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Northern Ireland27436 Posts
On June 03 2024 12:35 goldensail wrote:
If people still think Zerg is balanced, I don't know what to say. The Zerg economy was clearly not supposed to work this way. Against what Serral was doing, Terran basically has to commit to an all-in and pray it works, otherwise the swarms will just kill you no matter how good a defensive setup you have, or how good you're at defending.
Also I've always thought Terran lacks effective AOE damage, and nerfing the widow mine in the name of better TvP balance after Kato clearly didn't help.
Look forward to the hate replies but at least tell me where I'm wrong.
Many things in RTS games aren’t supposed to work how players get them to work, part of the fun of the genre.
At this stage we’ve gone from a ‘Big 4’ of Zerg regularly carving up the big tournaments to basically just Serral making things look hopeless, both in ZvP and ZvT
If Maru carried Terran in dark times, Serral is absolutely a level above his fellow Zergs in this decent epoch for the race.
Ultimately it’s a remarkably well-balanced game for its constituent parts. May not be to all tastes but given how they initially built it and never completely redesigned it, we get what we get.
As long as Terran has absolute DPS machines that can be microed on a dime, Zerg need to be able to throw waves at them, and Protoss need their rather large book of bullshit.
Terran players have perpetually wanted it both ways, they wanna flex about how hard the race is and how much micro it can require, but not that the race is far, far more microable and what that means in the hands of these modern machines
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On June 03 2024 12:55 goldensail wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2024 12:45 Glorfindelio wrote:On June 03 2024 12:35 goldensail wrote:
If people still think Zerg is balanced, I don't know what to say. The Zerg economy was clearly not supposed to work this way. Against what Serral was doing, Terran basically has to commit to an all-in and pray it works, otherwise the swarms will just kill you no matter how good a defensive setup you have, or how good you're at defending.
Also I've always thought Terran lacks effective AOE damage, and nerfing the widow mine in the name of better TvP balance after Kato clearly didn't help.
Look forward to the hate replies but at least tell me where I'm wrong. "I don't know what to say"--could have stopped there. Here's a clue: Oliveira, an amazing yet far lesser player, managed to take Serral to the brink, while Maru looked even worse than his series at Katowice. No other Zerg is accomplishing anything of note, alongside a rough map pool for Zergs. But. Balance. Clearly the problem. Read my post before replying please.
Please, you're not making an argument beyond "I don't like the result so here's some word vomit."
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On June 03 2024 13:05 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2024 12:35 goldensail wrote:
If people still think Zerg is balanced, I don't know what to say. The Zerg economy was clearly not supposed to work this way. Against what Serral was doing, Terran basically has to commit to an all-in and pray it works, otherwise the swarms will just kill you no matter how good a defensive setup you have, or how good you're at defending.
Also I've always thought Terran lacks effective AOE damage, and nerfing the widow mine in the name of better TvP balance after Kato clearly didn't help.
Look forward to the hate replies but at least tell me where I'm wrong. Many things in RTS games aren’t supposed to work how players get them to work, part of the fun of the genre. At this stage we’ve gone from a ‘Big 4’ of Zerg regularly carving up the big tournaments to basically just Serral making things look hopeless, both in ZvP and ZvT If Maru carried Terran in dark times, Serral is absolutely a level above his fellow Zergs in this decent epoch for the race. Ultimately it’s a remarkably well-balanced game for its constituent parts. May not be to all tastes but given how they initially built it and never completely redesigned it, we get what we get. As long as Terran has absolute DPS machines that can be microed on a dime, Zerg need to be able to throw waves at them, and Protoss need their rather large book of bullshit. Terran players have perpetually wanted it both ways, they wanna flex about how hard the race is and how much micro it can require, but not that the race is far, far more microable and what that means in the hands of these modern machines
It stops being fun after being on the short end of the stick for 5+ years.
Zergs have done well in this tournament again, but yes it's Serral who leads the pack, I always thought Reynor had potential but he doesn't seem to be trying hard enough. Dark is retiring soon so understandable.
