On April 30 2024 02:21 Poopi wrote: Maru is Starcraft 2. People will remember StarCraft 2 with Maru as the legend.
If you ask the majority of people who at some point in time have been fans of SC2, most of them probably can't even remember who Maru is. HuK and Naniwa would probably get more "that is SC2"-answers than Maru. If we only focus on the remaining people who are still interested in SC2, there is a split between Serral, Maru and Rogue, though from feeling I would say the quantities go Serral > Maru > Rogue.
So no, Maru isn't Starcraft 2. And people will remember him as "A legend", not "THE legend". If you want to see how it looks when someone is "The Legend" of a game, look at TheViper in AoE2. Even now, when he is clearly not the best player in the world anymore, he is still considered to be the biggest legend, just from his legacy, his skill, the way he innovated the game, his dominance, but also the impact he had on the community. Compared to that, Maru is just an extremly boring player who is good. Sure, very good, extremly good, but that's it. His most exciting storyline is "can't win a World Championship to save his life"...what a legend...
Maru's storyline with WC is the same as Messi storyline in football though. Guess who is the soccer goat?
Not Messi? I mean he’d get my vote but it’s a rather highly disputed one.
Maru’s got a great claim, but he’s not Flash. A significant proportion of the community don’t consider him the dude
Flash is not Maru either, not anywhere near as talented (semi joking, it’s close but Maru really is out of this world). Since he got caught in the crypto scandal, his legacy will probably be ternished a bit and a player like Rain who has been incredibly good in both StarCraft and different eras will probably have a better claim at GOAT than Flash.
It's like you didn't spend the last 15 years watching Brood War or Flash. It's not really worth the energy to arguing your opinion, but I will just say I disagree wholeheartedly.
Only thing I will add, is that in SC2 there's a legitimate discussion as to who is #1. In Brood War, it doesn't come close. It's Flash by miles and then a fight for who is #2. So if you put Maru far above Flash, then it feels like the argument is less about the players and more about your opinion as to the difficulty of each game.
My point is not that Maru is a better candidate for GOAT at SC2 than Flash is for BW. Flash is the obvious BW GOAT.
My point is that Maru is a more talented gamer than Flash, as in his natural ability is imho out of this world. BW and SC2 have different skillsets, Flash would probably be a better protoss in sc2 than terran, so I guess he should have switched race.
But once again, "talent" is a difficult thing to gauge, it's a matter of feeling. And after watching various esports since around 2004, with "gods" level talents such as the OGRES / Final Boss in Halo, the five gods in Super Smash Bros Melee and the recent scene, the various eras of League of Legends, Overwatch, a bit of Counter-Strike, etc. I have never seen someone as "alien" like talent wise as Maru.
Sure, he didn't live up to this potential. But it is pretty difficult to live up to such a potential when there are other monsters around, and that you know your potential is incredible.
Imho, and I emphasize this, it's merely an opinion, Maru failing to live up to the expectations placed on him are akin to William James Sidis failing to meet up the expectations of his IQ.
Flash, more dominant in his chosen game. So good at that game that he managed to get a 3rd place playing random. At his second game he was still a very solid pro, with a good Proleague record, some decent Starleague placements. Also was putting in results at the same/younger age than Maru.
Maru’s very good at the obvious, flashy aspects of the game. Flash is the complete RTS package. Maru is probably closer to being a deluxe Clem than SC2’s Flash.
Not meant as a diss at any of these phenomenal players, but it’s way more obvious to us mortals that what Maru can do mechanically is on another level, and he’s not massively lacking in other aspects of the game. Flash both has mechanics for days but also probably the keenest StarCraft brain going.
Hey it’s subjective opinion and talent is notoriously hard to gauge, I think Flash edges it myself but that’s just me.
I agree with your take here. Maru is still the greatest SC2 player, but I don't think he even remotely compares to Flash and Flash's dominance in BW.
When taking into account all of the competitive e-sports over the years, Flash may very well be one of the best competitive gamers of all time, given his unrivaled mastery of one of the most difficult games to have ever existed. Perhaps there are other gamers out there who can compete at such a high level at their game of choice, for just as long as Flash has at Brood War, but I can't imagine there are too many who have the kind of longevity and record that Flash has.
I was thinking about that today. If you would make a Top 10 "Greatest Esports Players of All Time", Flash would most defintly be on that list - the placement of course depending on the exact criteria. But I'm not sure if I would put Serral on that list...and I definetly wouldn't put Maru on it. In fact, the only other player I would put on that list from the top of my head in any case is Faker - and maybe Moon? If I had to name a RTS-player who is more or atleast equally as dominant as Flash, the only one coming to mind is TheViper, who dominated AoE2 for like eight years or something like that? But of course there is a huge discrepancy in scale between prime BroodWar and Age of Empires 2, so you definetly should take that comparison with a lot of humbleness.
Fatal1ty had success in a bunch of games if memory serves. Perhaps in an era before eSports really matured but worth a mention I feel.
Daigo Umehara is pretty legendary!
I think for like a greatest eSports players you almost have to somewhat transcend your chosen game a bit. Like other nerds may not follow your scene, but many will have heard of you nonetheless.
I dunno what my rough weighing and criteria would be as to factors, but I think you need a bit of:
1. Dominate a popular game with a very deep and cutthroat scene. 2. If your game is a bit more niche, dominate it for a very long period, or be massively ahead of the competition. 3. Bonus points/compensatory for a lack of 1/2, rise to the top of multiple games over a long period. 4. Ultimate bonus points, dominate games across multiple genres.
I can’t think of too many who hit point 4 actually! And by not too many I mean none.
You’d probably have a fair few speedrunners too, if we extended it to greatest gamers rather than just eSports
On April 30 2024 02:21 Poopi wrote: Maru is Starcraft 2. People will remember StarCraft 2 with Maru as the legend.
If you ask the majority of people who at some point in time have been fans of SC2, most of them probably can't even remember who Maru is. HuK and Naniwa would probably get more "that is SC2"-answers than Maru. If we only focus on the remaining people who are still interested in SC2, there is a split between Serral, Maru and Rogue, though from feeling I would say the quantities go Serral > Maru > Rogue.
So no, Maru isn't Starcraft 2. And people will remember him as "A legend", not "THE legend". If you want to see how it looks when someone is "The Legend" of a game, look at TheViper in AoE2. Even now, when he is clearly not the best player in the world anymore, he is still considered to be the biggest legend, just from his legacy, his skill, the way he innovated the game, his dominance, but also the impact he had on the community. Compared to that, Maru is just an extremly boring player who is good. Sure, very good, extremly good, but that's it. His most exciting storyline is "can't win a World Championship to save his life"...what a legend...
Maru's storyline with WC is the same as Messi storyline in football though. Guess who is the soccer goat?
Not Messi? I mean he’d get my vote but it’s a rather highly disputed one.
Maru’s got a great claim, but he’s not Flash. A significant proportion of the community don’t consider him the dude
Flash is not Maru either, not anywhere near as talented (semi joking, it’s close but Maru really is out of this world). Since he got caught in the crypto scandal, his legacy will probably be ternished a bit and a player like Rain who has been incredibly good in both StarCraft and different eras will probably have a better claim at GOAT than Flash.
It's like you didn't spend the last 15 years watching Brood War or Flash. It's not really worth the energy to arguing your opinion, but I will just say I disagree wholeheartedly.
Only thing I will add, is that in SC2 there's a legitimate discussion as to who is #1. In Brood War, it doesn't come close. It's Flash by miles and then a fight for who is #2. So if you put Maru far above Flash, then it feels like the argument is less about the players and more about your opinion as to the difficulty of each game.
My point is not that Maru is a better candidate for GOAT at SC2 than Flash is for BW. Flash is the obvious BW GOAT.
My point is that Maru is a more talented gamer than Flash, as in his natural ability is imho out of this world. BW and SC2 have different skillsets, Flash would probably be a better protoss in sc2 than terran, so I guess he should have switched race.
But once again, "talent" is a difficult thing to gauge, it's a matter of feeling. And after watching various esports since around 2004, with "gods" level talents such as the OGRES / Final Boss in Halo, the five gods in Super Smash Bros Melee and the recent scene, the various eras of League of Legends, Overwatch, a bit of Counter-Strike, etc. I have never seen someone as "alien" like talent wise as Maru.
Sure, he didn't live up to this potential. But it is pretty difficult to live up to such a potential when there are other monsters around, and that you know your potential is incredible.
Imho, and I emphasize this, it's merely an opinion, Maru failing to live up to the expectations placed on him are akin to William James Sidis failing to meet up the expectations of his IQ.
