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First of all: Thank you Mizenhauer for the entire work, definetly a mammoth of a project.
That being said - yeah, no. Maru being the #1 while never being the #1 at any given time is just weird. He never was THE player, at no time at all. And please don't invoke the "recency bias" (love how we pretend like six years are "recent" btw...). If you remove recency, Marus resume becomes even more bleak.
Probably not even a Top 5 player in HotS, always at best number #2 in LotV just doesn't equal "Greatest Of All Time". And then missing the by far hardest competition to win, the World Championship title (or atleast a win at Katowice) just tops it off.
Maru is good. Scratch good, great. But the Greatest? Nope. Marus battle is with Rogue over 2nd place, that's how far off he is from No. 1 right now tbh
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On March 16 2024 13:16 Balnazza wrote:
First of all: Thank you Mizenhauer for the entire work, definetly a mammoth of a project.
That being said - yeah, no. Maru being the #1 while never being the #1 at any given time is just weird. He never was THE player, at no time at all. And please don't invoke the "recency bias" (love how we pretend like six years are "recent" btw...). If you remove recency, Marus resume becomes even more bleak.
Probably not even a Top 5 player in HotS, always at best number #2 in LotV just doesn't equal "Greatest Of All Time". And then missing the by far hardest competition to win, the World Championship title (or atleast a win at Katowice) just tops it off.
Maru is good. Scratch good, great. But the Greatest? Nope. Marus battle is with Rogue over 2nd place, that's how far off he is from No. 1 right now tbh
Maru was definitely number 1 for at least short times in 2013, 2015 and 2016. Along with the entire first half if not 7-8 months of 2018 and around Aug 2021-Jan 2022. His results during each of those stretches were the clear best even over Serral. Also between late 2022-early 2023 he was at least tied with Serral for #1. Aside from those times as the overall number 1 he's also been the best Terran almost forever while I'd argue Serral was occasionally surpassed by Rogue (2017- mid 2018 and end of 2021)/Reynor(many random blips)/Dark(second half of 2019).
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It is unacceptable. Not only switching the places of Serral and Maru, but also neglecting Drak as well. When this list first came out, I thought it was fair and interesting. However, it is almost a joke now.
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On March 16 2024 09:04 Branch.AUT wrote:
How do you even put maru at #1 after he got SMASHED 4-0 by serral, with 250k on the line? Like how can you think he is better?
Is it because he won the Global Starvation League so many times, when all other players were done competeing there???
First comment I saw. Hits the nail on the head for me.
I understand it is close between the two, but after that smackdown, this is just very unfortunate timing and also ill-advised from my point of view. That is the problem with GOAT-lists, they can change rather rapidly if several people are neck-and-neck.
Obviously, the hate is coming your way no matter who you put first.
The amount of work put into this list is still fantastic and I learned quite a bit. Good work!
+ Show Spoiler +Global Starvation League is such a great term for what is happening with GSL over the last few years
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Thank you so much for writing this series Mizenhauer. While I may disagree with some of the individual rankings (including these last 2), the actual writing was great.
It definitely shows in the writing how closely you rate Serral and Maru, and I respect that you put Maru 1st, despite my disagreement.
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Great write ups. I'm a big Maru fan. I also think you're sort of wrong, but only a little bit. I'd feel better about Maru being #1 if more of his dominance came in a period where players were hyper competitive. Unfortunately for most of this list, their dominance is largely in LotV, when there were way fewer players, and a way less competitive environment. Serral and Maru are pretty comparable, and Maru has the advantage of having good placements in KR leagues in HotS/early LoV, but both of them had their big breakthroughs in mid-late LotV, the weakest eras. I don't even care about Maru's last two GSL wins, they are equivalent to some weekend tournaments Taeja won back in the day to me. But Serral at least has been DEFINITIVELY the best for multiple years now, and its hard to contest with that. I have literally bet on Serral winning the global finals 6 years in a row now. I don't even care about Serral, but I can't argue with results!
I think Mvp, Innovation, Life were some of the few players that I felt were truly dominant during a truly competitive era. I really think Life would've been the GOAT if he didn't do that one thing he did. Hell, for all we know, some of the losses he does have could've just been thrown games. He might've been even better at the game than he appeared! Too bad huh? Innovation probably had the most meaningful dominance, winning a korean-heavy premiere every single year between 2013 and 2017. His biggest earning tournament was also one of his less impressive ones, winning a WECG for $150k in 2019, only needing to beat Serral, Maru, and Lambo.
