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On April 10 2024 00:29 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2024 08:47 LostUsername100 wrote:On April 09 2024 07:56 WombaT wrote:On April 09 2024 07:48 UglyGnu wrote:
Enough to register an account after all this years... What is your opinion about that? You compared them on aligulac? Aligulac is fraught with problems, even those who conceived it concede them. Personally Serral gets my vote but others have a very good claim too. What are those problems? How would you improve Aligulac accuracy? I don’t think there is a way to account for separate regions and differentiate between tournaments of various levels of prestige and things like online cups and bigger offline tournies. Also general rating inflation. It’s no criticism of Aligulac I mean I really don’t feel there is a a way to accurately account for the intangibles of the SC2 scene via any kind of ELO or ELO-influenced methodology. It’s still great for many things as a database and predictor MaxPax is currently the second best player in the world via Aligulac, if that doesn’t illustrate some of the issues with Aligulac ratings I’m not sure what does
I wonder if Aligulac could add an option to toggle an offline vs both ELO. I know there are much fewer offline matches played so the ELO might not be accurate, but it would be nice to see how well/different players perform in the offline tournament setting, which is usually either Premier tournaments or local LANs.
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Some more salt for this topic. Since almost 15 years Maru is a top SC 2 player and he achieved many great success and a brilliant career. But in this long time he also become known for getting tilted and loosing big finals (vs. roaches e.g.). He never was the best SC 2 player at any longer time period - at least not uncontested. And his winrates vs other top player are not as good as many Maru fanboys think.
Serral vs Maru 39 - 19
TY vs Maru 34 - 31
PartingG vs Maru 22 - 18
Trap vs Maru 36 - 35
sOs vs Maru 22 - 21
So imho one of the best SC2 players but not the GOAT.
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On April 14 2024 11:52 UglyGnu wrote:
Since almost 15 years Maru is a top SC 2 player and he achieved many great success and a brilliant career. But in this long time he also become known for getting tilted and loosing big finals (vs. roaches e.g.).
I agree, and I think this is another one of the somewhat overlooked aspects in the GoaT debate.
Although it is just one criterion besides many others, I think the ability to perform consistently and to bring the best play in high-pressure, high-stakes situations should be expected of any GoaT candidate. And Maru, while obviously operating at an absurdly high level, is notorious for falling short in this respect, to the point that even his biggest fans have devoted an entire thread to his throws and tilts. For example, despite the beauty of Oliveira's Cinderella story, it should never have happened. The WC title was handed to Maru on a silver platter, and he failed to capitalize on it.
In my view, this is unfitting for the title of the GoaT. Imagine someone told you about another sport: "Yeah, so-and-so is the greatest player of all time. Oh and by the way, he is famous for crumbling when it matters most."
Serral, in contrast, is the epitome of consistency. He almost never loses against weaker players, and he never repeats strategies that do not work. To the contrary, there are several series where you can observe in real time how he adapts and fixes his play based on previous outcomes. Maru in turn occasionally replays and replays strategies proved ineffective in the same series. Of course, Serral too can lose, but he essentially never just implodes. His single greatest tilt is probably that early gg against Ragnarok.
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United States1798 Posts
On April 15 2024 01:20 Antithesis wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2024 11:52 UglyGnu wrote:
Since almost 15 years Maru is a top SC 2 player and he achieved many great success and a brilliant career. But in this long time he also become known for getting tilted and loosing big finals (vs. roaches e.g.). I agree, and I think this is another one of the somewhat overlooked aspects in the GoaT debate. Although it is just one criterion besides many others, I think the ability to perform consistently and to bring the best play in high-pressure, high-stakes situations should be expected of any GoaT candidate. And Maru, while obviously operating at an absurdly high level, is notorious for falling short in this respect, to the point that even his biggest fans have devoted an entire thread to his throws and tilts. For example, despite the beauty of Oliveira's Cinderella story, it should never have happened. The WC title was handed to Maru on a silver platter, and he failed to capitalize on it. In my view, this is unfitting for the title of the GoaT. Imagine someone told you about another sport: "Yeah, so-and-so is the greatest player of all time. Oh and by the way, he is famous for crumbling when it matters most." Serral, in contrast, is the epitome of consistency. He almost never loses against weaker players, and he never repeats strategies that do not work. To the contrary, there are several series where you can observe in real time how he adapts and fixes his play based on previous outcomes. Maru in turn occasionally replays and replays strategies proved ineffective in the same series. Of course, Serral too can lose, but he essentially never just implodes. His single greatest tilt is probably that early gg against Ragnarok.
