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Northern Ireland24945 Posts
On April 30 2024 07:27 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2024 06:28 WombaT wrote:On April 30 2024 06:09 Poopi wrote:On April 30 2024 04:55 Balnazza wrote:On April 30 2024 02:21 Poopi wrote:
Maru is Starcraft 2. People will remember StarCraft 2 with Maru as the legend.
If you ask the majority of people who at some point in time have been fans of SC2, most of them probably can't even remember who Maru is. HuK and Naniwa would probably get more "that is SC2"-answers than Maru. If we only focus on the remaining people who are still interested in SC2, there is a split between Serral, Maru and Rogue, though from feeling I would say the quantities go Serral > Maru > Rogue. So no, Maru isn't Starcraft 2. And people will remember him as "A legend", not "THE legend". If you want to see how it looks when someone is "The Legend" of a game, look at TheViper in AoE2. Even now, when he is clearly not the best player in the world anymore, he is still considered to be the biggest legend, just from his legacy, his skill, the way he innovated the game, his dominance, but also the impact he had on the community. Compared to that, Maru is just an extremly boring player who is good. Sure, very good, extremly good, but that's it. His most exciting storyline is "can't win a World Championship to save his life"...what a legend... Maru's storyline with WC is the same as Messi storyline in football though. Guess who is the soccer goat?  Not Messi? I mean he’d get my vote but it’s a rather highly disputed one. Maru’s got a great claim, but he’s not Flash. A significant proportion of the community don’t consider him the dude Flash is not Maru either, not anywhere near as talented (semi joking, it’s close but Maru really is out of this world). Flash has been great in BW, but « bad » at sc2 and would have been eaten alive by INno sooner or later. Since he got caught in the crypto scandal, his legacy will probably be ternished a bit and a player like Rain who has been incredibly good in both StarCraft and different eras will probably have a better claim at GOAT than Flash. No disrespect to Flash, but even though he was the obvious goat for some time, what he does outside the game matters as well for that conversation. It’s like super smash bros melee. People were so focused on the « five » gods, that they forgot that they were just human, they just needed another human to show other players the way (it was Leffen ultimately), then everyone would follow. It’s the same for Flash, BW is still going strong since it’s an absolute great game, and some players keep honing their legacy inside and outside the game. Betting / crypto affinity in KR is problematic because it can prevent you from playing / appearing in public etc, so you need to take that into account for your legacy, not just your in game achievements (see Life). And « of all time » is kinda biased, because it actually evolves over time, but it makes for great discussions.
Flash wasnt bad at SC2, he had a good PL record, some decent placements and actually won a Premier tournament.
And he’s just absurdly good at BW, to a ridiculous degree. Even other top, top pros frame it as Flash and then everyone else.
I think one can make an argument that somebody like Rain is the gold standard if we’re talking somebody who was top tier in 2 big RTS games sure. But Maru did absolutely jack in any other game so why bring that into the discussion in the first place?
In BW if anyone suggests anybody but Flash as the GOAT they’re not taken too seriously, whereas in SC2 it’s not a sign of latent insanity to put forward a name that isn’t Maru.
Basically undisputed GOATs are rare across competitive activities of all kinds. Wayne Gretzky in ice hockey is one such example, hard to argue against Usain Bolt and Flash is in that very select club. Maru is not because you need a legacy that’s so far away from the competition that it’s basically not possible to sensibly argue against.
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United States1840 Posts
On April 30 2024 02:10 ZeroByte13 wrote:Mizenhauer made his choice, it will not change
My evaluations and rankings will obviously change given more information.
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On April 30 2024 08:12 Mizenhauer wrote:
My evaluations and rankings will obviously change given more information. So we can expect this ranking in this series to change any time soon? Didn't expect it, really. Good to know.
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On April 30 2024 08:38 ZeroByte13 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2024 08:12 Mizenhauer wrote:
My evaluations and rankings will obviously change given more information. So we can expect this ranking in this series to change any time soon? Didn't expect it, really. Good to know.
Mizenhauer, next time please rank Serral at, like, number seven or something. Just to make a few people's heads explode.
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On April 30 2024 09:02 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Mizenhauer, next time please rank Serral at, like, number seven or something. Just to make a few people's heads explode. This would be glorious trolling indeed. We'd have a lot of activity on the forum for ages.
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On April 30 2024 06:09 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2024 04:55 Balnazza wrote:On April 30 2024 02:21 Poopi wrote:
Maru is Starcraft 2. People will remember StarCraft 2 with Maru as the legend.
If you ask the majority of people who at some point in time have been fans of SC2, most of them probably can't even remember who Maru is. HuK and Naniwa would probably get more "that is SC2"-answers than Maru. If we only focus on the remaining people who are still interested in SC2, there is a split between Serral, Maru and Rogue, though from feeling I would say the quantities go Serral > Maru > Rogue. So no, Maru isn't Starcraft 2. And people will remember him as "A legend", not "THE legend". If you want to see how it looks when someone is "The Legend" of a game, look at TheViper in AoE2. Even now, when he is clearly not the best player in the world anymore, he is still considered to be the biggest legend, just from his legacy, his skill, the way he innovated the game, his dominance, but also the impact he had on the community. Compared to that, Maru is just an extremly boring player who is good. Sure, very good, extremly good, but that's it. His most exciting storyline is "can't win a World Championship to save his life"...what a legend... Maru's storyline with WC is the same as Messi storyline in football though. Guess who is the soccer goat?
Uhm...Messi has won a WC though? Granted, he basically needed his entire career for it, but still, he has won the biggest trophy there is. And even now people will dispute him, put Ronaldo before him or go even further back and bring the likes of Pele and Maradona into the discussion.
And honestly: When someone hyped up Messi before Qatar, rarely did anyone say "his story is so interesting, like will he ever win a WC?". There was enough excitement around him you could talk about. Not particularly an attribute I would assign to Maru...
People knowing naniwa and huk more than maru are not the people you would ask if you had any desire to actually find out about the communities view on legends lol. No disrespect to either of those players but they haven't been relevant for quite some time now. And how could you have watched sc from that era to now even casually and not know maru?
Please note that I said "if you ask people who at any point were fans of SC2" - I think we can all agree that our scene is far beyond the height of its peak, so of course the fanbase has shrunk considerably. But if someone proclaims with such confidence "Maru is Starcraft 2!" then the name should definetly carry far beyond the current community.
Which, now that I think about it, is ironically a thing you could attribute to Serral (not that I would ever say "he is THE legend of SC2"). Just because of the "Foreigner beats Koreans"-narrative, Serrals name has far more traction into general Esports compared to Maru. Successes at Katowice and BlizzCon also probably travel farther just through the nature of these events. So Esports-fans not living in the HLTV-bubble (last community on the planet to learn how the EWC works apparently...) probably are more likely familiar with Serral than with Maru.
