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ZeroByte13
758 Posts
Mizenhauer made his choice, it will not change - just like opinions of Maru and Serral fans will not change. But when people start repeating themselves, same arguments going round and round, it just looks sad, IMO.  Many here don't just write "I don't agree but ok" - they seemingly cannot live in peace with the fact that someone else might have a different opinion. | ||
Poopi
France12771 Posts
On April 30 2024 01:06 Balnazza wrote: Can we please put emphasis on the fact that this is purely your personal opinion, never in any way, shape or form proven by statistics or arguments? Don't mean that as an attack, but you constantly throw that statement around like it is some kind of unwritten law of Starcraft 2 that everyone is aware of. It isn't. In fact, you yourself contradict that statement right after Katowice, when you exclaimed Maru "played like a God" during the finals...which he lost 4:0. If that was Maru at his absolute best, then why didn't he win atleast a map? And I know, I also stated in the past that Serral is the best player in terms of skill and potential - in my opinion. Because it is mostly an opinion- or even feeling-based statement. Peak Serral feels untouchable, like he never even misplaces a unit. Every Zergling is exactly where it should be at all times and even when the opponent blocks the first, second and third attack, there is always a "yes, but..." with him. I kind of get where you are coming from, since I would also attest that Marus greatest strength is his raw level of skill - but that is basically the only thing going for him, as weird as that seems. Which for me (again, just by personal feeling), proves that he can't be "better than anyone else at full potential", because his thing is literally that he can beat most people below him consistently, but can't punch above his paygrade. If he was the most gifted and best in terms of raw skill, he never would need to punch above said paygrade, because there wouldn't be anyone there to punch. Anyway. Just wanted to clarifiy that point about him being "the greatest". Argue with statistics, overhype the GSL format if you need to, because that is based on statistics and arguments. But "he is the best because he is my favorite player and I like terran" isn't exactly an argument to throw around. You can’t prove anything that subjective with statistics though. There is no truth to it, it’s just a narrative that you have to push. Obviously, some players are not in the conversation. And when speaking about GOAT, individual games are not that important. About the Katowice game in question, it’s difficult to analyze how godlike each player played because the cameraman could not keep up, and post games analysis are biased because players might misremember their thoughts / actions etc. This whole GOAT thing between Maru and Serral is not about « best » or whatever, it’s about legacy and history. It not just about cold statistics, but about emotions. Maru is Starcraft 2. People will remember StarCraft 2 with Maru as the legend. | ||
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Ciaus237
South Africa276 Posts
On April 30 2024 02:21 Poopi wrote: This whole GOAT thing between Maru and Serral is not about « best » or whatever, it’s about legacy and history. It not just about cold statistics, but about emotions. Maru is Starcraft 2. People will remember StarCraft 2 with Maru as the legend. is this really the argument you think puts Maru over Serral? Serral holding the 2018 finals trophy holds more emotion and drama than most of Maru's career put together. Serral broke a two-decade long precedent in StarCraft history, and has 3 world championships. The tournaments that draw the greatest audience, have the highest emotions, and do the most to cement legacy. Maru has none. He was the guy who lost to make Oliveira's miracle run I guess. He was the guy who lost to finish this debate in the minds of many viewers. If you want to make an argument for Maru, this is not it. | ||
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Poopi
France12771 Posts
On April 30 2024 02:39 Ciaus237 wrote: is this really the argument you think puts Maru over Serral? Serral holding the 2018 finals trophy holds more emotion and drama than most of Maru's career put together. Serral broke a two-decade long precedent in StarCraft history, and has 3 world championships. The tournaments that draw the greatest audience, have the highest emotions, and do the most to cement legacy. Maru has none. He was the guy who lost to make Oliveira's miracle run I guess. He was the guy who lost to finish this debate in the minds of many viewers. If you want to make an argument for Maru, this is not it. I don't want to convince people that Maru is the goat, I want to persuade them. And Maru doesn't need me to defend himself as the GOAT, he is noted as #1 atm. Mvp was #1 in the latest community list, now it's Maru. Whoever will be next will probably be the guy who is not fed up with the game and keeps competing, like Happy is nowadays in wc3. | ||
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lokol4890
107 Posts
On April 30 2024 02:39 Ciaus237 wrote: Serral broke a two-decade long precedent in StarCraft history, and has 3 world championships. Hmm I count 2 (2018 blizzcon and one iem when it counted as a world championship). What's the other one I'm missing? | ||
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Oukka
Finland1683 Posts
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swarminfestor
Malaysia2449 Posts
Serral broke a two-decade long precedent in StarCraft history, and has 3 world championships. This is purely emotional statement, not factual one. | ||
