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Northern Ireland26032 Posts
On June 06 2024 20:33 Scarlett` wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2024 17:46 swarminfestor wrote:On June 06 2024 14:42 LukaMav wrote:
Fun fact:
Serral would win more GSL’s than Maru winning ESL’s if they switch places Serral never tested in preparation format of offline premier tournament involving at least three or four weeks stay in that location of tournament. We never know how he will react when someone pickup him as opponent in the group stage or how his opponents will prepare against him because he just makes a first attempt so he will be unseeded. Out of all foreigners competing in GSL, only Neeb, Scarlett, Special and Reynor had experience this kind of things while Serral has never done it yet. So it is kind of premature thing to predict what happens unless he tries first. Much of weekender tournaments Serral participating comes from his right as the first seed (and also bracket luck unfortunately) so he has more access to be matched against a lower seed opponent. If anything the GSL format is better for Serral than a weekend event Also I asked Byun about his GSL quote "Serral is the GOAT" and he said it was serious not a joke
It seems the pros are more uniformly in the Serral is the GOAT camp, least from quotes I’ve heard.
I suppose part of that is having to play him, part is having the pro’s expertise to notice small things in his gameplay others might miss.
I wonder if part of it is also that pros maybe value different tournaments a bit differently as well? Prestige doesn’t pay the bills and all that
Like sure Serral isn’t playing in GSL but he sure hoovers up a lot of prize money from many other tournaments that other pros would rather have in their bank balances
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United States1901 Posts
On June 07 2024 03:40 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2024 20:33 Scarlett` wrote:On June 06 2024 17:46 swarminfestor wrote:On June 06 2024 14:42 LukaMav wrote:
Fun fact:
Serral would win more GSL’s than Maru winning ESL’s if they switch places Serral never tested in preparation format of offline premier tournament involving at least three or four weeks stay in that location of tournament. We never know how he will react when someone pickup him as opponent in the group stage or how his opponents will prepare against him because he just makes a first attempt so he will be unseeded. Out of all foreigners competing in GSL, only Neeb, Scarlett, Special and Reynor had experience this kind of things while Serral has never done it yet. So it is kind of premature thing to predict what happens unless he tries first. Much of weekender tournaments Serral participating comes from his right as the first seed (and also bracket luck unfortunately) so he has more access to be matched against a lower seed opponent. If anything the GSL format is better for Serral than a weekend event Also I asked Byun about his GSL quote "Serral is the GOAT" and he said it was serious not a joke It seems the pros are more uniformly in the Serral is the GOAT camp, least from quotes I’ve heard. I suppose part of that is having to play him, part is having the pro’s expertise to notice small things in his gameplay others might miss. I wonder if part of it is also that pros maybe value different tournaments a bit differently as well? Prestige doesn’t pay the bills and all that Like sure Serral isn’t playing in GSL but he sure hoovers up a lot of prize money from many other tournaments that other pros would rather have in their bank balances
Using prize money as a metric for goodness is absurd given the payouts change yearly. Sometimes the money is more spread out. Sometimes it isn't. There are region locked events or invitationals and all sorts of things that could affect the amount a player wins. I know I got baited, but in general it's one of the worst arguments there is.
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France12904 Posts
On June 07 2024 03:40 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2024 20:33 Scarlett` wrote:On June 06 2024 17:46 swarminfestor wrote:On June 06 2024 14:42 LukaMav wrote:
Fun fact:
Serral would win more GSL’s than Maru winning ESL’s if they switch places Serral never tested in preparation format of offline premier tournament involving at least three or four weeks stay in that location of tournament. We never know how he will react when someone pickup him as opponent in the group stage or how his opponents will prepare against him because he just makes a first attempt so he will be unseeded. Out of all foreigners competing in GSL, only Neeb, Scarlett, Special and Reynor had experience this kind of things while Serral has never done it yet. So it is kind of premature thing to predict what happens unless he tries first. Much of weekender tournaments Serral participating comes from his right as the first seed (and also bracket luck unfortunately) so he has more access to be matched against a lower seed opponent. If anything the GSL format is better for Serral than a weekend event Also I asked Byun about his GSL quote "Serral is the GOAT" and he said it was serious not a joke It seems the pros are more uniformly in the Serral is the GOAT camp, least from quotes I’ve heard. I suppose part of that is having to play him, part is having the pro’s expertise to notice small things in his gameplay others might miss. I wonder if part of it is also that pros maybe value different tournaments a bit differently as well? Prestige doesn’t pay the bills and all that Like sure Serral isn’t playing in GSL but he sure hoovers up a lot of prize money from many other tournaments that other pros would rather have in their bank balances
In the case of ByuN it might also be that he is far closer with Maru than he is with Serral. So he probably hears a lot more about Maru doubting himself, that sort of thing.
And in either case, both Maru and Serral are objectively incredibly successful players in Starcraft 2, so it is a pretty reasonable take to see Serral as the GOAT. I was pretty certain ByuN was serious when I read this quote, so thank you Scarlett for confirming it!
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Northern Ireland26032 Posts
On June 07 2024 04:14 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2024 03:40 WombaT wrote:On June 06 2024 20:33 Scarlett` wrote:On June 06 2024 17:46 swarminfestor wrote:On June 06 2024 14:42 LukaMav wrote:
Fun fact:
Serral would win more GSL’s than Maru winning ESL’s if they switch places Serral never tested in preparation format of offline premier tournament involving at least three or four weeks stay in that location of tournament. We never know how he will react when someone pickup him as opponent in the group stage or how his opponents will prepare against him because he just makes a first attempt so he will be unseeded. Out of all foreigners competing in GSL, only Neeb, Scarlett, Special and Reynor had experience this kind of things while Serral has never done it yet. So it is kind of premature thing to predict what happens unless he tries first. Much of weekender tournaments Serral participating comes from his right as the first seed (and also bracket luck unfortunately) so he has more access to be matched against a lower seed opponent. If anything the GSL format is better for Serral than a weekend event Also I asked Byun about his GSL quote "Serral is the GOAT" and he said it was serious not a joke It seems the pros are more uniformly in the Serral is the GOAT camp, least from quotes I’ve heard. I suppose part of that is having to play him, part is having the pro’s expertise to notice small things in his gameplay others might miss. I wonder if part of it is also that pros maybe value different tournaments a bit differently as well? Prestige doesn’t pay the bills and all that Like sure Serral isn’t playing in GSL but he sure hoovers up a lot of prize money from many other tournaments that other pros would rather have in their bank balances Using prize money as a metric for goodness is absurd given the payouts change yearly. Sometimes the money is more spread out. Sometimes it isn't. There are region locked events or invitationals and all sorts of things that could affect the amount a player wins. I know I got baited, but in general it's one of the worst arguments there is.
It’s not an argument I would make myself, wasn’t my angle much less bait!
My point is to a pro, a stacked weekender with a field/prize pool equivalent to a GSL or w/e is gonna be something you’re going to prioritise as it’s a good chunk of your livliehood
If we’re talking the big ones it’s the same top players, for similar money etc, rather than region-locked ones or ones with minor fields etc.