And lol at saying maru is boring like serral isn't also an extremely boring interview generally.
I think he definetly got more entertaining over the years, but sure, that is definetly not a defining quality of his. But with "boring" I didn't particularly mean personality-wise, but "legacy and story"-wise. Personally I couldn't even attest to Marus level of entertainment in interviews, since I usually don't watch translated interviews, so no idea.
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On April 30 2024 06:09 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2024 04:55 Balnazza wrote:On April 30 2024 02:21 Poopi wrote:
Maru is Starcraft 2. People will remember StarCraft 2 with Maru as the legend.
If you ask the majority of people who at some point in time have been fans of SC2, most of them probably can't even remember who Maru is. HuK and Naniwa would probably get more "that is SC2"-answers than Maru. If we only focus on the remaining people who are still interested in SC2, there is a split between Serral, Maru and Rogue, though from feeling I would say the quantities go Serral > Maru > Rogue. So no, Maru isn't Starcraft 2. And people will remember him as "A legend", not "THE legend". If you want to see how it looks when someone is "The Legend" of a game, look at TheViper in AoE2. Even now, when he is clearly not the best player in the world anymore, he is still considered to be the biggest legend, just from his legacy, his skill, the way he innovated the game, his dominance, but also the impact he had on the community. Compared to that, Maru is just an extremly boring player who is good. Sure, very good, extremly good, but that's it. His most exciting storyline is "can't win a World Championship to save his life"...what a legend... Maru's storyline with WC is the same as Messi storyline in football though. Guess who is the soccer goat?
CR7?
Besides, football is a team sport, and if Messi came from San Marino then he'd never win a World Cup. People who take the World Cup into consideration discussing the football GOAT aren't being very bright.
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On April 30 2024 07:27 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2024 06:28 WombaT wrote:On April 30 2024 06:09 Poopi wrote:On April 30 2024 04:55 Balnazza wrote:On April 30 2024 02:21 Poopi wrote:
Maru is Starcraft 2. People will remember StarCraft 2 with Maru as the legend.
If you ask the majority of people who at some point in time have been fans of SC2, most of them probably can't even remember who Maru is. HuK and Naniwa would probably get more "that is SC2"-answers than Maru. If we only focus on the remaining people who are still interested in SC2, there is a split between Serral, Maru and Rogue, though from feeling I would say the quantities go Serral > Maru > Rogue. So no, Maru isn't Starcraft 2. And people will remember him as "A legend", not "THE legend". If you want to see how it looks when someone is "The Legend" of a game, look at TheViper in AoE2. Even now, when he is clearly not the best player in the world anymore, he is still considered to be the biggest legend, just from his legacy, his skill, the way he innovated the game, his dominance, but also the impact he had on the community. Compared to that, Maru is just an extremly boring player who is good. Sure, very good, extremly good, but that's it. His most exciting storyline is "can't win a World Championship to save his life"...what a legend... Maru's storyline with WC is the same as Messi storyline in football though. Guess who is the soccer goat? Not Messi? I mean he’d get my vote but it’s a rather highly disputed one. Maru’s got a great claim, but he’s not Flash. A significant proportion of the community don’t consider him the dude Flash is not Maru either, not anywhere near as talented (semi joking, it’s close but Maru really is out of this world). Flash has been great in BW, but « bad » at sc2 and would have been eaten alive by INno sooner or later. Since he got caught in the crypto scandal, his legacy will probably be ternished a bit and a player like Rain who has been incredibly good in both StarCraft and different eras will probably have a better claim at GOAT than Flash.
what an abomination, to even write this and actually be a writer. If you don't know anything about a topic, it's useful to remain silent about it.
Just absolute insanity.
This is what happens in history too, people distort reality and before you know it everything is remembered incorrectly and wrongfully. 20 years from now some guy will stumble upon these articles and convince himself maru was the goat, when everyone who has actually watched sc2 in the last 6 years knows there knows that Serral is better. At the very least since 2018 when he peaked.
People start putting maru in the same level as flash, when flash has dominated so hard, maru can't even tie flash shoes, its incredible to make a statement like this. Really holy shit
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Northern Ireland24945 Posts
On April 30 2024 12:44 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2024 06:09 Poopi wrote:On April 30 2024 04:55 Balnazza wrote:On April 30 2024 02:21 Poopi wrote:
Maru is Starcraft 2. People will remember StarCraft 2 with Maru as the legend.
If you ask the majority of people who at some point in time have been fans of SC2, most of them probably can't even remember who Maru is. HuK and Naniwa would probably get more "that is SC2"-answers than Maru. If we only focus on the remaining people who are still interested in SC2, there is a split between Serral, Maru and Rogue, though from feeling I would say the quantities go Serral > Maru > Rogue. So no, Maru isn't Starcraft 2. And people will remember him as "A legend", not "THE legend". If you want to see how it looks when someone is "The Legend" of a game, look at TheViper in AoE2. Even now, when he is clearly not the best player in the world anymore, he is still considered to be the biggest legend, just from his legacy, his skill, the way he innovated the game, his dominance, but also the impact he had on the community. Compared to that, Maru is just an extremly boring player who is good. Sure, very good, extremly good, but that's it. His most exciting storyline is "can't win a World Championship to save his life"...what a legend... Maru's storyline with WC is the same as Messi storyline in football though. Guess who is the soccer goat? Uhm...Messi has won a WC though? Granted, he basically needed his entire career for it, but still, he has won the biggest trophy there is. And even now people will dispute him, put Ronaldo before him or go even further back and bring the likes of Pele and Maradona into the discussion. And honestly: When someone hyped up Messi before Qatar, rarely did anyone say "his story is so interesting, like will he ever win a WC?". There was enough excitement around him you could talk about. Not particularly an attribute I would assign to Maru... Show nested quote +People knowing naniwa and huk more than maru are not the people you would ask if you had any desire to actually find out about the communities view on legends lol. No disrespect to either of those players but they haven't been relevant for quite some time now. And how could you have watched sc from that era to now even casually and not know maru? Please note that I said "if you ask people who at any point were fans of SC2" - I think we can all agree that our scene is far beyond the height of its peak, so of course the fanbase has shrunk considerably. But if someone proclaims with such confidence "Maru is Starcraft 2!" then the name should definetly carry far beyond the current community. Which, now that I think about it, is ironically a thing you could attribute to Serral (not that I would ever say "he is THE legend of SC2"). Just because of the "Foreigner beats Koreans"-narrative, Serrals name has far more traction into general Esports compared to Maru. Successes at Katowice and BlizzCon also probably travel farther just through the nature of these events. So Esports-fans not living in the HLTV-bubble (last community on the planet to learn how the EWC works apparently...) probably are more likely familiar with Serral than with Maru. Show nested quote +And lol at saying maru is boring like serral isn't also an extremely boring interview generally. I think he definetly got more entertaining over the years, but sure, that is definetly not a defining quality of his. But with "boring" I didn't particularly mean personality-wise, but "legacy and story"-wise. Personally I couldn't even attest to Marus level of entertainment in interviews, since I usually don't watch translated interviews, so no idea.
