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On March 23 2024 04:40 PremoBeats wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2024 02:59 Mmakorea wrote:
Finally finished reading all 10 articles. Fun list even though there are lots of questionable choices
Not sure why all the heated debates are going on. At the end of the day it’s ONE person’s opinion (even though it’s in the minority)
His opinion literally holds the same weight as someone who make their own list and say Zest is the goat
Just have fun with it.
Thanks OP for taking the time to write these article and help kill some down time One can argue over inconsistencies in regards to the criteria within the logic the writer used. For example: a. When you say at one time that it was a super close call between Serral and Maru how - at the same time - can you say that IEM 2024 would not make a difference? Or put differently: How many more tournaments, in which both players are active, need to be played to tilt the scale in Serral's favor if IEM was not enough, but both are supposedly close in the GOAT debate? b. Then there is the argumentation of longevity versus peak performance. In MVP's article it is described that he placed above Innovation because he was so dominant, even if not for long. On the contrary in Maru's article, it is stated that Serral has higher peak performances but Maru is hailed for his "otherworldly longevity". If you want to stay consistent, you have to choose between one, but cannot switch based on the player you like better, as it seems to be the case here. Defining criteria is fine... but you have to stick to them, otherwise the whole endeavor is arbitrary. But I agree. It is one person's opinion. But that doesn't stop me from voicing mine either  And I think the author raises valid points for Maru's GOAT status, don't get me wrong. It was also nice to dwell in nostalgia while reading through the well written essays. But it is also the case that one's reasoning when establishing such a list should be on point, otherwise the scent of arbitrary metrics is too strong. I, for example, looked at the following metrics to have people as GOAT contenders and only one of them had to be achieved to play a role in my further analysis: 1. Minimum 4 years of having a an over 60% win rate versus top Korean players (to accommodate for longevity) 2. Having won at least 10 Premier Tournaments (Also longevity but also the skill to persist and win) 3. Having at least won 2 World Championships (As the highest peak where the best of the world congregate) These metrics can be fulfilled by every player who plays a role internationally and they were the entrance point to my evaluation. I further looked (only against top Korean competition to prevent people from claiming that non Koreans had it easier) at longest winning streaks, peak win rates, amount of peak win rates, win records of top contenders versus top Koreans and versus each other. These win rates/streaks were adjusted (meaning I took the win rates versus Koreans and added the respective player's win rate versus Serral, as he was also compared to everyone else) to include the only non Korean player in the list, which is Serral. And the evaluation of the raw data was pretty obvious. By any standard metric that can be applied to every player who plays internationally, Serral is the best. - He is one of two players to achieve the Triple Crown twice (Only MVP achieved the same) - He has the highest win rate vs top Korean players in 5 years out of 13 StarCraft2 years (2018, 2019, 2020, 2022, 2023) - by far the most dominant - In three out of these years (2018, 2020, 2023) he achieved an over 85% (!!) match win rate vs Koreans. No other player ever came over 79%. Maru is 2nd at 78%, Serral 3rd at 76,76% and herO fourth with 74%. The win rates of Serral outperform those of Flash in his most dominant years. - In 2023 his game win rate is 73,24% making him the only player to ever break the 70% game win rate barrier... 2nd closest is Serral with 69,86% and Maru 3rd with 69,44%. - Serral holds the longest winning streak against top Koreans (19 consecutive wins 17th of May 2023 till 3rd of August 2023; 2nd place also Serral with 18 consecutive wins from 4th of August 2018 till 1st of May 2019) - Serral, among two others, won the most World Championships - Serral has the most Premier Tournaments wins with top Korean Participation (16) and he achieved this in 6 years, whereas it took Maru 10 years to accumulate 15, although GSL is 3 times per year. But the most amazing feat I encountered while analyzing the data: - Serral has NO negative win rate vs ANY pro player since his first Premier Tournament win in 2015 which he played on a regular basis (at least 10 games) - which no one else ever achieved. This stat is absolutely incredible and I cannot emphasize how much Serral distances the competition. But here are his stats versus the other contenders and other respected players: vs Maru: 14:4:2 vs Dark: 9:5:1 vs GuMiho: 10:4:0 vs Solar: 16:7:1 vs Cure: 17:3:0 vs ByuN: 12:5:0 vs Classic: 8:2:0 vs Bunny: 9:2:0 vs stats: 9:4:0 vs soO: 8:4:0 vs Innovation: 16:8:0 vs Rogue: 8:6:0 vs Trap: 14:3:0 vs Zest: 10:5:0 vs Reynor: 31:16:0 vs MaxPax: 18:4:0 vs Heromarine: 26:4:0 Now there are softer things that need consideration like eras, competition, impact, resilience to patches, etc and I think the author did a pretty fair job at evaluating these. But to me, it comes down to two things. First, Maru's inability to conquer the World Championship. Yes, he accomplished phenomenal feats in GSL, StarLeague and the other grand Korean Tournaments, but he never delivered when it everyone from around the world gathered. Second, the peak dominance. Serral's stats are simply nuts... his win rates, tournament wins and the time in which he did it (only 6 years) is absolutely terrifying and excels EVERY OTHER player on this list in EVERY aspect. And it is not like Serral never played the top contenders from the past. Zest, Innovation, stats, Trap, Cure, Solar, Dark, herO, Maru, Byun are all names that were also active in the peak era of 2013-2015 and that Serral faced multiple times. Plus there are players like Clem, Reynor, MaxPax that older players haven't faced so the argument goes both ways. Anyways, these are my two cents on this issue.
Thank you for that. I have enphazied Serral's head 2 head win vs ALL in other posts. Its absurd.
The only thing Maru has against Serral is basically having won 2 premiers in Korean soil prior to 2017.
All the 7 GSLs simply dont count, cus Serral wanst there (when comparing just the 2 of them).
You just cant say that Maru is greater in SCII than Serral, you just cant.
Serrral graduated from School in june 2017... We know what came after.
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On March 23 2024 07:33 Locutos wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2024 04:40 PremoBeats wrote:On March 23 2024 02:59 Mmakorea wrote:
Finally finished reading all 10 articles. Fun list even though there are lots of questionable choices
Not sure why all the heated debates are going on. At the end of the day it’s ONE person’s opinion (even though it’s in the minority)
His opinion literally holds the same weight as someone who make their own list and say Zest is the goat
Just have fun with it.