Flash, more dominant in his chosen game. So good at that game that he managed to get a 3rd place playing random. At his second game he was still a very solid pro, with a good Proleague record, some decent Starleague placements. Also was putting in results at the same/younger age than Maru.
Maru’s very good at the obvious, flashy aspects of the game. Flash is the complete RTS package. Maru is probably closer to being a deluxe Clem than SC2’s Flash.
Not meant as a diss at any of these phenomenal players, but it’s way more obvious to us mortals that what Maru can do mechanically is on another level, and he’s not massively lacking in other aspects of the game. Flash both has mechanics for days but also probably the keenest StarCraft brain going.
Hey it’s subjective opinion and talent is notoriously hard to gauge, I think Flash edges it myself but that’s just me.
I agree with your take here. Maru is still the greatest SC2 player, but I don't think he even remotely compares to Flash and Flash's dominance in BW.
When taking into account all of the competitive e-sports over the years, Flash may very well be one of the best competitive gamers of all time, given his unrivaled mastery of one of the most difficult games to have ever existed. Perhaps there are other gamers out there who can compete at such a high level at their game of choice, for just as long as Flash has at Brood War, but I can't imagine there are too many who have the kind of longevity and record that Flash has.
I was thinking about that today. If you would make a Top 10 "Greatest Esports Players of All Time", Flash would most defintly be on that list - the placement of course depending on the exact criteria. But I'm not sure if I would put Serral on that list...and I definetly wouldn't put Maru on it. In fact, the only other player I would put on that list from the top of my head in any case is Faker - and maybe Moon? If I had to name a RTS-player who is more or atleast equally as dominant as Flash, the only one coming to mind is TheViper, who dominated AoE2 for like eight years or something like that? But of course there is a huge discrepancy in scale between prime BroodWar and Age of Empires 2, so you definetly should take that comparison with a lot of humbleness.
If you ask the majority of people who at some point in time have been fans of SC2, most of them probably can't even remember who Maru is. HuK and Naniwa would probably get more "that is SC2"-answers than Maru. If we only focus on the remaining people who are still interested in SC2, there is a split between Serral, Maru and Rogue, though from feeling I would say the quantities go Serral > Maru > Rogue.
So no, Maru isn't Starcraft 2. And people will remember him as "A legend", not "THE legend". If you want to see how it looks when someone is "The Legend" of a game, look at TheViper in AoE2. Even now, when he is clearly not the best player in the world anymore, he is still considered to be the biggest legend, just from his legacy, his skill, the way he innovated the game, his dominance, but also the impact he had on the community. Compared to that, Maru is just an extremly boring player who is good. Sure, very good, extremly good, but that's it. His most exciting storyline is "can't win a World Championship to save his life"...what a legend...
Maru's storyline with WC is the same as Messi storyline in football though. Guess who is the soccer goat?
Not Messi? I mean he’d get my vote but it’s a rather highly disputed one.
Maru’s got a great claim, but he’s not Flash. A significant proportion of the community don’t consider him the dude
Flash is not Maru either, not anywhere near as talented (semi joking, it’s close but Maru really is out of this world). Since he got caught in the crypto scandal, his legacy will probably be ternished a bit and a player like Rain who has been incredibly good in both StarCraft and different eras will probably have a better claim at GOAT than Flash.
It's like you didn't spend the last 15 years watching Brood War or Flash. It's not really worth the energy to arguing your opinion, but I will just say I disagree wholeheartedly.
Only thing I will add, is that in SC2 there's a legitimate discussion as to who is #1. In Brood War, it doesn't come close. It's Flash by miles and then a fight for who is #2. So if you put Maru far above Flash, then it feels like the argument is less about the players and more about your opinion as to the difficulty of each game.
My point is not that Maru is a better candidate for GOAT at SC2 than Flash is for BW. Flash is the obvious BW GOAT.
My point is that Maru is a more talented gamer than Flash, as in his natural ability is imho out of this world. BW and SC2 have different skillsets, Flash would probably be a better protoss in sc2 than terran, so I guess he should have switched race.
But once again, "talent" is a difficult thing to gauge, it's a matter of feeling. And after watching various esports since around 2004, with "gods" level talents such as the OGRES / Final Boss in Halo, the five gods in Super Smash Bros Melee and the recent scene, the various eras of League of Legends, Overwatch, a bit of Counter-Strike, etc. I have never seen someone as "alien" like talent wise as Maru.
Sure, he didn't live up to this potential. But it is pretty difficult to live up to such a potential when there are other monsters around, and that you know your potential is incredible.
Imho, and I emphasize this, it's merely an opinion, Maru failing to live up to the expectations placed on him are akin to William James Sidis failing to meet up the expectations of his IQ.
Flash, more dominant in his chosen game. So good at that game that he managed to get a 3rd place playing random. At his second game he was still a very solid pro, with a good Proleague record, some decent Starleague placements. Also was putting in results at the same/younger age than Maru.
Maru’s very good at the obvious, flashy aspects of the game. Flash is the complete RTS package. Maru is probably closer to being a deluxe Clem than SC2’s Flash.
Not meant as a diss at any of these phenomenal players, but it’s way more obvious to us mortals that what Maru can do mechanically is on another level, and he’s not massively lacking in other aspects of the game. Flash both has mechanics for days but also probably the keenest StarCraft brain going.
Hey it’s subjective opinion and talent is notoriously hard to gauge, I think Flash edges it myself but that’s just me.
I agree with your take here. Maru is still the greatest SC2 player, but I don't think he even remotely compares to Flash and Flash's dominance in BW.
When taking into account all of the competitive e-sports over the years, Flash may very well be one of the best competitive gamers of all time, given his unrivaled mastery of one of the most difficult games to have ever existed. Perhaps there are other gamers out there who can compete at such a high level at their game of choice, for just as long as Flash has at Brood War, but I can't imagine there are too many who have the kind of longevity and record that Flash has.
I was thinking about that today. If you would make a Top 10 "Greatest Esports Players of All Time", Flash would most defintly be on that list - the placement of course depending on the exact criteria. But I'm not sure if I would put Serral on that list...and I definetly wouldn't put Maru on it. In fact, the only other player I would put on that list from the top of my head in any case is Faker - and maybe Moon? If I had to name a RTS-player who is more or atleast equally as dominant as Flash, the only one coming to mind is TheViper, who dominated AoE2 for like eight years or something like that? But of course there is a huge discrepancy in scale between prime BroodWar and Age of Empires 2, so you definetly should take that comparison with a lot of humbleness.
Fatal1ty had success in a bunch of games if memory serves. Perhaps in an era before eSports really matured but worth a mention I feel.
Daigo Umehara is pretty legendary!
I think for like a greatest eSports players you almost have to somewhat transcend your chosen game a bit. Like other nerds may not follow your scene, but many will have heard of you nonetheless.
I dunno what my rough weighing and criteria would be as to factors, but I think you need a bit of:
1. Dominate a popular game with a very deep and cutthroat scene. 2. If your game is a bit more niche, dominate it for a very long period, or be massively ahead of the competition. 3. Bonus points/compensatory for a lack of 1/2, rise to the top of multiple games over a long period. 4. Ultimate bonus points, dominate games across multiple genres.
I can’t think of too many who hit point 4 actually! And by not too many I mean none.
You’d probably have a fair few speedrunners too, if we extended it to greatest gamers rather than just eSports
I can actually give you two examples for the fourth one: The Moreno-Brothers They were really good in Warcraft 3, they were Top-Foreigners in Wings of Liberty, they dominated the early Heroes of the Storm scene, they are still both in the Top ~8 of AoE IV and apparently they both crushed the ladder in Stormgate aswell?
I haven't followed enough of the general e-sports scene to have any idea who ought to be in a top ten list with Flash.
You can see how subjective this list alone is by the fact that not a single SC2-pro is on it (okay, technically Flash, Jaedong, Grubby, Moon and BoxeR are all SC2-pros, but we know this isn't why they are on that list). Cool to see Grubby so high btw. Probably besides Moon the 2nd WC3 player I would put on my Top 10 - but if I made that list, I would probably forget a bunch of DotA2-players, so who knows.
If you ask the majority of people who at some point in time have been fans of SC2, most of them probably can't even remember who Maru is. HuK and Naniwa would probably get more "that is SC2"-answers than Maru. If we only focus on the remaining people who are still interested in SC2, there is a split between Serral, Maru and Rogue, though from feeling I would say the quantities go Serral > Maru > Rogue.
So no, Maru isn't Starcraft 2. And people will remember him as "A legend", not "THE legend". If you want to see how it looks when someone is "The Legend" of a game, look at TheViper in AoE2. Even now, when he is clearly not the best player in the world anymore, he is still considered to be the biggest legend, just from his legacy, his skill, the way he innovated the game, his dominance, but also the impact he had on the community. Compared to that, Maru is just an extremly boring player who is good. Sure, very good, extremly good, but that's it. His most exciting storyline is "can't win a World Championship to save his life"...what a legend...
