On June 04 2024 22:55 ejozl wrote: It's crazy to me that Maru had 14 years and still haven't won a tournament outside of Asia. While MVP, Life and Serral won 2 triple crowns within around 2 years.
Thats the thing.
Those 3 are real cowboys. Maru's excellence is geographically limited, which doesnt go along with GOAT status, for me.
Also, his greatest achivement - g8L - doesnt comprehend his greatest nemesis - whom he had multiple times to topple and failed. So, no donut for him, i'd say.
Maru has made more ro4/finals in World Championship events (Blizzcon/Katowice) than any other player, including Serral, Rogue, Mvp, yet that doesn't count as 'excellence'.
It's a bit sad that in his community anything less than a championship doesn't count towards someone's legacy.
Like, if Serral actually played in GSL, made top 4/finals consistently, but never won, it would lessen his career in the eyes of many fans. Despite the fact that would be a fantastic achievement on anyone's list.
If you ain’t first then you’re last. No one remembers losers or participation ribbons.
We remember Maru for his GSL’s in Korea, at the same time we remember him as a choker outside of Korea.
Serral would win more GSL’s than Maru winning ESL’s if they switch places
Serral never tested in preparation format of offline premier tournament involving at least three or four weeks stay in that location of tournament. We never know how he will react when someone pickup him as opponent in the group stage or how his opponents will prepare against him because he just makes a first attempt so he will be unseeded. Out of all foreigners competing in GSL, only Neeb, Scarlett, Special and Reynor had experience this kind of things while Serral has never done it yet. So it is kind of premature thing to predict what happens unless he tries first.
Much of weekender tournaments Serral participating comes from his right as the first seed (and also bracket luck unfortunately) so he has more access to be matched against a lower seed opponent.
I find this prep tournament argument not very strong given the smaller pool of truly competitive players. Sure, you don't know for sure who will be the opponent you are facing in the grand final of IEM but from the perspective of Maru, who are your biggest threats? Serral of course. Maybe herO, Dark, Reynor and Clem come next. You don't have 2 weeks to prepare specifically for one opponent but you have all year around to prepare for your toughest opponents. There's no way Korean pros are only prepping for their group stage opponents and leave prep for Serral only when it's confirmed they will be playing him.
Serral would win more GSL’s than Maru winning ESL’s if they switch places
Serral never tested in preparation format of offline premier tournament involving at least three or four weeks stay in that location of tournament. We never know how he will react when someone pickup him as opponent in the group stage or how his opponents will prepare against him because he just makes a first attempt so he will be unseeded. Out of all foreigners competing in GSL, only Neeb, Scarlett, Special and Reynor had experience this kind of things while Serral has never done it yet. So it is kind of premature thing to predict what happens unless he tries first.
Much of weekender tournaments Serral participating comes from his right as the first seed (and also bracket luck unfortunately) so he has more access to be matched against a lower seed opponent.
Well he is the best there is. Why wouldn't he be seeded as first seed? Every sport on the planet does this
And what bracket luck are you talking about? Serral is cruising past everyone anyway as he has proven time and time again
On June 06 2024 18:35 ktll4c91 wrote: I find this prep tournament argument not very strong given the smaller pool of truly competitive players. Sure, you don't know for sure who will be the opponent you are facing in the grand final of IEM but from the perspective of Maru, who are your biggest threats? Serral of course. Maybe herO, Dark, Reynor and Clem come next. You don't have 2 weeks to prepare specifically for one opponent but you have all year around to prepare for your toughest opponents. There's no way Korean pros are only prepping for their group stage opponents and leave prep for Serral only when it's confirmed they will be playing him.
My point is we never knows unless Serral tries. During his brother's stay in Korea in 2018-2020 (isn't it?), I think that is the right time he should do because this is the later stage of peak Sc2 tournament as supposedly claimed before. Otherwise the argument that Serral would survive in week-to-month preparation format will be pointless to make and premature I would say.