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Ciaus237
South Africa276 Posts
On April 30 2024 03:45 lokol4890 wrote: Hmm I count 2 (2018 blizzcon and one iem when it counted as a world championship). What's the other one I'm missing? Counting the last one, Katowice 2024, as a WC. It has the full year regional seeding and a 150K 1st place prize. But if one wants to not have it in that category, it's still 0 - 2 + WhateverKato2024 is in terms of that tier of international event in Serral's favor. On April 30 2024 04:01 swarminfestor wrote: This is purely emotional statement, not factual one. Can you find me another non-korean, SC1 or SC2, who achieved the results Serral has? Particularly one who did it first? This is a not a matter some intangible - players like Jinro, Stephano and Neeb cracked the precedent a bit, but Serral shattered it. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44137 Posts
On April 30 2024 04:01 swarminfestor wrote: Rogue has completed resume of more world championships titles (Blizcon 2017, Katowice 2018,2020) and did so before Serral finally made his own in 2024 That's a good point, and it's not the first time that someone has brought up Rogue's amazing list of accomplishments. Maybe we should make another GoaT list where Serral gets bumped down to #3. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44137 Posts
On April 30 2024 04:16 Ciaus237 wrote: Counting the last one, Katowice 2024, as a WC. It has the full year regional seeding and a 150K 1st place prize. But if one wants to not have it in that category, it's still 0 - 2 + WhateverKato2024 is in terms of that tier of international event in Serral's favor. Can you find me another non-korean, SC1 or SC2, who achieved the results Serral has? Particularly one who did it first? This is a not a matter some intangible - players like Jinro, Stephano and Neeb cracked the precedent a bit, but Serral shattered it. In terms of GSL: Jinro, Naniwa, IdrA, etc. They've all succeeded in performing well in GSLs. Unfortunately, Serral hasn't attempted a GSL run, so all of those foreigners have had more impressive results than Serral when it comes to just the GSL. | ||
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Ciaus237
South Africa276 Posts
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swarminfestor
Malaysia2449 Posts
On April 30 2024 04:20 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: That's a good point, and it's not the first time that someone has brought up Rogue's amazing list of accomplishments. Maybe we should make another GoaT list where Serral gets bumped down to #3. Mizenhaur knew this, citing inconsistency for the reason not putting Rogue over Serral even though Rogue made the complete resume first, won multiple Code S and almost perfect offline Bo7 results. I tried to reason out whether Rogue's absence over the last two years could impact his ranking. I just agree to disagree as a matter of respect for his article. But during Rogue's absence over the last two years, Serral finally made his third world championship title. This is also true. | ||
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Balnazza
Germany1126 Posts
On April 30 2024 02:21 Poopi wrote: Maru is Starcraft 2. People will remember StarCraft 2 with Maru as the legend. If you ask the majority of people who at some point in time have been fans of SC2, most of them probably can't even remember who Maru is. HuK and Naniwa would probably get more "that is SC2"-answers than Maru. If we only focus on the remaining people who are still interested in SC2, there is a split between Serral, Maru and Rogue, though from feeling I would say the quantities go Serral > Maru > Rogue. So no, Maru isn't Starcraft 2. And people will remember him as "A legend", not "THE legend". If you want to see how it looks when someone is "The Legend" of a game, look at TheViper in AoE2. Even now, when he is clearly not the best player in the world anymore, he is still considered to be the biggest legend, just from his legacy, his skill, the way he innovated the game, his dominance, but also the impact he had on the community. Compared to that, Maru is just an extremly boring player who is good. Sure, very good, extremly good, but that's it. His most exciting storyline is "can't win a World Championship to save his life"...what a legend... | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24945 Posts
On April 30 2024 04:01 swarminfestor wrote: Rogue has completed resume of more world championships titles (Blizcon 2017, Katowice 2018,2020) and did so before Serral finally made his own in 2024, but we didn't make drama like Serral's zealot fans trying to belittle Maru's achievements since 2012. This is purely emotional statement, not factual one. How is it not factual? Whether one wishes to weigh in particularly highly or not is down to subjective valuation, and emotions come into play there. But it’s not really disputable that Serral broke a long-established glass ceiling to become one of the best players in the world and win tournaments of a level that Koreans had had a monopoly on for decades. | ||
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Poopi
France12771 Posts