Maru's storyline with WC is the same as Messi storyline in football though. Guess who is the soccer goat?
Not Messi? I mean he’d get my vote but it’s a rather highly disputed one.
Maru’s got a great claim, but he’s not Flash. A significant proportion of the community don’t consider him the dude
Flash is not Maru either, not anywhere near as talented (semi joking, it’s close but Maru really is out of this world). Since he got caught in the crypto scandal, his legacy will probably be ternished a bit and a player like Rain who has been incredibly good in both StarCraft and different eras will probably have a better claim at GOAT than Flash.
It's like you didn't spend the last 15 years watching Brood War or Flash. It's not really worth the energy to arguing your opinion, but I will just say I disagree wholeheartedly.
Only thing I will add, is that in SC2 there's a legitimate discussion as to who is #1. In Brood War, it doesn't come close. It's Flash by miles and then a fight for who is #2. So if you put Maru far above Flash, then it feels like the argument is less about the players and more about your opinion as to the difficulty of each game.
My point is not that Maru is a better candidate for GOAT at SC2 than Flash is for BW. Flash is the obvious BW GOAT.
My point is that Maru is a more talented gamer than Flash, as in his natural ability is imho out of this world. BW and SC2 have different skillsets, Flash would probably be a better protoss in sc2 than terran, so I guess he should have switched race.
But once again, "talent" is a difficult thing to gauge, it's a matter of feeling. And after watching various esports since around 2004, with "gods" level talents such as the OGRES / Final Boss in Halo, the five gods in Super Smash Bros Melee and the recent scene, the various eras of League of Legends, Overwatch, a bit of Counter-Strike, etc. I have never seen someone as "alien" like talent wise as Maru.
Sure, he didn't live up to this potential. But it is pretty difficult to live up to such a potential when there are other monsters around, and that you know your potential is incredible.
Imho, and I emphasize this, it's merely an opinion, Maru failing to live up to the expectations placed on him are akin to William James Sidis failing to meet up the expectations of his IQ.
Flash, more dominant in his chosen game. So good at that game that he managed to get a 3rd place playing random. At his second game he was still a very solid pro, with a good Proleague record, some decent Starleague placements. Also was putting in results at the same/younger age than Maru.
Maru’s very good at the obvious, flashy aspects of the game. Flash is the complete RTS package. Maru is probably closer to being a deluxe Clem than SC2’s Flash.
Not meant as a diss at any of these phenomenal players, but it’s way more obvious to us mortals that what Maru can do mechanically is on another level, and he’s not massively lacking in other aspects of the game. Flash both has mechanics for days but also probably the keenest StarCraft brain going.
Hey it’s subjective opinion and talent is notoriously hard to gauge, I think Flash edges it myself but that’s just me.
I agree with your take here. Maru is still the greatest SC2 player, but I don't think he even remotely compares to Flash and Flash's dominance in BW.
When taking into account all of the competitive e-sports over the years, Flash may very well be one of the best competitive gamers of all time, given his unrivaled mastery of one of the most difficult games to have ever existed. Perhaps there are other gamers out there who can compete at such a high level at their game of choice, for just as long as Flash has at Brood War, but I can't imagine there are too many who have the kind of longevity and record that Flash has.
I was thinking about that today. If you would make a Top 10 "Greatest Esports Players of All Time", Flash would most defintly be on that list - the placement of course depending on the exact criteria. But I'm not sure if I would put Serral on that list...and I definetly wouldn't put Maru on it. In fact, the only other player I would put on that list from the top of my head in any case is Faker - and maybe Moon? If I had to name a RTS-player who is more or atleast equally as dominant as Flash, the only one coming to mind is TheViper, who dominated AoE2 for like eight years or something like that? But of course there is a huge discrepancy in scale between prime BroodWar and Age of Empires 2, so you definetly should take that comparison with a lot of humbleness.
I haven't followed enough of the general e-sports scene to have any idea who ought to be in a top ten list with Flash.
Faker is probably above Flash because LoL has been the most competitive esport across the world this past decade I guess? His comeback Worlds win while being "old" probably sets him above Flash. BW might be one of the most difficult games skill wise, but the scene is only "KR" compared to LoL having also Europe, NA and China investing millions of dollars in their ecosystem to try and take down the KR powerhouses.
Still, Flash and Faker should be in the list. Other games would be difficult to judge though? It becomes too subjective at some point
On April 30 2024 06:09 Poopi wrote: [quote] Maru's storyline with WC is the same as Messi storyline in football though. Guess who is the soccer goat?
Not Messi? I mean he’d get my vote but it’s a rather highly disputed one.
Maru’s got a great claim, but he’s not Flash. A significant proportion of the community don’t consider him the dude
Flash is not Maru either, not anywhere near as talented (semi joking, it’s close but Maru really is out of this world). Since he got caught in the crypto scandal, his legacy will probably be ternished a bit and a player like Rain who has been incredibly good in both StarCraft and different eras will probably have a better claim at GOAT than Flash.
It's like you didn't spend the last 15 years watching Brood War or Flash. It's not really worth the energy to arguing your opinion, but I will just say I disagree wholeheartedly.
Only thing I will add, is that in SC2 there's a legitimate discussion as to who is #1. In Brood War, it doesn't come close. It's Flash by miles and then a fight for who is #2. So if you put Maru far above Flash, then it feels like the argument is less about the players and more about your opinion as to the difficulty of each game.
My point is not that Maru is a better candidate for GOAT at SC2 than Flash is for BW. Flash is the obvious BW GOAT.
My point is that Maru is a more talented gamer than Flash, as in his natural ability is imho out of this world. BW and SC2 have different skillsets, Flash would probably be a better protoss in sc2 than terran, so I guess he should have switched race.
But once again, "talent" is a difficult thing to gauge, it's a matter of feeling. And after watching various esports since around 2004, with "gods" level talents such as the OGRES / Final Boss in Halo, the five gods in Super Smash Bros Melee and the recent scene, the various eras of League of Legends, Overwatch, a bit of Counter-Strike, etc. I have never seen someone as "alien" like talent wise as Maru.
Sure, he didn't live up to this potential. But it is pretty difficult to live up to such a potential when there are other monsters around, and that you know your potential is incredible.
Imho, and I emphasize this, it's merely an opinion, Maru failing to live up to the expectations placed on him are akin to William James Sidis failing to meet up the expectations of his IQ.
Flash, more dominant in his chosen game. So good at that game that he managed to get a 3rd place playing random. At his second game he was still a very solid pro, with a good Proleague record, some decent Starleague placements. Also was putting in results at the same/younger age than Maru.
Maru’s very good at the obvious, flashy aspects of the game. Flash is the complete RTS package. Maru is probably closer to being a deluxe Clem than SC2’s Flash.
Not meant as a diss at any of these phenomenal players, but it’s way more obvious to us mortals that what Maru can do mechanically is on another level, and he’s not massively lacking in other aspects of the game. Flash both has mechanics for days but also probably the keenest StarCraft brain going.
Hey it’s subjective opinion and talent is notoriously hard to gauge, I think Flash edges it myself but that’s just me.
I agree with your take here. Maru is still the greatest SC2 player, but I don't think he even remotely compares to Flash and Flash's dominance in BW.
When taking into account all of the competitive e-sports over the years, Flash may very well be one of the best competitive gamers of all time, given his unrivaled mastery of one of the most difficult games to have ever existed. Perhaps there are other gamers out there who can compete at such a high level at their game of choice, for just as long as Flash has at Brood War, but I can't imagine there are too many who have the kind of longevity and record that Flash has.
I was thinking about that today. If you would make a Top 10 "Greatest Esports Players of All Time", Flash would most defintly be on that list - the placement of course depending on the exact criteria. But I'm not sure if I would put Serral on that list...and I definetly wouldn't put Maru on it. In fact, the only other player I would put on that list from the top of my head in any case is Faker - and maybe Moon? If I had to name a RTS-player who is more or atleast equally as dominant as Flash, the only one coming to mind is TheViper, who dominated AoE2 for like eight years or something like that? But of course there is a huge discrepancy in scale between prime BroodWar and Age of Empires 2, so you definetly should take that comparison with a lot of humbleness.
I haven't followed enough of the general e-sports scene to have any idea who ought to be in a top ten list with Flash.
Faker is probably above Flash because LoL has been the most competitive esport across the world this past decade I guess? His comeback Worlds win while being "old" probably sets him above Flash. BW might be one of the most difficult games skill wise, but the scene is only "KR" compared to LoL having also Europe, NA and China investing millions of dollars in their ecosystem to try and take down the KR powerhouses.
