On June 03 2024 17:58 MJG wrote: This community is an amazing demonstration of recency bias.
It's a Greatest of All Time list, not a Greatest Since 2018 list.
Or maybe I'm just an amazing demonstration of nostalgia bias!
Well there is one guy who wins much more tournaments and money in half of the time of the other guy... don't know what else to say
That the shallow-as-a-shower depth of competition since the Korean scene collapsed has led to an environment were it's easier to accumulate back-to-back wins than it would be with a fully-functioning scene?
Acting like Maru didn't win majority of his tournaments after 2018 as well.
Yeah he had one OSL one SSL and was a very good pro league player before 2018. But the gap between him and Serral is much bigger (9 premiers), it's just not enough to make up the difference anymore.
On June 03 2024 17:58 MJG wrote: This community is an amazing demonstration of recency bias.
It's a Greatest of All Time list, not a Greatest Since 2018 list.
Or maybe I'm just an amazing demonstration of nostalgia bias!
Well there is one guy who wins much more tournaments and money in half of the time of the other guy... don't know what else to say
That the shallow-as-a-shower depth of competition since the Korean scene collapsed has led to an environment were it's easier to accumulate back-to-back wins than it would be with a fully-functioning scene?
Ah yes that's why Maru is having such an easy time winning tournaments all over the world since the "collapse" ... oh wait
I wasn't making a point in Maru's favour, I was responding to the idea that Serral managing to win "more tournaments and money in half of the time" is somehow important.
I don't think it is important because that period of time is also where Maru earned most of his money, as well as being where many of the other top-earners earned their money, and I think that this is a symptom of the scene collapsing. With a deeper pool of players and a constant flow of talented newcomers, those tournament wins and monies would likely be spread out amongst more people, like they were in the first half of Maru's career.
But this is all speculation on my part because it's essentially an alternate history thought experiment so...
On June 03 2024 17:58 MJG wrote: This community is an amazing demonstration of recency bias.
It's a Greatest of All Time list, not a Greatest Since 2018 list.
Or maybe I'm just an amazing demonstration of nostalgia bias!
Well there is one guy who wins much more tournaments and money in half of the time of the other guy... don't know what else to say
On the other hand, Rogue won A LOT of money from very little practice time (mainly when zerg was OP and you could abuse it to win big checks), does that mean he is the goat? Maru / Serral / Neeb were (afaik) known to practice steadily / all the time, not just before tourneys etc. They probably tried different approaches (some yielded good results, others not as much), but it's a complex matter.
It's too soon to update the list though (imo), let's wait after EWC for a temporary "in-between" list (depending on the future of the scene)
May I remind you that this "list" is still only an opinion piece from Miz not some widely accepted thing like the laws of physics. And even if it were, the one guy bopped the other guy 4:0 two times and won in both big tournaments since release of said list. Sure Rogue doesn't practice at all. Bet he doesn't even know the rules
I mean we don't know everything about physics either.* The fact that something is widely accepted doesn't make it "true", it just makes it true "at this specific timeframe/environment"
I'd argue the laws of physics are true until proven otherwise. And I'd argue there is a bigger % that accepts those laws than accepts Maru as the GOAT. Hell I'd even argue there is a much bigger % that accepts Serral as GOAT than Maru.
Was it the first time ever when SC2 player won a tournament while serving in the military?
Excellent Joona, bloody excellent! o7
Some more off-duty days (kuntoisuusloma) of training time should be granted for your distinguished, exemplary, and valiant effort!
Korean military service is totally different from the Finish one. People like Rogue, Trap, Stats and others can't take hours practicing or making the moneys when doing the military service. So they are practically in "sleep mode" for a duration of two years. While Serral has been exempted from doing these prior to the tournament.
So, we can't compare saying that Serral is the first Sc2 player to win the championship while doing service. This is unfair comparison to those who can't even play when doing military service .
Yes, Serral's military service is much less restrict compared to Korea's military service. Also much shorter, yes. But his playtime is still restricted and only a fraction of a full time player's available practice time window.