Overall, I think a game like SC2, where expansions and everything change the game so much, are really hard to quantify and compare competitors for a "Greatest of All Time". It's not like BW, which has remained a mostly unchanged, gradually evolving game over 15 years. SC2 was a frequently changing, rapidly evolving game over 15 years, with competitiveness changing ontop of the game itself. How does one compare late LotV to peak HotS to early WoL? I think it's really challenging.
Thanks for all the write-ups though Miz. I think you did a good job. Also, please retcon Dark into the list, because he obviously should be there...... If not, then put Innovation as #1 please.
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While I do think they are close enough that it's fair to have some criteria where Maru is the GOAT, I don't really get how ranking MVP over INnoVation and Dark being snubbed is consistent with this. All signs pointed to Serral at the top because if Maru's career is enough to surpass the periods of domination by Serral, then INno's career should top MVP's. Dark should be highly rated and at the veeeery minimum ahead of Rain.
This ranking feels icky.
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On March 16 2024 13:35 JJH777 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2024 13:16 Balnazza wrote:
First of all: Thank you Mizenhauer for the entire work, definetly a mammoth of a project.
That being said - yeah, no. Maru being the #1 while never being the #1 at any given time is just weird. He never was THE player, at no time at all. And please don't invoke the "recency bias" (love how we pretend like six years are "recent" btw...). If you remove recency, Marus resume becomes even more bleak.
Probably not even a Top 5 player in HotS, always at best number #2 in LotV just doesn't equal "Greatest Of All Time". And then missing the by far hardest competition to win, the World Championship title (or atleast a win at Katowice) just tops it off.
Maru is good. Scratch good, great. But the Greatest? Nope. Marus battle is with Rogue over 2nd place, that's how far off he is from No. 1 right now tbh
Maru was definitely number 1 for at least short times in 2013, 2015 and 2016. Along with the entire first half if not 7-8 months of 2018 and around Aug 2021-Jan 2022. His results during each of those stretches were the clear best even over Serral. Also between late 2022-early 2023 he was at least tied with Serral for #1. Aside from those times as the overall number 1 he's also been the best Terran almost forever while I'd argue Serral was occasionally surpassed by Rogue (2017- mid 2018 and end of 2021)/Reynor(many random blips)/Dark(second half of 2019).
Of course I mean more substantial amounts of time. You could argue Clem was the best player in the world right after winning ESL Winter, but that's not saying much. 2018 is a bit sad for Maru, since he clearly was in probably the best shape of his career and dominated Korea, but there was always that asterisk "is he better than Serral?" Of course Serral had the same asterisk, probably even bigger. But one of them won the biggest tournament of the year, the other one crashed in it, so that answered itself.
I give him the 2021-22 span of like half a year of dominance...which then, as always with Maru, ended abruptly with an underwhelming World Championship.
Late 2022-23...he was definetly up there, but I wouldn't see that as "clear #1".
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On March 16 2024 12:26 Maestro85 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2024 11:38 AxiomB wrote:
I liken Maru to Federer and Serral to Djokovic. Yes Serral more than often not beats Maru, just as Djokovic more than often not beat Federer, but Maru has won almost as much as Serral and many in an era when the competition and game itself was at an all time high. There is also the 'Zerg Caveat' (Zerg being the race with the most broken units; banelings + cracklings). Maru just like Federer however has had the longest time at number 1 also. I can see arguments for either being number 1. GREAT write ups! Much appreciated! This is an excellent analogy and i agree with the sentiment (as well as Z having advantages that T and P do not) however Djokovic has spent more time than anyone as world No.1. And it is significantly more than Fed who has spent the 2nd longest time as No.1. Federer and Nadal would be a better comparison but that would have to ignore the existence of Djokovic
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_career_achievements_by_Roger_Federer
Forgive me, Djoko has more weeks at number 1, but not consecutive, Fed is number 1 for 237 consecutive weeks as world No. 1
I think the comparison is still holds though right?? Serral is Djoko and Maru is Federer <3
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On March 16 2024 15:28 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2024 13:35 JJH777 wrote:On March 16 2024 13:16 Balnazza wrote:
First of all: Thank you Mizenhauer for the entire work, definetly a mammoth of a project.