Serral would win more GSL’s than Maru winning ESL’s if they switch places
Serral never tested in preparation format of offline premier tournament involving at least three or four weeks stay in that location of tournament. We never know how he will react when someone pickup him as opponent in the group stage or how his opponents will prepare against him because he just makes a first attempt so he will be unseeded. Out of all foreigners competing in GSL, only Neeb, Scarlett, Special and Reynor had experience this kind of things while Serral has never done it yet. So it is kind of premature thing to predict what happens unless he tries first.
Much of weekender tournaments Serral participating comes from his right as the first seed (and also bracket luck unfortunately) so he has more access to be matched against a lower seed opponent.
Well he is the best there is. Why wouldn't he be seeded as first seed? Every sport on the planet does this
And what bracket luck are you talking about? Serral is cruising past everyone anyway as he has proven time and time again
My second argument is referred to the first paragraph in which Serral will be unseeded to face the one who picked him in group stage and the match will starts a least two or three weeks after in the location that he stays from the day of qualifying. Compared with weekender tournament like ESL (like previous poster's claim on his "Fun Fact"), he was never tested in this kind of situation.
Serral would win more GSL’s than Maru winning ESL’s if they switch places
Serral never tested in preparation format of offline premier tournament involving at least three or four weeks stay in that location of tournament.
Maru can't win tournaments for which he has to stay 3-4 days on location outside of Asia but somehow Serral is forced to live in Korea? Sure... Lets face it: If ESL announces tomorrow that there will be a big GSL-like new league-format based in Cologne or Malta (like ESL Pro League), people then somehow would devalue that aswell because "it needs to be in Korea, otherwise it is unfair for the koreans!!1"
Serral would win more GSL’s than Maru winning ESL’s if they switch places
Serral never tested in preparation format of offline premier tournament involving at least three or four weeks stay in that location of tournament. We never know how he will react when someone pickup him as opponent in the group stage or how his opponents will prepare against him because he just makes a first attempt so he will be unseeded. Out of all foreigners competing in GSL, only Neeb, Scarlett, Special and Reynor had experience this kind of things while Serral has never done it yet. So it is kind of premature thing to predict what happens unless he tries first.
Much of weekender tournaments Serral participating comes from his right as the first seed (and also bracket luck unfortunately) so he has more access to be matched against a lower seed opponent.
If anything the GSL format is better for Serral than a weekend event
Also I asked Byun about his GSL quote "Serral is the GOAT" and he said it was serious not a joke
Serral would win more GSL’s than Maru winning ESL’s if they switch places
Serral never tested in preparation format of offline premier tournament involving at least three or four weeks stay in that location of tournament. We never know how he will react when someone pickup him as opponent in the group stage or how his opponents will prepare against him because he just makes a first attempt so he will be unseeded. Out of all foreigners competing in GSL, only Neeb, Scarlett, Special and Reynor had experience this kind of things while Serral has never done it yet. So it is kind of premature thing to predict what happens unless he tries first.
Much of weekender tournaments Serral participating comes from his right as the first seed (and also bracket luck unfortunately) so he has more access to be matched against a lower seed opponent.
If anything the GSL format is better for Serral than a weekend event
Also I asked Byun about his GSL quote "Serral is the GOAT" and he said it was serious not a joke
I mean if Maru can't keep up with his perceived potential while his competitors manage to, it will become irrefutable that he is not the goat / not anymore. (even though he might have been a few months earlier) EWC is gonna settle this I think. Unless Maru wins it, Serral would have the best case for #1 in 2024.
The copium will never end, trully it should have ended years ago, but SC2 split player pool, and all tournaments being a crapshoot because of event format make it so people can choose whatever noise they like the best and ignore the signal.
It does not matter if Maru wins EWC, again, you're just looking at noise, 6 years straight being the best is far far better than any other SC2 player has done, for fucks sake whats Maru's map winrate vs Serral? 20%?
Serral has been #1 for bettors since 2018, when people vote with their money they're a lot more reasonable, the moment another player dominates as hard and as long Serral has it will be reasonable to think about another goat.