Or to reword somewhat I think the pros seem to tend to judge on sheer ability or level as they’re the ones who are competing against them, for both prestige and money. At least based on public utterances.
Where fans tend to interject various caveats and perhaps have a different perspective with that little extra distance from the coalface.
To take Serral and Maru as two pertinent examples, if I’m a pro competing against them and frequently getting stomped and losing earning potential. I don’t think Serral not playing in GSL, or Maru not having won an offline weekender outside of Asia on a Tuesday would be all that relevant to how I’d perceive them.
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On June 07 2024 03:40 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2024 20:33 Scarlett` wrote:On June 06 2024 17:46 swarminfestor wrote:On June 06 2024 14:42 LukaMav wrote:
Fun fact:
Serral would win more GSL’s than Maru winning ESL’s if they switch places Serral never tested in preparation format of offline premier tournament involving at least three or four weeks stay in that location of tournament. We never know how he will react when someone pickup him as opponent in the group stage or how his opponents will prepare against him because he just makes a first attempt so he will be unseeded. Out of all foreigners competing in GSL, only Neeb, Scarlett, Special and Reynor had experience this kind of things while Serral has never done it yet. So it is kind of premature thing to predict what happens unless he tries first. Much of weekender tournaments Serral participating comes from his right as the first seed (and also bracket luck unfortunately) so he has more access to be matched against a lower seed opponent. If anything the GSL format is better for Serral than a weekend event Also I asked Byun about his GSL quote "Serral is the GOAT" and he said it was serious not a joke It seems the pros are more uniformly in the Serral is the GOAT camp, least from quotes I’ve heard. I suppose part of that is having to play him, part is having the pro’s expertise to notice small things in his gameplay others might miss. I wonder if part of it is also that pros maybe value different tournaments a bit differently as well? Prestige doesn’t pay the bills and all that Like sure Serral isn’t playing in GSL but he sure hoovers up a lot of prize money from many other tournaments that other pros would rather have in their bank balances
The simplest explanation is that Serral is the most dominant player these pros have ever played, the hardest to play against...and many pros view that as equivalent to being the GOAT. They aren't necessarily looking at overall achievements over a career. It's the same reason that many top chess pros who have struggled against Magnus Carlsen view him to be the chess GOAT (even though Magnus himself says it's Gary Kasparov). I do think in an inherently subjective exercise the pros' opinions count for something FWIW.
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On June 07 2024 02:05 Poopi wrote:
Do you realize GuMiho managed to punch above his weight multiple times vs various zergs, including Serral, in the past?
That's GSL for you. Low ping, highly prepared players.
I think GSL is definetely more volatile that the weekend tournaments. And also its hard to say exactly how well Serral would fare if he ever participated in those.
However;
Maru is the king of GSL. Serral has no problems defeating him atm. He has actually not much difficulties to defeating anyone in the planet. Of course that cant be straight compared to GSL, but I think its safe to say he has a good chance of winning multiple trophies if he ever wanted to participate. Also, when people are talking about these build order things; how often have you seen Serral get surprised lately ? He is imo by far the best scout of all players out there and one of the best defenders also. If we get to lategame he is also the best player out there. The most difficulties that get Serral to troubles are if you can surprise him(Dark/Reynor), bate him to for example either drone too much or make too much defense too early (Solar?) or just keep immense pressure almost whole game (Clem/Inno). And how many people outside of whom I mentioned here can do that perfectly enough to get him out ?
Also people comparing him to Reynor for example is laughable. Dont get me wrong, I love Reynor and he is a great player, but especially for last few years he has been off from his normal game. And even in his peak, Reynor is much more vulnerable to different strategies and all-ins.
On June 07 2024 02:05 Poopi wrote:
When in the ESL you have to beat several lower level pros before you encounter the few players that might take a few games versus you. The format from ESLs are such that it's almost impossible to place badly if you are among the contenders, whereas in GSL top contenders failed to get past group stage time and time again.
Thats a bit condensending towards many players. Of course GSL is more stacked than EU, but players like HeroMarine, Lambo, MaxPax, ShowTime arent that far off from players in GSL rounds. And then there are the usuals Clem and Reynor, which can be championship caliber opponents.
TLDR; Yes, GSL is more volatile and has better playerbase. That doesnt mean that it would affect much on the results Serral is getting elsewhere, especially since he dominates the scene.
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On June 07 2024 09:23 Starcloud wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2024 02:05 Poopi wrote:
Do you realize GuMiho managed to punch above his weight multiple times vs various zergs, including Serral, in the past?
That's GSL for you. Low ping, highly prepared players.
I think GSL is definetely more volatile that the weekend tournaments. And also its hard to say exactly how well Serral would fare if he ever participated in those. However; Maru is the king of GSL. Serral has no problems defeating him atm. He has actually not much difficulties to defeating anyone in the planet. Of course that cant be straight compared to GSL, but I think its safe to say he has a good chance of winning multiple trophies if he ever wanted to participate. Also, when people are talking about these build order things; how often have you seen Serral get surprised lately ? He is imo by far the best scout of all players out there and one of the best defenders also. If we get to lategame he is also the best player out there. The most difficulties that get Serral to troubles are if you can surprise him(Dark/Reynor), bate him to for example either drone too much or make too much defense too early (Solar?) or just keep immense pressure almost whole game (Clem/Inno). And how many people outside of whom I mentioned here can do that perfectly enough to get him out ? Also people comparing him to Reynor for example is laughable. Dont get me wrong, I love Reynor and he is a great player, but especially for last few years he has been off from his normal game. And even in his peak, Reynor is much more vulnerable to different strategies and all-ins. Show nested quote +On June 07 2024 02:05 Poopi wrote:
When in the ESL you have to beat several lower level pros before you encounter the few players that might take a few games versus you. The format from ESLs are such that it's almost impossible to place badly if you are among the contenders, whereas in GSL top contenders failed to get past group stage time and time again. Thats a bit condensending towards many players. Of course GSL is more stacked than EU, but players like HeroMarine, Lambo, MaxPax, ShowTime arent that far off from players in GSL rounds. And then there are the usuals Clem and Reynor, which can be championship caliber opponents. TLDR; Yes, GSL is more volatile and has better playerbase. That doesnt mean that it would affect much on the results Serral is getting elsewhere, especially since he dominates the scene.
"Maru is the king of GSL. Serral has no problems defeating him atm. He has actually not much difficulties to defeating anyone in the planet. Of course that cant be straight compared to GSL, but I think its safe to say he has a good chance of winning multiple trophies if he ever wanted to participate."
Just imagine having an 11 games streak, and, 85%-ish in offline winrate, against the best Korean while outside of Korean, but then magically no longer being favored against him on his home soil. Imagine have an overwhelmingly favorable winrate against all of the Koreans abroad, and then no longer being favored by the magic of "preparation tournament" voodoo. I mean, why would anyone ever prep for Serral? That'd be stupid, he's only the favorite player of ever tournament. No, you must only ever prep when you're playing in GSL against players who include B-tiers. You don't prep for the only SSS-tier player, because there is no logical reason to do any of such thing for a weekender. lol Silly foreigners thinking they actually can survive in the harshest gaming environment in the universe—Korea. That GSL v TW was clearly just a fluke. The other one, too.