Thanks OP for taking the time to write these article and help kill some down time One can argue over inconsistencies in regards to the criteria within the logic the writer used. For example: a. When you say at one time that it was a super close call between Serral and Maru how - at the same time - can you say that IEM 2024 would not make a difference? Or put differently: How many more tournaments, in which both players are active, need to be played to tilt the scale in Serral's favor if IEM was not enough, but both are supposedly close in the GOAT debate? b. Then there is the argumentation of longevity versus peak performance. In MVP's article it is described that he placed above Innovation because he was so dominant, even if not for long. On the contrary in Maru's article, it is stated that Serral has higher peak performances but Maru is hailed for his "otherworldly longevity". If you want to stay consistent, you have to choose between one, but cannot switch based on the player you like better, as it seems to be the case here. Defining criteria is fine... but you have to stick to them, otherwise the whole endeavor is arbitrary. But I agree. It is one person's opinion. But that doesn't stop me from voicing mine either And I think the author raises valid points for Maru's GOAT status, don't get me wrong. It was also nice to dwell in nostalgia while reading through the well written essays. But it is also the case that one's reasoning when establishing such a list should be on point, otherwise the scent of arbitrary metrics is too strong. I, for example, looked at the following metrics to have people as GOAT contenders and only one of them had to be achieved to play a role in my further analysis: 1. Minimum 4 years of having a an over 60% win rate versus top Korean players (to accommodate for longevity) 2. Having won at least 10 Premier Tournaments (Also longevity but also the skill to persist and win) 3. Having at least won 2 World Championships (As the highest peak where the best of the world congregate) These metrics can be fulfilled by every player who plays a role internationally and they were the entrance point to my evaluation. I further looked (only against top Korean competition to prevent people from claiming that non Koreans had it easier) at longest winning streaks, peak win rates, amount of peak win rates, win records of top contenders versus top Koreans and versus each other. These win rates/streaks were adjusted (meaning I took the win rates versus Koreans and added the respective player's win rate versus Serral, as he was also compared to everyone else) to include the only non Korean player in the list, which is Serral. And the evaluation of the raw data was pretty obvious. By any standard metric that can be applied to every player who plays internationally, Serral is the best. - He is one of two players to achieve the Triple Crown twice (Only MVP achieved the same) - He has the highest win rate vs top Korean players in 5 years out of 13 StarCraft2 years (2018, 2019, 2020, 2022, 2023) - by far the most dominant - In three out of these years (2018, 2020, 2023) he achieved an over 85% (!!) match win rate vs Koreans. No other player ever came over 79%. Maru is 2nd at 78%, Serral 3rd at 76,76% and herO fourth with 74%. The win rates of Serral outperform those of Flash in his most dominant years. - In 2023 his game win rate is 73,24% making him the only player to ever break the 70% game win rate barrier... 2nd closest is Serral with 69,86% and Maru 3rd with 69,44%. - Serral holds the longest winning streak against top Koreans (19 consecutive wins 17th of May 2023 till 3rd of August 2023; 2nd place also Serral with 18 consecutive wins from 4th of August 2018 till 1st of May 2019) - Serral, among two others, won the most World Championships - Serral has the most Premier Tournaments wins with top Korean Participation (16) and he achieved this in 6 years, whereas it took Maru 10 years to accumulate 15, although GSL is 3 times per year. But the most amazing feat I encountered while analyzing the data: - Serral has NO negative win rate vs ANY pro player since his first Premier Tournament win in 2015 which he played on a regular basis (at least 10 games) - which no one else ever achieved. This stat is absolutely incredible and I cannot emphasize how much Serral distances the competition. But here are his stats versus the other contenders and other respected players: vs Maru: 14:4:2 vs Dark: 9:5:1 vs GuMiho: 10:4:0 vs Solar: 16:7:1 vs Cure: 17:3:0 vs ByuN: 12:5:0 vs Classic: 8:2:0 vs Bunny: 9:2:0 vs stats: 9:4:0 vs soO: 8:4:0 vs Innovation: 16:8:0 vs Rogue: 8:6:0 vs Trap: 14:3:0 vs Zest: 10:5:0 vs Reynor: 31:16:0 vs MaxPax: 18:4:0 vs Heromarine: 26:4:0 Now there are softer things that need consideration like eras, competition, impact, resilience to patches, etc and I think the author did a pretty fair job at evaluating these. But to me, it comes down to two things. First, Maru's inability to conquer the World Championship. Yes, he accomplished phenomenal feats in GSL, StarLeague and the other grand Korean Tournaments, but he never delivered when it everyone from around the world gathered. Second, the peak dominance. Serral's stats are simply nuts... his win rates, tournament wins and the time in which he did it (only 6 years) is absolutely terrifying and excels EVERY OTHER player on this list in EVERY aspect. And it is not like Serral never played the top contenders from the past. Zest, Innovation, stats, Trap, Cure, Solar, Dark, herO, Maru, Byun are all names that were also active in the peak era of 2013-2015 and that Serral faced multiple times. Plus there are players like Clem, Reynor, MaxPax that older players haven't faced so the argument goes both ways. Anyways, these are my two cents on this issue. Thank you for that. I have enphazied Serral's head 2 head win vs ALL in other posts. Its absurd. The only thing Maru has against Serral is basically having won 2 premiers in Korean soil prior to 2017. All the 7 GSLs simply dont count, cus Serral wanst there (when comparing just the 2 of them). You just cant say that Maru is greater in SCII than Serral, you just cant. Serrral graduated from School in june 2017... We know what came after.
2 Korean Premier prior to that (in how many participated??) just dont justify calling Maru > Serral.
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On March 23 2024 06:41 Pentarp wrote:
7 GSLS.
The ONLY one in the entire world to have a G5L trophy.
Wow. Did he get the piece of hardware already pre-forged for Mvp (or whom ever it was)? Last two are worth of effort, you know. Not much.
When Maruboys of Reddit side got finally triggered, This must be the place to play the personality card.
Who of those two you think would be the one who descends among us mere mortals and decide this shit for our behalf.
[unfortunately I have limited privileges on this Site, because I've broken some rules when drunken-fighting against corruption, so I cannot post a vid about the topic on behalf of my beloved wannabe Pig-farmer of the last century. Someone must do that instead of me. I'm one of most broken guys of Serral's Fan army, and also one of those who can defend or attack against an ego.]
Ultimately it comes down to the earth, and to a level of the person, values, insights, and philosophy, thinking, doing, living. A ton of hardware means a little. Statistics are always blind. Opinions and attitudes change. Takes are hot or cold, now and then, but they all will dissolve to a flows of the entropy of time and matter. Texts are written for a recent, but their most interested, loyal, and intellectual readers will be always found among those rare who microscope beyond a subtext, into the hazy letters of a palimpsest, written under the pergaments of dogma of the current hegemony, and it's thinking.
Moose hunting, log chopping, golf playing, self-made man with capability to feel the Zen, and be nice, humble guy to other human beings, from Pornainen, Finland, won't ever come here to say anything about this ongoing debate, but exactly because of that High-Quality of the character and his healthy ego, me and many of my more informed fellow fans, psychologically more coherent, more knowledgeable with better wit, and fitted with better understanding about how StarCraft 2 sociology functions on the edge, in it's entirety and as a whole, will form a camp here in this petty hill.
Don't expect easy war path. We all soldiers of Serral fan army, we are just place holders. Petty, mere mortals, insignificant place holders. 
glhf
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On March 23 2024 06:34 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2024 05:59 Durnuu wrote:On March 23 2024 05:36 Mmakorea wrote:On March 23 2024 04:40 PremoBeats wrote:On March 23 2024 02:59 Mmakorea wrote:
Finally finished reading all 10 articles. Fun list even though there are lots of questionable choices
Not sure why all the heated debates are going on. At the end of the day it’s ONE person’s opinion (even though it’s in the minority)
His opinion literally holds the same weight as someone who make their own list and say Zest is the goat
Just have fun with it.