Still, Flash and Faker should be in the list. Other games would be difficult to judge though? It becomes too subjective at some point
Imagine thinking NA is even remotely relevant in LoL And even the non korean teams almost always have 1-2 korean players
On April 30 2024 02:21 Poopi wrote: Maru is Starcraft 2. People will remember StarCraft 2 with Maru as the legend.
If you ask the majority of people who at some point in time have been fans of SC2, most of them probably can't even remember who Maru is. HuK and Naniwa would probably get more "that is SC2"-answers than Maru. If we only focus on the remaining people who are still interested in SC2, there is a split between Serral, Maru and Rogue, though from feeling I would say the quantities go Serral > Maru > Rogue.
So no, Maru isn't Starcraft 2. And people will remember him as "A legend", not "THE legend". If you want to see how it looks when someone is "The Legend" of a game, look at TheViper in AoE2. Even now, when he is clearly not the best player in the world anymore, he is still considered to be the biggest legend, just from his legacy, his skill, the way he innovated the game, his dominance, but also the impact he had on the community. Compared to that, Maru is just an extremly boring player who is good. Sure, very good, extremly good, but that's it. His most exciting storyline is "can't win a World Championship to save his life"...what a legend...
Maru's storyline with WC is the same as Messi storyline in football though. Guess who is the soccer goat?
Not Messi? I mean he’d get my vote but it’s a rather highly disputed one.
Maru’s got a great claim, but he’s not Flash. A significant proportion of the community don’t consider him the dude
Flash is not Maru either, not anywhere near as talented (semi joking, it’s close but Maru really is out of this world). Since he got caught in the crypto scandal, his legacy will probably be ternished a bit and a player like Rain who has been incredibly good in both StarCraft and different eras will probably have a better claim at GOAT than Flash.
It's like you didn't spend the last 15 years watching Brood War or Flash. It's not really worth the energy to arguing your opinion, but I will just say I disagree wholeheartedly.
Only thing I will add, is that in SC2 there's a legitimate discussion as to who is #1. In Brood War, it doesn't come close. It's Flash by miles and then a fight for who is #2. So if you put Maru far above Flash, then it feels like the argument is less about the players and more about your opinion as to the difficulty of each game.
My point is not that Maru is a better candidate for GOAT at SC2 than Flash is for BW. Flash is the obvious BW GOAT.
My point is that Maru is a more talented gamer than Flash, as in his natural ability is imho out of this world. BW and SC2 have different skillsets, Flash would probably be a better protoss in sc2 than terran, so I guess he should have switched race.
But once again, "talent" is a difficult thing to gauge, it's a matter of feeling. And after watching various esports since around 2004, with "gods" level talents such as the OGRES / Final Boss in Halo, the five gods in Super Smash Bros Melee and the recent scene, the various eras of League of Legends, Overwatch, a bit of Counter-Strike, etc. I have never seen someone as "alien" like talent wise as Maru.
Sure, he didn't live up to this potential. But it is pretty difficult to live up to such a potential when there are other monsters around, and that you know your potential is incredible.
Imho, and I emphasize this, it's merely an opinion, Maru failing to live up to the expectations placed on him are akin to William James Sidis failing to meet up the expectations of his IQ.
Flash, more dominant in his chosen game. So good at that game that he managed to get a 3rd place playing random. At his second game he was still a very solid pro, with a good Proleague record, some decent Starleague placements. Also was putting in results at the same/younger age than Maru.
Maru’s very good at the obvious, flashy aspects of the game. Flash is the complete RTS package. Maru is probably closer to being a deluxe Clem than SC2’s Flash.
Not meant as a diss at any of these phenomenal players, but it’s way more obvious to us mortals that what Maru can do mechanically is on another level, and he’s not massively lacking in other aspects of the game. Flash both has mechanics for days but also probably the keenest StarCraft brain going.
Hey it’s subjective opinion and talent is notoriously hard to gauge, I think Flash edges it myself but that’s just me.
I think it's the fact that Flash is so good outside mechanics that he never gets credit for macro or micro like other players who are good at just that "one thing". Very rarely has anyone actually ever out micro-ed Flash.
Yeah if we were playing StarCraft Top Trumps and splitting up versions skills there’s a lot of 10s and 9s there.
Hell I love Bisu, in all likelihood not as much as you but he’s my favourite BW pro. What’s even he, such a phenomenal player better than Flash at?
Early Movements and Setup: - The battle opens with both players strategically positioning their forces. Flash, known for his meticulous playstyle, deploys his Siege Tanks in a defensive formation. These tanks are interspersed with Vultures, which lay Spider Mines to create a protective barrier against direct assaults. The Marines are scattered, offering quick response capabilities and ranged support.
Protoss Response: - Bisu, leveraging the mobility of Protoss Dragoons, maneuvers around the map’s terrain. The Dragoons, heavy ranged units, are positioned to challenge the Terran defenses. Their goal is to exploit the Tanks' immobility, using their superior range to poke and prod at Flash’s setup.
Engagement Dynamics: - As the confrontation escalates, we see the first major engagements. Bisu initiates attacks, directing his Dragoons to focus fire on isolated Tanks. The Dragoons advance cautiously, trying to avoid the fields of Spider Mines. Meanwhile, Flash reacts by repositioning his Tanks into siege mode, where they can unleash devastating area damage.
Terran Counter-Moves: - With precise control, Flash commands his Marines to support the Tanks, targeting advancing Dragoons and warding off the Protoss. The Vultures dart in and out, redeploying Mines to adjust to the shifting lines of battle. This reactive play is crucial to holding off Bisu's aggressive maneuvers.
Protoss Adjustments and Micro: - Bisu, not deterred by the initial resistance, begins micro-managing his Dragoons with increased intensity. He executes hit-and-run tactics: firing at the Terran units and retreating before the Tanks can lock on their targets effectively. The goal is to whittle down the Terran forces while minimizing losses.
Climactic Clashes: - The tension peaks as both players engage in a micro-intensive battle. Every move and counter-move has significant implications. Bisu attempts a decisive push, leveraging a temporary advantage in numbers as he catches some of Flash's Tanks off-guard during repositioning.
Outcome and Strategic Repercussions: - As the dust settles from the skirmishes, the effectiveness of Bisu's micro against Flash’s strategic placement becomes apparent. Each lost unit for Flash means a weakening of his defensive line, potentially opening up opportunities for Bisu to exploit. Conversely, Flash's ability to inflict maximum damage while losing minimal units could lead to a stronger mid-game position, bolstering his chances for a counter-attack or economic expansion.
This battle is a classic showcase of strategy, precision, and quick decision-making that defines high-level StarCraft play. Each player's actions reflect their broader game plans, with Flash focusing on territorial control and Bisu aiming to disrupt and dismantle these defenses through superior unit management.
On April 30 2024 06:09 Poopi wrote: [quote] Maru's storyline with WC is the same as Messi storyline in football though. Guess who is the soccer goat?
Not Messi? I mean he’d get my vote but it’s a rather highly disputed one.
Maru’s got a great claim, but he’s not Flash. A significant proportion of the community don’t consider him the dude
Flash is not Maru either, not anywhere near as talented (semi joking, it’s close but Maru really is out of this world). Since he got caught in the crypto scandal, his legacy will probably be ternished a bit and a player like Rain who has been incredibly good in both StarCraft and different eras will probably have a better claim at GOAT than Flash.
It's like you didn't spend the last 15 years watching Brood War or Flash. It's not really worth the energy to arguing your opinion, but I will just say I disagree wholeheartedly.
Only thing I will add, is that in SC2 there's a legitimate discussion as to who is #1. In Brood War, it doesn't come close. It's Flash by miles and then a fight for who is #2. So if you put Maru far above Flash, then it feels like the argument is less about the players and more about your opinion as to the difficulty of each game.
My point is not that Maru is a better candidate for GOAT at SC2 than Flash is for BW. Flash is the obvious BW GOAT.
My point is that Maru is a more talented gamer than Flash, as in his natural ability is imho out of this world. BW and SC2 have different skillsets, Flash would probably be a better protoss in sc2 than terran, so I guess he should have switched race.
But once again, "talent" is a difficult thing to gauge, it's a matter of feeling. And after watching various esports since around 2004, with "gods" level talents such as the OGRES / Final Boss in Halo, the five gods in Super Smash Bros Melee and the recent scene, the various eras of League of Legends, Overwatch, a bit of Counter-Strike, etc. I have never seen someone as "alien" like talent wise as Maru.
Sure, he didn't live up to this potential. But it is pretty difficult to live up to such a potential when there are other monsters around, and that you know your potential is incredible.
