On May 02 2024 21:11 Poopi wrote: My point is that Maru is a more talented gamer than Flash, as in his natural ability is imho out of this world. BW and SC2 have different skillsets, Flash would probably be a better protoss in sc2 than terran, so I guess he should have switched race.
No. Flash is the clear #1 in his game and was really good at another. Maru is neither and I'd argue Maru is not even the most talented Sc2 player...
On May 02 2024 21:11 Poopi wrote: My point is that Maru is a more talented gamer than Flash, as in his natural ability is imho out of this world. BW and SC2 have different skillsets, Flash would probably be a better protoss in sc2 than terran, so I guess he should have switched race.
No. Flash is the clear #1 in his game and was really good at another. Maru is neither and I'd argue Maru is not even the most talented Sc2 player...
Who do you think would be the most talented sc2 player then? I am curious to hear this My take on this would be, in no particular order: INno, Serral, Maru, Zest, sOs and Rogue (post kespa switch) It's a difficult thing to gauge as said multiple times so thinking Serral, Reynor, Clem or any other KR player is the most talented sc2 player is a reasonable take imho. Seeing your signature I guess you think it's Serral, which is a pretty popular take and imo very reasonable
As for Flash, I am pretty sure Maru would be good as well in BW, Flash had a disappointing sc2 career compared to his BW pedigree so that's not a fair comparison to make imo.
On May 02 2024 21:11 Poopi wrote: My point is that Maru is a more talented gamer than Flash, as in his natural ability is imho out of this world. BW and SC2 have different skillsets, Flash would probably be a better protoss in sc2 than terran, so I guess he should have switched race.
No. Flash is the clear #1 in his game and was really good at another. Maru is neither and I'd argue Maru is not even the most talented Sc2 player...
Who do you think would be the most talented sc2 player then? I am curious to hear this My take on this would be, in no particular order: INno, Serral, Maru, Zest, sOs and Rogue (post kespa switch) It's a difficult thing to gauge as said multiple times so thinking Serral, Reynor, Clem or any other KR player is the most talented sc2 player is a reasonable take imho. Seeing your signature I guess you think it's Serral, which is a pretty popular take and imo very reasonable
As for Flash, I am pretty sure Maru would be good as well in BW, Flash had a disappointing sc2 career compared to his BW pedigree so that's not a fair comparison to make imo.
While I get what you mean, I don't think anyone can be "more talented" after the Kespa-switch than before. Either you are talented or you are not. You can get better, hard work can carry you to the heighest heights, but that doesn't equal talent. My pick would also be Serral, mostly because of the fact that he closed the gap to people that have trained in the harshed enviroment there was in SC2 - and he apparently did that without excessive grinding? I think a year before I would have said Reynor, though apparently he is much more of a grinder than I though. In the end, you are ofc correct and talent can't be gauged. There is a good chance you are right and it is Maru. Though I wouldn't say he is "alien" as you said before to anyone else in the game.
As for your last point, I would speculate this: Maru could have a good career in BW aswell - but he couldn't now. Flash could have possibly become the SC2-GOAT - if he was born later and didn't play BW. Same could be said about Grubby for example: Maybe he would have destroyed the Koreans in SC2 as he did in WC3 - if he never had his WC3-career. BW and SC2 are of course closer to each other than WC3 and SC2 and some players managed to have good careers in both, but no one truely reached the highest top consistently in both, even though Jaedon and especially Fantasy/Rain became close
What I meant is that most original WoL / esF players are too far back in the past memories for me to really evaluate their talent, compared to the more recent players.
So for example MMA, Mvp, NesTea etc were talented as well but it is difficult for me to properly remember what I felt when watching them
As for Serral, he has the same problem as Happy in WC3 imo. Is Happy the goat of wc3 because he became the best player of all time after the game’s prime competitive era? Or is it MooN because he was obvious goat during the glory days of wc3?
In Halo, the OGRE twins were absolute monsters. They were invincible in 2v2, and reigned supreme in the most competitive mode of 4v4 in both Halo 1 and 2. However, OGRE1, who was perceived at the time as the absolute best, decided to stop his pro gaming career at the start of Halo 3 because he found the game too easy / not skillful enough and went to Australia to live another life.
