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On June 05 2024 15:45 PremoBeats wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2024 07:02 Argonauta wrote:On June 05 2024 06:46 PremoBeats wrote:On June 05 2024 06:44 Argonauta wrote:On June 05 2024 06:34 PremoBeats wrote:On June 04 2024 02:00 Tanukki wrote:
Maru was the top player for a longer period of time in a more competitive scene. I guess that's what is meant here by "greatest of all time".
I do, however, assume that current top pros are better than past top pros. At the top, there's still plenty of competition, they have more experience, and builds are more refined due to the longer balance patch cycle. So Serral would be the "most skilled of all time", but that's another story. Most of Maru's titles (except 2 iirc) are from 2018 onwards, which is the same time that Serral's title collecting began. So Maru was mostly the top Korean during the same time Serral was top of the world. It took Serral less time to accumulate more PT wins with top Korean participation, not counting the PT wins where only non-Koreans played. Plus, his win rates and overall statistics versus top Korean players are much better than any other players, including Koreans. According to the script now is when I have to remind you that previous the Kespa colapse, the competition was deeper and therefore was harder than now to win championships.... See? We are all walking on circles about the same arguments over and over... what we need is more good tournaments to be held more often, so we can admire good SC2 while we argue endlessly about goats and herders. Yeah, but my point is, that all top 3 people in this list mostly gathered their tournament wins in the same era. So unless people present other names than Serral, Rogue and Maru as GOAT, this Kespa argument doesn't make sense. Comparing these three means: Serral won more titles with top Korean participation in a shorter period of time, while having much better statistics (win rates, results, etc.) than the other two... only looking at games versus Koreans, not including non-Koreans players or region-locked tournaments. Again, the idea is that previous the Kespa collapse, 1 or 2 tournaments were a looooooot and Maru was considered for certain periods the best Terran in the world (people were not talking as often as the best overall player) due to his results in both proleague (which was a huuuge deal) and individual results. After the kespa collapse, yes, Maru, Serral and Rogue have been accumulating trophies at high rates, but again, overall shallower player roster is on place. Cambridge says: "GOAT. Used to refer to or describe the person who has performed better than anyone else ever, especially in a sport" wiki: "Greatest of All Time is a term used to describe something or someone who is considered the best in a certain category and frequently used in popular lists of superlatives. It is typically abbreviated as G.O.A.T." Oxford: "the best person ever in a particular field, especially a sport (the abbreviation for ‘greatest of all time’)"
Cambridge's definition is definite more specific here. "Has performed better than anyone else ever" definitely implies both skill and winrate/dominance. That squarely puts Serral in the position of GOAT. Oxford is more generalized, because "best" and "greatest" are pretty much synonymous, and very subjective, allowing for more wiggle room—or mental gymnastics, whichever you prefer.
Personally, while the former definition is definitely easier to work with for SC2, it does seem perhaps too specific/limiting. The Oxford definition is also truer to the word root word, "great." Therefore, while I agree with the second definition more, for sticking to the primary descriptive word "great" in "greatest of all time," for which GOAT is the acronym, I also vastly prefer Cambridge's version for its simplicity, ease, and minimal controversy in determining who is the GOAT.
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Why stop there? Go to other non-english languaje authorities and repeat until you find a definition that fits your pre-establish position.
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On June 06 2024 03:21 Argonauta wrote:
Why stop there? Go to other non-english languaje authorities and repeat until you find a definition that fits your pre-establish position.
Becaaauuuse..."GOAT" is still an English acronym??
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On June 06 2024 03:45 Perceivere wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2024 03:21 Argonauta wrote:
Why stop there? Go to other non-english languaje authorities and repeat until you find a definition that fits your pre-establish position. Becaaauuuse..."GOAT" is still an English acronym??
Sure, but like the concept is not exclusively English, so please feel free to rotate to other dictionaries.