Imho, and I emphasize this, it's merely an opinion, Maru failing to live up to the expectations placed on him are akin to William James Sidis failing to meet up the expectations of his IQ.
Flash, more dominant in his chosen game. So good at that game that he managed to get a 3rd place playing random. At his second game he was still a very solid pro, with a good Proleague record, some decent Starleague placements. Also was putting in results at the same/younger age than Maru.
Maru’s very good at the obvious, flashy aspects of the game. Flash is the complete RTS package. Maru is probably closer to being a deluxe Clem than SC2’s Flash.
Not meant as a diss at any of these phenomenal players, but it’s way more obvious to us mortals that what Maru can do mechanically is on another level, and he’s not massively lacking in other aspects of the game. Flash both has mechanics for days but also probably the keenest StarCraft brain going.
Hey it’s subjective opinion and talent is notoriously hard to gauge, I think Flash edges it myself but that’s just me.
I agree with your take here. Maru is still the greatest SC2 player, but I don't think he even remotely compares to Flash and Flash's dominance in BW.
When taking into account all of the competitive e-sports over the years, Flash may very well be one of the best competitive gamers of all time, given his unrivaled mastery of one of the most difficult games to have ever existed. Perhaps there are other gamers out there who can compete at such a high level at their game of choice, for just as long as Flash has at Brood War, but I can't imagine there are too many who have the kind of longevity and record that Flash has.
I was thinking about that today. If you would make a Top 10 "Greatest Esports Players of All Time", Flash would most defintly be on that list - the placement of course depending on the exact criteria. But I'm not sure if I would put Serral on that list...and I definetly wouldn't put Maru on it. In fact, the only other player I would put on that list from the top of my head in any case is Faker - and maybe Moon? If I had to name a RTS-player who is more or atleast equally as dominant as Flash, the only one coming to mind is TheViper, who dominated AoE2 for like eight years or something like that? But of course there is a huge discrepancy in scale between prime BroodWar and Age of Empires 2, so you definetly should take that comparison with a lot of humbleness.
Fatal1ty had success in a bunch of games if memory serves. Perhaps in an era before eSports really matured but worth a mention I feel.
Daigo Umehara is pretty legendary!
I think for like a greatest eSports players you almost have to somewhat transcend your chosen game a bit. Like other nerds may not follow your scene, but many will have heard of you nonetheless.
I dunno what my rough weighing and criteria would be as to factors, but I think you need a bit of:
1. Dominate a popular game with a very deep and cutthroat scene. 2. If your game is a bit more niche, dominate it for a very long period, or be massively ahead of the competition. 3. Bonus points/compensatory for a lack of 1/2, rise to the top of multiple games over a long period. 4. Ultimate bonus points, dominate games across multiple genres.
I can’t think of too many who hit point 4 actually! And by not too many I mean none.
You’d probably have a fair few speedrunners too, if we extended it to greatest gamers rather than just eSports
I can actually give you two examples for the fourth one: The Moreno-Brothers They were really good in Warcraft 3, they were Top-Foreigners in Wings of Liberty, they dominated the early Heroes of the Storm scene, they are still both in the Top ~8 of AoE IV and apparently they both crushed the ladder in Stormgate aswell?
I haven't followed enough of the general e-sports scene to have any idea who ought to be in a top ten list with Flash.
You can see how subjective this list alone is by the fact that not a single SC2-pro is on it (okay, technically Flash, Jaedong, Grubby, Moon and BoxeR are all SC2-pros, but we know this isn't why they are on that list). Cool to see Grubby so high btw. Probably besides Moon the 2nd WC3 player I would put on my Top 10 - but if I made that list, I would probably forget a bunch of DotA2-players, so who knows.
I feel I’d stick them in a sorta sub-category of ‘most naturally talented’ or something. Good shout though!
They get really good at all sorts, but never really to the ‘great’ level when it counts. Like they can get to a relative level of where Harstem is in SC2 in any game they seriously pick up with relative ease, but not much beyond that into true greatness. This isn’t a diss Harstem is an excellent StarCraft 2 player btw.
I’m still mystified as to Lucifron actually getting worse as a full-time SC2 player than while studying, I really thought he’d step up a level.
They also seem better at new games, which I don’t hold against them indeed I feel it’s something that’s very underrated in the RTS scene.
Almost without fail one or both of them figures something out that’s pretty impactful in the games they play, perhaps in a world of more closed information they’d be able to make their strategic brains count for a little more.
Maru may be the #1 GOAT, but Serral is the Flash of SC2 in terms of "the best I could do is 3-2 him" sheer intimidation, whereas Maru doesn't project that aura, at least in global international tournaments.
On May 03 2024 01:49 argonautdice wrote: Maru may be the #1 GOAT, but Serral is the Flash of SC2 in terms of "the best I could do is 3-2 him" sheer intimidation, whereas Maru doesn't project that aura, at least in global international tournaments.
He’s probably the closest just in terms of being that complete package and having no real weaknesses. But his relative strengths aren’t quite at Flash’s level.
I wonder who Maru’s best BW analogue is, got all the skills and occasionally can make your jaw drop like no other, but prone to maybe the odd frustrating misstep.
Adding my usual caveat that the frequency of Maru’s missteps are still a lot less than a hell of a lot of the field, but this is judging by GOAT standards
On May 03 2024 01:49 argonautdice wrote: Maru may be the #1 GOAT, but Serral is the Flash of SC2 in terms of "the best I could do is 3-2 him" sheer intimidation, whereas Maru doesn't project that aura, at least in global international tournaments.
The whole GSL prize pool is 14k, which is what a very low viewership BW streamer with 50 viewers earns in 3 months through donations alone.
This is the 'competition' that fears Serral now.
I find it funny how much delulu this community has about the level of competition post team houses/proleague 2016, and how much hyperboles are thrown around.
The question is: If team houses would have still existed, would Serral even take 1 game from some random korean at WCS? Probably not. Serral belongs in the same category as the best random foreigners in BSL nobody really cares about. He is as GOAT as Dewalt, who would get 0-100 by Soulkey
On May 03 2024 01:49 argonautdice wrote: Maru may be the #1 GOAT, but Serral is the Flash of SC2 in terms of "the best I could do is 3-2 him" sheer intimidation, whereas Maru doesn't project that aura, at least in global international tournaments.
He’s probably the closest just in terms of being that complete package and having no real weaknesses. But his relative strengths aren’t quite at Flash’s level.
I wonder who Maru’s best BW analogue is, got all the skills and occasionally can make your jaw drop like no other, but prone to maybe the odd frustrating misstep.
Adding my usual caveat that the frequency of Maru’s missteps are still a lot less than a hell of a lot of the field, but this is judging by GOAT standards
Serral dominates because there is no competition. Is it either because he is good or the rest simply moved on from this dead end of a game, where 90 percent is funded by Saudi money, which is still below what top 5 streamers in BW get.
On April 30 2024 06:28 WombaT wrote: [quote] Not Messi? I mean he’d get my vote but it’s a rather highly disputed one.
Maru’s got a great claim, but he’s not Flash. A significant proportion of the community don’t consider him the dude
Flash is not Maru either, not anywhere near as talented (semi joking, it’s close but Maru really is out of this world). Since he got caught in the crypto scandal, his legacy will probably be ternished a bit and a player like Rain who has been incredibly good in both StarCraft and different eras will probably have a better claim at GOAT than Flash.
It's like you didn't spend the last 15 years watching Brood War or Flash. It's not really worth the energy to arguing your opinion, but I will just say I disagree wholeheartedly.
Only thing I will add, is that in SC2 there's a legitimate discussion as to who is #1. In Brood War, it doesn't come close. It's Flash by miles and then a fight for who is #2. So if you put Maru far above Flash, then it feels like the argument is less about the players and more about your opinion as to the difficulty of each game.
My point is not that Maru is a better candidate for GOAT at SC2 than Flash is for BW. Flash is the obvious BW GOAT.
My point is that Maru is a more talented gamer than Flash, as in his natural ability is imho out of this world. BW and SC2 have different skillsets, Flash would probably be a better protoss in sc2 than terran, so I guess he should have switched race.
But once again, "talent" is a difficult thing to gauge, it's a matter of feeling. And after watching various esports since around 2004, with "gods" level talents such as the OGRES / Final Boss in Halo, the five gods in Super Smash Bros Melee and the recent scene, the various eras of League of Legends, Overwatch, a bit of Counter-Strike, etc. I have never seen someone as "alien" like talent wise as Maru.
Sure, he didn't live up to this potential. But it is pretty difficult to live up to such a potential when there are other monsters around, and that you know your potential is incredible.