Thanks OP for taking the time to write these article and help kill some down time One can argue over inconsistencies in regards to the criteria within the logic the writer used. For example: a. When you say at one time that it was a super close call between Serral and Maru how - at the same time - can you say that IEM 2024 would not make a difference? Or put differently: How many more tournaments, in which both players are active, need to be played to tilt the scale in Serral's favor if IEM was not enough, but both are supposedly close in the GOAT debate? b. Then there is the argumentation of longevity versus peak performance. In MVP's article it is described that he placed above Innovation because he was so dominant, even if not for long. On the contrary in Maru's article, it is stated that Serral has higher peak performances but Maru is hailed for his "otherworldly longevity". If you want to stay consistent, you have to choose between one, but cannot switch based on the player you like better, as it seems to be the case here. Defining criteria is fine... but you have to stick to them, otherwise the whole endeavor is arbitrary. But I agree. It is one person's opinion. But that doesn't stop me from voicing mine either And I think the author raises valid points for Maru's GOAT status, don't get me wrong. It was also nice to dwell in nostalgia while reading through the well written essays. But it is also the case that one's reasoning when establishing such a list should be on point, otherwise the scent of arbitrary metrics is too strong. I, for example, looked at the following metrics to have people as GOAT contenders and only one of them had to be achieved to play a role in my further analysis: 1. Minimum 4 years of having a an over 60% win rate versus top Korean players (to accommodate for longevity) 2. Having won at least 10 Premier Tournaments (Also longevity but also the skill to persist and win) 3. Having at least won 2 World Championships (As the highest peak where the best of the world congregate) These metrics can be fulfilled by every player who plays a role internationally and they were the entrance point to my evaluation. I further looked (only against top Korean competition to prevent people from claiming that non Koreans had it easier) at longest winning streaks, peak win rates, amount of peak win rates, win records of top contenders versus top Koreans and versus each other. These win rates/streaks were adjusted (meaning I took the win rates versus Koreans and added the respective player's win rate versus Serral, as he was also compared to everyone else) to include the only non Korean player in the list, which is Serral. And the evaluation of the raw data was pretty obvious. By any standard metric that can be applied to every player who plays internationally, Serral is the best. - He is one of two players to achieve the Triple Crown twice (Only MVP achieved the same) - He has the highest win rate vs top Korean players in 5 years out of 13 StarCraft2 years (2018, 2019, 2020, 2022, 2023) - by far the most dominant - In three out of these years (2018, 2020, 2023) he achieved an over 85% (!!) match win rate vs Koreans. No other player ever came over 79%. Maru is 2nd at 78%, Serral 3rd at 76,76% and herO fourth with 74%. The win rates of Serral outperform those of Flash in his most dominant years. - In 2023 his game win rate is 73,24% making him the only player to ever break the 70% game win rate barrier... 2nd closest is Serral with 69,86% and Maru 3rd with 69,44%. - Serral holds the longest winning streak against top Koreans (19 consecutive wins 17th of May 2023 till 3rd of August 2023; 2nd place also Serral with 18 consecutive wins from 4th of August 2018 till 1st of May 2019) - Serral, among two others, won the most World Championships - Serral has the most Premier Tournaments wins with top Korean Participation (16) and he achieved this in 6 years, whereas it took Maru 10 years to accumulate 15, although GSL is 3 times per year. But the most amazing feat I encountered while analyzing the data: - Serral has NO negative win rate vs ANY pro player since his first Premier Tournament win in 2015 which he played on a regular basis (at least 10 games) - which no one else ever achieved. This stat is absolutely incredible and I cannot emphasize how much Serral distances the competition. But here are his stats versus the other contenders and other respected players: vs Maru: 14:4:2 vs Dark: 9:5:1 vs GuMiho: 10:4:0 vs Solar: 16:7:1 vs Cure: 17:3:0 vs ByuN: 12:5:0 vs Classic: 8:2:0 vs Bunny: 9:2:0 vs stats: 9:4:0 vs soO: 8:4:0 vs Innovation: 16:8:0 vs Rogue: 8:6:0 vs Trap: 14:3:0 vs Zest: 10:5:0 vs Reynor: 31:16:0 vs MaxPax: 18:4:0 vs Heromarine: 26:4:0 Now there are softer things that need consideration like eras, competition, impact, resilience to patches, etc and I think the author did a pretty fair job at evaluating these. But to me, it comes down to two things. First, Maru's inability to conquer the World Championship. Yes, he accomplished phenomenal feats in GSL, StarLeague and the other grand Korean Tournaments, but he never delivered when it everyone from around the world gathered. Second, the peak dominance. Serral's stats are simply nuts... his win rates, tournament wins and the time in which he did it (only 6 years) is absolutely terrifying and excels EVERY OTHER player on this list in EVERY aspect. And it is not like Serral never played the top contenders from the past. Zest, Innovation, stats, Trap, Cure, Solar, Dark, herO, Maru, Byun are all names that were also active in the peak era of 2013-2015 and that Serral faced multiple times. Plus there are players like Clem, Reynor, MaxPax that older players haven't faced so the argument goes both ways. Anyways, these are my two cents on this issue. Thanks for taking the time to provide additional stats! It’s safe to say that the majority of the people do have Serral as the Goat. OP is just making his own case for Maru (which is fine) even though there are lots of inconsistencies in his approach like you mentioned. Personally to me, Maru was never the best player in any era that he played. MVP was better in WOL, Life and innovations achievements trumps Maru during the so called “hardest era of sc2”. Sure Maru won a SSL but that’s hardly newsworthy compare to his peers. Even Dear and Classic won GSL during that period. Lots of his peers has a better resume than Maru by the end of HOTS. LOTV era was basically all Serral and Rogue Now the only thing that Maru has is that he competed in “pro league”, but if you look at his record. It’s not that impressive at all. Again this is my own opinion, I really don’t value pro league high at all since it’s already proven to be a “match fixed league” (due to the convicted parties). Who knows which games are legit or not so I basically toss any result from that league out the window. Similar to how ppl want to say WCS doesn’t mean anything since Koreans were locked out from competing in it It’s doesn’t matter how much data and prove you provide to either the diehard fans of Maru and Serral. Nothing will change their goat opinion since it’s already cemented. You make it sound like the GSLs Dear and Classic won were any different to the OSL Maru won "Even Dear and Classic won GSL during that period." "Lots of his peers has a better resume than Maru by the end of HOTS." I'm pretty sure these 2 sentences are not referring to the same players. He mentioned Innovation and Life as having better achievements than Maru during HotS. He's exactly saying that because even players like Dear and Classic won GSL, Maru winning an OSL isn't that special.
Thank you for clarifying my statements
Maru OSL isn’t that special, it’s just annoying when their fans try to pump that title up. It holds the same weight as any other GSL that was won during that period aka Classic and Dears. It’s safe to say you can put 5-8 players having bettter resume than Maru during HoTS
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Is this an out-of-season April's Fool joke?
Maru before Serral ?
i need some of these drugs too please xD
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On March 23 2024 07:27 darklycid wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2024 06:34 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On March 23 2024 05:59 Durnuu wrote:On March 23 2024 05:36 Mmakorea wrote:On March 23 2024 04:40 PremoBeats wrote:On March 23 2024 02:59 Mmakorea wrote:
Finally finished reading all 10 articles. Fun list even though there are lots of questionable choices
Not sure why all the heated debates are going on. At the end of the day it’s ONE person’s opinion (even though it’s in the minority)
His opinion literally holds the same weight as someone who make their own list and say Zest is the goat
Just have fun with it.