Maybe he should get tips from Scarlett, Special, and Neeb on how they managed to at least come close to sniffing the holy grail that is a GSL trophy while being much weaker players during periods of SC2 that were "tHe MoSt CoMpEtITiVe HURRR."
Maru GOAT! End this silly debate. No one can be called GOAT for dominating an era where the tRuE gOaT is injured and can't practice 12 hrs/day like he used to in superior training sessions provided by teamhouses. We all know teamhouses produce the best players, because Serral showed us all that his teamhou—oh, wait...
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On June 07 2024 10:28 Perceivere wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2024 09:23 Starcloud wrote:On June 07 2024 02:05 Poopi wrote:
Do you realize GuMiho managed to punch above his weight multiple times vs various zergs, including Serral, in the past?
That's GSL for you. Low ping, highly prepared players.
I think GSL is definetely more volatile that the weekend tournaments. And also its hard to say exactly how well Serral would fare if he ever participated in those. However; Maru is the king of GSL. Serral has no problems defeating him atm. He has actually not much difficulties to defeating anyone in the planet. Of course that cant be straight compared to GSL, but I think its safe to say he has a good chance of winning multiple trophies if he ever wanted to participate. Also, when people are talking about these build order things; how often have you seen Serral get surprised lately ? He is imo by far the best scout of all players out there and one of the best defenders also. If we get to lategame he is also the best player out there. The most difficulties that get Serral to troubles are if you can surprise him(Dark/Reynor), bate him to for example either drone too much or make too much defense too early (Solar?) or just keep immense pressure almost whole game (Clem/Inno). And how many people outside of whom I mentioned here can do that perfectly enough to get him out ? Also people comparing him to Reynor for example is laughable. Dont get me wrong, I love Reynor and he is a great player, but especially for last few years he has been off from his normal game. And even in his peak, Reynor is much more vulnerable to different strategies and all-ins. On June 07 2024 02:05 Poopi wrote:
When in the ESL you have to beat several lower level pros before you encounter the few players that might take a few games versus you. The format from ESLs are such that it's almost impossible to place badly if you are among the contenders, whereas in GSL top contenders failed to get past group stage time and time again. Thats a bit condensending towards many players. Of course GSL is more stacked than EU, but players like HeroMarine, Lambo, MaxPax, ShowTime arent that far off from players in GSL rounds. And then there are the usuals Clem and Reynor, which can be championship caliber opponents. TLDR; Yes, GSL is more volatile and has better playerbase. That doesnt mean that it would affect much on the results Serral is getting elsewhere, especially since he dominates the scene. "Maru is the king of GSL. Serral has no problems defeating him atm. He has actually not much difficulties to defeating anyone in the planet. Of course that cant be straight compared to GSL, but I think its safe to say he has a good chance of winning multiple trophies if he ever wanted to participate." Just imagine having an 11 games streak, and, 85%-ish in offline winrate, against the best Korean while outside of Korean, but then magically no longer being favored against him on his home soil. Imagine have an overwhelmingly favorable winrate against all of the Koreans abroad, and then no longer being favored by the magic of "preparation tournament" voodoo. I mean, why would anyone ever prep for Serral? That'd be stupid, he's only the favorite player of ever tournament. No, you must only ever prep when you're playing in GSL against players who include B-tiers. You don't prep for the only SSS-tier player, because there is no logical reason to do any of such thing for a weekender. lol Silly foreigners thinking they actually can survive in the harshest gaming environment in the universe—Korea. That GSL v TW was clearly just a fluke. The other one, too. Maybe he should get tips from Scarlett, Special, and Neeb on how they managed to at least come close to sniffing the holy grail that is a GSL trophy while being much weaker players during periods of SC2 that were " tHe MoSt CoMpEtITiVe HURRR." Maru GOAT! End this silly debate. No one can be called GOAT for dominating an era where the tRuE gOaT is injured and can't practice 12 hrs/day like he used to in superior training sessions provided by teamhouses. We all know teamhouses produce the best players, because Serral showed us all that his teamhou—oh, wait...
Enjoyed the read thanks :D
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On June 07 2024 10:28 Perceivere wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2024 09:23 Starcloud wrote:On June 07 2024 02:05 Poopi wrote:
Do you realize GuMiho managed to punch above his weight multiple times vs various zergs, including Serral, in the past?
That's GSL for you. Low ping, highly prepared players.
I think GSL is definetely more volatile that the weekend tournaments. And also its hard to say exactly how well Serral would fare if he ever participated in those. However; Maru is the king of GSL. Serral has no problems defeating him atm. He has actually not much difficulties to defeating anyone in the planet. Of course that cant be straight compared to GSL, but I think its safe to say he has a good chance of winning multiple trophies if he ever wanted to participate. Also, when people are talking about these build order things; how often have you seen Serral get surprised lately ? He is imo by far the best scout of all players out there and one of the best defenders also. If we get to lategame he is also the best player out there. The most difficulties that get Serral to troubles are if you can surprise him(Dark/Reynor), bate him to for example either drone too much or make too much defense too early (Solar?) or just keep immense pressure almost whole game (Clem/Inno). And how many people outside of whom I mentioned here can do that perfectly enough to get him out ? Also people comparing him to Reynor for example is laughable. Dont get me wrong, I love Reynor and he is a great player, but especially for last few years he has been off from his normal game. And even in his peak, Reynor is much more vulnerable to different strategies and all-ins. On June 07 2024 02:05 Poopi wrote:
When in the ESL you have to beat several lower level pros before you encounter the few players that might take a few games versus you. The format from ESLs are such that it's almost impossible to place badly if you are among the contenders, whereas in GSL top contenders failed to get past group stage time and time again. Thats a bit condensending towards many players. Of course GSL is more stacked than EU, but players like HeroMarine, Lambo, MaxPax, ShowTime arent that far off from players in GSL rounds. And then there are the usuals Clem and Reynor, which can be championship caliber opponents. TLDR; Yes, GSL is more volatile and has better playerbase. That doesnt mean that it would affect much on the results Serral is getting elsewhere, especially since he dominates the scene. "Maru is the king of GSL. Serral has no problems defeating him atm. He has actually not much difficulties to defeating anyone in the planet. Of course that cant be straight compared to GSL, but I think its safe to say he has a good chance of winning multiple trophies if he ever wanted to participate." Just imagine having an 11 games streak, and, 85%-ish in offline winrate, against the best Korean while outside of Korean, but then magically no longer being favored against him on his home soil. Imagine have an overwhelmingly favorable winrate against all of the Koreans abroad, and then no longer being favored by the magic of "preparation tournament" voodoo. I mean, why would anyone ever prep for Serral? That'd be stupid, he's only the favorite player of ever tournament. No, you must only ever prep when you're playing in GSL against players who include B-tiers. You don't prep for the only SSS-tier player, because there is no logical reason to do any of such thing for a weekender. lol Silly foreigners thinking they actually can survive in the harshest gaming environment in the universe—Korea. That GSL v TW was clearly just a fluke. The other one, too. Maybe he should get tips from Scarlett, Special, and Neeb on how they managed to at least come close to sniffing the holy grail that is a GSL trophy while being much weaker players during periods of SC2 that were " tHe MoSt CoMpEtITiVe HURRR." Maru GOAT! End this silly debate. No one can be called GOAT for dominating an era where the tRuE gOaT is injured and can't practice 12 hrs/day like he used to in superior training sessions provided by teamhouses. We all know teamhouses produce the best players, because Serral showed us all that his teamhou—oh, wait...