On June 03 2024 21:29 Poopi wrote: Sure, but it doesn’t necessarily mean much
It means what I said in my first post. The "list" is the opinion of one person and not something to be referred at as a given/ base. Is all I wanted to say
Why are some people still butthurt about this list?
It’s an opinion from ONE guy. Miz opinion weighs as much as some random guy on twitch chat. Only difference is that Miz has a platform to express it
Pretty sure if some random TL forum guy starts making his own GOaT list articles, I think the mods would allow that (don’t think they will ban it, at least I hope not). But y’all just too lazy to write and post your own articles
On June 03 2024 21:29 Poopi wrote: Sure, but it doesn’t necessarily mean much
It means what I said in my first post. The "list" is the opinion of one person and not something to be referred at as a given/ base. Is all I wanted to say
It is an opinion with a lot of work behind it to defend it though, so that has some merit
I joked to my irl friends that Mizenhauer probably knew beforehands how insufferable I / Poopi would be on the forums after seeing that Maru would be #1. I actually stopped trying to retro engineer his system once I found that Maru had a pretty good shot at finishing #1 (I had the intuition it would be a super tight race with Serral though)
The fact that so many people talked about this list (without even properly reading the arguments) is the important matter though, because it might affect the players to some extent. Like everyone was talking about this, it was widely discussed in different mediums (discords, reddit, twitch streams, etc.) for some time.
Was it the first time ever when SC2 player won a tournament while serving in the military?
Excellent Joona, bloody excellent! o7
Some more off-duty days (kuntoisuusloma) of training time should be granted for your distinguished, exemplary, and valiant effort!
Korean military service is totally different from the Finish one. People like Rogue, Trap, Stats and others can't take hours practicing or making the moneys when doing the military service. So they are practically in "sleep mode" for a duration of two years. While Serral has been exempted from doing these prior to the tournament.
So, we can't compare saying that Serral is the first Sc2 player to win the championship while doing service. This is unfair comparison to those who can't even play when doing military service .
Yes, Serral's military service is much less restrict compared to Korea's military service. Also much shorter, yes. But his playtime is still restricted and only a fraction of a full time player's available practice time window.
Yes, that's why I can't agree with the claim saying that Serral is the first Sc2 player winning tournament while doing military service because there is practically no one he can be compared to unless a person like Heromarine or Clem also has to do the military service in future, provided that he can still play Sc2 while doing the military service.
Was it the first time ever when SC2 player won a tournament while serving in the military?
Excellent Joona, bloody excellent! o7
Some more off-duty days (kuntoisuusloma) of training time should be granted for your distinguished, exemplary, and valiant effort!
Korean military service is totally different from the Finish one. People like Rogue, Trap, Stats and others can't take hours practicing or making the moneys when doing the military service. So they are practically in "sleep mode" for a duration of two years. While Serral has been exempted from doing these prior to the tournament.
So, we can't compare saying that Serral is the first Sc2 player to win the championship while doing service. This is unfair comparison to those who can't even play when doing military service .
Yes, Serral's military service is much less restrict compared to Korea's military service. Also much shorter, yes. But his playtime is still restricted and only a fraction of a full time player's available practice time window.
Yes, that's why I can't agree with the claim saying that Serral is the first Sc2 player winning tournament while doing military service because there is practically no one he can be compared to unless a person like Heromarine or Clem also has to do the military service in future, provided that he can still play Sc2 while doing the military service.
Well, it's a fact that Serral won the tournament. It's also a fact that Serral is in the military. Not much to argue or agree here. How the different mandatory military services are comparable is another thing entirely though
Was it the first time ever when SC2 player won a tournament while serving in the military?
Excellent Joona, bloody excellent! o7
Some more off-duty days (kuntoisuusloma) of training time should be granted for your distinguished, exemplary, and valiant effort!
Korean military service is totally different from the Finish one. People like Rogue, Trap, Stats and others can't take hours practicing or making the moneys when doing the military service. So they are practically in "sleep mode" for a duration of two years. While Serral has been exempted from doing these prior to the tournament.
