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Argonauta
Spain4902 Posts
On March 24 2024 08:41 Mmakorea wrote: Yes no one mentioned Maru as the best terran in any period of time pre 2018. It’s just a nickname the fanbase use to boost their fav Maru Minute 1:02 | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15867 Posts
On March 24 2024 18:07 Argonauta wrote: Minute 1:02 https://youtu.be/FZmrSiNvxgQ?si=F_kkNjIcNalo2ZU4&t=62 Impressed you went through the hassle of finding this clip just to prove one hater wrong who's obviously arguing in bad faith inb4 the casters are also fanboys who want to boost their fav Maru | ||
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Comedy
451 Posts
On March 24 2024 18:07 Argonauta wrote: Minute 1:02 https://youtu.be/FZmrSiNvxgQ?si=F_kkNjIcNalo2ZU4&t=62 Lol good catch. I guess during that little stretch where he played that famous final at IEM Taipei vs Life and then won SSL directly after, he had a decent argument to be the best terran for a month or 2 pre-2018. Too bad it was very short lived and for all of 2015 those are his only results other than a top4 in code s at the end of the year. He then did nothing in 2016 and 2017 also besides a top2 at wesg and a top4 at gsl losing to gumiho. | ||
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Argonauta
Spain4902 Posts
On March 24 2024 19:03 Charoisaur wrote: Impressed you went through the hassle of finding this clip just to prove one hater wrong who's obviously arguing in bad faith inb4 the casters are also fanboys who want to boost their fav Maru hahaha! Lazy Sunday morning.. what can I say.... On March 24 2024 20:25 Comedy wrote: Lol good catch. I guess during that little stretch where he played that famous final at IEM Taipei vs Life and then won SSL directly after, he had a decent argument to be the best terran for a month or 2 pre-2018. Too bad it was very short lived and for all of 2015 those are his only results other than a top4 in code s at the end of the year. He then did nothing in 2016 and 2017 also besides a top2 at wesg and a top4 at gsl losing to gumiho. In my opinion, the current stretches of dominance we see nowadays are a product of two things, a much shallower competition than in 2013-2016 and more sparser tournaments (so there is no new data points to reevaluate the power relation between players). So, short-lived periods of dominance in peak HOTS I would say are comparable to much longer periods of dominance nowadays. | ||
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Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
On March 24 2024 19:03 Charoisaur wrote: Impressed you went through the hassle of finding this clip just to prove one hater wrong who's obviously arguing in bad faith inb4 the casters are also fanboys who want to boost their fav Maru Wait, does the anti-Maru detachment also whine about "biased casters"? I've only heard the anti-Serral ones do that. | ||
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Cricketer12
United States13959 Posts
On March 24 2024 00:42 Balnazza wrote: It wasn't? What did they call the main White Walker in the book? ...is there even a "main White Walker"? Anyway. Of course you can re-use nicknames, especially over different games. It just feels like there is such a big discrepancy between Moon and Maru when it comes to how fitting the name is. I will admit though: I am right now extremly pissed that Maru isn't Protoss. "Marude Psistorm" would have been such a great nickname... Among all the coal in this tread we unearthed a diamond | ||
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LostUsername100
85 Posts
On March 24 2024 21:09 Argonauta wrote: hahaha! Lazy Sunday morning.. what can I say.... In my opinion, the current stretches of dominance we see nowadays are a product of two things, a much shallower competition than in 2013-2016 and more sparser tournaments (so there is no new data points to reevaluate the power relation between players). So, short-lived periods of dominance in peak HOTS I would say are comparable to much longer periods of dominance nowadays. There's a strong argument that Korean tournaments were a lot harder back in the day, but like world finals probably wouldn't be much harder than what they are now, it's not like the Korean players that retired were much superior (if at all) to what Serral keeps dunking on. | ||
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darklycid
3371 Posts
On March 24 2024 22:15 LostUsername100 wrote: There's a strong argument that Korean tournaments were a lot harder back in the day, but like world finals probably wouldn't be much harder than what they are now, it's not like the Korean players that retired were much superior (if at all) to what Serral keeps dunking on. Korean tournaments were harder than world finals tho back then which is the big thing, they were way more competitive and while the absolute skill level went up massively since then you dont know about the relative skill level. | ||
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Creager