Imho, and I emphasize this, it's merely an opinion, Maru failing to live up to the expectations placed on him are akin to William James Sidis failing to meet up the expectations of his IQ.
Flash, more dominant in his chosen game. So good at that game that he managed to get a 3rd place playing random. At his second game he was still a very solid pro, with a good Proleague record, some decent Starleague placements. Also was putting in results at the same/younger age than Maru.
Maru’s very good at the obvious, flashy aspects of the game. Flash is the complete RTS package. Maru is probably closer to being a deluxe Clem than SC2’s Flash.
Not meant as a diss at any of these phenomenal players, but it’s way more obvious to us mortals that what Maru can do mechanically is on another level, and he’s not massively lacking in other aspects of the game. Flash both has mechanics for days but also probably the keenest StarCraft brain going.
Hey it’s subjective opinion and talent is notoriously hard to gauge, I think Flash edges it myself but that’s just me.
I agree with your take here. Maru is still the greatest SC2 player, but I don't think he even remotely compares to Flash and Flash's dominance in BW.
When taking into account all of the competitive e-sports over the years, Flash may very well be one of the best competitive gamers of all time, given his unrivaled mastery of one of the most difficult games to have ever existed. Perhaps there are other gamers out there who can compete at such a high level at their game of choice, for just as long as Flash has at Brood War, but I can't imagine there are too many who have the kind of longevity and record that Flash has.
I was thinking about that today. If you would make a Top 10 "Greatest Esports Players of All Time", Flash would most defintly be on that list - the placement of course depending on the exact criteria. But I'm not sure if I would put Serral on that list...and I definetly wouldn't put Maru on it. In fact, the only other player I would put on that list from the top of my head in any case is Faker - and maybe Moon? If I had to name a RTS-player who is more or atleast equally as dominant as Flash, the only one coming to mind is TheViper, who dominated AoE2 for like eight years or something like that? But of course there is a huge discrepancy in scale between prime BroodWar and Age of Empires 2, so you definetly should take that comparison with a lot of humbleness.
I haven't followed enough of the general e-sports scene to have any idea who ought to be in a top ten list with Flash.
Faker is probably above Flash because LoL has been the most competitive esport across the world this past decade I guess? His comeback Worlds win while being "old" probably sets him above Flash. BW might be one of the most difficult games skill wise, but the scene is only "KR" compared to LoL having also Europe, NA and China investing millions of dollars in their ecosystem to try and take down the KR powerhouses.
Still, Flash and Faker should be in the list. Other games would be difficult to judge though? It becomes too subjective at some point
Imagine thinking NA is even remotely relevant in LoL And even the non korean teams almost always have 1-2 korean players
I know that NA are "bad" at LoL, but they still influence the whole ecosystem. KR is still overall superior in LoL, but CN aggressively buying KR players to boost their own scene and managing to win World Titles (while EU was able to reach finals multiple times) pushed the scene to a whole new level of competitiveness.
Funnily enough, the first time I heard this theory of "the GOAT of esport is the GOAT of the most popular esport title imo, so it should be Faker" was at an Underdogs Ogaming party. It was Lilbow (yeah, the infamous Lilbow who prepared for Starcraft 3 before leaving for Overwatch ) who said it, and I can see where he is coming from, albeit I am also of the opinion that the intrinsic difficulty of a game should be considered (ergo why BW and Flash is also a good candidate)
The whole GSL prize pool is 14k, which is what a very low viewership BW streamer with 50 viewers earns in 3 months through donations alone.
This is the 'competition' that fears Serral now.
I find it funny how much delulu this community has about the level of competition post team houses/proleague 2016, and how much hyperboles are thrown around.
The question is: If team houses would have still existed, would Serral even take 1 game from some random korean at WCS? Probably not. Serral belongs in the same category as the best random foreigners in BSL nobody really cares about. He is as GOAT as Dewalt, who would get 0-100 by Soulkey
I mean, if you want to troll, you should probably up your game In terms of pure skill, if we say that the best players peaked at 100 in the various categories of skills that are useful in Starcraft 2, Serral would have an average of like 97-98. Sure, Clem and Reynor might be a tiny bit faster, ByuN might be a little bit more resilient, Maru might defend a little bit better, Rogue might be more creative, Dark might be a little bit better at certain caster interactions, herO or MaxPax might have better micro in certain aspects, etc. But overall, Serral kind of evolved into the ultimate perfect Starcraft 2 player and it's almost a "fact" at this point
On May 03 2024 01:49 argonautdice wrote: Maru may be the #1 GOAT, but Serral is the Flash of SC2 in terms of "the best I could do is 3-2 him" sheer intimidation, whereas Maru doesn't project that aura, at least in global international tournaments.
The whole GSL prize pool is 14k, which is what a very low viewership BW streamer with 50 viewers earns in 3 months through donations alone.
This is the 'competition' that fears Serral now.
I find it funny how much delulu this community has about the level of competition post team houses/proleague 2016, and how much hyperboles are thrown around.
The question is: If team houses would have still existed, would Serral even take 1 game from some random korean at WCS? Probably not. Serral belongs in the same category as the best random foreigners in BSL nobody really cares about. He is as GOAT as Dewalt, who would get 0-100 by Soulkey
On May 03 2024 01:49 argonautdice wrote: Maru may be the #1 GOAT, but Serral is the Flash of SC2 in terms of "the best I could do is 3-2 him" sheer intimidation, whereas Maru doesn't project that aura, at least in global international tournaments.
He’s probably the closest just in terms of being that complete package and having no real weaknesses. But his relative strengths aren’t quite at Flash’s level.
I wonder who Maru’s best BW analogue is, got all the skills and occasionally can make your jaw drop like no other, but prone to maybe the odd frustrating misstep.
Adding my usual caveat that the frequency of Maru’s missteps are still a lot less than a hell of a lot of the field, but this is judging by GOAT standards
Serral dominates because there is no competition. Is it either because he is good or the rest simply moved on from this dead end of a game, where 90 percent is funded by Saudi money, which is still below what top 5 streamers in BW get.
Makes you wonder why not one single Proleague-Topplayer just swoops in and takes the EWC money. Shouldn't take the likes of Rain and co. not more than a weeks practice to beat todays noobs.
On May 03 2024 01:49 argonautdice wrote: Maru may be the #1 GOAT, but Serral is the Flash of SC2 in terms of "the best I could do is 3-2 him" sheer intimidation, whereas Maru doesn't project that aura, at least in global international tournaments.
The whole GSL prize pool is 14k, which is what a very low viewership BW streamer with 50 viewers earns in 3 months through donations alone.
This is the 'competition' that fears Serral now.
I find it funny how much delulu this community has about the level of competition post team houses/proleague 2016, and how much hyperboles are thrown around.
The question is: If team houses would have still existed, would Serral even take 1 game from some random korean at WCS? Probably not. Serral belongs in the same category as the best random foreigners in BSL nobody really cares about. He is as GOAT as Dewalt, who would get 0-100 by Soulkey
On May 03 2024 01:58 WombaT wrote:
On May 03 2024 01:49 argonautdice wrote: Maru may be the #1 GOAT, but Serral is the Flash of SC2 in terms of "the best I could do is 3-2 him" sheer intimidation, whereas Maru doesn't project that aura, at least in global international tournaments.
He’s probably the closest just in terms of being that complete package and having no real weaknesses. But his relative strengths aren’t quite at Flash’s level.
I wonder who Maru’s best BW analogue is, got all the skills and occasionally can make your jaw drop like no other, but prone to maybe the odd frustrating misstep.
Adding my usual caveat that the frequency of Maru’s missteps are still a lot less than a hell of a lot of the field, but this is judging by GOAT standards
Serral dominates because there is no competition. Is it either because he is good or the rest simply moved on from this dead end of a game, where 90 percent is funded by Saudi money, which is still below what top 5 streamers in BW get.
Makes you wonder why not one single Proleague-Topplayer just swoops in and takes the EWC money. Shouldn't take the likes of Rain and co. not more than a weeks practice to beat todays noobs.
Rain might be the one player not to sarcastically mention. His raw talent is amazing.
On May 03 2024 01:49 argonautdice wrote: Maru may be the #1 GOAT, but Serral is the Flash of SC2 in terms of "the best I could do is 3-2 him" sheer intimidation, whereas Maru doesn't project that aura, at least in global international tournaments.
He’s probably the closest just in terms of being that complete package and having no real weaknesses. But his relative strengths aren’t quite at Flash’s level.
I wonder who Maru’s best BW analogue is, got all the skills and occasionally can make your jaw drop like no other, but prone to maybe the odd frustrating misstep.