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On June 06 2024 04:16 Argonauta wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2024 03:45 Perceivere wrote:On June 06 2024 03:21 Argonauta wrote:
Why stop there? Go to other non-english languaje authorities and repeat until you find a definition that fits your pre-establish position. Becaaauuuse..."GOAT" is still an English acronym?? Sure, but like the concept is not exclusively English, so please feel free to rotate to other dictionaries.
You'd have to use direct translations, which would be unreliable. Koreans use the term GOAT (this exact English term, not a Korean equivalent, if any exists) in discussions of the topic, as well. English words, or concepts born from English origins > refer to English dictionaries. Makes most sense to me. I can tell you, there is no direct translation to Vietnamese of "GOAT," but only "greatest of all time," for which there is no officially agreed upon definition/criteria, just like here.
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On June 06 2024 04:39 Perceivere wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2024 04:16 Argonauta wrote:On June 06 2024 03:45 Perceivere wrote:On June 06 2024 03:21 Argonauta wrote:
Why stop there? Go to other non-english languaje authorities and repeat until you find a definition that fits your pre-establish position. Becaaauuuse..."GOAT" is still an English acronym?? Sure, but like the concept is not exclusively English, so please feel free to rotate to other dictionaries. You'd have to use direct translations, which would be unreliable. Koreans use the term GOAT (this exact English term, not a Korean equivalent, if any exists) in discussions of the topic, as well. English words, or concepts born from English origins > refer to English dictionaries. Makes most sense to me. I can tell you, there is no direct translation to Vietnamese of "GOAT," but only "greatest of all time," for which there is no officially agreed upon definition/criteria, just like here.
Dude, I don't know what to tell you, I was just poking fun at you for going so deep down the rabbit hole that you end up picking and choosing definitions that fit your perception.
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On June 06 2024 04:43 Argonauta wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2024 04:39 Perceivere wrote:On June 06 2024 04:16 Argonauta wrote:On June 06 2024 03:45 Perceivere wrote:On June 06 2024 03:21 Argonauta wrote:
Why stop there? Go to other non-english languaje authorities and repeat until you find a definition that fits your pre-establish position. Becaaauuuse..."GOAT" is still an English acronym?? Sure, but like the concept is not exclusively English, so please feel free to rotate to other dictionaries. You'd have to use direct translations, which would be unreliable. Koreans use the term GOAT (this exact English term, not a Korean equivalent, if any exists) in discussions of the topic, as well. English words, or concepts born from English origins > refer to English dictionaries. Makes most sense to me. I can tell you, there is no direct translation to Vietnamese of "GOAT," but only "greatest of all time," for which there is no officially agreed upon definition/criteria, just like here. Dude, I don't know what to tell you, I was just poking fun at you for going so deep down the rabbit hole that you end up picking and choosing definitions that fit your perception.
Dude, I don't know what to tell you, you've just poked fun at yourself and everybody. Everyone "picks and chooses" criteria for what they consider greatness. If you ever find the official definition of greatness somewhere in a book, pulled out the ether, or out of your ass, feel feel to share.
Also, I didn't "pick" any definition of GOAT. The most literal definition is the one offered by Oxford, which is just based on the word "great," to which I said I agreed most as the absolute standard definition, even though I would prefer the Cambridge definition as a standard, simply because it's more straightforward, and less open to interpretation/arbitration. It's a nuance take you apparently failed to comprehend.
In other words, while the Cambridge definition doesn't contradict the Oxford definition, the Oxford definition does challenge the Cambridge definition somewhat. Therefore, my take on "GOAT" doesn't violate either definition. This is simple linguistic logic—big brain not needed.
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On June 04 2024 22:55 ejozl wrote:
It's crazy to me that Maru had 14 years and still haven't won a tournament outside of Asia. While MVP, Life and Serral won 2 triple crowns within around 2 years.
Thats the thing.
Those 3 are real cowboys. Maru's excellence is geographically limited, which doesnt go along with GOAT status, for me.
Also, his greatest achivement - g8L - doesnt comprehend his greatest nemesis - whom he had multiple times to topple and failed. So, no donut for him, i'd say.
