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On June 07 2024 00:50 JJH777 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2024 14:42 LukaMav wrote:
Fun fact:
Serral would win more GSL’s than Maru winning ESL’s if they switch places Doubtful considering they are counting EU regionals and Maru has higher winrates vs Reynor and Clem than Serral does. Unless you think Maru's winrate vs Clem/Reynor would drop if he played them in their home scene regularly (which I don't think is unreasonable) but if that's the case why isn't it also reasonable to say Maru would do better against Serral in Korea than he does internationally? Zerg has also always underperformed in GSL relative to weekenders, even before Serral was around, I doubt Serral could break the trend to a significant degree. He would win a few seasons but I don't see him winning 8. In 2018 I'm confident he wouldn't have won one. 2019 would all come down to him vs Rogue and Dark. 2020 he'd have a hard time in season 1, Zerg was struggling to adapt to the new changes vs both T/P at the time. Season 2 would probably be him vs Rogue in the finals and he might win season 3. 2021 Serral struggled with a lot of players including Rogue, Trap, Maru, and Dark. 2022 forward he'd start winning regularly.
Maru’s win rate against Reynor is similar to Serral (10-5 and 30-16) and somehow better vs Clem than Serral (9-2 to 29-14)provided Clem’s TVT skill is catastrophically worse than his TVZ.
Comparing other zergs witty Serral is even more ridiculous, after you saw the performance of Dark vs Maru. Also I don’t like to make the judgements based on nothing, or your imagination.
What I only know is Maru has been defeated by Serral in 7 consecutive bo5+ series I don’t care what the tournaments are but that’s all.
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On June 06 2024 20:33 Scarlett` wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2024 17:46 swarminfestor wrote:On June 06 2024 14:42 LukaMav wrote:
Fun fact:
Serral would win more GSL’s than Maru winning ESL’s if they switch places Serral never tested in preparation format of offline premier tournament involving at least three or four weeks stay in that location of tournament. We never know how he will react when someone pickup him as opponent in the group stage or how his opponents will prepare against him because he just makes a first attempt so he will be unseeded. Out of all foreigners competing in GSL, only Neeb, Scarlett, Special and Reynor had experience this kind of things while Serral has never done it yet. So it is kind of premature thing to predict what happens unless he tries first. Much of weekender tournaments Serral participating comes from his right as the first seed (and also bracket luck unfortunately) so he has more access to be matched against a lower seed opponent. If anything the GSL format is better for Serral than a weekend event Also I asked Byun about his GSL quote "Serral is the GOAT" and he said it was serious not a joke
You could be right, but given how dang dominant Serral has been at weekenders, seems unlikely. We do know the prep format has caused problems for Reynor, who has crushed weekenders...
One thing that's a big change in GSL is that now they do the semis and finals on the same day, which is I think the biggest format change away from being a preparation-based tournament of all the GSL format changes over the years. I think this makes it more likely that Serral could pretty easily take down a GSL if he tried.
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France12758 Posts
On June 07 2024 01:17 njleslu2024 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2024 00:50 JJH777 wrote:On June 06 2024 14:42 LukaMav wrote:
Fun fact:
Serral would win more GSL’s than Maru winning ESL’s if they switch places Doubtful considering they are counting EU regionals and Maru has higher winrates vs Reynor and Clem than Serral does. Unless you think Maru's winrate vs Clem/Reynor would drop if he played them in their home scene regularly (which I don't think is unreasonable) but if that's the case why isn't it also reasonable to say Maru would do better against Serral in Korea than he does internationally? Zerg has also always underperformed in GSL relative to weekenders, even before Serral was around, I doubt Serral could break the trend to a significant degree. He would win a few seasons but I don't see him winning 8. In 2018 I'm confident he wouldn't have won one. 2019 would all come down to him vs Rogue and Dark. 2020 he'd have a hard time in season 1, Zerg was struggling to adapt to the new changes vs both T/P at the time. Season 2 would probably be him vs Rogue in the finals and he might win season 3. 2021 Serral struggled with a lot of players including Rogue, Trap, Maru, and Dark. 2022 forward he'd start winning regularly. Maru’s win rate against Reynor is similar to Serral (10-5 and 30-16) and somehow better vs Clem than Serral (9-2 to 29-14)provided Clem’s TVT skill is catastrophically worse than his TVZ. Comparing other zergs witty Serral is even more ridiculous, after you saw the performance of Dark vs Maru.
His post is particularly pertinent (imho), because he put things into context of each period -> 2019 zerg was completely OP, and the best ZvZ players at the time were both Reynor and Dark (cf. BlizzCon), and probably Rogue and Dark in Korea. In 2020 in Korea the terrans / protoss were able to leverage the effect of the post blizzcon patch to win titles (see TY who beneffited from his great TvT skills and won GSL during that year), etc.
So to summarize, his post is good, I agree with it overall, but am currently too lazy / low energy to use more words in order to thoroughly explain why I think his post is good, so I hope it'll be enough.
