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Canada8989 Posts
On March 17 2024 05:26 jinjin5000 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2024 05:15 Nakajin wrote:On March 17 2024 04:58 jinjin5000 wrote:On March 17 2024 04:54 Nakajin wrote:On March 17 2024 04:39 jinjin5000 wrote:
while I think it wouldn't have been unfair for author to just put serral and maru at both #1 to avoid the shitfest right now on comment section, how come a lot of SC2 community isn't really taking BW-approach on these rankings where they discount results post-teamhouse era?
The same thing applies in BW; the general knowledge, meta and skill level rose a lot compared to Proleague era where game is nearly incomparable and everything is measured down to seconds nowadays, with meta evolving to counter the meta constantly every few weeks due to condensed progamer circle and sharing of knowledge
However, everyone recognizes that the amount of competition/cycle/dedicated coaching or sniping builds are incomparable compared to proleague era as of now, as amount of resources dedicated to each player and level of competition is just way less now, so results post-teamhouse era are counted with grain of salt even if the "now" player would wipe floor with "past" player; after all, the peak competition and mechanical skill was back in proleague era.
Flash mentioned that if "modern" player were timetravelled back into past, they would win most of the game vs past player due to just difference in knowledge/skill. But the past player would just adapt due to being used to the amount of competition and sheer mechanical skill during that era, so you cannot compare past achievements with current.
after proleague went down, a lot of SC2 Korean pro players are not under same amount of pressure/passion for game after and are really in no way in their peak. The amount of progamers lessened a lot, and there are a whole lot less expectations placed on them. It's not really fair to compare peak competition era to post 2017 era really just due to sheer difference in environment where SC2 doesn't really offer an attractive environment for Korean progamers to keep going. The two aren't comparable. Sure teahouses and proleague stopped and a lot of progamer retired, there's no denying the field became a lot is tinner. But SC2 competition was (and arguably still is) very much alive. Post 2017 is also when there was the most amount of money, to earn. Maru, Dark and Rogue became millionaires in their post-Kespa days, it's not BW where's there barely 100k$ a year up for grabs. We talk about retirement, but there is way less retirement post-2017 compared to the 2011-2016 period, on the contrary, we see players stick with SC2 all the way to military for the first time since it finally makes sense to have it as a long time commitment. Well tbf, for BW side, there's still incentive for them to keep up competition on streaming (even if it transitioned into personality streams) in forms of major proleague and 1v1 spons which make up sizable part of the income. You can say its bit comparative in that department where both games have forms of serious competition/playing for prize money. I can't say I'm very versed into the streamer-proleague world of BW, but my understanding is that it's more players and streamers playing showmatches so that everyone make money after after a couple weeks/months, am I far off? I think from the outside looking in, it can be easy to think SC2 players don't practice since it's way less visible than before, but I'd be curious to know if practice time truly fell off by that much. For example, just a couple of years back in 2021, Zest played almost 900 professional matches on top of a shit-ton of ladder, that's some Kespa-level workload if I've ever seen one. I think its quite similar in sense that both sides are playing competitive games but w/o teamhouse infrastructure supporting them and both scenes don't have new blood coming in, lessening the overall competition/pressure. Both games have very limited pro-player pool exacerbating to this issue. SC2, you have online tournaments and foreign tournaments, but you no longer have the benefit of teamhouse support with dedicated coaching team and competition level as well as facing opponents who prepared specifically vs them with teamhouse support behind them. BW, you have progamers splitting between competitive 1v1, proleague format and streaming/non-competitive content. They also no longer have dedicated team behind them keeping their shape up, but is compensated by faster revolving meta due to sharing knowledge and all, but its quite clear that they are not at their peak mechanically wise. Even with number of games, it's quite comparable with someone like light in BW roughly playing 1527 competitive spon games last 1 year with 580 games of it being major proleague, not counting their practice games. I think both scenes have quite comparable levels of competitive games going on, with BW having bit less since they also split time to focusing on streaming content and SC2 progamers not streaming much at all, but self-employment/motivation thing applies to both imo, as well as limited competitiveness in scene and player pool. both SC2 and SC1 progamers use customs using their own connections/friends to practice their own preparation for tournaments when they are preparing seriously off-stream, and both sides use ladder as filler in-between which isn't the best practice environment comapred to dedicated customs/teamhouse environment
Good points, I get where you are coming from. I'm still not ready at all to discard post 2016 results though.
I think it's because in SC2, even at the peak of the Kespa, we've always had players compete and get to a very high level outside of teamhouses while in BW everything was funneled into the Kespa system so the demarcation is bigger.
I'm not saying there isn't a big pre-post Kespa shutdown, but for me, it was just a transformation of the environment players had to adapt to rather than the end of the competitive era.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
Well, the drama produced from this 2 punch is truly hilarious.
But the inconsistency between "Maru and Serral ended up really close" and "Katowice outcome wouldn't affect the placings" really needs cleaning up.
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Thank you Mizenhauer for the great series of articles ! Please tell me there is a follow up, I want more ..