What Serral has shown, is that when you fully exploit Zerg's econ advantage, it doesn't matter how good Terrans micro their units. So I think "we get what we get" is a more equitable observation.
I do think Maru should've made an adjustment by game 2 or 3. After watching Serral/Oli games, he should've observed how Oli was able to use a narrow timing window to all-in and basically have a gambler's chance (Oli has been Serral's practice partner for some time so it's not surprising he knows what's the most realistic option). Perhaps Maru thought he could survive the mid game since no one is better at defending than he is, but when things didn't work out in G1/G2 surely a chance is better than nothing?
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Looking forward to this thread getting bumped until eternity every time Serral or Maru wins a championship.
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Northern Ireland27436 Posts
On June 03 2024 14:03 goldensail wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2024 13:05 WombaT wrote:On June 03 2024 12:35 goldensail wrote:
If people still think Zerg is balanced, I don't know what to say. The Zerg economy was clearly not supposed to work this way. Against what Serral was doing, Terran basically has to commit to an all-in and pray it works, otherwise the swarms will just kill you no matter how good a defensive setup you have, or how good you're at defending.
Also I've always thought Terran lacks effective AOE damage, and nerfing the widow mine in the name of better TvP balance after Kato clearly didn't help.
Look forward to the hate replies but at least tell me where I'm wrong. Many things in RTS games aren’t supposed to work how players get them to work, part of the fun of the genre. At this stage we’ve gone from a ‘Big 4’ of Zerg regularly carving up the big tournaments to basically just Serral making things look hopeless, both in ZvP and ZvT If Maru carried Terran in dark times, Serral is absolutely a level above his fellow Zergs in this decent epoch for the race. Ultimately it’s a remarkably well-balanced game for its constituent parts. May not be to all tastes but given how they initially built it and never completely redesigned it, we get what we get. As long as Terran has absolute DPS machines that can be microed on a dime, Zerg need to be able to throw waves at them, and Protoss need their rather large book of bullshit. Terran players have perpetually wanted it both ways, they wanna flex about how hard the race is and how much micro it can require, but not that the race is far, far more microable and what that means in the hands of these modern machines It stops being fun after being on the short end of the stick for 5+ years. Zergs have done well in this tournament again, but yes it's Serral who leads the pack, I always thought Reynor had potential but he doesn't seem to be trying hard enough. Dark is retiring soon so understandable. What Serral has shown, is that when you fully exploit Zerg's econ advantage, it doesn't matter how good Terrans micro their units. So I think "we get what we get" is a more equitable observation. I do think Maru should've made an adjustment by game 2 or 3. After watching Serral/Oli games, he should've observed how Oli was able to use a narrow timing window to all-in and basically have a gambler's chance (Oli has been Serral's practice partner for some time so it's not surprising he knows what's the most realistic option). Perhaps Maru thought he could survive the mid game since no one is better at defending than he is, but when things didn't work out in G1/G2 surely a chance is better than nothing?
Reynor was busting his ass practicing before last Katowice and bombed, tried a different approach more recently and that hasn’t yielded results either, but I don’t think it’s for a lack of effort or passion. I’m sure he’ll get it together eventually.
Indeed he’s just as quick as Serral and he plays a fundamentally similar style to him, which I think illustrates how thin the knife edge actually is if your gameplan is to leverage huge eco
The Zerg hive mind’s collective results have kinda been dropping for years though to something a bit more reasonable. Be it regionally, or internationally.
There was a period where basically only Serral and Reynor could beat Serral or Reynor in EU, and guys like Lambo or Elazer were placing deeper more often. It’s been a while since a foreign Zerg outside of the big two had a really notable tournament run and that used to be semi-common.
They’re still very much competitive but Serral is doing a lot of heavy lifting. There definitely was a period whete they were very strong in ZvT and even more so in ZvP, absolutely but I think those days are a while passed now. And lower down the chain Zerg rep at a decent standard like GM has been ever-dwindling.