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On June 07 2024 01:17 rwala wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2024 20:33 Scarlett` wrote:On June 06 2024 17:46 swarminfestor wrote:On June 06 2024 14:42 LukaMav wrote:
Fun fact:
Serral would win more GSL’s than Maru winning ESL’s if they switch places Serral never tested in preparation format of offline premier tournament involving at least three or four weeks stay in that location of tournament. We never know how he will react when someone pickup him as opponent in the group stage or how his opponents will prepare against him because he just makes a first attempt so he will be unseeded. Out of all foreigners competing in GSL, only Neeb, Scarlett, Special and Reynor had experience this kind of things while Serral has never done it yet. So it is kind of premature thing to predict what happens unless he tries first. Much of weekender tournaments Serral participating comes from his right as the first seed (and also bracket luck unfortunately) so he has more access to be matched against a lower seed opponent. If anything the GSL format is better for Serral than a weekend event Also I asked Byun about his GSL quote "Serral is the GOAT" and he said it was serious not a joke You could be right, but given how dang dominant Serral has been at weekenders, seems unlikely. We do know the prep format has caused problems for Reynor, who has crushed weekenders... One thing that's a big change in GSL is that now they do the semis and finals on the same day, which is I think the biggest format change away from being a preparation-based tournament of all the GSL format changes over the years. I think this makes it more likely that Serral could pretty easily take down a GSL if he tried.
Reynor is not comparable with Serral at all, not even close. When he got crashed from GSL he also failed in starswar and IEM
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On June 07 2024 01:20 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2024 01:17 njleslu2024 wrote:On June 07 2024 00:50 JJH777 wrote:On June 06 2024 14:42 LukaMav wrote:
Fun fact:
Serral would win more GSL’s than Maru winning ESL’s if they switch places Doubtful considering they are counting EU regionals and Maru has higher winrates vs Reynor and Clem than Serral does. Unless you think Maru's winrate vs Clem/Reynor would drop if he played them in their home scene regularly (which I don't think is unreasonable) but if that's the case why isn't it also reasonable to say Maru would do better against Serral in Korea than he does internationally? Zerg has also always underperformed in GSL relative to weekenders, even before Serral was around, I doubt Serral could break the trend to a significant degree. He would win a few seasons but I don't see him winning 8. In 2018 I'm confident he wouldn't have won one. 2019 would all come down to him vs Rogue and Dark. 2020 he'd have a hard time in season 1, Zerg was struggling to adapt to the new changes vs both T/P at the time. Season 2 would probably be him vs Rogue in the finals and he might win season 3. 2021 Serral struggled with a lot of players including Rogue, Trap, Maru, and Dark. 2022 forward he'd start winning regularly. Maru’s win rate against Reynor is similar to Serral (10-5 and 30-16) and somehow better vs Clem than Serral (9-2 to 29-14)provided Clem’s TVT skill is catastrophically worse than his TVZ. Comparing other zergs witty Serral is even more ridiculous, after you saw the performance of Dark vs Maru. His post is particularly pertinent (imho), because he put things into context of each period -> 2019 zerg was completely OP, and the best ZvZ players at the time were both Reynor and Dark (cf. BlizzCon), and probably Rogue and Dark in Korea. In 2020 in Korea the terrans / protoss were able to leverage the effect of the post blizzcon patch to win titles (see TY who beneffited from his great TvT skills and won GSL during that year), etc. So to summarize, his post is good, I agree with it overall, but am currently too lazy / low energy to use more words in order to thoroughly explain why I think his post is good, so I hope it'll be enough.
Hmmm? So did Maru win any GSL during 2019 S2 to 2022 S3?
Rogue is definitely outperforming him in GSL during this era.
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So, the prep tournament argument is even more ridiculous, this is a bad copium.
Many people larguing Serral never participated in the long-prep tournaments are not really arguing for the prestigiousness for GSL, but because it's the only and last reason to question Serral's domination, otherwise Joona has way too many trophies and the best win rate, these are hard score which is even more irrefutable..
And I think long-prep and designing the targeted build for some players are not nerfing Serral, but even making him stronger.. I know players in GSL will spend time designing some targeted builds against him. But don't forget Serral will do the same. Also I don't think weekend tournaments don't contain any **targeted builds** against Serral, cuz Serral is usually the most (or at least one of) feared players in the games. People aiming for champions like Maru, herO, Clem, Dark and Reynor, these guys have no reasons not preping the matches against Serral, before the tournament... But the results show us the same, Serral is still the one who won the most.
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France12758 Posts
On June 07 2024 01:24 njleslu2024 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2024 01:20 Poopi wrote:On June 07 2024 01:17 njleslu2024 wrote:On June 07 2024 00:50 JJH777 wrote:On June 06 2024 14:42 LukaMav wrote:
Fun fact:
Serral would win more GSL’s than Maru winning ESL’s if they switch places Doubtful considering they are counting EU regionals and Maru has higher winrates vs Reynor and Clem than Serral does. Unless you think Maru's winrate vs Clem/Reynor would drop if he played them in their home scene regularly (which I don't think is unreasonable) but if that's the case why isn't it also reasonable to say Maru would do better against Serral in Korea than he does internationally? Zerg has also always underperformed in GSL relative to weekenders, even before Serral was around, I doubt Serral could break the trend to a significant degree. He would win a few seasons but I don't see him winning 8. In 2018 I'm confident he wouldn't have won one. 2019 would all come down to him vs Rogue and Dark. 2020 he'd have a hard time in season 1, Zerg was struggling to adapt to the new changes vs both T/P at the time. Season 2 would probably be him vs Rogue in the finals and he might win season 3. 2021 Serral struggled with a lot of players including Rogue, Trap, Maru, and Dark. 2022 forward he'd start winning regularly. Maru’s win rate against Reynor is similar to Serral (10-5 and 30-16) and somehow better vs Clem than Serral (9-2 to 29-14)provided Clem’s TVT skill is catastrophically worse than his TVZ. Comparing other zergs witty Serral is even more ridiculous, after you saw the performance of Dark vs Maru. His post is particularly pertinent (imho), because he put things into context of each period -> 2019 zerg was completely OP, and the best ZvZ players at the time were both Reynor and Dark (cf. BlizzCon), and probably Rogue and Dark in Korea. In 2020 in Korea the terrans / protoss were able to leverage the effect of the post blizzcon patch to win titles (see TY who beneffited from his great TvT skills and won GSL during that year), etc. So to summarize, his post is good, I agree with it overall, but am currently too lazy / low energy to use more words in order to thoroughly explain why I think his post is good, so I hope it'll be enough. Hmmm? So did Maru win any GSL during 2019 S2 to 2022 S3? Rogue is definitely outperforming him in GSL during this era.