Serral’s name maybe has slightly more traction because general eSport or eSport-adjacent content creators will make vids or articles about him breaking the Korean stranglehold. Flash may appear in a ‘greatest gamers of all time’ that non-SC fans will get exposed to, I’ve watched a rather entertaining video for a more general audience about Flash’s ASL random run too.
Which Maru generally doesn’t, but that doesn’t really mean all that much. David Beckham was a bloody phenomenal footballer too, and almost underrated by virtue of being a kind of recognisable, crossover celebrity footballer, but that status doesn’t mean all that much when weighted against what actual football fans who follow it closely think.
I only push back against ridiculous claims that Maru is considered SC2’s Flash, because he isn’t.
If he was, we wouldn’t have pages upon pages of debate, it’d simply be ‘yeah Maru’s the GOAT let’s sort the order of the remaining candidates’
Can one argue they don’t personally like Taylor Swift’s output all that much? Of course, opinions, arseholes and all that! Can one argue that Taylor Swift isn’t popular? No, you can’t that’s preposterous.
Poopi claiming that Maru is some consensus THE SC2 guy is in that preposterous territory
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None of the players before or after KESPA entered mattered for any GOAT discussion. Right after Kespa players entered, GSL was pretty much all Kespa players forcing ESF players to go compete outside of Korea. Right after team houses imploded, suddenly some random no name American Protoss wins against koreans? This was between 2013-2016. Any other title before or after that doesn't count.
Right after the forced switch to SC2, Killer and Sea were pretty much the only BW players that stayed, dominating everyone else by a large margin. I would not even have Killer or Sea in the GOAT BW player discussion because they dominated 2013, when there were only 2 pro players left and hundreds of amateurs?
To even have Serral in the conversation for top 100 is just copium by the SC2 community. If the NBA was abandoned tomorrow and only some bunch of college basketball player were left, I would not call some random kid that never played pro basketball the GOAT over Michael Jordan just because the kid has better stats playing against other random kids.
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Northern Ireland24945 Posts
On May 02 2024 19:44 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:
None of the players before or after KESPA entered mattered for any GOAT discussion. Right after Kespa players entered, GSL was pretty much all Kespa players forcing ESF players to go compete outside of Korea. Right after team houses imploded, suddenly some random no name American Protoss wins against koreans? This was between 2013-2016. Any other title before or after that doesn't count.
Right after the forced switch to SC2, Killer and Sea were pretty much the only BW players that stayed, dominating everyone else by a large margin. I would not even have Killer or Sea in the GOAT BW player discussion because they dominated 2013, when there were only 2 pro players left and hundreds of amateurs?
To even have Serral in the conversation for top 100 is just copium by the SC2 community. If the NBA was abandoned tomorrow and only some bunch of college basketball player were left, I would not call some random kid that never played pro basketball the GOAT over Michael Jordan just because the kid has better stats playing against other random kids.
You know trolling only works if it’s not obviously trolling right?
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On May 02 2024 19:43 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2024 12:44 Balnazza wrote:On April 30 2024 06:09 Poopi wrote:On April 30 2024 04:55 Balnazza wrote:On April 30 2024 02:21 Poopi wrote:
Maru is Starcraft 2. People will remember StarCraft 2 with Maru as the legend.
If you ask the majority of people who at some point in time have been fans of SC2, most of them probably can't even remember who Maru is. HuK and Naniwa would probably get more "that is SC2"-answers than Maru. If we only focus on the remaining people who are still interested in SC2, there is a split between Serral, Maru and Rogue, though from feeling I would say the quantities go Serral > Maru > Rogue. So no, Maru isn't Starcraft 2. And people will remember him as "A legend", not "THE legend". If you want to see how it looks when someone is "The Legend" of a game, look at TheViper in AoE2. Even now, when he is clearly not the best player in the world anymore, he is still considered to be the biggest legend, just from his legacy, his skill, the way he innovated the game, his dominance, but also the impact he had on the community. Compared to that, Maru is just an extremly boring player who is good. Sure, very good, extremly good, but that's it. His most exciting storyline is "can't win a World Championship to save his life"...what a legend... Maru's storyline with WC is the same as Messi storyline in football though. Guess who is the soccer goat? Uhm...Messi has won a WC though? Granted, he basically needed his entire career for it, but still, he has won the biggest trophy there is. And even now people will dispute him, put Ronaldo before him or go even further back and bring the likes of Pele and Maradona into the discussion. And honestly: When someone hyped up Messi before Qatar, rarely did anyone say "his story is so interesting, like will he ever win a WC?". There was enough excitement around him you could talk about. Not particularly an attribute I would assign to Maru... People knowing naniwa and huk more than maru are not the people you would ask if you had any desire to actually find out about the communities view on legends lol. No disrespect to either of those players but they haven't been relevant for quite some time now. And how could you have watched sc from that era to now even casually and not know maru? Please note that I said "if you ask people who at any point were fans of SC2" - I think we can all agree that our scene is far beyond the height of its peak, so of course the fanbase has shrunk considerably. But if someone proclaims with such confidence "Maru is Starcraft 2!" then the name should definetly carry far beyond the current community. Which, now that I think about it, is ironically a thing you could attribute to Serral (not that I would ever say "he is THE legend of SC2"). Just because of the "Foreigner beats Koreans"-narrative, Serrals name has far more traction into general Esports compared to Maru. Successes at Katowice and BlizzCon also probably travel farther just through the nature of these events. So Esports-fans not living in the HLTV-bubble (last community on the planet to learn how the EWC works apparently...) probably are more likely familiar with Serral than with Maru. And lol at saying maru is boring like serral isn't also an extremely boring interview generally. I think he definetly got more entertaining over the years, but sure, that is definetly not a defining quality of his. But with "boring" I didn't particularly mean personality-wise, but "legacy and story"-wise. Personally I couldn't even attest to Marus level of entertainment in interviews, since I usually don't watch translated interviews, so no idea. Serral’s name maybe has slightly more traction because general eSport or eSport-adjacent content creators will make vids or articles about him breaking the Korean stranglehold. Flash may appear in a ‘greatest gamers of all time’ that non-SC fans will get exposed to, I’ve watched a rather entertaining video for a more general audience about Flash’s ASL random run too. Which Maru generally doesn’t, but that doesn’t really mean all that much. David Beckham was a bloody phenomenal footballer too, and almost underrated by virtue of being a kind of recognisable, crossover celebrity footballer, but that status doesn’t mean all that much when weighted against what actual football fans who follow it closely think. I only push back against ridiculous claims that Maru is considered SC2’s Flash, because he isn’t. If he was, we wouldn’t have pages upon pages of debate, it’d simply be ‘yeah Maru’s the GOAT let’s sort the order of the remaining candidates’ Can one argue they don’t personally like Taylor Swift’s output all that much? Of course, opinions, arseholes and all that! Can one argue that Taylor Swift isn’t popular? No, you can’t that’s preposterous. Poopi claiming that Maru is some consensus THE SC2 guy is in that preposterous territory
"
It's infact such a crazy statement that everything this guy says should be taken with a grain of salt. Who in their right mind, who knows and follows both games, would say something like that.