Even the collective hive mind of jin air couldn't help sOs be bulldozed by a lonely ByuN
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On June 07 2024 10:28 Perceivere wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2024 09:23 Starcloud wrote:On June 07 2024 02:05 Poopi wrote:
Do you realize GuMiho managed to punch above his weight multiple times vs various zergs, including Serral, in the past?
That's GSL for you. Low ping, highly prepared players.
I think GSL is definetely more volatile that the weekend tournaments. And also its hard to say exactly how well Serral would fare if he ever participated in those. However; Maru is the king of GSL. Serral has no problems defeating him atm. He has actually not much difficulties to defeating anyone in the planet. Of course that cant be straight compared to GSL, but I think its safe to say he has a good chance of winning multiple trophies if he ever wanted to participate. Also, when people are talking about these build order things; how often have you seen Serral get surprised lately ? He is imo by far the best scout of all players out there and one of the best defenders also. If we get to lategame he is also the best player out there. The most difficulties that get Serral to troubles are if you can surprise him(Dark/Reynor), bate him to for example either drone too much or make too much defense too early (Solar?) or just keep immense pressure almost whole game (Clem/Inno). And how many people outside of whom I mentioned here can do that perfectly enough to get him out ? Also people comparing him to Reynor for example is laughable. Dont get me wrong, I love Reynor and he is a great player, but especially for last few years he has been off from his normal game. And even in his peak, Reynor is much more vulnerable to different strategies and all-ins. On June 07 2024 02:05 Poopi wrote:
When in the ESL you have to beat several lower level pros before you encounter the few players that might take a few games versus you. The format from ESLs are such that it's almost impossible to place badly if you are among the contenders, whereas in GSL top contenders failed to get past group stage time and time again. Thats a bit condensending towards many players. Of course GSL is more stacked than EU, but players like HeroMarine, Lambo, MaxPax, ShowTime arent that far off from players in GSL rounds. And then there are the usuals Clem and Reynor, which can be championship caliber opponents. TLDR; Yes, GSL is more volatile and has better playerbase. That doesnt mean that it would affect much on the results Serral is getting elsewhere, especially since he dominates the scene. "Maru is the king of GSL. Serral has no problems defeating him atm. He has actually not much difficulties to defeating anyone in the planet. Of course that cant be straight compared to GSL, but I think its safe to say he has a good chance of winning multiple trophies if he ever wanted to participate." Just imagine having an 11 games streak, and, 85%-ish in offline winrate, against the best Korean while outside of Korean, but then magically no longer being favored against him on his home soil. Imagine have an overwhelmingly favorable winrate against all of the Koreans abroad, and then no longer being favored by the magic of "preparation tournament" voodoo. I mean, why would anyone ever prep for Serral? That'd be stupid, he's only the favorite player of ever tournament. No, you must only ever prep when you're playing in GSL against players who include B-tiers. You don't prep for the only SSS-tier player, because there is no logical reason to do any of such thing for a weekender. lol Silly foreigners thinking they actually can survive in the harshest gaming environment in the universe—Korea. That GSL v TW was clearly just a fluke. The other one, too. Maybe he should get tips from Scarlett, Special, and Neeb on how they managed to at least come close to sniffing the holy grail that is a GSL trophy while being much weaker players during periods of SC2 that were " tHe MoSt CoMpEtITiVe HURRR." Maru GOAT! End this silly debate. No one can be called GOAT for dominating an era where the tRuE gOaT is injured and can't practice 12 hrs/day like he used to in superior training sessions provided by teamhouses. We all know teamhouses produce the best players, because Serral showed us all that his teamhou—oh, wait...
I mean, it's a proven fact that some players struggle more in the preparation format and some in the weekender format.
Solar was for a time really strong in weekenders but couldn't even advance to the playoffs in GSL. TaeJa couldn't even win WCS NA (which was a preparation tournament) while dominating every other weekender).
sOs has won a 3 world championships but couldn't win a single GSL. Reynor couldn't advance from the groupstage in 3 attempts against players he'd usually be favored against.
I'm not saying Serral would definitely perform badly in the GSL, but the tournament clearly requires a different skillset and unless Serral plays in it we can't just assume how he'd perform.
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On June 07 2024 16:35 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2024 10:28 Perceivere wrote:On June 07 2024 09:23 Starcloud wrote:On June 07 2024 02:05 Poopi wrote:
Do you realize GuMiho managed to punch above his weight multiple times vs various zergs, including Serral, in the past?
That's GSL for you. Low ping, highly prepared players.
I think GSL is definetely more volatile that the weekend tournaments. And also its hard to say exactly how well Serral would fare if he ever participated in those. However; Maru is the king of GSL. Serral has no problems defeating him atm. He has actually not much difficulties to defeating anyone in the planet. Of course that cant be straight compared to GSL, but I think its safe to say he has a good chance of winning multiple trophies if he ever wanted to participate. Also, when people are talking about these build order things; how often have you seen Serral get surprised lately ? He is imo by far the best scout of all players out there and one of the best defenders also. If we get to lategame he is also the best player out there. The most difficulties that get Serral to troubles are if you can surprise him(Dark/Reynor), bate him to for example either drone too much or make too much defense too early (Solar?) or just keep immense pressure almost whole game (Clem/Inno). And how many people outside of whom I mentioned here can do that perfectly enough to get him out ? Also people comparing him to Reynor for example is laughable. Dont get me wrong, I love Reynor and he is a great player, but especially for last few years he has been off from his normal game. And even in his peak, Reynor is much more vulnerable to different strategies and all-ins. On June 07 2024 02:05 Poopi wrote:
When in the ESL you have to beat several lower level pros before you encounter the few players that might take a few games versus you. The format from ESLs are such that it's almost impossible to place badly if you are among the contenders, whereas in GSL top contenders failed to get past group stage time and time again. Thats a bit condensending towards many players. Of course GSL is more stacked than EU, but players like HeroMarine, Lambo, MaxPax, ShowTime arent that far off from players in GSL rounds. And then there are the usuals Clem and Reynor, which can be championship caliber opponents. TLDR; Yes, GSL is more volatile and has better playerbase. That doesnt mean that it would affect much on the results Serral is getting elsewhere, especially since he dominates the scene. "Maru is the king of GSL. Serral has no problems defeating him atm. He has actually not much difficulties to defeating anyone in the planet. Of course that cant be straight compared to GSL, but I think its safe to say he has a good chance of winning multiple trophies if he ever wanted to participate." Just imagine having an 11 games streak, and, 85%-ish in offline winrate, against the best Korean while outside of Korean, but then magically no longer being favored against him on his home soil. Imagine have an overwhelmingly favorable winrate against all of the Koreans abroad, and then no longer being favored by the magic of "preparation tournament" voodoo. I mean, why would anyone ever prep for Serral? That'd be stupid, he's only the favorite player of ever tournament. No, you must only ever prep when you're playing in GSL against players who include B-tiers. You don't prep for the only SSS-tier player, because there is no logical reason to do any of such thing for a weekender. lol Silly foreigners thinking they actually can survive in the harshest gaming environment in the universe—Korea. That GSL v TW was clearly just a fluke. The other one, too. Maybe he should get tips from Scarlett, Special, and Neeb on how they managed to at least come close to sniffing the holy grail that is a GSL trophy while being much weaker players during periods of SC2 that were " tHe MoSt CoMpEtITiVe HURRR." Maru GOAT! End this silly debate. No one can be called GOAT for dominating an era where the tRuE gOaT is injured and can't practice 12 hrs/day like he used to in superior training sessions provided by teamhouses. We all know teamhouses produce the best players, because Serral showed us all that his teamhou—oh, wait... I mean, it's a proven fact that some players struggle more in the preparation format and some in the weekender format. Solar was for a time really strong in weekenders but couldn't even advance to the playoffs in GSL. TaeJa couldn't even win WCS NA (which was a preparation tournament) while dominating every other weekender). sOs has won a 3 world championships but couldn't win a single GSL. Reynor couldn't advance from the groupstage in 3 attempts against players he'd usually be favored against. I'm not saying Serral would definitely perform badly in the GSL, but the tournament clearly requires a different skillset and unless Serral plays in it we can't just assume how he'd perform.