And other zergs and/or players were also outperforming Serral during this era, that's kind of the point
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On June 07 2024 01:21 njleslu2024 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2024 01:17 rwala wrote:On June 06 2024 20:33 Scarlett` wrote:On June 06 2024 17:46 swarminfestor wrote:On June 06 2024 14:42 LukaMav wrote:
Fun fact:
Serral would win more GSL’s than Maru winning ESL’s if they switch places Serral never tested in preparation format of offline premier tournament involving at least three or four weeks stay in that location of tournament. We never know how he will react when someone pickup him as opponent in the group stage or how his opponents will prepare against him because he just makes a first attempt so he will be unseeded. Out of all foreigners competing in GSL, only Neeb, Scarlett, Special and Reynor had experience this kind of things while Serral has never done it yet. So it is kind of premature thing to predict what happens unless he tries first. Much of weekender tournaments Serral participating comes from his right as the first seed (and also bracket luck unfortunately) so he has more access to be matched against a lower seed opponent. If anything the GSL format is better for Serral than a weekend event Also I asked Byun about his GSL quote "Serral is the GOAT" and he said it was serious not a joke You could be right, but given how dang dominant Serral has been at weekenders, seems unlikely. We do know the prep format has caused problems for Reynor, who has crushed weekenders... One thing that's a big change in GSL is that now they do the semis and finals on the same day, which is I think the biggest format change away from being a preparation-based tournament of all the GSL format changes over the years. I think this makes it more likely that Serral could pretty easily take down a GSL if he tried. Reynor is not comparable with Serral at all, not even close. When he got crashed from GSL he also failed in starswar and IEM
My point is not that Reynor is equivalent to Serral (he's not), but just that he has crushed many weekender tourneys, and taken down Serral many times in the process, presumably because he is among the best "prepared" for Serral. Artosis talked to Gumiho, who explained how he defeated Reynor with prep, and there's no question that Reynor underperformed in his GSL group. Prep versus weekender tournament format differences are definitely a real thing. How much weight one puts on these format considerations is another matter.
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On June 07 2024 01:52 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2024 01:24 njleslu2024 wrote:On June 07 2024 01:20 Poopi wrote:On June 07 2024 01:17 njleslu2024 wrote:On June 07 2024 00:50 JJH777 wrote:On June 06 2024 14:42 LukaMav wrote:
Fun fact:
Serral would win more GSL’s than Maru winning ESL’s if they switch places Doubtful considering they are counting EU regionals and Maru has higher winrates vs Reynor and Clem than Serral does. Unless you think Maru's winrate vs Clem/Reynor would drop if he played them in their home scene regularly (which I don't think is unreasonable) but if that's the case why isn't it also reasonable to say Maru would do better against Serral in Korea than he does internationally? Zerg has also always underperformed in GSL relative to weekenders, even before Serral was around, I doubt Serral could break the trend to a significant degree. He would win a few seasons but I don't see him winning 8. In 2018 I'm confident he wouldn't have won one. 2019 would all come down to him vs Rogue and Dark. 2020 he'd have a hard time in season 1, Zerg was struggling to adapt to the new changes vs both T/P at the time. Season 2 would probably be him vs Rogue in the finals and he might win season 3. 2021 Serral struggled with a lot of players including Rogue, Trap, Maru, and Dark. 2022 forward he'd start winning regularly. Maru’s win rate against Reynor is similar to Serral (10-5 and 30-16) and somehow better vs Clem than Serral (9-2 to 29-14)provided Clem’s TVT skill is catastrophically worse than his TVZ. Comparing other zergs witty Serral is even more ridiculous, after you saw the performance of Dark vs Maru. His post is particularly pertinent (imho), because he put things into context of each period -> 2019 zerg was completely OP, and the best ZvZ players at the time were both Reynor and Dark (cf. BlizzCon), and probably Rogue and Dark in Korea. In 2020 in Korea the terrans / protoss were able to leverage the effect of the post blizzcon patch to win titles (see TY who beneffited from his great TvT skills and won GSL during that year), etc. So to summarize, his post is good, I agree with it overall, but am currently too lazy / low energy to use more words in order to thoroughly explain why I think his post is good, so I hope it'll be enough. Hmmm? So did Maru win any GSL during 2019 S2 to 2022 S3? Rogue is definitely outperforming him in GSL during this era. And other zergs and/or players were also outperforming Serral during this era, that's kind of the point
Keep coping until your boy got 4-0 in the final again. Hope to see your next excuse.