Despite there being less money in the scene during Halo1/2/3, those were the « glory » days of competition because it was proportionally one of the biggest esports titles with MLG.
Otoh, the later Halo days with Reach, Halo 4, Halo 5 had more money because esports bubble exploded, but comparatively the aspiring pro gamers were spread out in A LOT more titles: moba, console FPS, PC fps, RTS, etc. Some players dominated in this era like Lethul, winning more money.
A GOAT list was made for Halo, OGRE2 had the #1 spot which was understandable since he kept playing and winning on several more extensions / halo games.
However, OGRE1 funnily got #11 because of huge recency bias from the panel.
For those like me who followed esports since basically its near inception, who was watching during the Halo glory days and also knew that during Halo 5 era a lot of gamer talents were playing other titles, seeing Lethul at #2 in a GOAT list and OGRE1 at #11 was ridiculous. But that’s also why these sort of lists should be taken with a grain of salt, and why the combination of good storytelling / narrative and ACCURATE facts are important.
Tl;dr: I don’t remember WoL era enough to accurately assess old gen sc2 pros talent.
On May 02 2024 21:11 Poopi wrote: My point is that Maru is a more talented gamer than Flash, as in his natural ability is imho out of this world. BW and SC2 have different skillsets, Flash would probably be a better protoss in sc2 than terran, so I guess he should have switched race.
No. Flash is the clear #1 in his game and was really good at another. Maru is neither and I'd argue Maru is not even the most talented Sc2 player...
Who do you think would be the most talented sc2 player then? I am curious to hear this My take on this would be, in no particular order: INno, Serral, Maru, Zest, sOs and Rogue (post kespa switch) It's a difficult thing to gauge as said multiple times so thinking Serral, Reynor, Clem or any other KR player is the most talented sc2 player is a reasonable take imho. Seeing your signature I guess you think it's Serral, which is a pretty popular take and imo very reasonable
As for Flash, I am pretty sure Maru would be good as well in BW, Flash had a disappointing sc2 career compared to his BW pedigree so that's not a fair comparison to make imo.
The fact that one can argue in GOOD faith about who is the most talented player in SC2 shows that Maru is not above. Personally I put Serral above Maru but I can see why one would favor Maru. In BW there is IMO no (good faith) argument to be had. It's Flash. Period. Don't know anything about Halo WC3 can be argued but I think most would vote for Moon as Goat LoL is Faker I guess?. I don't know anything about LoL but I know the name Faker. Gotta mean something. CS:GO is somewhere between Dev1ce and S1mple? S1mple as the most raw talent, Dev1ce for titles and longevity
On May 03 2024 01:49 argonautdice wrote: Maru may be the #1 GOAT, but Serral is the Flash of SC2 in terms of "the best I could do is 3-2 him" sheer intimidation, whereas Maru doesn't project that aura, at least in global international tournaments.
He’s probably the closest just in terms of being that complete package and having no real weaknesses. But his relative strengths aren’t quite at Flash’s level.
I wonder who Maru’s best BW analogue is, got all the skills and occasionally can make your jaw drop like no other, but prone to maybe the odd frustrating misstep.
Adding my usual caveat that the frequency of Maru’s missteps are still a lot less than a hell of a lot of the field, but this is judging by GOAT standards
I'm probably missing something but I have a hard time believing that serral is the closest to sc1 Flash. Serral's analog is probably one of the sc1 dragoons, emphasis on the s since there were multiple doing well.
Flash wasn't just dominant in one specific format, he was dominant in proleague as well. That reminds me of maru, not serral.
Flash was winning or that top for over a decade (when he initially played and then when he came back). That reminds me of maru, not serral.
Flash was dominant regardless of how his terran peers were doing. That again reminds me of maru, not serral. I can't remember a single time in serral's career where he single handedly carried his race. I really hope this doesn't get misinterpreted as balance whine, but carrying your race has to matter.
So Maru is 19-39 in games and 4-14 in series against Serral. Which of the sc1 dragoons did Flash have a 33% win rate against in over 50 games?