Germany1884 Posts
On March 24 2024 22:15 LostUsername100 wrote: There's a strong argument that Korean tournaments were a lot harder back in the day, but like world finals probably wouldn't be much harder than what they are now, it's not like the Korean players that retired were much superior (if at all) to what Serral keeps dunking on. Just to make sure not to take away anything from Serral, as he's just a phenomenal player, but let's pretend he came up during the fiercer eras of competition in Korea, I strongly believe that teams would have trained specifically to beat this guy both in team- and individual leagues and chances are fair there would have been a handful of kryptonite builds prepared specifically for him, I think he would have been less dominant overall, but now with the rather small pool of overall remaining players, esp Korea's SC2 pro scene in shambles, the gap seems to be artificially-widened due to little to no influx of new players. | ||
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necrosexy
451 Posts
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johnnyh123
85 Posts
When Maru first started playing in 2010~12, I basically thought of him as "MKP Jr.", cheesy and aggressive but super fun to watch. MKP retired pretty early and I was a bit doubtful that Maru could take over the baton, but he did a lot better than I could ever expect. Though he might not be the best player today (losing 0-4 to Serral at Katowice), I agree that he is the GOAT with his longevity (winning for more than a decade), ability to defy fate in terrain-disadvantaged eras (the 4th race), ability to captivate the audience to watch the game (he was one of the key reasons I kept watching SC2 during periods/trajectories of a downward trend for the game), and his humility (shows through so many of his interviews). Really sad that the pro scene is at a terrible place rn, but hoping for some change of biz structure and new supporters (Saudi +?), so we can see a few more years of this great player competing and perhaps solidifying his GOAT status further - winning at an IEM world championship (if we have one of those next year). Thanks, Miz, for the detailed write-up! Nice to read it all and relive those exciting days. | ||
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Pentarp
206 Posts
On March 24 2024 20:25 Comedy wrote: Lol good catch. I guess during that little stretch where he played that famous final at IEM Taipei vs Life and then won SSL directly after, he had a decent argument to be the best terran for a month or 2 pre-2018. Too bad it was very short lived and for all of 2015 those are his only results other than a top4 in code s at the end of the year. He then did nothing in 2016 and 2017 also besides a top2 at wesg and a top4 at gsl losing to gumiho. Only top4 at GSL when the competition in Korea was fierce is a respectable accomplishment. Runner-up WESG also great result. Sounds like just nitpicking at this point. Maru doesn't have to win everything for a decade to be considered a GOAT over Serral. | ||
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UglyGnu
5 Posts
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Cricketer12
United States13959 Posts
On April 09 2024 07:33 UglyGnu wrote: Unbelieveable that this triggers me so much. I am not even such a big Serral fanboy. But almost 15 years here i never disagreed something so from my heart. I mean look at aligulac and compare Maru and Serral. This really feels disrespectful to the finnish Phenom... Oh fuck Miz. You triggered UglyGnu. How could you. | ||
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UglyGnu
5 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland23759 Posts
On April 09 2024 07:48 UglyGnu wrote: Enough to register an account after all this years... What is your opinion about that? You compared them on aligulac? Aligulac is fraught with problems, even those who conceived it concede them. Personally Serral gets my vote but others have a very good claim too. | ||
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LostUsername100
85 Posts
On April 09 2024 07:56 WombaT wrote: Aligulac is fraught with problems, even those who conceived it concede them. Personally Serral gets my vote but others have a very good claim too. What are those problems? How would you improve Aligulac accuracy? | ||
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JJH777
United States4376 Posts
On April 09 2024 08:47 LostUsername100 wrote: What are those problems? How would you improve Aligulac accuracy? Make it so points are only awarded/taken away for the matchup you actually played. Get rid of the overall rating (can still keep an average rating column which is all the overall rating should be anyways, no clue why they tried to make it something else). Lower the number of points you get for beating someone when the point gap is past a certain percentage threshold, effectively making it near 0 when the gap is big enough. That would improve it significantly. I know the latter is already done but I don't think it's severe enough as shown by Serral claiming #1 in 2017 when he was still <50% vs Koreans. Still wouldn't be perfect, no ELO system is. SC2 is especially hard because top players were split in 3 different circuits that barely had any cross over for most of the games life. Plus the volatility of PvP has always resulted in Toss players being underrated even at times where Toss was clearly the best race they usually didn't dominate aligulac. Though my first suggestion would help with that quite a bit. | ||