Shameless link to an article I wrote that just happens to be about this topic...
https://tl.net/forum/starcraft-2/532653-i-was-wrong-about-maru
And this a few months earlier...
https://tl.net/forum/starcraft-2/529904-keepers-of-the-faith-can-innovation-and-maru-save-terran
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On April 15 2024 01:20 Antithesis wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2024 11:52 UglyGnu wrote:
Since almost 15 years Maru is a top SC 2 player and he achieved many great success and a brilliant career. But in this long time he also become known for getting tilted and loosing big finals (vs. roaches e.g.). I agree, and I think this is another one of the somewhat overlooked aspects in the GoaT debate. Although it is just one criterion besides many others, I think the ability to perform consistently and to bring the best play in high-pressure, high-stakes situations should be expected of any GoaT candidate. And Maru, while obviously operating at an absurdly high level, is notorious for falling short in this respect, to the point that even his biggest fans have devoted an entire thread to his throws and tilts. For example, despite the beauty of Oliveira's Cinderella story, it should never have happened. The WC title was handed to Maru on a silver platter, and he failed to capitalize on it. In my view, this is unfitting for the title of the GoaT. Imagine someone told you about another sport: "Yeah, so-and-so is the greatest player of all time. Oh and by the way, he is famous for crumbling when it matters most." Serral, in contrast, is the epitome of consistency. He almost never loses against weaker players, and he never repeats strategies that do not work. To the contrary, there are several series where you can observe in real time how he adapts and fixes his play based on previous outcomes. Maru in turn occasionally replays and replays strategies proved ineffective in the same series. Of course, Serral too can lose, but he essentially never just implodes. His single greatest tilt is probably that early gg against Ragnarok.
Serral was pretty tilted when he lost to Zest in IEM, his hand was literally shaking. And he has his fair share of getting 0-4/0-3 by other top players in ZvZ as well. Rogue literally cheesed him to 4-1 in less than 20 minutes a couple years ago.
Obviously hes still the most consistent player in the world and nothing can be taken away from that. People just like to "sweep away" all those times Serral struggle and act like he has NEVER lost a big series/tournament in 6 years or something.
Somehow Maru losing a WC to the hottest player in the tournament, partly because of his own blunder, are supposed to kept him away from GOAT conversation forever, but Serral lost doesnt count. Dont get me wrong, I dont think Maru is ahead of Serral, but they are not worlds apart like you or someone else like to claim.
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Maru is a monster in his own living room (aka GSL), just not anywhere else.
It's crazy he was there when SC2 started and probably will be there until the end, winning.
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Somehow Maru losing a WC to the hottest player in the tournament, partly because of his own blunder, are supposed to kept him away from GOAT conversation forever
No like mentioned there are several reasons keeping him away from the GOAT title and the strongest in my opinion is that he has a negative win rate against at least five other players. So how could he be then GOAT?
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I just read your article
https://tl.net/forum/starcraft-2/532653-i-was-wrong-about-maru
a nice one , and it makes me feel better in a way. Somehow i could not believe that a professional TL writer really can think about someone else than Serral as GOAT. So i think i assume some bad itentions - sorry. Maru really deserves all your love and i remember noticing him first playing vs my favourite player at that time (life - a shame).
It's crazy he was there when SC2 started and probably will be there until the end, winning.
I have now five post at TL - this is enough for me. And finally - thank you TL, here I learned about SC and esports in general. I will return to my watching place.
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On April 15 2024 18:49 UglyGnu wrote:Show nested quote +Somehow Maru losing a WC to the hottest player in the tournament, partly because of his own blunder, are supposed to kept him away from GOAT conversation forever No like mentioned there are several reasons keeping him away from the GOAT title and the strongest in my opinion is that he has a negative win rate against at least five other players. So how could he be then GOAT?
Zest has a negative winrate against Impact, does that make Impact a more accomplished player?
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Northern Ireland23759 Posts
On April 15 2024 19:35 Durnuu wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2024 18:49 UglyGnu wrote:Somehow Maru losing a WC to the hottest player in the tournament, partly because of his own blunder, are supposed to kept him away from GOAT conversation forever No like mentioned there are several reasons keeping him away from the GOAT title and the strongest in my opinion is that he has a negative win rate against at least five other players. So how could he be then GOAT? Zest has a negative winrate against Impact, does that make Impact a more accomplished player?