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France12758 Posts
On June 07 2024 01:59 njleslu2024 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2024 01:52 Poopi wrote:On June 07 2024 01:24 njleslu2024 wrote:On June 07 2024 01:20 Poopi wrote:On June 07 2024 01:17 njleslu2024 wrote:On June 07 2024 00:50 JJH777 wrote:On June 06 2024 14:42 LukaMav wrote:
Fun fact:
Serral would win more GSL’s than Maru winning ESL’s if they switch places Doubtful considering they are counting EU regionals and Maru has higher winrates vs Reynor and Clem than Serral does. Unless you think Maru's winrate vs Clem/Reynor would drop if he played them in their home scene regularly (which I don't think is unreasonable) but if that's the case why isn't it also reasonable to say Maru would do better against Serral in Korea than he does internationally? Zerg has also always underperformed in GSL relative to weekenders, even before Serral was around, I doubt Serral could break the trend to a significant degree. He would win a few seasons but I don't see him winning 8. In 2018 I'm confident he wouldn't have won one. 2019 would all come down to him vs Rogue and Dark. 2020 he'd have a hard time in season 1, Zerg was struggling to adapt to the new changes vs both T/P at the time. Season 2 would probably be him vs Rogue in the finals and he might win season 3. 2021 Serral struggled with a lot of players including Rogue, Trap, Maru, and Dark. 2022 forward he'd start winning regularly. Maru’s win rate against Reynor is similar to Serral (10-5 and 30-16) and somehow better vs Clem than Serral (9-2 to 29-14)provided Clem’s TVT skill is catastrophically worse than his TVZ. Comparing other zergs witty Serral is even more ridiculous, after you saw the performance of Dark vs Maru. His post is particularly pertinent (imho), because he put things into context of each period -> 2019 zerg was completely OP, and the best ZvZ players at the time were both Reynor and Dark (cf. BlizzCon), and probably Rogue and Dark in Korea. In 2020 in Korea the terrans / protoss were able to leverage the effect of the post blizzcon patch to win titles (see TY who beneffited from his great TvT skills and won GSL during that year), etc. So to summarize, his post is good, I agree with it overall, but am currently too lazy / low energy to use more words in order to thoroughly explain why I think his post is good, so I hope it'll be enough. Hmmm? So did Maru win any GSL during 2019 S2 to 2022 S3? Rogue is definitely outperforming him in GSL during this era. And other zergs and/or players were also outperforming Serral during this era, that's kind of the point Keep coping until your boy got 4-0 in the final again. Hope to see your next excuse.
I don't see how that would make Serral win more GSL than Maru win ESL if they switch places though 
Also, if we were to call these pro players our "boys" or our "pokemons", I have many pokemons I enjoy to see playing, I also enjoy watching Serral play for instance 
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On June 06 2024 06:58 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2024 07:34 Balnazza wrote:On June 05 2024 07:02 Argonauta wrote:On June 05 2024 06:46 PremoBeats wrote:On June 05 2024 06:44 Argonauta wrote:On June 05 2024 06:34 PremoBeats wrote:On June 04 2024 02:00 Tanukki wrote:
Maru was the top player for a longer period of time in a more competitive scene. I guess that's what is meant here by "greatest of all time".
I do, however, assume that current top pros are better than past top pros. At the top, there's still plenty of competition, they have more experience, and builds are more refined due to the longer balance patch cycle. So Serral would be the "most skilled of all time", but that's another story. Most of Maru's titles (except 2 iirc) are from 2018 onwards, which is the same time that Serral's title collecting began. So Maru was mostly the top Korean during the same time Serral was top of the world. It took Serral less time to accumulate more PT wins with top Korean participation, not counting the PT wins where only non-Koreans played. Plus, his win rates and overall statistics versus top Korean players are much better than any other players, including Koreans. According to the script now is when I have to remind you that previous the Kespa colapse, the competition was deeper and therefore was harder than now to win championships.... See? We are all walking on circles about the same arguments over and over... what we need is more good tournaments to be held more often, so we can admire good SC2 while we argue endlessly about goats and herders. Yeah, but my point is, that all top 3 people in this list mostly gathered their tournament wins in the same era. So unless people present other names than Serral, Rogue and Maru as GOAT, this Kespa argument doesn't make sense. Comparing these three means: Serral won more titles with top Korean participation in a shorter period of time, while having much better statistics (win rates, results, etc.) than the other two... only looking at games versus Koreans, not including non-Koreans players or region-locked tournaments. Again, the idea is that previous the Kespa collapse, 1 or 2 tournaments were a looooooot and Maru was considered for certain periods the best Terran in the world (people were not talking as often as the best overall player) due to his results in both proleague (which was a huuuge deal) and individual results. After the kespa collapse, yes, Maru, Serral and Rogue have been accumulating trophies at high rates, but again, overall shallower player roster is on place. If you had asked in 2015, 2016 or 2017 "Who is the best Terran of all time" no one would have said Maru. The discussion would have boiled down to "has Innovation done enough to outrank Mvp?" Maru was good, but he wasn't near the top pre-2018 with "just" two Starleagues. Marus legacy is 90% based on post-2016 results. If he had quit his career 2016/17, Mizenhauer probably wouldn't have even put him in this Top 10. This isn't true at all. If it is then Maru was criminally underrated. Maru was arguably the best Starleague player of HotS, he outperformed INno in Starleague seasons by a ratio of 2:1, and was probably the best Proleague player of SC2 (only player to be #1 or #2 in wins every season he played, and has the highest season winrate of all time) "Just two starleagues" had him literally tied for first during the kespa era. Not to mention when he was making back-to-back GSL playoffs in an era where 2 other terrans could make ro32. The only reason you might think otherwise is that he almost never played outside of Korea, western fans/casters were simply not familiar with how good he was. The famous Maru vs Life IEM finals is a good example. The casters spoke of him like it was a breakout run and were oblivious to him being the best terran in korea of the previous 2 years.