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Bisutopia19225 Posts
On April 30 2024 07:27 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2024 06:28 WombaT wrote:On April 30 2024 06:09 Poopi wrote:On April 30 2024 04:55 Balnazza wrote:On April 30 2024 02:21 Poopi wrote:
Maru is Starcraft 2. People will remember StarCraft 2 with Maru as the legend.
If you ask the majority of people who at some point in time have been fans of SC2, most of them probably can't even remember who Maru is. HuK and Naniwa would probably get more "that is SC2"-answers than Maru. If we only focus on the remaining people who are still interested in SC2, there is a split between Serral, Maru and Rogue, though from feeling I would say the quantities go Serral > Maru > Rogue. So no, Maru isn't Starcraft 2. And people will remember him as "A legend", not "THE legend". If you want to see how it looks when someone is "The Legend" of a game, look at TheViper in AoE2. Even now, when he is clearly not the best player in the world anymore, he is still considered to be the biggest legend, just from his legacy, his skill, the way he innovated the game, his dominance, but also the impact he had on the community. Compared to that, Maru is just an extremly boring player who is good. Sure, very good, extremly good, but that's it. His most exciting storyline is "can't win a World Championship to save his life"...what a legend... Maru's storyline with WC is the same as Messi storyline in football though. Guess who is the soccer goat? Not Messi? I mean he’d get my vote but it’s a rather highly disputed one. Maru’s got a great claim, but he’s not Flash. A significant proportion of the community don’t consider him the dude Flash is not Maru either, not anywhere near as talented (semi joking, it’s close but Maru really is out of this world). Since he got caught in the crypto scandal, his legacy will probably be ternished a bit and a player like Rain who has been incredibly good in both StarCraft and different eras will probably have a better claim at GOAT than Flash.
It's like you didn't spend the last 15 years watching Brood War or Flash. It's not really worth the energy to arguing your opinion, but I will just say I disagree wholeheartedly.
Only thing I will add, is that in SC2 there's a legitimate discussion as to who is #1. In Brood War, it doesn't come close. It's Flash by miles and then a fight for who is #2. So if you put Maru far above Flash, then it feels like the argument is less about the players and more about your opinion as to the difficulty of each game.
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Bisutopia19225 Posts
+ Show Spoiler [Some stuff about Flash] +For those who don't know much about him: Major Tournament Achievements of Flash:First Place Finishes:- OnGameNet Starleague (OSL):
- Bacchus OSL (2008)
- Batoo OSL (2009)
- Korean Air OSL Season 1 (2010)
- Korean Air OSL Season 2 (2010)
- Jin Air OSL (2011)
- MBCGame StarCraft League (MSL):
- Arena MSL (2008)
- Nate MSL (2009)
- NATE MSL (2010)
- Bigfile MSL (2012)
- World Cyber Games:
- World Cyber Games 2010
- World Cyber Games 2011
- GOMTV Star Invitational (2008)
- Incruit StarCraft League (2008)
- AfreecaTV Starleague (ASL):
- ASL Season 2 (2016)
- ASL Season 4 (2017)
- ASL Season 6 (2018)
- ASL Season 9 (2020)
Second Place Finishes:- OnGameNet Starleague (OSL):
- EVER OSL (2007)
- MBCGame StarCraft League (MSL):
- GOMTV MSL Season 4 (2008)
- PDPop MSL (2009)
- AfreecaTV Starleague (ASL):
- ASL Season 3 (2017)
- ASL Season 5 (2017)
- ASL Season 7 (2019)
Third and Fourth Place Finishes:- OnGameNet Starleague (OSL):
- EVER2008 Averatec-Intel Classic Season 2 (2008) [3rd]
- Incruit OSL (2008) [4th]
- MBCGame StarCraft League (MSL):
- 2009 Lost Saga MSL [3rd]
- 2010 Hana Daetoo Securities MSL [4th]
- AfreecaTV Starleague (ASL):
- ASL Season 8 (2019) [3rd]
KT Rolster Team Finishes in ProleagueFirst Place Finishes:- 2010-2011 Shinhan Bank Proleague
- 2011-2012 SK Planet Proleague
- 2009-2010 Shinhan Bank Winner's League
Second Place Finishes:- 2009-2010 Shinhan Bank Proleague
- 2012-2013 SK Planet Proleague
- 2010-2011 Shinhan Bank Winner's League
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France12771 Posts
On May 02 2024 20:29 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2024 07:27 Poopi wrote:On April 30 2024 06:28 WombaT wrote:On April 30 2024 06:09 Poopi wrote:On April 30 2024 04:55 Balnazza wrote:On April 30 2024 02:21 Poopi wrote:
Maru is Starcraft 2. People will remember StarCraft 2 with Maru as the legend.
If you ask the majority of people who at some point in time have been fans of SC2, most of them probably can't even remember who Maru is. HuK and Naniwa would probably get more "that is SC2"-answers than Maru. If we only focus on the remaining people who are still interested in SC2, there is a split between Serral, Maru and Rogue, though from feeling I would say the quantities go Serral > Maru > Rogue. So no, Maru isn't Starcraft 2. And people will remember him as "A legend", not "THE legend". If you want to see how it looks when someone is "The Legend" of a game, look at TheViper in AoE2. Even now, when he is clearly not the best player in the world anymore, he is still considered to be the biggest legend, just from his legacy, his skill, the way he innovated the game, his dominance, but also the impact he had on the community. Compared to that, Maru is just an extremly boring player who is good. Sure, very good, extremly good, but that's it. His most exciting storyline is "can't win a World Championship to save his life"...what a legend... Maru's storyline with WC is the same as Messi storyline in football though. Guess who is the soccer goat? Not Messi? I mean he’d get my vote but it’s a rather highly disputed one. Maru’s got a great claim, but he’s not Flash. A significant proportion of the community don’t consider him the dude Flash is not Maru either, not anywhere near as talented (semi joking, it’s close but Maru really is out of this world). Since he got caught in the crypto scandal, his legacy will probably be ternished a bit and a player like Rain who has been incredibly good in both StarCraft and different eras will probably have a better claim at GOAT than Flash. It's like you didn't spend the last 15 years watching Brood War or Flash. It's not really worth the energy to arguing your opinion, but I will just say I disagree wholeheartedly. Only thing I will add, is that in SC2 there's a legitimate discussion as to who is #1. In Brood War, it doesn't come close. It's Flash by miles and then a fight for who is #2. So if you put Maru far above Flash, then it feels like the argument is less about the players and more about your opinion as to the difficulty of each game.