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On June 05 2024 07:34 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2024 07:02 Argonauta wrote:On June 05 2024 06:46 PremoBeats wrote:On June 05 2024 06:44 Argonauta wrote:On June 05 2024 06:34 PremoBeats wrote:On June 04 2024 02:00 Tanukki wrote:
Maru was the top player for a longer period of time in a more competitive scene. I guess that's what is meant here by "greatest of all time".
I do, however, assume that current top pros are better than past top pros. At the top, there's still plenty of competition, they have more experience, and builds are more refined due to the longer balance patch cycle. So Serral would be the "most skilled of all time", but that's another story. Most of Maru's titles (except 2 iirc) are from 2018 onwards, which is the same time that Serral's title collecting began. So Maru was mostly the top Korean during the same time Serral was top of the world. It took Serral less time to accumulate more PT wins with top Korean participation, not counting the PT wins where only non-Koreans played. Plus, his win rates and overall statistics versus top Korean players are much better than any other players, including Koreans. According to the script now is when I have to remind you that previous the Kespa colapse, the competition was deeper and therefore was harder than now to win championships.... See? We are all walking on circles about the same arguments over and over... what we need is more good tournaments to be held more often, so we can admire good SC2 while we argue endlessly about goats and herders. Yeah, but my point is, that all top 3 people in this list mostly gathered their tournament wins in the same era. So unless people present other names than Serral, Rogue and Maru as GOAT, this Kespa argument doesn't make sense. Comparing these three means: Serral won more titles with top Korean participation in a shorter period of time, while having much better statistics (win rates, results, etc.) than the other two... only looking at games versus Koreans, not including non-Koreans players or region-locked tournaments. Again, the idea is that previous the Kespa collapse, 1 or 2 tournaments were a looooooot and Maru was considered for certain periods the best Terran in the world (people were not talking as often as the best overall player) due to his results in both proleague (which was a huuuge deal) and individual results. After the kespa collapse, yes, Maru, Serral and Rogue have been accumulating trophies at high rates, but again, overall shallower player roster is on place. If you had asked in 2015, 2016 or 2017 "Who is the best Terran of all time" no one would have said Maru. The discussion would have boiled down to "has Innovation done enough to outrank Mvp?" Maru was good, but he wasn't near the top pre-2018 with "just" two Starleagues. Marus legacy is 90% based on post-2016 results. If he had quit his career 2016/17, Mizenhauer probably wouldn't have even put him in this Top 10.
This isn't true at all. If it is then Maru was criminally underrated.
Maru was arguably the best Starleague player of HotS, he outperformed INno in Starleague seasons by a ratio of 2:1, and was probably the best Proleague player of SC2 (only player to be #1 or #2 in wins every season he played, and has the highest season winrate of all time)
"Just two starleagues" had him literally tied for first during the kespa era. Not to mention when he was making back-to-back GSL playoffs in an era where 2 other terrans could make ro32.
The only reason you might think otherwise is that he almost never played outside of Korea, western fans/casters were simply not familiar with how good he was. The famous Maru vs Life IEM finals is a good example. The casters spoke of him like it was a breakout run and were oblivious to him being the best terran in korea of the previous 2 years.
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On June 06 2024 05:52 Locutos wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2024 22:55 ejozl wrote:
It's crazy to me that Maru had 14 years and still haven't won a tournament outside of Asia. While MVP, Life and Serral won 2 triple crowns within around 2 years. Thats the thing. Those 3 are real cowboys. Maru's excellence is geographically limited, which doesnt go along with GOAT status, for me. Also, his greatest achivement - g8L - doesnt comprehend his greatest nemesis - whom he had multiple times to topple and failed. So, no donut for him, i'd say.
Maru has made more ro4/finals in World Championship events (Blizzcon/Katowice) than any other player, including Serral, Rogue, Mvp, yet that doesn't count as 'excellence'.
It's a bit sad that in his community anything less than a championship doesn't count towards someone's legacy.