Thanks OP for taking the time to write these article and help kill some down time One can argue over inconsistencies in regards to the criteria within the logic the writer used. For example: a. When you say at one time that it was a super close call between Serral and Maru how - at the same time - can you say that IEM 2024 would not make a difference? Or put differently: How many more tournaments, in which both players are active, need to be played to tilt the scale in Serral's favor if IEM was not enough, but both are supposedly close in the GOAT debate? b. Then there is the argumentation of longevity versus peak performance. In MVP's article it is described that he placed above Innovation because he was so dominant, even if not for long. On the contrary in Maru's article, it is stated that Serral has higher peak performances but Maru is hailed for his "otherworldly longevity". If you want to stay consistent, you have to choose between one, but cannot switch based on the player you like better, as it seems to be the case here. Defining criteria is fine... but you have to stick to them, otherwise the whole endeavor is arbitrary. But I agree. It is one person's opinion. But that doesn't stop me from voicing mine either And I think the author raises valid points for Maru's GOAT status, don't get me wrong. It was also nice to dwell in nostalgia while reading through the well written essays. But it is also the case that one's reasoning when establishing such a list should be on point, otherwise the scent of arbitrary metrics is too strong. I, for example, looked at the following metrics to have people as GOAT contenders and only one of them had to be achieved to play a role in my further analysis: 1. Minimum 4 years of having a an over 60% win rate versus top Korean players (to accommodate for longevity) 2. Having won at least 10 Premier Tournaments (Also longevity but also the skill to persist and win) 3. Having at least won 2 World Championships (As the highest peak where the best of the world congregate) These metrics can be fulfilled by every player who plays a role internationally and they were the entrance point to my evaluation. I further looked (only against top Korean competition to prevent people from claiming that non Koreans had it easier) at longest winning streaks, peak win rates, amount of peak win rates, win records of top contenders versus top Koreans and versus each other. These win rates/streaks were adjusted (meaning I took the win rates versus Koreans and added the respective player's win rate versus Serral, as he was also compared to everyone else) to include the only non Korean player in the list, which is Serral. And the evaluation of the raw data was pretty obvious. By any standard metric that can be applied to every player who plays internationally, Serral is the best. - He is one of two players to achieve the Triple Crown twice (Only MVP achieved the same) - He has the highest win rate vs top Korean players in 5 years out of 13 StarCraft2 years (2018, 2019, 2020, 2022, 2023) - by far the most dominant - In three out of these years (2018, 2020, 2023) he achieved an over 85% (!!) match win rate vs Koreans. No other player ever came over 79%. Maru is 2nd at 78%, Serral 3rd at 76,76% and herO fourth with 74%. The win rates of Serral outperform those of Flash in his most dominant years. - In 2023 his game win rate is 73,24% making him the only player to ever break the 70% game win rate barrier... 2nd closest is Serral with 69,86% and Maru 3rd with 69,44%. - Serral holds the longest winning streak against top Koreans (19 consecutive wins 17th of May 2023 till 3rd of August 2023; 2nd place also Serral with 18 consecutive wins from 4th of August 2018 till 1st of May 2019) - Serral, among two others, won the most World Championships - Serral has the most Premier Tournaments wins with top Korean Participation (16) and he achieved this in 6 years, whereas it took Maru 10 years to accumulate 15, although GSL is 3 times per year. But the most amazing feat I encountered while analyzing the data: - Serral has NO negative win rate vs ANY pro player since his first Premier Tournament win in 2015 which he played on a regular basis (at least 10 games) - which no one else ever achieved. This stat is absolutely incredible and I cannot emphasize how much Serral distances the competition. But here are his stats versus the other contenders and other respected players: vs Maru: 14:4:2 vs Dark: 9:5:1 vs GuMiho: 10:4:0 vs Solar: 16:7:1 vs Cure: 17:3:0 vs ByuN: 12:5:0 vs Classic: 8:2:0 vs Bunny: 9:2:0 vs stats: 9:4:0 vs soO: 8:4:0 vs Innovation: 16:8:0 vs Rogue: 8:6:0 vs Trap: 14:3:0 vs Zest: 10:5:0 vs Reynor: 31:16:0 vs MaxPax: 18:4:0 vs Heromarine: 26:4:0 Now there are softer things that need consideration like eras, competition, impact, resilience to patches, etc and I think the author did a pretty fair job at evaluating these. But to me, it comes down to two things. First, Maru's inability to conquer the World Championship. Yes, he accomplished phenomenal feats in GSL, StarLeague and the other grand Korean Tournaments, but he never delivered when it everyone from around the world gathered. Second, the peak dominance. Serral's stats are simply nuts... his win rates, tournament wins and the time in which he did it (only 6 years) is absolutely terrifying and excels EVERY OTHER player on this list in EVERY aspect. And it is not like Serral never played the top contenders from the past. Zest, Innovation, stats, Trap, Cure, Solar, Dark, herO, Maru, Byun are all names that were also active in the peak era of 2013-2015 and that Serral faced multiple times. Plus there are players like Clem, Reynor, MaxPax that older players haven't faced so the argument goes both ways. Anyways, these are my two cents on this issue. Thanks for taking the time to provide additional stats! It’s safe to say that the majority of the people do have Serral as the Goat. OP is just making his own case for Maru (which is fine) even though there are lots of inconsistencies in his approach like you mentioned. Personally to me, Maru was never the best player in any era that he played. MVP was better in WOL, Life and innovations achievements trumps Maru during the so called “hardest era of sc2”. Sure Maru won a SSL but that’s hardly newsworthy compare to his peers. Even Dear and Classic won GSL during that period. Lots of his peers has a better resume than Maru by the end of HOTS. LOTV era was basically all Serral and Rogue Now the only thing that Maru has is that he competed in “pro league”, but if you look at his record. It’s not that impressive at all. Again this is my own opinion, I really don’t value pro league high at all since it’s already proven to be a “match fixed league” (due to the convicted parties). Who knows which games are legit or not so I basically toss any result from that league out the window. Similar to how ppl want to say WCS doesn’t mean anything since Koreans were locked out from competing in it It’s doesn’t matter how much data and prove you provide to either the diehard fans of Maru and Serral. Nothing will change their goat opinion since it’s already cemented. You make it sound like the GSLs Dear and Classic won were any different to the OSL Maru won "Even Dear and Classic won GSL during that period." "Lots of his peers has a better resume than Maru by the end of HOTS." I'm pretty sure these 2 sentences are not referring to the same players. He mentioned Innovation and Life as having better achievements than Maru during HotS. He's exactly saying that because even players like Dear and Classic won GSL, Maru winning an OSL isn't that special. Yea man even Dear and classic those scrubs could win a gsl where one of them had one of the highest protoss peaks we've known until then and the other is one of the most overlooked protosses with actually really good achievements and surely a case for the upper echelons of protoss players.
I think you're misinterpreting and taking things a bit out of context xD
I didn't say or imply any of that, look at the comment I was clarifying. It wasn't about whether Dear/Classic has or doesn't have better achievements than Maru. It was simply that Mmakorea was saying Maru's OSL wasn't more special than others' KIL wins.
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On March 23 2024 07:33 Locutos wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2024 04:40 PremoBeats wrote:On March 23 2024 02:59 Mmakorea wrote:
Finally finished reading all 10 articles. Fun list even though there are lots of questionable choices
Not sure why all the heated debates are going on. At the end of the day it’s ONE person’s opinion (even though it’s in the minority)
His opinion literally holds the same weight as someone who make their own list and say Zest is the goat
Just have fun with it.