My point is not that Maru is a better candidate for GOAT at SC2 than Flash is for BW.
Flash is the obvious BW GOAT.
My point is that Maru is a more talented gamer than Flash, as in his natural ability is imho out of this world.
BW and SC2 have different skillsets, Flash would probably be a better protoss in sc2 than terran, so I guess he should have switched race.
But once again, "talent" is a difficult thing to gauge, it's a matter of feeling. And after watching various esports since around 2004, with "gods" level talents such as the OGRES / Final Boss in Halo, the five gods in Super Smash Bros Melee and the recent scene, the various eras of League of Legends, Overwatch, a bit of Counter-Strike, etc. I have never seen someone as "alien" like talent wise as Maru.
Sure, he didn't live up to this potential. But it is pretty difficult to live up to such a potential when there are other monsters around, and that you know your potential is incredible.
Imho, and I emphasize this, it's merely an opinion, Maru failing to live up to the expectations placed on him are akin to William James Sidis failing to meet up the expectations of his IQ. It's lonely at the top.
On May 02 2024 18:52 Comedy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2024 07:27 Poopi wrote:On April 30 2024 06:28 WombaT wrote:On April 30 2024 06:09 Poopi wrote:On April 30 2024 04:55 Balnazza wrote:On April 30 2024 02:21 Poopi wrote:
Maru is Starcraft 2. People will remember StarCraft 2 with Maru as the legend.
If you ask the majority of people who at some point in time have been fans of SC2, most of them probably can't even remember who Maru is. HuK and Naniwa would probably get more "that is SC2"-answers than Maru. If we only focus on the remaining people who are still interested in SC2, there is a split between Serral, Maru and Rogue, though from feeling I would say the quantities go Serral > Maru > Rogue. So no, Maru isn't Starcraft 2. And people will remember him as "A legend", not "THE legend". If you want to see how it looks when someone is "The Legend" of a game, look at TheViper in AoE2. Even now, when he is clearly not the best player in the world anymore, he is still considered to be the biggest legend, just from his legacy, his skill, the way he innovated the game, his dominance, but also the impact he had on the community. Compared to that, Maru is just an extremly boring player who is good. Sure, very good, extremly good, but that's it. His most exciting storyline is "can't win a World Championship to save his life"...what a legend... Maru's storyline with WC is the same as Messi storyline in football though. Guess who is the soccer goat? Not Messi? I mean he’d get my vote but it’s a rather highly disputed one. Maru’s got a great claim, but he’s not Flash. A significant proportion of the community don’t consider him the dude Flash is not Maru either, not anywhere near as talented (semi joking, it’s close but Maru really is out of this world). Flash has been great in BW, but « bad » at sc2 and would have been eaten alive by INno sooner or later. Since he got caught in the crypto scandal, his legacy will probably be ternished a bit and a player like Rain who has been incredibly good in both StarCraft and different eras will probably have a better claim at GOAT than Flash. what an abomination, to even write this and actually be a writer. If you don't know anything about a topic, it's useful to remain silent about it. Just absolute insanity. This is what happens in history too, people distort reality and before you know it everything is remembered incorrectly and wrongfully. 20 years from now some guy will stumble upon these articles and convince himself maru was the goat, when everyone who has actually watched sc2 in the last 6 years knows there knows that Serral is better. At the very least since 2018 when he peaked. People start putting maru in the same level as flash, when flash has dominated so hard, maru can't even tie flash shoes, its incredible to make a statement like this. Really holy shit
Hello, I have added an edit on my original post so people can get back to this post #715 if they want to know what I actually had in mind. BisuDagger also added appendix about Flash achievements, so future readers should have a more accurate idea of the whole thing.
About the writer thing, that just means that I write articles that are then edited by Waxangel to curate / improve the quality, and then posted as content on tl.net.
So you should have in mind that Poopi posting stuff in a thread is like any other user of the forum, just an user.
Sure, ideally I would try to behave in a more PR and unbiased way, and I try to do that when I post.
But as a sc2 fan / user of tl.net, I have my own biases. As long as these biases don't affect my Poopi the writer work too negatively, and that I behave as well as tolerated for regular users in my Poopi the user posts, all should be good.
2nd edit: I will finally add, that as an human being, I, Poopi, am also subject to health (and notably mental health) issues, so whenever someone reads stuff on the internet written by a human, they should remember that human are flawed and sometimes do things when their state of mind is not the best.
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Northern Ireland24945 Posts
On May 02 2024 21:11 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2024 20:29 BisuDagger wrote:On April 30 2024 07:27 Poopi wrote:On April 30 2024 06:28 WombaT wrote:On April 30 2024 06:09 Poopi wrote:On April 30 2024 04:55 Balnazza wrote:On April 30 2024 02:21 Poopi wrote:
Maru is Starcraft 2. People will remember StarCraft 2 with Maru as the legend.
If you ask the majority of people who at some point in time have been fans of SC2, most of them probably can't even remember who Maru is. HuK and Naniwa would probably get more "that is SC2"-answers than Maru. If we only focus on the remaining people who are still interested in SC2, there is a split between Serral, Maru and Rogue, though from feeling I would say the quantities go Serral > Maru > Rogue. So no, Maru isn't Starcraft 2. And people will remember him as "A legend", not "THE legend". If you want to see how it looks when someone is "The Legend" of a game, look at TheViper in AoE2. Even now, when he is clearly not the best player in the world anymore, he is still considered to be the biggest legend, just from his legacy, his skill, the way he innovated the game, his dominance, but also the impact he had on the community. Compared to that, Maru is just an extremly boring player who is good. Sure, very good, extremly good, but that's it. His most exciting storyline is "can't win a World Championship to save his life"...what a legend... Maru's storyline with WC is the same as Messi storyline in football though. Guess who is the soccer goat? Not Messi? I mean he’d get my vote but it’s a rather highly disputed one. Maru’s got a great claim, but he’s not Flash. A significant proportion of the community don’t consider him the dude Flash is not Maru either, not anywhere near as talented (semi joking, it’s close but Maru really is out of this world). Since he got caught in the crypto scandal, his legacy will probably be ternished a bit and a player like Rain who has been incredibly good in both StarCraft and different eras will probably have a better claim at GOAT than Flash. It's like you didn't spend the last 15 years watching Brood War or Flash. It's not really worth the energy to arguing your opinion, but I will just say I disagree wholeheartedly. Only thing I will add, is that in SC2 there's a legitimate discussion as to who is #1. In Brood War, it doesn't come close. It's Flash by miles and then a fight for who is #2. So if you put Maru far above Flash, then it feels like the argument is less about the players and more about your opinion as to the difficulty of each game. My point is not that Maru is a better candidate for GOAT at SC2 than Flash is for BW. Flash is the obvious BW GOAT. My point is that Maru is a more talented gamer than Flash, as in his natural ability is imho out of this world. BW and SC2 have different skillsets, Flash would probably be a better protoss in sc2 than terran, so I guess he should have switched race. But once again, "talent" is a difficult thing to gauge, it's a matter of feeling. And after watching various esports since around 2004, with "gods" level talents such as the OGRES / Final Boss in Halo, the five gods in Super Smash Bros Melee and the recent scene, the various eras of League of Legends, Overwatch, a bit of Counter-Strike, etc. I have never seen someone as "alien" like talent wise as Maru. Sure, he didn't live up to this potential. But it is pretty difficult to live up to such a potential when there are other monsters around, and that you know your potential is incredible. Imho, and I emphasize this, it's merely an opinion, Maru failing to live up to the expectations placed on him are akin to William James Sidis failing to meet up the expectations of his IQ.
