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Harris1st
Germany6860 Posts
On April 18 2024 11:57 JJH777 wrote: Tennis is the same again multiple weeks long at least for all the major events. Tennis Grand Slams are 2 weeks long which is as short as can be without fatigue of players beeing too big a thing. Also there are hundreds of players competing, not 16. Tennis has been the pinnacle of 1v1 competition for the last decade by a lot of metrics: money, reach, fans, viewers | ||
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ejozl
Denmark3347 Posts
On April 18 2024 03:58 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: This is absolutely the correct take. The more time you have, the more you can prepare, the more you can compensate for a skill gap between you and your opponent, especially when it's possible that opponent is preparing less for you than you are for them. Weekender tournaments with a limited amount of time to prepare between matches naturally lead to a much higher skill ceiling, because the amount of time/preparation is constrained. Anything constrained becomes harder. GSL and preparation tournaments were hard not because it's the highest skill format, it's because people can prepare to snipe you, even people who are considered much less skilled than you. If you win a prep tournament, it is a good testament to your skill that you survived the potential of many people trying their best to overcome the skill gap and snipe you, but the tournament format itself does not lead to the highest skill ceiling possible. It's the age old meme question of "can Batman defeat X with years of preparation?" The preparation is making up for their lack of skill and strength. No one thinks Batman is stronger than Superman for example. This is also why Taeja is underrated these days (at least according to the active posters on TL these days). He was specifically very consistent at winning premiere weekender tournaments, the hardest kind of tournament to be consistent in, and while defeating top HotS players like Innovation, Life, MMA, MC, Zest, sOs, etc. (Some of which would sometimes drown in pools! You don't see them being knocked out Round 1 of GSL do you?) I think there is a bit of a contradiction here, or at least it's only a half truth, like most things. I agree in the sense that if Scarlett takes out Rogue, it might mean that I play Scarlett instead of Rogue, but I'm not sure that makes it easier. Because at the same time, why did Rogue lose to Scarlett, because the tournament is harder to be consistent in, but in another way. Because a less powerful player can construct a plan to beat a more powerful one. And as long as the rules don't change, like the Semi Finals and the Finals being played on the same day in the GSL, then the better preparing player, can continue to prepare better as that player progresses. In the end both players play each other, or should play each other under the same restrictions, so there isn't one type of tournament that is harder than another, though being able to win under any circumstance should constitute the best player. A Leenock type of player who can play an entire weekend event playing at a span of over 12 hours a day, should be recognized for his skill set. And the same with the preparation type player, and even being able to play without their own keyboard and mouse, or playing from home. In the end the player that wins, is the more skilled at winning, and that should be all that matters. And being able to handle jet lag, or taking responsibility of getting there early, so as to not suffer from jet lag is included in this skill set. Personally, I really like preparation style, but it's in no way a superior format, I wish that we can see many differently run tournaments and in that way have different players shine, showcasing these skill sets. | ||
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Balnazza
Germany1126 Posts
On April 18 2024 11:57 JJH777 wrote: I was talking in general in competition. Obviously not in SC2. At least since proleague ended. Team sports you already conceded though with caveats I don't fully agree with. They want strategy to be a big part of it and the only way that's possible is with prep. It's not just about time slots/hype/logistics. They definitely believe (correctly imo) prep leads to better play. Chess also has prep outside of the world championship. The tournament that chooses the challenger for the world champion is only 8 players and 3 weeks long. That's longer than the top 8 of GSL. Most major chess tournaments are at least 2 weeks long. The qualifiers may be the brutal SC2 structure but in the tournaments themselves they give prep time. While it's not as long as GSL that's far different than the typical 3 days for SC2 tournaments. Tennis is the same again multiple weeks long at least for all the major events. Tennis Grand Slams are two weeks long because you have a massive field of players you physically need to place onto courts that then proceed to play two to three hour long games that are physically draining. I'm of course not saying that SC2 isn't physically draining, but I think we can all agree that going five sets against Djokovic will leave you in a much worse physical state than going five maps against Serral or Maru. Or in other terms: If you said to a Tennis player he had to play Katowice-Style, aka. the entire Ro8 on one day, six out of eight players would probably be collaps before the finals and/or leave the tournament with some kind of injury. With teamsports, it is kind of the same. Sure, US-Sports have generally more preptime, but if needed, they will easily cram as much gameplay as possible in a very short amount of time. To give one example: The European Handball Champions League, THE Handball tournament in the world, plays out their finals in a Final 4 on one weekend. Saturday is the Ro4, Sunday is the Small and Grand Final. World and Europe Cup for nations have the same system. 