EPT#1: Maru - Greatest Players of All Time - Page 44
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ejozl
Denmark3347 Posts
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Perceivere
131 Posts
On June 04 2024 22:55 ejozl wrote: It's crazy to me that Maru had 14 years and still haven't won a tournament outside of Asia. While MVP, Life and Serral won 2 triple crowns within around 2 years. He came very close once. 3-4 score vs | ||
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Argonauta
Spain4906 Posts
On June 04 2024 22:55 ejozl wrote: It's crazy to me that Maru had 14 years and still haven't won a tournament outside of Asia. While MVP, Life and Serral won 2 triple crowns within around 2 years. Worth mentioning that 2021 Maru was damm strong and winning equivalent titles to this years' Dallas. For example: DH Last chance 2022 and the DH winter season finals 2021. Sadly all those tournaments were online due to covid. Perhaps one can say that if offline, results may have differ, but we will never know that. Edit: Also mention that, before this new format that ESL came with. Measurig Maru success in WOL and HOTs and even the early LOTV by winning/participating in events outside of Korea has a different meaning than now. | ||
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Perceivere
131 Posts
On June 05 2024 00:13 Argonauta wrote: Worth mentioning that 2021 Maru was damm strong and winning equivalent titles to this years' Dallas. For example: DH Last chance 2022 and the DH winter season finals 2021. Sadly all those tournaments were online due to covid. Perhaps one can say that if offline, results may have differ, but we will never know that. Edit: Also mention that, before this new format that ESL came with. Measurig Maru success in WOL and HOTs and even the early LOTV by winning/participating in events outside of Korea has a different meaning than now. Ain't that funny, tho... I've seen some people say that ping favors zerg, when the one global premiere Maru won was online. Moreover, his online record vs Serral is also much better than his offline record vs Serral. Who does ping favor, really? Hmmmmmmmmmmm.... | ||
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PremoBeats
337 Posts
On June 04 2024 02:00 Tanukki wrote: Maru was the top player for a longer period of time in a more competitive scene. I guess that's what is meant here by "greatest of all time". I do, however, assume that current top pros are better than past top pros. At the top, there's still plenty of competition, they have more experience, and builds are more refined due to the longer balance patch cycle. So Serral would be the "most skilled of all time", but that's another story. Most of Maru's titles (except 2 iirc) are from 2018 onwards, which is the same time that Serral's title collecting began. So Maru was mostly the top Korean during the same time Serral was top of the world. It took Serral less time to accumulate more PT wins with top Korean participation, not counting the PT wins where only non-Koreans played. Plus, his win rates and overall statistics versus top Korean players are much better than any other players, including Koreans. | ||
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Argonauta
Spain4906 Posts
On June 05 2024 06:34 PremoBeats wrote: Most of Maru's titles (except 2 iirc) are from 2018 onwards, which is the same time that Serral's title collecting began. So Maru was mostly the top Korean during the same time Serral was top of the world. It took Serral less time to accumulate more PT wins with top Korean participation, not counting the PT wins where only non-Koreans played. Plus, his win rates and overall statistics versus top Korean players are much better than any other players, including Koreans. According to the script now is when I have to remind you that previous the Kespa colapse, the competition was deeper and therefore was harder than now to win championships.... See? We are all walking on circles about the same arguments over and over... what we need is more good tournaments to be held more often, so we can admire good SC2 while we argue endlessly about goats and herders. | ||
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PremoBeats
337 Posts
On June 05 2024 06:44 Argonauta wrote: According to the script now is when I have to remind you that previous the Kespa colapse, the competition was deeper and therefore was harder than now to win championships.... See? We are all walking on circles about the same arguments over and over... what we need is more good tournaments to be held more often, so we can admire good SC2 while we argue endlessly about goats and herders. Yeah, but my point is, that all top 3 people in this list mostly gathered their tournament wins in the same era. So unless people present other names than Serral, Rogue and Maru as GOAT, this Kespa argument doesn't make sense. Comparing these three means: Serral won more titles with top Korean participation in a shorter period of time, while having much better statistics (win rates, results, etc.) than the other two... only looking at games versus Koreans, not including non-Koreans players or region-locked tournaments. | ||
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Argonauta
Spain4906 Posts