Thanks OP for taking the time to write these article and help kill some down time One can argue over inconsistencies in regards to the criteria within the logic the writer used. For example: a. When you say at one time that it was a super close call between Serral and Maru how - at the same time - can you say that IEM 2024 would not make a difference? Or put differently: How many more tournaments, in which both players are active, need to be played to tilt the scale in Serral's favor if IEM was not enough, but both are supposedly close in the GOAT debate? b. Then there is the argumentation of longevity versus peak performance. In MVP's article it is described that he placed above Innovation because he was so dominant, even if not for long. On the contrary in Maru's article, it is stated that Serral has higher peak performances but Maru is hailed for his "otherworldly longevity". If you want to stay consistent, you have to choose between one, but cannot switch based on the player you like better, as it seems to be the case here. Defining criteria is fine... but you have to stick to them, otherwise the whole endeavor is arbitrary. But I agree. It is one person's opinion. But that doesn't stop me from voicing mine either And I think the author raises valid points for Maru's GOAT status, don't get me wrong. It was also nice to dwell in nostalgia while reading through the well written essays. But it is also the case that one's reasoning when establishing such a list should be on point, otherwise the scent of arbitrary metrics is too strong. I, for example, looked at the following metrics to have people as GOAT contenders and only one of them had to be achieved to play a role in my further analysis: 1. Minimum 4 years of having a an over 60% win rate versus top Korean players (to accommodate for longevity) 2. Having won at least 10 Premier Tournaments (Also longevity but also the skill to persist and win) 3. Having at least won 2 World Championships (As the highest peak where the best of the world congregate) These metrics can be fulfilled by every player who plays a role internationally and they were the entrance point to my evaluation. I further looked (only against top Korean competition to prevent people from claiming that non Koreans had it easier) at longest winning streaks, peak win rates, amount of peak win rates, win records of top contenders versus top Koreans and versus each other. These win rates/streaks were adjusted (meaning I took the win rates versus Koreans and added the respective player's win rate versus Serral, as he was also compared to everyone else) to include the only non Korean player in the list, which is Serral. And the evaluation of the raw data was pretty obvious. By any standard metric that can be applied to every player who plays internationally, Serral is the best. - He is one of two players to achieve the Triple Crown twice (Only MVP achieved the same) - He has the highest win rate vs top Korean players in 5 years out of 13 StarCraft2 years (2018, 2019, 2020, 2022, 2023) - by far the most dominant - In three out of these years (2018, 2020, 2023) he achieved an over 85% (!!) match win rate vs Koreans. No other player ever came over 79%. Maru is 2nd at 78%, Serral 3rd at 76,76% and herO fourth with 74%. The win rates of Serral outperform those of Flash in his most dominant years. - In 2023 his game win rate is 73,24% making him the only player to ever break the 70% game win rate barrier... 2nd closest is Serral with 69,86% and Maru 3rd with 69,44%. - Serral holds the longest winning streak against top Koreans (19 consecutive wins 17th of May 2023 till 3rd of August 2023; 2nd place also Serral with 18 consecutive wins from 4th of August 2018 till 1st of May 2019) - Serral, among two others, won the most World Championships - Serral has the most Premier Tournaments wins with top Korean Participation (16) and he achieved this in 6 years, whereas it took Maru 10 years to accumulate 15, although GSL is 3 times per year. But the most amazing feat I encountered while analyzing the data: - Serral has NO negative win rate vs ANY pro player since his first Premier Tournament win in 2015 which he played on a regular basis (at least 10 games) - which no one else ever achieved. This stat is absolutely incredible and I cannot emphasize how much Serral distances the competition. But here are his stats versus the other contenders and other respected players: vs Maru: 14:4:2 vs Dark: 9:5:1 vs GuMiho: 10:4:0 vs Solar: 16:7:1 vs Cure: 17:3:0 vs ByuN: 12:5:0 vs Classic: 8:2:0 vs Bunny: 9:2:0 vs stats: 9:4:0 vs soO: 8:4:0 vs Innovation: 16:8:0 vs Rogue: 8:6:0 vs Trap: 14:3:0 vs Zest: 10:5:0 vs Reynor: 31:16:0 vs MaxPax: 18:4:0 vs Heromarine: 26:4:0 Now there are softer things that need consideration like eras, competition, impact, resilience to patches, etc and I think the author did a pretty fair job at evaluating these. But to me, it comes down to two things. First, Maru's inability to conquer the World Championship. Yes, he accomplished phenomenal feats in GSL, StarLeague and the other grand Korean Tournaments, but he never delivered when it everyone from around the world gathered. Second, the peak dominance. Serral's stats are simply nuts... his win rates, tournament wins and the time in which he did it (only 6 years) is absolutely terrifying and excels EVERY OTHER player on this list in EVERY aspect. And it is not like Serral never played the top contenders from the past. Zest, Innovation, stats, Trap, Cure, Solar, Dark, herO, Maru, Byun are all names that were also active in the peak era of 2013-2015 and that Serral faced multiple times. Plus there are players like Clem, Reynor, MaxPax that older players haven't faced so the argument goes both ways. Anyways, these are my two cents on this issue. Thank you for that. I have enphazied Serral's head 2 head win vs ALL in other posts. Its absurd. The only thing Maru has against Serral is basically having won 2 premiers in Korean soil prior to 2017. All the 7 GSLs simply dont count, cus Serral wanst there (when comparing just the 2 of them). You just cant say that Maru is greater in SCII than Serral, you just cant. Serrral graduated from School in june 2017... We know what came after.
Completely agree. The sheer dominance of Serral's statistics doesn't even only put him only at first place in many metrics. For example he occupies 5 of the 13 StarCraft II years in win rates versus top Korean players (2018, 2019, 2020 and 2023) and all of them are as well the 5 highest win rates EVER achieved.
I also never understood this whole "Serral never won GSL"-argument. Yes, we cannot know if Serral could have won a GSL for sure, it is a mere hypothetical according to his insane match win rates of sometimes over 85% versus the top Koreans. But what we know for a fact is, that Maru never won the World Championship despite trying several times. In my opinion it is crystal-clear that Serral would have easily conquered GSL and at the same time taken away trophies from other players who could now sport them. Or simply imagine Serral's dominance if he had the Korean infrastructure support. Team Houses, prize money, etc...
How anyone is able to call someone other than him GOAT is simply not understandable for me. You can make fair points for many people, but Serral has it all: Longevity, peak performance, having played many of the best of the peak era, World Championship titles, Premier Tournaments titles with top Korean participation, win rates, winning streaks and all of that, DESPITE being non Korean.. there is literally nothing he lacks in comparison to other players.
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On March 23 2024 07:30 Poopi wrote:
The most crazy thing though imo is the 4 GSL in a row, that’s a crazy feat especially as early as 2018-2019 where Terran wasn’t particularly strong. The most done in a row was 2, which is already impressive given how cut throat GSL was back in the days. TY was almost able to do three in a row but he did 2 in a year which is already a good feat, and even then he was relatively lucky to do it in 2020 short after Zerg nerfs / lots of TvT his best match-up.
The fact that every group (even those that are not labeled as group of death) in the GSL could eliminate a WC / GSL champion, like it happened to Rogue and so many others (or Reynor after he won WC…), is what makes the 4 victories in a row incredible.
Not only that, but Maru had to clutch a 4-3 victory against TvT master TY (present in this GOAT list at a very respectable spot) in an epic finals to even do 3 in a row.
And his 4th in a row was also impressive, because Classic was just murdering terrans left and right in this period iirc, with like 16w-1l record in the matchup.
Agreed, people say GSL isn't what it used to be and use that against Maru - while the statement is true now, back in '18-'19 the top Koreans (many of whom in the top 10 GOAT list) were very much still active. Rogue, Dark, Innovation, Classic, Zest, TY... were all chamionship level players back then. Maru's 4-peat then has been the most impressive accomplishment IMO of any SC2 player, particularly because Terran overall did not have an edge.
I've been watching some old games and plan to post a small collection of Maru games at some point. Two things come to mind during viewing:
1) I suffer from recency bias just like everyone else and have forgotten how good the old players were. Watch a game from '13 or '14, and it becomes obvious to me that the players were as good as those today. Current players have better adapted to the tools they have available now, but on a level playing field they are not necessarily *better*. There was also so much depth - plenty of talent among RO32 players.
2) Maru was lightning fast and has definitely slowed down in recent years. This is as expected as he ages, especially for Terran who bears a heavier burden when it comes to mechanics. But watching him play Terran like Zerg was mesmerizing and remind you why he was called the Fourth Race.
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On March 23 2024 15:15 PremoBeats wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2024 07:33 Locutos wrote:On March 23 2024 04:40 PremoBeats wrote:On March 23 2024 02:59 Mmakorea wrote:
Finally finished reading all 10 articles. Fun list even though there are lots of questionable choices
Not sure why all the heated debates are going on. At the end of the day it’s ONE person’s opinion (even though it’s in the minority)
His opinion literally holds the same weight as someone who make their own list and say Zest is the goat
Just have fun with it.