Effort has a winning a record against Flash. So serral is not one of the dragoons, he's Effort. Got it
Sorry, but Flash is 11-12 in games and 4-6 in series against Efforts according to Liquipedia, so it's close to parity and it's not even close to 33% win rate in over 50 games.
On May 02 2024 21:11 Poopi wrote: My point is that Maru is a more talented gamer than Flash, as in his natural ability is imho out of this world. BW and SC2 have different skillsets, Flash would probably be a better protoss in sc2 than terran, so I guess he should have switched race.
No. Flash is the clear #1 in his game and was really good at another. Maru is neither and I'd argue Maru is not even the most talented Sc2 player...
Who do you think would be the most talented sc2 player then? I am curious to hear this My take on this would be, in no particular order: INno, Serral, Maru, Zest, sOs and Rogue (post kespa switch) It's a difficult thing to gauge as said multiple times so thinking Serral, Reynor, Clem or any other KR player is the most talented sc2 player is a reasonable take imho. Seeing your signature I guess you think it's Serral, which is a pretty popular take and imo very reasonable
As for Flash, I am pretty sure Maru would be good as well in BW, Flash had a disappointing sc2 career compared to his BW pedigree so that's not a fair comparison to make imo.
The fact that one can argue in GOOD faith about who is the most talented player in SC2 shows that Maru is not above. Personally I put Serral above Maru but I can see why one would favor Maru. In BW there is IMO no (good faith) argument to be had. It's Flash. Period. Don't know anything about Halo WC3 can be argued but I think most would vote for Moon as Goat LoL is Faker I guess?. I don't know anything about LoL but I know the name Faker. Gotta mean something. CS:GO is somewhere between Dev1ce and S1mple? S1mple as the most raw talent, Dev1ce for titles and longevity
I don't think that's a good proof. Imo the fact that KR players destroyed the hopes and dream of the foreign scene for so long (progamers then became casters or other community figures), made this foreign scene pretty biased afterwards. No new blood came in the KR scene left in ashes post proleague, and Serral / Reynor / Clem gave hope to the foreign scene (region lock yada yada) + most casual foreign viewers don't watch GSL since it's become kinda niche for some time.
That KR bias vs EU bias + the various eras of sc2 (and the fact that there is more variance + patches in sc2 than BW) is why there is more of a debate about who is the sc2 goat.
On May 02 2024 21:11 Poopi wrote: My point is that Maru is a more talented gamer than Flash, as in his natural ability is imho out of this world. BW and SC2 have different skillsets, Flash would probably be a better protoss in sc2 than terran, so I guess he should have switched race.
No. Flash is the clear #1 in his game and was really good at another. Maru is neither and I'd argue Maru is not even the most talented Sc2 player...
Who do you think would be the most talented sc2 player then? I am curious to hear this My take on this would be, in no particular order: INno, Serral, Maru, Zest, sOs and Rogue (post kespa switch) It's a difficult thing to gauge as said multiple times so thinking Serral, Reynor, Clem or any other KR player is the most talented sc2 player is a reasonable take imho. Seeing your signature I guess you think it's Serral, which is a pretty popular take and imo very reasonable
As for Flash, I am pretty sure Maru would be good as well in BW, Flash had a disappointing sc2 career compared to his BW pedigree so that's not a fair comparison to make imo.
The fact that one can argue in GOOD faith about who is the most talented player in SC2 shows that Maru is not above. Personally I put Serral above Maru but I can see why one would favor Maru. In BW there is IMO no (good faith) argument to be had. It's Flash. Period. Don't know anything about Halo WC3 can be argued but I think most would vote for Moon as Goat LoL is Faker I guess?. I don't know anything about LoL but I know the name Faker. Gotta mean something. CS:GO is somewhere between Dev1ce and S1mple? S1mple as the most raw talent, Dev1ce for titles and longevity
I don't think that's a good proof. Imo the fact that KR players destroyed the hopes and dream of the foreign scene for so long (progamers then became casters or other community figures), made this foreign scene pretty biased afterwards. No new blood came in the KR scene left in ashes post proleague, and Serral / Reynor / Clem gave hope to the foreign scene (region lock yada yada) + most casual foreign viewers don't watch GSL since it's become kinda niche for some time.