On June 05 2024 06:46 PremoBeats wrote: Yeah, but my point is, that all top 3 people in this list mostly gathered their tournament wins in the same era. So unless people present other names than Serral, Rogue and Maru as GOAT, this Kespa argument doesn't make sense. Comparing these three means: Serral won more titles with top Korean participation in a shorter period of time, while having much better statistics (win rates, results, etc.) than the other two... only looking at games versus Koreans, not including non-Koreans players or region-locked tournaments. Again, the idea is that previous the Kespa collapse, 1 or 2 tournaments were a looooooot and Maru was considered for certain periods the best Terran in the world (people were not talking as often as the best overall player) due to his results in both proleague (which was a huuuge deal) and individual results. After the kespa collapse, yes, Maru, Serral and Rogue have been accumulating trophies at high rates, but again, overall shallower player roster is on place. | ||
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b0rt_
Norway931 Posts
On June 04 2024 20:11 Zergiica wrote: this GOAT thread aged badly. i hope TL will change it for it's own reputation. Reputation lol, seven more 4-0's and they might consider it. Or Serral morphing into a Korean terran. | ||
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Balnazza
Germany1126 Posts
On June 05 2024 07:02 Argonauta wrote: Again, the idea is that previous the Kespa collapse, 1 or 2 tournaments were a looooooot and Maru was considered for certain periods the best Terran in the world (people were not talking as often as the best overall player) due to his results in both proleague (which was a huuuge deal) and individual results. After the kespa collapse, yes, Maru, Serral and Rogue have been accumulating trophies at high rates, but again, overall shallower player roster is on place. If you had asked in 2015, 2016 or 2017 "Who is the best Terran of all time" no one would have said Maru. The discussion would have boiled down to "has Innovation done enough to outrank Mvp?" Maru was good, but he wasn't near the top pre-2018 with "just" two Starleagues. Marus legacy is 90% based on post-2016 results. If he had quit his career 2016/17, Mizenhauer probably wouldn't have even put him in this Top 10. | ||
Mizenhauer
United States1840 Posts
On June 05 2024 07:34 Balnazza wrote: If you had asked in 2015, 2016 or 2017 "Who is the best Terran of all time" no one would have said Maru. The discussion would have boiled down to "has Innovation done enough to outrank Mvp?" Maru was good, but he wasn't near the top pre-2018 with "just" two Starleagues. Marus legacy is 90% based on post-2016 results. If he had quit his career 2016/17, Mizenhauer probably wouldn't have even put him in this Top 10. People didn't expect players to win every single event back then. If someone won a KIL and a couple of other things in the same year they were one of the most successful players in the world . As far as "just two Starleagues", Mvp and Inno were the only people to have won three times at the end of 2017. Maru being in a tie for third place isn't all that bad. In my opinion, there are eight players competing for the honor of "Top five player during Hots". INnoVation, sOs, Life, herO, Maru, soO, Zest and Rain. Maru's success during that stage of his career and his excellent Proleague results are a big reason why I had Maru first. There are many things that Serral can claim that Maru cannot, but Maru has been a top 5 player (for the majority) of the last 12 years. How you value those extra years plays a massive role in determining which of the two you consider GOAT. | ||
Poopi
France12771 Posts
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Mizenhauer
United States1840 Posts
On June 05 2024 08:10 Poopi wrote: Adding to the comment above, I don't really understand how some people (there is probably an intersection, targeting no one in particular) can put Life as their GOAT, and having Serral > Maru. Since Maru was also particularly successful during Life's period of dominance, was also a young prodigy / royal roader, but we got to see him reinvent himself and founding success again in LotV. So if you have Life as your GOAT (thus Life > Serral), Serral > Maru feels pretty strange. We didn't get to see if Life would have kept being successful in the long run, while we saw Maru have ups and downs for a loooong time. There was some mildly interesting stuff in that WC Standing thing I wrote that got buried including... Life, Rain, INnoVation, sOs and Maru are the only players to rank among the Top 16 during all three years of Heart of the Swarm. Their average finish across those three years are 6.6, 7.3, 4.3, 9 and 6.3 respectively. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24944 Posts
On June 04 2024 20:11 Zergiica wrote: this GOAT thread aged badly. i hope TL will change it for it's own reputation. Maybe folks could just get over it? | ||
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lokol4890
107 Posts
On June 04 2024 23:04 Perceivere wrote: He came very close once. 3-4 score vs Reynor. He made it into the grand finals 3 times? To me, that's even better than 1 win with all other attempts complete failures where he doesn't even get into 3rd/4th place. A win isn't really all it's cracked up to me. Double/triple 2nd placement is pretty damn impressive. That said, not only has Serral won 3 times, he did it dominantly, and placed 3rd/4th 3 times (in 3 other WC/IEM), and 5 times if you count WESG. I personally count WESG, because he bagged $40k from each of those 3rd/4th placements at WESG. He also got close against life at an iem (3-4) a long time ago. He just can't close the deal for some reason. Can get close but can't quite get the dub | ||
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Starcloud
137 Posts