How many speciality builds are there inGSL anymore? Sometimes i feel that the preparation time of GSL is hugely overplayed. So these players really need weeks to prepare builds for a given opponent? As i said earlier, there can be sniper builds in weekenders. Serral vs Dark in IEM, Serral vs Maru in Dallas, where Serral’s game was optimized to kill Maru before lategame. Are those not the exact skills you need to do well in GSL?
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On June 07 2024 16:53 HeroSandro wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2024 16:35 Charoisaur wrote:On June 07 2024 10:28 Perceivere wrote:On June 07 2024 09:23 Starcloud wrote:On June 07 2024 02:05 Poopi wrote:
Do you realize GuMiho managed to punch above his weight multiple times vs various zergs, including Serral, in the past?
That's GSL for you. Low ping, highly prepared players.
I think GSL is definetely more volatile that the weekend tournaments. And also its hard to say exactly how well Serral would fare if he ever participated in those. However; Maru is the king of GSL. Serral has no problems defeating him atm. He has actually not much difficulties to defeating anyone in the planet. Of course that cant be straight compared to GSL, but I think its safe to say he has a good chance of winning multiple trophies if he ever wanted to participate. Also, when people are talking about these build order things; how often have you seen Serral get surprised lately ? He is imo by far the best scout of all players out there and one of the best defenders also. If we get to lategame he is also the best player out there. The most difficulties that get Serral to troubles are if you can surprise him(Dark/Reynor), bate him to for example either drone too much or make too much defense too early (Solar?) or just keep immense pressure almost whole game (Clem/Inno). And how many people outside of whom I mentioned here can do that perfectly enough to get him out ? Also people comparing him to Reynor for example is laughable. Dont get me wrong, I love Reynor and he is a great player, but especially for last few years he has been off from his normal game. And even in his peak, Reynor is much more vulnerable to different strategies and all-ins. On June 07 2024 02:05 Poopi wrote:
When in the ESL you have to beat several lower level pros before you encounter the few players that might take a few games versus you. The format from ESLs are such that it's almost impossible to place badly if you are among the contenders, whereas in GSL top contenders failed to get past group stage time and time again. Thats a bit condensending towards many players. Of course GSL is more stacked than EU, but players like HeroMarine, Lambo, MaxPax, ShowTime arent that far off from players in GSL rounds. And then there are the usuals Clem and Reynor, which can be championship caliber opponents. TLDR; Yes, GSL is more volatile and has better playerbase. That doesnt mean that it would affect much on the results Serral is getting elsewhere, especially since he dominates the scene. "Maru is the king of GSL. Serral has no problems defeating him atm. He has actually not much difficulties to defeating anyone in the planet. Of course that cant be straight compared to GSL, but I think its safe to say he has a good chance of winning multiple trophies if he ever wanted to participate." Just imagine having an 11 games streak, and, 85%-ish in offline winrate, against the best Korean while outside of Korean, but then magically no longer being favored against him on his home soil. Imagine have an overwhelmingly favorable winrate against all of the Koreans abroad, and then no longer being favored by the magic of "preparation tournament" voodoo. I mean, why would anyone ever prep for Serral? That'd be stupid, he's only the favorite player of ever tournament. No, you must only ever prep when you're playing in GSL against players who include B-tiers. You don't prep for the only SSS-tier player, because there is no logical reason to do any of such thing for a weekender. lol Silly foreigners thinking they actually can survive in the harshest gaming environment in the universe—Korea. That GSL v TW was clearly just a fluke. The other one, too. Maybe he should get tips from Scarlett, Special, and Neeb on how they managed to at least come close to sniffing the holy grail that is a GSL trophy while being much weaker players during periods of SC2 that were " tHe MoSt CoMpEtITiVe HURRR." Maru GOAT! End this silly debate. No one can be called GOAT for dominating an era where the tRuE gOaT is injured and can't practice 12 hrs/day like he used to in superior training sessions provided by teamhouses. We all know teamhouses produce the best players, because Serral showed us all that his teamhou—oh, wait... I mean, it's a proven fact that some players struggle more in the preparation format and some in the weekender format. Solar was for a time really strong in weekenders but couldn't even advance to the playoffs in GSL. TaeJa couldn't even win WCS NA (which was a preparation tournament) while dominating every other weekender). sOs has won a 3 world championships but couldn't win a single GSL. Reynor couldn't advance from the groupstage in 3 attempts against players he'd usually be favored against. I'm not saying Serral would definitely perform badly in the GSL, but the tournament clearly requires a different skillset and unless Serral plays in it we can't just assume how he'd perform. How many speciality builds are there inGSL anymore? Sometimes i feel that the preparation time of GSL is hugely overplayed. So these players really need weeks to prepare builds for a given opponent? As i said earlier, there can be sniper builds in weekenders. Serral vs Dark in IEM, Serral vs Maru in Dallas, where Serral’s game was optimized to kill Maru before lategame. Are those not the exact skills you need to do well in GSL?
sOs also had many sniper builds in weekenders like proxy 2 gate vs herO, but he still never got the same success in GSL.
It's not as easy as "sometimes he has a good prepared build so obviously he'd do well in the preparation format".
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On June 07 2024 17:04 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2024 16:53 HeroSandro wrote:On June 07 2024 16:35 Charoisaur wrote:On June 07 2024 10:28 Perceivere wrote:On June 07 2024 09:23 Starcloud wrote:On June 07 2024 02:05 Poopi wrote:
Do you realize GuMiho managed to punch above his weight multiple times vs various zergs, including Serral, in the past?