Thanks OP for taking the time to write these article and help kill some down time One can argue over inconsistencies in regards to the criteria within the logic the writer used. For example: a. When you say at one time that it was a super close call between Serral and Maru how - at the same time - can you say that IEM 2024 would not make a difference? Or put differently: How many more tournaments, in which both players are active, need to be played to tilt the scale in Serral's favor if IEM was not enough, but both are supposedly close in the GOAT debate? b. Then there is the argumentation of longevity versus peak performance. In MVP's article it is described that he placed above Innovation because he was so dominant, even if not for long. On the contrary in Maru's article, it is stated that Serral has higher peak performances but Maru is hailed for his "otherworldly longevity". If you want to stay consistent, you have to choose between one, but cannot switch based on the player you like better, as it seems to be the case here. Defining criteria is fine... but you have to stick to them, otherwise the whole endeavor is arbitrary. But I agree. It is one person's opinion. But that doesn't stop me from voicing mine either And I think the author raises valid points for Maru's GOAT status, don't get me wrong. It was also nice to dwell in nostalgia while reading through the well written essays. But it is also the case that one's reasoning when establishing such a list should be on point, otherwise the scent of arbitrary metrics is too strong. I, for example, looked at the following metrics to have people as GOAT contenders and only one of them had to be achieved to play a role in my further analysis: 1. Minimum 4 years of having a an over 60% win rate versus top Korean players (to accommodate for longevity) 2. Having won at least 10 Premier Tournaments (Also longevity but also the skill to persist and win) 3. Having at least won 2 World Championships (As the highest peak where the best of the world congregate) These metrics can be fulfilled by every player who plays a role internationally and they were the entrance point to my evaluation. I further looked (only against top Korean competition to prevent people from claiming that non Koreans had it easier) at longest winning streaks, peak win rates, amount of peak win rates, win records of top contenders versus top Koreans and versus each other. These win rates/streaks were adjusted (meaning I took the win rates versus Koreans and added the respective player's win rate versus Serral, as he was also compared to everyone else) to include the only non Korean player in the list, which is Serral. And the evaluation of the raw data was pretty obvious. By any standard metric that can be applied to every player who plays internationally, Serral is the best. - He is one of two players to achieve the Triple Crown twice (Only MVP achieved the same) - He has the highest win rate vs top Korean players in 5 years out of 13 StarCraft2 years (2018, 2019, 2020, 2022, 2023) - by far the most dominant - In three out of these years (2018, 2020, 2023) he achieved an over 85% (!!) match win rate vs Koreans. No other player ever came over 79%. Maru is 2nd at 78%, Serral 3rd at 76,76% and herO fourth with 74%. The win rates of Serral outperform those of Flash in his most dominant years. - In 2023 his game win rate is 73,24% making him the only player to ever break the 70% game win rate barrier... 2nd closest is Serral with 69,86% and Maru 3rd with 69,44%. - Serral holds the longest winning streak against top Koreans (19 consecutive wins 17th of May 2023 till 3rd of August 2023; 2nd place also Serral with 18 consecutive wins from 4th of August 2018 till 1st of May 2019) - Serral, among two others, won the most World Championships - Serral has the most Premier Tournaments wins with top Korean Participation (16) and he achieved this in 6 years, whereas it took Maru 10 years to accumulate 15, although GSL is 3 times per year. But the most amazing feat I encountered while analyzing the data: - Serral has NO negative win rate vs ANY pro player since his first Premier Tournament win in 2015 which he played on a regular basis (at least 10 games) - which no one else ever achieved. This stat is absolutely incredible and I cannot emphasize how much Serral distances the competition. But here are his stats versus the other contenders and other respected players: vs Maru: 14:4:2 vs Dark: 9:5:1 vs GuMiho: 10:4:0 vs Solar: 16:7:1 vs Cure: 17:3:0 vs ByuN: 12:5:0 vs Classic: 8:2:0 vs Bunny: 9:2:0 vs stats: 9:4:0 vs soO: 8:4:0 vs Innovation: 16:8:0 vs Rogue: 8:6:0 vs Trap: 14:3:0 vs Zest: 10:5:0 vs Reynor: 31:16:0 vs MaxPax: 18:4:0 vs Heromarine: 26:4:0 Now there are softer things that need consideration like eras, competition, impact, resilience to patches, etc and I think the author did a pretty fair job at evaluating these. But to me, it comes down to two things. First, Maru's inability to conquer the World Championship. Yes, he accomplished phenomenal feats in GSL, StarLeague and the other grand Korean Tournaments, but he never delivered when it everyone from around the world gathered. Second, the peak dominance. Serral's stats are simply nuts... his win rates, tournament wins and the time in which he did it (only 6 years) is absolutely terrifying and excels EVERY OTHER player on this list in EVERY aspect. And it is not like Serral never played the top contenders from the past. Zest, Innovation, stats, Trap, Cure, Solar, Dark, herO, Maru, Byun are all names that were also active in the peak era of 2013-2015 and that Serral faced multiple times. Plus there are players like Clem, Reynor, MaxPax that older players haven't faced so the argument goes both ways. Anyways, these are my two cents on this issue. Thank you for that. I have enphazied Serral's head 2 head win vs ALL in other posts. Its absurd. The only thing Maru has against Serral is basically having won 2 premiers in Korean soil prior to 2017. All the 7 GSLs simply dont count, cus Serral wanst there (when comparing just the 2 of them). You just cant say that Maru is greater in SCII than Serral, you just cant. Serrral graduated from School in june 2017... We know what came after. Completely agree. The sheer dominance of Serral's statistics doesn't even only put him only at first place in many metrics. For example he occupies 5 of the 13 StarCraft II years in win rates versus top Korean players (2018, 2019, 2020 and 2023) and all of them are as well the 5 highest win rates EVER achieved. I also never understood this whole "Serral never won GSL"-argument. Yes, we cannot know if Serral could have won a GSL for sure, it is a mere hypothetical according to his insane match win rates of sometimes over 85% versus the top Koreans. But what we know for a fact is, that Maru never won the World Championship despite trying several times. In my opinion it is crystal-clear that Serral would have easily conquered GSL and at the same time taken away trophies from other players who could now sport them. Or simply imagine Serral's dominance if he had the Korean infrastructure support. Team Houses, prize money, etc... How anyone is able to call someone other than him GOAT is simply not understandable for me. You can make fair points for many people, but Serral has it all: Longevity, peak performance, having played many of the best of the peak era, World Championship titles, Premier Tournaments titles with top Korean participation, win rates, winning streaks and all of that, DESPITE being non Korean.. there is literally nothing he lacks in comparison to other players.
The elephant in the room is just the competiveness of the scene. I know foreign casters don't want to acknowledge that because their job is to hype up the current scene but I think it's ridicolous to pretend that winning a tournament/dominating in 2024 when there are maybe 30 fulltime players and 5 championship contenders left and the majority of fellow Goat contenders are retired (Maru and Serral are the only ones left out of this top 10 list) is the same as when there were 150 fulltime players, 15 championship contenders left and they are practicing in teamhouses with coaches and analysts.
I saw a post on reddit that I resonated with (doesn't happen often, I know) that said the last great player was always bound to have the longest/most dominant run because he has to deal with the least amount of new talent, balance shakeups via patches and the competition would slowly fade out.
So yes, by the pure numbers Serral would probably be the undisputed Goat but I don't think you can ignore the circumstances when they are so blatantly in his favor compared to the other Goat contenders
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To all the math wizards out there, it seems there's one analysis missing (or at least I haven't come across it yet, although I have seen a condensed version of expected finals appearances). Perhaps one of you would like to take on this challenge?
Here's the TL;DR:
Given a certain winning probability, is it theoretically possible to never win a GSL based on mathematical probability calculations?
Explanation:
While there's a non-zero chance one could win the lottery ten times in a row, it's so incredibly slim that, for practical purposes, we consider it zero. So, if we consider Serral's win rate against Korean pros and the tournament format requiring a certain number of wins in each round, we can calculate a figure that might be insightful and settle the argument of "not having won a GSL."
Assumptions can be made about whether Serral's winning probability would increase or decrease if he were to compete in the GSL. One might argue it would decrease due to adjusting to a new living environment or opponents specifically training to counter him. Conversely, it could be argued it would increase because Serral might dedicate more time to training. Thus, by averaging these scenarios along with his win rate against Korean players, the expected number of ZvZ matches, and so forth, there's room for a statistical analysis.
By the way, big thanks to Mizenhauer for your hard work and the excellent reads. Premobeats and imData, thank you for your insightful analyses and crazy statistics too! Cheers, guys!
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On March 23 2024 16:32 goldensail wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2024 07:30 Poopi wrote:
The most crazy thing though imo is the 4 GSL in a row, that’s a crazy feat especially as early as 2018-2019 where Terran wasn’t particularly strong. The most done in a row was 2, which is already impressive given how cut throat GSL was back in the days. TY was almost able to do three in a row but he did 2 in a year which is already a good feat, and even then he was relatively lucky to do it in 2020 short after Zerg nerfs / lots of TvT his best match-up.
The fact that every group (even those that are not labeled as group of death) in the GSL could eliminate a WC / GSL champion, like it happened to Rogue and so many others (or Reynor after he won WC…), is what makes the 4 victories in a row incredible.