That KR bias vs EU bias + the various eras of sc2 (and the fact that there is more variance + patches in sc2 than BW) is why there is more of a debate about who is the sc2 goat.
I mean, you could also say the same the other way around: If Serral was Korean, a lot of people would suddenly put him higher. And as I often mention: When you remove the "later stages" of SC2 or say they aren't worth as much, Maru drops aswell. Pre-2018 Maru was good, but you would never have put him on the #1 place, he was miles and miles off that.
Is Happy the goat of wc3 because he became the best player of all time after the game’s prime competitive era? Or is it MooN because he was obvious goat during the glory days of wc3?
People sometimes compare Happy and Serral, but that is just bad faith or a lack of understanding. Just to make this comparison: Last year, the biggest WC3 event in terms of prize-money was TP League S1, with an overall prizepool of roughly 22K. ESWC 2007, which was a year in which WC3 was still going strong but started to decline, had a prizepool of 19K (though knowing ESWC they probably never paid that out lol). And it wasn't even the biggest event of that year, just picked it because I remember it well. Some tournaments (like IEM) got up to over 50K - in 2007. 2007 had like 20-ish Tier 1 events listed on Liquipedia (however accurate that may be 17 years later), 2023 has three.
Compare that to SC2, where the overall money also declined over the years, but we still have massive prizepools. The winner of the current Europe Regional gets almost as much as the entire TP League offered. SC2 still provides enough money for a good chunk of fulltime progamer.
With WC3, that is not the case. The available money of tournaments is basically concentrated on a select few players, the rest isn't even semi-pro. At best they stream a lot. Happy is clearly the best player in the Reforged-era, there can't be any argument. But for me, that doesn't qualify him as a GOAT, because he was a fulltime pro in the competitive era and he wasn't even the best russian, let alone Undead. But if you made a top 10 list of the best players in the competitive era of WC3 (so basically until the release of SC2 I would say), Happy wouldn't even be an honorable mention.
Hope you can see how that is a very unfair comparison to say "Serral suffers the same problem". Serral still plays in a competitive field of fulltime pros, they play for big money still.
On May 03 2024 18:55 Ciaus237 wrote: There is only one correct answer to the most talented SC2 player: It's Life. And it isn't close.
Is he the greatest? On character - he is clearly disqualified. On accomplishment, no. But raw talent? Life was an anomaly among anomalies.
There are good reasons why we are hush hush about this, but this is the correct answer. Had Life not done what he had there is no question in my mind he'd be the GOAT, and there cannot be a legit conversation on this topic that doesn't acknowledge the context he provides to the discussion.
The field isn't super competitive though? In Europe, MaxPax is good in the small online stuff but barely makes a dent in the staked online stuff. Other than Clem and Reynor, the rest of the playerpool can't do much vs the big three. In Korea, there are still a lot more players that can be competitive, but most of them are past their prime.
The amount of money doesn't change the fact that only a select few are truly competitive in the scene, while the rest enjoy streaming / doing coaching for other pros / trying to qualify for the cool events because it's a nice experience, but they don't really hope to win the big tournaments they enter.
And yes, Happy was not as competitive in the earlier days of WC3, because he hadn't evolved into the final Happy product. That's the same for Serral, before going full time, he was super promising, but not has dominant. It's not a certainty that you become better after going full time (like it's not certain young prodigies like Life, Maru and Creator would have a career as impressive as their precocity promised).
There are too many "what if" in those sort of things though: what if Serral was KR? Maybe he would have crumbled versus the KR competition. What if Maru was European? Maybe he couldn't have thrived as well in such an environment. We only know what actually happened.
On May 03 2024 18:55 Ciaus237 wrote: There is only one correct answer to the most talented SC2 player: It's Life. And it isn't close.
Is he the greatest? On character - he is clearly disqualified. On accomplishment, no. But raw talent? Life was an anomaly among anomalies.
There are good reasons why we are hush hush about this, but this is the correct answer. Had Life not done what he had there is no question in my mind he'd be the GOAT, and there cannot be a legit conversation on this topic that doesn't acknowledge the context he provides to the discussion.
There is no doubt in your mind but the problem isn't what he did, the problem is he had a mental health problem and couldn't follow the path he might have followed.