Adding my usual caveat that the frequency of Maru’s missteps are still a lot less than a hell of a lot of the field, but this is judging by GOAT standards
I'm probably missing something but I have a hard time believing that serral is the closest to sc1 Flash. Serral's analog is probably one of the sc1 dragoons, emphasis on the s since there were multiple doing well.
Flash wasn't just dominant in one specific format, he was dominant in proleague as well. That reminds me of maru, not serral.
Flash was winning or that top for over a decade (when he initially played and then when he came back). That reminds me of maru, not serral.
Flash was dominant regardless of how his terran peers were doing. That again reminds me of maru, not serral. I can't remember a single time in serral's career where he single handedly carried his race. I really hope this doesn't get misinterpreted as balance whine, but carrying your race has to matter.
On May 03 2024 01:49 argonautdice wrote: Maru may be the #1 GOAT, but Serral is the Flash of SC2 in terms of "the best I could do is 3-2 him" sheer intimidation, whereas Maru doesn't project that aura, at least in global international tournaments.
That's such a weird, subjective, and arbitrary way to try to connect Serral to Flash's greatness. They're simply not comparable. No one in SC2 parallels Flash.
On May 03 2024 01:49 argonautdice wrote: Maru may be the #1 GOAT, but Serral is the Flash of SC2 in terms of "the best I could do is 3-2 him" sheer intimidation, whereas Maru doesn't project that aura, at least in global international tournaments.
He’s probably the closest just in terms of being that complete package and having no real weaknesses. But his relative strengths aren’t quite at Flash’s level.
I wonder who Maru’s best BW analogue is, got all the skills and occasionally can make your jaw drop like no other, but prone to maybe the odd frustrating misstep.
Adding my usual caveat that the frequency of Maru’s missteps are still a lot less than a hell of a lot of the field, but this is judging by GOAT standards
I'm probably missing something but I have a hard time believing that serral is the closest to sc1 Flash. Serral's analog is probably one of the sc1 dragoons, emphasis on the s since there were multiple doing well.
Flash wasn't just dominant in one specific format, he was dominant in proleague as well. That reminds me of maru, not serral.
Flash was winning or that top for over a decade (when he initially played and then when he came back). That reminds me of maru, not serral.
Flash was dominant regardless of how his terran peers were doing. That again reminds me of maru, not serral. I can't remember a single time in serral's career where he single handedly carried his race. I really hope this doesn't get misinterpreted as balance whine, but carrying your race has to matter.
So Maru is 19-39 in games and 4-14 in series against Serral. Which of the sc1 dragoons did Flash have a 33% win rate against in over 50 games?
If you ask the majority of people who at some point in time have been fans of SC2, most of them probably can't even remember who Maru is. HuK and Naniwa would probably get more "that is SC2"-answers than Maru. If we only focus on the remaining people who are still interested in SC2, there is a split between Serral, Maru and Rogue, though from feeling I would say the quantities go Serral > Maru > Rogue.
So no, Maru isn't Starcraft 2. And people will remember him as "A legend", not "THE legend". If you want to see how it looks when someone is "The Legend" of a game, look at TheViper in AoE2. Even now, when he is clearly not the best player in the world anymore, he is still considered to be the biggest legend, just from his legacy, his skill, the way he innovated the game, his dominance, but also the impact he had on the community. Compared to that, Maru is just an extremly boring player who is good. Sure, very good, extremly good, but that's it. His most exciting storyline is "can't win a World Championship to save his life"...what a legend...
Maru's storyline with WC is the same as Messi storyline in football though. Guess who is the soccer goat?
Not Messi? I mean he’d get my vote but it’s a rather highly disputed one.
Maru’s got a great claim, but he’s not Flash. A significant proportion of the community don’t consider him the dude
Flash is not Maru either, not anywhere near as talented (semi joking, it’s close but Maru really is out of this world). Since he got caught in the crypto scandal, his legacy will probably be ternished a bit and a player like Rain who has been incredibly good in both StarCraft and different eras will probably have a better claim at GOAT than Flash.
It's like you didn't spend the last 15 years watching Brood War or Flash. It's not really worth the energy to arguing your opinion, but I will just say I disagree wholeheartedly.
Only thing I will add, is that in SC2 there's a legitimate discussion as to who is #1. In Brood War, it doesn't come close. It's Flash by miles and then a fight for who is #2. So if you put Maru far above Flash, then it feels like the argument is less about the players and more about your opinion as to the difficulty of each game.
My point is not that Maru is a better candidate for GOAT at SC2 than Flash is for BW. Flash is the obvious BW GOAT.
My point is that Maru is a more talented gamer than Flash, as in his natural ability is imho out of this world. BW and SC2 have different skillsets, Flash would probably be a better protoss in sc2 than terran, so I guess he should have switched race.
But once again, "talent" is a difficult thing to gauge, it's a matter of feeling. And after watching various esports since around 2004, with "gods" level talents such as the OGRES / Final Boss in Halo, the five gods in Super Smash Bros Melee and the recent scene, the various eras of League of Legends, Overwatch, a bit of Counter-Strike, etc. I have never seen someone as "alien" like talent wise as Maru.
Sure, he didn't live up to this potential. But it is pretty difficult to live up to such a potential when there are other monsters around, and that you know your potential is incredible.
Imho, and I emphasize this, it's merely an opinion, Maru failing to live up to the expectations placed on him are akin to William James Sidis failing to meet up the expectations of his IQ.
Flash, more dominant in his chosen game. So good at that game that he managed to get a 3rd place playing random. At his second game he was still a very solid pro, with a good Proleague record, some decent Starleague placements. Also was putting in results at the same/younger age than Maru.
Maru’s very good at the obvious, flashy aspects of the game. Flash is the complete RTS package. Maru is probably closer to being a deluxe Clem than SC2’s Flash.
Not meant as a diss at any of these phenomenal players, but it’s way more obvious to us mortals that what Maru can do mechanically is on another level, and he’s not massively lacking in other aspects of the game. Flash both has mechanics for days but also probably the keenest StarCraft brain going.
Hey it’s subjective opinion and talent is notoriously hard to gauge, I think Flash edges it myself but that’s just me.
I think it's the fact that Flash is so good outside mechanics that he never gets credit for macro or micro like other players who are good at just that "one thing". Very rarely has anyone actually ever out micro-ed Flash.
Yeah if we were playing StarCraft Top Trumps and splitting up versions skills there’s a lot of 10s and 9s there.
Hell I love Bisu, in all likelihood not as much as you but he’s my favourite BW pro. What’s even he, such a phenomenal player better than Flash at?
Early Movements and Setup: - The battle opens with both players strategically positioning their forces. Flash, known for his meticulous playstyle, deploys his Siege Tanks in a defensive formation. These tanks are interspersed with Vultures, which lay Spider Mines to create a protective barrier against direct assaults. The Marines are scattered, offering quick response capabilities and ranged support.
Protoss Response: - Bisu, leveraging the mobility of Protoss Dragoons, maneuvers around the map’s terrain. The Dragoons, heavy ranged units, are positioned to challenge the Terran defenses. Their goal is to exploit the Tanks' immobility, using their superior range to poke and prod at Flash’s setup.
Engagement Dynamics: - As the confrontation escalates, we see the first major engagements. Bisu initiates attacks, directing his Dragoons to focus fire on isolated Tanks. The Dragoons advance cautiously, trying to avoid the fields of Spider Mines. Meanwhile, Flash reacts by repositioning his Tanks into siege mode, where they can unleash devastating area damage.
Terran Counter-Moves: - With precise control, Flash commands his Marines to support the Tanks, targeting advancing Dragoons and warding off the Protoss. The Vultures dart in and out, redeploying Mines to adjust to the shifting lines of battle. This reactive play is crucial to holding off Bisu's aggressive maneuvers.
Protoss Adjustments and Micro: - Bisu, not deterred by the initial resistance, begins micro-managing his Dragoons with increased intensity. He executes hit-and-run tactics: firing at the Terran units and retreating before the Tanks can lock on their targets effectively. The goal is to whittle down the Terran forces while minimizing losses.
Climactic Clashes: - The tension peaks as both players engage in a micro-intensive battle. Every move and counter-move has significant implications. Bisu attempts a decisive push, leveraging a temporary advantage in numbers as he catches some of Flash's Tanks off-guard during repositioning.
Outcome and Strategic Repercussions: - As the dust settles from the skirmishes, the effectiveness of Bisu's micro against Flash’s strategic placement becomes apparent. Each lost unit for Flash means a weakening of his defensive line, potentially opening up opportunities for Bisu to exploit. Conversely, Flash's ability to inflict maximum damage while losing minimal units could lead to a stronger mid-game position, bolstering his chances for a counter-attack or economic expansion.