So, we can't compare saying that Serral is the first Sc2 player to win the championship while doing service. This is unfair comparison to those who can't even play when doing military service .
Yes, Serral's military service is much less restrict compared to Korea's military service. Also much shorter, yes. But his playtime is still restricted and only a fraction of a full time player's available practice time window.
Yes, that's why I can't agree with the claim saying that Serral is the first Sc2 player winning tournament while doing military service because there is practically no one he can be compared to unless a person like Heromarine or Clem also has to do the military service in future, provided that he can still play Sc2 while doing the military service.
Well, it's a fact that Serral won the tournament. It's also a fact that Serral is in the military. Not much to argue or agree here. How the different mandatory military services are comparable is another thing entirely though
Therefore the "The first Sc2 player while doing military service" is not correct because there is no condition to meet or no one from foreigner lands he can be compared to. "The first Sc2 player while doing Finish military service" makes much more sense.
On June 03 2024 12:35 goldensail wrote: If people still think Zerg is balanced, I don't know what to say. The Zerg economy was clearly not supposed to work this way. Against what Serral was doing, Terran basically has to commit to an all-in and pray it works, otherwise the swarms will just kill you no matter how good a defensive setup you have, or how good you're at defending.
Also I've always thought Terran lacks effective AOE damage, and nerfing the widow mine in the name of better TvP balance after Kato clearly didn't help.
Look forward to the hate replies but at least tell me where I'm wrong.
Was it the first time ever when SC2 player won a tournament while serving in the military?
Excellent Joona, bloody excellent! o7
Some more off-duty days (kuntoisuusloma) of training time should be granted for your distinguished, exemplary, and valiant effort!
Korean military service is totally different from the Finish one. People like Rogue, Trap, Stats and others can't take hours practicing or making the moneys when doing the military service. So they are practically in "sleep mode" for a duration of two years. While Serral has been exempted from doing these prior to the tournament.
So, we can't compare saying that Serral is the first Sc2 player to win the championship while doing service. This is unfair comparison to those who can't even play when doing military service .
Yes, Serral's military service is much less restrict compared to Korea's military service. Also much shorter, yes. But his playtime is still restricted and only a fraction of a full time player's available practice time window.
Yes, that's why I can't agree with the claim saying that Serral is the first Sc2 player winning tournament while doing military service because there is practically no one he can be compared to unless a person like Heromarine or Clem also has to do the military service in future, provided that he can still play Sc2 while doing the military service.
Well, it's a fact that Serral won the tournament. It's also a fact that Serral is in the military. Not much to argue or agree here. How the different mandatory military services are comparable is another thing entirely though
Therefore the "The first Sc2 player while doing military service" is not correct because there is no condition to meet or no one from foreigner lands he can be compared to. "The first Sc2 player while doing Finish military service" makes much more sense.
He is the first sc2 player to win a tournament while doing military service. He's also the first sc2 player to participate in a tournament while doing military service
Was it the first time ever when SC2 player won a tournament while serving in the military?
Excellent Joona, bloody excellent! o7
Some more off-duty days (kuntoisuusloma) of training time should be granted for your distinguished, exemplary, and valiant effort!
Korean military service is totally different from the Finish one. People like Rogue, Trap, Stats and others can't take hours practicing or making the moneys when doing the military service. So they are practically in "sleep mode" for a duration of two years. While Serral has been exempted from doing these prior to the tournament.
So, we can't compare saying that Serral is the first Sc2 player to win the championship while doing service. This is unfair comparison to those who can't even play when doing military service .
Yes, Serral's military service is much less restrict compared to Korea's military service. Also much shorter, yes. But his playtime is still restricted and only a fraction of a full time player's available practice time window.
Yes, that's why I can't agree with the claim saying that Serral is the first Sc2 player winning tournament while doing military service because there is practically no one he can be compared to unless a person like Heromarine or Clem also has to do the military service in future, provided that he can still play Sc2 while doing the military service.
Well, it's a fact that Serral won the tournament. It's also a fact that Serral is in the military. Not much to argue or agree here. How the different mandatory military services are comparable is another thing entirely though
Therefore the "The first Sc2 player while doing military service" is not correct because there is no condition to meet or no one from foreigner lands he can be compared to. "The first Sc2 player while doing Finish military service" makes much more sense.