Maru didn't win anything in 2016/17 while inno won gsl, starleague, iem ext while being already considered as the best T of hots so calling maru the goat in 2017 doesn't make sense unless "intellectual dishonnesty"
Prettt crazy how people can be so enamoured with a player they forgot everything the others have achieved.
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On June 07 2024 01:53 rwala wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2024 01:21 njleslu2024 wrote:On June 07 2024 01:17 rwala wrote:On June 06 2024 20:33 Scarlett` wrote:On June 06 2024 17:46 swarminfestor wrote:On June 06 2024 14:42 LukaMav wrote:
Fun fact:
Serral would win more GSL’s than Maru winning ESL’s if they switch places Serral never tested in preparation format of offline premier tournament involving at least three or four weeks stay in that location of tournament. We never know how he will react when someone pickup him as opponent in the group stage or how his opponents will prepare against him because he just makes a first attempt so he will be unseeded. Out of all foreigners competing in GSL, only Neeb, Scarlett, Special and Reynor had experience this kind of things while Serral has never done it yet. So it is kind of premature thing to predict what happens unless he tries first. Much of weekender tournaments Serral participating comes from his right as the first seed (and also bracket luck unfortunately) so he has more access to be matched against a lower seed opponent. If anything the GSL format is better for Serral than a weekend event Also I asked Byun about his GSL quote "Serral is the GOAT" and he said it was serious not a joke You could be right, but given how dang dominant Serral has been at weekenders, seems unlikely. We do know the prep format has caused problems for Reynor, who has crushed weekenders... One thing that's a big change in GSL is that now they do the semis and finals on the same day, which is I think the biggest format change away from being a preparation-based tournament of all the GSL format changes over the years. I think this makes it more likely that Serral could pretty easily take down a GSL if he tried. Reynor is not comparable with Serral at all, not even close. When he got crashed from GSL he also failed in starswar and IEM My point is not that Reynor is equivalent to Serral (he's not), but just that he has crushed many weekender tourneys, and taken down Serral many times in the process, presumably because he is among the best "prepared" for Serral. Artosis talked to Gumiho, who explained how he defeated Reynor with prep, and there's no question that Reynor underperformed in his GSL group. Prep versus weekender tournament format differences are definitely a real thing. How much weight one puts on these format considerations is another matter.
Even Reynor got crashed 100 times from GSL is not making a difference with Serral. Reynor is a great player but has far less trophies, lower win rate and negative H2H than Serral. Even Neeb is better than him in GSL.
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France12758 Posts
On June 07 2024 02:02 njleslu2024 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2024 01:53 rwala wrote:On June 07 2024 01:21 njleslu2024 wrote:On June 07 2024 01:17 rwala wrote:On June 06 2024 20:33 Scarlett` wrote:On June 06 2024 17:46 swarminfestor wrote:On June 06 2024 14:42 LukaMav wrote:
Fun fact:
Serral would win more GSL’s than Maru winning ESL’s if they switch places Serral never tested in preparation format of offline premier tournament involving at least three or four weeks stay in that location of tournament. We never know how he will react when someone pickup him as opponent in the group stage or how his opponents will prepare against him because he just makes a first attempt so he will be unseeded. Out of all foreigners competing in GSL, only Neeb, Scarlett, Special and Reynor had experience this kind of things while Serral has never done it yet. So it is kind of premature thing to predict what happens unless he tries first. Much of weekender tournaments Serral participating comes from his right as the first seed (and also bracket luck unfortunately) so he has more access to be matched against a lower seed opponent. If anything the GSL format is better for Serral than a weekend event Also I asked Byun about his GSL quote "Serral is the GOAT" and he said it was serious not a joke You could be right, but given how dang dominant Serral has been at weekenders, seems unlikely. We do know the prep format has caused problems for Reynor, who has crushed weekenders... One thing that's a big change in GSL is that now they do the semis and finals on the same day, which is I think the biggest format change away from being a preparation-based tournament of all the GSL format changes over the years. I think this makes it more likely that Serral could pretty easily take down a GSL if he tried. Reynor is not comparable with Serral at all, not even close. When he got crashed from GSL he also failed in starswar and IEM My point is not that Reynor is equivalent to Serral (he's not), but just that he has crushed many weekender tourneys, and taken down Serral many times in the process, presumably because he is among the best "prepared" for Serral. Artosis talked to Gumiho, who explained how he defeated Reynor with prep, and there's no question that Reynor underperformed in his GSL group. Prep versus weekender tournament format differences are definitely a real thing. How much weight one puts on these format considerations is another matter. Even Reynor got crashed 100 times from GSL is not making a difference with Serral. Reynor is a great player but has far less trophies, lower win rate and negative H2H than Serral. Even Neeb is better than him in GSL.
Do you realize GuMiho managed to punch above his weight multiple times vs various zergs, including Serral, in the past?
That's GSL for you. Low ping, highly prepared players. When in the ESL you have to beat several lower level pros before you encounter the few players that might take a few games versus you. The format from ESLs are such that it's almost impossible to place badly if you are among the contenders, whereas in GSL top contenders failed to get past group stage time and time again.