Similarly, I see often people praising MaxPax as the best protoss in the world, because he displays great potential in minor tournaments versus Clem every week. Sure, but if he has mental health issues that prevent him for reaching to his potential in the actually important tournaments (namely, offline high stakes tournaments -> online high stakes > offline low stakes > online low stakes), it doesn't really matter.
Maru has shown his potential in basically every setting / country / format.
Additional note: the most interesting thing about these tales, players getting their wrists / shoulder / whatever destroyed, or mental health issues, basically boils down to health. Those that paved the way of esports didn't have as much knowledge / environment to allow them to compete in the safest manner possible, while the newer generation has more information available to take better care of themselves while competing. Similarly to sports where in the past athletes couldn't hope to really compete after 30, it's highly possible esport players might have longer careers.
- Happy was still fulltime for years in WC3 Prime, before switching to SC2 and then coming back to WC3 (mostly for money-reasons I believe, he was remarkable honest about that). He probably got better than he was before, but that is still no comparison to "I was a kid and not fulltime yet"-Serral. Professional AoE 2 is honestly more competitive than WC3 today and evne that is still miles off SC2. - Again, if we pretend Serrals era (which casually makes up half the games lifespan) isn't worth much, then neither is Marus. Case closed, we are all wrong, GOAT is probably Innovation. - In my opinion, Life owns his entire legacy to his stupidity. If he didn't do what he did, he would have crumbled over the years considerably and today we would remember him as that guy who was really good and then lost his edge. The only reason why people talk about him is because his journey got cut short through his own idiocracy
- Again, if we pretend Serrals era (which casually makes up half the games lifespan) isn't worth much, then neither is Marus. Case closed, we are all wrong, GOAT is probably Innovation.
Completely false, as if there would be no other opinion between the two extremes "everything after 2016 doesn't count" and "results in every year of the games lifespan should be worth the same, regardless of the level of competition".
- In my opinion, Life owns his entire legacy to his stupidity. If he didn't do what he did, he would have crumbled over the years considerably and today we would remember him as that guy who was really good and then lost his edge. The only reason why people talk about him is because his journey got cut short through his own idiocracy
Worst take in this thread, he won 10 premier tournaments at the age of 18 and half a million prizemoney. In his last tournament he barely lost blizzcon 3-4 to sOs. There's absolutely nothing that indicates he would have crumbled, he's the most talented player ever and apparently he didn't even need to practice that much to maintain his skill level.
We will never know, signs were there iirc that Life was somewhat on the wane (indeed it probably explains/is linked to why he was sucked in to do what he did)
The rock star that dies tragically at 27 is probably the best analogue I can think of. The veteran 70 year old ensemble is judged by their decades of waxing and waning, the former in one/two outstanding works and the thought of what might have been.
Let’s say Innovation had to stop playing after his first two years, years I still remember with awed reverence as maybe the scariest player I’ve seen relative to the competition. We’d probably judge him in a similar light versus what actually happened which was him dropping to merely being amongst the absolute best players, then a few years of being pretty mediocre.
Not that I’m disputing Life’s talent but his departure somewhat ruined his reputation as a person, but it forever solidified his reputation as a player, like an ancient insect trapped in amber.
I’ll add Taeja into the conversation as amongst the most talented players we’ve seen. He didn’t really come through the school of eSF/Kespa team houses but yet he was going toe to toe with those lads. He traded blows pretty equally with peak Life in some of the best series of the era, bested a peak Innovation in one of the all-time great games and his feats at IPL TAC were insane.
Maybe lacks a few elements to stick him high up in the GOAT pantheon, although I’d rate him relatively highly, but as an absolute raw talent he was top tier
- Again, if we pretend Serrals era (which casually makes up half the games lifespan) isn't worth much, then neither is Marus. Case closed, we are all wrong, GOAT is probably Innovation.
Completely false, as if there would be no other opinion between the two extremes "everything after 2016 doesn't count" and "results in every year of the games lifespan should be worth the same, regardless of the level of competition".