Flash, more dominant in his chosen game. So good at that game that he managed to get a 3rd place playing random. At his second game he was still a very solid pro, with a good Proleague record, some decent Starleague placements. Also was putting in results at the same/younger age than Maru.
Maru’s very good at the obvious, flashy aspects of the game. Flash is the complete RTS package. Maru is probably closer to being a deluxe Clem than SC2’s Flash.
Not meant as a diss at any of these phenomenal players, but it’s way more obvious to us mortals that what Maru can do mechanically is on another level, and he’s not massively lacking in other aspects of the game. Flash both has mechanics for days but also probably the keenest StarCraft brain going.
Hey it’s subjective opinion and talent is notoriously hard to gauge, I think Flash edges it myself but that’s just me.
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On May 02 2024 21:34 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2024 21:11 Poopi wrote:On May 02 2024 20:29 BisuDagger wrote:On April 30 2024 07:27 Poopi wrote:On April 30 2024 06:28 WombaT wrote:On April 30 2024 06:09 Poopi wrote:On April 30 2024 04:55 Balnazza wrote:On April 30 2024 02:21 Poopi wrote:
Maru is Starcraft 2. People will remember StarCraft 2 with Maru as the legend.
If you ask the majority of people who at some point in time have been fans of SC2, most of them probably can't even remember who Maru is. HuK and Naniwa would probably get more "that is SC2"-answers than Maru. If we only focus on the remaining people who are still interested in SC2, there is a split between Serral, Maru and Rogue, though from feeling I would say the quantities go Serral > Maru > Rogue. So no, Maru isn't Starcraft 2. And people will remember him as "A legend", not "THE legend". If you want to see how it looks when someone is "The Legend" of a game, look at TheViper in AoE2. Even now, when he is clearly not the best player in the world anymore, he is still considered to be the biggest legend, just from his legacy, his skill, the way he innovated the game, his dominance, but also the impact he had on the community. Compared to that, Maru is just an extremly boring player who is good. Sure, very good, extremly good, but that's it. His most exciting storyline is "can't win a World Championship to save his life"...what a legend... Maru's storyline with WC is the same as Messi storyline in football though. Guess who is the soccer goat? Not Messi? I mean he’d get my vote but it’s a rather highly disputed one. Maru’s got a great claim, but he’s not Flash. A significant proportion of the community don’t consider him the dude Flash is not Maru either, not anywhere near as talented (semi joking, it’s close but Maru really is out of this world). Since he got caught in the crypto scandal, his legacy will probably be ternished a bit and a player like Rain who has been incredibly good in both StarCraft and different eras will probably have a better claim at GOAT than Flash. It's like you didn't spend the last 15 years watching Brood War or Flash. It's not really worth the energy to arguing your opinion, but I will just say I disagree wholeheartedly. Only thing I will add, is that in SC2 there's a legitimate discussion as to who is #1. In Brood War, it doesn't come close. It's Flash by miles and then a fight for who is #2. So if you put Maru far above Flash, then it feels like the argument is less about the players and more about your opinion as to the difficulty of each game. My point is not that Maru is a better candidate for GOAT at SC2 than Flash is for BW. Flash is the obvious BW GOAT. My point is that Maru is a more talented gamer than Flash, as in his natural ability is imho out of this world. BW and SC2 have different skillsets, Flash would probably be a better protoss in sc2 than terran, so I guess he should have switched race. But once again, "talent" is a difficult thing to gauge, it's a matter of feeling. And after watching various esports since around 2004, with "gods" level talents such as the OGRES / Final Boss in Halo, the five gods in Super Smash Bros Melee and the recent scene, the various eras of League of Legends, Overwatch, a bit of Counter-Strike, etc. I have never seen someone as "alien" like talent wise as Maru. Sure, he didn't live up to this potential. But it is pretty difficult to live up to such a potential when there are other monsters around, and that you know your potential is incredible. Imho, and I emphasize this, it's merely an opinion, Maru failing to live up to the expectations placed on him are akin to William James Sidis failing to meet up the expectations of his IQ. Flash, more dominant in his chosen game. So good at that game that he managed to get a 3rd place playing random. At his second game he was still a very solid pro, with a good Proleague record, some decent Starleague placements. Also was putting in results at the same/younger age than Maru. Maru’s very good at the obvious, flashy aspects of the game. Flash is the complete RTS package. Maru is probably closer to being a deluxe Clem than SC2’s Flash. Not meant as a diss at any of these phenomenal players, but it’s way more obvious to us mortals that what Maru can do mechanically is on another level, and he’s not massively lacking in other aspects of the game. Flash both has mechanics for days but also probably the keenest StarCraft brain going. Hey it’s subjective opinion and talent is notoriously hard to gauge, I think Flash edges it myself but that’s just me.
I agree with your take here. Maru is still the greatest SC2 player, but I don't think he even remotely compares to Flash and Flash's dominance in BW.
When taking into account all of the competitive e-sports over the years, Flash may very well be one of the best competitive gamers of all time, given his unrivaled mastery of one of the most difficult games to have ever existed. Perhaps there are other gamers out there who can compete at such a high level at their game of choice, for just as long as Flash has at Brood War, but I can't imagine there are too many who have the kind of longevity and record that Flash has.
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Bisutopia19225 Posts
On May 02 2024 21:34 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2024 21:11 Poopi wrote:On May 02 2024 20:29 BisuDagger wrote:On April 30 2024 07:27 Poopi wrote:On April 30 2024 06:28 WombaT wrote:On April 30 2024 06:09 Poopi wrote:On April 30 2024 04:55 Balnazza wrote:On April 30 2024 02:21 Poopi wrote:
Maru is Starcraft 2. People will remember StarCraft 2 with Maru as the legend.
