru. His impact on the sport is immense.
Maru is the innovator, the only hope, the dominant.
Serral is only one of those.
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On March 16 2024 23:31 MyLovelyLurker wrote:
This list is officially wrong. I asked Claude.ai (from Anthropic) Who is the greatest Starcraft II player of all times ?.
'Determining the greatest Starcraft II player of all time is somewhat subjective and can be debated. However, many people consider Lee "Flash" Young Ho to be one of the greatest, if not the greatest, Starcraft II player in history.
Flash, from South Korea, has had an incredibly dominant and consistent career in Starcraft II, particularly in the early 2010s. Some of his notable achievements include:
Winning the 2010 MLG Global Invitational
Winning the 2011 MLG Global Invitational
Winning the 2012 MLG Fall Championship
Multiple GSL (Global Starcraft II League) titles
Winning the 2012 KeSPA Cup
Numerous other tournament victories and top placements
Flash was known for his unparalleled macro management skills, strategic brilliance, and ability to seemingly always be one step ahead of his opponents. His dominance was so pronounced that he earned the nickname "God" among the Starcraft II community.'
I asked perplexity the same thing (here) and it decided on maru/rogue/serral, however the funniest part of it was it pulled data from esports-betting-bro which ranked serral as #1.
If there's one thing you can trust when ranking odds, it's definitely a betting website.
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On March 16 2024 23:35 InfCereal wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2024 23:31 MyLovelyLurker wrote:
This list is officially wrong. I asked Claude.ai (from Anthropic) Who is the greatest Starcraft II player of all times ?.
'Determining the greatest Starcraft II player of all time is somewhat subjective and can be debated. However, many people consider Lee "Flash" Young Ho to be one of the greatest, if not the greatest, Starcraft II player in history.
Flash, from South Korea, has had an incredibly dominant and consistent career in Starcraft II, particularly in the early 2010s. Some of his notable achievements include:
Winning the 2010 MLG Global Invitational
Winning the 2011 MLG Global Invitational
Winning the 2012 MLG Fall Championship
Multiple GSL (Global Starcraft II League) titles
Winning the 2012 KeSPA Cup
Numerous other tournament victories and top placements
Flash was known for his unparalleled macro management skills, strategic brilliance, and ability to seemingly always be one step ahead of his opponents. His dominance was so pronounced that he earned the nickname "God" among the Starcraft II community.' I asked perplexity the same thing ( here) and it decided on maru/rogue/serral, however the funniest part of it was it pulled data from esports-betting-bro which ranked serral as #1. If there's one thing you can trust when ranking odds, it's definitely a betting website.
Interesting list from esports-betting-bro. It has Dark at #4. Granted skews too much towards LotV, as shown by my compatriot Clem in #10 (I love Clem, but no, not yet).
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Guys, this article is not called "strongest players now" or even "strongest players ever".
It's "greatest players of all time" article and it's a subjective opinion - just like yours.
You cannot objectively compare a player with 14 years long career and one with just 6-7 years long career, who played in different eras with very different competition level.
Just take this for what it is - a personal opinion of author.
Don't be as pathetic as people who think there are two sorts of opinions - theirs and the wrong ones.
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On March 16 2024 23:45 ZeroByte13 wrote:
Guys, this article is not called "strongest players now" or even "strongest players ever".
It's "greatest players of all time" article and it's a subjective opinion - just like yours.
You cannot objectively compare a player with 14 years long career and one with just 6-7 years long career, who played in different eras with very different competition level.
Just take this for what it is - a personal opinion of author.
Don't be as pathetic as people who think there are two sorts of opinions - theirs and the wrong ones.
Yes, it is an opinion. And other people tell their opinion and try to argue Mizs opinion - because that is how that whole discussion and debate thingy works.
What do you expect people to do? Just write "okay cool" and be done with it? Or is that already too much and the right thing to do would have been to not write any comments at all?
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Serral, Maru, and Rogue are clearly the three best of all time and I think any order among them can be justified. If Serral wins another Katowice/world championship or Maru wins one that would definitively settle the debate for me.
Curious to see the blogpost on Dark and why he got excluded!
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There are different ways to argue.
"This is robbery!" and such is IMO a kinda childish way to do it.
What I'd expect is for people to be adults, respect each other opinions and not think their opinions are objectively better.
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Northern Ireland25997 Posts
On March 17 2024 00:07 ZeroByte13 wrote:
There are different ways to argue.
"This is robbery!" and such is IMO a kinda childish way to do it.
What I'd expect is for people to be adults, respect each other opinions and not think their opinions are objectively better.