Nah, that would be too "adult" thing to do and boring. We should try to have these discussions after every single tournament to keep things "fresh" ! On more serious note, it would be welcomed if people did so. However in the internet people have hard time understanding that this list is a one persons well educated opinion, not the definitive truth about the state of things. The most important thing about arguing in the internet is "being right". And if you are not in the same boat as the people "being right", you are an enemy of the state that needs to be corrected and shamed publicly. And in any argument you also cant change your opinion at any case, because then you are also a traitor, heretic and a low-life creature at the same time. Easy, isnt it ?  But well, this never-ending circle will propably continue as long as SC2 will be alive. Its not just a bad thing though. It tells you that there is still very many passionate Starcraft- fans out there, and hopefully we can enjoy this game at least little bit longer with many good games coming by. Oh, almost forgot; Serral is the GOAT ! But you didnt count the PRO-league stuff ? Or 10+ years in tour ? Or GSL:s ? Yeah, but Maru NEVER wins Offline-tournaments !! Cant beat Serral !! .... Carry on :p | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24944 Posts
On June 05 2024 08:55 Starcloud wrote: Nah, that would be too "adult" thing to do and boring. We should try to have these discussions after every single tournament to keep things "fresh" ! On more serious note, it would be welcomed if people did so. However in the internet people have hard time understanding that this list is a one persons well educated opinion, not the definitive truth about the state of things. The most important thing about arguing in the internet is "being right". And if you are not in the same boat as the people "being right", you are an enemy of the state that needs to be corrected and shamed publicly. And in any argument you also cant change your opinion at any case, because then you are also a traitor, heretic and a low-life creature at the same time. Easy, isnt it ? But well, this never-ending circle will propably continue as long as SC2 will be alive. Its not just a bad thing though. It tells you that there is still very many passionate Starcraft- fans out there, and hopefully we can enjoy this game at least little bit longer with many good games coming by. Oh, almost forgot; Serral is the GOAT ! But you didnt count the PRO-league stuff ? Or 10+ years in tour ? Or GSL:s ? Yeah, but Maru NEVER wins Offline-tournaments !! Cant beat Serral !! .... Carry on :p It’s not a difficult concept, and plenty of regulars on TL have disagreed with the list. Hell it irks me god knows how Miz holds it together having actually written the thing. Many come over and haven’t actually read any of it bar the placings. By all means come over and actually join the conversation, always good to see more regular Liquidians rather than low effort fanboyism | ||
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Perceivere
131 Posts
On June 05 2024 08:42 lokol4890 wrote: He also got close against life at an iem (3-4) a long time ago. He just can't close the deal for some reason. Can get close but can't quite get the dub I had to edit my post. It was TY, not Reynor. That series against Life was a Taipei event, and also ancient history. I personally don't value WoL and HotS competition nearly as much as some others here. I don't think Maru "chokes." To me, that's just some bullshit excuse people have been making up to excuse his losses as merely being him performing below his average level. He had a close match with TY, who was a TvT god. There's no "choking" in there whatsoever. He at least placed 2nd after losing to Oliveira, who by his and his peers' account, was training to the point of hospitalization for that win. IEM 2020 and IEM 2018 he lost to Rogue in close 2-3 matches. Rogue. The guy with the best offline match winrate vs Koreans, after Serral. (per aligulac) Overall, he has three 3rd-4th placements in IEM finals, two 2nds in two IEMs, one 2nd in a WESG that net him $100k, and he won a WESG in 2017 that net him $200k. If that is "choking," then most pro players would give a kidney to choke that hard. People just want to invent bullshit excuses for when he loses. The reality is that Maru had almost always performed at his normal level, with ups and downs (like everybody else), in global offlines. He's bombed out of IEM groupstage and Dreamhack once, and that was his only truly poor performances outside of Korea. Some of his fans are just trying to excuse his losses. Maru doesn't choke. Those losses to Serral can easily be explained away by stylistic mismatch (aside from Serral just being a freak of nature). Maru isn't Clem. He made mistakes, sure. Serral, more than anyone else, pressures his opponents to make mistakes. | ||
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Argonauta
Spain4906 Posts
On June 05 2024 07:34 Balnazza wrote: If you had asked in 2015, 2016 or 2017 "Who is the best Terran of all time" no one would have said Maru. The discussion would have boiled down to "has Innovation done enough to outrank Mvp?" Maru was good, but he wasn't near the top pre-2018 with "just" two Starleagues. Marus legacy is 90% based on post-2016 results. If he had quit his career 2016/17, Mizenhauer probably wouldn't have even put him in this Top 10. Sure, but no one is denying results post 2017 exists. They do and they matter a lot, that is why Serral goes from nothing to 2nd spot in the list and Maru goes from 13th in the previous GOAT list to 1st. What I am arguing is that is unfair to just ignore any pre 2016 result or to judge them by today's state of affairs. And again, I cant believe we are going on circles with the same chain of arguments. | ||
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PremoBeats