That's GSL for you. Low ping, highly prepared players.
I think GSL is definetely more volatile that the weekend tournaments. And also its hard to say exactly how well Serral would fare if he ever participated in those. However; Maru is the king of GSL. Serral has no problems defeating him atm. He has actually not much difficulties to defeating anyone in the planet. Of course that cant be straight compared to GSL, but I think its safe to say he has a good chance of winning multiple trophies if he ever wanted to participate. Also, when people are talking about these build order things; how often have you seen Serral get surprised lately ? He is imo by far the best scout of all players out there and one of the best defenders also. If we get to lategame he is also the best player out there. The most difficulties that get Serral to troubles are if you can surprise him(Dark/Reynor), bate him to for example either drone too much or make too much defense too early (Solar?) or just keep immense pressure almost whole game (Clem/Inno). And how many people outside of whom I mentioned here can do that perfectly enough to get him out ? Also people comparing him to Reynor for example is laughable. Dont get me wrong, I love Reynor and he is a great player, but especially for last few years he has been off from his normal game. And even in his peak, Reynor is much more vulnerable to different strategies and all-ins. On June 07 2024 02:05 Poopi wrote:
When in the ESL you have to beat several lower level pros before you encounter the few players that might take a few games versus you. The format from ESLs are such that it's almost impossible to place badly if you are among the contenders, whereas in GSL top contenders failed to get past group stage time and time again. Thats a bit condensending towards many players. Of course GSL is more stacked than EU, but players like HeroMarine, Lambo, MaxPax, ShowTime arent that far off from players in GSL rounds. And then there are the usuals Clem and Reynor, which can be championship caliber opponents. TLDR; Yes, GSL is more volatile and has better playerbase. That doesnt mean that it would affect much on the results Serral is getting elsewhere, especially since he dominates the scene. "Maru is the king of GSL. Serral has no problems defeating him atm. He has actually not much difficulties to defeating anyone in the planet. Of course that cant be straight compared to GSL, but I think its safe to say he has a good chance of winning multiple trophies if he ever wanted to participate." Just imagine having an 11 games streak, and, 85%-ish in offline winrate, against the best Korean while outside of Korean, but then magically no longer being favored against him on his home soil. Imagine have an overwhelmingly favorable winrate against all of the Koreans abroad, and then no longer being favored by the magic of "preparation tournament" voodoo. I mean, why would anyone ever prep for Serral? That'd be stupid, he's only the favorite player of ever tournament. No, you must only ever prep when you're playing in GSL against players who include B-tiers. You don't prep for the only SSS-tier player, because there is no logical reason to do any of such thing for a weekender. lol Silly foreigners thinking they actually can survive in the harshest gaming environment in the universe—Korea. That GSL v TW was clearly just a fluke. The other one, too. Maybe he should get tips from Scarlett, Special, and Neeb on how they managed to at least come close to sniffing the holy grail that is a GSL trophy while being much weaker players during periods of SC2 that were " tHe MoSt CoMpEtITiVe HURRR." Maru GOAT! End this silly debate. No one can be called GOAT for dominating an era where the tRuE gOaT is injured and can't practice 12 hrs/day like he used to in superior training sessions provided by teamhouses. We all know teamhouses produce the best players, because Serral showed us all that his teamhou—oh, wait... I mean, it's a proven fact that some players struggle more in the preparation format and some in the weekender format. Solar was for a time really strong in weekenders but couldn't even advance to the playoffs in GSL. TaeJa couldn't even win WCS NA (which was a preparation tournament) while dominating every other weekender). sOs has won a 3 world championships but couldn't win a single GSL. Reynor couldn't advance from the groupstage in 3 attempts against players he'd usually be favored against. I'm not saying Serral would definitely perform badly in the GSL, but the tournament clearly requires a different skillset and unless Serral plays in it we can't just assume how he'd perform. How many speciality builds are there inGSL anymore? Sometimes i feel that the preparation time of GSL is hugely overplayed. So these players really need weeks to prepare builds for a given opponent? As i said earlier, there can be sniper builds in weekenders. Serral vs Dark in IEM, Serral vs Maru in Dallas, where Serral’s game was optimized to kill Maru before lategame. Are those not the exact skills you need to do well in GSL? sOs also had many sniper builds in weekenders like proxy 2 gate vs herO, but he still never got the same success in GSL. It's not as easy as "sometimes he has a good prepared build so obviously he'd do well in the preparation format".
sOs never won two premier tournaments in a row loosing three maps. What i’m saying is that Serral has shown he can prepare against an opponent and has an absurd win-rate vs GSL-players. There is never going to be absolute proof, that Serral would do well in GSL, but the evidence we have tilts heavily to yes.
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On June 07 2024 14:19 FataLe wrote:[
Even the collective hive mind of jin air couldn't help sOs be bulldozed by a lonely ByuN
Also don't forget Innovation a few seasons later.
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On June 07 2024 16:35 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2024 10:28 Perceivere wrote:On June 07 2024 09:23 Starcloud wrote:On June 07 2024 02:05 Poopi wrote:
Do you realize GuMiho managed to punch above his weight multiple times vs various zergs, including Serral, in the past?
That's GSL for you. Low ping, highly prepared players.
I think GSL is definetely more volatile that the weekend tournaments. And also its hard to say exactly how well Serral would fare if he ever participated in those. However; Maru is the king of GSL. Serral has no problems defeating him atm. He has actually not much difficulties to defeating anyone in the planet. Of course that cant be straight compared to GSL, but I think its safe to say he has a good chance of winning multiple trophies if he ever wanted to participate. Also, when people are talking about these build order things; how often have you seen Serral get surprised lately ? He is imo by far the best scout of all players out there and one of the best defenders also. If we get to lategame he is also the best player out there. The most difficulties that get Serral to troubles are if you can surprise him(Dark/Reynor), bate him to for example either drone too much or make too much defense too early (Solar?) or just keep immense pressure almost whole game (Clem/Inno). And how many people outside of whom I mentioned here can do that perfectly enough to get him out ? Also people comparing him to Reynor for example is laughable. Dont get me wrong, I love Reynor and he is a great player, but especially for last few years he has been off from his normal game. And even in his peak, Reynor is much more vulnerable to different strategies and all-ins. On June 07 2024 02:05 Poopi wrote:
When in the ESL you have to beat several lower level pros before you encounter the few players that might take a few games versus you. The format from ESLs are such that it's almost impossible to place badly if you are among the contenders, whereas in GSL top contenders failed to get past group stage time and time again. Thats a bit condensending towards many players. Of course GSL is more stacked than EU, but players like HeroMarine, Lambo, MaxPax, ShowTime arent that far off from players in GSL rounds. And then there are the usuals Clem and Reynor, which can be championship caliber opponents. TLDR; Yes, GSL is more volatile and has better playerbase. That doesnt mean that it would affect much on the results Serral is getting elsewhere, especially since he dominates the scene. "Maru is the king of GSL. Serral has no problems defeating him atm. He has actually not much difficulties to defeating anyone in the planet. Of course that cant be straight compared to GSL, but I think its safe to say he has a good chance of winning multiple trophies if he ever wanted to participate." Just imagine having an 11 games streak, and, 85%-ish in offline winrate, against the best Korean while outside of Korean, but then magically no longer being favored against him on his home soil. Imagine have an overwhelmingly favorable winrate against all of the Koreans abroad, and then no longer being favored by the magic of "preparation tournament" voodoo. I mean, why would anyone ever prep for Serral? That'd be stupid, he's only the favorite player of ever tournament. No, you must only ever prep when you're playing in GSL against players who include B-tiers. You don't prep for the only SSS-tier player, because there is no logical reason to do any of such thing for a weekender. lol Silly foreigners thinking they actually can survive in the harshest gaming environment in the universe—Korea. That GSL v TW was clearly just a fluke. The other one, too. Maybe he should get tips from Scarlett, Special, and Neeb on how they managed to at least come close to sniffing the holy grail that is a GSL trophy while being much weaker players during periods of SC2 that were " tHe MoSt CoMpEtITiVe HURRR." Maru GOAT! End this silly debate. No one can be called GOAT for dominating an era where the tRuE gOaT is injured and can't practice 12 hrs/day like he used to in superior training sessions provided by teamhouses. We all know teamhouses produce the best players, because Serral showed us all that his teamhou—oh, wait... I mean, it's a proven fact that some players struggle more in the preparation format and some in the weekender format. Solar was for a time really strong in weekenders but couldn't even advance to the playoffs in GSL. TaeJa couldn't even win WCS NA (which was a preparation tournament) while dominating every other weekender). sOs has won a 3 world championships but couldn't win a single GSL. Reynor couldn't advance from the groupstage in 3 attempts against players he'd usually be favored against. I'm not saying Serral would definitely perform badly in the GSL, but the tournament clearly requires a different skillset and unless Serral plays in it we can't just assume how he'd perform.