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farming gsl without serral in it makes him #1, apparently.
no dark. no reynor. literally won millions. instead we have rain, soo, sos.
someone tell the creator of this that 2011-2015 is just as long of a time period as 2020-2024.
absolute joke of a list, absolutely lacking knowledge of results and meaning.
Dark is -clearly- top 6.
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France12911 Posts
On March 17 2024 06:22 KalWarkov wrote:
farming gsl without serral in it makes him #1, apparently.
no dark. no reynor. literally won millions. instead we have rain, soo, sos.
someone tell the creator of this that 2011-2015 is just as long of a time period as 2020-2024.
absolute joke of a list, absolutely lacking knowledge of results and meaning.
Dark is -clearly- top 6.
How sOs being in there is that surprising, given his WC record?
Rain being there is the only « hot » choice imo, since Dark indeed has a strong case
soO being #7 isn’t that surprising imo, he had a lot of 2nd place in the strongest era and a WC win.
INno behind mvp is imo the most shocking thing in this ranking
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Canada8989 Posts
On March 17 2024 06:25 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2024 06:22 KalWarkov wrote:
farming gsl without serral in it makes him #1, apparently.
no dark. no reynor. literally won millions. instead we have rain, soo, sos.
someone tell the creator of this that 2011-2015 is just as long of a time period as 2020-2024.
absolute joke of a list, absolutely lacking knowledge of results and meaning.
Dark is -clearly- top 6. How sOs being in there is that surprising, given his WC record? Rain being there is the only « hot » choice imo, since Dark indeed has a strong case soO being #7 isn’t that surprising imo, he had a lot of 2nd place in the strongest era and a WC win. INno behind mvp is imo the most shocking thing in this ranking
If it was me I think I'd have Rain-TY-soO out and like Dark-MC and MMA in, but there are always heartbreakes every way we choose.
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On March 17 2024 06:04 PixelNite wrote:
Thank you Mizenhauer for the great series of articles ! Please tell me there is a follow up, I want more ..
He said there would be blog posts about players that were left out, most notably Dark, so keep an eye out for those
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On March 17 2024 06:59 Durnuu wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2024 06:04 PixelNite wrote:
Thank you Mizenhauer for the great series of articles ! Please tell me there is a follow up, I want more .. He said there would be blog posts about players that were left out, most notably Dark, so keep an eye out for those
I want honorable mentions on Dark, Byun, Reynor, Trap, Stats, herO, Classic, Gumiho, Parting and Olivera who didn't make into the top 10 ranking. They should be within top 20. I personally exclude those who retired at pre-LOTV eras.
My ranking in ascending order: Dark, Reynor, Byun, Stats, herO, Trap...
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On March 17 2024 06:22 KalWarkov wrote:
farming gsl without serral in it makes him #1, apparently.
no dark. no reynor. literally won millions. instead we have rain, soo, sos.
someone tell the creator of this that 2011-2015 is just as long of a time period as 2020-2024.
absolute joke of a list, absolutely lacking knowledge of results and meaning.
Dark is -clearly- top 6.
It's the same amount of time but with 150 less fulltime pros, almost no new blood, and most top Koreans being in and out military service.
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Dark should be at least #9 over TY and Rain.
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France12911 Posts
I am quite surprised that people are this upset with the list.
Sure, I knew most foreigners were biased towards Serral, but even I as a Maru fan, would be ok with any of Maru, Serral or Rogue at #1 since they clearly have the best case among every player.
It’s already an incredible achievement to be considered #2 goat despite only being « relevant » since 2017, to be frank.
Most people on Reddit and Twitter are upset that Serral isn’t #1, only some people here on tl are upset that Dark isn’t there (which is imo the really surprising thing, alongside Rain at #10)
Even though I would have been fine with Maru being #3 or #2, I am quite happy that he managed to get 1st here
Most people in the foreign scene will think Serral is GOAT and this list won’t change that, but maybe Maru will reflect back on his career in ten years and won’t be as hard on himself as he seems to be
Truly the player who gave me the most emotions in StarCraft, heck in any esport game. What a blessing to have been able to see him play in so many tournaments
I consider myself incredibly lucky to have got his autograph
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Maru has a decade of tournament wins including OSLs and GSLs, as well as across different expansions. He is the goat because he was the best across different eras
edit: I now believe Serral is
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On March 17 2024 05:01 Cactus66 wrote:
LONG time reader. Had to create an account because how ridiculous this is.
GSL hasn't had the best player in the world play in it since 2018........ it's 2024.
There have been 18 GSL's in that time. Maru won 7. Doesn't seem like the most prestigious wins if the best player in the world wasn't in the tournament.
There were two GSL vs the World in that time. I'm sure the guy who went 2 for 2 on those wouldn't have been able to win one or two of those 18 GSL's if he had decided he wanted to play in them.
Ask the pros who'd they'd rather play against in the final of the world championship for a few hundred thousand dollars? Good luck finding one that says they'd rather play serral.
So you're saying the reason Maru can't the Goat is because he isn't the best right now?
I swear people don't know what Goat stands for
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On March 17 2024 08:46 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2024 05:01 Cactus66 wrote:
LONG time reader. Had to create an account because how ridiculous this is.