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On June 07 2024 02:05 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2024 02:02 njleslu2024 wrote:On June 07 2024 01:53 rwala wrote:On June 07 2024 01:21 njleslu2024 wrote:On June 07 2024 01:17 rwala wrote:On June 06 2024 20:33 Scarlett` wrote:On June 06 2024 17:46 swarminfestor wrote:On June 06 2024 14:42 LukaMav wrote:
Fun fact:
Serral would win more GSL’s than Maru winning ESL’s if they switch places Serral never tested in preparation format of offline premier tournament involving at least three or four weeks stay in that location of tournament. We never know how he will react when someone pickup him as opponent in the group stage or how his opponents will prepare against him because he just makes a first attempt so he will be unseeded. Out of all foreigners competing in GSL, only Neeb, Scarlett, Special and Reynor had experience this kind of things while Serral has never done it yet. So it is kind of premature thing to predict what happens unless he tries first. Much of weekender tournaments Serral participating comes from his right as the first seed (and also bracket luck unfortunately) so he has more access to be matched against a lower seed opponent. If anything the GSL format is better for Serral than a weekend event Also I asked Byun about his GSL quote "Serral is the GOAT" and he said it was serious not a joke You could be right, but given how dang dominant Serral has been at weekenders, seems unlikely. We do know the prep format has caused problems for Reynor, who has crushed weekenders... One thing that's a big change in GSL is that now they do the semis and finals on the same day, which is I think the biggest format change away from being a preparation-based tournament of all the GSL format changes over the years. I think this makes it more likely that Serral could pretty easily take down a GSL if he tried. Reynor is not comparable with Serral at all, not even close. When he got crashed from GSL he also failed in starswar and IEM My point is not that Reynor is equivalent to Serral (he's not), but just that he has crushed many weekender tourneys, and taken down Serral many times in the process, presumably because he is among the best "prepared" for Serral. Artosis talked to Gumiho, who explained how he defeated Reynor with prep, and there's no question that Reynor underperformed in his GSL group. Prep versus weekender tournament format differences are definitely a real thing. How much weight one puts on these format considerations is another matter. Even Reynor got crashed 100 times from GSL is not making a difference with Serral. Reynor is a great player but has far less trophies, lower win rate and negative H2H than Serral. Even Neeb is better than him in GSL. Do you realize GuMiho managed to punch above his weight multiple times vs various zergs, including Serral, in the past? That's GSL for you. Low ping, highly prepared players. When in the ESL you have to beat several lower level pros before you encounter the few players that might take a few games versus you. The format from ESLs are such that it's almost impossible to place badly if you are among the contenders, whereas in GSL top contenders failed to get past group stage time and time again.
Then? Serral beat him 4-2 in Jokoping final, thoughGumiho did it pretty well against Serral, way better than Maru.
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On June 07 2024 02:05 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2024 02:02 njleslu2024 wrote:On June 07 2024 01:53 rwala wrote:On June 07 2024 01:21 njleslu2024 wrote:On June 07 2024 01:17 rwala wrote:On June 06 2024 20:33 Scarlett` wrote:On June 06 2024 17:46 swarminfestor wrote:On June 06 2024 14:42 LukaMav wrote:
Fun fact:
Serral would win more GSL’s than Maru winning ESL’s if they switch places Serral never tested in preparation format of offline premier tournament involving at least three or four weeks stay in that location of tournament. We never know how he will react when someone pickup him as opponent in the group stage or how his opponents will prepare against him because he just makes a first attempt so he will be unseeded. Out of all foreigners competing in GSL, only Neeb, Scarlett, Special and Reynor had experience this kind of things while Serral has never done it yet. So it is kind of premature thing to predict what happens unless he tries first. Much of weekender tournaments Serral participating comes from his right as the first seed (and also bracket luck unfortunately) so he has more access to be matched against a lower seed opponent. If anything the GSL format is better for Serral than a weekend event Also I asked Byun about his GSL quote "Serral is the GOAT" and he said it was serious not a joke You could be right, but given how dang dominant Serral has been at weekenders, seems unlikely. We do know the prep format has caused problems for Reynor, who has crushed weekenders... One thing that's a big change in GSL is that now they do the semis and finals on the same day, which is I think the biggest format change away from being a preparation-based tournament of all the GSL format changes over the years. I think this makes it more likely that Serral could pretty easily take down a GSL if he tried. Reynor is not comparable with Serral at all, not even close. When he got crashed from GSL he also failed in starswar and IEM My point is not that Reynor is equivalent to Serral (he's not), but just that he has crushed many weekender tourneys, and taken down Serral many times in the process, presumably because he is among the best "prepared" for Serral. Artosis talked to Gumiho, who explained how he defeated Reynor with prep, and there's no question that Reynor underperformed in his GSL group. Prep versus weekender tournament format differences are definitely a real thing. How much weight one puts on these format considerations is another matter. Even Reynor got crashed 100 times from GSL is not making a difference with Serral. Reynor is a great player but has far less trophies, lower win rate and negative H2H than Serral. Even Neeb is better than him in GSL. Do you realize GuMiho managed to punch above his weight multiple times vs various zergs, including Serral, in the past? That's GSL for you. Low ping, highly prepared players. When in the ESL you have to beat several lower level pros before you encounter the few players that might take a few games versus you. The format from ESLs are such that it's almost impossible to place badly if you are among the contenders, whereas in GSL top contenders failed to get past group stage time and time again.
This. I think this is a hard concept for people to understand unless they follow or play other competitive sports or strategy games. In fact, format considerations are pretty much the reason Magnus Carlsen abdicated the throne in chess. Ironically, in that case it was because he felt that the world championship format in the era of super computers had devolved into a contest of who was better prepared, rather than a contest of talent and skill.
The thing is, recognizing that tournament format matters doesn't mean that GSL is "better" than weekender tournaments (or at least I don't think that). But it does mean that one format (GSL) prioritizes strategy and meta-gaming and the other (weekender) prioritizes general skill and talent. While it's close, I tend to agree with Artosis that Rogue is the GOAT in that I think he has demonstrated the highest level of achievements in both formats. I think you can have this opinion while also saying Serral is the best, most dominant player to ever play the game.