On June 06 2024 18:35 ktll4c91 wrote: I find this prep tournament argument not very strong given the smaller pool of truly competitive players. Sure, you don't know for sure who will be the opponent you are facing in the grand final of IEM but from the perspective of Maru, who are your biggest threats? Serral of course. Maybe herO, Dark, Reynor and Clem come next. You don't have 2 weeks to prepare specifically for one opponent but you have all year around to prepare for your toughest opponents. There's no way Korean pros are only prepping for their group stage opponents and leave prep for Serral only when it's confirmed they will be playing him.
My point is we never knows unless Serral tries. During his brother's stay in Korea in 2018-2020 (isn't it?), I think that is the right time he should do because this is the later stage of peak Sc2 tournament as supposedly claimed before. Otherwise the argument that Serral would survive in week-to-month preparation format will be pointless to make and premature I would say.
For me the prep tournament / no prep tournament argument is the premature one. Anyone who plans to go far in an international tournament will face Serral/Maru and the rest of the best players sooner or later. One can't go there and not prepare for Serral/Maru etc. Between GSL and international tournaments there are usually weeks. Weeks to prepare,weeks to brainstorm, weeks to pracc with the practice partners. The same is also true for Serral. He can watch the matches of Maru, herO, Dark etc. and i bet he does. Now the EWC tournament will be held in like 2 months 1 weeks. Yes, certain players will be playing GSL RO8 and RO4 but this GLS season will end at June 27th. There will be still more than enough time for anyone to cook something up for EWC.
On June 06 2024 22:14 LostUsername100 wrote: The copium will never end, trully it should have ended years ago, but SC2 split player pool, and all tournaments being a crapshoot because of event format make it so people can choose whatever noise they like the best and ignore the signal.
It does not matter if Maru wins EWC, again, you're just looking at noise, 6 years straight being the best is far far better than any other SC2 player has done, for fucks sake whats Maru's map winrate vs Serral? 20%?
Serral has been #1 for bettors since 2018, when people vote with their money they're a lot more reasonable, the moment another player dominates as hard and as long Serral has it will be reasonable to think about another goat.
You clearly have no idea how sportbooks determine odds.
On June 06 2024 22:14 LostUsername100 wrote: The copium will never end, trully it should have ended years ago, but SC2 split player pool, and all tournaments being a crapshoot because of event format make it so people can choose whatever noise they like the best and ignore the signal.
It does not matter if Maru wins EWC, again, you're just looking at noise, 6 years straight being the best is far far better than any other SC2 player has done, for fucks sake whats Maru's map winrate vs Serral? 20%?
Serral has been #1 for bettors since 2018, when people vote with their money they're a lot more reasonable, the moment another player dominates as hard and as long Serral has it will be reasonable to think about another goat.
You clearly have no idea how sportbooks determine odds.
I have a pretty good idea actually, I think you're just coping.
Here's the first link from google on how sportbooks odds work:
On June 06 2024 22:14 LostUsername100 wrote: The copium will never end, trully it should have ended years ago, but SC2 split player pool, and all tournaments being a crapshoot because of event format make it so people can choose whatever noise they like the best and ignore the signal.
It does not matter if Maru wins EWC, again, you're just looking at noise, 6 years straight being the best is far far better than any other SC2 player has done, for fucks sake whats Maru's map winrate vs Serral? 20%?
Serral has been #1 for bettors since 2018, when people vote with their money they're a lot more reasonable, the moment another player dominates as hard and as long Serral has it will be reasonable to think about another goat.
I mean if Maru wins EWC, not only would have he won the biggest Starcraft 2 prizepool tournament ever, it is also an official World Championship, so imho it'll make his #1 GOAT case very very compelling. Whoever wins EWC this year will bump his rank in the GOAT list.
Do you guys enjoy this? Cause if so keep banging but I just feel like there's more productive and fulfilling ways of spending your time than bickering back and forth over an opinion
On June 06 2024 22:14 LostUsername100 wrote: The copium will never end, trully it should have ended years ago, but SC2 split player pool, and all tournaments being a crapshoot because of event format make it so people can choose whatever noise they like the best and ignore the signal.
It does not matter if Maru wins EWC, again, you're just looking at noise, 6 years straight being the best is far far better than any other SC2 player has done, for fucks sake whats Maru's map winrate vs Serral? 20%?