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ejozl
Denmark3327 Posts
On March 20 2024 12:39 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Wow great points from both of you! I felt similarly, I wouldn't value team league performance super highly because it's... a team victory! For example, just because 1 player racks up lots of ace match wins doesn't necessarily mean that they deserve the credit as an individual. You never know if the teammates/coach simply focused on helping 1 player over another, in order to strategize the best way to win. But I wasn't able to realize that Maru not being able to get the same kind of support may be part of why he's weaker at weekender tournies, and the double whammy that when he's against Rogue/sOs, he's fighting the same people who'd help him prep. I also agree with the point that while preparation tournaments can in ways lead to the "highest level of SC2 play" being shown, in the end it's all relative to the opponents. Weekenders and prep tournaments are simply different formats, everyone is playing in the same format. You could say that having a whole week to prep for an opponent leads to more polished play and more carefully selected strategies, sure. But you can also say that being able to consistently win weekender tournaments where you have much less time to prepare and are forced in much more uncomfortable situations, is much more impressive than having a ton of time to prepare for each match. And if you're able to somehow be consistent in those, whether you're great at improving, or just have so much experience that you're familiar with more situations than others, or just so good at prepping that you can do so in such a condensed format. This is part of why I think players like Taeja winning so so many weekender tournaments where other top players would drown in pools is being so undervalued by people in recent years, whereas back in HotS it was common opinion that he ranked very highly on the GOAT list. More prep time leads to the better players winning more consistently, with the caveat that they could get sniped by a well prepared build sure. However, if you're able to consistently win weekender tournaments with much less prep time, then that's really impressive. There is evidence of players who were great at prep tournaments doing poorly in weekender events, too - for example Nestea. Won 3 Code S, but didn't do very well at tournaments like Iron Squid. Maru is another. There is enough evidence that prep tournaments are not necessarily "harder" than weekender tournaments. They are just different formats and it makes sense that different players excel at different formats. I've had this feeling as well that Maru has benefited greatly from the Jin Air crew, though his success continues to today, so it might not be true. But a team of Rogue, sOs and Maru definitely seems a powerful team for preparation based tournaments for all involved. It was the same in the beginning of WoL with NesteA and MVP on the same team, it seems they were just leagues ahead on how to think about the game. On March 21 2024 03:43 WombaT wrote: I mean I don’t think it’s impossible Serral wouldn’t have won GSL if he’d been competing there for 6 years, but equally it’s not impossible that I’d woo and marry Sofia Vegata either. It may be that his environment and work/life balance given his chosen path are just ideal for the guy, but there’s even the frankly terrifying possibility that a Serral forged in the fires of Korea is even stronger. Firstly Serral has the best win rate versus Korean opposition ever, and by a decent enough margin. Secondly, he generally is only playing the GSL players towards the upper end, good enough to qualify for the big competitions. If he was regularly playing the lower tiers of Korean pros in GSL it’d be even higher. Looking at his head-to-head match win rates solely against GSL winners/finalists in this span: Maru - 77% Trap - 82% Dark - 65% Cure - 90% TY - 71% Rogue - 53% Zest - 73% Classic - 80% Stats - 69% While I think people go crazy overboard and say ridiculous things like Serral would sweep it every season or w/e, it’s almost inconceivable to me that he wouldn’t take even one. Even Reynor who is way more streaky and IMO not quite on the same tier I think would probably pull it off at least once. As a big fan of the game overall, novelty, a huge fan of the GSL and what it’s given over the years it’s absolutely one of my biggest disappointments that getting