Not only that, but Maru had to clutch a 4-3 victory against TvT master TY (present in this GOAT list at a very respectable spot) in an epic finals to even do 3 in a row.
And his 4th in a row was also impressive, because Classic was just murdering terrans left and right in this period iirc, with like 16w-1l record in the matchup.
But watching him play Terran like Zerg was mesmerizing and remind you why he was called the Fourth Race.
ive never heard anyone call maru the fourth race. is this just completly made up?
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On March 23 2024 20:25 Comedy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2024 16:32 goldensail wrote:On March 23 2024 07:30 Poopi wrote:
The most crazy thing though imo is the 4 GSL in a row, that’s a crazy feat especially as early as 2018-2019 where Terran wasn’t particularly strong. The most done in a row was 2, which is already impressive given how cut throat GSL was back in the days. TY was almost able to do three in a row but he did 2 in a year which is already a good feat, and even then he was relatively lucky to do it in 2020 short after Zerg nerfs / lots of TvT his best match-up.
The fact that every group (even those that are not labeled as group of death) in the GSL could eliminate a WC / GSL champion, like it happened to Rogue and so many others (or Reynor after he won WC…), is what makes the 4 victories in a row incredible.
Not only that, but Maru had to clutch a 4-3 victory against TvT master TY (present in this GOAT list at a very respectable spot) in an epic finals to even do 3 in a row.
And his 4th in a row was also impressive, because Classic was just murdering terrans left and right in this period iirc, with like 16w-1l record in the matchup.
But watching him play Terran like Zerg was mesmerizing and remind you why he was called the Fourth Race. ive never heard anyone call maru the fourth race. is this just completly made up?
It's from back like 10 years ago when Terran was hardly present in GSL yet Maru would continue to put up decent performances.
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Russian Federation40186 Posts
On March 23 2024 20:25 Comedy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2024 16:32 goldensail wrote:On March 23 2024 07:30 Poopi wrote:
The most crazy thing though imo is the 4 GSL in a row, that’s a crazy feat especially as early as 2018-2019 where Terran wasn’t particularly strong. The most done in a row was 2, which is already impressive given how cut throat GSL was back in the days. TY was almost able to do three in a row but he did 2 in a year which is already a good feat, and even then he was relatively lucky to do it in 2020 short after Zerg nerfs / lots of TvT his best match-up.
The fact that every group (even those that are not labeled as group of death) in the GSL could eliminate a WC / GSL champion, like it happened to Rogue and so many others (or Reynor after he won WC…), is what makes the 4 victories in a row incredible.
Not only that, but Maru had to clutch a 4-3 victory against TvT master TY (present in this GOAT list at a very respectable spot) in an epic finals to even do 3 in a row.
And his 4th in a row was also impressive, because Classic was just murdering terrans left and right in this period iirc, with like 16w-1l record in the matchup.
But watching him play Terran like Zerg was mesmerizing and remind you why he was called the Fourth Race. ive never heard anyone call maru the fourth race. is this just completly made up?
That just says you have not been around at the peak of Korean SC2, because it was born around then since Maru's TvP ability on those ridiculous map pools really did not look like a TvP.
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United States1798 Posts
On March 23 2024 20:25 Comedy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2024 16:32 goldensail wrote:On March 23 2024 07:30 Poopi wrote:
The most crazy thing though imo is the 4 GSL in a row, that’s a crazy feat especially as early as 2018-2019 where Terran wasn’t particularly strong. The most done in a row was 2, which is already impressive given how cut throat GSL was back in the days. TY was almost able to do three in a row but he did 2 in a year which is already a good feat, and even then he was relatively lucky to do it in 2020 short after Zerg nerfs / lots of TvT his best match-up.
The fact that every group (even those that are not labeled as group of death) in the GSL could eliminate a WC / GSL champion, like it happened to Rogue and so many others (or Reynor after he won WC…), is what makes the 4 victories in a row incredible.
Not only that, but Maru had to clutch a 4-3 victory against TvT master TY (present in this GOAT list at a very respectable spot) in an epic finals to even do 3 in a row.
And his 4th in a row was also impressive, because Classic was just murdering terrans left and right in this period iirc, with like 16w-1l record in the matchup.
But watching him play Terran like Zerg was mesmerizing and remind you why he was called the Fourth Race. ive never heard anyone call maru the fourth race. is this just completly made up?
He got the nickname in 2014 because Terran was dogshit. It's because of this nickname and his success relative to other Terrans that SSL used the "Y the last man" as his image for Season 3 of SSL in 2015.
![[image loading]](https://tl.net/staff/Mizenhauer/maru_the_last_terran.jpg)
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On March 23 2024 20:31 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2024 20:25 Comedy wrote:On March 23 2024 16:32 goldensail wrote:On March 23 2024 07:30 Poopi wrote:
The most crazy thing though imo is the 4 GSL in a row, that’s a crazy feat especially as early as 2018-2019 where Terran wasn’t particularly strong. The most done in a row was 2, which is already impressive given how cut throat GSL was back in the days. TY was almost able to do three in a row but he did 2 in a year which is already a good feat, and even then he was relatively lucky to do it in 2020 short after Zerg nerfs / lots of TvT his best match-up.
The fact that every group (even those that are not labeled as group of death) in the GSL could eliminate a WC / GSL champion, like it happened to Rogue and so many others (or Reynor after he won WC…), is what makes the 4 victories in a row incredible.
Not only that, but Maru had to clutch a 4-3 victory against TvT master TY (present in this GOAT list at a very respectable spot) in an epic finals to even do 3 in a row.
And his 4th in a row was also impressive, because Classic was just murdering terrans left and right in this period iirc, with like 16w-1l record in the matchup.
But watching him play Terran like Zerg was mesmerizing and remind you why he was called the Fourth Race. ive never heard anyone call maru the fourth race. is this just completly made up? He got the nickname in 2014 because Terran was dogshit. It's because of this nickname and his success relative to other Terrans that SSL used the "Y the last man" as his image for Season 3 of SSL in 2015.
maru is called "Fourth Race". but what is Serral called? i think it starts with "go" and ends with " at". i just can't figure it out. maybe someone knows.
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On March 23 2024 20:31 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2024 20:25 Comedy wrote:On March 23 2024 16:32 goldensail wrote:On March 23 2024 07:30 Poopi wrote:
The most crazy thing though imo is the 4 GSL in a row, that’s a crazy feat especially as early as 2018-2019 where Terran wasn’t particularly strong. The most done in a row was 2, which is already impressive given how cut throat GSL was back in the days. TY was almost able to do three in a row but he did 2 in a year which is already a good feat, and even then he was relatively lucky to do it in 2020 short after Zerg nerfs / lots of TvT his best match-up.
The fact that every group (even those that are not labeled as group of death) in the GSL could eliminate a WC / GSL champion, like it happened to Rogue and so many others (or Reynor after he won WC…), is what makes the 4 victories in a row incredible.
Not only that, but Maru had to clutch a 4-3 victory against TvT master TY (present in this GOAT list at a very respectable spot) in an epic finals to even do 3 in a row.
And his 4th in a row was also impressive, because Classic was just murdering terrans left and right in this period iirc, with like 16w-1l record in the matchup.
But watching him play Terran like Zerg was mesmerizing and remind you why he was called the Fourth Race. ive never heard anyone call maru the fourth race. is this just completly made up? He got the nickname in 2014 because Terran was dogshit. It's because of this nickname and his success relative to other Terrans that SSL used the "Y the last man" as his image for Season 3 of SSL in 2015.
thanks. I was very active all of 2014 and 2015 and had never heard anyone call him that. Maybe just in the foreign scene we never called him that.
It's kind of weird though. Back in those days innovation was regarded as the best terran player. A large part of the reason why Terrans didn't place for a bit in 2014 might be because MMA, Polt, Taeja, Bomber, and Jjakji were all competing abroad.