Serral has been #1 for bettors since 2018, when people vote with their money they're a lot more reasonable, the moment another player dominates as hard and as long Serral has it will be reasonable to think about another goat.
You clearly have no idea how sportbooks determine odds.
I have a pretty good idea actually, I think you're just coping.
Here's the first link from google on how sportbooks odds work:
It's pretty much how I think it works overall, feel free to correct them.
The point of line setting is to create a situation where the casino/sport bets receives max profit. As such, the odds are not a reflection of what is the most likely occurrence. If they were the line would never move. The line continues to move because the casino/sport books are reacting to the betting public and adjusting the line allows them to minimize loss by insuring people can't get the value they might have gotten by the initial line.
Also, the fact that you googled the conceit and picked some god awful article that simplifies everything shows your knowledge on this subject. You just picked a general guide as to how lines are set and examples of them. Unfortunately, betting lines are not static and, while you can lock in your bet at a certain rate, the line is always moving, even during the game. Another funny thing is that if you do get ahead of the betting public and get incredible value on something, the casino/sportsbook will try to pay you off with a cash settlement rather than letting the bet ride. Casinos aren't there to access and accurately depict the quality of a team or player. They exist to make money.
Serral would win more GSL’s than Maru winning ESL’s if they switch places
Doubtful considering they are counting EU regionals and Maru has higher winrates vs Reynor and Clem than Serral does.
Unless you think Maru's winrate vs Clem/Reynor would drop if he played them in their home scene regularly (which I don't think is unreasonable) but if that's the case why isn't it also reasonable to say Maru would do better against Serral in Korea than he does internationally?
Zerg has also always underperformed in GSL relative to weekenders, even before Serral was around, I doubt Serral could break the trend to a significant degree. He would win a few seasons but I don't see him winning 8. In 2018 I'm confident he wouldn't have won one. 2019 would all come down to him vs Rogue and Dark. 2020 he'd have a hard time in season 1, Zerg was struggling to adapt to the new changes vs both T/P at the time. Season 2 would probably be him vs Rogue in the finals and he might win season 3. 2021 Serral struggled with a lot of players including Rogue, Trap, Maru, and Dark. 2022 forward he'd start winning regularly.
Serral would win more GSL’s than Maru winning ESL’s if they switch places
Serral never tested in preparation format of offline premier tournament involving at least three or four weeks stay in that location of tournament.
Maru can't win tournaments for which he has to stay 3-4 days on location outside of Asia but somehow Serral is forced to live in Korea? Sure... Lets face it: If ESL announces tomorrow that there will be a big GSL-like new league-format based in Cologne or Malta (like ESL Pro League), people then somehow would devalue that aswell because "it needs to be in Korea, otherwise it is unfair for the koreans!!1"
No one is forcing Serral to live in South Korea, and I think you're confused about the issue at play here. This has nothing to do with being "in Korea" (or any specific location), and everything to do with preparation versus weekender tournament formats. In case you want to understand it better:
Serral is very clearly the best player to ever play the game, and I think he has a great claim to be the GOAT. But these kinds of comments are just silly.
On June 06 2024 23:44 Schelim wrote: Do you guys enjoy this? Cause if so keep banging but I just feel like there's more productive and fulfilling ways of spending your time than bickering back and forth over an opinion
There are some interesting informations appearing from time to time though. For example, the Perceiver guy posted a google link vaguely explaining the concept about odds. Maybe his knowledge was limited, maybe not, however Mizenhauer (who has tons more info from his experience, probably due to the fact that Starcraft overall has been 'plagued'/'helped'/'involved' by betting for a long time) posted in response some interesting insight.
It reminds me of an interaction with some Starcraft 2 fan / twitch moderator I had on twitter a while back: that person blocked me ultimately iirc, but I gained some great insight that the person might have not revealed it if I did not seem dense during our exchange (the person called me dense before blocking me, but after revealing some insight about pros ways of trying to improve in various esports titles).
So in essence, despite some exchanges looking like bickering back and forth, some great insights can appear from it. I personally value those insights a lot, as a rather curious individual.
edit: so, to summarize, even though the exchanges might be unpleasant emotionally, you can still learn valuable things in the process
EPT