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On June 07 2024 02:02 njleslu2024 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2024 01:53 rwala wrote:On June 07 2024 01:21 njleslu2024 wrote:On June 07 2024 01:17 rwala wrote:On June 06 2024 20:33 Scarlett` wrote:On June 06 2024 17:46 swarminfestor wrote:On June 06 2024 14:42 LukaMav wrote:
Fun fact:
Serral would win more GSL’s than Maru winning ESL’s if they switch places Serral never tested in preparation format of offline premier tournament involving at least three or four weeks stay in that location of tournament. We never know how he will react when someone pickup him as opponent in the group stage or how his opponents will prepare against him because he just makes a first attempt so he will be unseeded. Out of all foreigners competing in GSL, only Neeb, Scarlett, Special and Reynor had experience this kind of things while Serral has never done it yet. So it is kind of premature thing to predict what happens unless he tries first. Much of weekender tournaments Serral participating comes from his right as the first seed (and also bracket luck unfortunately) so he has more access to be matched against a lower seed opponent. If anything the GSL format is better for Serral than a weekend event Also I asked Byun about his GSL quote "Serral is the GOAT" and he said it was serious not a joke You could be right, but given how dang dominant Serral has been at weekenders, seems unlikely. We do know the prep format has caused problems for Reynor, who has crushed weekenders... One thing that's a big change in GSL is that now they do the semis and finals on the same day, which is I think the biggest format change away from being a preparation-based tournament of all the GSL format changes over the years. I think this makes it more likely that Serral could pretty easily take down a GSL if he tried. Reynor is not comparable with Serral at all, not even close. When he got crashed from GSL he also failed in starswar and IEM My point is not that Reynor is equivalent to Serral (he's not), but just that he has crushed many weekender tourneys, and taken down Serral many times in the process, presumably because he is among the best "prepared" for Serral. Artosis talked to Gumiho, who explained how he defeated Reynor with prep, and there's no question that Reynor underperformed in his GSL group. Prep versus weekender tournament format differences are definitely a real thing. How much weight one puts on these format considerations is another matter. Even Reynor got crashed 100 times from GSL is not making a difference with Serral. Reynor is a great player but has far less trophies, lower win rate and negative H2H than Serral. Even Neeb is better than him in GSL.
And how has Neeb done in those weekenders that Reynor won? I'm not sure you understand the implication of what you are saying.
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On June 07 2024 02:21 rwala wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2024 02:05 Poopi wrote:On June 07 2024 02:02 njleslu2024 wrote:On June 07 2024 01:53 rwala wrote:On June 07 2024 01:21 njleslu2024 wrote:On June 07 2024 01:17 rwala wrote:On June 06 2024 20:33 Scarlett` wrote:On June 06 2024 17:46 swarminfestor wrote:On June 06 2024 14:42 LukaMav wrote:
Fun fact:
Serral would win more GSL’s than Maru winning ESL’s if they switch places Serral never tested in preparation format of offline premier tournament involving at least three or four weeks stay in that location of tournament. We never know how he will react when someone pickup him as opponent in the group stage or how his opponents will prepare against him because he just makes a first attempt so he will be unseeded. Out of all foreigners competing in GSL, only Neeb, Scarlett, Special and Reynor had experience this kind of things while Serral has never done it yet. So it is kind of premature thing to predict what happens unless he tries first. Much of weekender tournaments Serral participating comes from his right as the first seed (and also bracket luck unfortunately) so he has more access to be matched against a lower seed opponent. If anything the GSL format is better for Serral than a weekend event Also I asked Byun about his GSL quote "Serral is the GOAT" and he said it was serious not a joke You could be right, but given how dang dominant Serral has been at weekenders, seems unlikely. We do know the prep format has caused problems for Reynor, who has crushed weekenders... One thing that's a big change in GSL is that now they do the semis and finals on the same day, which is I think the biggest format change away from being a preparation-based tournament of all the GSL format changes over the years. I think this makes it more likely that Serral could pretty easily take down a GSL if he tried. Reynor is not comparable with Serral at all, not even close. When he got crashed from GSL he also failed in starswar and IEM My point is not that Reynor is equivalent to Serral (he's not), but just that he has crushed many weekender tourneys, and taken down Serral many times in the process, presumably because he is among the best "prepared" for Serral. Artosis talked to Gumiho, who explained how he defeated Reynor with prep, and there's no question that Reynor underperformed in his GSL group. Prep versus weekender tournament format differences are definitely a real thing. How much weight one puts on these format considerations is another matter. Even Reynor got crashed 100 times from GSL is not making a difference with Serral. Reynor is a great player but has far less trophies, lower win rate and negative H2H than Serral. Even Neeb is better than him in GSL. Do you realize GuMiho managed to punch above his weight multiple times vs various zergs, including Serral, in the past? That's GSL for you. Low ping, highly prepared players. When in the ESL you have to beat several lower level pros before you encounter the few players that might take a few games versus you. The format from ESLs are such that it's almost impossible to place badly if you are among the contenders, whereas in GSL top contenders failed to get past group stage time and time again. This. I think this is a hard concept for people to understand unless they follow or play other competitive sports or strategy games. In fact, format considerations are pretty much the reason Magnus Carlsen abdicated the throne in chess. Ironically, in that case it was because he felt that the world championship format in the era of super computers had devolved into a contest of who was better prepared, rather than a contest of talent and skill. The thing is, recognizing that tournament format matters doesn't mean that GSL is "better" than weekender tournaments (or at least I don't think that). But it does mean that one format (GSL) prioritizes strategy and meta-gaming and the other (weekender) prioritizes general skill and talent. While it's close, I tend to agree with Artosis that Rogue is the GOAT in that I think he has demonstrated the highest level of achievements in both formats. I think you can have this opinion while also saying Serral is the best, most dominant player to ever play the game.