90% of "prep-time" in general sports comes from the physical challenges and "problems" that come with non-esports. Regeneration, travel, ticket sales and media presentation. Which, if we are honest, is the only reason koreans have this kind of "prep league" in the first place: When the first OSL came around in what, 2001 or something, no one thought "it would be so cool if we gave players enough time to prepare!". The general sound was most likely "sooo...hooow do we stretch this thing out long enough that we can actually fill a TV schedule with it?" | ||
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MyLovelyLurker
France756 Posts
On April 18 2024 12:52 WombaT wrote: It’s odd now I think of it, seems pretty obvious. Myself included, we talk about the various on-paper positives of each format What about the games in actuality? Is this prep actually resulting in higher level StarCraft? I’d argue not really at all, and I don’t think it has in quite a while now. I mean I’d say Serral pulled more tailored plans out of the pocket in his Katowice done (that gold/roach build versus Dark was especially nice) than we saw in the GSL finals day. If we consider a combination of a lesser overall field of real contenders, much of the field being confirmed way, way out for the tournament, and the prize pool. I mean you’re probably seeing far more prep for that tournament than GSL these days. People have months to gain an edge I mean pretty much exactly this. People will save their builds and order them by tournament importance. We will probably see vicious competition and pocket builds for Gamers8. That's absolutely the rational thing to do. In practice another case in point everyone remembers : Classic's blink DTs vs Rogue at Blizzcon 2019. In neutral fashion I honestly think we see the highest level of play at large prizepool tournaments Koreans care about, if only because Reynor and Serral are in there as well on top of all the usual suspects. Then it's GSL, but the difference is minuscule anyway. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10324 Posts
On April 18 2024 18:55 ejozl wrote: I think there is a bit of a contradiction here, or at least it's only a half truth, like most things. I agree in the sense that if Scarlett takes out Rogue, it might mean that I play Scarlett instead of Rogue, but I'm not sure that makes it easier. Because at the same time, why did Rogue lose to Scarlett, because the tournament is harder to be consistent in, but in another way. Because a less powerful player can construct a plan to beat a more powerful one. And as long as the rules don't change, like the Semi Finals and the Finals being played on the same day in the GSL, then the better preparing player, can continue to prepare better as that player progresses. In the end both players play each other, or should play each other under the same restrictions, so there isn't one type of tournament that is harder than another, though being able to win under any circumstance should constitute the best player. A Leenock type of player who can play an entire weekend event playing at a span of over 12 hours a day, should be recognized for his skill set. And the same with the preparation type player, and even being able to play without their own keyboard and mouse, or playing from home. In the end the player that wins, is the more skilled at winning, and that should be all that matters. And being able to handle jet lag, or taking responsibility of getting there early, so as to not suffer from jet lag is included in this skill set. Personally, I really like preparation style, but it's in no way a superior format, I wish that we can see many differently run tournaments and in that way have different players shine, showcasing these skill sets. Yep both tourny formats are hard in their ways and definitely have different skill sets. I do think prep tournies are harder to win because everyone has more time to prep more and play closer to their peak for those games, and thus lower level players could theoretically close the gap. Weekender tournies are harder to win if you're a lower level player cus the gap will just be wide. In that sense, if you're a top pro, you will have the advantage in a weekender tournament where it's harder for lower level players to snipe you. However, the nature of the tourny also leads to more volatility in general, because everyone will be less prepared and less practiced and less rested between matches, so there is that unique aspect giving lower level players a chance to make an upset. On April 18 2024 22:22 MyLovelyLurker wrote: I mean pretty much exactly this. People will save their builds and order them by tournament