He is the first sc2 player to win a tournament while doing military service. He's also the first sc2 player to participate in a tournament while doing military service
On June 03 2024 21:29 Poopi wrote: Sure, but it doesn’t necessarily mean much
It means what I said in my first post. The "list" is the opinion of one person and not something to be referred at as a given/ base. Is all I wanted to say
It is an opinion with a lot of work behind it to defend it though, so that has some merit
I joked to my irl friends that Mizenhauer probably knew beforehands how insufferable I / Poopi would be on the forums after seeing that Maru would be #1. I actually stopped trying to retro engineer his system once I found that Maru had a pretty good shot at finishing #1 (I had the intuition it would be a super tight race with Serral though)
The fact that so many people talked about this list (without even properly reading the arguments) is the important matter though, because it might affect the players to some extent. Like everyone was talking about this, it was widely discussed in different mediums (discords, reddit, twitch streams, etc.) for some time.
That's pretty good soft power / influence.
You can tell no one read anything because you have reddit threads titled "Serral can't be the goat because he didn't win GSL(sarcasm)". I never made that argument and I think it's nonsensical. It does get me down a bit that so many people care enough to call me out, but not enough to read and understand my reasoning. I'm fine with people disagreeing with me, but I'd prefer they put more time and thought into creating their opinions . Artosis and feardragon making 3-5 video content just fans the flames because you can't actually make a legit case without dozens/hundreds of hours of work.
On the other hand, it's kinda ridiculous (in a positive way) that an entire subreddit and one of the biggest (if not the biggest) video tournament organizers needed to take their digs at me. This entire thing is the height of absurdity.
On June 03 2024 21:29 Poopi wrote: Sure, but it doesn’t necessarily mean much
It means what I said in my first post. The "list" is the opinion of one person and not something to be referred at as a given/ base. Is all I wanted to say
It is an opinion with a lot of work behind it to defend it though, so that has some merit
I joked to my irl friends that Mizenhauer probably knew beforehands how insufferable I / Poopi would be on the forums after seeing that Maru would be #1. I actually stopped trying to retro engineer his system once I found that Maru had a pretty good shot at finishing #1 (I had the intuition it would be a super tight race with Serral though)
The fact that so many people talked about this list (without even properly reading the arguments) is the important matter though, because it might affect the players to some extent. Like everyone was talking about this, it was widely discussed in different mediums (discords, reddit, twitch streams, etc.) for some time.
That's pretty good soft power / influence.
You can tell no one read anything because you have reddit threads titled "Serral can't be the goat because he didn't win GSL(sarcasm)". I never made that argument and I think it's nonsensical. It does get me down a bit that so many people care enough to call me out, but not enough to read and understand my reasoning. I'm fine with people disagreeing with me, but I'd prefer they put more time and thought into creating their opinions . Artosis and feardragon making 3-5 video content just fans the flames because you can't actually make a legit case without dozens/hundreds of hours of work.
On the other hand, it's kinda ridiculous (in a positive way) that an entire subreddit and one of the biggest (if not the biggest) video tournament organizers needed to take their digs at me. This entire thing is the height of absurdity.
Just reply with the number of brackets rigged by Apollo
Was it the first time ever when SC2 player won a tournament while serving in the military?
Excellent Joona, bloody excellent! o7
Some more off-duty days (kuntoisuusloma) of training time should be granted for your distinguished, exemplary, and valiant effort!
Korean military service is totally different from the Finish one. People like Rogue, Trap, Stats and others can't take hours practicing or making the moneys when doing the military service. So they are practically in "sleep mode" for a duration of two years. While Serral has been exempted from doing these prior to the tournament.
So, we can't compare saying that Serral is the first Sc2 player to win the championship while doing service. This is unfair comparison to those who can't even play when doing military service .
Yes, Serral's military service is much less restrict compared to Korea's military service. Also much shorter, yes. But his playtime is still restricted and only a fraction of a full time player's available practice time window.