Ofc we can assume. That's exactly what assumptions are: Take the evidence at hand and project it onto another field and then ultimately test it. Shame the last part isn't gonna happen but the assumption that Serral would win if he entered has a very strong case and evidence to back it up
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France12904 Posts
On June 07 2024 18:04 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2024 16:35 Charoisaur wrote:On June 07 2024 10:28 Perceivere wrote:On June 07 2024 09:23 Starcloud wrote:On June 07 2024 02:05 Poopi wrote:
Do you realize GuMiho managed to punch above his weight multiple times vs various zergs, including Serral, in the past?
That's GSL for you. Low ping, highly prepared players.
I think GSL is definetely more volatile that the weekend tournaments. And also its hard to say exactly how well Serral would fare if he ever participated in those. However; Maru is the king of GSL. Serral has no problems defeating him atm. He has actually not much difficulties to defeating anyone in the planet. Of course that cant be straight compared to GSL, but I think its safe to say he has a good chance of winning multiple trophies if he ever wanted to participate. Also, when people are talking about these build order things; how often have you seen Serral get surprised lately ? He is imo by far the best scout of all players out there and one of the best defenders also. If we get to lategame he is also the best player out there. The most difficulties that get Serral to troubles are if you can surprise him(Dark/Reynor), bate him to for example either drone too much or make too much defense too early (Solar?) or just keep immense pressure almost whole game (Clem/Inno). And how many people outside of whom I mentioned here can do that perfectly enough to get him out ? Also people comparing him to Reynor for example is laughable. Dont get me wrong, I love Reynor and he is a great player, but especially for last few years he has been off from his normal game. And even in his peak, Reynor is much more vulnerable to different strategies and all-ins. On June 07 2024 02:05 Poopi wrote:
When in the ESL you have to beat several lower level pros before you encounter the few players that might take a few games versus you. The format from ESLs are such that it's almost impossible to place badly if you are among the contenders, whereas in GSL top contenders failed to get past group stage time and time again. Thats a bit condensending towards many players. Of course GSL is more stacked than EU, but players like HeroMarine, Lambo, MaxPax, ShowTime arent that far off from players in GSL rounds. And then there are the usuals Clem and Reynor, which can be championship caliber opponents. TLDR; Yes, GSL is more volatile and has better playerbase. That doesnt mean that it would affect much on the results Serral is getting elsewhere, especially since he dominates the scene. "Maru is the king of GSL. Serral has no problems defeating him atm. He has actually not much difficulties to defeating anyone in the planet. Of course that cant be straight compared to GSL, but I think its safe to say he has a good chance of winning multiple trophies if he ever wanted to participate." Just imagine having an 11 games streak, and, 85%-ish in offline winrate, against the best Korean while outside of Korean, but then magically no longer being favored against him on his home soil. Imagine have an overwhelmingly favorable winrate against all of the Koreans abroad, and then no longer being favored by the magic of "preparation tournament" voodoo. I mean, why would anyone ever prep for Serral? That'd be stupid, he's only the favorite player of ever tournament. No, you must only ever prep when you're playing in GSL against players who include B-tiers. You don't prep for the only SSS-tier player, because there is no logical reason to do any of such thing for a weekender. lol Silly foreigners thinking they actually can survive in the harshest gaming environment in the universe—Korea. That GSL v TW was clearly just a fluke. The other one, too. Maybe he should get tips from Scarlett, Special, and Neeb on how they managed to at least come close to sniffing the holy grail that is a GSL trophy while being much weaker players during periods of SC2 that were " tHe MoSt CoMpEtITiVe HURRR." Maru GOAT! End this silly debate. No one can be called GOAT for dominating an era where the tRuE gOaT is injured and can't practice 12 hrs/day like he used to in superior training sessions provided by teamhouses. We all know teamhouses produce the best players, because Serral showed us all that his teamhou—oh, wait... I mean, it's a proven fact that some players struggle more in the preparation format and some in the weekender format. Solar was for a time really strong in weekenders but couldn't even advance to the playoffs in GSL. TaeJa couldn't even win WCS NA (which was a preparation tournament) while dominating every other weekender). sOs has won a 3 world championships but couldn't win a single GSL. Reynor couldn't advance from the groupstage in 3 attempts against players he'd usually be favored against. I'm not saying Serral would definitely perform badly in the GSL, but the tournament clearly requires a different skillset and unless Serral plays in it we can't just assume how he'd perform. Ofc we can assume. That's exactly what assumptions are: Take the evidence at hand and project it onto another field and then ultimately test it. Shame the last part isn't gonna happen but the assumption that Serral would win if he entered has a very strong case and evidence to back it up
As JJH77 posted somewhere else, Serral most likely could win GSLs from 2022 onwards, but before that, it was far from a certain thing given the results that happened.