importance. We will probably see vicious competition and pocket builds for Gamers8. That's absolutely the rational thing to do. In practice another case in point everyone remembers : Classic's blink DTs vs Rogue at Blizzcon 2019. In neutral fashion I honestly think we see the highest level of play at large prizepool tournaments Koreans care about, if only because Reynor and Serral are in there as well on top of all the usual suspects. Then it's GSL, but the difference is minuscule anyway. Great examples. As sad as it makes me, the last GSL finals of hero vs Maru was really disappointing. It didn't feel like it had the level of preparation/polish from other player. It just felt like a GSL Ro8 match. Watching the Creator vs Rogue finals was really hype and intense to me in contrast, for example. Like the game when Creator went adepts vs Rogue, and they just kept fighting back and forth, it was so close and it felt every little micro move had so much weight. The play and unit control was just so cool to watch. It felt like both players were just super confident and prepared. I know this is part of it being played on the same day as the semifinals, and cus GSL has much less on the line with the reduced prizepool and dwindling interest/glory. Just makes me sad that for all the buildup of a GSL season, we're not getting the treat of a week of prep for the GSL finals. And with the smaller prize pool, i guess that might just be OK. It's been a good run  | ||
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Durnuu
13320 Posts
Of course you can argue the opposite and say players need to "warm up" to put on their best, and players are used to playing 50 games a day anyway. I'll also add that the perceived superiority of prep (which is an opinion I share, not throwing any shade here) is a little biased nowadays, due to 1) prep style tournaments having the stronger field of players overall for the longest time, and 2) old weekenders had strange formats, remember bo3 semis and bo5 finals ? Yeah that wasn't great, of course you'd feel that it's harder to win a decisive 4-1 in GSL semis, rather than a "random" 2-0 for a dreamhack, and that feeling kinda stayed over the years. And a small 3) for proleague, which was undeniably a priority for korean players, a remnant of Broodwar. And then you also had weekenders that were "fun" like HSC, not taken as seriously. And last but not least, but weekenders also used to have a lower prize pool overall, other than the IEM circuit finals (now known as Katowice) and Blizzcon. All little things that contribute to this feeling of "not as skilled / prestigious" that persists to this day. | ||
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AmFreak
16 Posts
On April 17 2024 09:54 CicadaSC wrote: nah, preparing for opponents is a skill in and of itself. its an extra layer. Yes, an extra layer that doesn't have to depend on players' skills and thus can skew the outcome. | ||
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Cricketer12
United States13972 Posts
On April 24 2024 23:45 AmFreak wrote: Yes, an extra layer that doesn't have to depend on players' skills and thus can skew the outcome. Only if you deny the S in RTS. | ||
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AmFreak
16 Posts
Read the thread, instead of writing a snarky reply. It doesn't have to depend, because you can outsource to other people the moment you have actual time to prepare. If you have infrastructure behind you like a team, a coach, training partners playing that style etc. you have a clear advantage against someone on his own that you wouldn't have (or to a far smaller degree) in a "normal" tourney. Thus it depends less on your own skill than tournaments where you can't use that infrastructure. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15914 Posts
On April 25 2024 02:10 AmFreak wrote: Read the thread, instead of writing a snarky reply. It doesn't have to depend, because you can outsource to other people the moment you have actual time to prepare. If you have infrastructure behind you like a team, a coach, training partners playing that style etc. you have a clear advantage against someone on his own that you wouldn't have (or to a far smaller degree) in a "normal" tourney. Thus it depends less on your own skill than tournaments where you can't use that infrastructure. Uhmm you can do that in every tournament, what about Lambo giving Reynor builds and advice between the games | ||
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Moonerz
United States444 Posts
So for example by the time a protoss has made the finals they've shown most of their tricks and don't have much time to plan new builds, the stuff they've been using gets scouted and dealt with. Personally I find prep tournaments more interesting because you are more likely to see cool/unique uses of the map features or strategies instead of fairly standard games | ||
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Lexender
Mexico2627 Posts