As per Maru, I’m unsure. On the face of it yeah mix it up, but then if he gambled on some all-ins that didn’t work folks would be saying ‘why not play to your late game strengths’?
Perhaps there’s a flipside these days to ‘just play like Maru’, which is ‘just play like Clem/Olivera’, and it might work out. Equally maybe Maru just can’t/wont adopt those kind of gameplans these days.
It’s a very stylistic game, part of what adds to the tapestry and very, very few players even with the hypothetical skill set can’t necessarily switch it up even if it would be to their benefit at times. herO’s been a madman his whole career, and at times could maybe have benefitted from taking some notes from Stats, and vice-versa but that’s just not his game.
Perhaps Maru is experiencing something a bit similar these days. It’s not like he can’t be aware of some approaches that have borne fruit against Serral in recent times but maybe he just can’t make them work for whatever reason.
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On June 03 2024 14:03 goldensail wrote:
It stops being fun after being on the short end of the stick for 5+ years.
Zergs have done well in this tournament again, but yes it's Serral who leads the pack, I always thought Reynor had potential but he doesn't seem to be trying hard enough. Dark is retiring soon so understandable.
What Serral has shown, is that when you fully exploit Zerg's econ advantage, it doesn't matter how good Terrans micro their units. So I think "we get what we get" is a more equitable observation.
I do think Maru should've made an adjustment by game 2 or 3. After watching Serral/Oli games, he should've observed how Oli was able to use a narrow timing window to all-in and basically have a gambler's chance (Oli has been Serral's practice partner for some time so it's not surprising he knows what's the most realistic option). Perhaps Maru thought he could survive the mid game since no one is better at defending than he is, but when things didn't work out in G1/G2 surely a chance is better than nothing?
Do you even watch these games or do you just enjoy trolling ? Oliveira played better than Maru. He was able to make it close against Serral. Maru played badly. He clearly has some kind of mental block against Serral, which is a shame since we dont seem to get any good games between them any more. Funny thing is, even without perfect/very good play, Maru is very capable of defeating other good zergs like Reynor, Dark, Solar etc. even easily. Zerg has gotten nerfed, maps are more terran favoured than in a long time and generally the matchup is pretty well balanced, maybe even bit terran favoured atm.
What all of these points prove is that its not about the balance at all. You just HAVE TO play extremely well against the best player in the world to have a chance to beat him. It is possible. Oliveira said he has had very good results against Serral in practice. And even Maru was close to getting a map last time these two collided in a very zerg heavily favoured map. How on earth was that possible ??? By playing an excellent game. That is something we havent seen from Maru besides that one map in eight possible encounters. And that isnt enough and it shouldnt be when playing with the highest stakes.
Serral has amazing form at the moment and is crushing practically everyone. He plays zerg like a hive mind and has practically no weaknesses in his play. He makes so much less mistakes than everyone else in the field, that he makes the game look imbalanced at times. It has absolutely nothing to do with balance though.
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On June 03 2024 16:15 Starcloud wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2024 14:03 goldensail wrote:
It stops being fun after being on the short end of the stick for 5+ years.
Zergs have done well in this tournament again, but yes it's Serral who leads the pack, I always thought Reynor had potential but he doesn't seem to be trying hard enough. Dark is retiring soon so understandable.
What Serral has shown, is that when you fully exploit Zerg's econ advantage, it doesn't matter how good Terrans micro their units. So I think "we get what we get" is a more equitable observation.