It would have been interesting but we didn’t get to see it
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On June 07 2024 04:14 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2024 03:40 WombaT wrote:On June 06 2024 20:33 Scarlett` wrote:On June 06 2024 17:46 swarminfestor wrote:On June 06 2024 14:42 LukaMav wrote:
Fun fact:
Serral would win more GSL’s than Maru winning ESL’s if they switch places Serral never tested in preparation format of offline premier tournament involving at least three or four weeks stay in that location of tournament. We never know how he will react when someone pickup him as opponent in the group stage or how his opponents will prepare against him because he just makes a first attempt so he will be unseeded. Out of all foreigners competing in GSL, only Neeb, Scarlett, Special and Reynor had experience this kind of things while Serral has never done it yet. So it is kind of premature thing to predict what happens unless he tries first. Much of weekender tournaments Serral participating comes from his right as the first seed (and also bracket luck unfortunately) so he has more access to be matched against a lower seed opponent. If anything the GSL format is better for Serral than a weekend event Also I asked Byun about his GSL quote "Serral is the GOAT" and he said it was serious not a joke It seems the pros are more uniformly in the Serral is the GOAT camp, least from quotes I’ve heard. I suppose part of that is having to play him, part is having the pro’s expertise to notice small things in his gameplay others might miss. I wonder if part of it is also that pros maybe value different tournaments a bit differently as well? Prestige doesn’t pay the bills and all that Like sure Serral isn’t playing in GSL but he sure hoovers up a lot of prize money from many other tournaments that other pros would rather have in their bank balances Using prize money as a metric for goodness is absurd given the payouts change yearly. Sometimes the money is more spread out. Sometimes it isn't. There are region locked events or invitationals and all sorts of things that could affect the amount a player wins. I know I got baited, but in general it's one of the worst arguments there is.
Yeah I completly agree with this. Whoever wins the esports world cup would shoot up dramatically after just winning 1 tournament. It's just a bad metric.
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United States1901 Posts
On June 07 2024 14:19 FataLe wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2024 10:28 Perceivere wrote:On June 07 2024 09:23 Starcloud wrote:On June 07 2024 02:05 Poopi wrote:
Do you realize GuMiho managed to punch above his weight multiple times vs various zergs, including Serral, in the past?
That's GSL for you. Low ping, highly prepared players.
I think GSL is definetely more volatile that the weekend tournaments. And also its hard to say exactly how well Serral would fare if he ever participated in those. However; Maru is the king of GSL. Serral has no problems defeating him atm. He has actually not much difficulties to defeating anyone in the planet. Of course that cant be straight compared to GSL, but I think its safe to say he has a good chance of winning multiple trophies if he ever wanted to participate. Also, when people are talking about these build order things; how often have you seen Serral get surprised lately ? He is imo by far the best scout of all players out there and one of the best defenders also. If we get to lategame he is also the best player out there. The most difficulties that get Serral to troubles are if you can surprise him(Dark/Reynor), bate him to for example either drone too much or make too much defense too early (Solar?) or just keep immense pressure almost whole game (Clem/Inno). And how many people outside of whom I mentioned here can do that perfectly enough to get him out ? Also people comparing him to Reynor for example is laughable. Dont get me wrong, I love Reynor and he is a great player, but especially for last few years he has been off from his normal game. And even in his peak, Reynor is much more vulnerable to different strategies and all-ins. On June 07 2024 02:05 Poopi wrote:
When in the ESL you have to beat several lower level pros before you encounter the few players that might take a few games versus you. The format from ESLs are such that it's almost impossible to place badly if you are among the contenders, whereas in GSL top contenders failed to get past group stage time and time again. Thats a bit condensending towards many players. Of course GSL is more stacked than EU, but players like HeroMarine, Lambo, MaxPax, ShowTime arent that far off from players in GSL rounds. And then there are the usuals Clem and Reynor, which can be championship caliber opponents. TLDR; Yes, GSL is more volatile and has better playerbase. That doesnt mean that it would affect much on the results Serral is getting elsewhere, especially since he dominates the scene. "Maru is the king of GSL. Serral has no problems defeating him atm. He has actually not much difficulties to defeating anyone in the planet. Of course that cant be straight compared to GSL, but I think its safe to say he has a good chance of winning multiple trophies if he ever wanted to participate." Just imagine having an 11 games streak, and, 85%-ish in offline winrate, against the best Korean while outside of Korean, but then magically no longer being favored against him on his home soil. Imagine have an overwhelmingly favorable winrate against all of the Koreans abroad, and then no longer being favored by the magic of "preparation tournament" voodoo. I mean, why would anyone ever prep for Serral? That'd be stupid, he's only the favorite player of ever tournament. No, you must only ever prep when you're playing in GSL against players who include B-tiers. You don't prep for the only SSS-tier player, because there is no logical reason to do any of such thing for a weekender. lol Silly foreigners thinking they actually can survive in the harshest gaming environment in the universe—Korea. That GSL v TW was clearly just a fluke. The other one, too. Maybe he should get tips from Scarlett, Special, and Neeb on how they managed to at least come close to sniffing the holy grail that is a GSL trophy while being much weaker players during periods of SC2 that were " tHe MoSt CoMpEtITiVe HURRR." Maru GOAT! End this silly debate. No one can be called GOAT for dominating an era where the tRuE gOaT is injured and can't practice 12 hrs/day like he used to in superior training sessions provided by teamhouses. We all know teamhouses produce the best players, because Serral showed us all that his teamhou—oh, wait... Even the collective hive mind of jin air couldn't help sOs be bulldozed by a lonely ByuN
You clearly misunderstand that situation and the role of team houses in general.
1) ByuN had regular practice partners at the time. Being teamless just meant he was missing out on salary.
2) Proleague ended right around this time. The players had known it was coming for a few months already and, as we saw in the Jin Air/KT final, Some players (all of kt) rolled over and gave up.
3) When you are on a proleague team your job is to play in proleague. If the coaches determined that sOs needed to prepare for proleague (this happened with soO in 2014 against classic), he would have to do so.
4) Since ByuN wasn't bound by the team structure, he could find practice partners from all over and could ladder as much as he wanted. It's extremely likely he practiced far more than sOs.
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On June 07 2024 00:50 JJH777 wrote:
Zerg has also always underperformed in GSL relative to weekenders, even before Serral was around, I doubt Serral could break the trend to a significant degree. He would win a few seasons but I don't see him winning 8. In 2018 I'm confident he wouldn't have won one. 2019 would all come down to him vs Rogue and Dark. 2020 he'd have a hard time in season 1, Zerg was struggling to adapt to the new changes vs both T/P at the time. Season 2 would probably be him vs Rogue in the finals and he might win season 3. 2021 Serral struggled with a lot of players including Rogue, Trap, Maru, and Dark. 2022 forward he'd start winning regularly.
These GSL hypotheticals are pretty silly to be honest. There's no real way to know how he would perform. It's definitely dumb to think he wouldn't be one of the favorites probably every time 2018 onwards, but who knows besides that.
I personally think he would probably wreck face more than Maru, in that if you put him in every GSL 2018 onwards he probably would amass more GSLs than Maru (not that he would have 9 GSLs), but there's no way to prove that one way or the other.
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On June 06 2024 14:42 LukaMav wrote:
Fun fact:
Serral would win more GSL’s than Maru winning ESL’s if they switch places
Under your scenario, if Maru had never play any international events he would be clearly the goat, as it is likely he would have won some. Yet, he didn't because he actually did play on them.
You are penalizing someone for actually competing and showing results vs someone not doing so and just extrapolating instead, very silly.
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EPT