Yes, that's why I can't agree with the claim saying that Serral is the first Sc2 player winning tournament while doing military service because there is practically no one he can be compared to unless a person like Heromarine or Clem also has to do the military service in future, provided that he can still play Sc2 while doing the military service.
Well, it's a fact that Serral won the tournament. It's also a fact that Serral is in the military. Not much to argue or agree here. How the different mandatory military services are comparable is another thing entirely though
Therefore the "The first Sc2 player while doing military service" is not correct because there is no condition to meet or no one from foreigner lands he can be compared to. "The first Sc2 player while doing Finish military service" makes much more sense.
He is the first sc2 player to win a tournament while doing military service. He's also the first sc2 player to participate in a tournament while doing military service
It's kinda hilarious that we went from 90% of people not knowing there was mandatory service in Finland to everyone now claiming it's a big hurdle to clear. "Military Service" (within the StarCraft community) has always referred to an 18 month break mandated by the Korean govt (aka the end of your competitive career). There has to be a different term to describe these two very different forms of military service.
I don't remember if it was this topic or the Addendum topic where I made the statement that IMO, if Serral had played Terran, he would be behind Maru, Inno, Clem, and a few others. This pissed off some people, who either said I was absurd or baseless. I admit I had no evidence, and it was little more than a hunch.
Lo and behold I just came across this video of Serral playing Terran against a nobody Zerg in a Finnish contest. I'll let you watch the series and draw your own conclusion on whether my hunch is justified. Remember this happened around end of '18 when Serral was already placed on a pedestal by many.
On June 04 2024 01:31 goldensail wrote: I don't remember if it was this topic or the Addendum topic where I made the statement that IMO, if Serral had played Terran, he would be behind Maru, Inno, Clem, and a few others. This pissed off some people, who either said I was absurd or baseless. I admit I had no evidence, and it was little more than a hunch.
Lo and behold I just came across this video of Serral playing Terran against a nobody Zerg in a Finnish contest. I'll let you watch the series and draw your own conclusion on whether my hunch is justified. Remember this happened around end of '18 when Serral was already placed on a pedestal by many.
A) You can't take offracing seriously. They invest thousands of hours into the race they play and let the other two atrophy.
B) Back when soO was 6.6k (2017) he was between 5.8 and and 5.5 as Terran on the KR Server. This is a case by case basis type deal.
C) He'll forever be the first foreigner to win Blizzcon butm as for his actual tournament resume goes, he was nowhere near the most decorated player in the world/SC2 history.
D) You just outed yourself, dude. Did you actually refer to ZhuGeLiang a random Zerg nobody? When did you start following SC2 and, do you only watch Serral matches?
On June 04 2024 01:31 goldensail wrote: I don't remember if it was this topic or the Addendum topic where I made the statement that IMO, if Serral had played Terran, he would be behind Maru, Inno, Clem, and a few others. This pissed off some people, who either said I was absurd or baseless. I admit I had no evidence, and it was little more than a hunch.
Lo and behold I just came across this video of Serral playing Terran against a nobody Zerg in a Finnish contest. I'll let you watch the series and draw your own conclusion on whether my hunch is justified. Remember this happened around end of '18 when Serral was already placed on a pedestal by many.
It is possible, but highly unlikely imo. Maybe his dedication would have not been as strong, but if he somehow managed to keep the same dedication to the craft, he would have reached the same skill level (but for terran instead of zerg, which is only a few differences). Maybe he would have won different tournaments depending on meta etc., but overall, his results should have converged to roughly the same. (ie. maybe less good results in 2019, but then better in 2020, etc.)
You can't change too many parameters at once for experiments (are they thought or real experiments), it just makes it more of a clusterfuck if you do so
Maru was the top player for a longer period of time in a more competitive scene. I guess that's what is meant here by "greatest of all time".
I do, however, assume that current top pros are better than past top pros. At the top, there's still plenty of competition, they have more experience, and builds are more refined due to the longer balance patch cycle. So Serral would be the "most skilled of all time", but that's another story.
EPT
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