337 Posts
On June 05 2024 07:02 Argonauta wrote: Again, the idea is that previous the Kespa collapse, 1 or 2 tournaments were a looooooot and Maru was considered for certain periods the best Terran in the world (people were not talking as often as the best overall player) due to his results in both proleague (which was a huuuge deal) and individual results. After the kespa collapse, yes, Maru, Serral and Rogue have been accumulating trophies at high rates, but again, overall shallower player roster is on place. Fair enough and that is probably where it will always end. After all, the definitions of GOAT can be subjective... Cambridge says: "GOAT. Used to refer to or describe the person who has performed better than anyone else ever, especially in a sport" wiki: "Greatest of All Time is a term used to describe something or someone who is considered the best in a certain category and frequently used in popular lists of superlatives. It is typically abbreviated as G.O.A.T." Oxford: "the best person ever in a particular field, especially a sport (the abbreviation for ‘greatest of all time’)" To me, being best needs to accomplish two things: Dominance and duration. For example... if someone has 2 super dominant years, but nothing more, you can't be the GOAT. You are like a shining star that shines brightly for a short period, but then fades away. Duration is lacking. On the other hand, if you'd come in mostly as 2nd or 3rd over several years, no one would consider you GOAT as you would lack dominance. Thus, when I put together my list, I had minimum requirements set up. Rogue, Maru and Serral all clear these minimum requirements, but there is only one player that brutally stands out when it comes to dominance. And this is made clear by that players statistics versus other top players with NO equal or negative record versus anyone he played at least 10 times. And I perfectly get, that some will put Maru over Serral. They value his super long career over the unmatched dominance Serral has and that is completely fine. But to me, GOAT - in accordance with the definitions posted above - means someone who performs better than anyone else. And Maru wasn't doing that pre 2018 imo (where he "only" has 2 1st and 2 2nd places in Premier Tournaments like many others on this list, as well as a couple of other players having way more PT wins in the same time span that Maru played). And in 2018 and following, Serral clearly stands out and was outperforming everyone else massively. As Maru, Rogue and Serral are mostly viewed as the three top contenders (and rightfully so imo) one can divide their achievements into pre- and post-2018. Serral and Rogue have none, Maru claims 2 PT wins in a time frame of roughly 6 years. But he was never the best pre-2018 as there were other players who accumulated much more PT wins and/or had better records versus the top Koreans. After 2018 he was only the best player in Korea, as Serral outperformed him in tournaments with top Korean participation, as well as records versus individual players or win rates vs top Koreans. So he was never the best, in neither time period.. the only argument that can be made for Maru, thus logically is duration. But to me, someone who never was the best, cannot be GOAT. It simply does not fit the definition. Serral on the other hand has enough duration to make the claim and dominated like no one else before him. There is no Innovation who has a positive record against him, like he does against Maru. There are no Darks or herOs with which Serral has a rivalry of nearly equal win records. Every Pro, Serral played regularly, has a negative record versus Serral. The closest score is versus Rogue at 8:6 for Serral. That to me is a GOAT. Someone who put himself out for a long enough period of time, to play the best of the best time and again, beat them and claim the big trophies. Maru further failed also with international competition. He wins GSL after GSL, but when the best of the world show up, he never made it work to push through to the end, although he tried countless times. Again... this does not fit the GOAT title. EDIT: And please don't misunderstand me... I don't think this has anything to do with Serral's recent finals wins versus Maru which put him on a 15:4 record versus him. This alone could be attributed to play style or race imbalances. But Serral dominated everyone, also the people that come out of the Kespa era like Innovation (15:3), Zest (9:4), TY (6:1), Trap (14:3), Zoun (5:1), PartinG (5:0), soO (8:3), Solar (16:7) or Stats (9:4). EDIT2: To showcase Serral's dominance, I copy pasted my latest reply from the #2 thread: Serral's match win rate versus top Koreans... 2018: 85,71% 2019: 76,67% 2020: 85,71% 2021: 70,31% 2022: 73,68% 2023: 85,11% I want to point out that an above 70% match win rate vs top Koreans was only achieved by a handful of players. Serral 6x, Maru 5x, MVP 2x, Dark 1x, herO 1x, sOs 1x (could be that I missed someone while analyzing the data... if so, let me know). But Serral did it in EVERY year he played the game seriously after finishing school. Over 80% match win rate was only achieved by Serral.... 3 times!! If Serral keeps up his performance in 2024, he will be the only player to go over 90% (he stands at 90.30% atm), while most pros can't even get above 70%... the dominance is utterly ridiculous. He further is the only player to have game win rate of above 70% - to be specific 73,24% in 2023 (atm he stands at 86,84% in 2024, while no other player ever came above 70% in the past). I don't know if people are even able to comprehend what these numbers mean. They are utterly nuts. | ||
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