Like, if Serral actually played in GSL, made top 4/finals consistently, but never won, it would lessen his career in the eyes of many fans. Despite the fact that would be a fantastic achievement on anyone's list.
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United States1940 Posts
On June 06 2024 07:03 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2024 05:52 Locutos wrote:On June 04 2024 22:55 ejozl wrote:
It's crazy to me that Maru had 14 years and still haven't won a tournament outside of Asia. While MVP, Life and Serral won 2 triple crowns within around 2 years. Thats the thing. Those 3 are real cowboys. Maru's excellence is geographically limited, which doesnt go along with GOAT status, for me. Also, his greatest achivement - g8L - doesnt comprehend his greatest nemesis - whom he had multiple times to topple and failed. So, no donut for him, i'd say. Maru has made more ro4/finals in World Championship events (Blizzcon/Katowice) than any other player, including Serral, Rogue, Mvp, yet that doesn't count as 'excellence'. It's a bit sad that in his community anything less than a championship doesn't count towards someone's legacy. Like, if Serral actually played in GSL, made top 4/finals consistently, but never won, it would lessen his career in the eyes of many fans. Despite the fact that would be a fantastic achievement on anyone's list.
Way back in 2017, TheRedViper made a GOAT list by applying point values to all kinds of shit. Maru ended up being first in his list partly because all of the Top 4 finishes from hots.
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On June 06 2024 07:14 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2024 07:03 Fango wrote:On June 06 2024 05:52 Locutos wrote:On June 04 2024 22:55 ejozl wrote:
It's crazy to me that Maru had 14 years and still haven't won a tournament outside of Asia. While MVP, Life and Serral won 2 triple crowns within around 2 years. Thats the thing. Those 3 are real cowboys. Maru's excellence is geographically limited, which doesnt go along with GOAT status, for me. Also, his greatest achivement - g8L - doesnt comprehend his greatest nemesis - whom he had multiple times to topple and failed. So, no donut for him, i'd say. Maru has made more ro4/finals in World Championship events (Blizzcon/Katowice) than any other player, including Serral, Rogue, Mvp, yet that doesn't count as 'excellence'. It's a bit sad that in his community anything less than a championship doesn't count towards someone's legacy. Like, if Serral actually played in GSL, made top 4/finals consistently, but never won, it would lessen his career in the eyes of many fans. Despite the fact that would be a fantastic achievement on anyone's list. Way back in 2017, TheRedViper made a GOAT list by applying point values to all kinds of shit. Maru ended up being first in his list partly because all of the Top 4 finishes from hots.
I miss trv 
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United States1940 Posts
On June 06 2024 07:32 Cricketer12 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2024 07:14 Mizenhauer wrote:On June 06 2024 07:03 Fango wrote:On June 06 2024 05:52 Locutos wrote:On June 04 2024 22:55 ejozl wrote:
It's crazy to me that Maru had 14 years and still haven't won a tournament outside of Asia. While MVP, Life and Serral won 2 triple crowns within around 2 years. Thats the thing. Those 3 are real cowboys. Maru's excellence is geographically limited, which doesnt go along with GOAT status, for me. Also, his greatest achivement - g8L - doesnt comprehend his greatest nemesis - whom he had multiple times to topple and failed. So, no donut for him, i'd say. Maru has made more ro4/finals in World Championship events (Blizzcon/Katowice) than any other player, including Serral, Rogue, Mvp, yet that doesn't count as 'excellence'. It's a bit sad that in his community anything less than a championship doesn't count towards someone's legacy. Like, if Serral actually played in GSL, made top 4/finals consistently, but never won, it would lessen his career in the eyes of many fans. Despite the fact that would be a fantastic achievement on anyone's list. Way back in 2017, TheRedViper made a GOAT list by applying point values to all kinds of shit. Maru ended up being first in his list partly because all of the Top 4 finishes from hots. I miss trv
You and me both
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On June 06 2024 07:03 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2024 05:52 Locutos wrote:On June 04 2024 22:55 ejozl wrote:
It's crazy to me that Maru had 14 years and still haven't won a tournament outside of Asia. While MVP, Life and Serral won 2 triple crowns within around 2 years. Thats the thing. Those 3 are real cowboys. Maru's excellence is geographically limited, which doesnt go along with GOAT status, for me. Also, his greatest achivement - g8L - doesnt comprehend his greatest nemesis - whom he had multiple times to topple and failed. So, no donut for him, i'd say. Maru has made more ro4/finals in World Championship events (Blizzcon/Katowice) than any other player, including Serral, Rogue, Mvp, yet that doesn't count as 'excellence'. It's a bit sad that in his community anything less than a championship doesn't count towards someone's legacy. Like, if Serral actually played in GSL, made top 4/finals consistently, but never won, it would lessen his career in the eyes of many fans. Despite the fact that would be a fantastic achievement on anyone's list.