GSL hasn't had the best player in the world play in it since 2018........ it's 2024.
There have been 18 GSL's in that time. Maru won 7. Doesn't seem like the most prestigious wins if the best player in the world wasn't in the tournament.
There were two GSL vs the World in that time. I'm sure the guy who went 2 for 2 on those wouldn't have been able to win one or two of those 18 GSL's if he had decided he wanted to play in them.
Ask the pros who'd they'd rather play against in the final of the world championship for a few hundred thousand dollars? Good luck finding one that says they'd rather play serral. So you're saying the reason Maru can't the Goat is because he isn't the best right now? I swear people don't know what Goat stands for
Maru's never been better than serral's current form.
Which means he's not the greatest of all time, no?
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Pfffft, come on. The anti-foreigner bias is glaring here.
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On March 17 2024 08:47 InfCereal wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2024 08:46 Charoisaur wrote:On March 17 2024 05:01 Cactus66 wrote:
LONG time reader. Had to create an account because how ridiculous this is.
GSL hasn't had the best player in the world play in it since 2018........ it's 2024.
There have been 18 GSL's in that time. Maru won 7. Doesn't seem like the most prestigious wins if the best player in the world wasn't in the tournament.
There were two GSL vs the World in that time. I'm sure the guy who went 2 for 2 on those wouldn't have been able to win one or two of those 18 GSL's if he had decided he wanted to play in them.
Ask the pros who'd they'd rather play against in the final of the world championship for a few hundred thousand dollars? Good luck finding one that says they'd rather play serral. So you're saying the reason Maru can't the Goat is because he isn't the best right now? I swear people don't know what Goat stands for Maru's never been better than serral's current form. Which means he's not the greatest of all time, no?
I'm eager to hear how you compare player skill across different eras
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Canada8989 Posts
On March 17 2024 08:01 Poopi wrote:
I am quite surprised that people are this upset with the list.
Sure, I knew most foreigners were biased towards Serral, but even I as a Maru fan, would be ok with any of Maru, Serral or Rogue at #1 since they clearly have the best case among every player.
It’s already an incredible achievement to be considered #2 goat despite only being « relevant » since 2017, to be frank.
Most people on Reddit and Twitter are upset that Serral isn’t #1, only some people here on tl are upset that Dark isn’t there (which is imo the really surprising thing, alongside Rain at #10)
Even though I would have been fine with Maru being #3 or #2, I am quite happy that he managed to get 1st here
Most people in the foreign scene will think Serral is GOAT and this list won’t change that, but maybe Maru will reflect back on his career in ten years and won’t be as hard on himself as he seems to be
Truly the player who gave me the most emotions in StarCraft, heck in any esport game. What a blessing to have been able to see him play in so many tournaments
I consider myself incredibly lucky to have got his autograph
One does one venture into a GOAT debate without brining upon himself the fury of thousands I imagine.
I wish people would take more time to read the articles and watch the games. It's truly some fine work we got, I mean the man dug us a photo of Serral in a tuxedo-sailor hat attire!
There's no nead for all this name calling and whatnot, especially on Reddit. If you don't agree with the final listing, at least we have some good articles about fine players. The ones about Mvp and Inno were my favorite personnaly.
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On March 17 2024 07:55 JJH777 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2024 06:22 KalWarkov wrote:
farming gsl without serral in it makes him #1, apparently.
no dark. no reynor. literally won millions. instead we have rain, soo, sos.
someone tell the creator of this that 2011-2015 is just as long of a time period as 2020-2024.
absolute joke of a list, absolutely lacking knowledge of results and meaning.
Dark is -clearly- top 6. It's the same amount of time but with 150 less fulltime pros, almost no new blood, and most top Koreans being in and out military service.
I don't understand why people refuse to acknowledge this fact.
The game's esports scene is a shadow of what it used to be. Maru would have made the GOAT list even before he started winning his 4 GSL titles in a row because he had a terrific career even back in the earlier days. The fact he's as dominant as he is now AND he had such a good career in the earlier and more competitive eras of the game is why he gets the nod. It's not hard to figure out.
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On March 17 2024 08:47 InfCereal wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2024 08:46 Charoisaur wrote:On March 17 2024 05:01 Cactus66 wrote:
LONG time reader. Had to create an account because how ridiculous this is.
GSL hasn't had the best player in the world play in it since 2018........ it's 2024.
There have been 18 GSL's in that time. Maru won 7. Doesn't seem like the most prestigious wins if the best player in the world wasn't in the tournament.
There were two GSL vs the World in that time. I'm sure the guy who went 2 for 2 on those wouldn't have been able to win one or two of those 18 GSL's if he had decided he wanted to play in them.
Ask the pros who'd they'd rather play against in the final of the world championship for a few hundred thousand dollars? Good luck finding one that says they'd rather play serral. So you're saying the reason Maru can't the Goat is because he isn't the best right now? I swear people don't know what Goat stands for Maru's never been better than serral's current form. Which means he's not the greatest of all time, no?
That's not how GOAT lists work.
That's like saying Nikola Jokic is the greatest basketball player of all time because he's the best now and has the best all time advanced stats.
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EPT