If you ask the majority of people who at some point in time have been fans of SC2, most of them probably can't even remember who Maru is. HuK and Naniwa would probably get more "that is SC2"-answers than Maru. If we only focus on the remaining people who are still interested in SC2, there is a split between Serral, Maru and Rogue, though from feeling I would say the quantities go Serral > Maru > Rogue. So no, Maru isn't Starcraft 2. And people will remember him as "A legend", not "THE legend". If you want to see how it looks when someone is "The Legend" of a game, look at TheViper in AoE2. Even now, when he is clearly not the best player in the world anymore, he is still considered to be the biggest legend, just from his legacy, his skill, the way he innovated the game, his dominance, but also the impact he had on the community. Compared to that, Maru is just an extremly boring player who is good. Sure, very good, extremly good, but that's it. His most exciting storyline is "can't win a World Championship to save his life"...what a legend... Maru's storyline with WC is the same as Messi storyline in football though. Guess who is the soccer goat? Not Messi? I mean he’d get my vote but it’s a rather highly disputed one. Maru’s got a great claim, but he’s not Flash. A significant proportion of the community don’t consider him the dude Flash is not Maru either, not anywhere near as talented (semi joking, it’s close but Maru really is out of this world). Since he got caught in the crypto scandal, his legacy will probably be ternished a bit and a player like Rain who has been incredibly good in both StarCraft and different eras will probably have a better claim at GOAT than Flash. It's like you didn't spend the last 15 years watching Brood War or Flash. It's not really worth the energy to arguing your opinion, but I will just say I disagree wholeheartedly. Only thing I will add, is that in SC2 there's a legitimate discussion as to who is #1. In Brood War, it doesn't come close. It's Flash by miles and then a fight for who is #2. So if you put Maru far above Flash, then it feels like the argument is less about the players and more about your opinion as to the difficulty of each game. My point is not that Maru is a better candidate for GOAT at SC2 than Flash is for BW. Flash is the obvious BW GOAT. My point is that Maru is a more talented gamer than Flash, as in his natural ability is imho out of this world. BW and SC2 have different skillsets, Flash would probably be a better protoss in sc2 than terran, so I guess he should have switched race. But once again, "talent" is a difficult thing to gauge, it's a matter of feeling. And after watching various esports since around 2004, with "gods" level talents such as the OGRES / Final Boss in Halo, the five gods in Super Smash Bros Melee and the recent scene, the various eras of League of Legends, Overwatch, a bit of Counter-Strike, etc. I have never seen someone as "alien" like talent wise as Maru. Sure, he didn't live up to this potential. But it is pretty difficult to live up to such a potential when there are other monsters around, and that you know your potential is incredible. Imho, and I emphasize this, it's merely an opinion, Maru failing to live up to the expectations placed on him are akin to William James Sidis failing to meet up the expectations of his IQ. Flash, more dominant in his chosen game. So good at that game that he managed to get a 3rd place playing random. At his second game he was still a very solid pro, with a good Proleague record, some decent Starleague placements. Also was putting in results at the same/younger age than Maru. Maru’s very good at the obvious, flashy aspects of the game. Flash is the complete RTS package. Maru is probably closer to being a deluxe Clem than SC2’s Flash. Not meant as a diss at any of these phenomenal players, but it’s way more obvious to us mortals that what Maru can do mechanically is on another level, and he’s not massively lacking in other aspects of the game. Flash both has mechanics for days but also probably the keenest StarCraft brain going. Hey it’s subjective opinion and talent is notoriously hard to gauge, I think Flash edges it myself but that’s just me.
I think it's the fact that Flash is so good outside mechanics that he never gets credit for macro or micro like other players who are good at just that "one thing". Very rarely has anyone actually ever out micro-ed Flash.
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Northern Ireland24945 Posts
On May 02 2024 22:25 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2024 21:34 WombaT wrote:On May 02 2024 21:11 Poopi wrote:On May 02 2024 20:29 BisuDagger wrote:On April 30 2024 07:27 Poopi wrote:On April 30 2024 06:28 WombaT wrote:On April 30 2024 06:09 Poopi wrote:On April 30 2024 04:55 Balnazza wrote:On April 30 2024 02:21 Poopi wrote:
Maru is Starcraft 2. People will remember StarCraft 2 with Maru as the legend.
If you ask the majority of people who at some point in time have been fans of SC2, most of them probably can't even remember who Maru is. HuK and Naniwa would probably get more "that is SC2"-answers than Maru. If we only focus on the remaining people who are still interested in SC2, there is a split between Serral, Maru and Rogue, though from feeling I would say the quantities go Serral > Maru > Rogue. So no, Maru isn't Starcraft 2. And people will remember him as "A legend", not "THE legend". If you want to see how it looks when someone is "The Legend" of a game, look at TheViper in AoE2. Even now, when he is clearly not the best player in the world anymore, he is still considered to be the biggest legend, just from his legacy, his skill, the way he innovated the game, his dominance, but also the impact he had on the community. Compared to that, Maru is just an extremly boring player who is good. Sure, very good, extremly good, but that's it. His most exciting storyline is "can't win a World Championship to save his life"...what a legend... Maru's storyline with WC is the same as Messi storyline in football though. Guess who is the soccer goat? Not Messi? I mean he’d get my vote but it’s a rather highly disputed one. Maru’s got a great claim, but he’s not Flash. A significant proportion of the community don’t consider him the dude Flash is not Maru either, not anywhere near as talented (semi joking, it’s close but Maru really is out of this world). Since he got caught in the crypto scandal, his legacy will probably be ternished a bit and a player like Rain who has been incredibly good in both StarCraft and different eras will probably have a better claim at GOAT than Flash. It's like you didn't spend the last 15 years watching Brood War or Flash. It's not really worth the energy to arguing your opinion, but I will just say I disagree wholeheartedly. Only thing I will add, is that in SC2 there's a legitimate discussion as to who is #1. In Brood War, it doesn't come close. It's Flash by miles and then a fight for who is #2. So if you put Maru far above Flash, then it feels like the argument is less about the players and more about your opinion as to the difficulty of each game. My point is not that Maru is a better candidate for GOAT at SC2 than Flash is for BW. Flash is the obvious BW GOAT. My point is that Maru is a more talented gamer than Flash, as in his natural ability is imho out of this world. BW and SC2 have different skillsets, Flash would probably be a better protoss in sc2 than terran, so I guess he should have switched race. But once again, "talent" is a difficult thing to gauge, it's a matter of feeling. And after watching various esports since around 2004, with "gods" level talents such as the OGRES / Final Boss in Halo, the five gods in Super Smash Bros Melee and the recent scene, the various eras of League of Legends, Overwatch, a bit of Counter-Strike, etc. I have never seen someone as "alien" like talent wise as Maru. Sure, he didn't live up to this potential. But it is pretty difficult to live up to such a potential when there are other monsters around, and that you know your potential is incredible. Imho, and I emphasize this, it's merely an opinion, Maru failing to live up to the expectations placed on him are akin to William James Sidis failing to meet up the expectations of his IQ. Flash, more dominant in his chosen game. So good at that game that he managed to get a 3rd place playing random. At his second game he was still a very solid pro, with a good Proleague record, some decent Starleague placements. Also was putting in results at the same/younger age than Maru. Maru’s very good at the obvious, flashy aspects of the game. Flash is the complete RTS package. Maru is probably closer to being a deluxe Clem than SC2’s Flash. Not meant as a diss at any of these phenomenal players, but it’s way more obvious to us mortals that what Maru can do mechanically is on another level, and he’s not massively lacking in other aspects of the game. Flash both has mechanics for days but also probably the keenest StarCraft brain going. Hey it’s subjective opinion and talent is notoriously hard to gauge, I think Flash edges it myself but that’s just me. I think it's the fact that Flash is so good outside mechanics that he never gets credit for macro or micro like other players who are good at just that "one thing". Very rarely has anyone actually ever out micro-ed Flash.