Fully agreed with your point, Fango. If I may offer a correction, however, if were are also counting WC wins, then Maru has 4 ro4 placements of the WC caliber: IEM 2018, 2020, 2022, and 2024; whereas Serral has 6: incidentally the same IEMs listed for Maru, plus 2018 and 2019 global finals. Just keeping the record straight.  (Just in case anyone misreads your comment as Serral making fewer deep runs). Rogue, btw, also made it into the ro4 5 times in WCs, and Dark has 4. Maru won a ton of money in two WESG's, though. I personally think players care more about the bag, while fans have different priorities. In my view, to the degree that players care, I also care. Therefore, I do value those bigger $$$,$$$ WESG as equal to championships.
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On June 06 2024 08:22 Perceivere wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2024 07:03 Fango wrote:On June 06 2024 05:52 Locutos wrote:On June 04 2024 22:55 ejozl wrote:
It's crazy to me that Maru had 14 years and still haven't won a tournament outside of Asia. While MVP, Life and Serral won 2 triple crowns within around 2 years. Thats the thing. Those 3 are real cowboys. Maru's excellence is geographically limited, which doesnt go along with GOAT status, for me. Also, his greatest achivement - g8L - doesnt comprehend his greatest nemesis - whom he had multiple times to topple and failed. So, no donut for him, i'd say. Maru has made more ro4/finals in World Championship events (Blizzcon/Katowice) than any other player, including Serral, Rogue, Mvp, yet that doesn't count as 'excellence'. It's a bit sad that in his community anything less than a championship doesn't count towards someone's legacy. Like, if Serral actually played in GSL, made top 4/finals consistently, but never won, it would lessen his career in the eyes of many fans. Despite the fact that would be a fantastic achievement on anyone's list. Fully agreed with your point, Fango. If I may offer a correction, however, if were are also counting WC wins, then Maru has 4 ro4 placements of the WC caliber: IEM 2018, 2020, 2022, and 2024; whereas Serral has 6: incidentally the same IEMs listed for Maru, plus 2018 and 2019 global finals. Just keeping the record straight. (Just in case anyone misreads your comment as Serral making fewer deep runs). Rogue, btw, also made it into the ro4 5 times in WCs, and Dark has 4. Maru won a ton of money in two WESG's, though. I personally think players care more about the bag, while fans have different priorities. In my view, to the degree that players care, I also care. Therefore, I do value those bigger $$$,$$$ WESG as equal to championships.