No, but it probably does count for at least something when your main competitor in the GOAT stakes has a winning H2H against basically everyone. I wouldn’t say that means Serral > Maru at all, too may other factors to consider, but it isn’t nothing either
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On April 15 2024 20:46 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2024 19:35 Durnuu wrote:On April 15 2024 18:49 UglyGnu wrote:Somehow Maru losing a WC to the hottest player in the tournament, partly because of his own blunder, are supposed to kept him away from GOAT conversation forever No like mentioned there are several reasons keeping him away from the GOAT title and the strongest in my opinion is that he has a negative win rate against at least five other players. So how could he be then GOAT? Zest has a negative winrate against Impact, does that make Impact a more accomplished player? No, but it probably does count for at least something when your main competitor in the GOAT stakes has a winning H2H against basically everyone. I wouldn’t say that means Serral > Maru at all, too may other factors to consider, but it isn’t nothing either
I agree it's not a bad argument FOR Serral, but having nemeses shouldn't be counted AGAINST Maru. Nearly every player has unexplainable, consistent losses to other players. Other than Serral, who had some "nemeses" but it never lasted, which is why I don't disagree with the people arguing for his case with it. But yeah, I don't think it's an argument to use against someone. Head to head against your peers is an achievement, but one amongst many, a very impressive one in the case of Serral, but it's an achievement just as impressive as a tournament win. Or, dare I say, just as impressive as Maru's Proleague records. "Lack of" isn't a good argument for anything and especially not when only one person has said achievement.
Also, does Maru really have that many losing records against his peers ? (especially since 2018 since SC2 obviously didn't exist before then) A quick glance at Aligulac tells me it's only Serral at -20, and then 4 retired players (and the 2nd best is at -7). We're far from the "5 other players", unless you wanna count Jaedong for Serral as well
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United States1798 Posts
On April 15 2024 21:54 Durnuu wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2024 20:46 WombaT wrote:On April 15 2024 19:35 Durnuu wrote:On April 15 2024 18:49 UglyGnu wrote:Somehow Maru losing a WC to the hottest player in the tournament, partly because of his own blunder, are supposed to kept him away from GOAT conversation forever No like mentioned there are several reasons keeping him away from the GOAT title and the strongest in my opinion is that he has a negative win rate against at least five other players. So how could he be then GOAT? Zest has a negative winrate against Impact, does that make Impact a more accomplished player? No, but it probably does count for at least something when your main competitor in the GOAT stakes has a winning H2H against basically everyone. I wouldn’t say that means Serral > Maru at all, too may other factors to consider, but it isn’t nothing either I agree it's not a bad argument FOR Serral, but having nemeses shouldn't be counted AGAINST Maru. Nearly every player has unexplainable, consistent losses to other players. Other than Serral, who had some "nemeses" but it never lasted, which is why I don't disagree with the people arguing for his case with it. But yeah, I don't think it's an argument to use against someone. Head to head against your peers is an achievement, but one amongst many, a very impressive one in the case of Serral, but it's an achievement just as impressive as a tournament win. Or, dare I say, just as impressive as Maru's Proleague records. "Lack of" isn't a good argument for anything and especially not when only one person has said achievement. Also, does Maru really have that many losing records against his peers ? (especially since 2018 since SC2 obviously didn't exist before then) A quick glance at Aligulac tells me it's only Serral at -20, and then 4 retired players (and the 2nd best is at -7). We're far from the "5 other players", unless you wanna count Jaedong for Serral as well
For me, the head to head records and the tournaments Serral has won with those players in attendance illustrates what we're trying to get at. It's the pair of the two that really separates him from Maru and Rogue in those "categories".
I rarely used head to head results in the articles, but looking at the events in which Serral+Koreans was an undeniably effective way at comparing them directly.
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Yes, Maru can tilt very quickly. Serral is also an emotional player. And from memory, innovation and rogue tilt as well. Funnily enough, I think the kong, SoO actually has a very strong fight-back mentality
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Northern Ireland23759 Posts
On April 16 2024 17:49 ejozl wrote:
Yes, Maru can tilt very quickly. Serral is also an emotional player. And from memory, innovation and rogue tilt as well. Funnily enough, I think the kong, SoO actually has a very strong fight-back mentality
Now that’s a hot take right there! Although to some degree I do think a Kong can also be pretty clutch too!
Hell a player who’s never won a big tournament, or ever will, but always punches above their usual results when it comes to a Blizzcon can I think be said to be very good on the mentality side.