I do think Maru should've made an adjustment by game 2 or 3. After watching Serral/Oli games, he should've observed how Oli was able to use a narrow timing window to all-in and basically have a gambler's chance (Oli has been Serral's practice partner for some time so it's not surprising he knows what's the most realistic option). Perhaps Maru thought he could survive the mid game since no one is better at defending than he is, but when things didn't work out in G1/G2 surely a chance is better than nothing? Do you even watch these games or do you just enjoy trolling ? Oliveira played better than Maru. He was able to make it close against Serral. Maru played badly. He clearly has some kind of mental block against Serral, which is a shame since we dont seem to get any good games between them any more. Funny thing is, even without perfect/very good play, Maru is very capable of defeating other good zergs like Reynor, Dark, Solar etc. even easily. Zerg has gotten nerfed, maps are more terran favoured than in a long time and generally the matchup is pretty well balanced, maybe even bit terran favoured atm. What all of these points prove is that its not about the balance at all. You just HAVE TO play extremely well against the best player in the world to have a chance to beat him. It is possible. Oliveira said he has had very good results against Serral in practice. And even Maru was close to getting a map last time these two collided in a very zerg heavily favoured map. How on earth was that possible ??? By playing an excellent game. That is something we havent seen from Maru besides that one map in eight possible encounters. And that isnt enough and it shouldnt be when playing with the highest stakes. Serral has amazing form at the moment and is crushing practically everyone. He plays zerg like a hive mind and has practically no weaknesses in his play. He makes so much less mistakes than everyone else in the field, that he makes the game look imbalanced at times. It has absolutely nothing to do with balance though.
its pointless arguing with this guy, check his post history he has been balance whining for years and he also doesnt understand the game or how serral adapted his play from one series to the other and basically faked out maru several times doing dfiferent variations of similar openings
for example when maru played conservatively against roach opening on the very small map he got crushed by the 2 carapace + kiteness plating timing (no baneling nest)
then maru played greedy against what looked to be the same opening on the last map but got punished hard by 1-1 roach ravager and nydus play
there are many small mindgames going on in the games and serral is getting the best of maru every time
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Ruotuväki / Veikka Tammisuo
Was it the first time ever when SC2 player won a tournament while serving in the military?
Excellent Joona, bloody excellent! o7
Some more off-duty days (kuntoisuusloma) of training time should be granted for your distinguished, exemplary, and valiant effort!
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I enjoy this thread even more now :D
Also, I miss the day where balance whining had actual consequences here.
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This community is an amazing demonstration of recency bias.
It's a Greatest of All Time list, not a Greatest Since 2018 list.
Or maybe I'm just an amazing demonstration of nostalgia bias!
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On June 03 2024 16:15 Starcloud wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2024 14:03 goldensail wrote:
It stops being fun after being on the short end of the stick for 5+ years.
Zergs have done well in this tournament again, but yes it's Serral who leads the pack, I always thought Reynor had potential but he doesn't seem to be trying hard enough. Dark is retiring soon so understandable.
What Serral has shown, is that when you fully exploit Zerg's econ advantage, it doesn't matter how good Terrans micro their units. So I think "we get what we get" is a more equitable observation.
I do think Maru should've made an adjustment by game 2 or 3. After watching Serral/Oli games, he should've observed how Oli was able to use a narrow timing window to all-in and basically have a gambler's chance (Oli has been Serral's practice partner for some time so it's not surprising he knows what's the most realistic option). Perhaps Maru thought he could survive the mid game since no one is better at defending than he is, but when things didn't work out in G1/G2 surely a chance is better than nothing? Do you even watch these games or do you just enjoy trolling ? Oliveira played better than Maru. He was able to make it close against Serral. Maru played badly. He clearly has some kind of mental block against Serral, which is a shame since we dont seem to get any good games between them any more. Funny thing is, even without perfect/very good play, Maru is very capable of defeating other good zergs like Reynor, Dark, Solar etc. even easily. Zerg has gotten nerfed, maps are more terran favoured than in a long time and generally the matchup is pretty well balanced, maybe even bit terran favoured atm. What all of these points prove is that its not about the balance at all. You just HAVE TO play extremely well against the best player in the world to have a chance to beat him. It is possible. Oliveira said he has had very good results against Serral in practice. And even Maru was close to getting a map last time these two collided in a very zerg heavily favoured map. How on earth was that possible ??? By playing an excellent game. That is something we havent seen from Maru besides that one map in eight possible encounters. And that isnt enough and it shouldnt be when playing with the highest stakes. Serral has amazing form at the moment and is crushing practically everyone. He plays zerg like a hive mind and has practically no weaknesses in his play. He makes so much less mistakes than everyone else in the field, that he makes the game look imbalanced at times. It has absolutely nothing to do with balance though.