He also made top 4 at the 2013 wcs global finals
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United States1940 Posts
On June 06 2024 08:41 lokol4890 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2024 08:22 Perceivere wrote:On June 06 2024 07:03 Fango wrote:On June 06 2024 05:52 Locutos wrote:On June 04 2024 22:55 ejozl wrote:
It's crazy to me that Maru had 14 years and still haven't won a tournament outside of Asia. While MVP, Life and Serral won 2 triple crowns within around 2 years. Thats the thing. Those 3 are real cowboys. Maru's excellence is geographically limited, which doesnt go along with GOAT status, for me. Also, his greatest achivement - g8L - doesnt comprehend his greatest nemesis - whom he had multiple times to topple and failed. So, no donut for him, i'd say. Maru has made more ro4/finals in World Championship events (Blizzcon/Katowice) than any other player, including Serral, Rogue, Mvp, yet that doesn't count as 'excellence'. It's a bit sad that in his community anything less than a championship doesn't count towards someone's legacy. Like, if Serral actually played in GSL, made top 4/finals consistently, but never won, it would lessen his career in the eyes of many fans. Despite the fact that would be a fantastic achievement on anyone's list. Fully agreed with your point, Fango. If I may offer a correction, however, if were are also counting WC wins, then Maru has 4 ro4 placements of the WC caliber: IEM 2018, 2020, 2022, and 2024; whereas Serral has 6: incidentally the same IEMs listed for Maru, plus 2018 and 2019 global finals. Just keeping the record straight. (Just in case anyone misreads your comment as Serral making fewer deep runs). Rogue, btw, also made it into the ro4 5 times in WCs, and Dark has 4. Maru won a ton of money in two WESG's, though. I personally think players care more about the bag, while fans have different priorities. In my view, to the degree that players care, I also care. Therefore, I do value those bigger $$$,$$$ WESG as equal to championships. He also made top 4 at the 2013 wcs global finals
Maru and Classic were Round of 4 merchants at world championships.
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i think the farm animal debate raging on mainly misses out just how drastically the game has changed since its inception. not just patches, but expansion packs, starting worker counts and base depletion all help blur what many thinks is straightforward. and to me the current state of LotV is leagues better than at any other point in the games history, even with the sad protoss club being a constant pressing issue.
the current game is absolutely glorious from a competitive pov. you cant just win with simple macro builds or insane timing attacks like you could in WoL and HotS. oh man is he or isnt he gonna hold the 4 gate. even during the quote unquote best era ever for competition in what 2016? those games pale in comparison to the current ones. not just a speed and clicky click metric. it finally feels like a proper war with back and forth, organically moving the battle lines, supply lines, resource management.. i cant believe how good we have it right now. that herO vs Clem + Show Spoiler + that happened was absolutely thrilling from start to finish. a beautiful dance. looking back at the golden era of SC2 competitiveness and i aint gonna watch many a full 3-0 series. the rock paper scissors effect back then was ridiculous.
but the truth is for all of the patches and expansions, were almost talking about entirely different games.
its why i would be very happy to place Maru as the top farm animal, since he was there since the beginning... that is, without his jaw droppingly bad head to head record against Serral. the first time i saw the ro4 in Dallas i had a feeling of dread that it was going to be Serral vs Maru, like it was a forgone conclusion to me.
more pet peeves
also i have is the whole GSL prestigious issue.. to me a weekend tourney vs the GSL format require two entirely different approaches to the game. neither is objectively better. they are just different formats. for all the hallowed prestige of waiting many days to prep, GSL often has entirely dogshit series that dont look close. and id argue its more often than not a player not recognizing a blindspot in their play rather than genius buildorder choices (unless you are TY, praise him). and besides, its not like weekend tournaments dont have any prep time.
i think id comfortably place the current top farm animal contenders and ranking as
Serral 9.9
Maru 9.7
Rogue 9.6
i believe this post should settle the debate, or at least provide some signal to noise ratio worth an upvote and a subscribe
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Northern Ireland27206 Posts
As competitive as it was, and it absolutely was some of those days did have pretty awful, one-dimensional metas
Game’s in a pretty decent spot these days, plus the skill levels of the top guys + gradual collective optimising is pretty glorious to behold at times. Easy to lose sight of some of that!