On April 30 2024 04:55 Balnazza wrote: If you ask the majority of people who at some point in time have been fans of SC2, most of them probably can't even remember who Maru is. HuK and Naniwa would probably get more "that is SC2"-answers than Maru. If we only focus on the remaining people who are still interested in SC2, there is a split between Serral, Maru and Rogue, though from feeling I would say the quantities go Serral > Maru > Rogue. So no, Maru isn't Starcraft 2. And people will remember him as "A legend", not "THE legend". If you want to see how it looks when someone is "The Legend" of a game, look at TheViper in AoE2. Even now, when he is clearly not the best player in the world anymore, he is still considered to be the biggest legend, just from his legacy, his skill, the way he innovated the game, his dominance, but also the impact he had on the community. Compared to that, Maru is just an extremly boring player who is good. Sure, very good, extremly good, but that's it. His most exciting storyline is "can't win a World Championship to save his life"...what a legend... Maru's storyline with WC is the same as Messi storyline in football though. Guess who is the soccer goat?  | ||
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Moonerz
United States444 Posts
On April 30 2024 04:55 Balnazza wrote: If you ask the majority of people who at some point in time have been fans of SC2, most of them probably can't even remember who Maru is. HuK and Naniwa would probably get more "that is SC2"-answers than Maru. If we only focus on the remaining people who are still interested in SC2, there is a split between Serral, Maru and Rogue, though from feeling I would say the quantities go Serral > Maru > Rogue. So no, Maru isn't Starcraft 2. And people will remember him as "A legend", not "THE legend". If you want to see how it looks when someone is "The Legend" of a game, look at TheViper in AoE2. Even now, when he is clearly not the best player in the world anymore, he is still considered to be the biggest legend, just from his legacy, his skill, the way he innovated the game, his dominance, but also the impact he had on the community. Compared to that, Maru is just an extremly boring player who is good. Sure, very good, extremly good, but that's it. His most exciting storyline is "can't win a World Championship to save his life"...what a legend... People knowing naniwa and huk more than maru are not the people you would ask if you had any desire to actually find out about the communities view on legends lol. No disrespect to either of those players but they haven't been relevant for quite some time now. And how could you have watched sc from that era to now even casually and not know maru? If anything it points to what you're actually saying. Europe and NA obviously relate much more to an English speaking European which is totally fine and normal therefore these players tend to be the most well known. And lol at saying maru is boring like serral isn't also an extremely boring interview generally. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24945 Posts
On April 30 2024 06:09 Poopi wrote: Maru's storyline with WC is the same as Messi storyline in football though. Guess who is the soccer goat? Not Messi? I mean he’d get my vote but it’s a rather highly disputed one. Maru’s got a great claim, but he’s not Flash. A significant proportion of the community don’t consider him the dude | ||
Mizenhauer
United States1840 Posts
On April 30 2024 02:10 ZeroByte13 wrote: I'm pretty sure we heard all possible disagreements here by now - which change absolutely nothing, of course. Mizenhauer made his choice, it will not change - just like opinions of Maru and Serral fans will not change. But when people start repeating themselves, same arguments going round and round, it just looks sad, IMO. Many here don't just write "I don't agree but ok" - they seemingly cannot live in peace with the fact that someone else might have a different opinion. Thank you for informing me how my opinion will develop with time. I was really worried about how I was gonna handle that. | ||
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Poopi
France12771 Posts
On April 30 2024 06:28 WombaT wrote: Not Messi? I mean he’d get my vote but it’s a rather highly disputed one. Maru’s got a great claim, but he’s not Flash. A significant proportion of the community don’t consider him the dude Flash is not Maru either, not anywhere near as talented (semi joking, it’s close but Maru really is out of this world). Flash has been great in BW, but « bad » at sc2 and would have been eaten alive by INno sooner or later. Since he got caught in the crypto scandal, his legacy will probably be ternished a bit and a player like Rain who has been incredibly good in both StarCraft and different eras will probably have a better claim at GOAT than Flash. No disrespect to Flash, but even though he was the obvious goat for some time, what he does outside the game matters as well for that conversation. It’s like super smash bros melee. People were so focused on the « five » gods, that they forgot that they were just human, they just needed another human to show other players the way (it was Leffen ultimately), then everyone would follow. It’s the same for Flash, BW is still going strong since it’s an absolute great game, and some players keep honing their legacy inside and outside the game. Betting / crypto affinity in KR is problematic because it can prevent you from playing / appearing in public etc, so you need to take that into account for your legacy, not just your in game achievements (see Life). And « of all time » is kinda biased, because it actually evolves over time, but it makes for great discussions. EDIT: read clarification on my opinion at post #715 if you are interested | ||
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ZeroByte13
758 Posts
On April 30 2024 06:52 Mizenhauer wrote: Beside the fact that this is my opinion/view - which I am allowed to have, I suppose? - I also meant changing ranking in this specific series of articles, not your opinion in future in general.Thank you for informing me how my opinion will develop with time. I was really worried about how I was gonna handle that. Or do you plan to update this series and move players around? | ||
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