On April 25 2024 02:10 AmFreak wrote: Read the thread, instead of writing a snarky reply. It doesn't have to depend, because you can outsource to other people the moment you have actual time to prepare. If you have infrastructure behind you like a team, a coach, training partners playing that style etc. you have a clear advantage against someone on his own that you wouldn't have (or to a far smaller degree) in a "normal" tourney. Thus it depends less on your own skill than tournaments where you can't use that infrastructure. TIL that skill is only about how fast and accurate you can click on thinks. Strategy is also an skill, its not just about mindlessly clicking on things, player like sOs and Gumiho have become champions by mastering that specific skill. | ||
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JJH777
United States4394 Posts
Does anyone really think that in a world where everyone played standard every game Maru wouldn't do even better than he already does? Most off his losses especially the big ones are when his opponents predict and hard counter his build choice. His lack of international weekender success is unrelated to his teams preparing stuff for him. That argument doesn't make any sense at all if you watch the games. | ||
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AmFreak
16 Posts
On April 25 2024 03:26 Charoisaur wrote: Uhmm you can do that in every tournament, what about Lambo giving Reynor builds and advice between the games Sure, but it's not on the same level. If a single player acting as a coach for minutes-hours is already an advantage against players on their own, an entire team for days-weeks for sure is. On April 25 2024 04:02 Lexender wrote: TIL that skill is only about how fast and accurate you can click on thinks. Strategy is also an skill, its not just about mindlessly clicking on things, player like sOs and Gumiho have become champions by mastering that specific skill. I have explained it numerous times, if you ignore that for emotional reasons, whatever. | ||
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CicadaSC
United States1562 Posts
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Poopi
France12771 Posts
On April 25 2024 04:28 JJH777 wrote: The argument that Maru relied on the preparation of his team mates to do so well in GSL is the most annoying and dumb argument against him imo. It's just so obviously not true if you watch basically any Maru series that it's infuriating people keep making it. Maru almost never wins series through good build order choices or predicting what his opponent is going to do which are the main things team based preparation would help with. If anything it's the exact opposite. Maru often makes poor build choices and gets read like a book by his opponents but he's so much better in other ways that it doesn't matter. Does anyone really think that in a world where everyone played standard every game Maru wouldn't do even better than he already does? Most off his losses especially the big ones are when his opponents predict and hard counter his build choice. His lack of international weekender success is unrelated to his teams preparing stuff for him. That argument doesn't make any sense at all if you watch the games. Maru does well in the GSL for the same reason Serral is successful in most tournaments he enters. They are just (through talent / environment / training etc.) above their peers, so they will usually do better than their peers. As simple as that. Sometimes people don't practice with you (example being Serral losing to RagnaroK in 2023 because the EU zergs didn't want to practice ZvZ, and sometimes shadow starcraft is not enough), or you are sick (various players at the DH that Clem won), or your mother died or you are depressed, etc. But ultimately, as Jaedong said in his WCS series about probably Rogue or another great zerg: winners gonna win, or something along those lines. | ||
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Locutos
Brazil259 Posts
On April 28 2024 01:29 Poopi wrote: ...Maru does well in the GSL for the same reason Serral is successful in most tournaments he enters. Correction: Maru does well in GSL because he's better than his peers, and because Serral wasnt born in Korea. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44139 Posts
On April 28 2024 07:37 Locutos wrote: Correction: Maru does well in GSL because he's better than his peers, and because Serral wasnt born in Korea. That excuse would only work if foreigners/non-Koreans were banned from participating in the GSL. They're not banned, and they've participated in the GSL, even if they weren't born in Korea. If Serral doesn't want to compete in the GSL, then he doesn't have to, but don't put down the GSL players just because Serral doesn't join them. | ||
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JJH777
United States4394 Posts
On April 28 2024 07:37 Locutos wrote: Correction: Maru does well in GSL because he's better than his peers, and because Serral wasnt born in Korea. And Serral only won as much as he's won because many SC2 tournaments have outright banned or artificially limited KR participation. | ||
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Locutos
Brazil259 Posts
On April 28 2024 09:16 JJH777 wrote: And Serral only won as much as he's won because many SC2 tournaments have outright banned or artificially limited KR participation. Im not talking about ESL Europe. Im talking about the fact that in all the premiers Serral and Maru have both participated, Serral has won double the times Maru won. Simple as that. | ||
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