If I wasn’t already subscribed to you on YouTube I’d sub :p
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On June 06 2024 07:03 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2024 05:52 Locutos wrote:On June 04 2024 22:55 ejozl wrote:
It's crazy to me that Maru had 14 years and still haven't won a tournament outside of Asia. While MVP, Life and Serral won 2 triple crowns within around 2 years. Thats the thing. Those 3 are real cowboys. Maru's excellence is geographically limited, which doesnt go along with GOAT status, for me. Also, his greatest achivement - g8L - doesnt comprehend his greatest nemesis - whom he had multiple times to topple and failed. So, no donut for him, i'd say. Maru has made more ro4/finals in World Championship events (Blizzcon/Katowice) than any other player, including Serral, Rogue, Mvp, yet that doesn't count as 'excellence'. It's a bit sad that in his community anything less than a championship doesn't count towards someone's legacy. Like, if Serral actually played in GSL, made top 4/finals consistently, but never won, it would lessen his career in the eyes of many fans. Despite the fact that would be a fantastic achievement on anyone's list.
Meanwhile, LiquidJinro had so much respect in the foreign community for his RO4 placements in GSL. I know its a different time with increasing foreign skill levels, but Reynor got stomped recently too.
We need Serral to go to Korea and dominate a season; given a season or two to acclimate. Then he takes the GOAT crown. Because despite his insane skill levels- he is better than current Maru, for sure, the crown of GOAT needs the jewels of LEGACY.
And with the very nice amount of money Serral has made from SC2, there's nothing holding him back after his military service.
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On June 06 2024 07:03 Fango wrote:
It's a bit sad that in his community anything less than a championship doesn't count towards someone's legacy.
Like, if Serral actually played in GSL, made top 4/finals consistently, but never won, it would lessen his career in the eyes of many fans. Despite the fact that would be a fantastic achievement on anyone's list.
There is a difference between something adding to someone's legacy and achieving a GOAT status.
The GOAT needs to be best... this is in the defintion. If you arrive 2nd, 3rd, or 4th place that is a great achievement, but not the same as winning.
Just think about it this way: In any given year of SC2 since it came out, given the nuanced discussion about different eras is justified: Is someone GOAT who dominates the game for half its existance in an absolutely unprecedented fashion with statistical numbers in regards to win records, won tournaments and individual match/game records that no one else is even able to dream about? Or someone who has the longest, consistent career, but only can be called the best of a given year only twice or thrice and on top lacks the World Championship (or any other title outside of Asia), despite trying several times?
And these are the facts we face. Serral dominated EVERY year since he started taking SC2 seriously after finishing school. Sometimes in a fashion that is absolutely ridiculous. In his first year after school, he has a match win rate vs top Koreans of over 85%, while only a handful of pros (Dark, sOs, herO 1x, mvp 2x, Maru 5x, Serral 6x) ever came across 70%. Every other player never reached 70%. Serral has 3 years over 85%. The next closest player is Maru with 78,05% in 2023.
Maru on the other hand never won Worlds or any other thing in Europa/America despite countless attempts... that fact in my opinion simply does not go along with the GOAT-status.
And everyone should ask themselves this question: Will Maru's pre-2015 forever make him the GOAT despite not being called GOAT pre2018. Or is there a point at which Serral's inhuman dominition trumps this? Because with every passing year, that Serral adds to his resumée in an era where the game is more tactical than ever (and yes, with less competition) the duration of pre-2018 in relation becomes less and less influential.
Or differently put: Serral's ascension was what got in the way of a probably uncontested GOAT status for Maru, despite Maru's shortcomings.
Rogue is #3 for most, so without Serral, Maru would be the GOAT for most people (myself included).
It is simply as I pointed out: the individual results of Maru pre-2018 are not enough for me to put him before the inhuman dominance that Serral is displaying in his 7th year now.
And I'd really like to know this: Let's say things continue as they are now... Serral's dominance in won Premier Tournaments with top Korean participation, his insane records versus top players as well as his win rates stay the same. How long would it take for people to accept that Serral is the GOAT? He has been dominating this game for around half its existance in a way no one else even remotely comes close (I posted the insane match win rates of Serral in comparison to other pros before)... so how long does he need to continue doing this? Or wouldn't it matter to people as he never played in the Kespa era, even if he did so for another 7 years?
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EPT