Yeah if we were playing StarCraft Top Trumps and splitting up versions skills there’s a lot of 10s and 9s there.
Hell I love Bisu, in all likelihood not as much as you but he’s my favourite BW pro. What’s even he, such a phenomenal player better than Flash at?
Offensive multitasking and being more handsome?
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On May 02 2024 21:42 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2024 21:34 WombaT wrote:On May 02 2024 21:11 Poopi wrote:On May 02 2024 20:29 BisuDagger wrote:On April 30 2024 07:27 Poopi wrote:On April 30 2024 06:28 WombaT wrote:On April 30 2024 06:09 Poopi wrote:On April 30 2024 04:55 Balnazza wrote:On April 30 2024 02:21 Poopi wrote:
Maru is Starcraft 2. People will remember StarCraft 2 with Maru as the legend.
If you ask the majority of people who at some point in time have been fans of SC2, most of them probably can't even remember who Maru is. HuK and Naniwa would probably get more "that is SC2"-answers than Maru. If we only focus on the remaining people who are still interested in SC2, there is a split between Serral, Maru and Rogue, though from feeling I would say the quantities go Serral > Maru > Rogue. So no, Maru isn't Starcraft 2. And people will remember him as "A legend", not "THE legend". If you want to see how it looks when someone is "The Legend" of a game, look at TheViper in AoE2. Even now, when he is clearly not the best player in the world anymore, he is still considered to be the biggest legend, just from his legacy, his skill, the way he innovated the game, his dominance, but also the impact he had on the community. Compared to that, Maru is just an extremly boring player who is good. Sure, very good, extremly good, but that's it. His most exciting storyline is "can't win a World Championship to save his life"...what a legend... Maru's storyline with WC is the same as Messi storyline in football though. Guess who is the soccer goat? Not Messi? I mean he’d get my vote but it’s a rather highly disputed one. Maru’s got a great claim, but he’s not Flash. A significant proportion of the community don’t consider him the dude Flash is not Maru either, not anywhere near as talented (semi joking, it’s close but Maru really is out of this world). Since he got caught in the crypto scandal, his legacy will probably be ternished a bit and a player like Rain who has been incredibly good in both StarCraft and different eras will probably have a better claim at GOAT than Flash. It's like you didn't spend the last 15 years watching Brood War or Flash. It's not really worth the energy to arguing your opinion, but I will just say I disagree wholeheartedly. Only thing I will add, is that in SC2 there's a legitimate discussion as to who is #1. In Brood War, it doesn't come close. It's Flash by miles and then a fight for who is #2. So if you put Maru far above Flash, then it feels like the argument is less about the players and more about your opinion as to the difficulty of each game. My point is not that Maru is a better candidate for GOAT at SC2 than Flash is for BW. Flash is the obvious BW GOAT. My point is that Maru is a more talented gamer than Flash, as in his natural ability is imho out of this world. BW and SC2 have different skillsets, Flash would probably be a better protoss in sc2 than terran, so I guess he should have switched race. But once again, "talent" is a difficult thing to gauge, it's a matter of feeling. And after watching various esports since around 2004, with "gods" level talents such as the OGRES / Final Boss in Halo, the five gods in Super Smash Bros Melee and the recent scene, the various eras of League of Legends, Overwatch, a bit of Counter-Strike, etc. I have never seen someone as "alien" like talent wise as Maru. Sure, he didn't live up to this potential. But it is pretty difficult to live up to such a potential when there are other monsters around, and that you know your potential is incredible. Imho, and I emphasize this, it's merely an opinion, Maru failing to live up to the expectations placed on him are akin to William James Sidis failing to meet up the expectations of his IQ. Flash, more dominant in his chosen game. So good at that game that he managed to get a 3rd place playing random. At his second game he was still a very solid pro, with a good Proleague record, some decent Starleague placements. Also was putting in results at the same/younger age than Maru. Maru’s very good at the obvious, flashy aspects of the game. Flash is the complete RTS package. Maru is probably closer to being a deluxe Clem than SC2’s Flash. Not meant as a diss at any of these phenomenal players, but it’s way more obvious to us mortals that what Maru can do mechanically is on another level, and he’s not massively lacking in other aspects of the game. Flash both has mechanics for days but also probably the keenest StarCraft brain going. Hey it’s subjective opinion and talent is notoriously hard to gauge, I think Flash edges it myself but that’s just me. I agree with your take here. Maru is still the greatest SC2 player, but I don't think he even remotely compares to Flash and Flash's dominance in BW. When taking into account all of the competitive e-sports over the years, Flash may very well be one of the best competitive gamers of all time, given his unrivaled mastery of one of the most difficult games to have ever existed. Perhaps there are other gamers out there who can compete at such a high level at their game of choice, for just as long as Flash has at Brood War, but I can't imagine there are too many who have the kind of longevity and record that Flash has.
I was thinking about that today. If you would make a Top 10 "Greatest Esports Players of All Time", Flash would most defintly be on that list - the placement of course depending on the exact criteria. But I'm not sure if I would put Serral on that list...and I definetly wouldn't put Maru on it. In fact, the only other player I would put on that list from the top of my head in any case is Faker - and maybe Moon?
If I had to name a RTS-player who is more or atleast equally as dominant as Flash, the only one coming to mind is TheViper, who dominated AoE2 for like eight years or something like that? But of course there is a huge discrepancy in scale between prime BroodWar and Age of Empires 2, so you definetly should take that comparison with a lot of humbleness.
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