Oli didn't play better, he played different.
SCBoy, being very close to Oli, has talked about how Oli still has trouble playing against Shin (overwhelmingly). Maru has not lost to Shin ever.
If you've watched the game and you don't understand the fundamental reason Oli was able to make it close while Maru didn't, perhaps you should listen more.
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France13021 Posts
On June 03 2024 17:58 MJG wrote:
This community is an amazing demonstration of recency bias.
It's a Greatest of All Time list, not a Greatest Since 2018 list.
Or maybe I'm just an amazing demonstration of nostalgia bias!
In these type of cases, on smash bros they make GOAT lists every few years.
This list is done and over, the next list will be made whenever (it takes a lot of work from multiple people to reach a good result) enough community members feel like it.
To me, this recent win from Serral is interesting but the real deal in terms of « moving up » the ladder will be at EWC.
Some « young » players like Reynor and Clem can still climb up, or even Oliveira who showed that he can still make the crowd go nuts 
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On June 03 2024 17:58 MJG wrote:
This community is an amazing demonstration of recency bias.
It's a Greatest of All Time list, not a Greatest Since 2018 list.
Or maybe I'm just an amazing demonstration of nostalgia bias!
Well there is one guy who wins much more tournaments and money in half of the time of the other guy... don't know what else to say
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France13021 Posts
On June 03 2024 18:50 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2024 17:58 MJG wrote:
This community is an amazing demonstration of recency bias.
It's a Greatest of All Time list, not a Greatest Since 2018 list.
Or maybe I'm just an amazing demonstration of nostalgia bias! Well there is one guy who wins much more tournaments and money in half of the time of the other guy... don't know what else to say
On the other hand, Rogue won A LOT of money from very little practice time (mainly when zerg was OP and you could abuse it to win big checks), does that mean he is the goat? 
Maru / Serral / Neeb were (afaik) known to practice steadily / all the time, not just before tourneys etc.
They probably tried different approaches (some yielded good results, others not as much), but it's a complex matter.
It's too soon to update the list though (imo), let's wait after EWC for a temporary "in-between" list (depending on the future of the scene)
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On June 03 2024 18:50 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2024 17:58 MJG wrote:
This community is an amazing demonstration of recency bias.
It's a Greatest of All Time list, not a Greatest Since 2018 list.
Or maybe I'm just an amazing demonstration of nostalgia bias! Well there is one guy who wins much more tournaments and money in half of the time of the other guy... don't know what else to say
That the shallow-as-a-shower depth of competition since the Korean scene collapsed has led to an environment were it's easier to accumulate back-to-back wins than it would be with a fully-functioning scene?
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On June 03 2024 19:03 MJG wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2024 18:50 Harris1st wrote:On June 03 2024 17:58 MJG wrote:
This community is an amazing demonstration of recency bias.
It's a Greatest of All Time list, not a Greatest Since 2018 list.
Or maybe I'm just an amazing demonstration of nostalgia bias! Well there is one guy who wins much more tournaments and money in half of the time of the other guy... don't know what else to say That the shallow-as-a-shower depth of competition since the Korean scene collapsed has led to an environment were it's easier to accumulate back-to-back wins than it would be with a fully-functioning scene?
Acting like Maru didn't win majority of his tournaments after 2018 as well.
Yeah he had one OSL one SSL and was a very good pro league player before 2018. But the gap between him and Serral is much bigger (9 premiers), it's just not enough to make up the difference anymore.
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On June 03 2024 18:57 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2024 18:50 Harris1st wrote:On June 03 2024 17:58 MJG wrote:
This community is an amazing demonstration of recency bias.