- In my opinion, Life owns his entire legacy to his stupidity. If he didn't do what he did, he would have crumbled over the years considerably and today we would remember him as that guy who was really good and then lost his edge. The only reason why people talk about him is because his journey got cut short through his own idiocracy
Worst take in this thread, he won 10 premier tournaments at the age of 18 and half a million prizemoney. In his last tournament he barely lost blizzcon 3-4 to sOs. There's absolutely nothing that indicates he would have crumbled, he's the most talented player ever and apparently he didn't even need to practice that much to maintain his skill level.
Yes, I know, usually it gets filtered between "did Maru win? Then it counts and is the most impressive win ever" and "Did Serral win? Lol, ded gaem".
Guy was so unstable, he would have most definetly crumbled. Maybe he would have been able to win something big again before it happened and he would go up the ladder, but otherwise...nah, not really. Though now that you mention it, Mvp somehow snuck into the Top 5 of the GOAT-list, so maybe you are right...
Just going to throw in Nada as the most talented SC progamer ever (even more than Flash, Maru, Serral, etc).
Flash had innate talent, but worked his absolute ass off as well, and we've seen times when his performance is rusty (like right now), leading to early exits out of tournaments like ASL 1.
Nada was at the top of the world, winning the golden mouse (3rd OSL championship), but according to Flash, literally just played Sudden Attack leading up to the finals, and just copied a build he saw once and won.
On May 04 2024 04:45 ruhtraeel wrote: Just going to throw in Nada as the most talented SC progamer ever (even more than Flash, Maru, Serral, etc).
Flash had innate talent, but worked his absolute ass off as well, and we've seen times when his performance is rusty (like right now), leading to early exits out of tournaments like ASL 1.
Nada was at the top of the world, winning the golden mouse (3rd OSL championship), but according to Flash, literally just played Sudden Attack leading up to the finals, and just copied a build he saw once and won.
You aren't wrong about peak Nada's talent. The huge difference is that Flash has survived every era of the game since he started. Nada tried to come back in the ASL and couldn't.
One thing to ponder, did Serral has ever brought his team to win official pro-league tournament? (Not something like one day team event) Basilisk has participated WTL tournament three times so far with heavily favorite to win, but cannot do that under Serral as one of his member. I knew these are also other teammate responsibilities but still why Maru or Rogue can manhandle their team to win the trophy but not Serral?
Maru brought Prime, JinairGreenwings, Team NV and Onsyde to win most of the official pro league trophies ever introduced while Rogue brought JinairGreenwings and DPG to win WTL later. Even in the lesser prestigious, ie War chest Team League (three weeks pro-league tournament handle by the casters), his team lost to TY's team in the final. Is anything happens that lead to Serral shoulder the most responsibilities causing the other members of his team to contributes lesser? Or Serral just choose the wrong team or very late in participating the WTL proleague event?
Since everyone talked much about Maru's individualistic proleague career in 2012-2016, there should be clear distinctions between how Maru can manhandle his team to win proleague team event transcending over a decade and how he triumphed as member of team in any of the proleague matches.
On May 05 2024 22:57 swarminfestor wrote: One thing to ponder, did Serral has ever brought his team to win official pro-league tournament? (Not something like one day team event) Basilisk has participated WTL tournament three times so far with heavily favorite to win, but cannot do that under Serral as one of his member. I knew these are also other teammate responsibilities but still why Maru or Rogue can manhandle their team to win the trophy but not Serral?
What is there to ponder?
Serral's performance in WTL, like most of his performances, has been stellar. It was Maru's teammates who simply performed better than Serral's teammates in those leagues, relatively speaking. Trigger, while showing potential, is simply not at the level of an S-tier player, and Reynor's 50/50 statistics have become a literal meme.
For instance, Serral has literally been awarded the Regular Season MVP in the Summer 2023 season. Later on in the playoffs, he all-killed the third-best team of WTL Code S, Abydos. On that particular day, he also continued to go on a 9-0 win streak, before losing a single ZvZ series against Solar. In fact, his wins on that day also included a 2-0 over Maru, as so often. If anyone's contribution to the Onsyde victory on the finals day stood out, it was Solar's, not Maru's, which is why Solar also got the Playoffs MVP, not Maru.
Besides, while not as prestigious, it is worth noting that Serral single-handedly brought Finland, out of all coutries, to win Nation Wars 2019 against, yes, South Korea in the finals.
EPT