I definitely give Serral the edge over Maru here at least. Not that he’s invincible or never has a bad day, but when he does lose it’s often tight and he’s usually playing his game and it doesn’t quite work out.
Whereas Maru’s biggest flubs on the big stage are when he’s not playing his game, and making atypical decisions and whatnot. When Reynor made that comeback or Oliveira won his WC it wasn’t that they were playing out of their minds (although very well), but that Maru didn’t play his usual/made terrible build choices under pressure.
I guess to me the difference between a choke, or a throw is when your fans are going ‘noooo why did you do this person I was rooting for?’ Whereas if they just get outplayed on the day it’ll be a mix of ‘fair play x wa better’ plus of course lots of balance whine! Plenty of the former with a few of Maru’s WC exits
Hey Maru has plenty of his clutch moments too don’t get me wrong, I’m just judging him by GOAT rather than regular standards.
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On April 16 2024 20:08 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2024 17:49 ejozl wrote:
Yes, Maru can tilt very quickly. Serral is also an emotional player. And from memory, innovation and rogue tilt as well. Funnily enough, I think the kong, SoO actually has a very strong fight-back mentality Now that’s a hot take right there! Although to some degree I do think a Kong can also be pretty clutch too! Hell a player who’s never won a big tournament, or ever will, but always punches above their usual results when it comes to a Blizzcon can I think be said to be very good on the mentality side. I definitely give Serral the edge over Maru here at least. Not that he’s invincible or never has a bad day, but when he does lose it’s often tight and he’s usually playing his game and it doesn’t quite work out. Whereas Maru’s biggest flubs on the big stage are when he’s not playing his game, and making atypical decisions and whatnot. When Reynor made that comeback or Oliveira won his WC it wasn’t that they were playing out of their minds (although very well), but that Maru didn’t play his usual/made terrible build choices under pressure. I guess to me the difference between a choke, or a throw is when your fans are going ‘noooo why did you do this person I was rooting for?’ Whereas if they just get outplayed on the day it’ll be a mix of ‘fair play x wa better’ plus of course lots of balance whine! Plenty of the former with a few of Maru’s WC exits Hey Maru has plenty of his clutch moments too don’t get me wrong, I’m just judging him by GOAT rather than regular standards.
This what it triggers me a little, people often refers to the massive Maru throw against Olivera in Katowice, but fails to acknowledge how tilt and frustrated Serral was when he lost against Ragnarok in the very same tournament but in the quarterfinals.
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On April 16 2024 20:23 Argonauta wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2024 20:08 WombaT wrote:On April 16 2024 17:49 ejozl wrote:
Yes, Maru can tilt very quickly. Serral is also an emotional player. And from memory, innovation and rogue tilt as well. Funnily enough, I think the kong, SoO actually has a very strong fight-back mentality Now that’s a hot take right there! Although to some degree I do think a Kong can also be pretty clutch too! Hell a player who’s never won a big tournament, or ever will, but always punches above their usual results when it comes to a Blizzcon can I think be said to be very good on the mentality side. I definitely give Serral the edge over Maru here at least. Not that he’s invincible or never has a bad day, but when he does lose it’s often tight and he’s usually playing his game and it doesn’t quite work out. Whereas Maru’s biggest flubs on the big stage are when he’s not playing his game, and making atypical decisions and whatnot. When Reynor made that comeback or Oliveira won his WC it wasn’t that they were playing out of their minds (although very well), but that Maru didn’t play his usual/made terrible build choices under pressure. I guess to me the difference between a choke, or a throw is when your fans are going ‘noooo why did you do this person I was rooting for?’ Whereas if they just get outplayed on the day it’ll be a mix of ‘fair play x wa better’ plus of course lots of balance whine! Plenty of the former with a few of Maru’s WC exits Hey Maru has plenty of his clutch moments too don’t get me wrong, I’m just judging him by GOAT rather than regular standards. This what it triggers me a little, people often refers to the massive Maru throw against Olivera in Katowice, but fails to acknowledge how tilt and frustrated Serral was when he lost against Ragnarok in the very same tournament but in the quarterfinals.