It's a Greatest of All Time list, not a Greatest Since 2018 list.
Or maybe I'm just an amazing demonstration of nostalgia bias! Well there is one guy who wins much more tournaments and money in half of the time of the other guy... don't know what else to say On the other hand, Rogue won A LOT of money from very little practice time (mainly when zerg was OP and you could abuse it to win big checks), does that mean he is the goat? Maru / Serral / Neeb were (afaik) known to practice steadily / all the time, not just before tourneys etc. They probably tried different approaches (some yielded good results, others not as much), but it's a complex matter. It's too soon to update the list though (imo), let's wait after EWC for a temporary "in-between" list (depending on the future of the scene)
May I remind you that this "list" is still only an opinion piece from Miz not some widely accepted thing like the laws of physics. And even if it were, the one guy bopped the other guy 4:0 two times and won in both big tournaments since release of said list.
Sure Rogue doesn't practice at all. Bet he doesn't even know the rules
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On June 03 2024 19:03 MJG wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2024 18:50 Harris1st wrote:On June 03 2024 17:58 MJG wrote:
This community is an amazing demonstration of recency bias.
It's a Greatest of All Time list, not a Greatest Since 2018 list.
Or maybe I'm just an amazing demonstration of nostalgia bias! Well there is one guy who wins much more tournaments and money in half of the time of the other guy... don't know what else to say That the shallow-as-a-shower depth of competition since the Korean scene collapsed has led to an environment were it's easier to accumulate back-to-back wins than it would be with a fully-functioning scene?
Ah yes that's why Maru is having such an easy time winning tournaments all over the world since the "collapse" ... oh wait
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France13021 Posts
On June 03 2024 20:14 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2024 18:57 Poopi wrote:On June 03 2024 18:50 Harris1st wrote:On June 03 2024 17:58 MJG wrote:
This community is an amazing demonstration of recency bias.
It's a Greatest of All Time list, not a Greatest Since 2018 list.
Or maybe I'm just an amazing demonstration of nostalgia bias! Well there is one guy who wins much more tournaments and money in half of the time of the other guy... don't know what else to say On the other hand, Rogue won A LOT of money from very little practice time (mainly when zerg was OP and you could abuse it to win big checks), does that mean he is the goat? Maru / Serral / Neeb were (afaik) known to practice steadily / all the time, not just before tourneys etc. They probably tried different approaches (some yielded good results, others not as much), but it's a complex matter. It's too soon to update the list though (imo), let's wait after EWC for a temporary "in-between" list (depending on the future of the scene) May I remind you that this "list" is still only an opinion piece from Miz not some widely accepted thing like the laws of physics. And even if it were, the one guy bopped the other guy 4:0 two times and won in both big tournaments since release of said list. Sure Rogue doesn't practice at all. Bet he doesn't even know the rules
I mean we don't know everything about physics either.*
The fact that something is widely accepted doesn't make it "true", it just makes it true "at this specific timeframe/environment"
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On June 03 2024 16:33 UnLarva wrote:Ruotuväki / Veikka TammisuoWas it the first time ever when SC2 player won a tournament while serving in the military? Excellent Joona, bloody excellent! o7 Some more off-duty days (kuntoisuusloma) of training time should be granted for your distinguished, exemplary, and valiant effort!
Korean military service is totally different from the Finish one. People like Rogue, Trap, Stats and others can't take hours practicing or making the moneys when doing the military service. So they are practically in "sleep mode" for a duration of two years. While Serral has been exempted from doing these prior to the tournament.
So, we can't compare saying that Serral is the first Sc2 player to win the championship while doing service. This is unfair comparison to those who can't even play when doing military service .
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EPT![[image loading]](https://ruotuvaki.fi/documents/1951245/0/RV5_2024_Veikka_Tammisuo-2.jpg/a0e21abe-a07c-cc5e-4d4d-57b24bd885ab?t=1713854129526)