There can be huge amounts of sniper builds in weekenders. Serral vs Dark in IEM is a great example. Serral’s destruction of Maru in Dallas was also great example of preparation and lack of it. Maru was on autopilot, Serral had an effective plan to counter him. Oliveira vs Reynor and Serral was also a great example. Serral especially has shown that you can have lots of preparation for a weekender. You just have to think about more scenarios and make quick decisions.
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United States1798 Posts
On June 07 2024 01:10 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2024 23:44 Schelim wrote:
Do you guys enjoy this? Cause if so keep banging but I just feel like there's more productive and fulfilling ways of spending your time than bickering back and forth over an opinion There are some interesting informations appearing from time to time though. For example, the Perceiver guy posted a google link vaguely explaining the concept about odds. Maybe his knowledge was limited, maybe not, however Mizenhauer (who has tons more info from his experience, probably due to the fact that Starcraft overall has been 'plagued'/'helped'/'involved' by betting for a long time) posted in response some interesting insight. It reminds me of an interaction with some Starcraft 2 fan / twitch moderator I had on twitter a while back: that person blocked me ultimately iirc, but I gained some great insight that the person might have not revealed it if I did not seem dense during our exchange (the person called me dense before blocking me, but after revealing some insight about pros ways of trying to improve in various esports titles). So in essence, despite some exchanges looking like bickering back and forth, some great insights can appear from it. I personally value those insights a lot, as a rather curious individual. edit: so, to summarize, even though the exchanges might be unpleasant emotionally, you can still learn valuable things in the process
I still hope someone uses the information spread across the articles to cook up something of their own.
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Northern Ireland23745 Posts
On June 06 2024 17:46 swarminfestor wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2024 14:42 LukaMav wrote:
Fun fact:
Serral would win more GSL’s than Maru winning ESL’s if they switch places Serral never tested in preparation format of offline premier tournament involving at least three or four weeks stay in that location of tournament. We never know how he will react when someone pickup him as opponent in the group stage or how his opponents will prepare against him because he just makes a first attempt so he will be unseeded. Out of all foreigners competing in GSL, only Neeb, Scarlett, Special and Reynor had experience this kind of things while Serral has never done it yet. So it is kind of premature thing to predict what happens unless he tries first. Much of weekender tournaments Serral participating comes from his right as the first seed (and also bracket luck unfortunately) so he has more access to be matched against a lower seed opponent.
GSL has seeds and in addition has group selections and gives extra perks to those who placed high the prior season, so I’m not sure I’d be making the bracket fairness argument against Serral here
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On June 07 2024 02:30 rwala wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2024 02:02 njleslu2024 wrote:On June 07 2024 01:53 rwala wrote:On June 07 2024 01:21 njleslu2024 wrote:On June 07 2024 01:17 rwala wrote:On June 06 2024 20:33 Scarlett` wrote:On June 06 2024 17:46 swarminfestor wrote:On June 06 2024 14:42 LukaMav wrote:
Fun fact:
Serral would win more GSL’s than Maru winning ESL’s if they switch places Serral never tested in preparation format of offline premier tournament involving at least three or four weeks stay in that location of tournament. We never know how he will react when someone pickup him as opponent in the group stage or how his opponents will prepare against him because he just makes a first attempt so he will be unseeded. Out of all foreigners competing in GSL, only Neeb, Scarlett, Special and Reynor had experience this kind of things while Serral has never done it yet. So it is kind of premature thing to predict what happens unless he tries first. Much of weekender tournaments Serral participating comes from his right as the first seed (and also bracket luck unfortunately) so he has more access to be matched against a lower seed opponent. If anything the GSL format is better for Serral than a weekend event Also I asked Byun about his GSL quote "Serral is the GOAT" and he said it was serious not a joke You could be right, but given how dang dominant Serral has been at weekenders, seems unlikely. We do know the prep format has caused problems for Reynor, who has crushed weekenders... One thing that's a big change in GSL is that now they do the semis and finals on the same day, which is I think the biggest format change away from being a preparation-based tournament of all the GSL format changes over the years. I think this makes it more likely that Serral could pretty easily take down a GSL if he tried. Reynor is not comparable with Serral at all, not even close. When he got crashed from GSL he also failed in starswar and IEM My point is not that Reynor is equivalent to Serral (he's not), but just that he has crushed many weekender tourneys, and taken down Serral many times in the process, presumably because he is among the best "prepared" for Serral. Artosis talked to Gumiho, who explained how he defeated Reynor with prep, and there's no question that Reynor underperformed in his GSL group. Prep versus weekender tournament format differences are definitely a real thing. How much weight one puts on these format considerations is another matter. Even Reynor got crashed 100 times from GSL is not making a difference with Serral. Reynor is a great player but has far less trophies, lower win rate and negative H2H than Serral. Even Neeb is better than him in GSL. And how has Neeb done in those weekenders that Reynor won? I'm not sure you understand the implication of what you are saying.
I mean Reynor’s performance doesn’t mean anything, Neeb is placed lower in goat list than Reynor for sure, but it’s true he did better in GSL. Over
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EPT