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United States1798 Posts
On March 23 2024 21:23 jack_less wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2024 20:31 Mizenhauer wrote:On March 23 2024 20:25 Comedy wrote:On March 23 2024 16:32 goldensail wrote:On March 23 2024 07:30 Poopi wrote:
The most crazy thing though imo is the 4 GSL in a row, that’s a crazy feat especially as early as 2018-2019 where Terran wasn’t particularly strong. The most done in a row was 2, which is already impressive given how cut throat GSL was back in the days. TY was almost able to do three in a row but he did 2 in a year which is already a good feat, and even then he was relatively lucky to do it in 2020 short after Zerg nerfs / lots of TvT his best match-up.
The fact that every group (even those that are not labeled as group of death) in the GSL could eliminate a WC / GSL champion, like it happened to Rogue and so many others (or Reynor after he won WC…), is what makes the 4 victories in a row incredible.
Not only that, but Maru had to clutch a 4-3 victory against TvT master TY (present in this GOAT list at a very respectable spot) in an epic finals to even do 3 in a row.
And his 4th in a row was also impressive, because Classic was just murdering terrans left and right in this period iirc, with like 16w-1l record in the matchup.
But watching him play Terran like Zerg was mesmerizing and remind you why he was called the Fourth Race. ive never heard anyone call maru the fourth race. is this just completly made up? He got the nickname in 2014 because Terran was dogshit. It's because of this nickname and his success relative to other Terrans that SSL used the "Y the last man" as his image for Season 3 of SSL in 2015. maru is called "Fourth Race". but what is Serral called? i think it starts with "go" and ends with " at". i just can't figure it out. maybe someone knows.
Liquipedia lists the following monikers for Serral: The Finnisher, Finnish Phenom, The Night King and Lord of The Curcuit, all of which are demonstrably worse and less creative than the fourth race.
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On March 23 2024 21:56 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2024 21:23 jack_less wrote:On March 23 2024 20:31 Mizenhauer wrote:On March 23 2024 20:25 Comedy wrote:On March 23 2024 16:32 goldensail wrote:On March 23 2024 07:30 Poopi wrote:
The most crazy thing though imo is the 4 GSL in a row, that’s a crazy feat especially as early as 2018-2019 where Terran wasn’t particularly strong. The most done in a row was 2, which is already impressive given how cut throat GSL was back in the days. TY was almost able to do three in a row but he did 2 in a year which is already a good feat, and even then he was relatively lucky to do it in 2020 short after Zerg nerfs / lots of TvT his best match-up.
The fact that every group (even those that are not labeled as group of death) in the GSL could eliminate a WC / GSL champion, like it happened to Rogue and so many others (or Reynor after he won WC…), is what makes the 4 victories in a row incredible.
Not only that, but Maru had to clutch a 4-3 victory against TvT master TY (present in this GOAT list at a very respectable spot) in an epic finals to even do 3 in a row.
And his 4th in a row was also impressive, because Classic was just murdering terrans left and right in this period iirc, with like 16w-1l record in the matchup.
But watching him play Terran like Zerg was mesmerizing and remind you why he was called the Fourth Race. ive never heard anyone call maru the fourth race. is this just completly made up? He got the nickname in 2014 because Terran was dogshit. It's because of this nickname and his success relative to other Terrans that SSL used the "Y the last man" as his image for Season 3 of SSL in 2015. maru is called "Fourth Race". but what is Serral called? i think it starts with "go" and ends with " at". i just can't figure it out. maybe someone knows. Liquipedia lists the following monikers for Serral: The Finnisher, Finnish Phenom, The Night King and Lord of The Curcuit, all of which are demonstrably worse and less creative than the fourth race.
well specifically for creativity, it's just a ripoff of moon's nickname in wc3, The Fifth Race (He did a lot to earn the nickname - which is surprising anyone would call maru the 4th race in 2014)
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On March 23 2024 21:56 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2024 21:23 jack_less wrote:On March 23 2024 20:31 Mizenhauer wrote:On March 23 2024 20:25 Comedy wrote:On March 23 2024 16:32 goldensail wrote:On March 23 2024 07:30 Poopi wrote:
The most crazy thing though imo is the 4 GSL in a row, that’s a crazy feat especially as early as 2018-2019 where Terran wasn’t particularly strong. The most done in a row was 2, which is already impressive given how cut throat GSL was back in the days. TY was almost able to do three in a row but he did 2 in a year which is already a good feat, and even then he was relatively lucky to do it in 2020 short after Zerg nerfs / lots of TvT his best match-up.
The fact that every group (even those that are not labeled as group of death) in the GSL could eliminate a WC / GSL champion, like it happened to Rogue and so many others (or Reynor after he won WC…), is what makes the 4 victories in a row incredible.
Not only that, but Maru had to clutch a 4-3 victory against TvT master TY (present in this GOAT list at a very respectable spot) in an epic finals to even do 3 in a row.
And his 4th in a row was also impressive, because Classic was just murdering terrans left and right in this period iirc, with like 16w-1l record in the matchup.
But watching him play Terran like Zerg was mesmerizing and remind you why he was called the Fourth Race. ive never heard anyone call maru the fourth race. is this just completly made up? He got the nickname in 2014 because Terran was dogshit. It's because of this nickname and his success relative to other Terrans that SSL used the "Y the last man" as his image for Season 3 of SSL in 2015. maru is called "Fourth Race". but what is Serral called? i think it starts with "go" and ends with " at". i just can't figure it out. maybe someone knows. Liquipedia lists the following monikers for Serral: The Finnisher, Finnish Phenom, The Night King and Lord of The Curcuit, all of which are demonstrably worse and less creative than the fourth race.
Worse sure, but I gotta disagree with "less creative". Ripping off Moon's moniker is not creative.
Shades of Casy the "Neo-Emperor" right there.
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On March 23 2024 21:56 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2024 21:23 jack_less wrote:On March 23 2024 20:31 Mizenhauer wrote:On March 23 2024 20:25 Comedy wrote:On March 23 2024 16:32 goldensail wrote:On March 23 2024 07:30 Poopi wrote:
The most crazy thing though imo is the 4 GSL in a row, that’s a crazy feat especially as early as 2018-2019 where Terran wasn’t particularly strong. The most done in a row was 2, which is already impressive given how cut throat GSL was back in the days. TY was almost able to do three in a row but he did 2 in a year which is already a good feat, and even then he was relatively lucky to do it in 2020 short after Zerg nerfs / lots of TvT his best match-up.
The fact that every group (even those that are not labeled as group of death) in the GSL could eliminate a WC / GSL champion, like it happened to Rogue and so many others (or Reynor after he won WC…), is what makes the 4 victories in a row incredible.
Not only that, but Maru had to clutch a 4-3 victory against TvT master TY (present in this GOAT list at a very respectable spot) in an epic finals to even do 3 in a row.
And his 4th in a row was also impressive, because Classic was just murdering terrans left and right in this period iirc, with like 16w-1l record in the matchup.
But watching him play Terran like Zerg was mesmerizing and remind you why he was called the Fourth Race. ive never heard anyone call maru the fourth race. is this just completly made up? He got the nickname in 2014 because Terran was dogshit. It's because of this nickname and his success relative to other Terrans that SSL used the "Y the last man" as his image for Season 3 of SSL in 2015. maru is called "Fourth Race". but what is Serral called? i think it starts with "go" and ends with " at". i just can't figure it out. maybe someone knows. Liquipedia lists the following monikers for Serral: The Finnisher, Finnish Phenom, The Night King and Lord of The Curcuit, all of which are demonstrably worse and less creative than the fourth race.
"The Night King" is fitting, creative and actually lines up with previous famous nicknames like "The Emperor" (BoxeR), "The Tyrant" (Jaedong) or simply "God" (Flash). Though sure, no one will ever be able to beat "The Creator Of All Things" (NesTea).
"The Fourth Race" is just a poor switch-up from Moon, who actually deserved his nickname "The Fifth Race" because of the way he played his certainly not weak race in WC3.
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EPT