a few foreigners who could potentially actually win it is accompanied by those said same not playing it regularly. I wonder who would have the bigger shot, Serral taking a GSL, or Maru taking a WCS. On March 21 2024 23:38 Mizenhauer wrote: Dominance was not the best word choice (something in the vein of superiority or a catch all like "tier one player" fits better). It's fair to say, however, that he outperformed pretty much everyone outside of a group of ten or so player with which he was relatively even. Where he fell within that group is harder to figure out than the GOAT rankings, if I'm being honest. And, yes, balance actually was ridiculous in 2014. There are a large number of people who discredit Serral's achievements because Zerg was good (one of the stupidest things I've ever heard). Maru never won Code S in 2014, but you can't look at the top 16 of Season 1 and 2 in good faith and say there's nothing ridiculous going on as far as Terran representation. ![[image loading]](/staff/Mizenhauer/Season_1.jpg) ![[image loading]](/staff/Mizenhauer/Season_2.jpg) It's hard to know how much balance is weighted in this, there is mention of BL/Inf in WoL and Infested Terrans (LotV) and now this about Terran being underpowered vs. Protoss. How much does this affect Serral, Rogue and Dark in the ranking? IMO it's better not to think about, or you would have to go into it all the way. For instance, and I mean this in earnest, you could argue that from 2018 Protoss have been non-existence, and so this actually hugely impacts the integrity of this time. How competitive is it rly, when a 3rd of the player base is made irrelevant barring a short time on the last few patches by Blizzard, before the cabal seized control. Then we also have the #4 MVP which is strange when he only dominated a 1 year period and one where Terran was strongest and benefiting from being a TvT specialist. Rain only fairing well in the Protoss golden age etc.. On March 23 2024 04:12 Balnazza wrote: No, I used those numbers because I actually have those numbers at hand, since I keep a record of Premier events finals participations. If you have a problem with the European Regional Finals being classified as "Premier events", please take that up with the Liquipedia-Admins. But then again, going by Prizepool alone it would make much more sense to strike GSL out of that Tier, but anyway. Ppl totally dismiss the WCS titles which is not fair, because let's say that Serral didn't manage to win a single one, then that would absolutely be used against him! I think the HSCs that he won, can almost entirely be dismissed because these were invite tournaments, unlike many other HSCs. These tournaments were what put Serral as the favourite to win the very first GSL vs. the World that he entered. Rightly you could say that he hadn't proven himself yet, but it was very evident to see in the level of play alone that he was playing at another level from even the Koreans. On March 23 2024 06:41 Pentarp wrote: 7 GSLS. The ONLY one in the entire world to have a G5L trophy. This is really the argument for Maru. If you see sc2 as an extension of sc1 and thus have this belief that in historical context all that matters are Korean preparation based tournaments, then yes, he can be #1 and Serral was never even in the race to begin with. If your sense of history starts from sc2, then weekend style tournaments would probably be seen as the common style tournament and thus, Korean tournaments should not be put on a pedestal. On March 24 2024 09:23 Amoyu7 wrote: I second the opinion that Serral's nickname absolutely sucks. I died a little inside every time I heard "The Finnisher" Chinese sc2 fans had a fantastic nickname for Serral tho: "The Overmind". Because they think Serral's scouting, control and multitasking are so good it feels like he's just directly controlling every Zerg units with shared hivemind like the Overmind itself. Every time Serral got defeated and comeback stronger, they joke that the Overmind was just temporarily back to the Evolve Chamber. It should be the default nickname for Serral. The finnish phenom is a great name, but it belongs to Welmu. I like Serral Angel. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland23759 Posts
On April 09 2024 08:47 LostUsername100 wrote: What are those problems? How would you improve Aligulac accuracy? I don’t think there is a way to account for separate regions and differentiate between tournaments of various levels of prestige and things like online cups and bigger offline tournies. Also general rating inflation. It’s no criticism of Aligulac I mean I really don’t feel there is a a way to accurately account for the intangibles of the SC2 scene via any kind of ELO or ELO-influenced methodology. It’s still great for many things as a database and predictor MaxPax is currently the second best player in the world via Aligulac, if that doesn’t illustrate some of the issues with Aligulac ratings I’m not sure what does | ||
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