That being said - yeah, no. Maru being the #1 while never being the #1 at any given time is just weird. He never was THE player, at no time at all. And please don't invoke the "recency bias" (love how we pretend like six years are "recent" btw...). If you remove recency, Marus resume becomes even more bleak.
Probably not even a Top 5 player in HotS, always at best number #2 in LotV just doesn't equal "Greatest Of All Time". And then missing the by far hardest competition to win, the World Championship title (or atleast a win at Katowice) just tops it off.
Maru is good. Scratch good, great. But the Greatest? Nope. Marus battle is with Rogue over 2nd place, that's how far off he is from No. 1 right now tbh
Maru was definitely number 1 for at least short times in 2013, 2015 and 2016. Along with the entire first half if not 7-8 months of 2018 and around Aug 2021-Jan 2022. His results during each of those stretches were the clear best even over Serral. Also between late 2022-early 2023 he was at least tied with Serral for #1. Aside from those times as the overall number 1 he's also been the best Terran almost forever while I'd argue Serral was occasionally surpassed by Rogue (2017- mid 2018 and end of 2021)/Reynor(many random blips)/Dark(second half of 2019). Of course I mean more substantial amounts of time. You could argue Clem was the best player in the world right after winning ESL Winter, but that's not saying much. 2018 is a bit sad for Maru, since he clearly was in probably the best shape of his career and dominated Korea, but there was always that asterisk "is he better than Serral?" Of course Serral had the same asterisk, probably even bigger. But one of them won the biggest tournament of the year, the other one crashed in it, so that answered itself. I give him the 2021-22 span of like half a year of dominance...which then, as always with Maru, ended abruptly with an underwhelming World Championship. Late 2022-23...he was definetly up there, but I wouldn't see that as "clear #1".
Winning 1 event like Clem did isn't comparable to the periods I listed. In all of those periods Maru placed higher than Serral multiple times in a row and/or was dominant in GSL while Serral was struggling in other events. He beat Serral 3-0 in March 2018 with six figures on the line. Rogue won Katowice which is harder than Blizzcon. Maru clearly performed better for at least the first half of that year there was no question. Serral also lost to Scarlett, Elazer, and Soo in the first half of 2018. He wasn't a best in the world candidate until he won GSLvTW which wasn't until August.
From around Oct ish 2022 to April ish 2023 he finished equal or better than Serral in every event they both played in of which I believe there were 4 of them, ESL winter, Katowice, pigsty, and champions cup and he won both GSLs in that timespan as well. Since they never actually hit each other and Maru didn't win an international I didn't say clear #1 but I think he has to be at least considered tied with him for that 5-6 month stretch.
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Very well researched series - an accomplishment in itself, and a definitive piece articulating SC2 history.
Well-reasoned (and might I say courageous) decision to place Maru ahead of Serral. While Serral has gradually gained the upper-hand in head-to-head results vs. Maru, the question is "who is the GOAT" rather than "who is most likely to win today". The fact that Maru has overcome, to me, clear disadvantages in TvZ in recent years, to still win so much against the top Zergs is a clear indication of his greatness. Other points are already well articulated in the article.
To anyone who understands Terran play, it's hard to imagine any human being being able to take Terran to greater heights. As Maru ages and his wrists burn out, he inevitably slows down, but he is still able to give us the best, most entertaining games to enjoy.
Imagine a world where Maru never played SC2 - we would've lost so many legendary and memorable moments.
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It is a very close call, but over the course of the list I gravitated towards Maru stronger and stronger - I had some discussion with other people as well who started from the same point of view as I did ("Serral, no doubt") and most of them could see the point of Maru being active and a very strong player since 2010.
When I first started watching and playing SC2 in 2010 at age 14, Maru was already there. He was just a small name and only famous for being so so young, but he climbed up and won championships in Korea within fierce competition years before Serral became a dominant force.
While the sheer dominance, accomplishments and aura of Serral all make for a very compelling GOAT argument, I think it can go really either way. I don't have a problem with Maru being first, I wouldn't have a problem with Serral being first.