This battle is a classic showcase of strategy, precision, and quick decision-making that defines high-level StarCraft play. Each player's actions reflect their broader game plans, with Flash focusing on territorial control and Bisu aiming to disrupt and dismantle these defenses through superior unit management.
God, I love peak Brood War so much. So many details in these battles, it was just spectacular.
On April 30 2024 06:09 Poopi wrote: [quote] Maru's storyline with WC is the same as Messi storyline in football though. Guess who is the soccer goat?
Not Messi? I mean he’d get my vote but it’s a rather highly disputed one.
Maru’s got a great claim, but he’s not Flash. A significant proportion of the community don’t consider him the dude
Flash is not Maru either, not anywhere near as talented (semi joking, it’s close but Maru really is out of this world). Since he got caught in the crypto scandal, his legacy will probably be ternished a bit and a player like Rain who has been incredibly good in both StarCraft and different eras will probably have a better claim at GOAT than Flash.
It's like you didn't spend the last 15 years watching Brood War or Flash. It's not really worth the energy to arguing your opinion, but I will just say I disagree wholeheartedly.
Only thing I will add, is that in SC2 there's a legitimate discussion as to who is #1. In Brood War, it doesn't come close. It's Flash by miles and then a fight for who is #2. So if you put Maru far above Flash, then it feels like the argument is less about the players and more about your opinion as to the difficulty of each game.
My point is not that Maru is a better candidate for GOAT at SC2 than Flash is for BW. Flash is the obvious BW GOAT.
My point is that Maru is a more talented gamer than Flash, as in his natural ability is imho out of this world. BW and SC2 have different skillsets, Flash would probably be a better protoss in sc2 than terran, so I guess he should have switched race.
But once again, "talent" is a difficult thing to gauge, it's a matter of feeling. And after watching various esports since around 2004, with "gods" level talents such as the OGRES / Final Boss in Halo, the five gods in Super Smash Bros Melee and the recent scene, the various eras of League of Legends, Overwatch, a bit of Counter-Strike, etc. I have never seen someone as "alien" like talent wise as Maru.
Sure, he didn't live up to this potential. But it is pretty difficult to live up to such a potential when there are other monsters around, and that you know your potential is incredible.
Imho, and I emphasize this, it's merely an opinion, Maru failing to live up to the expectations placed on him are akin to William James Sidis failing to meet up the expectations of his IQ.
Flash, more dominant in his chosen game. So good at that game that he managed to get a 3rd place playing random. At his second game he was still a very solid pro, with a good Proleague record, some decent Starleague placements. Also was putting in results at the same/younger age than Maru.
Maru’s very good at the obvious, flashy aspects of the game. Flash is the complete RTS package. Maru is probably closer to being a deluxe Clem than SC2’s Flash.
Not meant as a diss at any of these phenomenal players, but it’s way more obvious to us mortals that what Maru can do mechanically is on another level, and he’s not massively lacking in other aspects of the game. Flash both has mechanics for days but also probably the keenest StarCraft brain going.
Hey it’s subjective opinion and talent is notoriously hard to gauge, I think Flash edges it myself but that’s just me.
I think it's the fact that Flash is so good outside mechanics that he never gets credit for macro or micro like other players who are good at just that "one thing". Very rarely has anyone actually ever out micro-ed Flash.
Yeah if we were playing StarCraft Top Trumps and splitting up versions skills there’s a lot of 10s and 9s there.
Hell I love Bisu, in all likelihood not as much as you but he’s my favourite BW pro. What’s even he, such a phenomenal player better than Flash at?
Early Movements and Setup: - The battle opens with both players strategically positioning their forces. Flash, known for his meticulous playstyle, deploys his Siege Tanks in a defensive formation. These tanks are interspersed with Vultures, which lay Spider Mines to create a protective barrier against direct assaults. The Marines are scattered, offering quick response capabilities and ranged support.
Protoss Response: - Bisu, leveraging the mobility of Protoss Dragoons, maneuvers around the map’s terrain. The Dragoons, heavy ranged units, are positioned to challenge the Terran defenses. Their goal is to exploit the Tanks' immobility, using their superior range to poke and prod at Flash’s setup.
Engagement Dynamics: - As the confrontation escalates, we see the first major engagements. Bisu initiates attacks, directing his Dragoons to focus fire on isolated Tanks. The Dragoons advance cautiously, trying to avoid the fields of Spider Mines. Meanwhile, Flash reacts by repositioning his Tanks into siege mode, where they can unleash devastating area damage.
Terran Counter-Moves: - With precise control, Flash commands his Marines to support the Tanks, targeting advancing Dragoons and warding off the Protoss. The Vultures dart in and out, redeploying Mines to adjust to the shifting lines of battle. This reactive play is crucial to holding off Bisu's aggressive maneuvers.
Protoss Adjustments and Micro: - Bisu, not deterred by the initial resistance, begins micro-managing his Dragoons with increased intensity. He executes hit-and-run tactics: firing at the Terran units and retreating before the Tanks can lock on their targets effectively. The goal is to whittle down the Terran forces while minimizing losses.
Climactic Clashes: - The tension peaks as both players engage in a micro-intensive battle. Every move and counter-move has significant implications. Bisu attempts a decisive push, leveraging a temporary advantage in numbers as he catches some of Flash's Tanks off-guard during repositioning.
Outcome and Strategic Repercussions: - As the dust settles from the skirmishes, the effectiveness of Bisu's micro against Flash’s strategic placement becomes apparent. Each lost unit for Flash means a weakening of his defensive line, potentially opening up opportunities for Bisu to exploit. Conversely, Flash's ability to inflict maximum damage while losing minimal units could lead to a stronger mid-game position, bolstering his chances for a counter-attack or economic expansion.
This battle is a classic showcase of strategy, precision, and quick decision-making that defines high-level StarCraft play. Each player's actions reflect their broader game plans, with Flash focusing on territorial control and Bisu aiming to disrupt and dismantle these defenses through superior unit management.
God, I love peak Brood War so much. So many details in these battles, it was just spectacular.
On May 03 2024 01:49 argonautdice wrote: Maru may be the #1 GOAT, but Serral is the Flash of SC2 in terms of "the best I could do is 3-2 him" sheer intimidation, whereas Maru doesn't project that aura, at least in global international tournaments.
He’s probably the closest just in terms of being that complete package and having no real weaknesses. But his relative strengths aren’t quite at Flash’s level.
I wonder who Maru’s best BW analogue is, got all the skills and occasionally can make your jaw drop like no other, but prone to maybe the odd frustrating misstep.
Adding my usual caveat that the frequency of Maru’s missteps are still a lot less than a hell of a lot of the field, but this is judging by GOAT standards
I'm probably missing something but I have a hard time believing that serral is the closest to sc1 Flash. Serral's analog is probably one of the sc1 dragoons, emphasis on the s since there were multiple doing well.
Flash wasn't just dominant in one specific format, he was dominant in proleague as well. That reminds me of maru, not serral.
Flash was winning or that top for over a decade (when he initially played and then when he came back). That reminds me of maru, not serral.
Flash was dominant regardless of how his terran peers were doing. That again reminds me of maru, not serral. I can't remember a single time in serral's career where he single handedly carried his race. I really hope this doesn't get misinterpreted as balance whine, but carrying your race has to matter.
So Maru is 19-39 in games and 4-14 in series against Serral. Which of the sc1 dragoons did Flash have a 33% win rate against in over 50 games?
Effort has a winning a record against Flash. So serral is not one of the dragoons, he's Effort. Got it
On May 03 2024 01:49 argonautdice wrote: Maru may be the #1 GOAT, but Serral is the Flash of SC2 in terms of "the best I could do is 3-2 him" sheer intimidation, whereas Maru doesn't project that aura, at least in global international tournaments.
He’s probably the closest just in terms of being that complete package and having no real weaknesses. But his relative strengths aren’t quite at Flash’s level.
I wonder who Maru’s best BW analogue is, got all the skills and occasionally can make your jaw drop like no other, but prone to maybe the odd frustrating misstep.
Adding my usual caveat that the frequency of Maru’s missteps are still a lot less than a hell of a lot of the field, but this is judging by GOAT standards
I'm probably missing something but I have a hard time believing that serral is the closest to sc1 Flash. Serral's analog is probably one of the sc1 dragoons, emphasis on the s since there were multiple doing well.
Flash wasn't just dominant in one specific format, he was dominant in proleague as well. That reminds me of maru, not serral.
Flash was winning or that top for over a decade (when he initially played and then when he came back). That reminds me of maru, not serral.
Flash was dominant regardless of how his terran peers were doing. That again reminds me of maru, not serral. I can't remember a single time in serral's career where he single handedly carried his race. I really hope this doesn't get misinterpreted as balance whine, but carrying your race has to matter.
EPT