I guess because Maru had this kind of performance (or lack thereof) pretty regular while for Serral this is the absolute exception. Maru even has had an alter ego for this named Mary
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Northern Ireland23759 Posts
On April 16 2024 20:23 Argonauta wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2024 20:08 WombaT wrote:On April 16 2024 17:49 ejozl wrote:
Yes, Maru can tilt very quickly. Serral is also an emotional player. And from memory, innovation and rogue tilt as well. Funnily enough, I think the kong, SoO actually has a very strong fight-back mentality Now that’s a hot take right there! Although to some degree I do think a Kong can also be pretty clutch too! Hell a player who’s never won a big tournament, or ever will, but always punches above their usual results when it comes to a Blizzcon can I think be said to be very good on the mentality side. I definitely give Serral the edge over Maru here at least. Not that he’s invincible or never has a bad day, but when he does lose it’s often tight and he’s usually playing his game and it doesn’t quite work out. Whereas Maru’s biggest flubs on the big stage are when he’s not playing his game, and making atypical decisions and whatnot. When Reynor made that comeback or Oliveira won his WC it wasn’t that they were playing out of their minds (although very well), but that Maru didn’t play his usual/made terrible build choices under pressure. I guess to me the difference between a choke, or a throw is when your fans are going ‘noooo why did you do this person I was rooting for?’ Whereas if they just get outplayed on the day it’ll be a mix of ‘fair play x wa better’ plus of course lots of balance whine! Plenty of the former with a few of Maru’s WC exits Hey Maru has plenty of his clutch moments too don’t get me wrong, I’m just judging him by GOAT rather than regular standards. This what it triggers me a little, people often refers to the massive Maru throw against Olivera in Katowice, but fails to acknowledge how tilt and frustrated Serral was when he lost against Ragnarok in the very same tournament but in the quarterfinals.
Serral had to show this emotion or he would have legally been classified as an android and become property of the Finnish state.
I mean aye he was clearly a bit rattled and frustrated, equally I do think he still played alright, not peak Serral and lost a tight series. Whereas rattled Maru kind of loses in daft and frustrating ways by making bad calls, be it build choices or tactical in-game moves that he doesn’t normally do.
But not every loss is a choke either (see, soO). I wouldn’t consider Maru’s probably two biggest defeats of note in recent times, Rogue in GSL and Serral in Katowice to be evidence of a bad mentality. Rogue had the better gameplan and Maru couldn’t pivot enough. Serral played very well and had prepped very well, and together they probably played the game of the year from a pure quality of StarCraft standpoint. Map balance aside it was a phenomenal display from them both. I don’t think I can say Maru didn’t turn up given IMO that was probably the best game played in a losing cause all year, at least in a high-stakes tourney
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The copium from Serral fans is hilarious.
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On April 16 2024 21:20 Pentarp wrote:
The copium from Serral fans is hilarious.
And what might you be refering too exactly?
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On April 16 2024 20:31 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2024 20:23 Argonauta wrote:On April 16 2024 20:08 WombaT wrote:On April 16 2024 17:49 ejozl wrote:
Yes, Maru can tilt very quickly. Serral is also an emotional player. And from memory, innovation and rogue tilt as well. Funnily enough, I think the kong, SoO actually has a very strong fight-back mentality Now that’s a hot take right there! Although to some degree I do think a Kong can also be pretty clutch too! Hell a player who’s never won a big tournament, or ever will, but always punches above their usual results when it comes to a Blizzcon can I think be said to be very good on the mentality side. I definitely give Serral the edge over Maru here at least. Not that he’s invincible or never has a bad day, but when he does lose it’s often tight and he’s usually playing his game and it doesn’t quite work out. Whereas Maru’s biggest flubs on the big stage are when he’s not playing his game, and making atypical decisions and whatnot. When Reynor made that comeback or Oliveira won his WC it wasn’t that they were playing out of their minds (although very well), but that Maru didn’t play his usual/made terrible build choices under pressure. I guess to me the difference between a choke, or a throw is when your fans are going ‘noooo why did you do this person I was rooting for?’ Whereas if they just get outplayed on the day it’ll be a mix of ‘fair play x wa better’ plus of course lots of balance whine! Plenty of the former with a few of Maru’s WC exits Hey Maru has plenty of his clutch moments too don’t get me wrong, I’m just judging him by GOAT rather than regular standards. This what it triggers me a little, people often refers to the massive Maru throw against Olivera in Katowice, but fails to acknowledge how tilt and frustrated Serral was when he lost against Ragnarok in the very same tournament but in the quarterfinals. I guess because Maru had this kind of performance (or lack thereof) pretty regular while for Serral this is the absolute exception. Maru even has had an alter ego for this named Mary
It just appears more regular because he has a longer career
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EPT