The argument about Serral having such a strong win record against him sounds a bit to me like
"Bayern beat Barcelona 8:2. they are the bigger club"
When infact, Barcas history runs much deeper and you would hardly argue that Barca is a bigger club in the history of football, even if for the past 10 years or so, Bayern has been stronger (and also been historically a force to be reckoned with).
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On March 16 2024 15:53 AxiomB wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2024 12:26 Maestro85 wrote:On March 16 2024 11:38 AxiomB wrote:
I liken Maru to Federer and Serral to Djokovic. Yes Serral more than often not beats Maru, just as Djokovic more than often not beat Federer, but Maru has won almost as much as Serral and many in an era when the competition and game itself was at an all time high. There is also the 'Zerg Caveat' (Zerg being the race with the most broken units; banelings + cracklings). Maru just like Federer however has had the longest time at number 1 also. I can see arguments for either being number 1. GREAT write ups! Much appreciated! This is an excellent analogy and i agree with the sentiment (as well as Z having advantages that T and P do not) however Djokovic has spent more time than anyone as world No.1. And it is significantly more than Fed who has spent the 2nd longest time as No.1. Federer and Nadal would be a better comparison but that would have to ignore the existence of Djokovic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_career_achievements_by_Roger_FedererForgive me, Djoko has more weeks at number 1, but not consecutive, Fed is number 1 for 237 consecutive weeks as world No. 1 I think the comparison is still holds though right?? Serral is Djoko and Maru is Federer <3
Good analogy. Sadly, some of Serral's online fans certainly present themselves in a manner similar to some of Djokovic's... more vocal... fans, making the analogy even more accurate.
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On March 16 2024 17:11 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2024 15:53 AxiomB wrote:On March 16 2024 12:26 Maestro85 wrote:On March 16 2024 11:38 AxiomB wrote:
I liken Maru to Federer and Serral to Djokovic. Yes Serral more than often not beats Maru, just as Djokovic more than often not beat Federer, but Maru has won almost as much as Serral and many in an era when the competition and game itself was at an all time high. There is also the 'Zerg Caveat' (Zerg being the race with the most broken units; banelings + cracklings). Maru just like Federer however has had the longest time at number 1 also. I can see arguments for either being number 1. GREAT write ups! Much appreciated! This is an excellent analogy and i agree with the sentiment (as well as Z having advantages that T and P do not) however Djokovic has spent more time than anyone as world No.1. And it is significantly more than Fed who has spent the 2nd longest time as No.1. Federer and Nadal would be a better comparison but that would have to ignore the existence of Djokovic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_career_achievements_by_Roger_FedererForgive me, Djoko has more weeks at number 1, but not consecutive, Fed is number 1 for 237 consecutive weeks as world No. 1 I think the comparison is still holds though right?? Serral is Djoko and Maru is Federer <3 Good analogy. Sadly, some of Serral's online fans certainly present themselves in a manner similar to some of Djokovic's... more vocal... fans, making the analogy even more accurate.
You can also switch Serral fans to Maru fans and it is still true.
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If you think gaming career time is an important criterion, then why isn't there Dark?
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A fitting end to a mental gymnastics list of the author's favorite players.
Recency bias is a bit of a meme when you have the same player dominating for 6 years now (not Maru).
Head to head stats are also in favor of 1 person.
But, nah, let's give it to Maru, it's the only international competition he's won in recent years.
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On March 16 2024 17:35 SINbg wrote:
A fitting end to a mental gymnastics list of the author's favorite players.
Recency bias is a bit of a meme when you have the same player dominating for 6 years now (not Maru).
Head to head stats are also in favor of 1 person.
But, nah, let's give it to Maru, it's the only international competition he's won in recent years.
You mean Serral has won 6 straight IEM/Blizzcon and all the regional tournament for the past 6 years? Damn thats dominating, sound unreal, right?
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Imagine crowning someone goat who is only good in domestic tournaments
Yes he is by a very far margin the Goat of KR
But as soon as he leaves home soil, he just colapses to a point where there is an entire thread to him choking in high stakes matches
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I enjoyed reading the articles more or less, but I still don't get why Dark doesn't get a spot in the top 10.
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Northern Ireland26676 Posts
I mean personally I’d go Serral > Maru but it’s hardly some outrage to have the inverse and the series has been a bloody good read to boot!
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EPT