Indeed
‘Wise up’ as we say over here. Hey there might be some disagreements but it’s a great series that had a lot of effort put into it
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SoCal8910 Posts
Can't imagine it any other way. I think serral is a great player and maybe if his legend started half a decade earlier I could be convinced that he's #1, but watching Maru grow from literally a little kid to where he's at 10 years later is remarkable.
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Tbh very good list, amazing work, amazing articles, good job and thanks.
And about Maru №1, GSL is like Champions League of sc2, you can't be called GOAT if you're not playing there, so totally deserved
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Poland3751 Posts
On March 16 2024 23:35 InfCereal wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2024 23:31 MyLovelyLurker wrote:
This list is officially wrong. I asked Claude.ai (from Anthropic) Who is the greatest Starcraft II player of all times ?.
'Determining the greatest Starcraft II player of all time is somewhat subjective and can be debated. However, many people consider Lee "Flash" Young Ho to be one of the greatest, if not the greatest, Starcraft II player in history.
Flash, from South Korea, has had an incredibly dominant and consistent career in Starcraft II, particularly in the early 2010s. Some of his notable achievements include:
Winning the 2010 MLG Global Invitational
Winning the 2011 MLG Global Invitational
Winning the 2012 MLG Fall Championship
Multiple GSL (Global Starcraft II League) titles
Winning the 2012 KeSPA Cup
Numerous other tournament victories and top placements
Flash was known for his unparalleled macro management skills, strategic brilliance, and ability to seemingly always be one step ahead of his opponents. His dominance was so pronounced that he earned the nickname "God" among the Starcraft II community.' I asked perplexity the same thing ( here) and it decided on maru/rogue/serral, however the funniest part of it was it pulled data from esports-betting-bro which ranked serral as #1. If there's one thing you can trust when ranking odds, it's definitely a betting website.
I asked ChatGPT 4:
Determining the best StarCraft II player of all time can be quite subjective, as it depends on various criteria such as tournament wins, consistency over time, influence on the game, and individual skill level. However, a few names frequently come up in discussions around this topic:
1. **Joona "Serral" Sotala** - The Finnish Zerg player is often considered one of the best, if not the best, StarCraft II players of all time. Serral made history by winning the 2018 World Championship Series (WCS) Global Finals, becoming the first non-Korean player to do so. His dominance in both international and regional competitions over several years has solidified his status as a legend in the scene.
2. **Lee "Life" Seung Hyun** - Despite his career being cut short due to a lifetime ban for match-fixing, Life was known for his incredible talent and innovative playstyle. He won numerous major tournaments, including the 2014 BlizzCon World Championships, and was considered by many as one of the greatest talents the game has ever seen.
3. **Joo "Zest" Sung Wook** - Zest has been one of the most consistent and successful Protoss players throughout the history of StarCraft II. He has won numerous premier tournaments and has been a top competitor in both Korean and international events for many years.
4. **Eo "soO" Yoon Su** - soO is renowned for his consistency at the highest level of competition. He has finished as the runner-up in numerous World Championship Series events and major Korean tournaments, earning him a reputation as one of the best Zerg players ever, despite the heartbreak of coming in second so often.
5. **Lee "INnoVation" Shin Hyung** - INnoVation is often cited as one of the best Terran players of all time, known for his robotic consistency and exceptional macro play. He has won multiple premier tournaments throughout his career and has been a staple of the competitive scene for many years.
These players are often celebrated for their skill, achievements, and contributions to the StarCraft II community. The best player among them depends on the criteria you value most, such as peak performance, consistency, longevity, or impact on the game.
^I'm ok with that answer
Edit: when I asked for top 10 goat pretenders it was:
Serral > Life > INnoVation > Zest > soO > Maru > TaeJa > Rogue > Dark > TY
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Life, Zest and soO above Maru and Rogue?
Interesting choice for sure.
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First of all, since I have not yet said it: Major props to Miz for crafting this series! The amount of data that has been studied is amazing, and the writing is nothing short of superb. Reading the articles has been a joy. The series also has done the service of generating more discussion about SC2 on this site than anything else in the past years, haha.
That said, I will also happily contribute to the many voices bringing out why, in my view, placing Maru above Serral is a misjudgment.
On March 17 2024 02:09 StaNi wrote:
GSL is like Champions League of sc2
This analogy is flawed even if you are the most blazing Korean elitist.
The Champions League is literally the league where the best-performing teams from different regions play it out. So its counterpart in SC2 is not the GSL, but the World Championship cycle, embodied for example in BlizzCon or the Katowice events. And Serral has won three of them, Maru zero.
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EPT
